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Scheduled to Die: The Rise of Canada’s Assisted Suicide Program

121 points by sfusato 4y ago

trdtaylor1 4y ago
Unfortunately the rollout of the program in the Canadian military veteran community leaves something to be desired as well; numerous vets calling for assistance kept being informed of the assisted suicide program versus getting the help they had asked for. Considering how it's starting to make news waves in Canada i'm surprised they don't mention it at all. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted-death-macaulay-1.6671721 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted...
- deleted 4y ago
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- croes 4y ago
  The problem is, how do you communicate the possibility without it being perceived as a suggestion?
  - kneebonian 4y ago
    There's a strict law in other places that a provider can never bring up the option, it must always be a patient initiated discussion.
    - croes 4y ago
      If you don't know this option exists, you won't necessarily mention it voluntarily for fear of being committed to a psychiatric ward.
      - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        This is very real and dystopian. If they hear that you're suicidal you'll get a straight-jacket and involuntarily medicated but if they see your broken ankle they'll suicide you for free.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    You dont, it should NEVER be offered as a possibility, only if the person directly inquires about it should be talk about
    - tejohnso 4y ago
      Why should options be held back? I'd want to know all options available to me for whatever my scenario is rather than being treated like a child who can't decide for themselves. When I ask for help I want all reasonable possibilities presented because I'm not going to think of everything.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        Have you seen some of the videos coming out of Canada, where "doctors" who are more or less agents of the state have presented that not as an option, but the best option. For example there was one person that was trying to get In-Home nursing, which my understanding was an option but the "doctor" kept pushing suicide as the better choice, this person clearly did not want to die, but it was being pushed as the first option for them. The perverse incentives of state run healthcare combined with a suicide option opens up all manner of abuse, and unintended results.
      - Jarwain 4y ago
        In a general situation, yeah sure that makes sense. But this is Death. It's always an option, everyone knows it's an option, and sometimes it's an easier option. Leaving it to the person to suggest makes it the last resort, and ensures all other options have been exhausted.
    - croes 4y ago
      Why? We are not talking about mentally unstable people but people with severe medical condition. Why is it more acceptable to list all possibilities to prolong a life in pain but not to reduce the time to suffer?
- smnrchrds 4y ago
  Weren't all veteran cases due to one employee who was not a medical professional and was suspended when reported? Maybe there is a systematic issue, but I haven't seen evidence of that yet.
kneebonian 4y ago
A couple of excerpts from the article > In May, Victoria took a hard look at their budget. They couldn’t go on like this for long. “Mom,” Joan recalled Victoria telling her, “I don’t think we can survive. We have to apply for MAiD.” > She had known that her 23-year-old son, Kiano Vafaeian, was depressed—he was diabetic and had lost his vision in one eye, and he didn’t have a job or girlfriend or much of a future... That was when Marsilla learned that Kiano had applied and, in late July, been approved for “medical assistance in dying,” aka MAiD, aka assisted suicide. > Indeed, in some Canadian provinces nearly 5 percent of deaths are MAiD deaths. In 2021, the province of Quebec reported that 4.7 percent of deaths in the province were due to MAiD; in British Columbia, the number was 4.8 percent. > Next March, the government is scheduled to expand the pool of eligible suicide-seekers to include the mentally ill and “mature minors.” > In October 2020, the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer issued a report stating that MAiD would cut healthcare costs by over $66 million. > In 2017, Aaron Trachtenberg, a research fellow and a doctor at the University of Manitoba, and Braden Manns, a health economist and nephrologist at the University of Calgary, published a paper predicting that MAiD could slash healthcare costs by as much as $100 million yearly. > He added: “When we have people who are genuinely suffering, and we don’t provide them options for dignified living, but we provide them with what we label as a painless death,
- jimmyjazz14 4y ago
  Is this for real, it almost seems to shocking to be true.
  - jamal-kumar 4y ago
    Yes it is. I'm making preparations to leave the country real. It is essential for my health and waiting a month just to see a GP isn't the kind of place I want to reside. This is in the middle of a huge public healthcare crisis, for context [1] [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-health-care-system-collapse-1.6590461 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-health-care-system...
    - ecpottinger 4y ago
mabbo 4y ago
As a Canadian, I'm mostly okay with the system because I don't think it's changed much. My grandmother was nearing her end a few decades ago- very fast moving lung cancer- long before these options were legally available. She was terrified of being unable to breath, dying from that. Her doctor looked her in the eye and said "I promise you, you won't die that way if you don't want to". And she didn't. Medical assisted suicide for terminal patients has always existed, in the shadows. Now it's just legitimized and being done openly. I have some concerns over depressed people dying when they might be able to get treatment to help them. I'm sure there are cases of this happening. But I also think most of those people were going to commit suicide on their own anyway. Now it's being done safely, in the sense that a failed suicide can make things even worse. I'd like to see more being done to ensure these people truly have no other options, but I also know that I'm not qualified to pass judgement. I have faith that the doctors and medical system are doing what they think is best, and that they know more than I do.
- Amezarak 4y ago
  People working in the system don't have the same faith. From the article: > In October 2020, the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer issued a report stating that MAiD would cut healthcare costs by over $66 million. In 2017, Aaron Trachtenberg, a research fellow and a doctor at the University of Manitoba, and Braden Manns, a health economist and nephrologist at the University of Calgary, published a paper predicting that MAiD could slash healthcare costs by as much as $100 million yearly. > “I do worry MAiD is an easy solution to bed shortages and the terrible lack of resources patients are facing,” Dr. Ramona Coelho, a family physician in a suburb of Toronto, told me. She added that “the perverse disincentive that exists for administrators and governments with providing MAiD rather than care and resources to live can present a real danger to the lives of vulnerable or marginalized persons.” There have also been reports of medical staff pressuring patients to sign up for MAiD to save the government money. https://nypost.com/2022/11/08/canadian-man-assisted-suicide-being-pushed-on-me-by-hospital/ https://nypost.com/2022/11/08/canadian-man-assisted-suicide-... > “They asked if I want an assisted death. I don’t. I was told that I would be charged $1,800 per day [for hospital care]. I have $2 million worth of bills. Nurses here told me that I should end my life. That shocked me.” In the US, "medical error" is the third leading cause of death. Nurses and doctors are regularly fired or sued for serious wrongdoing. There's good ones and bad ones, competent ones and incompetent ones. Every profession is a mixed bag. I am sure it is no different in Canada. You can never, ever, trust a system. You can trust individuals.
