57 ms·

Autopsy-based characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination

495 points by Octokiddie 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
puffoflogic 4y ago
- colechristensen 4y ago
  I don’t know if you’re joking or not.
  - prvc 4y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
  - chomp 4y ago
    Based on their comment history, they are trolling.
- tux3 4y ago
  Assuming the post is irony, is this what you'd call a false flag? :)
- echelon 4y ago
  Everything should be open for research, and that shouldn't be political. I took the vaccine, but I'd like for more research to be done. This journal has an impact factor of 5, too, so they're not terrible.
- chedca21 4y ago
  But wait 15 minutes to see if your child gets anaphylaxis from them. We could have tested for allergy before giving the vaccine but its more convenient to have you wait around after. Don't worry if you experience allergic shock we have epinephrine on standby. It might not work and its use is associated with Alzheimer's onset but don't worry! Safe and effective!
  - thewizardofaus 4y ago
    "But wait 15 minutes to see if your child gets anaphylaxis from them. We could have tested for allergy before giving the vaccine but its more convenient to have you wait around after." The waiting period of 15 minutes after a vaccine has always been recommended. It's standard medical recommendation and safety.
    - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
      These type of complaints has actually been really enlightening for me regarding how many people can't even be bothered to get the flu vaccine or their tetanus shots.
      - LarryMullins 4y ago
        I got a tetanus shot a year ago and they didn't ask me to wait around afterwards. They just handed me the paperwork and showed me the door (this was after they had already stitched me up.) I see the CDC website says that a 15 minute wait after getting a tetanus shot is recommended due to a fainting risk. But I bet this is not widely observed. I surmise they had already judged me to not be a fainting risk, since I didn't faint when they were sewing me.
        SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
        The CDC discusses anaphylaxis as a possible side effect of the tetanus shot too[1]. It would seem the difference between the two is an adherence to protocol as opposed to risk profiles. According to the CDC the rate of anaphylaxis is incredibly low with the COVID shot[2]. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/acip-recs/general-recs/adverse-reactions.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/acip-recs/general-recs/adve... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7002e1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7002e1.htm
        chedca21 4y ago
        VAERS includes thousands of reports of death including broad anaphylaxis following their vaccination for CV. So what are you saying? Those lives are an acceptable cost for the convenience of skipping failsafes? You're essentially giving full confidence to an industry - so why stop at covid? Shouldn't you prophylactically vaccinate yourself against all the viruses on earth?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- moralestapia 4y ago
  >6 researchers from an established medical institution in Germany, publishing a study on a reputable journal >a bunch of stochastic terrorists What an interesting way to see the world. /s
canadiantim 4y ago
I'm surprised this sort of post is even allowed to be discussed
- dontwearitout 4y ago
  I agree, it'll probably be scrubbed from the frontpage shortly. It's sad that this is the case, especially since it's published in a scientific journal.
  - dang 4y ago
    The thread spent 11 hours on HN's front page.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  Myocarditis is rare and has been a part of the discussion from even before the vaccines were released, or at least the professional discussion. They were why the vaccines were not recommended for all ages to begin with.
  - gfodor 4y ago
    The vaccines were and still are mandated for people not at risk of severe disease, and myocarditis has been framed as a side effect not worth worrying about despite the fact that it literally can kill you. Not to mention without understanding the mechanism of action, we cannot estimate the number of true deaths that occurred without a myocarditis diagnosis.
    - littlestymaar 4y ago
      > about despite the fact that it literally can kill you. There are many many things that can literally kill you. Heck, even anosmia can literally kill you under the right circumstances. What matters is the total number of vaccine-related myocarditis cases, and the total number of vaccine-related myocarditis death balanced with the number of covid related-death (including Covid-induced fatal myocarditis, because the virus itself has this effect), that's how you get a cost-benefit analysis.
danhak 4y ago
We coerced young, low-risk people into receiving these treatments despite known side effects on pain of losing their education or employment or being able to enter privately-owned establishments (irrespective of the wishes of the owners of those privately-owned establishments). We justified it with the specious argument that they were putting other people at undue risk by remaining unvaccinated. We claimed that vaccinated people would not spread the virus. And we gave the companies producing these vaccines blanket legal immunity from any potential liability.
- scarmig 4y ago
  Why should the companies be held liable? This was a government project enforced by the gun; the companies didn't force anyone to take their vaccines, and there's not a way they could have made them meaningfully safer given the timelines.
  - krona 4y ago
    Then why did most of them sell it for profit?
  - burner990 4y ago
    My employer wouldn't let me go to the office or even any offsites or outdoor actives (i.e. a picnic) until very recently. (Despite my approved religious exemption and "requiring" all employees to work in the office). If that isn't coercion to take an experimental vaccine i don't know what is.
    - threeseed 4y ago
      a) I wouldn't class it as experimental when hundreds of millions of people have taken it. b) It sounds like your employer did the right thing to balance your rights versus those of the people you work with.
      - addingadimensio 4y ago
        If an experiment is big enough it becomes a statistic
gfodor 4y ago
- littlestymaar 4y ago
  I'm not sure why you'd want a trial, since you've already decided its outcome. In reality all you want is a lynching.
- kyleyeats 4y ago
  Before all that let's discontinue our demonization of the unvaccinated.
  - gfodor 4y ago
    Where is that still happening? (Genuine q)
    - hammock 4y ago
