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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

• groffee 4y ago
  See how many times they write the word 'I'? They've never meditated properly even once. Teacher my ass, these people do way more damage than help anyone.
  • nayroclade 4y ago
    Do you meditate? Because if it leads to an attitude like you're displaying, it's not a great advertisment.
    • dijit 4y ago
      Well. https://www.psychnewsdaily.com/study-links-mindfulness-meditation-to-narcissism-and-spiritual-superiority/ https://www.psychnewsdaily.com/study-links-mindfulness-medit...
      • detourdog 4y ago
        I had a hard time with this article. The pool the subjects were pulled from is suspect to me. They also didn’t interview any Rabbis, Priests, Mullahs,…. They study spirituality of a small subset of people pursuing it.
        • dijit 4y ago
          Mindfulness as practiced by the typical western audience (largely secular, young professionals) is well represented. If you want to take something else away or are looking for alternative discussions about the nature of spirituality itself: go ahead, but that's not the study for that. Only mindfulness meditation as practiced in western society in the fashionable way.
          • detourdog 4y ago
            I disagree. The pool seems to be derived from students and professionals of mindfulness. I believe mindfulness can be practiced outside of that group. That group also seems like the most confused group of people practicing mindfulness. Mindfulnesss practiced in a fashionable way seems like the bottom of the barrel of mindfulness. Maybe I did read the article with the wrong point of view. I thought it was posted to support the notion that Mindfulness is flawed.
            • dijit 4y ago
              Mindfulness as practiced by people in the west in the fashionable fashion gives people a sense of superiority. Thats the crux of what is spelled out at length, could the study be improved? Maybe. But I see no evidence here of anything else, so until it is replicated or failed to replicate it will be my opinion.
          • manuelmoreale 4y ago
            Maybe secular young professionals all share some trait that can be associated with sense of superiority? And it’s not really about mindfulness or meditation?
            • dijit 4y ago
              study controls for that.
              • detourdog 4y ago
                I didn't go back to read check but my memory is that it was around 531 participants. So with that sample size who know how small the control group is. In any case it certainly is dominating more of my life than I'm comfortable with right now.
  • fluoridation 4y ago
    What would be acceptable an acceptable number? Zero? More than zero? How is it determined, and why is it important?
  • dinkleberg 4y ago
    How is one to write a story of their personal story in which they are the main, and for the most part the only character, without using the word “I” all the time?
    • fluoridation 4y ago
      "Rather than retelling it as a subjective narrative, you could retell it as an objective or omniscient narrator. It would sound completely ridiculous if the listener realizes that you're just telling your account from your perspective, particularly if you need to refer to yourself in the third person", said fluoridation as he thought how absurd the idea even is.
• fxtentacle 4y ago
  I'm submitting this article because I thought it was somewhat objectively written and an interesting subject to consider. My impression (from far away) of some of the meditation gurus is also that they look like they are kinda addicted to their new "hobby". Also, it's rarely healthy if your income depends on you strongly believing in something (anything, really). "60% of the participants reporting distressing experiences were meditation teachers" "Britton theorized that the effects of mindfulness might follow an inverted U-shaped curve, where at some point therapeutic returns not only diminish but mindfulness could have negative side effects"
  • culebron21 4y ago
    It was here on HN couple of years ago on top as well. Sadly, the main reaction here is "he did it wrong" or "not hard enough". Even though he addresses this objection in the article.
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  • dorchadas 4y ago
    I think these things are well known, and the problem is that meditation is being lifted from its original context by people who don't understand it - and who can't navigate these things that are supposed to be navigated with teachers. And then top it off by corporations promoting mindfulness as a panacea for everything so they don't have to worry about fixing underlying issues and can keep us running for longer, and I'm surprised this isn't more commonly talked about.
• fjfaase 4y ago
  This has been discussed before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27890790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27890790
  • dang 4y ago
    Thanks! Macroexpanded: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27890790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27890790 - July 2021 (568 comments)
• hislaziness 4y ago
  I think the author is confusing Buddhism and mindfulness.
• nabla9 4y ago
  It's really frustrating when intensive meditation is sold as always positive. Like you can't get injured, and even if you do you did something wrong. I have been meditating 20 years, and I have gone trough intensive retreats, so I share. If you read Buddhist sutras, you find out that Buddha experienced similar and worse while meditating. Going into horrible states of mind at some point is what almost everybody goes trough if they meditate intensively at some point. That's not Buddhism going bad that's what Buddhism has been for 2000 years. If you stay in monasteries long enough, you see monks recovering from bad experience, even some rare cases who are permanently broken somehow. That's rare but it happens. If your image of intensive meditation is "maintaining constant calm", or that "middle path" means no storms just the calm, you are mistaken. Human's don't naturally pay attention into their inner workings as much as they do in intensive meditation, something will happen. That's why you are doing it. Living normal hectic life and doing intensive meditation retreats can be a problem. If you live in a monastery or similar place where you meditate 3-4 hours daily, attending intensive retreats is more balanced experience. Taking one year sabbatical and doing nothing but meditation was important step for me.
• andrewstuart 4y ago
  Sounds like a psychotic episode.
• ghoastl 4y ago
  My most intense mindfulness experience was on a two-week silent retreat, in the woods, isolated from all of humanity. At the beginning, I met only the creatures of the forest and heard only the whispers of the trees. By the sixth day I was hallucinating gold and purple snakes slithering out of my belly onto the ground around me. By the eighth day I had visions of a cloud island vista with animals the world had never seen. They were cautious but friendly, and rode with me until the end of my journey that day. By the twelfth day, I could see nothing but heard the most beautiful music. Melodies and harmonies fluttered and floated across my audible plane, bringing an intense sense of peace and joy. When I left that place, I was a changed spirit. I may have been alone in physical form, but the universe embraced my inner self and showed me the path to enlightenment.
  • mahathu 4y ago
    You're describing a psychosis.
    • ghoastl 4y ago
      I am describing my experience. If you make the choice to medicalize my words, that is your own interpretation. But you were not there, you do not know.
      • fluoridation 4y ago
        You yourself describe it as a hallucinatory state, though. Were you aware that you were hallucinating at the time, or is it only in retrospect that you're able to realize that?
        • akomtu 4y ago
          In a country of deaf men, would hearing sounds count as hallucinations?
          • fluoridation 4y ago
• coldtea 4y ago
  There's no Buddhism in the West, but in name. Buddhism is a religion associated with a way of life and a culture. It's not something a businessman does on a "weekend retreat" as "mindfulness practice" to get back in the rat race refreshed.
  • wodenokoto 4y ago
    It's definitely something a Thai business man would do though.
    • ImHereToVote 4y ago
      [flagged]
    • coldtea 4y ago
      Even the Thai businessman (and the whole country) has been quite removed from the culture that made Buddhism have a meaning there (as opposed to an empty shell). Though, even so, he'd still be far closer to it than someone in San Francisco who adopted it as a consumer lifestyle good...
      • ImHereToVote 4y ago
        Yeah, only the Nepalese are pure enough to be Buddhists. I for one applaud the Taliban for blowing up statues of the Buddha. They aren't posers like we are.
      • CitizenKane 4y ago
        I'm not sure where your experience is from, but Buddhism is an integral part of Thai life and culture and I've seen this play out on a pragmatic level in many ways.
  • gtirloni 4y ago
    No True Scotsman? Or are you saying that in most cases it's just superficial? I certainly have met Buddhism pratictioners in the West that were deep into the way of life and culture.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• nprateem 4y ago
  Sounds like jhana worked and they awoke, via a Kundalini awakening. It's a shame the teachers couldn't provide more support.
  • passion__desire 4y ago
    I would just say the feedback loops between awareness got magnified by a lot. I would suggest the author to read the book "Kundalini: The Evolutionary Energy in Man". In that book, Gopi Krishna relates how his attention got fractured experienced sensations far intense. > Often in the silence and darkness of my room at night I found myself looking with dread at horribly disfigured faces and distorted forms bending and twisting into shapes, appearing and disappearing rapidly in the shining medium, eddying and swirling in and around me. They left me trembling with fear, unable to account for their presence. At times, though such occurrences were rare, I could perceive within the luminous mist a brighter radiance emanating from a luciferous, ethereal shape, with a hardly distinguishable face and figure, but nevertheless a presence, emitting a lustre so soft, enchanting, and soothing that on such occasions my mind overflowed with happiness and an indescribable divine peace filled every fibre of my being. Strangely enough, on every such occasion the memory of the primary vision, which occurred on the first day of the awakening, came vividly to me as if to hearten me in the midst of despondency with a fleeting glimpse of a supercondition towards which I was being painfully and inexorably drawn.