jscipione 4y ago
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jamal-kumar 4y ago
I've come back to this country and have had two people with mental illnesses tell me they want to apply for this shit, which aren't being properly addressed because you basically have to be committed to a mental institution in order to get proper mental healthcare here. I honestly think it's fucked. The provision for this and mental health issues which they're just not even fucking trying to treat just makes my blood boil. Look I honestly think it should be a thing, people should have the right to access to this for terminal illnesses and all that which it makes absolute sense for - but implementing it in the middle of a huge public healthcare crisis [1] is the worst timing ever. I waited a month just to see a GP for a simple prescription refill. And before you tell me I'm complaining about something that's free, I returned to Canada with a 16k medical bill because I didn't declare I left the province, as it turns out something called medical service premiums are a thing in some provinces. All to come back to waiting a month for a GP? I'm paying this shit off, and leaving forever. A lot of other smart people have too. Hey check out this guy in this news report, he has like BACK PAIN ISSUES and is being encouraged to do this shit. Oh sorry unfit for work eh? Well sorry that's too bad cocks gun [2] [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-health-care-system-collapse-1.6590461 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-health-care-system... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up5k2Lx5SPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up5k2Lx5SPI
- throwntoday 4y ago
  The particularly disgusting part is discussing savings to the healthcare system. They're not even trying to be opaque about it. My fear is it becoming so normalized that anyone going through a bout of depression will be influenced by people online and the healthcare system to go forward with this. Truly breaks my heart.
  - jamal-kumar 4y ago
    I don't really think things are going to get THAT bleak just because I understand this to be at the discretion of individual doctors and it just feels a bit like a slippery slope fallacious argument. But the way things are NOW is pretty bleak, I mean they're definitely looking at it in a utilitarian money saving way. I've always been a supporter of medically assisted dying but you have to be so incredibly careful in implementing it. I don't think this is a great example of a fantastic implementation when you have people who are already on the edge of treatable mental illness crisis situations who simply aren't getting the best treatment they could be getting, publicly considering suicide with their friends. Like it just isn't what I would call the kind of society I'd like to live in, just hearing that is beyond stressful bullshit. I've already lost enough people to that. It just makes the general mental health climate feel soured. There's TV commercials promoting it and shit, and it just sends off huge NO bells in my mind. [1] I mean sure if you have cancer and everything didn't work and it's just excrutiating pain? Dementia and you are on the verge of aspiration pneumonia because you forgot how to eat? There's tons of conditions I have it in mind for but mental health problems is not the business... Anyways I am on my way to the tropics again for sunshine and happiness haha [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGQieHW8rQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGQieHW8rQU
codetrotter 4y ago
> Today, thousands of people who could live for many years are applying—successfully—to kill themselves. If someone is living in suffering, it is better to give them the option to end their life if they want, than to insist that they keep on living just because they “could” continue to live for many years more.
- okasaki 4y ago
  It's not really clear that that is true. It may be true in some situations, but there's a big cost to having a legal framework where people can choose to die (and who can claim they haven't at some point in their lives?) and others can kill them without punishment (and even get paid to do it)
  - mrkeen 4y ago
    If you already have doctors and anaesthesiologists, why would there be excessive costs on the legal side of things? I can only imagine big expenses if there were a lengthy legal battle every time (like death row inmates in the US).
- gedy 4y ago
  > If someone is living in suffering, it is better to give them the option to end their life if they want, than to insist that they keep on living Problem with statements like that is defining "suffering" such that inappropriate situation like a depressed teenager isn't allowed to happen.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  If you read many examples, it would be even better to actually fix the simple causes of their suffering, such as a few hundred dollars per month. This seems like carte blanche to slowly take away all complex social care programs, and just have the resulting suffering people kill themselves.
  - aksss 4y ago
    Or just reduce the number of customers. It’s working the demand side of the situation, hence them trumpeting the annual cost savings. Underneath all of this society is messaging that it has too many people, particularly a growing body of people not contributing in a substantial way to the well-being of that society. Some people are worth more dead than alive to government actuaries.
PuppyTailWags 4y ago
Do we have broader studies on how many MAiD applicants are applicants due to economic hardship or lack of other resources, vs terminal illness or unbearable chronic illness? The article points to multiple MAiD support networks existing; has anyone surveyed them?
quacked 4y ago
This is one of those things that seems so made-up I don't even have emotions about it. This article claims similar things that various far-right propagandists claim about the Canadian healthcare system--if you're depressed, the government will kill you for free, but you'll have to wait until an appointment opens up. It's such an absurd dystopian science-fiction concept that I have to assume it's false, and that every report of assisted suicide for someone other a terminally ill person is in some part fabricated. If these stories are not fabricated, and the government really is voluntarily euthanizing depressed people, then were I a citizen I'd be seriously thinking about [redacted] the Canadian government.
- kneebonian 4y ago