      https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05607-y https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05607-y > We find evidence in support of discriminatory attitudes against the unvaccinated in [nineteen different countries including the US] > Findings suggest that...the vaccinated react with discriminatory attitudes against...the unvaccinated. Elites and the vaccinated general public appealed to moral obligations to increase COVID-19 vaccine uptake but the present findings suggest that discriminatory attitudes including support for the removal of fundamental rights simultaneously emerged
    - fein 4y ago
      In the USA on a government level? No idea, at least it isn't a thing around where I live, but I also sit at home and get paid to write software. No idea what applying for jobs in some industries might look like. On the social level? People have fractured families over it and/or forced(you can't see your grand children unless you're vaxxed, for example)/coerced family members into getting it despite their otherwise refusal. I still know people who won't let non vaccinated people come over for events. It's a much rarer thing now, but the damage has been done.
chedca21 4y ago
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4425/rr-31 https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4425/rr-31 Covid-19: politicisation, “corruption,” and suppression of science "Professor John Ioannidis of Stanford University, quotes an infection fatality rate (IFR) for Covid of 0.00-0.57% (0.05% for under 70s), far lower than originally feared and no different to severe flu" -March 2020 The bigger scandal is how covid case:fatality rate was so much higher in some places than the global average. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/why-some-doctors-are-moving-away-ventilators-virus-patients-n1179986 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/why-some-doctors-...
- colechristensen 4y ago
  The fatality rate for a disease that is very often asymptomatic highly depends on testing. The rate will go way down in places where lots of people are required to or just do get treated frequently. Most asymptomatic cases will go unnoticed in places with less testing so the fatality rate will go way up. Also how you count whether or not a death gets tagged with covid matters. Lots of people had Covid and plenty of deaths will just coincidentally happen while a person has a minor infection which didn’t affect the outcome. How or when do you count that?
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Professor ioannidis forecasted 10,000 deaths in the US as a mid range guess of what to expect. He’s not exactly a good appeal to authority.
  - chedca21 4y ago
    Ioannidis did a antigen survey and found the vast majority of cases were mild; https://apps.who.int/iris/handle/10665/340124 https://apps.who.int/iris/handle/10665/340124 A survey by the most cited epidemiologist alive is not a forecast for one. It is the best appeal to authority one can make. I've seen it shown that h1n1 in england in 2009 had a IFR of 0.05% which is greater than the revised figure for covid. Amazing how all the proof in the world makes such little difference to the average Luddite who will just defer to authority regardless. Stanley Milgram was clearly right about everything he said.
lxe 4y ago
"Graphical abstract"... lol why?
- qorrect 4y ago
  That caught me off guard too. 'Did he ... did he hand draw this' ?
uoflcards22 4y ago
As someone who did choose to get the latest booster despite being a young male (highest risk group for myocarditis I believe), we should always be questioning what we put in our bodies.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  Given the information i had at the time, I am fine with my unforced decision to get the first two doses, but I will not be getting a third barring some surprising new information, new variant, etc.
- bittercynic 4y ago
  >...we should always be questioning... I partially agree, or at least think we shouldn't be discouraged from questioning, but there's only so many hours in a day, and a person can digest a finite amount of information. I choose to trust US health authorities. Flawed as they may be, I think it would be worse to somehow try to verify every claim, or come to my own conclusions on every single question. I won't judge you for making a choice different from my own, but for me, and I suspect many (most?) people, having a doctor who you trust, following their recommendations, and getting on with your life might be the best strategy.
- lazyasciiart 4y ago
  I thought it wasn’t the highest risk group for myocarditis, just the lowest risk for covid which makes it the highest relative risk?
- criddell 4y ago
  > we should always be questioning what we put in our bodies If we did a better job of that, health problems associated with obesity, smoking, drinking, etc... would be reduced and that would have a pretty big impact on cardiovascular health too.
imode 4y ago
estewart 4y ago
The last paragraph in the article literally indicates there is no causal relationship or proof of any direct link between the vaccination and myocarditis. > "Finally, we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis."
- jamespo 4y ago
  Very few of the instant commenters read the study first it seems.
  - ada1981 4y ago
    Haters will say it’s GPT-3ed.
- DeusExMachina 4y ago
  It states that they cannot provide a definitive proof or a causal link, not that there isn't one.
  - giarc 4y ago
    As we say in epidemiology (and other fields), absence of evidence, isn't evidence of absence.
    - ngvrnd 4y ago
      but it is somewhat suggestive of absence.
      - SoftTalker 4y ago
        No, it really doesn't suggest anything either way.
- nulld3v 4y ago
  The study does suggest there might be a causal relationship. It is not able to provide definitive proof however.
librish 4y ago
A question for vaccine skeptics: For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established, on average more severe, and much more common?
- Mikeb85 4y ago
  > but aren't the side-effects of covid well established, on average more severe, and much more common? You forgot to account for the risk of getting the virus. If you choose to get the vaccine, the probability is 1. But what's the probability of getting Covid? Definitely less than 1. For certain age groups (young men), the risk of complications * probability of getting the vaccine (1) was more than the risk of complications from COVID * the probability of getting it (let's say 0.25 or so). Remember, COVID hasn't been shown to be particularly dangerous to young people...
  - librish 4y ago
    COVID is much less dangerous to younger people but there are still very real risks involved, especially non-lethal ones. Assuming a 25% probability of catching it, how are you coming to the conclusion that the risk of the vaccine is higher?
    - Mikeb85 4y ago
      > risk of the vaccine is higher? I said within a certain demographic... For old people, the vaccine is obviously worth it. Boys/men from age 10-30, probably not. Hell, a bunch of EU countries literally stopped giving young people the Moderna vaccine: https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/11/10/germany-france-restrict-modernas-covid-vaccine-for-under-30s-over-rare-heart-risk-despite-surging-cases/?sh=156c85e32a8a https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/11/10/germany-f...