    • nprateem 4y ago
      Yes, the author should totally study Kundalini. Krishna's story is scary. It's even mentioned in Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha and The Mind Illuminated. Some traditions make it a central component (tantric & yogic), while some ignore it (Zen), but it's there in all of them. The core of religions flowed out of these experiences IMO. There should absolutely be greater awareness that this is where meditation can lead if practiced with sufficient intensity. It's hard to say what the frequency is, but the centrality of these experiences and extrasensory stories (e.g. the Buddha seeing spirits), suggests it's a widely experienced phenomenon along the path. I mean, if the aim of meditation is to awaken to the greater consciousness, then one day you're going to have to experience it to progress. This is where the West has lost its way. The culture has swung so far in favour of materialism it rejects the idea of universal consciousness, so sells mindfulness as simply brain exercises. That means if someone experiences the bigger reality they have no frame of reference and little support like they would if they followed a tradition where these experiences are more widely experienced.
• kashif 4y ago
  I think he had a panic attack
• bjt2n3904 4y ago
  > I spent my last day in Los Angeles riding on a Segway, buying legal marijuana and staring at some turtles in an on-campus pond at UCLA. Yeah, I'm sure that has nothing to do with psychotic breakdowns.
  • tough 4y ago
    Segway's are really potent
• scop 4y ago
  Had anybody else noticed that for many Stoicism has replaced Buddhism as the “cool” and “intellectual” spirituality amongst those in the liberal tech world?
  • zozbot234 4y ago
    Stoicism is more like Buddhism on easy mode for those in the Western tradition. Even Buddhists themselves are very clear that one should not pursue serious meditation unless they have their sīla (morality, ethical behavior) down pat and are at an appropriate stage of life where they have the time and means for it; Stoicism is all about the practice of sīla. If you skip on that, you end up with stories like OP's, and the people suffering psychotic breaks while on a meditative retreat.
    • marginalia_nu 4y ago
      It's probably no coincidence Stoicism (and Cynicism) appeared in the centuries following Alexander's campaign to India, and the bidirectional greco-indian cultural exchange that followed. (It's also no coincidence that a Indian Buddhist monks ostensibly wear orange togas; not that the Romans conquered India or the Indians went to Rome, but the two seem to have been inspired by the Greek Chiton and Himation) This cultural exchange is pretty fascinating thing in general. Here are some complementary reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Greece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_in_Greece
    • scop 4y ago
      I really appreciate your comment. I think I’ll remember the phrase “Buddhism on easy mode” for the rest of my life! Your observation about preparation, behavior, state of life etc is also very poignant. I am Catholic and something that I’ve found delving into the writings of the saints is that it is often like staring at the sun: it’s too intense and I’m not ready for it. For example, when I was an atheist in college I read St Augustine’s Confessions and found it interesting from a philosophical point of view and an easy read. Now, as a believing and practicing Catholic, I can’t even finish the book. It’s spiritual fruit, of which I was ignorant in my youth, are too intense for me. I come back to it every couple of years and each time make it a little bit further. That is all to say, it is funny how in mainstream discourse about religion/spirituality there is very little mention of “ability”. “Religious practice” is most certainly a skill that is acquired and refined through hard work (and grace).
• throwaway71271 4y ago
  as Jung says: the western individual is ready do travel great lengths, go farthest to the east, in the deserts, in the ice, meditate, change what they eat, what they drink, they will do anything, but look inside themselves.
  • qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
    Sublimation and carefully crafted neurosis to turn us all into powertools our society wields?
    • throwaway71271 4y ago
      thats what McKenna says :)
• me551ah 4y ago
  What he experienced is actually expected, deeper states of meditation bring out even harder experiences. Meditation is marketed in the west as some sort of a relaxation pill, designed to cure anxiety and other mental ailments. It's actually not. Meditation is a hardcore exercise for the mind and if your mind is not strong enough then deeper states will break you.
  • melx 4y ago
    Meditation is looking into one's mind to uncover the dirty things that one will have to face and "improve" upon. I meditate since 2011.
    • lanstin 4y ago
      Are you judging the various thoughts and emotions as dirty or clean? That is a very different practice from what I have been taught about Zen.
  • HeckFeck 4y ago
    Curious. It sounds like meditation has been misappropriated in the same way as therapy. Therapy _should_ bring up difficult emotions and experiences from the past because they are often the root of dysfunction and frustration in the present.
    • samastur 4y ago
      And then what? I'm genuinely curious as a loved one rejects therapy exactly because she already knows what causes of her depression are and does not see any use in debating them further as they only bring her down. I don't have experience or knowledge to explain how it would help her.
      • richiebful1 4y ago
        A good therapist doesn't just talk about root causes, imo. A good therapist talks about healthy coping mechanisms, and ways to get out of negative thought cycles
• 300bps 4y ago
  This article reminds me of the 28 year old mother that died from water intoxication trying to win a Wii for her children in 2007. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jennifer-stranges-family-awarded-165-million-in-wee-for-wii-contest-death/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jennifer-stranges-family-awarde... I don’t know what happened to the OP. Maybe he was experiencing psychosis, maybe he was in some stage of enlightenment, maybe he’s the victim of a harmful practice. But I do know he took mindfulness to an extreme that only a tiny fraction do. Anything in excess can kill you. Even drinking water. The 10 to 20 minutes per day many mindfulness meditators do doesn’t seem likely to have the same effect as experienced by the OP.
• nathan_compton 4y ago
  When I read this sort of thing I can't help but wonder whether the problem is with the person here rather than with meditation per se. Like I can't imagine a person with a healthy state of mind thinking "Gee, I need to meditate intensely for 8+ hours a day for fourteen days." It sounds crazy already. No wonder it turned out badly.
• CitizenKane 4y ago
  I’m an autistic person and it sounds like in some way this person achieved exactly the point of certain forms of meditation like this which is to open up awareness. And I think as many autistic folks will tell you, being very aware is extremely difficult and is mentally and physically taxing. If you aren’t prepared for it I could indeed see it being extremely disturbing. Being exposed to all your inner workings and thoughts constantly is not for the faint of heart. That being said, I think mindfulness in western countries skips a lot of Buddhist teachings, which are in large part designed to help deal with this kind of experience. I highly suggest that anyone that is going down this path seek out teachers that have experience and can be of aid. There are pragmatic aspects of it that go beyond meditation and in my opinion are just as important if not more so. And just to contextualize this, I’m a Buddhist. I live in Thailand and it’s something that is part of my normal life. As such, it’s rare the I’m meditating outside of a temple and I have easy access to a whole host of teachers. I would urge caution around retreats and other intensive practices. Mindset and setting are extremely important and should be considered carefully. I’ve had a lifetime to learn to live like this and I would not want to see anyone dropped in the deep end without proper preparation.
  • sclarisse 4y ago
    Was going to post this. There are reasons we have brains with selective attention instead of constant mindfulness, and a whole spectrum of disorders that arises when that sort of a filter breaks down. (I am lucky. I don’t have it bad.) Unfiltered mindfulness of this sort sounds like basically the same thing.
    • kayodelycaon 4y ago
      Pretty much. I’m bipolar and every moment I need to have some awareness of where my mood is and do course corrections to head off episodes or emotional overreactions. I quite literally can’t trust how I feel from minute to minute. Knowing my logical analysis of situations can also be compromised causes me to run deeper mental self-tests several times per day. I’m used to this but it’s a constant low-grade drain on my attention. Meditation is dangerous for me as it quickly leads to dangerous psychosis. (Life is a video game and I can’t really die.)