  Let me present some additional sources then: https://unherd.com/thepost/leaked-slides-reveal-dark-side-of-canadas-euthanasia-policy/?mc_cid=514c4ce399&mc_eid=8e4a4f6278 https://unherd.com/thepost/leaked-slides-reveal-dark-side-of... > But her organisation’s internal training seminars tell an entirely different story. In a seminar tellingly titled “Accessing Alternatives to MAiD: What is the role of the MAiD Assessor when resources are inadequate?”, Althea Gibb-Carsley, a recently retired MAiD professional in Vancouver, documents several real-life cases of patients who have sought to die because of a lack of housing or of other resources. > What euthanasia providers don’t say out loud is that a patient who is turned down by one assessor can simply “doctor shop” for another one until a willing assessor is found. In another CAMAP seminar, Dr Ellen Wiebe describes a case of a man who was rejected by a MAiD assessor for the procedure because, as Raikin writes, “he did not have a serious illness or the ‘capacity to make informed decisions about his own personal health.'” But a pro-euthanasia group connected him with Dr Wiebe, a prominent MAiD supporter who was previously accused by a Vancouver Jewish nursing home of sneaking in to euthanise one of its patients (to which she admitted; the provincial medical regulator cleared her of wrongdoing). As she recounts, she performed an assessment online, found him eligible, found another assessor who agreed with her, and drove him from the airport to her clinic, where she “provided for him” or, in other words, ended his life. > One 55-year-old woman who sought to die “identifies poverty as the driver of her MAiD request – food insufficiency and inability to access appropriate treatments”. The slide (above) points out that “what she really needs” is “an extra $600 or so /month”. Another patient, a 57-year-old man and published author, identified lack of housing and lack of access to medical care among the reasons for his request to die. He had been told that obtaining social housing would take between three and six years; he planned to “stretch credit to the edges then […] set final date” for his death. https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-is-canada-euthanising-the-poor/ https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-is-canada-euthanisin... > Many in the healthcare sector came to the same conclusion. Even before Bill C-7 was enacted, reports of abuse were rife. A man with a neurodegenerative disease testified to Parliament that nurses and a medical ethicist at a hospital tried to coerce him into killing himself by threatening to bankrupt him with extra costs or by kicking him out of the hospital, and by withholding water from him for 20 days. Virtually every disability rights group in the country opposed the new law. To no effect: for once, the government found it convenient to ignore these otherwise impeccably progressive groups. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/paralympian-claims-canada-offered-to-euthanise-her-when-she-asked-for-a-stairlift/ar-AA14RLpW https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/paralympian-claims-cana... > Paralympian claims Canada offered to euthanise her when she asked for a stairlift These are just a few quick searches that corroborate what is discussed in the article.
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ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago
Canadian society is such a failed society at this point that even to die you need to wait for months to get an appointment.
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mradek 4y ago
Sounds dystopian. I’d rather we get people the help they need than start suggesting death to anyone who is suffering, even those not facing terminal illness etc. Is life really that unimportant these days?
ttul 4y ago
The ”Free Press” is a Substack site published by Bari Weiss, an American journalist whose point of view has been described as conservative, even “provocative.” I think a degree of critical thinking should be engaged when reading anything she puts out. Her standard journalism is, at best, “opinion.” This article, like many others I have come across in recent months, describes medical assistance in dying (MAiD) as if it’s metastasizing into Canada’s leading cause of death - the ultimate escape from any form of suffering whatsoever. The reality is that prior to MAiD, many people were assisted in their death, under the radar, by a compassionate palliative care doctor or nurse, who would show the patient how to turn the knob up on their fentanyl drip. Those less fortunate would commit suicide in more brutal ways, something with which we are all doubtless far too familiar. The terminally ill were forced to suffer a terrible end of life, all in the name of persisting life at all costs - including human dignity. The question we all should be asking is this: is it right for someone to have the freedom to choose the time and manner of their own death? People do it already through suicide, but it’s not a nice ending. Suicide generates a good deal of family shame to go along with the suffering of self-administered death. Nobody likes death, but it is inevitable. The question Canada asked - and answered - is that a compassionate death should be an option for those who wish it for themselves when they have no reasonable prospect of turning around a terrible situation from which there is no reasonable prospect of recovery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bari_Weiss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bari_Weiss
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > whose point of view has been described as conservative, even “provocative.” I think a degree of critical thinking should be engaged when reading anything she puts out. Should a degree of critical thinking not be engaged when reading things put out by people with liberal points of view?
  - ttul 4y ago
    Assisted death is a liberal concept; social conservatives criticize it because, in the conservative worldview [1], any form of self-determined death is considered immoral. In light of the conservative view of this issue, it is useful to apply a critical eye. 1. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/assisted-dying-bill-ottawa-1.5783194 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/assisted-dying-bill-ottawa-...
jmacd 4y ago
I'm a Canadian. I want every single person in this country to get the best care possible right up until they die. If they want to keep the care coming, then I expect us to keep providing it. God help me if you decide that because you are giving me care, you also get to decide when and how I die. I want to decide that and if I choose to go at an appointed time with my family nearby and in a comfortable setting, then I will go a happy man. Will everyone make a decision I agree with? Are many lives worth living even when they don't feel like it? Will families and loved ones not want to let go? Are some people not mentally well enough at the time to make such a decision? Yes to all. It's complicated and difficult, but it is only more complicated and more difficult when the state tries to create rules about what is morally right and not.
hackinthebochs 4y ago
I've seen a lot of consternation online regarding this program, with most of it simply presenting the idea of assisted suicide as self-evidently unconscionable. But why think so? Why should someone be forced to continue to live a life they have no interest in, regardless of the reason? This idea that the highest virtue is to continue breathing for as long as possible is probably an ideological holdout from our Christian past, where suffering was virtuous and our fates were in God's hands, not our own. The West has become largely secular, but our Christian forebearers still have immense influence.
- tsimionescu 4y ago
  The problem is that killing those whose lives are currently bad is much simpler than helping them fix their lives. That is the undesirable outcome - that those who aren't lucky just die, instead of making a system where everyone is well off enough that they don't feel death is better than going on living (except a very small handful of people with incurable painful or otherwise debilitating conditions, of course).
  - hackinthebochs 4y ago
    But that's not an argument against assisted suicide. If you don't like the choices people are making, absolutely offer them more options so they can choose otherwise. But if there is no willingness to fund these alternatives, forcing people to continue to suffer so that your aesthetic sense isn't offended isn't justifiable.
    - kneebonian 4y ago
      There is a difference between the argument against assisted suicide and an argument against the way Canada is doing assisted suicide. This article is about the latter not the former.
      - hackinthebochs 4y ago
        The article isn't really an argument against it either. It's simply presenting events with the understanding that people will see it as self-evidently unconscionable. I'm interested in arguments for this underlying assumption.
TheFreim 4y ago
