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I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I rea

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause mortality/harm in some cases. As long as vaccine side effects cause less deaths and less harm than the virus, vaccination is still the way to go. My position depends on us having a good understanding of the vaccine's effects however, and right now I feel like we don't.

lanstin 4y ago
Well your feeling is wrong. The data gathering to establish the risks is why we don't just update the mRNA monthly based on the latest viral RNA.
manwe150 4y ago
I agree it is good we keep funding studies to try to better understand and predict the effects of the vaccines. What would it mean to feel like we have a good understanding though? How would we quantify "god"? We have observed that the side-effects have minimal deviation from the normal variations observed in the population for those effects. And we also know it is highly dependent on individual characteristics as to who exhibits the worst side-effects or best antibody response.
- nulld3v 4y ago
  > What would it mean to feel like we have a good understanding though? How would we quantify "god"? That is a hard question and honestly I don't have the knowledge to answer it. > We have observed that the side-effects have minimal deviation from the normal variations observed in the population for those effects. And we also know it is highly dependent on individual characteristics as to who exhibits the worst side-effects or best antibody response. Yeah, I get that the vaccine can cause side effects for a very small minority of the population. I think what I want is for vaccine side-effects to be treated more like plane crashes. I get that bad things happen, but if it isn't cost-prohibitive, I would like to know why these things happened, even if they happen extremely rarely.
vannevar 4y ago
The problem here isn't the study---of course we should study possible vaccine side effects. The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. As unlikely as it is that an otherwise healthy young person will die from covid, it is even less likely that they'll die from a vaccine side effect. That's just a statistical fact at this point, we have millions of both covid cases and vaccinations to back that up. This study looked at 25 cases of unexpected death in people aged 46-75 and found 5 cases of myocarditis. Without any control group to compare to, there is literally nothing that can be drawn from this study about the risk presented by the vaccine, and the authors admit as much: "The nature of our autopsy study necessitates that the data are descriptive in quality and does not allow any epidemiological conclusions in terms of incidence or risk estimation."
- addingadimensio 4y ago
  - addingadimensio 4y ago
    - dang 4y ago
      We've banned this account for using HN primarily for ideological battle. You can't do that here, and yes that rule holds regardless of which ideology you're battling for or against. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- tempsy 4y ago
  Ok, so if you believe your chance of dying of covid is improbably small due to age and overall health, why is it necessary to be vaccinated even if there's only a small chance of side effects? Rare is not zero. I don't even take OTC pain killers like advil unless I absolutely feel like I have to.
gamacodre 4y ago
This has bugged me since the beginning of this mess. It ought to be possible to say "Hey this looks kind of funny, could the vaccines be having weird effects in this .0000001% of the population?" without daggers coming out all around. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that "The SARS-Cov-2 vaccines occasionally cause health problems" and "Almost everyone should get vaccinated/boosted" are both entirely true statements.
- danhak 4y ago
  The issue is that there were coercive government mandates. "Almost everyone should get vaccinated" does not mean the government should coerce everyone into making the correct medical decision by barring them from employment or access to private establishments. Absent a very compelling reason, people should be free to go against medical advice. People have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies. People have the right to make the wrong choice. In this case, the reason given for overriding that freedom was a highly specious argument that the unvaccinated were putting other people at significant risk. That argument did not pass the smell test from the very beginning.
  - ethanbond 4y ago
    You don't get to dismiss an argument by just declaring that it "didn't pass the smell test." That guidance was exactly in line with every counter-pathogen campaign since, Idk, before germ theory?
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    - mrguyorama 4y ago
      The worst part is that we have already comprehensively litigated all of this. The spanish flu had people protesting being forced to wear masks and other societal health measures and the Supreme court affirmed the US's right to mandate those kind of large scale health things.
mrtksn 4y ago