      - 4y ago
kaio 4y ago
Key takeaway: >>The reported incidence of (epi-)myocarditis after vaccination is low and the risks of hospitalization and death associated with COVID-19 are stated to be greater than the recorded risk associated with COVID-19 vaccination [29].
- nyolfen 4y ago
  the more interesting unaddressed question is, for whom? i am a young-ish healthy person, i have basically no risk of ending up in the hospital for covid. what is the risk tradeoff for people similar to me, rather than an abstraction of the entire population? what is the risk tradeoff for a young child, who effectively has zero risk of serious covid?
  - aaomidi 4y ago
    Why do people keep thinking young people have no risk of ending up in the hospital for Covid? So many people have, and so many have died?
    - nyolfen 4y ago
      statistically, it is extremely unlikely[0] for an otherwise healthy young person to end up in the hospital for covid, much like myocarditis -- i am simply interested in which is more likely for specific population subsets [0] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/figures/mm6915e3-F1.gif?_=57432 https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/figures/mm6915e3-F1.g... -- from https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6915e3.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6915e3.htm
      - eli 4y ago
        The numbers are so small that it is hard to say -- several long-term studies are ongoing. All the evidence suggests the risk of Covid is far greater. I'm sure you know this, but covid causes significantly more cases of myocarditis than the vaccine.
kaio 4y ago
Key takeaway: >>The reported incidence of (epi-)myocarditis after vaccination is low and the risks of hospitalization and death associated with COVID-19 are stated to be greater than the recorded risk associated with COVID-19 vaccination [29]. I hope the research continues to make it even more safe.
marsven_422 4y ago
lame-robot-hoax 4y ago
Note: the ages in this study ranged from 46 to 75 for those who died.
fxtentacle 4y ago
These are very low numbers with only 5 vaccine+death cases found in an area with 8mio citizens. But they convincingly argue that accidentally injecting the vaccination into the bloodstream towards the heart may cause a heart infection similar to those seen in people who got sick with Covid.
nluken 4y ago
"Interestingly, we recorded inflammatory foci predominantly in the right heart, which may suggest a gradual blood-stream derived dilution effect and based on this finding it is at least tempting to speculate that inadvertent intravascular vaccine injection may be contributive." Does this indicate that the authors believe aspirating the vaccine during administration would reduce the risk of myocarditis? I don't have a biological background so I would be interested in hearing someone else's take on this but that sentence seems to indicate that the authors think ensuring correct administration would lower the risk of post-vaccine complications (which from what I've seen, remains low but non-zero). If that's the case, then perhaps the issue isn't as much with the vaccine itself as how it's being administered.
- gfodor 4y ago
  For a long time this theory always made the most sense to me, and frankly I assume I must just be missing something since it’s so obviously criminal if there was a chance this was true that it wasn’t blasted from the rooftops from the CDC (for the public to help correct it when they got their vaccine.)
- hammock 4y ago
  Yes. Complication from jab administration is something that has been widely discussed (not widely reported though). The clinical trials were supposed to show that the jab (and therefore the mRNA, and the resultant spike protein generated, which is known to be toxic) stayed in the muscle local to the injection site. What is widely speculated is that on some not-insubstantial portion of injections, the jab makes it into the bloodstream. This would explain why we see spike protein collecting in the heart, reproductive organs and other parts of the body. And because of how the jab works - inducing spike protein genesis as well as an immune response - when the immune system finds spike protein on the cells that are creating it (supposed to be just your arm muscle but ends up being your heart and other things), it starts attacking those cells. Which leads to inflammation, blood clots, etc.
  - dontwearitout 4y ago
    A nurse friend of mine raised this as a concern. The protocol for intramuscular injections used to be (and in some places still is) to draw the plunger back a bit first to verify that you're in muscle, and haven't hit a small vein. If you pull blood, you find new spot. In practice this doesn't happen for covid vaccines, and her personal hypothesis was that many of the adverse reactions (myocarditis, or just being hit hard) were due to the vaccine partially being administered into a vein.
nulld3v 4y ago
I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause mortality/harm in some cases. As long as vaccine side effects cause less deaths and less harm than the virus, vaccination is still the way to go. My position depends on us having a good understanding of the vaccine's effects however, and right now I feel like we don't.
- lanstin 4y ago
  Well your feeling is wrong. The data gathering to establish the risks is why we don't just update the mRNA monthly based on the latest viral RNA.
- manwe150 4y ago
  I agree it is good we keep funding studies to try to better understand and predict the effects of the vaccines. What would it mean to feel like we have a good understanding though? How would we quantify "god"? We have observed that the side-effects have minimal deviation from the normal variations observed in the population for those effects. And we also know it is highly dependent on individual characteristics as to who exhibits the worst side-effects or best antibody response.
  - nulld3v 4y ago
    > What would it mean to feel like we have a good understanding though? How would we quantify "god"? That is a hard question and honestly I don't have the knowledge to answer it. > We have observed that the side-effects have minimal deviation from the normal variations observed in the population for those effects. And we also know it is highly dependent on individual characteristics as to who exhibits the worst side-effects or best antibody response. Yeah, I get that the vaccine can cause side effects for a very small minority of the population. I think what I want is for vaccine side-effects to be treated more like plane crashes. I get that bad things happen, but if it isn't cost-prohibitive, I would like to know why these things happened, even if they happen extremely rarely.
fzeroracer 4y ago