My position on euthanasia and (assisted) suicide: > Those whose lives are diminished or weakened deserve special respect. Sick or handicapped persons should be helped to lead lives as normal as possible. > Whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons. It is morally unacceptable. > Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator. The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded. > Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of “over-zealous” treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one’s inability to impede it is merely accepted. The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected. > Even if death is thought imminent, the ordinary care owed to a sick person cannot be legitimately interrupted. The use of painkillers to alleviate the sufferings of the dying, even at the risk of shortening their days, can be morally in conformity with human dignity if death is not willed as either an end or a means, but only foreseen and tolerated as inevitable. Palliative care is a special form of disinterested charity. As such it should be encouraged. > Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of. > Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God. > If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law. > Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide. > We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives. Taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraphs 2276-2283
FpUser 4y ago
Waiting for something like: apply for early MAID, receive 10% bonus to your pension. I think that given enough time this MAID thing will be commercialized and grossly abused.
eulers_secret 4y ago
Wow, I had no idea assisted suicide due to economic circumstance was already a thing. It's so tragic that society has failed many people, and now instead of the extra help they need, they're just given the option to be killed outright. Personal anecdote: I intend to end my life with suicide. The circumstances would likely be when I get a terminal disease. Dragging out end-of-life is very traumatic for those around you. I have personal experience here. I could also see myself deciding to die over economic reasons: If I'm forced out of tech at ~45-55 (because ageism is very real), then I'll probably plan to die whenever I run out of money. If I can't make rent, and I can't work, and there's no help, suicide is an option to stop the pain. I'd rather be dead than homeless (because of how society treats them). I already have my plans, going to build an 'exit pod'. Nitrogen asphyxiation with CO2 scrubbers, and some kind of tech to determine I really am dead and contact EMS (arduino+ekg or O2 SAT and a phone) with a message about the situation. Trying to decrease trauma to others because of my death. The cruelty with which we treat normal people, even in the best situation on earth that ever has been, is absolutely shocking and disgusting. It's hard to accept that human life has no intrinsic value: Once we're no longer useful to our 'betters', we are culled. If you cannot produce economic value, those in power think you are better off dead.
- sambapa 4y ago
  If you run out of money in the future then simply open suicide pod business because that design sounds great.
  - throwaway049 4y ago
    Going to be difficult to build a brand on customer reviews though.
    - aksss 4y ago
      Customer reviews will be the family and government agencies as often as not. “Congrats on getting arrested for the fifth time - you can go through rehab again or you can get a voucher for Bob’s Pod private MAID service. This also includes dinner and a night in a hotel chain of your choice.”
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matthewmacleod 4y ago
HN's attitude on this stuff is pretty weird to me. Articles about Canada's assisted dying program have been repeatedly posted here, and all of them seem to be quite clearly pushing a non-neutral agenda on the issue. The thing that most clearly stands out in this example is the heavy focus on anecdote and the underhanded use of context-free numbers meant to sound shocking, and you can see the effort working in the comments. I'm pretty surprised, because I'd've imagined assisted dying programs would be one of the most embraced things by the "soft libertarian" sort of crowd attracted by this site. It would be nice to see articles that actually explored what was happening a bit more; there was a good example in The Guardian a couple of years ago that seemed like an interesting exploration of the issue, rather than a cart-before-the horse article like this https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jan/18/death-on-demand-has-euthanasia-gone-too-far-netherlands-assisted-dying https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jan/18/death-on-demand...
- kneebonian 4y ago
  The recent rash of discussion around it has not been around assisted suicide in general but specifically on how Canada has implemented it, which is a different discussion.
  - matthewmacleod 4y ago
    It's not really a different discussion, no – one of the first things an article that was actually interested in this issue would do would be to contextualise the Canadian implementation with respect to the rest of the world. Are there thing that make it noticeably worse, or more subject to abuse? There might be – but we'll never find out from articles like this which go out of their way to avoid questioning that.
e_i_pi_2 4y ago
I definitely support assisted suicide, but not for economic reasons. If someone feels helpless because they can't afford a house or food that should be given to them. I think we're a little ahead of the curve here because we don't have robust safety nets yet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xsVORMDqU0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xsVORMDqU0 This is a great video on the topic from Canadians, it's 90mins but has good info and different perspectives
gptadmirer 4y ago
This should be celebrated! I don’t think there will be negatives. There are only positives that can come with this. - lots of people can’t take it anymore living in this cruel world without good job and economic prospects, or looking at the bleak environmental future - less people on Earth will make the Earth have a chance of recovering - labor will be more valued, less competition - less demand for housing, making housing cheaper - less demand for education, goods and services, making it lower in price - less strain on the economy by people who can’t contribute - we can donate the organs to healthy people who need it more - we can use bodies for science
- trash3 4y ago
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bigbluedots 4y ago
Any assisted dying program has very difficult factors to weigh to decide which set of circumstances warrant its use. Anecdata: A long time ago I was a depressed teenager who would likely have passed any 'mature minor' test. If such a program was available at the time I would likely not be here today; it turns out that the intervening years have very much been worth living. I don't agree with the bar being set as low as it seemingly will be in Canada's case.
nitwit005 4y ago
You can find a collection of individual stories that make any health program seem grim and tragic. They all fail some people. What matters is the rate of these problems, which you'll notice this article never lists. This seems to be a common trend among articles critical of this program. It's possible there is no good data on how well the program is performing, but then you should be honest enough to admit that.
lenkite 4y ago
Only a matter of time before you are 'professionally' advised to MaiD by society if you are not successful. The govt can remove all social security and welfare benefits and stimulate economic growth! No need to support unproductive trash - if you aren't contributing $$$ in taxes or paying $$$ in political donations - its time for you to be gently kicked into the night!