This paper doesn't claim that mRNA vaccines are dangerous, it investigates through autopsy 35 people in a region of Germany who died within 20 days of vaccination and only 5 of the deaths are found to show myocarditis of which only 3 somewhat might be attributed to the vaccine. This is not an expose of big Pharma or anything like that, I don't know why the HN comments are acting as if this is some kind of research supporting the anti vaxxer claims. If you look into the statistics, it actually might be the case that those 35 deaths were attributed to the vaccine. They found for fact that 10 of those died actually died of something else. This is also why it takes an expert in a field to evaluate the content and make conclusions. Despite the tone in the HN comments, this actually might suggest that the deaths attributed to the vaccine side effect might be significantly higher than the reality but it would take a research to say of this is the case.
- bena 4y ago
  Tell that to this guy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34004500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34004500 He is acting like it's support of anti-vaxxer claims. And it is why these articles get shared. Because they contain a very slight, practically negligible affirmation of the smallest portion of their claims. And that, in their eyes, is enough to proclaim victory.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    If I'm going to read anti vaxxer content I need to be paid, I'm so done finding misrepresentations and statistical hackery in propaganda articles. They cherry pick data, resort in fallacies and all kinds of trickery. They give you a shocking graph where you can see that young people are dying en masse only to find out that this graph is achieved through visual or statistical BS. Hours spend to dig out lies, completely avoidable by avoiding that content.
    - bena 4y ago
      I'm a little confused here. I'm not trying to convince you of the anti-vaxxer side. You said: > "I don't know why the HN comments are acting as if this is some kind of research supporting the anti vaxxer claims." To which I posted a link of a guy who is acting as if this is some kind of research supporting the anti-vaxxer claims. The comments were trying to head off the exact thing that happened. Because those users know the pattern. They know why this was posted. It was posted specifically as "vindication" for anti-vaxxers. Those comments to point out that this study does not in any way vindicate anti-vaxxers are needed and the people who made them were right to make those comments.
ycombinete 4y ago
I agree with you, there’s a weirdly political zealotry when it comes to such things. I took the Sinopharm vac as I felt hesitant to take what I considered to be brand new tech in the MRNA vaccines (I ended up taking the MRNA one as well but that was for travel reasons where I live). And people online acted like I was a conspiracy theorist, for preferring the tried and tested tech of the traditional vaccine.
ghastmaster 4y ago
> As long as vaccine side effects cause less deaths and less harm than the virus, vaccination is still the way to go. Assuming the vaccine prevents or lessens the effects of infection, this is logical. A common belief is that the vaccine is virtually useless. If this belief is true or close to true, then taking the vaccine would result in an increase in risk.
- sethammons 4y ago
  Utilitarian ideas like this are the basis of every story of the rogue AI that locks up humanity for its own safety.
2devnull 4y ago
Yes, it’s never either or. For one good example of the complexity, see this video [1] where Paul Offit notes the problems with the current bivalve that vaccines. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-v_vXMI91nw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-v_vXMI91nw
vfclists 4y ago
> Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. In four patients who received a mRNA vaccination, we identified acute (epi-)myocarditis without detection of another significant disease or health constellation that may have caused an unexpected death. Myocarditis was found in 4 out of 25 people who had received the vaccine and died within 25 days of it, and none had showed any sign of related disease. What are the odds of any 4 out 25 people in the age range of the group with no record of any related illness having acute myocarditis? It is so typical of HN that your vapid comment should rise to the top. > Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause mortality/harm in some cases. As long as vaccine side effects cause less deaths and less harm than the virus, vaccination is still the way to go. Where is the evidence of this, given that many governments have withdrawn the vaccines or even banned for them for young people, a category you probably fall into?
- nulld3v 4y ago
  > What are the odds of any 4 out 25 people with no record of any related illness dying of myocarditis. Note that I'm not saying vaccines do not cause myocarditis, I'm saying that even if vaccines may cause myocarditis but cause fewer myocarditis cases than COVID deaths, then it is still worth vaccinating. > Where is the evidence of this, given that many governments have withdrawn the vaccines or even banned for them for young people, a category you probably fall into? Hence my next sentence right? > My position depends on us having a good understanding of the vaccine's effects however, and right now I feel like we don't. That said, although I didn't mention it in my comment, my current understanding of the statistics does make me believe that the vaccine causes less cases of myocarditis than COVID deaths.