• magwa101 4y ago
  [dead]
• lr4444lr 4y ago
  I suffered from bad anxiety for a while post pandemic. Mindfulness meditation made me feel better during and for about half an hour afterward, but it wasn't "me again": it was some altered state that not only wasn't addressing the underlying issues (that I've since made great strides on in psychotherapy). I felt periods of great calm, but it was as if I was taking some drug to achieve an altered state. I read a lot about how to "bring the meditative state into daily life", and that only made the anxiety worse when it broke through, because it sensitized me to focus increasingly on internal physical phenomena. Yeah, I tried not to "judge" them, to neither anticipate their arrival and to just observe their rise and fall, but the observing meant attention, and the attention magnified them. I finally beat the anxiety mostly for good by acknowledging and facing the problems in my life. I haven't even solved much of them yet, but I'm pretty honest about it both to myself and the people close to me.
  • coffeebeqn 4y ago
    Me too, I had always had low level anxiety+depression but at the end of the pandemic it went out of control. Your comment made me think that people like to self medicate. Maybe a 10 day silent retreat is not that different from a heroic dose of psilocybin. Both are certainly high risk (potentially high reward) maneuvers to treat a mental health problem. Meditation was mildly helpful but it wasn’t really a practical solution for a working parent. You can’t hit pause on your life very often. SSRIs it is for now
• meindnoch 4y ago
  Sorry for the loss of your old self. Your life will never be the same as before. Once you peek behind the curtains, you can't un-see what you saw there.
• andai 4y ago
  > Once we have crossed the Arising and Passing Away (and if we don’t suddenly die or get severe brain damage due to some unfortunate life circumstances), we shall enter insight stages five through ten regardless of whether we want to. It doesn’t matter if we practice from this point on; once we cross the A&P, we are in the Dark Night to some degree and become what is sometimes called a “Dark Night yogi”, or simply “darknighter”, until we figure out how to get through it. If we do get through it without getting to the first stage of enlightenment, we will have to go through it again and again until we do. I mean this in the most absolute terms. It appears to be a hardwired part of human physiology as far as I can tell. I have a very large and growing body of case studies and a wealth of shared experiences among meditation friends and acquaintances to back this up, and I am not alone. Tens of thousands of meditators have noticed these stages in their own practice and countless teachers have noticed them also. Daniel Ingram, Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/5-dissolution-entrance-to-the-dark-night/ https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight...
  • wirrbel 4y ago
    It should be noted that Daniel Ingram is following the Mahasi sayadaw method and is a bit from of a fringe Buddhist subculture promoting (if I am not confusing things „dry insight“ meditation). Maybe the cultivation of the non-dry aspects is actually helpful.
    • andai 4y ago
      I am a noob, does dry insight mean no concentration practices? The book says a significant amount of concentration practice is necessary before it is possible to make any progress with insight practice, and also recommends continuing concentration practice as a stabilizing and comforting influence against the destabilizing and often unpleasant insight journey.
      • zozbot234 4y ago
        I assume that's a reference to reaching awareness of the three characteristics by "noting" perceptions and sensations in the mind as if blasting enemies in a video game. That's a very intense vipassana practice and while it apparently makes for quick progress towards full awakening, one could argue that it's not for everyone.
• denton-scratch 4y ago
  I have been told that Trungpa said "they always run". The context was people on retreats jumping up from their meditation cushion and running away as fast as they can, not to reach some destination, but just to escape. I've never witnessed this, but I never did many retreats. The practice wasn't the jhanas, it was meditation on emptiness. The idea is that when you achieve a certain level of realisation into emptiness, a sudden and irreversible change occurs, like a seismic shift, which results in terror. The practioner runs mainly to get away from the place where it happened (i.e., the cushion). Apparently they keep running until they feel safe. I was told that the jhanas (roughly, single-pointed concentration) were particularly risky, because it's easy to do them wrong. Note that the jhanas are not a type of mindfulness practice; the author seems to conflate them. > mainstream branding of mindfulness meditation as a panacea for all our woes. The fundamental purpose of mindfulness practice in Buddhism is to convince yourself that your sense of selfhood is false. Because we are so strongly attached to the sense of selfhood, achieving that conviction is going to be a wrench. In western psychology, the loss of a sense of selfhood is called "dissociation", and is a pathology. McMindfulness ignores all that. I once had negative experiences of meditation on emptiness; I was told to stop doing it. I'm quite certain that my experiences were not the result of any realisation!
  • zozbot234 4y ago
    I think you're conflating the concentration and insight jhanas/meditative practices. What you said about losing the sense of self is true of the insight jhanas, but "mindfulness" as a meditative practice is more reminiscent of concentration. Also, it's not like "losing the sense of self" is always bad for you; it depends how deep your attachment to the self was in the first place. Sīla (moral and ethical practice) and intellectual insights like Stoicism can help you gradually loosen the notion that a personal self must be integral to existence, without abandoning it completely.
  • yakubin 4y ago
    Mindfulness is the new agile. Every criticism is deflected with “you’re not doing it right”.
    • 4y ago
• nidnogg 4y ago
  Great write-up. Where I'm based, there are not a lot of meditation retreats at all. It's often something that's not really talked about but even then I wasn't aware at all that these side effects were out there. The most I went through as a short mindfulness class in college, and I absolutely thought it would be beneficial to go deeper into it eventually. I could never find the time or (mostly) patience to follow up with it afterwards. Having had almost life ruining psychosis for pandemic related reasons in between then and now, reading this makes me glad I didn't and keen to learn more on this side of the issue.
• crawfordcomeaux 4y ago
  A cultural addiction to dualism meeting a practice that opens one up to what lies beyond the innate denial of dualism will typically result in fear or pain. Setting expectations about what one will or won't uncover when one digs into the unknown subconscious is a recipe for all this.
• ergonaught 4y ago
  I read this when it was first published and I'll just continue to accept the author's assertions that they are experienced/informed/educated and point out that the "mindfulness" style of "meditation" is entirely different from the concentration-based styles of "meditation". It at least sounds like they were unaware of the differences, and unaware that the concentration-based styles are quite well documented as tending to produce various phenomena (glorious or horrifying and all points between and beyond) on the route. Even ignoring "awakening kundalini" types of things that other commenters mentioned, this is where most practitioners would say this kind of experience is why it helps to have a "guru" for assistance.
• revskill 4y ago
  To me, real meditation comes after hard work, really painfully hard work to make the system convenient before the rest period. You need to solve your life issues in first place to do whatever you want. Stay, doing nor thinking nothing about it? No, the problems is still there. You don't make it go away with your wasting time doing nothing like a Buddha (Buddha has no life issues to solve).
• grufus 4y ago
  The theory of 16 stages is pretty entertaining. > According to Ingram, one must continue to meditate through these awful experiences until reaching a deeper state of awakening. He makes it clear that the consequences of stopping are severe. Ron Hubbard himself couldn't have stated it any better. He'd be proud.
• theusus 4y ago
  I was 2 months into the practice and I started getting delusions and paranoia. And I still don't know why. But I can say for sure that I am able to replicate the experience if I start meditating.
• dayvid 4y ago
  Doing intensive meditation retreats is a Navy Seal hell-week for your mind. If people took that into consideration, they would be better prepared for the results. It's much better to start with a simple meditation practice or go on a shorter retreat (1-3 days), build up a base and periodically dip your feet in deep waters. There are too many people in the west who treat it like an extreme sport and get burned out in the process. It reminded me of when Tim Ferris decided to go on a 10-day meditation retreat after a multi-day fast and almost had a full mental breakdown.
  • spacemadness 4y ago
    I think some of that is the type A crowd being competitive about their meditation practices. It’s partly status seeking whether they realize it or not. Coupled with a mental health crisis I can see that being a terrible combination. Most people aren’t going to go on retreats or try to climb the enlightenment ladder like this.
  • starkd 4y ago
    Never understood the need for meditation retreats. The only purpose of gathering would be to meet and converse with other people. Not to sit and listen to them breathe.
    • jelling 4y ago
      I suspect the primary driver for 1 - 2 week retreats is that is the average Western vacation length and the mindful companies are maximizing revenue relative to CAC. Formal Buddhist training - such as to be a teacher within the Kadampa tradition - can be done once a week over a course of years. Other traditions training requires full-time reading training over years. I wouldn’t recommend someone try to master an instrument in 7 - 14 days as learning takes time for integration and people progress at different rates. So I’m skeptical of why anyone would suggest that for attempting to master the mind.
      • starkd 4y ago
        I can think of better ways I would want to spend a vacation.
