7 ms·

I have no skin in the game, but even I am starting to think the obvious thing here: Apple and Google own the entire mobile OS market. They could literally dest

• froggit 3y ago
  >Have they just become content to be an old corporate software house who only manages to keep users through dark patterns and anti-competitive behaviour because they have given up on making products which people enjoy to use? Change that from a question to a statement and it becomes one of the better single sentence summaries of the windows 11 design methodology.
• 3np 3y ago
  Not to give Microsoft an out here but really? The equivalent for this on iOS or Android would be allowing opening links in a different browser and web view engine. The equivalent Microsoft apps on mobile OSs aren't degraded - they aren't even allowed to exist in the first place. Microsoft is bringing the desktop experience in line with mobile here. Doesn't make it less terrible but contrasting Apple and Google as better actors in this sense is an odd take.
  • IceWreck 3y ago
    Microsoft apps exist on Android and they're not forced to open links in Chrome on Android. If the user chooses, they can open on Microsoft Edge on Android. The user can set their own browser preference - and Google doesn't force them. Apple doesn't allow other browser engines but it's on them. None of these bug tech corps are in the right here, but MS is being more anti-competitive than most.
    • passwordoops 3y ago
      I know I'm comparing a turd sandwich to a puke pancake here, but in what way is "Apple doesn't allow other browser engines" less anti-competitive than what MS is doing?
      • mrpopo 3y ago
        For Apple, the wall around the garden is so high that you don't realize there is an outside in the first place. So no one notices it.
      • IceWreck 3y ago
        Never said it wasn't, thats why I used Android's example and then also called out Apple.
    • nequo 3y ago
      Edge and Chrome use the same engine, don’t they? So the correct iOS parallel is not Apple’s refusal to allow non-WebKit engines. But Apple’s hypothetical refusal to allow links to be opened in WebKit-flavored Firefox. Which, for the record, it does let you do.
      • dahauns 3y ago
        >Edge and Chrome use the same engine, don’t they? To be precise: No, they don't. Their engines are based on the same codebase, but they still are running their own installed engines. In contrast, Apple doesn't just refuse to allow non-WebKit engines. It requires everyone to use the pre-installed, Apple-provided engine. You can't use your own build of WebKit.
    • aitchnyu 3y ago
      Umm, MS Teams on Adroid forced me to install Edge to open links. Even the copy action pushes "haha, we wont give away this link you moron" (in corp speak) to the clipboard.
      • IceWreck 3y ago
  • Macha 3y ago
    The equivalent apps on iOS aren't even allowed, Android allows other browsers (including their browser engines) just fine. Firefox is the only browser to bother though, as most of the chromium wrappers, including edge for android, are happy to just build a skin around the default web view.
  • jamespo 3y ago
    What web view engine? MS are using chromium
    • croes 3y ago
      On iOS?
      • jamespo 3y ago
        I thought the argument was they were against using someone else's rendering engine?
  • tpm 3y ago
    Android allows this. Links from the gmail app open in Firefox in my Android phone.
  • snovv_crash 3y ago
    On Android I can install Firefox and have all browser activities forwarded there, even from GMail, and even for opening YouTube links.
  • vetinari 3y ago
    > The equivalent for this on iOS or Android would be allowing opening links in a different browser and web view engine. In Android, all my links open in Firefox. I don't see any issue there. Might serve as an inspiration to Microsoft ;)
    • maccard 3y ago
      I have that setting set, and various links still open in chrome instead of firefox for me. In particular, links that are opened via gmail, maps or the "google" search widget.
      • vetinari 3y ago
        Maps open links in Firefox for me; Gmail by default in-process with webview, but that is disable-able in settings and then it opens links in the default browser. For the google search widget, I don't use it, but after a quick check yes, it does use webview too, but also has the option to open in browser. I've not seen anything opening in Chrome for years, if ever.
        • maccard 3y ago
          > I've not seen anything opening in Chrome for years, if ever. Except for the things that you just said open in the chrome webview, right?
          • vetinari 3y ago
            It is not chrome webview. It is android webview. Yes, it is similar to chrome engine, but it is not chrome. Just like edge is not chrome. It is also per-app choice. If an app decides doing something in a particular way, it is not the system's fault -- some reddit readers do the same, for some reason. For now, apps do have preferences to open in browser instead, and that option respects the default one.
• wslh 3y ago
  Microsoft has been playing the vendor lock-in game for his entire life and they were and are very successful. It is an interesting exercise to think if this time is different. Again, Microsoft always compete with better technologies from other vendors. One aggresive move that Google or Apple could do is to really help companies in the migration to their technology beyond saying RTFM and use our support. For example, augmenting these locked companies with Google staff. You cannot expect a big corporation to move all the gears alone to change their technology. It is not the technology, it is the business execution.