121 points by sfusato 4y ago

Unfortunately the rollout of the program in the Canadian military veteran community leaves something to be desired as well; numerous vets calling for assistance kept being informed of the assisted suicide program versus getting the help they had asked for. Considering how it's starting to make news waves in Canada i'm surprised they don't mention it at all. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted-death-macaulay-1.6671721 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christine-gauthier-assisted...

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croes 4y ago
The problem is, how do you communicate the possibility without it being perceived as a suggestion?
- kneebonian 4y ago
  There's a strict law in other places that a provider can never bring up the option, it must always be a patient initiated discussion.
  - croes 4y ago
    If you don't know this option exists, you won't necessarily mention it voluntarily for fear of being committed to a psychiatric ward.
    - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
      This is very real and dystopian. If they hear that you're suicidal you'll get a straight-jacket and involuntarily medicated but if they see your broken ankle they'll suicide you for free.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  You dont, it should NEVER be offered as a possibility, only if the person directly inquires about it should be talk about
  - tejohnso 4y ago
    Why should options be held back? I'd want to know all options available to me for whatever my scenario is rather than being treated like a child who can't decide for themselves. When I ask for help I want all reasonable possibilities presented because I'm not going to think of everything.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      Have you seen some of the videos coming out of Canada, where "doctors" who are more or less agents of the state have presented that not as an option, but the best option. For example there was one person that was trying to get In-Home nursing, which my understanding was an option but the "doctor" kept pushing suicide as the better choice, this person clearly did not want to die, but it was being pushed as the first option for them. The perverse incentives of state run healthcare combined with a suicide option opens up all manner of abuse, and unintended results.
    - Jarwain 4y ago
      In a general situation, yeah sure that makes sense. But this is Death. It's always an option, everyone knows it's an option, and sometimes it's an easier option. Leaving it to the person to suggest makes it the last resort, and ensures all other options have been exhausted.
  - croes 4y ago
    Why? We are not talking about mentally unstable people but people with severe medical condition. Why is it more acceptable to list all possibilities to prolong a life in pain but not to reduce the time to suffer?
smnrchrds 4y ago
Weren't all veteran cases due to one employee who was not a medical professional and was suspended when reported? Maybe there is a systematic issue, but I haven't seen evidence of that yet.

kneebonian 4y ago

A couple of excerpts from the article > In May, Victoria took a hard look at their budget. They couldn’t go on like this for long. “Mom,” Joan recalled Victoria telling her, “I don’t think we can survive. We have to apply for MAiD.” > She had known that her 23-year-old son, Kiano Vafaeian, was depressed—he was diabetic and had lost his vision in one eye, and he didn’t have a job or girlfriend or much of a future... That was when Marsilla learned that Kiano had applied and, in late July, been approved for “medical assistance in dying,” aka MAiD, aka assisted suicide. > Indeed, in some Canadian provinces nearly 5 percent of deaths are MAiD deaths. In 2021, the province of Quebec reported that 4.7 percent of deaths in the province were due to MAiD; in British Columbia, the number was 4.8 percent. > Next March, the government is scheduled to expand the pool of eligible suicide-seekers to include the mentally ill and “mature minors.” > In October 2020, the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer issued a report stating that MAiD would cut healthcare costs by over $66 million. > In 2017, Aaron Trachtenberg, a research fellow and a doctor at the University of Manitoba, and Braden Manns, a health economist and nephrologist at the University of Calgary, published a paper predicting that MAiD could slash healthcare costs by as much as $100 million yearly. > He added: “When we have people who are genuinely suffering, and we don’t provide them options for dignified living, but we provide them with what we label as a painless death,

jimmyjazz14 4y ago
Is this for real, it almost seems to shocking to be true.
- jamal-kumar 4y ago
  Yes it is. I'm making preparations to leave the country real. It is essential for my health and waiting a month just to see a GP isn't the kind of place I want to reside. This is in the middle of a huge public healthcare crisis, for context [1] [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-health-care-system-collapse-1.6590461 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-health-care-system...
  - ecpottinger 4y ago

mabbo 4y ago

As a Canadian, I'm mostly okay with the system because I don't think it's changed much. My grandmother was nearing her end a few decades ago- very fast moving lung cancer- long before these options were legally available. She was terrified of being unable to breath, dying from that. Her doctor looked her in the eye and said "I promise you, you won't die that way if you don't want to". And she didn't. Medical assisted suicide for terminal patients has always existed, in the shadows. Now it's just legitimized and being done openly. I have some concerns over depressed people dying when they might be able to get treatment to help them. I'm sure there are cases of this happening. But I also think most of those people were going to commit suicide on their own anyway. Now it's being done safely, in the sense that a failed suicide can make things even worse. I'd like to see more being done to ensure these people truly have no other options, but I also know that I'm not qualified to pass judgement. I have faith that the doctors and medical system are doing what they think is best, and that they know more than I do.

Amezarak 4y ago
People working in the system don't have the same faith. From the article: > In October 2020, the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer issued a report stating that MAiD would cut healthcare costs by over $66 million. In 2017, Aaron Trachtenberg, a research fellow and a doctor at the University of Manitoba, and Braden Manns, a health economist and nephrologist at the University of Calgary, published a paper predicting that MAiD could slash healthcare costs by as much as $100 million yearly. > “I do worry MAiD is an easy solution to bed shortages and the terrible lack of resources patients are facing,” Dr. Ramona Coelho, a family physician in a suburb of Toronto, told me. She added that “the perverse disincentive that exists for administrators and governments with providing MAiD rather than care and resources to live can present a real danger to the lives of vulnerable or marginalized persons.” There have also been reports of medical staff pressuring patients to sign up for MAiD to save the government money. https://nypost.com/2022/11/08/canadian-man-assisted-suicide-being-pushed-on-me-by-hospital/ https://nypost.com/2022/11/08/canadian-man-assisted-suicide-... > “They asked if I want an assisted death. I don’t. I was told that I would be charged $1,800 per day [for hospital care]. I have $2 million worth of bills. Nurses here told me that I should end my life. That shocked me.” In the US, "medical error" is the third leading cause of death. Nurses and doctors are regularly fired or sued for serious wrongdoing. There's good ones and bad ones, competent ones and incompetent ones. Every profession is a mixed bag. I am sure it is no different in Canada. You can never, ever, trust a system. You can trust individuals.