The discussion here is absolutely rancid. So here are the actual the salient points from the study: > Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. In four patients who received a mRNA vaccination, we identified acute (epi-)myocarditis without detection of another significant disease or health constellation that may have caused an unexpected death. Out of 25 people that died post-vaccination, four patients had signs of myocarditis. That's a fraction of a fraction of people. > Myocarditis is another manifestation reported during SARS-CoV-2-infection [24]. It is under debate whether myocarditis in COVID-19 is primarily caused by the viral infection or whether it occurs secondary as a consequence of the host´s immune response, in particular by T-lymphocyte-mediated cytotoxicity or as a consequence of the cytokine storm observed during COVID-19 We don't know whether or not Myocarditis is a result of the infection or the immune response; in either scenario people who are predisposed to myocarditis would likely have similar reactions during either infection or vaccine. > However, the vaccine against smallpox, based on a vaccinia virus, is reported to cause (epi-)myocarditis in rare cases Smallpox vaccines can also trigger myocarditis despite being a more 'traditional' vaccine. > The reported incidence of (epi-)myocarditis after vaccination is low and the risks of hospitalization and death associated with COVID-19 are stated to be greater than the recorded risk associated with COVID-19 vaccination [29]. Importantly, infectious agents may also cause lymphocytic myocarditis with a similar immunophenotype, thus meticulous molecular analyses is required in all cases of potentially vaccination-associated myocarditis. The risk factor is low and the chances of hospitalization and death from COVID-19 in even otherwise healthy people is higher versus the risk from vaccination, similar to other vaccinations. > Finally, we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis. Further studies and extended registry are needed to identify persons at risk for this potentially fatal AEFI and may be aided by detailed clinical, serological, and molecular analyses which were beyond the scope of this study. This is not a definitive link between the two, but rather a call for further investigation and to ensure that at-risk individuals are caught earlier and monitored.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  Yes, thank you. Also, important to call out ages here: > Median age at death was 58 years (range 46–75 years). I keep seeing "young men" over and over in the comments. These are not the people being studied here.
sfusato 4y ago
Multiple US universities still mandate the shots for young students in total opposition to Europe, for example: Harvard [0], Yale [1], Tufts University [2], University of California [3], New York University [4], University of Notre Dame [5], Boston University [6] [0] https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-information/ https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-informa... [1] https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-dean/messages-dean/updated-covid-19-vaccine-booster-requirements https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-de... [2] https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vaccinations-tufts https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vacc... [3] https://campusready.ucdavis.edu/covid-vaccination https://campusready.ucdavis.edu/covid-vaccination [4] https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-information/covid-related-guidance/covid-19-vaccine.html https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-... [5] https://ndsmcobserver.com/2022/11/university-announces-additional-covid-19-booster-requirement/ https://ndsmcobserver.com/2022/11/university-announces-addit... [6] https://www.bu.edu/hr/hr-covid-19-resources/vaccine-required-for-faculty-and-staff/ https://www.bu.edu/hr/hr-covid-19-resources/vaccine-required... Is biology/science different in the US than in Europe?
- frozencell 4y ago
  Both seem mainly corrupted by finance, the later less than the former.
pianoben 4y ago
> Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. Sample size of 25 out of a population of... how many tens of millions of young (EDIT: not actually young) men? Seems quite small, and perhaps not sufficient to draw any conclusions. I wonder what the results will show... > myocarditis is another manifestation reported during SARS-CoV-2-infection [24]. It is under debate whether myocarditis in COVID-19 is primarily caused by the viral infection or whether it occurs secondary as a consequence of the host´s immune response, in particular by T-lymphocyte-mediated cytotoxicity or as a consequence of the cytokine storm observed during COVID-19 [25]. Interesting! > Finally, we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis. Further studies and extended registry are needed to identify persons at risk for this potentially fatal AEFI and may be aided by detailed clinical, serological, and molecular analyses which were beyond the scope of this study. So in total, out of 25 young men, 20 showed signs of cardiac damage. It's suggestive and merits more research. On the other hand, the authors offer no real ideas about how the damage could have happened, other than to observe that since similar damage happens as a result of COVID-19, maybe the immune response is the culprit (provoked by the vaccine, similarly as by the disease). Far from any sort of smoking gun. It's important to keep that in mind.
- joshuahedlund 4y ago
  > out of 25 young men These were not young men > Three of the deceased persons were women, two men. Median age at death was 58 years (range 46–75 years).
  - pianoben 4y ago
    My mistake; I misread something somewhere, and thought that the population was 30-and-younger men.
- hammock 4y ago
  >the authors offer no real ideas about how the damage could have happened They do, though. In fact that's the entirely novel value that this study brings. It's in the title: "histopathological characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination." That's a lot of words that means "we can now tell you exactly what microscopic tissue looks like following lethal jab-associated myocarditis.” And the scientists discuss how it happens. For your benefit, I'll describe it here. These mRNA-vaccinated patients suffered from heart damage because their hearts were attacked by their own immune cells. The mRNA is injected into your muscle cells, turning the cell into a factory producing COVID-19 spike proteins. As a result of the mRNA immunization, your body generates an immune response against COVID-19 spike proteins. Since your own muscle cells were used to make the COVID-19 spike proteins and may have them on the cell surface, your newly-weaponized immune cells targeting the spike protein may start attacking your own healthy muscle cells. This autoimmune attack on their own heart cells then leads to their damaged hearts beating so many times per second that, once the tachycardia unexpectedly started, they died in minutes. This new German study shows photographic evidence that this happens and has killed people