  • sseagull 3y ago
    Virginia Tech recently notified everyone that they are ditching Gmail in favor of outlook because of large cost increases coming. Google seems to be going backward in that regard: “ A key factor in the decision was cost. Under the new Google license model, an equivalent amount of Google cloud storage would cost more than seven times what it will cost the university on the Microsoft platform.” https://vtx.vt.edu/articles/2023/04/google-changes-announcement.html https://vtx.vt.edu/articles/2023/04/google-changes-announcem...
• seydor 3y ago
  They don't because they can't. People use ms programs for their daily work , phones are secondary. And how is ms degrading googls products? They don't even have a mandatory app store in windows. When comparing them all, ms has been the most open one
  • dustedcodes 3y ago
    I think people care more about their phones than wether they use Goole docs or Word to put together a report at work which nobody is really going to read and if they do they'll ask for a PDF print out anyway and not the document itself. Same for other products. If OneDrive or MS Teams was all of a sudden really annoying to use on iOS and Android, but Slack and Google Meet would work really reliably and smoothly then I think a lot of people would just starting to use the non Microsoft alternative because nobody likes to deal with annoyances on a daily basis. We have seen this already, when Zoom came about it captured a huge part of the market really rapidly because it did something so much better than Teams did before. It didn't even require a dark pattern, now imagine how many more would have left Teams if dark patterns would have helped on top of that.
    • Xeamek 3y ago
      You massively underestimate how much business world (corporate especially) depends on MS Office and how deeply integrated it is into companies eco systems.
      • wongarsu 3y ago
        And how little they can care about user experience if something ticks all other boxes.
  • petesergeant 3y ago
    > They don't because they can't. People use ms programs for their daily work, phones are secondary. I suspect many, many more people globally (and in the US) use a smartphone than use a desktop with MS products on it daily.
• bearmode 3y ago
  Anti-competitive behaviour runs deep in Microsoft. They've been doing it since their early days.
  • marginalia_nu 3y ago
    Lest we forget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code
  • peoplefromibiza 3y ago
    > Anti-competitive behaviour runs deep in ~~Microsoft~~ rampant capitalism, especially in the US of A the end goal is always to become a monopolist
    • marginalia_nu 3y ago
      Well on paper at least, the US has antitrust laws going back to the Sherman Act and Standard Oil. Microsoft was basically inches away from being broken up in the late '90s due to their anti-competitive practices.
      • sleepybrett 3y ago
        They absolutely should have been and if they were we probably wouldn't have the amazon or google we have today.
      • justinclift 3y ago
        I'm kind of hoping the EU decides to pick MS up on this, with a 2nd go around of "abusing their monopoly on the desktop". Maybe this time they'll break MS into small pieces. :)
      • peoplefromibiza 3y ago
        > Well on paper at least, the US has antitrust laws going back to the Sherman Act and Standard Oil. That's my point. China got their "Antimonopoly law" in 2007.
• modo_mario 3y ago
  >Have they just become Were they ever different tho? I know a lot of people believed the 'MS loves open source' and similar stuff but it always felt like bait to me. They still tried to force trough their shitty open document format, still regularly pull layers of small anticompetitive stuff. Small changes that aren't outrageous enough on their own to cause a reaction or throw out the trust they try to create but enough for me to be consistently reminded that generally their incentives and goals run counter to what I'd prefer.
  • em-bee 3y ago
    my understanding is that within microsoft there are different factions competing with each other for i don't know what, dominance maybe. it kind of makes sense since microsoft has several different strong products that can stand on their own (unlike google whose main income is from advertising so really all google products subsume to that), and some of these factions may well genuinely love FOSS.
    • ourmandave 3y ago
      They're FOSS friendly because they don't have a choice. They have to support linux on Azure, so they're all in. Meaning they're joining boards and steering committees, becoming platinum level donors, and buying github that hosts a lot of open projects.
    • Stratoscope 3y ago
      You may enjoy these org charts: https://web.archive.org/web/20110701051217/http://www.bonkersworld.net/2011/06/27/organizational-charts/ https://web.archive.org/web/20110701051217/http://www.bonker...
  • hdjjhhvvhga 3y ago
    > Were they ever different tho? According to many people on HN, they changed completely, and they have nothing to do with the old epoch of Ballmer and Gates. Yet, I was never convinced by the "but they embrace open source now" argument: * their financing of SCO in the "Linux is illegal" ridiculous attempt to discredit their competition that took over a decade * the contempt for their users in various ways, from gray patterns with local vs MS accounts to ads in the start menu and other spyware with settings that reset after random upgrades to "defaults" convenient only for MS * if they profess so much love for Linux and spend so much on kernel development (actually, that's mostly for Hyper-V etc.), why they don't do one simple thing and recognize Linux as a Desktop OS that you can install along Windows? Instead, in 2023 you have to still install Windows first to avoid problems. Linux doesn't have this problem and will recognize an existing Windows installation and will even add it to its boot menu. Plus one million other tricks they played that shows the changes are just superficial. *
• 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  > I don't get Microsoft, have they no pride or desire to become a great company? That might be their problem. They are a great company. Where do they go from there?