treeman79 4y ago
Wife got shot. Few days later her arm swelled up. 2 years later it still is. Her and I had already had Covid from before the vaccine. Absolutely refused to get it because of that. She now regrets it. She still gets Covid with every outbreak anyway. So doesn’t seem to have helped. I know a couple of kids that got it and have clots in their brains now. Less sure on timeline on these. But I’ve not seen this before. Sure it could all be coincidence. then there’s all the assholes who decided that get the vaccine or become unemployed.
- deleted 4y ago
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- dehrmann 4y ago
  > Few days later her arm swelled up. 2 years later it still is. I am not a doctor, but that's weird. I almost wonder if it got infected. You had a doctor check it out, right?
kodyo 4y ago
If you're over 80, you should probably get vaccinated.
- calculatte 4y ago
  If you're over 80 you've probably got enough experience to make your own decisions.
felipellrocha 4y ago
Same. The impact rate of myocarditis might be extremely small, but if it's caused by the vaccine, it should be investigated, while at the same time, people should get vaccinated. Luckily, the scientific community understands that. Unluckily, the non-scientific community doesn't on both ends. The supporters of the vaccine think you're attacking the vaccine. The detractors think you're suddenly supporting them. No. EVERYONE should be vaccinated. The vaccine has been given to billions, it is exceedingly safe. Can we do better? Yes. Is it marginal? Also yes, but I don't wish miocarditis on anyone.
merpnderp 4y ago
I keep hearing vaccination being promoted, but the last major study I saw showed no statistically significant difference in natural immunity + vaccination versus simple natural immunity. This also seems to be a topic treated as a fringe conspiracy theory instead of an extremely serious health issue worthy of a large amount of resources dedicated to giving us an answer. One certainly could be forgiven for thinking the vaccine has become a larger political issue than health issue for both sides.
- pas 4y ago
  that's certainly an age dependent thing, right?
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gregcrv 4y ago
Has there been any plan to compensate victims of the vaccines? either deaths or heart inflammation or other side effects? Any plan to approve and understand vaccine's effects should also come with proper system to compensate and acknowledge the risks.. But I feel that this has been avoided from the start to remove any liability.
t0bia_s 4y ago
There is a lot of studies on this topic. Somehow not covered in media. Which makes me even more curious. Gill J.R. et al: Autopsy Histopathologic Cardiac Findings in 2 Adolescents Following the Second COVID-19 Vaccine Dose, Arch Pathol Lab Med (2022) 146 (8):925-929 https://meridian.allenpress.com/aplm/article/146/8/925/477788/Autopsy-Histopathologic-Cardiac-Findings-in-2 https://meridian.allenpress.com/aplm/article/146/8/925/47778... Risks of myocarditis, pericarditis, and cardiac arrhythmias associated with COVID-19 vaccination or SARS-CoV-2 infectionhttps://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0#Aff1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0#Aff1 Vaccine-Associated Myo/Pericarditis in Adolescents: A Stratified Risk-Benefit Analysis https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eci.13759 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eci.13759 Schauer J. et al: Persistent Cardiac Magnetic Resonance Imaging Finfings in a Cohort of Adolescents with Post-Coronavirus Disease 2019 mRNA Vaccine Myopericarditis, The Journal of Pediatrics, March 25, 2022 https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(22)00282-7/fulltext https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(22)00282-7/fulltext Chua G.T.et al: Epidemiology of Acute Myocarditis/Pericarditis in Hong Kong Adolescents Following Comirnaty Vaccination, Clin Infect Dis 2022, Sep 10. 75(4):673-681 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34849657/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34849657/ Le Vu S.et al: Age and sex-specific risks of myokarditis and pericarditis following Covid-19 messenger RNA vaccines, Nat Commun, 2022, 13:3633, 25 Jun 2022 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9233673/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9233673/ Goddard K.et al: Risk of myokarditis and pericarditis following BT162b2 and mRNA-1273 COVID-19 vaccination, Vaccine 2022, Aug 19, 40(35): 5153-5159 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9273527/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9273527/ https://www.sst.dk/en/english/corona-eng/vaccination-against-covid-19 https://www.sst.dk/en/english/corona-eng/vaccination-against... Bardosh K.et al: COVID-19 Vaccine Boosters for Young Adults: A Risk-Benefit Assessment and Five Ethical Arguments against Mandates at Universities, 12 Sep 2022, preprint https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4206070 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4206070 Oster M.E. et al: Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based