jscipione 4y ago

[flagged]

jamal-kumar 4y ago

I've come back to this country and have had two people with mental illnesses tell me they want to apply for this shit, which aren't being properly addressed because you basically have to be committed to a mental institution in order to get proper mental healthcare here. I honestly think it's fucked. The provision for this and mental health issues which they're just not even fucking trying to treat just makes my blood boil. Look I honestly think it should be a thing, people should have the right to access to this for terminal illnesses and all that which it makes absolute sense for - but implementing it in the middle of a huge public healthcare crisis [1] is the worst timing ever. I waited a month just to see a GP for a simple prescription refill. And before you tell me I'm complaining about something that's free, I returned to Canada with a 16k medical bill because I didn't declare I left the province, as it turns out something called medical service premiums are a thing in some provinces. All to come back to waiting a month for a GP? I'm paying this shit off, and leaving forever. A lot of other smart people have too. Hey check out this guy in this news report, he has like BACK PAIN ISSUES and is being encouraged to do this shit. Oh sorry unfit for work eh? Well sorry that's too bad cocks gun [2] [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-health-care-system-collapse-1.6590461 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadian-health-care-system... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up5k2Lx5SPI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up5k2Lx5SPI

throwntoday 4y ago
The particularly disgusting part is discussing savings to the healthcare system. They're not even trying to be opaque about it. My fear is it becoming so normalized that anyone going through a bout of depression will be influenced by people online and the healthcare system to go forward with this. Truly breaks my heart.
- jamal-kumar 4y ago
  I don't really think things are going to get THAT bleak just because I understand this to be at the discretion of individual doctors and it just feels a bit like a slippery slope fallacious argument. But the way things are NOW is pretty bleak, I mean they're definitely looking at it in a utilitarian money saving way. I've always been a supporter of medically assisted dying but you have to be so incredibly careful in implementing it. I don't think this is a great example of a fantastic implementation when you have people who are already on the edge of treatable mental illness crisis situations who simply aren't getting the best treatment they could be getting, publicly considering suicide with their friends. Like it just isn't what I would call the kind of society I'd like to live in, just hearing that is beyond stressful bullshit. I've already lost enough people to that. It just makes the general mental health climate feel soured. There's TV commercials promoting it and shit, and it just sends off huge NO bells in my mind. [1] I mean sure if you have cancer and everything didn't work and it's just excrutiating pain? Dementia and you are on the verge of aspiration pneumonia because you forgot how to eat? There's tons of conditions I have it in mind for but mental health problems is not the business... Anyways I am on my way to the tropics again for sunshine and happiness haha [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGQieHW8rQU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGQieHW8rQU

codetrotter 4y ago

> Today, thousands of people who could live for many years are applying—successfully—to kill themselves. If someone is living in suffering, it is better to give them the option to end their life if they want, than to insist that they keep on living just because they “could” continue to live for many years more.

okasaki 4y ago
It's not really clear that that is true. It may be true in some situations, but there's a big cost to having a legal framework where people can choose to die (and who can claim they haven't at some point in their lives?) and others can kill them without punishment (and even get paid to do it)
- mrkeen 4y ago
  If you already have doctors and anaesthesiologists, why would there be excessive costs on the legal side of things? I can only imagine big expenses if there were a lengthy legal battle every time (like death row inmates in the US).
gedy 4y ago
> If someone is living in suffering, it is better to give them the option to end their life if they want, than to insist that they keep on living Problem with statements like that is defining "suffering" such that inappropriate situation like a depressed teenager isn't allowed to happen.
tsimionescu 4y ago
If you read many examples, it would be even better to actually fix the simple causes of their suffering, such as a few hundred dollars per month. This seems like carte blanche to slowly take away all complex social care programs, and just have the resulting suffering people kill themselves.
- aksss 4y ago
  Or just reduce the number of customers. It’s working the demand side of the situation, hence them trumpeting the annual cost savings. Underneath all of this society is messaging that it has too many people, particularly a growing body of people not contributing in a substantial way to the well-being of that society. Some people are worth more dead than alive to government actuaries.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago

Do we have broader studies on how many MAiD applicants are applicants due to economic hardship or lack of other resources, vs terminal illness or unbearable chronic illness? The article points to multiple MAiD support networks existing; has anyone surveyed them?

quacked 4y ago

This is one of those things that seems so made-up I don't even have emotions about it. This article claims similar things that various far-right propagandists claim about the Canadian healthcare system--if you're depressed, the government will kill you for free, but you'll have to wait until an appointment opens up. It's such an absurd dystopian science-fiction concept that I have to assume it's false, and that every report of assisted suicide for someone other a terminally ill person is in some part fabricated. If these stories are not fabricated, and the government really is voluntarily euthanizing depressed people, then were I a citizen I'd be seriously thinking about [redacted] the Canadian government.