• cutler 4y ago
  I can't help thinking that most of these examples of negative side effects are related to intensives rather than meditation/mindfulness itself. There's a world of difference between 20 minutes a day and 10 days in a retreat looking inward. Maybe it's just better for you in short bursts, not long marathons. I once experienced negative effects after joining a Buddhist meditation group while at university. Every time I faced anything which provoked anxiety, such as preparation for my final exams, I would turn to meditation assuming it would help me get things done but it had the opposite effect of avoiding what I needed to face. I ended-up spending longer and longer periods meditating but I felt I was getting weaker both physically and neurologically. Eventually, during the end-of-term holiday break, I consulted a doctor who gave me tranquillisers for a few weeks and I left the Buddhist group when I returned to university but it took a while to get back to normal. These days I do 20 minutes a day of mind control which involves nothing more than counting down from 9 to 1 repeatedly. No quest for Enlightenment. Just a sense of calm I can depend on balanced by facing stress and, most important, some kind of short-burst physical activity such as 3 sets of full squats to bring me right back into my body in no uncertain terms. Works wonders. It's all about balance. 10-day mindfulness retreats full of 2-hour sessions, in my view, are for zealots.
  • naasking 4y ago
    > Maybe it's just better for you in short bursts, not long marathons. Actual marathons aren't great for your body either, especially if it's not something you've diligently trained for properly, so that makes sense.
  • jossclimb 4y ago
    I expect there will be higher cases of psychosis happening on intense retreats, but as anecdotal as this, I had it happen to me (albeit not as extreme as OP) after meditating for much shorter periods (approx 10 minutes up to an hour). I really did not see it coming. For some context, I don't know of any deep seated trauma that I have and I liked to think of myself as someone robust mentally. I experienced a deep realisation that our thoughts manifest from nowhere and not from ourselves (words fail me here) and that the construct of 'me' was completely false and was just a reverberation of my environment. I understood there was no me. This was really nice for about two weeks. I started to think that I should be looking to help other people and become a guru, perhaps write a book to help humanity, but then my ego (I expect) came back with a vengeance, kicked my ass and brought me back down to earth with a crash (maybe its a safety system). I experienced huge panic attacks like I have never had before, I carried this constant feeling of absolute dread in my soul, like a sense of impending doom. I have heard it described as the dark night of the soul. Some try to push through this, but I held back as i cannot afford to have a complete meltdown as I need to care for a young family and hold down a job. I spoke with a well respected meditator about this, and they said the some people are wired to have an accelerated experience and are able to obtain deep introspection with limited time on the cushion. I would say I am almost back to normal now. I had to stop all meditation and instead focused on health food, sleep habits and lots of exercise. My main mediation type thing is now running, it quietens my mind, but the grounding effect of the movement keeps me in a safe play pen to explore my reality. meditation is incredibly powerful, in the west we have confused it as being a corporate stress ball that you squeeze or like a lavender scented, candle lit bath while listening to Enya. The truth is, it can reveal incredibly deep seated aspects of ourselves that we are in no way prepared to witness, let alone accept.
• codeptualize 4y ago
  It sounds like he tortured himself then got PTSD from it. Most things are fine when done in moderation, most things are bad when taken to the extremes. "13 days to go" suggest this was some crazy regimen, if you would do that to prisoners I bet it's actually considered torture. If I read about his past, it sounds to me like he might have some underlying mental health problems that would be good to address. Not by guru's, retreats, or pseudoscience, but psychologists and other professionals. I think he does come to the right conclusion that the extremes can be very harmful. They are not that far from cults, always some guru or leader, then many people blindly following their weird practices based on absolutely nothing but pseudo science and believe, with a tendency to get more extreme (and more expensive!) the deeper you get into them. Meditation is fine if done in moderation and as long as you don't expect it to solve all your problems. It can help with certain things, it also won't solve serious mental problems. Working through mental health problems is no fun and a lot of work with many ups and downs, there is no easy solution, there are no shortcuts. Get professional help, get therapy, get medication if needed, be kind to yourself, and just keep working at it one step at a time.
• denton-scratch 4y ago
  > In fact, in Britton’s study, 60% of the participants reporting distressing experiences were meditation teachers, rebutting Davidson’s argument that experienced meditators don’t end up in difficult territory. Meditation teacher !== experienced meditator. Author seems to have been hanging out in a McMindfulness milieu, with lots of people who are "professional" practitioners, and in an environment where lots of people treat meditation as something divorced from the Buddhist religion. I was annoyed when my teacher insisted that Buddhism was not a "science of mind", or some body of secular practices; it was intrisically religious. I tried for a decade to live with that, but eventually I gave it all up.
• leashless 4y ago
  All of the real meditation traditions around the world - including the ones inside of Christianity - spend decades training highly skilled teachers to help people 1) avoid problems like this, and 2) clean up problems like this when they do happen. And even so those traditions never, ever (in my experience) describe themselves as anything other than perilous. "The way is long and narrow." "Like a snake entering a bamboo tube." And so on. I put together a system for solo practitioners working with absolutely minimal oversight in 2015. People doing it since then, I talk to them roughly once (on average) to check they're doing it right, then don't hear back from them for years until they're getting into the weird "foothills of enlightenment" end stage stuff -- if they make it that far. Most don't, they plateaux. Which is fine, that's a good, safe place to be. Instructions here. There's a bunch of other stuff in that same directory structure. It's fine. http://files.howtolivewiki.com/.meditation_2015/transcripts/Vinay%20Gupta%20on%20Meditation.pdf http://files.howtolivewiki.com/.meditation_2015/transcripts/...
  • jossclimb 4y ago
    Exactly! The same thing plays out with psychedelics. Many cultures have thousands of years of passed down knowledge with a community of elders to guide people through a trip. In the west we think we can replicate the same thing, sitting at home with a friend who has no clue what they are doing when things go bad.
  • hiidrew 4y ago
    Thanks for sharing, going to check this out later off my work computer. I've been trying to become more disciplined with my meditation practice, I try to do 10 minutes every day.
    • leashless 4y ago
      This is probably not a good fit for you. Ten minutes a day would generally be safe for anybody. This is a different proposition.
  • colechristensen 4y ago
    All long term buddhist retreats will essentially sit you down and try make sure you're mentally healthy enough and prepared to partake. People losing it during long bouts is a regular occurrence.
• deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
• jeremyt 4y ago
  I have quite a lot of experience with meditation. I've done thousands of hours, including more than ten retreats that involved sitting for as many as 18 hours per day. I've also done many healing modalities, including somatic experiencing. From my perspective, we have taken "Buddhism" and "meditation" and we have done what us Westerners almost always do: we boil it down into "stuff that does stuff" and "everything else". We are so intensely and impatiently interested in "doing stuff". So, we have taken a tradition/religion that has existed for thousands of years, includes many practices and parts, and we have pulled out the part that "does stuff", and we call that mindfulness. But, if you really look at the tradition itself, particularly in non-Zen forms of Buddhism, what you often see is what are called "preliminary practices". Used to, if the Westerner goes east in search of meditation instruction, he or she has to get special permission to skip the preliminary practices. And what our preliminary practices? In the West we call that therapy. So, this really important thing, that one must do therapy and what they would call in the East "purification" before one is ready to start meditating has been tossed aside because it doesn't yield immediate results like a few days of mindfulness. In addition, the traditions are almost totally unaware of our understanding of trauma and the best they can do is use the language of "demons". So, I'm aware of "mindful-based stress reduction", but I'm not intimately familiar with it. It doesn't make sense to me why someone would use mindfulness to reduce stress or in place of a therapeutic or trauma modality. I mean, sometimes it is way more comfortable to not be aware of things than to be aware of things. And, in my experience, becoming aware of oneself is just a bunch of not fun realizations, including realizations like "I'm a people pleaser" or "I always sabotage relationships in a similar way". These realizations are not fun because just seeing the truth or the pattern doesn't change it, so you sit and watch yourself doing the same shit over and over and not quite having the power to change it... That requires much deeper meditation and awareness. At any point in this process, one can become too aware and too burdened with one's issues, and that can result in all kinds of stuff including breakdown and psychosis. At the end of the day, meditation and mindfulness and all the rest is basically just the matrix movie... Don't take the red pill unless you really want the red pill because sleepwalking through life unaware of one's issues and happily eating the steak that isn't there is sometimes more pleasant. Meditation is for those who want the truth, regardless of whether it feels good or not. For everyone else, there's therapy.