COVID-19 Vaccination in the US From December 2020 to August 2021, JAMA 2022,327(4):331-340, 25 Jan 2022 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346 Lai F.T. et al: Carditis After COVID-19 Vaccination With a Messenger RNA Vaccine and an Inactivated Virus Vaccine, Ann Int Med, March 2022 https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/full/10.7326/M21-3700?rfr_dat=cr_pub++0pubmed&url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/full/10.7326/M21-3700?rfr_da... Massari M. et al: Postmarketing active surveillance of myokarditis and pericarditis following vaccination with COVID-19 mRNA vaccines in persons aged 12 to 39 years in Italy: A multi-database, self-controlled case series study, Plos Medicine, July 2022 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34849657/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34849657/ SARS-CoV-2 Vaccination and Myocarditis in a Nordic Cohort Study of 23 Million Residents https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2791253?s=08 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/... Age and sex-specific risks of myocarditis and pericarditis following Covid-19 messenger RNA vaccines https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-31401-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-31401-5
oldgradstudent 4y ago
> I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. The fact that people feel the need to say that for any criticism of an intervention says that we have long left the realm of science and entered the realm of religion. Every intervention has benefits and harms. Not talking about harms makes it impossible to assess the cost-benefit tradeoffs of the intervention.
blub 4y ago
The association between heart problems and mRNA vaccines is a settled matter - outside social media at least. The Paul Ehrlich institute which is monitoring vaccine side-effects has a nice detailed report on vaccine safety with details on heart problems and all sorts of other things. Most affected are men and male teens between 12-17 and Moderna’s causing more problems than Biontech. This was the main reason why the German vaccination committee recommended that men under 30 get Biontech.
- gohigh54 4y ago
  I missed “settled matter” in the scientific method handbook. The reality is that this experiment is still unfolding and will continue for the rest of my life. It will take decades of research and observations to have real answers. Settled matter? No.
  - blub 4y ago
    In that sense nothing is ever a settled matter. The same kind of technical gotcha like “there’s no evidence masks prevent infection”.
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MarcoZavala 4y ago
smohare 4y ago
lzauz 4y ago
>I am vaccinated but Funny how this sounds like you have some special kind of keycard to be allowed to say what you said.
- ls15 4y ago
  Because many people fallaciously assume that someone who is not vaccinated must be an idiot and hence should not be listened to.
agrimonyhal 4y ago
I had a bad reaction to an mRNA vaccine that I’m still dealing with, and feel exactly the same as you do. This technology is too important to politicise. We need to look at it scientifically, make it better, and continue to deploy it in situations where the risk profile makes sense.
dehrmann 4y ago
Another thing that hasn't gotten enough research is the effectiveness of the latest booster for someone who was vaccinated earlier and got omicron (this is a pretty big cohort). It's genuinely hard to make a recommendation one way or another on it because it's not clear how effective it is after four prior exposure events, and it has to be weighed against the risk of side effects like this.
dablweb 4y ago
> As long as vaccine side effects cause less deaths and less harm than the virus, vaccination is still the way to go. No. This is the wrong criteria to judge by. Right now it takes ~30,000 injections to prevent one hospitalization from COVID, according to recent studies. So the real criteria is, if there are severe side effects in more than 1/30k they should be pulled. In Pfizer's own RCT more people died in the vaccinated cohort. They had ~4x the amount of cardiac arrest. There was no proven effect on all-cause mortality from the start. Anyone paying attention and not blindly listening to politicians and the sycophantic media knew this long ago.
brooklyndude 4y ago
> As long as vaccine side effects cause less deaths and less harm than the virus, vaccination is still the way to go. That's not how medicine works. What would be your opinion if you were the one that was going to die? Would you still stick by your statement? The issue is NO ONE told anyone this data. It was "suppressed" to PREVENT "vaccination hesitancy", that's the issue.
- nulld3v 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure that's how medicine works. Obviously, if I knew the vaccine would kill me, I would not take it. But it's the same deal with literally any medication. When I was prescribed Accutane for my acne, I was told that it could cause kidney damage. If I knew it would cause kidney damage to me would I have taken it? Of course not. But I hedged my bets and gambled that it wouldn't. As far as the suppression of information goes, obviously that is totally unacceptable. That's also partially why I upvoted this post right?