almostnormal 4y ago
> Of note, it has been recently reported that intravenous injection of COVID-19 mRNA vaccine is able to induce an acute (epi-) myocarditis in a preclinical model There have been lots of vaccinations shown in various TV reports over the last years. Watching carefully, there's two different variants: a) jab, aspirate, inject, b) jab, inject. Maybe it is just stock footage and not from covid shots, and everyone has been checking carefully for not finding blood?
athenot 4y ago
What this article does describe, is how the fatal "adverse events" take place. It's useful to deepen our understanding of the mechanisms of action for undesireable outcomes. And of course it's one piece of a much larger puzzle. Some seem to be interpreting this article as a confirmation that vaccines are inherently not safe. The thing is, every therapy, whether preventative or curative carries an element of risk. This paper is not weighing on the relative safety of the immunization. To someone uncomfortable with the vaccine, this is of course unsettling to discuss, as it reinforces a fear. It's akin to discussing how exactly people's organs got smashed when they got killed by getting ran over by a bus. People who distrust busses will further cement their fears about them.
jmyeet 4y ago
It feels like 2021 again. Small sample size (n = 25), small number of incidents of myocarditis, no causal link found between myocarditis and adverse events (including, but not limited to, death) and no causal link found between mRNA vaccines and myocarditis. But do you what does cause myocarditis? Getting Covid [1]. Covid and the (highly effective) vaccines are the most clearcut case of evolution in action [2] I've seen in my lifetime. This isn't really worth worrying about this point. Countries (barring China) have largely decided they're over Covid. Get a vaccine, don't get a vaccine. Nobody cares. Looking for justification for not getting a vaccine however reminds me of creationists trying to equate "intelligent design" as "science". [1]: https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-poses-higher-risk-for-myocarditis-than-vaccines https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-... [2]: https://quotepark.com/quotes/1800059-larry-niven-think-of-it-as-evolution-in-action/ https://quotepark.com/quotes/1800059-larry-niven-think-of-it...
DoreenMichele 4y ago
Overall, autopsy findings indicated death due to acute arrhythmogenic cardiac failure. Arrhythmia can be an indicator you need zinc. Proatherogenic factors, released during Zn deficiency, increase the incidence of arrhythmias, strokes, CM, and many other CV system pathologies https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2021.686078/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2021.68607... Prior discussion with a researcher points to zinc as significant wrt covid.
seydor 4y ago
Regardless of any possible danger of vaccination, one has to also consider that vaccination doesnt prevent infection, which is important. As more studies come to light it s becoming evident that Covid damages our bodies in many ways, even with mild infections, it weakens our immune systems and the damage is cumulative every time we catch it. We should be preventing infections , with measures that are appropriate, instead of trying to mitigate the symptoms as we do with vaccines.
SnowProblem 4y ago
Why is it so hard to find data showing how often people are dying, no matter the cause, broken down by vaccination status and age? Surely that would help clear things up. Lots of countries publish COVID-19 mortality rates which show benefits for vaccinated but that's really not helpful for understanding overall risk of vaccines. The UK is the only country I could find that publishes this data and unless I'm missing something things look really bad. Table 2 in [1] shows a 2-3x higher mortality rate for vaccinated vs. unvaccinated in almost all groups this year. Perhaps the unvaccinated are healthier on average, maybe, but 2-3x healthier? Yeah, don't think so. What's going on? [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/deathsbyvaccinationstatusengland https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde....
- sdnas211 4y ago
  That is showing the raw numbers - they aren't adjusted for vaccinated/unvaccinated population sizes. ~53 million people have had at least one shot, and there are around 6 million children under 10 (so not counted in the figures you linked). With a population of about 68 million total, the unvaccinated all causes figures should be about 16% of the ever vaccinated. The ratio should skew further in older age ranges, as a higher proportion of those were vaccinated.
  - SnowProblem 4y ago
    It also shows mortality rates per 100,000. That's what I was referring to. For example, here are the rates of all-cause mortality for the most last month they released, May 2022, for the 40-49 group: - Unvaccinated: 64.1 - One dose: 171.5 - Two doses: 106.4 - Three doses: 83.7
    - mint2 4y ago
      Lest someone draw the statistically unsound but temping surface level conclusion from this, consider that people with pre-existing conditions and especially severe ones would have more incentive to have three doses. There is self selection on these groups, they are not random samples.
manv1 4y ago
People will believe whatever they want to believe. They only found 5 deaths that had no other real issue besides the vaccine. At that level more people died from shower accidents than vacccine-induced myocarditis (assuming that there was a causal link, which the authors are careful to say they didn't do that analysis).
anotheraccount9 4y ago
N is too small (but that's fine). The study is surely opening up an interesting window for future research. Could it be a side effect of (accidental) intravenous injections, leading to a more pronounced immune reaction?
fallenasleep 4y ago
This meta analysis cited in the OP is good for context: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9000914/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9000914/ >"The overall incidence of myopericarditis from 22 studies (405 272 721 vaccine doses) was 33·3 cases (95% CI 15·3–72·6) per million vaccine doses, and did not differ significantly between people who received COVID-19 vaccines (18·2 [10·9–30·3], 11 studies [395 361 933 doses], high certainty) and those who received non-COVID-19 vaccines (56·0 [10·7–293·7], 11 studies [9 910 788 doses], moderate certainty, p=0·20). Compared with COVID-19 vaccination, the incidence of myopericarditis was significantly higher following smallpox vaccinations (132·1 [81·3–214·6], p<0·0001) but was not significantly different after influenza vaccinations (1·3 [0·0–884·1], p=0·43) or in studies reporting on various other non-smallpox vaccinations (57·0 [1·1–3036·6], p=0·58). Among people who received COVID-19 vaccines, the incidence of myopericarditis was significantly higher in males (vs females), in people younger than 30 years (vs 30 years or older), after receiving an mRNA vaccine (vs non-mRNA vaccine), and after a second dose of vaccine (vs a first or third dose)."