• golemotron 3y ago
  The big difference is that Google and Apple are largely in the consumer space. MS, with Teams, is in the enterprise space where user experience isn't part of the buy decision.
  • dustedcodes 3y ago
    If CEOs, CTOs, CFOs all start having annoying issues with Teams, Office, Azure, etc. on their MacBooks and iPhones then you can bet your right arm on it that it will affect corporate buying decisions. Zoom demonstrated really well how quickly companies were to switch their conferencing software if one worked consistently better than another.
    • GartzenDeHaes 3y ago
      Things can change fast when executives start complaining about the software the IT department is making them use.
    • golemotron 3y ago
      I think Teams would be much better if that was the dynamic.
      • esafak 3y ago
        Executives don't use chat; they use email. And their secretaries manage it for them.
• toyg 3y ago
  Microsoft is actually the one reacting here. They were effectively forced to let the web be an open field by antitrust cases; Apple and Google took advantage of that to build two walled gardens, which ended up dwarfing MS's own empire. It was inevitable that, sooner or later, MS would have gone "If this behaviour is now allowed, why should we not do it too?" This is just the result of normalizing monopolistic practices in the mobile world over 15 years. You can thank Apple and Google for that. If you want something different, call your representatives and ask them to let the hammer fall on all 3.
  • gowld 3y ago
    MS built a walled mobile garden too. Nobody bought into it.
  • AraceliHarker 3y ago
    Simply put, people don't love Edge as much as they love Chrome. The browser bundled with Windows 11 is naturally Edge, but users who use Chrome install Chrome of their own volition, so forcing them to open links in Edge is extremely annoying.
    • wkat4242 3y ago
      I don't use either chrome or edge but why would I use a clone instead of the real thing? I never understood why Microsoft thought cloning chrome was a good thing for adoption. Edge is just chrome now but with some annoying bloat like the coupon pop-ups and pay later scams.
      • halflings 3y ago
        > why would I use a clone instead of the real thing Has nothing to do with why people don't use Edge (they still didn't use Edge when it was using a custom engine; same for IE before it). And it's only the techy minority that even knows Edge is built on top of Chromium.
      • criddell 3y ago
        > I never understood why Microsoft thought cloning chrome was a good thing for adoption. It’s all about Electron. There may be a Microsoft contingent that thinks it’s the future or maybe they are just hedging, but for now it’s important for stuff like Teams.
• Xeamek 3y ago
  Google doesn't have nearly as much control over android as microsoft has over windows.
• masklinn 3y ago
  > Apple and Google own the entire mobile OS market. They could literally destroy Microsoft if they started to hugely degrade the experience of Microsoft products on iOS and Android with dark patterns a la Microsoft. But they don't. They could not, because if they did that cartel suits would be opened within hours. I expect both the US and Europe have such suits ready to go just in case, and Microsoft (hypocritically) has amicus briefs on standby.
  • 0x457 3y ago
    Google literally forced MS to fork Chrome by degrading the experience.
• datadeft 3y ago
  > Microsoft needs to think hard how hostile they want to be to its competitors The last 30 years of MS shows that they are not interested in the non-hostile approach Few things: - Microsoft Java Virtual Machine scandal - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....
  • giancarlostoro 3y ago
    The precursor to .NET being born. :)
    • pjmlp 3y ago
      .NET events, P/Invoke and Forms were born as J++ events, J/Direct and WFC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_Foundation_Classes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_Foundation_Classes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_J%2B%2B#The_WFC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_J%2B%2B#The_WFC
• Traubenfuchs 3y ago
  "forced Candy Crush ad tiles in the start menu" is all the answer you need to your questions. I wonder how much money this shameful bottom of the barrel company behaviour makes them.
  • rightbyte 3y ago
    It probably decreases revenue. Like the Edge "enagement" manipulation with Teams. Are there managers who has their pay tied to some KPI? I have such a hard time believing there is a from above decision to do all these user hostile changes turning their main product into a BS joke.
• croes 3y ago
  Didn't Google kill non-Chromium Edge with changes on YouTube?
• bitcharmer 3y ago
  This is what happens when good engineering principles get replaced by greedy MBAs and chasing shareholder value
  • marcosdumay 3y ago
    Well, it's more likely that it's because the greedy MBAs are unable to chase shareholder value, so they just pushed down the task into fiefdom leaders. I mean, it's Edge that they are work so hard to push. What do they actually gain from doing that? It's stupid all the way down.
    • coffeeling 3y ago
      Bing adoption. Microsoft wants to get a bigger piece of the ad pie, and they hired a former Yandex exec to run it if I'm not mistaken.