lanstin 4y ago

Well your feeling is wrong. The data gathering to establish the risks is why we don't just update the mRNA monthly based on the latest viral RNA.

manwe150 4y ago

I agree it is good we keep funding studies to try to better understand and predict the effects of the vaccines. What would it mean to feel like we have a good understanding though? How would we quantify "god"? We have observed that the side-effects have minimal deviation from the normal variations observed in the population for those effects. And we also know it is highly dependent on individual characteristics as to who exhibits the worst side-effects or best antibody response.

nulld3v 4y ago
> What would it mean to feel like we have a good understanding though? How would we quantify "god"? That is a hard question and honestly I don't have the knowledge to answer it. > We have observed that the side-effects have minimal deviation from the normal variations observed in the population for those effects. And we also know it is highly dependent on individual characteristics as to who exhibits the worst side-effects or best antibody response. Yeah, I get that the vaccine can cause side effects for a very small minority of the population. I think what I want is for vaccine side-effects to be treated more like plane crashes. I get that bad things happen, but if it isn't cost-prohibitive, I would like to know why these things happened, even if they happen extremely rarely.

vannevar 4y ago

The problem here isn't the study---of course we should study possible vaccine side effects. The problem is the massive leaps of logic being made by people who have (quite wrongly, based on available evidence) become convinced that the vaccines are a greater threat to healthy people than the virus is. As unlikely as it is that an otherwise healthy young person will die from covid, it is even less likely that they'll die from a vaccine side effect. That's just a statistical fact at this point, we have millions of both covid cases and vaccinations to back that up. This study looked at 25 cases of unexpected death in people aged 46-75 and found 5 cases of myocarditis. Without any control group to compare to, there is literally nothing that can be drawn from this study about the risk presented by the vaccine, and the authors admit as much: "The nature of our autopsy study necessitates that the data are descriptive in quality and does not allow any epidemiological conclusions in terms of incidence or risk estimation."

addingadimensio 4y ago
- addingadimensio 4y ago
  - dang 4y ago
    We've banned this account for using HN primarily for ideological battle. You can't do that here, and yes that rule holds regardless of which ideology you're battling for or against. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
tempsy 4y ago
Ok, so if you believe your chance of dying of covid is improbably small due to age and overall health, why is it necessary to be vaccinated even if there's only a small chance of side effects? Rare is not zero. I don't even take OTC pain killers like advil unless I absolutely feel like I have to.

gamacodre 4y ago

This has bugged me since the beginning of this mess. It ought to be possible to say "Hey this looks kind of funny, could the vaccines be having weird effects in this .0000001% of the population?" without daggers coming out all around. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that "The SARS-Cov-2 vaccines occasionally cause health problems" and "Almost everyone should get vaccinated/boosted" are both entirely true statements.

danhak 4y ago
The issue is that there were coercive government mandates. "Almost everyone should get vaccinated" does not mean the government should coerce everyone into making the correct medical decision by barring them from employment or access to private establishments. Absent a very compelling reason, people should be free to go against medical advice. People have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies. People have the right to make the wrong choice. In this case, the reason given for overriding that freedom was a highly specious argument that the unvaccinated were putting other people at significant risk. That argument did not pass the smell test from the very beginning.
- ethanbond 4y ago
  You don't get to dismiss an argument by just declaring that it "didn't pass the smell test." That guidance was exactly in line with every counter-pathogen campaign since, Idk, before germ theory?
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  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    The worst part is that we have already comprehensively litigated all of this. The spanish flu had people protesting being forced to wear masks and other societal health measures and the Supreme court affirmed the US's right to mandate those kind of large scale health things.

mrtksn 4y ago

This paper doesn't claim that mRNA vaccines are dangerous, it investigates through autopsy 35 people in a region of Germany who died within 20 days of vaccination and only 5 of the deaths are found to show myocarditis of which only 3 somewhat might be attributed to the vaccine. This is not an expose of big Pharma or anything like that, I don't know why the HN comments are acting as if this is some kind of research supporting the anti vaxxer claims. If you look into the statistics, it actually might be the case that those 35 deaths were attributed to the vaccine. They found for fact that 10 of those died actually died of something else. This is also why it takes an expert in a field to evaluate the content and make conclusions. Despite the tone in the HN comments, this actually might suggest that the deaths attributed to the vaccine side effect might be significantly higher than the reality but it would take a research to say of this is the case.