• pkrotich 4y ago
  Being mindful can open scary doors for sure... but something about the article gives me the vibes of depersonalization opesode of sort. Perhaps the effect of Marijuana + Mindfulness + Other stuff? I say that because a while back I started using CBD oil (yes, I bought into awesome benefits in listicles!) AND it triggered the worst 3 weeks of my life ever! Endless stream of panic attacks, paranonia and Depersonalization-Derealization [1]. I'm never touching CBD again! [1]- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization-derealization_disorder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization-derealizatio...
• sinuhe69 4y ago
  If you mediate, you should be aided by a master or friends. You should not mediate, especially deep mediate in a confusing state of mind, when you are panic or exhausted, when you are hungry or too full. If you don’t follow the rules and practice according to your levels, you can hallucinate and harm yourself (走火入魔). These are very clear advises from every Buddhist school. Meditation is one way to practice mindfulness. It’s NOT the only one. It’s by no way the silver bullet for all your problems. It’s also not a technique recommend for beginners. No Buddhist master would recommend it for you, if you haven’t studied the Buddhist teachings sufficiently. Above all, Buddhist meditation should always be practiced in accordance with the Buddhist teachings, first and foremost with compassion in mind. Abuse any technique and it will bring harm, especially on yourself.
• snozolli 4y ago
  I'd like to know what physical activity and exercise the author was getting during this period. I believe that 10 - 12 hours of breath counting was mentioned, and I can't imagine that being physically still for that long is good for the body. Some of the stuff about involuntary jerking and the author's shoulder reminded me of my experience with a pinched nerve due to a bulged disc in my neck. Also, I'm a bit suspicious of the quiet references to alcohol and drugs. I'm far from a tee-totaler, but I recognize that one man's casual drinking or smoking (i.e. THC) is another's depression or anxiety-inducing dose.
• graderjs 4y ago
  Yeah maybe because your mind was too full. Don’t be too full of mind. Just meditation. Very simple. Let go. It’s not easy, for most people I think, but it is simple. Good to see so much sensible awareness and respect of the powerful nature of these practices here in the comments! It gives me hope. Also, I really wanna wholeheartedly agree with what one person said which was that the people are probably not getting a lot of exercise during that time. I think physical activity exercise is so essential to mental health and the body's ability and the mind's to regulate itself. Our bodies were evolved and designed to require certain amount of movement every day, or fairly fucking regularly and without that I mean, you just get mentally ill, really. I mean, mostly. I mean you need regular physical activity to maintain good mental and emotional and I believe energetic health. So the physical activity is one thing that’s really important and actually one main point of hatha yoga is to provide that physical activity foundation and to prepare the body to be able to support those kinds of meditation practice. I think another thing that’s happening is our solar system is passing through the galactic current sheet so there’s more high energy, radiation and particles impacting The earth, effects on the magnetosphere as well as an uptick in solar events affecting earth and so all of the stuff will drive people a little bit more crazy. Add that to as other comments, said how these meltdowns seem to happen after intensive‘s. Also, consider the economic aspects of these intensive that are normally high outlay sort of transformation type workshop things that are at least from one level, essentially designed to generate a large amount of money from participants. I’m not saying everyone who creates those things is shady at all, but I think there is that there’s an economic aspect of those things that is intensive as well, and sometimes that probably coincides with less Karen attention to authentic and safe practices, and consideration towards the participants… and in any case for someone joining that it’s not the same as if you’re just going to yoga class three times a week or less for 90 minutes or whatever. People don’t realize how powerful some of these simple practices are and they’re playing with things they don’t know how to control and they don’t know what they are and things get out of hand. So doing those intensively day in and day out, the sort of like the energetic equivalent of basically taking people to Everest base camp and saying “well you know you’ve seen the intro video and here’s a map we will be with you in radio contact. you’re ready to go! up there is your direction.” The other thing I think is going on is that the Indians as in people from the subcontinent, you know Hindus and others from from India, I think well aware of the powerful effects on subtle energy that these types of practices can have and people are playing with energies and abilities and information that they have no framework to understand or interpret, and they have no ability to control, or even the awareness of what they’re doing on an energetic level. And things are bound to go wrong, especially the sort of commoditization of commercialization of a lot of these practices, at least in western countries although it’s probably happening in many places, things are bound to go wrong in that case, where these powerful techniques are divorced from the whole context of teaching and awareness for what they’re actually doing, and how do use them in a safe and sustainable manner. That may sound to woo for some people but it’s real and I think some of what is happening is it by participating in the such practices people are unwittingly unlocking and plugging into these sorts of abilities, energies, information, and they don’t have the training or the framework or the ability to be able to handle that and so they go nuts.
• adamgordonbell 4y ago
  Scott Alexander had reviews of Dan Ingram and related 'modern day enlightened'. I seem to recall a suggestion that these people could be considered to have developed something like a self induced, positive version of dissociative personality disorder. They would get angry or hungry or grumpy, but 'they' were a step away from this person that was hungry or angry or whatever. It's like they had zoomed in and drawn some separations between the various layers of consciousness that we consider all one and the same. Fascinating, but not something I'm interested in doing.
  • zozbot234 4y ago
    > these people could be considered to have developed something like a self induced, positive version of dissociative personality disorder. Yes, the self disorders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-disorders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-disorders of schizophrenics (such as feeling like thoughts are being radioed into your head) read like what might be expected to happen if one reaches sudden, involuntary awareness of the three marks of existence without having done any sort of meditative or even devotional practice, let alone reached any enlightenment. This only underscores that awareness of the three characteristics is part of what frees us from dukkha but is not in itself sufficient; after all, people who undergo these psychotic breaks are obviously very deeply mired in craving and dukkha.
  • cracoucax 4y ago
    Daniel Ingram is a deluded fool, and imo being this deluded probably means a sort of mental disorder. His book and system just show how far away from any real form of enlightenment he is. Sadly because he sounds modern & a little scientific people keep taking him seriously. No, the Vipassana nanas are not what he describes. Anyone wondering about him should just forget this stuff, burn this book and go to a retreat with a well known teacher.
    • zozbot234 4y ago
      Are you basing this purely on reading about supposedly enlightened people getting angry or grumpy? That's a surprisingly common thing, actually. I know that Ingram's claims of arahatship are controversial and quite possibly mistaken (i.e. it's quite possible that there are levels to enlightenment well beyond what he discusses, especially wrt. the grounding of sīla and renouncing one's cravings), but that's not to say one should dismiss his whole teaching.
• inphovore 4y ago
  Too much mindfulness reveals we are not alone in our own minds and your controls will destroy you for your awareness. The MKS[1] one hundred years ago spoke of crude tools for developing “mindfulness” and allowing the “master mind” to emerge (you discover you are not alone in your mind.) superficially this is blamed for positive thinking as “the secret”. The “secret” is others can hear your thoughts and take mischievous (or benevolent) interest in our interests. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_Key_System https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Master_Key_System
• phkahler 4y ago
  >> What we do share is a feeling that’s common among those who have had traumatic experiences: neglect, shame and a sense of being unheard by those in power. They might want to read "Running on Empty" - the book notes that various forms of emotional neglect can have effects like trauma, but this is often overlooked by psychologist and therapists. I enjoyed the part in the article where the author said they finally allowed themself to be angry and wanted to ask "who should that anger really be directed at?"