• criley2 3y ago
  > old corporate software house who only manages to keep users through dark patterns and anti-competitive behaviour because they have given up on making products which people enjoy to use? I feel like you lost the plot here. Microsoft fiddling with browser settings is nothing compared to something like Apple forcing a walled garden App Store, to create a fully captured market they can brutally take advantage of. Even today, Apple has banned all browser competition on iOS, and only Safari is allowed to run. All competitors must just re-skin Safari to obey the monopolistic demands of Apple. Imagine if Microsoft banned all browsers except Edge! It would be an outrage! But we all accept that Apple does that and has for 10+ years. Perhaps we are all so used to the daily monopolistic and anti-competitive behavior of Apple that we do not care any more. But Microsoft, to me, barely has a drop of the anti-competitive evil of its competitors. Apple mints hundreds of billions by banning competitors, locking them out and charging 30% rent on their monopoly. Microsoft... just wants their re-skinned Google Browser to not die.
  • vetinari 3y ago
    > Imagine if Microsoft banned all browsers except Edge! It would be an outrage! But we all accept that Apple does that and has for 10+ years. They tried; with different means, but they expected the same result. That's what the antitrust case was about. > Perhaps we are all so used to the daily monopolistic and anti-competitive behavior of Apple that we do not care any more. While I have the same opinion as you wrt Apple behaviour, there is a difference: Apple doesn't have the market position like Microsoft did. You can function perfectly fine in society without any Apple product. That was not the case with Microsoft, they did everything they could so you had to use Microsoft system. Communicating with your bank or with government or public offices? Microsoft products were required. Apple has not such grip on the market and that makes the difference.
  • faeriechangling 3y ago
    One could argue that offering a walled garden from the outset is more honest than the Microsoft strategy of Embrace, Extend, Extinguish and ultimately the latter creates more of a monopolistic threat in practice since walled gardens almost definitionally can't capture most of the market.
• fredgrott 3y ago
  Not entirely a correct narrative as both Edge, Safari and Chrome have had their own private link protocols embedded in their own browser products involving other dark patterns.
• wkat4242 3y ago
  Apple and Google own the mobile market together. There's not one player that owns almost all of it like that did with Windows (and still do really). One is a healthy market, the other is not. And Android respects browser choice, iOS will soon be forced to in the EU with the new sideloading mandate.
  • rhamzeh 3y ago
    Both monopolies and duopolies are unhealthy, the only reason they're acting better in Europe because, as you said, they are being forced to.
• capableweb 3y ago
  > Microsoft needs to think hard how hostile they want to be to its competitors and users, because two people can play this game. I don't get Microsoft, have they no pride or desire to become a great company? Have they just become content to be an old corporate software house who only manages to keep users through dark patterns and anti-competitive behaviour because they have given up on making products which people enjoy to use? You're talking about this like Microsoft ever did anything differently than what you wrote? Since when have they focused 100% on just building great products and competing fairly? Microsoft has a loooong history of the behavior they still have, nothing is new here. Forcing people to use Microsoft EdgeXplorer? They been doing this since the very creation of their own browser. Don't act all surprised when a company who have been acting one way, continues to act that very way still.
  • LeifCarrotson 3y ago
    > You're talking about this like Microsoft ever did anything differently than what you wrote? Since when have they focused 100% on just building great products and competing fairly? They did a wonderful job with C# and .NET Core. But you need to remember your org charts; the Edge and Windows 11 decision-makers are not the same people with the same incentives.
    • capableweb 3y ago
      > They did a wonderful job with C# and .NET Core. Ah yes, the ecosystems where features such as hot reloading would only be in paid offers unless the ecosystem didn't start to shout at them when their plans changed from "of course it's free" to "sorry, paid customers only". > But you need to remember your org charts; the Edge and Windows 11 decision-makers are not the same people with the same incentives. I couldn't care less about their org charts. That's just a way for employees to feel better about what their colleagues are doing, "but that's not what I do at the company, I'm doing great stuff". Just like Googlers trying to convince themselves they're doing great stuff for the world because they happen to hack on FOSS stuff while their colleagues spend most of their days optimizing ads and siphoning as much data as they can from their users.
• dismalpedigree 3y ago
  Apple controls the browser on iOS with an iron fist. Even if you are using a different app, its still Safari under the hood. And even though they control the rendering, they still open all links from Apple apps in Safari. Oh and music. I use an alternative to Apple music because I choose to. That doesn’t stop Apple music from being the auto play choice even when I don’t use Apple Music. If Apple’s products are so much better they should allow choice and bot be threatened by it.
  • GeneralMaximus 3y ago
    If you don't use Apple Music at all, you can uninstall it from your phone and it will stop being the default choice. I do this on my phone without any problems.