bena 4y ago
Tell that to this guy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34004500 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34004500 He is acting like it's support of anti-vaxxer claims. And it is why these articles get shared. Because they contain a very slight, practically negligible affirmation of the smallest portion of their claims. And that, in their eyes, is enough to proclaim victory.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  If I'm going to read anti vaxxer content I need to be paid, I'm so done finding misrepresentations and statistical hackery in propaganda articles. They cherry pick data, resort in fallacies and all kinds of trickery. They give you a shocking graph where you can see that young people are dying en masse only to find out that this graph is achieved through visual or statistical BS. Hours spend to dig out lies, completely avoidable by avoiding that content.
  - bena 4y ago
    I'm a little confused here. I'm not trying to convince you of the anti-vaxxer side. You said: > "I don't know why the HN comments are acting as if this is some kind of research supporting the anti vaxxer claims." To which I posted a link of a guy who is acting as if this is some kind of research supporting the anti-vaxxer claims. The comments were trying to head off the exact thing that happened. Because those users know the pattern. They know why this was posted. It was posted specifically as "vindication" for anti-vaxxers. Those comments to point out that this study does not in any way vindicate anti-vaxxers are needed and the people who made them were right to make those comments.

ycombinete 4y ago

I agree with you, there’s a weirdly political zealotry when it comes to such things. I took the Sinopharm vac as I felt hesitant to take what I considered to be brand new tech in the MRNA vaccines (I ended up taking the MRNA one as well but that was for travel reasons where I live). And people online acted like I was a conspiracy theorist, for preferring the tried and tested tech of the traditional vaccine.

ghastmaster 4y ago

> As long as vaccine side effects cause less deaths and less harm than the virus, vaccination is still the way to go. Assuming the vaccine prevents or lessens the effects of infection, this is logical. A common belief is that the vaccine is virtually useless. If this belief is true or close to true, then taking the vaccine would result in an increase in risk.

sethammons 4y ago
Utilitarian ideas like this are the basis of every story of the rogue AI that locks up humanity for its own safety.

2devnull 4y ago

Yes, it’s never either or. For one good example of the complexity, see this video [1] where Paul Offit notes the problems with the current bivalve that vaccines. [1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-v_vXMI91nw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-v_vXMI91nw

vfclists 4y ago

> Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. In four patients who received a mRNA vaccination, we identified acute (epi-)myocarditis without detection of another significant disease or health constellation that may have caused an unexpected death. Myocarditis was found in 4 out of 25 people who had received the vaccine and died within 25 days of it, and none had showed any sign of related disease. What are the odds of any 4 out 25 people in the age range of the group with no record of any related illness having acute myocarditis? It is so typical of HN that your vapid comment should rise to the top. > Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause mortality/harm in some cases. As long as vaccine side effects cause less deaths and less harm than the virus, vaccination is still the way to go. Where is the evidence of this, given that many governments have withdrawn the vaccines or even banned for them for young people, a category you probably fall into?

nulld3v 4y ago
> What are the odds of any 4 out 25 people with no record of any related illness dying of myocarditis. Note that I'm not saying vaccines do not cause myocarditis, I'm saying that even if vaccines may cause myocarditis but cause fewer myocarditis cases than COVID deaths, then it is still worth vaccinating. > Where is the evidence of this, given that many governments have withdrawn the vaccines or even banned for them for young people, a category you probably fall into? Hence my next sentence right? > My position depends on us having a good understanding of the vaccine's effects however, and right now I feel like we don't. That said, although I didn't mention it in my comment, my current understanding of the statistics does make me believe that the vaccine causes less cases of myocarditis than COVID deaths.

treeman79 4y ago

Wife got shot. Few days later her arm swelled up. 2 years later it still is. Her and I had already had Covid from before the vaccine. Absolutely refused to get it because of that. She now regrets it. She still gets Covid with every outbreak anyway. So doesn’t seem to have helped. I know a couple of kids that got it and have clots in their brains now. Less sure on timeline on these. But I’ve not seen this before. Sure it could all be coincidence. then there’s all the assholes who decided that get the vaccine or become unemployed.