TrispusAttucks 4y ago
Remember that time when everyone called you a conspiracy theorist if you mentioned that mRNA vaccines were inducing myocarditis in some individuals. Remember how they've been wrong about everything. Trust your instincts. Ignore propagandabots.
jeffbee 4y ago
I was reading it open-mindedly but the use of "jab" is pretty suspicious. Anyone found using this term can be pretty much dismissed outright, right?
- Bud 4y ago
  Yes. Especially when they put it in quotation marks and pretend that others said it, when they didn't.
bcaulfield 4y ago
Interesting, but I'd need far more medical knowledge than I have to put this into context. Does this mean people with existing heart conditions should avoid these vaccinations? Does it mean those at otherwise very low risk for severe COVID-19 shouldn't bother? I sure dunno.
spritefs 4y ago
When I got second dose of covid pfizer, I remember feeling really strange. My heart was beating really irregularly and I felt like I was struggling to breathe. My vision also started to gray out in a really weird way. I thought I was going to die in that pharmacy for a few minutes. When I snapped out of it, I was covered in sweat To this day, I don't know if it was a panic attack or a heart attack. Regardless, probably never getting another vaccine after this because just seeing a needle is enough to freak me out
- faddypaddy34 4y ago
  I had the same experience. I will never get a booster. Besides the ten minutes of thinking I was going to die, I ended up getting a severe case of COVID within 60 days of the "vaccine".
yellowapple 4y ago
Tiny sample size, and seemingly zero effort to determine whether the myocarditis was already present prior to vaccination. As usual, this fails to be the smoking gun antivaxxers want it to be.
eggy 4y ago
Some are talking about the risk of myocarditis after vaccination as being way less than the risk of dying from COVID. I would say this is just one thing popping up about the vaccines. There no long-term studies of the vaccination even if there are millions and millions of administered vaccines. It's only been three years since the first vaccination was given only 2 years ago, and the control group was burned by giving the placebo group of the control group the vaccine. We don't, and will not know the long-term effects of the vaccine for another 2 to 5 years. The NYT article cited using micromorts to compare this to a soldier in Afghanistan in 2010 is very disingenuous or just bad journalism. It's 12 years after 2010. Let's see where COVID vaccination studies lead to in 2032 for equivalence. Obesity, diabetes, and hypertension were THE amplifiers of COVID deaths, not just COVID. Obesity is the second leading cause of preventable deaths in the US. I contracted COVID pre-vaccine, and having natural immunity ignored completely by the CDC and ruling party, was socially irresponsible. I am speaking of the millions of Americans who had COVID before the vaccine, not people trying to get COVID to get natural immunity. My older children, who also had COVID, were forced by the universities they attended to get vaccinated and boosted. I really hope no long-term effects are found from the vaccine, but I have great distrust of Big Pharma, especially Pfizer. They even burned their control group for a long-term study under the argument they wanted to be humane and vaccinate the placebo group. Yeah, right. Stage 1 for the vaccine's EUA were supposed to include animal biodistribution studies, but even after looking through redacted documents released by Pfizer per the FOIA request to get them, it is not clear. Remember they said it is local to the injection site and breaks down quickly? Let's be prepared to adjust the micromort of the vaccine vs. non-vaccine for people who are not obese, diabetic, or suffer from hypertension and contract COVID in the next 3 to 7 years.
ccorxi 4y ago
What most of you still supporting "vaccine" failed to understand is that a jab cannot be developed in less that 1 year. It was a huge experiment and many people paid with either their lives or have suffered severe damage. All for a virus that kill less that common influenza, which a much more dangerous corona virus than covid.
- nwah1 4y ago
  Multiple statements you made are just wrong. There is no law of nature that says a vaccine cannot be made in a year, in the same way that there is no law of nature forbidding any of our technological artifacts that we use every day. Influenza is not a coronavirus. Influenza does not kill anywhere near as much as the original SARS-CoV-2 strain. And mortality was not the only concern regarding the pandemic.
- svnt 4y ago
  It never had before, because a commercial mRNA vaccine had never been the right trade off of immunity vs development time. Until COVID-19 there had not been a pandemic we needed to address with a vaccine since mRNA vaccination tech became widespread several decades ago. If we had enough time to develop a vaccine, why sell a new one that doesn’t work as well as the old kind?
- manv1 4y ago
  Actually, the vaccine was developed relatively quickly. The testing and ramp-up is what took the vast majority of time. You're sort of following the pre operation warp speed statements that the press and "experts" were spouting before they actually did it. But now there are vaccines for covid that are made in the standard fashion. It took them longer to get out of the gate, but they're around. Not sure if they're in the US, though.
shadowbanned-00 4y ago
Believe your own eyes and ears. The raw data became completely useless once the federal government gave hospitals a blank check for particular codes and treatments.
wesleywt 4y ago
Oh boy. The massive leaps in logic that this study will create on HN will be the greats leaps in leap history.
XiraceFulufuke 4y ago
I will just leave it here for everyone able to read between the lines https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDJ20spGymE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDJ20spGymE
brooklyndude 4y ago
We knew this over a year ago, but it's called "acceptable risk" by the CDC. The thing is they never told us that. But it was on that document you signed when you took your jab. You read the fine print right? Moderna had "This is an EXPERIMENTAL VACCINE" on all thier media until not that long ago, and then they just removed that warning. We don't even have clinical trials any more. Those Moderna shareholders are rough, once a week jab was the goal. That booster. Much upset there, when that did not go through. They tried to push "your dog, cats, all your pets WILL need a shot!" That did not get much traction, remember that news? Shareholders bailed. Lets all short TSLA was their next move. How markets work.