    • capableweb 3y ago
      I don't have an extensive list, but Apple preferring their own apps on iOS is not hyperbole and evident in lots of places. Two examples: In "Find My" their is a "navigate" button for your various things, this will always use Apple Maps instead of giving you the choice. Same with the tapping the "address" field in your contacts list. And if you don't have Apple Maps installed, does it give you any options? No, instead it'll ask you if you want to install Apple Maps...
      • manuelabeledo 3y ago
        I may be wrong, but audio types are standardized, while geo or map ones are not. Meaning that it wouldn’t be much of an issue to open an audio file with anything that isn’t Apple Music, but FindMy would need to support a myriad of map app formats to work as intended.
        • detaro 3y ago
          URL types for geo locations are standardized. And even if they weren't or the standard isn't sufficient (which one could reasonably argue), you are talking about features made by the platform owner. Apple can trivially declare "this is the iOS geo share format, apps intending to share or handle shared geolocations should use this format" and expect the ecosystem to deal with it.
• pjmlp 3y ago
  They surely do, one of the reasons why Windows Phone failed to gain adoption was how Google blocked access to their apps from Windows Phone.
  • manuelabeledo 3y ago
    But they didn’t. There were PWAs of the most popular Google products that worked just fine in Windows Phone. Microsoft didn’t do the same with theirs. Outlook didn’t get an Android version until late 2015, Edge took a few years to arrive, and Bing Maps never made it.
    • vel0city 3y ago
      Google did user agent detection and would actively redirect Windows Phone users to degraded experience versions of things like YouTube and Maps even if the full versions would work fine.
      • manuelabeledo 3y ago
        > ... even if the full versions would work fine That's quite a statement, given that Internet Explorer didn't support WebGL, nor rich HTML5 video reproduction, until 2014 [0]. They are needed for the full versions of Google Maps and YouTube, respectively. Microsoft did create a YouTube app, but it filtered out video ads, which didn't sit quite well with Google [1] It looks to me that the pain was self inflicted. [0] https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/windows-phone-8-1-features-leaked-by-developer/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/tech-industry/windows-phone-8-1-fe... [1] http://allaboutwindowsphone.com/features/item/24422_ThestateofYouTubeonWindows10Mo.php http://allaboutwindowsphone.com/features/item/24422_Thestate...
        • vel0city 3y ago
          I'm speaking from my own experiences. Proxying the requests to rewrite the user agent, the full mobile version of YouTube and Maps worked properly. Without rewriting the user agent I would be redirected to the minimal versions of the websites which had poor experiences.
• dahauns 3y ago
  >They could literally destroy Microsoft if they started to hugely degrade the experience of Microsoft products on iOS and Android with dark patterns a la Microsoft. Sorry, but Google really isn't a saint regarding degraded experience. The shenanigans around UX for example using Google services in Firefox have a long, well documented tradition. They just aren't as overt and clumsy with it as MS.
  • mrpopo 3y ago
    Apple blocking iPhone browsers without Webkit (excluding Chrome and Firefox). Android not exactly making it easy to change the default browser for average users either tbh Relevant XKCD https://xkcd.com/1118/ https://xkcd.com/1118/
    • dathinab 3y ago
      yes on phones this has tradition to a point it started to got legislation involved but on desktop legislation shut this down, or at least tried, and it wasn't a problem for years honestly we need a proper "fair platform" legislation, world wide and focus more on power abuse and free market damaging power dynamics instead of obsessing over the "mono" in monopoly (because with today markets you can have more power then a classical single market monopoly while not being a monopol or even duopoly in any of the many markets you cover, power you can even more efficiently abuse then a monopoly when adding new market to your portfolio...)
    • refulgentis 3y ago
      XKCD isn’t relevant to the sentence before, as comic notes, it’s about Apple. the “Android makes you tap something to change your default browser!” was some FUD that either Brave/DDG stopped spreading because it was generating backlash. Much like the “you have to confirm you enable sideloading!” alert in Android, it’s not clear what people want otherwise, a confirmation isn’t the same thing as making it difficult. I wish these things would pass simply because it makes it harder to have the real conversations needed to get things back on track
      • 3y ago
• maccard 3y ago
  > They could literally destroy Microsoft if they started to hugely degrade the experience of Microsoft products on iOS and Android with dark patterns a la Microsoft. But they don't. I disagree here. Despite me using firefox on my android device and it being set to my default browser, many apps will still open in chrome (usually google apps - maps, gmail, etc) despite me explicitly asking it _not_ to do that. It's also not clear that it's using chrome, as it's the "generic" browser modal. The way that google services are bundled together on android and have limited interop (Samsung and Google Pay regularly fight with each other on my device for "who is the default payment method", and google is _not_ happy to not be my default). Google have been pushing manifest v3 despite massive objections, introducing undocumented "fair usage" limits [0], require third party cookies to use some of their services to download files (gmail, gdrive). Google are drowning in dark patterns. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35329135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35329135
  • hyperdimension 3y ago
    Not OP and unsure what happened to that link, but: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35329135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35329135
    • maccard 3y ago
      Thanks, I botched pasting it.