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dehrmann 4y ago
> Few days later her arm swelled up. 2 years later it still is. I am not a doctor, but that's weird. I almost wonder if it got infected. You had a doctor check it out, right?

kodyo 4y ago

If you're over 80, you should probably get vaccinated.

calculatte 4y ago
If you're over 80 you've probably got enough experience to make your own decisions.

felipellrocha 4y ago

Same. The impact rate of myocarditis might be extremely small, but if it's caused by the vaccine, it should be investigated, while at the same time, people should get vaccinated. Luckily, the scientific community understands that. Unluckily, the non-scientific community doesn't on both ends. The supporters of the vaccine think you're attacking the vaccine. The detractors think you're suddenly supporting them. No. EVERYONE should be vaccinated. The vaccine has been given to billions, it is exceedingly safe. Can we do better? Yes. Is it marginal? Also yes, but I don't wish miocarditis on anyone.

merpnderp 4y ago

I keep hearing vaccination being promoted, but the last major study I saw showed no statistically significant difference in natural immunity + vaccination versus simple natural immunity. This also seems to be a topic treated as a fringe conspiracy theory instead of an extremely serious health issue worthy of a large amount of resources dedicated to giving us an answer. One certainly could be forgiven for thinking the vaccine has become a larger political issue than health issue for both sides.

pas 4y ago
that's certainly an age dependent thing, right?

deleted 4y ago

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gregcrv 4y ago

Has there been any plan to compensate victims of the vaccines? either deaths or heart inflammation or other side effects? Any plan to approve and understand vaccine's effects should also come with proper system to compensate and acknowledge the risks.. But I feel that this has been avoided from the start to remove any liability.

t0bia_s 4y ago

There is a lot of studies on this topic. Somehow not covered in media. Which makes me even more curious. Gill J.R. et al: Autopsy Histopathologic Cardiac Findings in 2 Adolescents Following the Second COVID-19 Vaccine Dose, Arch Pathol Lab Med (2022) 146 (8):925-929 https://meridian.allenpress.com/aplm/article/146/8/925/477788/Autopsy-Histopathologic-Cardiac-Findings-in-2 https://meridian.allenpress.com/aplm/article/146/8/925/47778... Risks of myocarditis, pericarditis, and cardiac arrhythmias associated with COVID-19 vaccination or SARS-CoV-2 infectionhttps://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0#Aff1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0#Aff1 Vaccine-Associated Myo/Pericarditis in Adolescents: A Stratified Risk-Benefit Analysis https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eci.13759 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/eci.13759 Schauer J. et al: Persistent Cardiac Magnetic Resonance Imaging Finfings in a Cohort of Adolescents with Post-Coronavirus Disease 2019 mRNA Vaccine Myopericarditis, The Journal of Pediatrics, March 25, 2022 https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(22)00282-7/fulltext https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(22)00282-7/fulltext Chua G.T.et al: Epidemiology of Acute Myocarditis/Pericarditis in Hong Kong Adolescents Following Comirnaty Vaccination, Clin Infect Dis 2022, Sep 10. 75(4):673-681 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34849657/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34849657/ Le Vu S.et al: Age and sex-specific risks of myokarditis and pericarditis following Covid-19 messenger RNA vaccines, Nat Commun, 2022, 13:3633, 25 Jun 2022 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9233673/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9233673/ Goddard K.et al: Risk of myokarditis and pericarditis following BT162b2 and mRNA-1273 COVID-19 vaccination, Vaccine 2022, Aug 19, 40(35): 5153-5159 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9273527/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9273527/ https://www.sst.dk/en/english/corona-eng/vaccination-against-covid-19 https://www.sst.dk/en/english/corona-eng/vaccination-against... Bardosh K.et al: COVID-19 Vaccine Boosters for Young Adults: A Risk-Benefit Assessment and Five Ethical Arguments against Mandates at Universities, 12 Sep 2022, preprint https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4206070 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4206070 Oster M.E. et al: Myocarditis Cases Reported After mRNA-Based COVID-19 Vaccination in the US From December 2020 to August 2021, JAMA 2022,327(4):331-340, 25 Jan 2022 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2788346 Lai F.T. et al: Carditis After COVID-19 Vaccination With a Messenger RNA Vaccine and an Inactivated Virus Vaccine, Ann Int Med, March 2022 https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/full/10.7326/M21-3700?rfr_dat=cr_pub++0pubmed&url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/full/10.7326/M21-3700?rfr_da... Massari M. et al: Postmarketing active surveillance of myokarditis and pericarditis following vaccination with COVID-19 mRNA vaccines in persons aged 12 to 39 years in Italy: A multi-database, self-controlled case series study, Plos Medicine, July 2022 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34849657/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34849657/ SARS-CoV-2 Vaccination and Myocarditis in a Nordic Cohort Study of 23 Million Residents https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2791253?s=08 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/... Age and sex-specific risks of myocarditis and pericarditis following Covid-19 messenger RNA vaccines https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-31401-5 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-31401-5