kneebonian 4y ago
Let me present some additional sources then: https://unherd.com/thepost/leaked-slides-reveal-dark-side-of-canadas-euthanasia-policy/?mc_cid=514c4ce399&mc_eid=8e4a4f6278 https://unherd.com/thepost/leaked-slides-reveal-dark-side-of... > But her organisation’s internal training seminars tell an entirely different story. In a seminar tellingly titled “Accessing Alternatives to MAiD: What is the role of the MAiD Assessor when resources are inadequate?”, Althea Gibb-Carsley, a recently retired MAiD professional in Vancouver, documents several real-life cases of patients who have sought to die because of a lack of housing or of other resources. > What euthanasia providers don’t say out loud is that a patient who is turned down by one assessor can simply “doctor shop” for another one until a willing assessor is found. In another CAMAP seminar, Dr Ellen Wiebe describes a case of a man who was rejected by a MAiD assessor for the procedure because, as Raikin writes, “he did not have a serious illness or the ‘capacity to make informed decisions about his own personal health.'” But a pro-euthanasia group connected him with Dr Wiebe, a prominent MAiD supporter who was previously accused by a Vancouver Jewish nursing home of sneaking in to euthanise one of its patients (to which she admitted; the provincial medical regulator cleared her of wrongdoing). As she recounts, she performed an assessment online, found him eligible, found another assessor who agreed with her, and drove him from the airport to her clinic, where she “provided for him” or, in other words, ended his life. > One 55-year-old woman who sought to die “identifies poverty as the driver of her MAiD request – food insufficiency and inability to access appropriate treatments”. The slide (above) points out that “what she really needs” is “an extra $600 or so /month”. Another patient, a 57-year-old man and published author, identified lack of housing and lack of access to medical care among the reasons for his request to die. He had been told that obtaining social housing would take between three and six years; he planned to “stretch credit to the edges then […] set final date” for his death. https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-is-canada-euthanising-the-poor/ https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-is-canada-euthanisin... > Many in the healthcare sector came to the same conclusion. Even before Bill C-7 was enacted, reports of abuse were rife. A man with a neurodegenerative disease testified to Parliament that nurses and a medical ethicist at a hospital tried to coerce him into killing himself by threatening to bankrupt him with extra costs or by kicking him out of the hospital, and by withholding water from him for 20 days. Virtually every disability rights group in the country opposed the new law. To no effect: for once, the government found it convenient to ignore these otherwise impeccably progressive groups. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/paralympian-claims-canada-offered-to-euthanise-her-when-she-asked-for-a-stairlift/ar-AA14RLpW https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/paralympian-claims-cana... > Paralympian claims Canada offered to euthanise her when she asked for a stairlift These are just a few quick searches that corroborate what is discussed in the article.

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ilrwbwrkhv 4y ago

Canadian society is such a failed society at this point that even to die you need to wait for months to get an appointment.

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mradek 4y ago

Sounds dystopian. I’d rather we get people the help they need than start suggesting death to anyone who is suffering, even those not facing terminal illness etc. Is life really that unimportant these days?

ttul 4y ago

The ”Free Press” is a Substack site published by Bari Weiss, an American journalist whose point of view has been described as conservative, even “provocative.” I think a degree of critical thinking should be engaged when reading anything she puts out. Her standard journalism is, at best, “opinion.” This article, like many others I have come across in recent months, describes medical assistance in dying (MAiD) as if it’s metastasizing into Canada’s leading cause of death - the ultimate escape from any form of suffering whatsoever. The reality is that prior to MAiD, many people were assisted in their death, under the radar, by a compassionate palliative care doctor or nurse, who would show the patient how to turn the knob up on their fentanyl drip. Those less fortunate would commit suicide in more brutal ways, something with which we are all doubtless far too familiar. The terminally ill were forced to suffer a terrible end of life, all in the name of persisting life at all costs - including human dignity. The question we all should be asking is this: is it right for someone to have the freedom to choose the time and manner of their own death? People do it already through suicide, but it’s not a nice ending. Suicide generates a good deal of family shame to go along with the suffering of self-administered death. Nobody likes death, but it is inevitable. The question Canada asked - and answered - is that a compassionate death should be an option for those who wish it for themselves when they have no reasonable prospect of turning around a terrible situation from which there is no reasonable prospect of recovery. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bari_Weiss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bari_Weiss

josephcsible 4y ago
> whose point of view has been described as conservative, even “provocative.” I think a degree of critical thinking should be engaged when reading anything she puts out. Should a degree of critical thinking not be engaged when reading things put out by people with liberal points of view?
- ttul 4y ago
  Assisted death is a liberal concept; social conservatives criticize it because, in the conservative worldview [1], any form of self-determined death is considered immoral. In light of the conservative view of this issue, it is useful to apply a critical eye. 1. https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/assisted-dying-bill-ottawa-1.5783194 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/assisted-dying-bill-ottawa-...

jmacd 4y ago

I'm a Canadian. I want every single person in this country to get the best care possible right up until they die. If they want to keep the care coming, then I expect us to keep providing it. God help me if you decide that because you are giving me care, you also get to decide when and how I die. I want to decide that and if I choose to go at an appointed time with my family nearby and in a comfortable setting, then I will go a happy man. Will everyone make a decision I agree with? Are many lives worth living even when they don't feel like it? Will families and loved ones not want to let go? Are some people not mentally well enough at the time to make such a decision? Yes to all. It's complicated and difficult, but it is only more complicated and more difficult when the state tries to create rules about what is morally right and not.

hackinthebochs 4y ago

I've seen a lot of consternation online regarding this program, with most of it simply presenting the idea of assisted suicide as self-evidently unconscionable. But why think so? Why should someone be forced to continue to live a life they have no interest in, regardless of the reason? This idea that the highest virtue is to continue breathing for as long as possible is probably an ideological holdout from our Christian past, where suffering was virtuous and our fates were in God's hands, not our own. The West has become largely secular, but our Christian forebearers still have immense influence.

tsimionescu 4y ago
The problem is that killing those whose lives are currently bad is much simpler than helping them fix their lives. That is the undesirable outcome - that those who aren't lucky just die, instead of making a system where everyone is well off enough that they don't feel death is better than going on living (except a very small handful of people with incurable painful or otherwise debilitating conditions, of course).
- hackinthebochs 4y ago
  But that's not an argument against assisted suicide. If you don't like the choices people are making, absolutely offer them more options so they can choose otherwise. But if there is no willingness to fund these alternatives, forcing people to continue to suffer so that your aesthetic sense isn't offended isn't justifiable.
  - kneebonian 4y ago
    There is a difference between the argument against assisted suicide and an argument against the way Canada is doing assisted suicide. This article is about the latter not the former.
    - hackinthebochs 4y ago
      The article isn't really an argument against it either. It's simply presenting events with the understanding that people will see it as self-evidently unconscionable. I'm interested in arguments for this underlying assumption.