  • aembleton 3y ago
    Links from Google maps and Gmail open in Firefox for me. I'm on android 13.
• jgerrish 3y ago
  Microsoft make a ton of products that are still great to use. Microsoft Flight Sim? No jokes, it's just good fun from what I hear. Their Visual Whatever IDEs? They built that by creating great things like the LSP. And they aren't the only ones engaged in exploiting these kind of walled garden incentive mechanism. I mentioned before, it feels like we're being herded to Mastodon with the Twitter drama. This feels like being herded to a different OS. Perhaps ome new brilliant one. But how we get there, the journey, matters. Of course, that's crazy talk, Microsoft would never do that. Why would they chase away customers. So I'll just end that silly argument before it inches into a snowball dragging me towards a troll state. But it doesn't feel good. It turns my love of programming into something else. And I see that happening with other things I love too.
  • jgerrish 3y ago
    Sorry, just to add: Those new OSes and new languages and the entire growing ecosystem of computer engineering may be beautiful. And this statement can be viewed as throwing out the baby with the bathwater. But it's important recognizing the mechanisms and patterns. And recognizing that managing it differently may lead to different outcomes afterwards.
• melling 3y ago
  “Microsoft needs to think hard how hostile they want to be to its competitors” They did decades ago in the last century. Embrace, extend, extinguish. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extingu...
• code_runner 3y ago
  Microsoft’s stock price over the last 10 years has soared consistently. They have a lot of admins at small/medium companies very very willfully and loyally locked in to their ecosystem. Microsoft does not care if they piss off most of these people because they not the ones signing the contracts and the lock-in is SO BAD that even if they piss off the right people, making any change is way more trouble than they are willing to deal with. There is an entire side of the tech industry with admins who only want to learn powershell and still think you can’t “lock down” Linux and mac machines.
  • 0x457 3y ago
    I would replace "learn powershell" with "click buttons in some wizard". I have rarely seen IT person that wants to "learn" something new or automate some process.
    • code_runner 3y ago
      I've been fortunate enough work with some people who REALLY wanted to automate and do things "right" but believed so whole heartedly in microsoft they anticipated every powershell release.... But I've seen more of the "click button in some wizard"
• lelanthran 3y ago
  > They could literally destroy Microsoft if they started to hugely degrade the experience of Microsoft products on iOS and Android with dark patterns a la Microsoft How? I mean, how does a degraded experience on android cause people to abandon windows desktops? I just don't see the connection here: if Google, tomorrow, outright rejected any MSFT software on android phones, how does it hurt windows desktop deployment numbers? Maybe if everyone switched to Mac, but that would kill of android too... This is what a working monopoly looks like. We've seen before this exactly how much crap users would put up with on the desktop, and still they didn't abandon windows. There is nothing the mobile market can do that they haven't already tried to take windows market share. In fact, there is nothing that the mobile world can do to Windows users that is worse than what Microsoft did to them, and yet those users are still chugging along happily paying for Windows every year.
• pwillia7 3y ago
  Probably inherent because they'll fire you if you don't perform so you put dark patterns in or you get cut. I know they quit the official stack ranking... but I wonder
• DrThunder 3y ago
  How could they destroy MS? The majority of MS's market is enterprise stuff.
• NikolaNovak 3y ago
  I disagree with your premise. I have an iPhone (forced upon me by work) and it's ridiculous how many links still try to open in safari or Apple maps. I've tried to configure it for years and I've literally uninstalled Apple maps, but half the time iPhone keeps wanting me to reinstall it when I click a link or address. And a lot of url links open in safari instead of chrome or Firefox. Same with many other things - I can install whatever browser I want as long as it's a skin on their browser. I can install any keyboard I want as long as it's just a skin on their keyboard. I can install any app I want as long as it comes from Apple store. Etc etc etc. Yep, I vehemently disagree with your premise :). I think MS is looking at Apple's walled garden and saying "what if we could get away with some of that?" (not disagreeing that dark patterns are despicable! My wife knows the scream that comes from my home office when I try to get iPhone or windows to do something I want! I just disagree that mobile os world is some paragon of user centric benevolence :)
  • hunter2_ 3y ago
    > when I click a link or address A link to what domain? For clicking addresses, I kind of get it: the author of the text didn't link it at all, so the OS (or whatever) gets to decide how to enhance the presentation which can include promoting a specific app. Not great, but fine. For clicking links, it should definitely just use the browser unless an installed app's manifest has the domain registered.