• MauroIksem 4y ago
  There's a great podcast that explorers this issue when a guy goes missing in india after he loses his mind much like this guy
• neilellis 4y ago
  Yep that's what an intense panic attack feels like. Literally the worst experience you can imagine. His description matches my own worst experiences. And yes it would freak anyone out. Guess how I overcame them :-) yep, you guessed, meditation - but it took time. I no longer have panic attacks but it was not a smooth journey. I also made big life changes and spent a lot of time in nature, coupled with medications. On reflection I was pushing myself hard and was filled with ego - I'd had difficulties in the past before I started meditating and was massively overworking myself. A crash was inevitable. I am humbled by what I passed through - and that in itself is a victory. Do I think meditation 'caused' the panic attacks, no, it brought to the surface something that was pretty much inevitable because of how I was living my life. Should I have treated meditation more respectfully and seriously. Yes, for sure. Meditation is not a miracle drug, a panacea or a therapy. It should be viewed as the journey out of suffering - and that path by its very nature is likely to confront you with difficult experiences. If I can offer a tip or two from my own experiences :- AGAIN: Meditation is not a miracle drug, a panacea or a therapy. Serious meditation is a serious endeavour, like free-climbing. You should never take it lightly and you must be serious about it. When you take something seriously you do so with awareness of the dangers and the hardships you may face. You may have genuinely very difficult experiences as the OP did, that is why it's important to have an experienced and wise Teacher. They can help you face these experiences and help you to grow stronger by doing so. Take your time, the path is a long path, don't try for Nibbana by Tuesday, instead look for small concrete improvements and build on them over time. Be humble and realise that you have a lot of stuff to deal with and it takes time. NEVER EVER lie, omit or exaggerate on an application form. This is how meditation teachers determine the risk of you having an experience you can't deal with. This was mentioned in the article, but I can say for sure that the teachers of Goenka retreats do try their hardest to not accept people on causes who might have difficulties. They also do drill in the idea that it's a serious undertaking. If you have a difficult experience and can face it, even a little, your mind is stronger for it. The next time it happens maybe you can face it a little more. I hope this article does not put people off meditation, it turned my life around. But at the same time, I hope people can take away the seriousness of such endeavours as the article does highlight. When something that over a 100,000 people a year do any activity there will always be a tragic story. Be it running a marathon, boating or driving cars. Of course we should do everything possible to avoid that happening. But we do need to be realistic and acknowledge that tragedies do happen even when people have the mental equivalent of a driving license, air bags, seat belts and drive carefully. Wishing you all happiness.
• agileAlligator 4y ago
  I never understood exactly why the West views meditation as something healing, something that can be prescribed willy-nilly to individuals with a history of trauma. I guess it's because it is non-invasive and doesn't sound like it would harm the patient further if not help them.
• anon9931 4y ago
  The place where I learned to do deep meditation also had a strong emphasis on self-pacing. Maybe that would help reduce these kinds of negative experiences. With meditation, more isn't better, and it's important to stay grounded. (Note that I rarely meditate anymore, but it did help me through some difficult times) https://www.aypsite.org/38.html https://www.aypsite.org/38.html - self pacing https://www.aypsite.org/13.html https://www.aypsite.org/13.html - deep meditation
• justsocrateasin 4y ago
  Reminds me a lot of Overtraining Syndrome (OTS), the condition where your body stops responding positively to the stress of endurance sports and essentially stops recovering quickly. A 20 mile run no longer makes you faster, instead the fatigue from it just settles inside your body. I remember reading that while training for an ironman and getting a bit spooked. But then I realized that the folks who suffer from OTS are taking it to such an extreme. This article reminded me a lot of that - it sounds like you can take anything too far. At the 99.99th percentile, probably any healthy activity can become an obsessive act that can ruin your life. But anywhere in between the 50th and 99th percentile it's probably still a good thing.
  • californical 4y ago
    Yeah I had similar thoughts about OTS when training for one myself — but I think it’s a lot easier to push into that hypothetical 99.99 percentile than you think. Like maybe 1/20 people will ever do something as intense as a triathlon, in general. So we’re already at 95%. Then maybe 10% of triathletes will do a full Ironman. 99.5%. Of that top level who train for an Ironman, half are not training that hard and just having fun. 99.75%. So if you’re someone who is training hard for an Ironman, you’re already well beyond the 99th percentile. But still only a small fraction of people who train for an Ironman have any issues with it. But if you’re at that level, you’re already close to the top and it’s not a crazy stretch to think you could get there if you got a bit carried away. Similar with meditation, I think the analogy works. If you’re consistently meditating for 10min per day for several straight months, that’s more than most people would ever do.
• Decabytes 4y ago
  From what I have read, negative experiences from mindfulness practice have more to do with the fast food way of approaching it that we go about it in the west. It requires a much slower progression that is usually done with a more experienced mentor, who will guide you through the process and help you when you encounter these issues. These techniques are powerful and helpful and can definitely help alleviate stress and anxiety, but like in the Nietzsche quote “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you” The way we teach it in the west does not equip us for when the abyss gazes back
• dmillar 4y ago
  The next four hours were a hellscape of terror, panic and paranoia... Finally, after hours, the attack smoldered and I drifted off. It was the worst night of my life. The next morning, while making coffee...
  • BrianHenryIE 4y ago
    Caffeine addiction is real.
• kouunji 4y ago
  This feels like part of a western habit of cherry-picking from other traditions, and, in this case, not understanding the context we're pulling from. We see things like Zen as fun, playful and liberating, but miss the whole part of it that entails "killing the self". It's a practice of systematically disassembling what you thought you were until there is nothing left...and this is a process that is generally done in a highly structured, supervised way. It's telling that we just pluck out the practice and think it will let us deal with our shit so we can get more done at work. I say this from the context of having studied in Zen temples in Japan in my 20s, and having done myself real harm.
  • data_maan 4y ago
    I do not want to intrude - but I am curious at the same time what you mean by "real harm", was it something along the lines of what the original author described? (Or perhaps other people can share their experiences?) I'm also a bit confused from a logical point of view - if there is such and end goal of Zen, of being "completely disassembled" wouldn't Japanese temples where they do a lot of zazen, at some point need to look like asylums for the terminally psychically ill, once a majority has "disassembled themselves"?
• theonemind 4y ago
  The dark-night-of-the-soul phenomenon is associated with vipassana meditation. In the Platform Sutra dating from perhaps around 700 AD, Huineng (ostensible author) talks about people going insane from ill-advised meditation methods of suppressing body and mind. It seems like these early 'mystical' offshoots around meditation-heavy religion typically don't typically involve or speak well of a lot of meditation, truthfully. Zen Master Bankei didn't want his monks to meditate at all. The problem is that meditation is a cargo-cult. Early in the history of Dzogchen, they had trekcho, "cutting straight through", not a heavy emphasis on meditation. Early in the Zen tradition, they had precious few words to say anything well of meditation at all. Zen Master Foyan wrote, maybe around 1200ish?: > Buddhism is an easily understood, energy-saving teaching; people strain themselves. Seeing them helpless, the ancients told people to try meditating quietly for a moment. These are good words, but later people did not understand the meaning of the ancients; they went off and sat like lumps with knitted brows and closed eyes, suppressing body and mind, waiting for enlightenment. How stupid! How foolish! As someone into this stuff, there is kind of something there--it's the advaita vedanta like realization that this is it, the eye never sees itself. It's hard to describe in a few words, and has nothing at all to do with vipassana or jhanas. Alternatively, I think it has to do with switching to the floodlight perception of the right hemisphere as the default resting state of the mind. The left hemisphere tends to over-dominate because it works on positive-feedback--the more it engages with something, the more it wants to engage. It gets overheated and starts to turn its tunnel vision into a primary aspect of ordinary awareness and places a really heavy overlay on direct experience. The right hemisphere does the more typical negative feedback/diminishing marginal utility thing most of the time. I'm a big fan of direct-path teachings like Loch Kelly gives. I think heavy meditation, especially vipassana, is just a cargo-cult hazing.
  • weregiraffe 4y ago
    >the eye never sees itself. A mirror: allow me to introduce myself.
• 2devnull 4y ago
  I’m inclined to think this stuff is more correlation than causation. Meditating is a weird thing to do. Outside of eastern religious practice at least. You get some some semi-normal people who do it, ray dalio comes to mind, but mostly it attracts people who aren’t mentally well to begin with. It’s exactly the group of people you’d expect to have these kinds of problems. The same group that should avoid weed and shrooms and for the same reasons. There are a lot of these people on hn and in the tech world, overachievers high on the neuroticism scale. A normal person doesn’t meditate more than 30 minutes a day. That alone is a symptom of deeper issues.
  • louison11 4y ago
    Nobody is mentally well to begin with. Suffering is universal. You simply get people who are ready to deal with their suffering and seek help through appropriate practices, and people who are in denial and convince themselves they're fine. There are a lot of very wise, sane, stable people who meditate a lot more than 30 minutes a day.
    • 2devnull 4y ago
      There is a spectrum, on one end well adapted, psychologically advantaged individuals, and at the other end people who are more prone to suffering or various difficulties. I cited ray dalio as one of many examples of same, wise stable people. That there is a bell curve is obviously the case. Most people do not meditate daily. Of those that do, the tendency to have psychological issues is greater than in the set of individuals that do not.