TheFreim 4y ago

My position on euthanasia and (assisted) suicide: > Those whose lives are diminished or weakened deserve special respect. Sick or handicapped persons should be helped to lead lives as normal as possible. > Whatever its motives and means, direct euthanasia consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons. It is morally unacceptable. > Thus an act or omission which, of itself or by intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator. The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded. > Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of “over-zealous” treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one’s inability to impede it is merely accepted. The decisions should be made by the patient if he is competent and able or, if not, by those legally entitled to act for the patient, whose reasonable will and legitimate interests must always be respected. > Even if death is thought imminent, the ordinary care owed to a sick person cannot be legitimately interrupted. The use of painkillers to alleviate the sufferings of the dying, even at the risk of shortening their days, can be morally in conformity with human dignity if death is not willed as either an end or a means, but only foreseen and tolerated as inevitable. Palliative care is a special form of disinterested charity. As such it should be encouraged. > Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of. > Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God. > If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law. > Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide. > We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives. Taken from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraphs 2276-2283

FpUser 4y ago

Waiting for something like: apply for early MAID, receive 10% bonus to your pension. I think that given enough time this MAID thing will be commercialized and grossly abused.

eulers_secret 4y ago

Wow, I had no idea assisted suicide due to economic circumstance was already a thing. It's so tragic that society has failed many people, and now instead of the extra help they need, they're just given the option to be killed outright. Personal anecdote: I intend to end my life with suicide. The circumstances would likely be when I get a terminal disease. Dragging out end-of-life is very traumatic for those around you. I have personal experience here. I could also see myself deciding to die over economic reasons: If I'm forced out of tech at ~45-55 (because ageism is very real), then I'll probably plan to die whenever I run out of money. If I can't make rent, and I can't work, and there's no help, suicide is an option to stop the pain. I'd rather be dead than homeless (because of how society treats them). I already have my plans, going to build an 'exit pod'. Nitrogen asphyxiation with CO2 scrubbers, and some kind of tech to determine I really am dead and contact EMS (arduino+ekg or O2 SAT and a phone) with a message about the situation. Trying to decrease trauma to others because of my death. The cruelty with which we treat normal people, even in the best situation on earth that ever has been, is absolutely shocking and disgusting. It's hard to accept that human life has no intrinsic value: Once we're no longer useful to our 'betters', we are culled. If you cannot produce economic value, those in power think you are better off dead.

sambapa 4y ago
If you run out of money in the future then simply open suicide pod business because that design sounds great.
- throwaway049 4y ago
  Going to be difficult to build a brand on customer reviews though.
  - aksss 4y ago
    Customer reviews will be the family and government agencies as often as not. “Congrats on getting arrested for the fifth time - you can go through rehab again or you can get a voucher for Bob’s Pod private MAID service. This also includes dinner and a night in a hotel chain of your choice.”

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matthewmacleod 4y ago

HN's attitude on this stuff is pretty weird to me. Articles about Canada's assisted dying program have been repeatedly posted here, and all of them seem to be quite clearly pushing a non-neutral agenda on the issue. The thing that most clearly stands out in this example is the heavy focus on anecdote and the underhanded use of context-free numbers meant to sound shocking, and you can see the effort working in the comments. I'm pretty surprised, because I'd've imagined assisted dying programs would be one of the most embraced things by the "soft libertarian" sort of crowd attracted by this site. It would be nice to see articles that actually explored what was happening a bit more; there was a good example in The Guardian a couple of years ago that seemed like an interesting exploration of the issue, rather than a cart-before-the horse article like this https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jan/18/death-on-demand-has-euthanasia-gone-too-far-netherlands-assisted-dying https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/jan/18/death-on-demand...

kneebonian 4y ago
The recent rash of discussion around it has not been around assisted suicide in general but specifically on how Canada has implemented it, which is a different discussion.
- matthewmacleod 4y ago
  It's not really a different discussion, no – one of the first things an article that was actually interested in this issue would do would be to contextualise the Canadian implementation with respect to the rest of the world. Are there thing that make it noticeably worse, or more subject to abuse? There might be – but we'll never find out from articles like this which go out of their way to avoid questioning that.

e_i_pi_2 4y ago

I definitely support assisted suicide, but not for economic reasons. If someone feels helpless because they can't afford a house or food that should be given to them. I think we're a little ahead of the curve here because we don't have robust safety nets yet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xsVORMDqU0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xsVORMDqU0 This is a great video on the topic from Canadians, it's 90mins but has good info and different perspectives

gptadmirer 4y ago

This should be celebrated! I don’t think there will be negatives. There are only positives that can come with this. - lots of people can’t take it anymore living in this cruel world without good job and economic prospects, or looking at the bleak environmental future - less people on Earth will make the Earth have a chance of recovering - labor will be more valued, less competition - less demand for housing, making housing cheaper - less demand for education, goods and services, making it lower in price - less strain on the economy by people who can’t contribute - we can donate the organs to healthy people who need it more - we can use bodies for science

trash3 4y ago
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bigbluedots 4y ago

Any assisted dying program has very difficult factors to weigh to decide which set of circumstances warrant its use. Anecdata: A long time ago I was a depressed teenager who would likely have passed any 'mature minor' test. If such a program was available at the time I would likely not be here today; it turns out that the intervening years have very much been worth living. I don't agree with the bar being set as low as it seemingly will be in Canada's case.

nitwit005 4y ago

You can find a collection of individual stories that make any health program seem grim and tragic. They all fail some people. What matters is the rate of these problems, which you'll notice this article never lists. This seems to be a common trend among articles critical of this program. It's possible there is no good data on how well the program is performing, but then you should be honest enough to admit that.

lenkite 4y ago

Only a matter of time before you are 'professionally' advised to MaiD by society if you are not successful. The govt can remove all social security and welfare benefits and stimulate economic growth! No need to support unproductive trash - if you aren't contributing $$$ in taxes or paying $$$ in political donations - its time for you to be gently kicked into the night!