  • eddieroger 3y ago
    Apple doesn't make it easy, but they don't make it impossible either, and at this point it's on the ecosystem to show Apple they want more of this by embracing what they have. So, sure, map links tend to open Apple Maps by default, but they can offer the user the choice to use other mapping apps, which they can check for by seeing if the OS will respond to their open url scheme. Harder? Sure. Impossible? Nope. And for what it's worth, open a directions link from Google some time - for me, it opens Google Maps, which I do have installed, but don't prefer using. I choose Apple Maps because I'd rather have Watch notifications while I drive, but Google doesn't offer me that choice.
    • 3y ago
• varelse 3y ago
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• happythebob 3y ago
  I can't believe this is the top comment on hacker news. Some of the replies are already covered but as much as I use my Android phone and Microsoft at work, I have never had anything other than Outlook 365 on Android. How is Google going to "literally destroy Microsoft"? And then there's no need to comment on the Apple portion in your comment, considering the critique is that Microsoft isn't playing nice because they try to default to Edge.
• chakintosh 3y ago
  They aren't doing that not for the goodness of their hearts, but because Microsoft has them by the cojones when it comes to anything related to Cloud, OS used by millions of Android devs and productivity tools.
• anaganisk 3y ago
  Didn't Google intentionally break YouTube on IE to make users move to chrome?
• stcroixx 3y ago
  You must be young. Welcome to the real Microsoft. Now that you've seen it for yourself, don't fall for their tricks again.
• hannob 3y ago
  > Have they just become content to be an old corporate software house who only manages to keep users through dark patterns and anti-competitive behaviour because they have given up on making products which people enjoy to use? I mean... yes. But that happened in the late 90s. Hasn't changed since then.
• TheRealDunkirk 3y ago
  The entire crux of any discussion on Microsoft's behaviors hinges on one figure: What percentage of their Windows and Office revenues are coming from end users versus corporate sales? I mean, I think it's kind of obvious, but yet we still have arguments about why they would screw users with these sorts of decisions. It makes no sense to me. Further, (and deference to Tom Warren), but I would bet that a lot more IT admins are happy with this change than there are those who are angry.
• charles_f 3y ago
  > But they don't. What are you talking about? The only browser on iOS is safari, the only app store is the Apple app store. They prevent you from collecting any sort of payment without passing through their 30% fee "because we can". How is that any better?
• dbg31415 3y ago
  > Microsoft needs to think hard how hostile they want to be to its competitors and users, because two people can play this game. I think this is already happening. Google pushes non-stop for you to use the Gmail app, then once you do all the links prompt you to open Google Maps, and all the rest. It's annoying and there's no way to change it. I think Microsoft is just taking a step out of Google's playbook here. Doing exactly what Google does on mobile, but doing that same shitty behavior on desktops. "If you made the choice to use a Microsoft app, you're making the choice to be in the Microsoft ecosystem." I hate it, it's trash, all the rest... but it feels like -- shocking -- Microsoft is just copying something they saw someone else doing.
• bob1029 3y ago
  > They could literally destroy Microsoft if they started to hugely degrade the experience of Microsoft products on iOS and Android with dark patterns a la Microsoft. I have been investing in MSFT under the assumption that they have completely abandoned these markets. What mobile market does Microsoft require when they have an increasing number of SMBs locked entirely into their death star? > given up on making products which people enjoy to use Building new apps in with .NET/Azure/GitHub is a dream. The laser focus of the tech community on principled Windows OS issues and other product concerns is completely missing the overarching universe that is being forged by Microsoft. Azure in 2023 is like Disneyland for a SMB CTO/CIO. If you go all-in you can actually enjoy your weekends and auditors can't really figure out how to ruin your free time as much as they used to be able to. Sure, there are specific technological or economic things that might be better on-prem (or in a different cloud), but overall I have never seen something this unified, stable, confidence-inspiring, etc. I believe that the first cloud which can be largely delegated out to non-wizards is going to be the one that wipes the floor with the others. I suspect Microsoft is already hard at work integrating the LLM features they acquired into their Azure administration use cases. Simply having a bot integrated into the portal that can provide suggested configurations in a few hotspots (e.g. make a VM like XYZ but with ABC changes) would be incredible.
• KETpXDDzR 3y ago
  There's even a Simpsons episode about it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TANRRhdncHc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TANRRhdncHc
• partiallypro 3y ago
  > But they don't. I mean, they actually do though. Apple and Google both do similar things, they just get less media coverage because they are seen as normal to the mobile ecosystem, while this seems abnormal because it's in a desktop environment. That's no excuse for Microsoft, I wish they'd stop doing some of this garbage, but to act like Apple and Google have clean hands is laughable.
• cptskippy 3y ago
  You're operating under the assumption that Microsoft is the only one doing this. This sort of thing happens regularly on Android though it's perhaps more subtle. I don't know how many times I've had to set the default browser, photo viewer, pdf viewer, etc only to be prompted to choose how to open a file and Google's App is first in the list. They also implement features in their Apps to avoid your defaults: https://i.imgur.com/9nzpTPG.png https://i.imgur.com/9nzpTPG.png Certain features like STT for the entire operating system require Google Assistant. And image search or real-time translation require the Google Search App to be installed. So you have to choose between being harassed by Assistant and Search prompts at ever turn, or disabling core OS features.