  • sixo 4y ago
    That meditation reliably causes these crisis events (so much that it's an acknowledged "stage" of the process; the "dark night of the soul" term comes from the Roman Catholic contemplative tradition which maybe doesn't refer to the same thing but has a similar role in the process) is pretty much THE criteria to establish causation; that it only happens to a portion of meditators additionally rules out "the kind of person who would meditate is going to have this happen anyway". Meditating IS weird but, historically, not nearly as weird as a-spirituality, which is the state of the "normal person" in your comment. And, of course the drive to meditate reflects some difference relative to the general population, but "symptoms of deeper issues" implies buy-in to a kind of the therapeutic/mental-health framework of "if you're unable to exist within the range of 'normal' all the time, you have a disease" and, well, it seems pretty reasonable to be discontent with your life—either your life or your feelings needs to change, and emotional searching is kind of the obvious way to address that.
• marhee 4y ago
  > ...and began self-medicating with drugs and alcohol. Looking back, it was also during this time period that I had my first dissociative experiences, in which elements of my sense of self became separated in a way that impaired my ability to function. This was a couple of years before the "meltdown". While meditation surely may have induced mental health issues, the drugs and alcohol probably didn't help. What stands out is that he had mental health issues and some point that grew worse, sadly. It temporally correlated with meditation but that doesn't mean it was predominantly caused by it. The meditation may have triggered things, sure, but my guess is he likely would have had a meltdown also if he went all-in on some other activity for 10 years. After all, with multiple years (4, 6?) between the first dissociative symptoms and the break down, you could also argue that the mediation may even slowed or alleviated the effects of the mental disorder until some threshold was hit.
• fallingfrog 4y ago
  Did this guy go to the hospital? That sounds like a stroke or an aneurysm or something like that.
  • henearkr 4y ago
    Yes, that's what I immediately thought too. Like a small stroke. It can also be some cognitive effect from a latent condition like MS. Or any other neurological problem, really. To put the blame on the meditation is a bit quick, in my opinion. At most, the meditation maybe put some load on brain regions that were not accustomed to work to this intensity, but it isn't even required to explain the symptoms: could just be bad luck that the neurological problem occurred during meditation.
• version_five 4y ago
  Serenity Now!
• thenerdhead 4y ago
  When I read articles like this, I’m reminded that you can overdose by taking any extreme. It was a great read discussing their experience, but seems to warn a very small dedicated group who will take it to the extreme when very few will ever do so in the first place. The stoics, buddhists, and taoists all had a similar idea of moderation of two extremes. The similar idea of having a dark night of the soul because you are imbalanced in some way leading to a crisis of faith. Even Shugendo/Yamabushi practices are a long extended journey where meditation is met with physical exhaustion. Thus it balances itself out. It’s a lifelong practice and seems the awareness is doing its job of making one aware of the pain to work through. I don’t think Buddhism is the problem here, the over attachment to it seems to have left the author with suffering.
  • SV_BubbleTime 4y ago
    > I met her by happenstance, nine months before my disastrous retreat. She was leading a conference called “Do No Harm” in Los Angeles about adverse effects of meditation. This among other parts make me wonder if the author doesn’t have another side to the story of their life. They mention the drinking and the drugs, but… I wonder what would have happened had they not gone to this event, not known there was someone out there educating on the bad sides of meditation, etc. No offense to the guy at all, but I consider the narrator unreliable.
• dr-detroit 4y ago
  [dead]
• javier123454321 4y ago
  In the west, many conflate meditation for stress release and meditation for transcendence of the self. If your goal is to develop yourself to go beyond every limitation that you ever believed about yourself, to transcend every piece of identity that you ever identified with in order to reach enlightenment, then it is best to look for a teacher that: 1. has achieved the goal you are after. (A teacher that practices what they preach) 2. is willing to take you as a student 3. You are willing to commit to their path and working through the difficulties like the ones outlined in the post Note that this is explicitly about no longer identifying with your ego, and will be a very difficult, and sometimes dangerous road. Otherwise, then take the advice of the article and just do a little here and there. Just don't conflate the two things, and - especially if you are doing the latter - definitely don't go around shopping for a bunch of different methods and try to practice them all as the author did. Grab a method and stick with it, if it's not for you then chose another one and stick with that, but don't fall into the trap of trying to create your own medicine from the vastness of teachings and methods.
• jmfldn 4y ago
  My personal take is that mindfulness as a stress reliever is normally fine in small doses. It can often be very beneficial in lowering stress. If you have a known underlying mental health problem however, I would recommend taking this up with some prior medical consultation all the same. Mindfulness employed as part of a spiritual practice however, should be practiced within the right context and with the right guidance. You have to remember that mindfulness is Buddhist in origin and, as a practice, sits within a whole web of practices that all support and interpenetrate. You absolutely cannot remove mindfulness from the other aspects of the path. It makes no sense to divorce it from right livelihood, right effort etc. Tldr. If you want spiritual progression, respect the tradition. That might sound a little conservative, but this is my own take on it at least. Jumping into a long retreat with no prior exposure to this amount of meditation and without a wider practice to ground it in, is not wise imho.
• kwertyoowiyop 4y ago
  Meditation sounds a bit like spice on your food. A little can be good, too much isn’t. And if you don’t like it, stop.
• mettamage 4y ago
  I did an ask HN recently if there's something similar with stoicism [1]. I'd like to put the question into the public limelight again, since stoicism and mindfulness meditation share commonalities. They are also very different, so perhaps my question is silly. Then again, it was also silly with regards to meditation, until it wasn't. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34855673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34855673
  • matthewaveryusa 4y ago
    I think the key is to not surrender yourself to meditation. It's a means to your ambitious ends. A stoic with no ambition is just a push-over.
• justincredible 4y ago
  [dead]
• ROTMetro 4y ago
  "All of humanity's problems stem from man's inability to sit quietly in a room alone" Pascal
• golemotron 4y ago
  It is notable at the author keeps using frames like "harmful", pathologizing what is really just direct contact with one's sensations and experiences. A less enculturated person might be able to go with the flow they've newly tapped into without fighting it. There's a lot of grasping ego. The thing they don't seem to get is that what they are experience may just be normal consciousness to many people who don't have a mind that is continually discriminating and sorting. I take more as an indictment of the disconnection our culture creates in people than the practice itself.
• spccdt 4y ago
  Reminds me of a similar anecdote from Holly Elmore in 2021 [1]. [1] https://hollyelmore.substack.com/p/i-believed-the-hype-and-did-mindfulness-meditation-for-dumb-reasons-now-im-trying-to-reverse-the-damage https://hollyelmore.substack.com/p/i-believed-the-hype-and-d...
  • ccooffee 4y ago
    Thanks for sharing. Your article feels a lot more intimate (less analytical) than the OP's. In particular, I was delighted to read the "Harm: loss of 3D vision" section because I now realize that my experience of rarely perceiving 3D isn't just me making things up. In particular: > I can pop in and out of 2D and 3D vision at will, it’s just that 2D is the default, and 3D always feels more real. I _wish_ I could do this at will. Probably once a month or so I notice that I have 3D vision and become entranced with just looking at things around me. Usually the feeling subsides within an hour, but it's rarely a "pop out" and more a gradual decline in how 3D things are. And now I'm off to the wikipedia rabbit hole to learn more about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereopsis_recovery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereopsis_recovery
• notShabu 4y ago
  There's actually a whole subculture around hardcore spirituality through Jed McKenna books. Sample: https://twitter.com/a_yawning_cat/status/1329310154630696960?s=20 https://twitter.com/a_yawning_cat/status/1329310154630696960...
• DasCorCor 4y ago
  I think this author's perspective and story are really important. It's pretty clear that he overdid it and that there is an issue in some (possibly most) of the western Buddhist groups in marketing mindfulness as a cure all panacea. Everything has a concave dose-response curve, even water and radiation.
• hot_topic 4y ago
  Even more proof that mindfulness is about deeply analyzing the pressures on your own individual self
• schnable 4y ago
  Sounds like a bad acid trip.