oldgradstudent 4y ago

> I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. The fact that people feel the need to say that for any criticism of an intervention says that we have long left the realm of science and entered the realm of religion. Every intervention has benefits and harms. Not talking about harms makes it impossible to assess the cost-benefit tradeoffs of the intervention.

blub 4y ago

The association between heart problems and mRNA vaccines is a settled matter - outside social media at least. The Paul Ehrlich institute which is monitoring vaccine side-effects has a nice detailed report on vaccine safety with details on heart problems and all sorts of other things. Most affected are men and male teens between 12-17 and Moderna’s causing more problems than Biontech. This was the main reason why the German vaccination committee recommended that men under 30 get Biontech.

gohigh54 4y ago
I missed “settled matter” in the scientific method handbook. The reality is that this experiment is still unfolding and will continue for the rest of my life. It will take decades of research and observations to have real answers. Settled matter? No.
- blub 4y ago
  In that sense nothing is ever a settled matter. The same kind of technical gotcha like “there’s no evidence masks prevent infection”.

deleted 4y ago

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MarcoZavala 4y ago

smohare 4y ago

lzauz 4y ago

>I am vaccinated but Funny how this sounds like you have some special kind of keycard to be allowed to say what you said.

ls15 4y ago
Because many people fallaciously assume that someone who is not vaccinated must be an idiot and hence should not be listened to.

agrimonyhal 4y ago

I had a bad reaction to an mRNA vaccine that I’m still dealing with, and feel exactly the same as you do. This technology is too important to politicise. We need to look at it scientifically, make it better, and continue to deploy it in situations where the risk profile makes sense.

dehrmann 4y ago

Another thing that hasn't gotten enough research is the effectiveness of the latest booster for someone who was vaccinated earlier and got omicron (this is a pretty big cohort). It's genuinely hard to make a recommendation one way or another on it because it's not clear how effective it is after four prior exposure events, and it has to be weighed against the risk of side effects like this.

dablweb 4y ago

> As long as vaccine side effects cause less deaths and less harm than the virus, vaccination is still the way to go. No. This is the wrong criteria to judge by. Right now it takes ~30,000 injections to prevent one hospitalization from COVID, according to recent studies. So the real criteria is, if there are severe side effects in more than 1/30k they should be pulled. In Pfizer's own RCT more people died in the vaccinated cohort. They had ~4x the amount of cardiac arrest. There was no proven effect on all-cause mortality from the start. Anyone paying attention and not blindly listening to politicians and the sycophantic media knew this long ago.

brooklyndude 4y ago

> As long as vaccine side effects cause less deaths and less harm than the virus, vaccination is still the way to go. That's not how medicine works. What would be your opinion if you were the one that was going to die? Would you still stick by your statement? The issue is NO ONE told anyone this data. It was "suppressed" to PREVENT "vaccination hesitancy", that's the issue.

nulld3v 4y ago
I'm pretty sure that's how medicine works. Obviously, if I knew the vaccine would kill me, I would not take it. But it's the same deal with literally any medication. When I was prescribed Accutane for my acne, I was told that it could cause kidney damage. If I knew it would cause kidney damage to me would I have taken it? Of course not. But I hedged my bets and gambled that it wouldn't. As far as the suppression of information goes, obviously that is totally unacceptable. That's also partially why I upvoted this post right?