• kjrose 3y ago
  Are you totally unaware of the history of Microsoft all the way back to the 80s? Microsoft does not care about anything more than the bottom line. As long as they can increase revenues and market penetration, they will do it. They've been playing this game since IE.
• AppleBananaPie 3y ago
  I'm sure I'm biased but the old school pm culture at Microsoft is still alive and well. The new hires are forced to play the old stupid games of doing anything to get the metrics to show what they want in the short term and the cycle continues. Windows and Office both have this problem and I think will continue to until they get someone up top who's sole purpose is to root out this culture from middle management through low level execs. I would love to hear other folks opinions as I'm sure I see only a tiny sliver of what's going on :)
• ilyt 3y ago
  > I don't get Microsoft, have they no pride or desire to become a great company? Have they just become content to be an old corporate software house who only manages to keep users through dark patterns and anti-competitive behaviour because they have given up on making products which people enjoy to use? They were always that, thru entirety of their history they have used anticompetitive practices on any chance they could.
• balls187 3y ago
  Google and Apple do utilize dark patterns, as does Samsung, and Dell, and pretty much every other major device manufacturer. Microsoft just really abused it bundling in IE and was penalized hard for it. These other players have learned to push the limits of anti-competitive behavior while maintaining a plausible defense against government action.
• deleted 3y ago
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• giobox 3y ago
  > Apple and Google own the entire mobile OS market. They could literally destroy Microsoft if they started to hugely degrade the experience of Microsoft products on iOS and Android with dark patterns a la Microsoft. But they don't. Until very recently you couldn't even change the default browser on iOS, I think the idea Apple are playing "fairier" than Microsoft is a lot more nuanced than you make it seem with this statement. Even after adding ability to change default browser to iOS, there's still the limitation that only the webkit rendering engine provided by Apple can be used - Firefox and Chrome on iOS are wrappers around the OS level Webkit implementation - the rendering engine is still Safari/webkit - they aren't using their own rendering engines as they do on all other OSes. There's also the agreement between Apple and Google for default search on iOS too, which absolutely costs Bing marketshare. > https://9to5mac.com/2022/03/01/web-developers-challenge-apple-to-allow-other-browser-engines-on-ios/ https://9to5mac.com/2022/03/01/web-developers-challenge-appl...
• jackmott42 3y ago
  Apple does plenty of dark patterns. You are locked into their store, they decide what programs you can run on your phone, they decide what browser you can use, all the other browsers are actually just skinned safari.
• Aerbil313 3y ago
  "Microsoft" is not a person with emotions and desires. People too often anthropomorphize, and it is a natural thing to do imo, because we still think with human brains. Microsoft, like any other company, is a far more complex system than I think our brains are ever meant to comprehend, let alone create. Is it food to eat? A fire to warm up? Is it a leader to follow? A book to read? What even is Microsoft?
• thomastjeffery 3y ago
  You're missing some important context: Microsoft's software isn't even trying to be "good". That hasn't been the goal for a while. Instead, Microsoft's goal has been to cement its monopoly, particularly with Windows, Office, and Xbox. Sure, they tried to break into the mobile sector, but they seem to have generally accepted that failure. Every other move has been to keep everyone using the same old tech it had in 2002. Dark patterns are all about keeping users in the room. Microsoft has been a "great company" since 1993. As long as it can keep that status, it doesn't need "good".
• neilv 3y ago
  Google and Apple have to be careful not to sink to the historical levels of that other company. One nice thing about the last decade or so is that other company has had to rein in its historical behavior, and also care about PR a bit. We'll see how that plays out, given the increasing power that might come with the intimate relationship with OpenAI, and the frenzy of market interest around what's shipping there.
• trinsic2 3y ago
  It feels kind of like the have been taken over by some other organization actually.
• emodendroket 3y ago
  Yeah... Imagine if in iOS every link opened in Safari and the only alternative browsers allowed were reskins of Safari.
• nokya 3y ago
  Microsoft is a schizophrenic company. For each employee who tries to do things well, clean, and respectful of privacy, there is another one with the same amount of power who won't hesitate engaging in the worst tactics (dark UI patterns, fake/ambiguous statements, regular settings resets, etc.) to earn a few more points in a performance objective. Both crowds probably hate each other, but the working conditions are so great when you work there that the "nice" guys will probably always prefer to walk away, rather than engaging into a conflict to try convincing a moron that forcing a specific browser is a very very very bad idea. This thing of forcing Edge for opening links, it's clearly an idea successfully forced by a small group of bullies upon other employees, and they probably get a reward from the increased Edge traffic/usage. Ultimately, there is only one person responsible for this toxic culture and it's the CEO.