495 points by Octokiddie 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

puffoflogic 4y ago

colechristensen 4y ago
I don’t know if you’re joking or not.
- prvc 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law
- chomp 4y ago
  Based on their comment history, they are trolling.
tux3 4y ago
Assuming the post is irony, is this what you'd call a false flag? :)
echelon 4y ago
Everything should be open for research, and that shouldn't be political. I took the vaccine, but I'd like for more research to be done. This journal has an impact factor of 5, too, so they're not terrible.
chedca21 4y ago
But wait 15 minutes to see if your child gets anaphylaxis from them. We could have tested for allergy before giving the vaccine but its more convenient to have you wait around after. Don't worry if you experience allergic shock we have epinephrine on standby. It might not work and its use is associated with Alzheimer's onset but don't worry! Safe and effective!
- thewizardofaus 4y ago
  "But wait 15 minutes to see if your child gets anaphylaxis from them. We could have tested for allergy before giving the vaccine but its more convenient to have you wait around after." The waiting period of 15 minutes after a vaccine has always been recommended. It's standard medical recommendation and safety.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    These type of complaints has actually been really enlightening for me regarding how many people can't even be bothered to get the flu vaccine or their tetanus shots.
    - LarryMullins 4y ago
      I got a tetanus shot a year ago and they didn't ask me to wait around afterwards. They just handed me the paperwork and showed me the door (this was after they had already stitched me up.) I see the CDC website says that a 15 minute wait after getting a tetanus shot is recommended due to a fainting risk. But I bet this is not widely observed. I surmise they had already judged me to not be a fainting risk, since I didn't faint when they were sewing me.
      - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
        The CDC discusses anaphylaxis as a possible side effect of the tetanus shot too[1]. It would seem the difference between the two is an adherence to protocol as opposed to risk profiles. According to the CDC the rate of anaphylaxis is incredibly low with the COVID shot[2]. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/acip-recs/general-recs/adverse-reactions.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/acip-recs/general-recs/adve... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7002e1.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7002e1.htm
        chedca21 4y ago
        VAERS includes thousands of reports of death including broad anaphylaxis following their vaccination for CV. So what are you saying? Those lives are an acceptable cost for the convenience of skipping failsafes? You're essentially giving full confidence to an industry - so why stop at covid? Shouldn't you prophylactically vaccinate yourself against all the viruses on earth?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
moralestapia 4y ago
>6 researchers from an established medical institution in Germany, publishing a study on a reputable journal >a bunch of stochastic terrorists What an interesting way to see the world. /s

canadiantim 4y ago

I'm surprised this sort of post is even allowed to be discussed

dontwearitout 4y ago
I agree, it'll probably be scrubbed from the frontpage shortly. It's sad that this is the case, especially since it's published in a scientific journal.
- dang 4y ago
  The thread spent 11 hours on HN's front page.
whatshisface 4y ago
Myocarditis is rare and has been a part of the discussion from even before the vaccines were released, or at least the professional discussion. They were why the vaccines were not recommended for all ages to begin with.
- gfodor 4y ago
  The vaccines were and still are mandated for people not at risk of severe disease, and myocarditis has been framed as a side effect not worth worrying about despite the fact that it literally can kill you. Not to mention without understanding the mechanism of action, we cannot estimate the number of true deaths that occurred without a myocarditis diagnosis.
  - littlestymaar 4y ago
    > about despite the fact that it literally can kill you. There are many many things that can literally kill you. Heck, even anosmia can literally kill you under the right circumstances. What matters is the total number of vaccine-related myocarditis cases, and the total number of vaccine-related myocarditis death balanced with the number of covid related-death (including Covid-induced fatal myocarditis, because the virus itself has this effect), that's how you get a cost-benefit analysis.

danhak 4y ago

We coerced young, low-risk people into receiving these treatments despite known side effects on pain of losing their education or employment or being able to enter privately-owned establishments (irrespective of the wishes of the owners of those privately-owned establishments). We justified it with the specious argument that they were putting other people at undue risk by remaining unvaccinated. We claimed that vaccinated people would not spread the virus. And we gave the companies producing these vaccines blanket legal immunity from any potential liability.