• AlexCoventry 4y ago
  Contemporary mindfulness practices are a harmful corruption of the original approach. A good book on the subject is Right Mindfulness: Memory & Ardency on the Buddhist Path[1] by Ven. Thanissaro. > For the past several decades, a growing flood of books, articles, and teachings has advanced theories about the practice of mindfulness which are highly questionable and—for anyone hoping to realize the end of suffering—seriously misleading. The main aim of this book is to show that the practice of mindfulness is most fruitful when informed by the Buddha’s own definition of right mindfulness and his explanations of its role on the path. [1] https://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index.html#right_mindfulness https://www.dhammatalks.org/ebook_index.html#right_mindfulne...
  • BizarroLand 4y ago
    I feel like meditation being doled out like a placebo or harmless panacea may need to be curtailed. Humans have a vulnerability to unknown unknowns, and meditation is a possible pathway to experience those.
• tk17 4y ago
  I have severe panic attacks and was basically unemployable for 5 years. It’s impossible to say what happened here. I had a similar array of experiences and I still think meditation is a net positive and that these experiences are very rare. But the nocebo effect is powerful and it can be a bitch. Meditation is probably fine. I don’t see a reason to reject the null hypothesis that it is no more dangerous than any other intense pursuit. Work and capitalism probably have 10,000x the psychiatric casualty rate. In fact, open plan offices are probably more dangerous than an LSD trip once per year (though I don’t recommend the latter except in a controlled therapeutic setting).
• frellus 4y ago
  Serenity, now ... insanity, later Hoochi-mama! Hoochi-mama!
• simmanian 4y ago
  If people are looking for a guided way to learn Buddhism and its practices, there is an online English course designed to introduce you to the teachings and integrate you into the community. You do have to attend virtual sessions with your camera on. Please feel free to ask me for details if this interests you.
• scotty79 4y ago
  If you have similar symptoms it might be chronic caffeine overdose. Stop drinking coffee (or switch to deacf) and tea for few weeks to rule it out.
• cat_plus_plus 4y ago
  "The short answer is that in 2009 I started a fist fight in a French Quarter bar over some jambalaya, a steamy kiss, and a stray comment I didn’t take fondly" - the author should seriously consider the possibility that their later issues had more to do with whatever led to this episode in the first place than with meditation, which is not a magic cure all. People are not likely to think themselves in or out of psychosis, although there can be a triggering even for onset of symptoms that would emerge anyway. Better understanding of the underlying condition can lead to better treatment, likely with Western medicine and therapy, possibly also with meditation/yoga tailored to these symptoms. Relaxing is generally good for you, seeking intense experiences with one is already on edge is counterproductive.
• TurkishPoptart 4y ago
  >According to a 2017 report by Marketdata Enterprises, the U.S. meditation market is predicted to grow to 2 billion dollars by 2022. There is no need for a "meditation market", and the term itself is absurd. Can I make a shameless plug for Vipassana here? In the tradition of the Buddha, the Vipassana school offers classes and retreats worldwide, and they do not charge a time; only accepting donations and service in return. dhamma.org
• jdeaton 4y ago
  I used to compulsively meditate when I experienced anxiety, so much so that my mind began associating meditation with anxiety. The ironic effect was that meditation itself started to become slightly anxiety inducing.
• binarysolo 4y ago
  This "meltdown" is a highly known outcome of the practice (and kinda why people historically do it with guidance in a safe space with a lot of time-honed set of best practices from thousands of years of history). It's kinda like people who are in reasonably healthy mental shape suddenly decide to run an ultramarathon of the mind. I'm not sure if OP may have the correct expectations.
• quijoteuniv 4y ago
  I though i read “my me me let me to a meltdown” . No, joke aside. Moderation is good. Not everything needs to be intense. Some people that have use drugs tend to arrive to meditation as a replacement of those intense experiences. No need to be famous, tell my story, and yes there are a lot of lunatics conducting retreats with no idea on what they are doing. And yes if you play with fire you tend to get burned. Also i find that meditation usually and gently can release some energy, but that does mean that your are smarter. I am just the same idiot with more energy :)
• rdevsrex 4y ago
  What OP describes sounds like the common bad trip with various psychedelics. Of course there are differences, but it's very easy to get yourself into a state of mind that you can't easily get out of for hours on end. Definitely not fun.
• Zachsa999 4y ago
  Innocent question by a non meditator. Every couple months when it takes an hour or two to fall asleep, I get this otherworldly feeling; like a specific part of my body is growing unbelievably heavy, large and uncontrollable. It feels like this body part will end up crushing me, suffocating me, imploding, etc. It feels like it's happening to me, but I am not in my body. I start to feel emotions start to wash by me, it starts with curiosity, shifts to discomfort then quickly on to anxiety, fear, depression, terror, and once the last three in a horrifying mix. It started when I was young, probably 10 or 12, and has slightly decreased over time. I'm closer to 25 now, and it's lost it's hold slightly. Two or three times it got me out of bed and pacing around grabbing things for fear of death or an unimaginable irrational fear of my swelling tounge. Currently I have a high level of control over it, I can choose whether I want to dive in or what level of emotion I want to experience. Is this an accidental over application of meditation? Is it dementia at an extremely young age? I would love to hear your thoughts.
  • zozbot234 4y ago
    The state of being about to fall asleep is an altered state of consciousness, and not too different from the states that are entered while meditating. The standard way to address it would be to try and bring that state of anxiety, fear and terror towards a calm equanimity: a sense and intuition that no matter what happens, everything will be okay. This might even help you realize that you actually have some unresolved baggage or stress to work through that's blocking this path and leaving you with that anxiety. But that's quite common and not very hard to address in turn.
    • Zachsa999 4y ago
      Thanks for the comment. I agree, and my experience has been that I can turn it all off. I didn't put it here as a "help me god" but it's been on the back of my mind for years, and I was hoping someone here might have academic knowledgeable with this exact experience.
  • mikem170 4y ago
    Some of what you said reminds me of a friend of mine who had "night terrors". This friend described how they would sometimes wake up in the wrong order. Their conscious mind would wake up while the body was still paralyzed with sleep, typically with a terrible feeling of dread, like someone behind them is going to attack them and they can't move. What you described made me wonder if sometimes you fall asleep in the wrong order.
• YeahNO 4y ago
  Intense meditation and self-introspection will dredge up long suppressed trauma you may not even be aware of. It may be beyond your ability to cope with its sudden release. Western appropriation of Eastern tradition can be fraught with peril. "Yet, somewhere six or seven years into my practice, whatever progress I was making petered out. I was experiencing a growing sense of bodily agitation and began self-medicating with drugs and alcohol. Looking back, it was also during this time period that I had my first dissociative experiences, in which elements of my sense of self became separated in a way that impaired my ability to function." Also, recreational drugs may introduce negative experiences in your meditation journey.
• FrustratedMonky 4y ago
  Buddhism is all about reducing suffering. BUT, once a large group gets together in an organization, like with the big Zen Centers, they fall prey to the same organizational defenses. The organization becomes more important than the individuals, just like any corporation, it becomes a beast with its own survival instincts. Once this happens, you could argue that they are no longer representing Buddhism. But this is pretty tough issue, or balance, because meditation does help people, so how do they get exposed if there is no organization? People have to get started somewhere, so some weekend meditation courses or sittings are good for an organization to 'organize' and get the word out. The big mistake is people jumping right into these long week long silent retreats. Those are supposed to be for advanced meditators, not right off the couch. Like doing a 10K right from the couch, don't do a week long retreat from nothing.
• blueprint 4y ago
  according to a master I trained under, the meditation taught today is the opposite of what buddha taught; it leads you to abandon and lose yourself, and to call the souls of the dead to come in and drive your body. they show people things, such as experiences, to trick the living person into allowing the dead soul in. they use aspects of your existing character to make you think the feelings are coming from your own self even though the impulse is environmental. for example some religious people are made to feel as if they are more special or as though they have a special connection with heaven. there are a lot of people who claim enlightenment in the world today. but none of them except for a Tathagata have actually come near to it or attained it in reality. most of them are nearly totally possessed by ghosts. if this were not true then we would have teaching and advancements in human society from many fully realized beings. they would be able to realize anything in physics or the way and causes to any desired effect in real life. but we obviously dont have this. instead what we have left are platitudes and falsehoods which are designed to confuse the opponent.
• IngvarLynn 4y ago
  But Doctor, I Am Pagliacci.