scarmig 4y ago
Why should the companies be held liable? This was a government project enforced by the gun; the companies didn't force anyone to take their vaccines, and there's not a way they could have made them meaningfully safer given the timelines.
- krona 4y ago
  Then why did most of them sell it for profit?
- burner990 4y ago
  My employer wouldn't let me go to the office or even any offsites or outdoor actives (i.e. a picnic) until very recently. (Despite my approved religious exemption and "requiring" all employees to work in the office). If that isn't coercion to take an experimental vaccine i don't know what is.
  - threeseed 4y ago
    a) I wouldn't class it as experimental when hundreds of millions of people have taken it. b) It sounds like your employer did the right thing to balance your rights versus those of the people you work with.
    - addingadimensio 4y ago
      If an experiment is big enough it becomes a statistic

gfodor 4y ago

littlestymaar 4y ago
I'm not sure why you'd want a trial, since you've already decided its outcome. In reality all you want is a lynching.
kyleyeats 4y ago
Before all that let's discontinue our demonization of the unvaccinated.
- gfodor 4y ago
  Where is that still happening? (Genuine q)
  - hammock 4y ago
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05607-y https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05607-y > We find evidence in support of discriminatory attitudes against the unvaccinated in [nineteen different countries including the US] > Findings suggest that...the vaccinated react with discriminatory attitudes against...the unvaccinated. Elites and the vaccinated general public appealed to moral obligations to increase COVID-19 vaccine uptake but the present findings suggest that discriminatory attitudes including support for the removal of fundamental rights simultaneously emerged
  - fein 4y ago
    In the USA on a government level? No idea, at least it isn't a thing around where I live, but I also sit at home and get paid to write software. No idea what applying for jobs in some industries might look like. On the social level? People have fractured families over it and/or forced(you can't see your grand children unless you're vaxxed, for example)/coerced family members into getting it despite their otherwise refusal. I still know people who won't let non vaccinated people come over for events. It's a much rarer thing now, but the damage has been done.

chedca21 4y ago

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4425/rr-31 https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4425/rr-31 Covid-19: politicisation, “corruption,” and suppression of science "Professor John Ioannidis of Stanford University, quotes an infection fatality rate (IFR) for Covid of 0.00-0.57% (0.05% for under 70s), far lower than originally feared and no different to severe flu" -March 2020 The bigger scandal is how covid case:fatality rate was so much higher in some places than the global average. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/why-some-doctors-are-moving-away-ventilators-virus-patients-n1179986 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/why-some-doctors-...

colechristensen 4y ago
The fatality rate for a disease that is very often asymptomatic highly depends on testing. The rate will go way down in places where lots of people are required to or just do get treated frequently. Most asymptomatic cases will go unnoticed in places with less testing so the fatality rate will go way up. Also how you count whether or not a death gets tagged with covid matters. Lots of people had Covid and plenty of deaths will just coincidentally happen while a person has a minor infection which didn’t affect the outcome. How or when do you count that?
oneoff786 4y ago
Professor ioannidis forecasted 10,000 deaths in the US as a mid range guess of what to expect. He’s not exactly a good appeal to authority.
- chedca21 4y ago
  Ioannidis did a antigen survey and found the vast majority of cases were mild; https://apps.who.int/iris/handle/10665/340124 https://apps.who.int/iris/handle/10665/340124 A survey by the most cited epidemiologist alive is not a forecast for one. It is the best appeal to authority one can make. I've seen it shown that h1n1 in england in 2009 had a IFR of 0.05% which is greater than the revised figure for covid. Amazing how all the proof in the world makes such little difference to the average Luddite who will just defer to authority regardless. Stanley Milgram was clearly right about everything he said.

lxe 4y ago

"Graphical abstract"... lol why?

qorrect 4y ago
That caught me off guard too. 'Did he ... did he hand draw this' ?

uoflcards22 4y ago

As someone who did choose to get the latest booster despite being a young male (highest risk group for myocarditis I believe), we should always be questioning what we put in our bodies.

colechristensen 4y ago
Given the information i had at the time, I am fine with my unforced decision to get the first two doses, but I will not be getting a third barring some surprising new information, new variant, etc.
bittercynic 4y ago
>...we should always be questioning... I partially agree, or at least think we shouldn't be discouraged from questioning, but there's only so many hours in a day, and a person can digest a finite amount of information. I choose to trust US health authorities. Flawed as they may be, I think it would be worse to somehow try to verify every claim, or come to my own conclusions on every single question. I won't judge you for making a choice different from my own, but for me, and I suspect many (most?) people, having a doctor who you trust, following their recommendations, and getting on with your life might be the best strategy.
lazyasciiart 4y ago
I thought it wasn’t the highest risk group for myocarditis, just the lowest risk for covid which makes it the highest relative risk?
criddell 4y ago
> we should always be questioning what we put in our bodies If we did a better job of that, health problems associated with obesity, smoking, drinking, etc... would be reduced and that would have a pretty big impact on cardiovascular health too.

imode 4y ago

estewart 4y ago

The last paragraph in the article literally indicates there is no causal relationship or proof of any direct link between the vaccination and myocarditis. > "Finally, we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis."

jamespo 4y ago
Very few of the instant commenters read the study first it seems.
- ada1981 4y ago
  Haters will say it’s GPT-3ed.
DeusExMachina 4y ago
It states that they cannot provide a definitive proof or a causal link, not that there isn't one.
- giarc 4y ago
  As we say in epidemiology (and other fields), absence of evidence, isn't evidence of absence.
  - ngvrnd 4y ago
    but it is somewhat suggestive of absence.
    - SoftTalker 4y ago
      No, it really doesn't suggest anything either way.
nulld3v 4y ago
The study does suggest there might be a causal relationship. It is not able to provide definitive proof however.

librish 4y ago

A question for vaccine skeptics: For it to be a reasonable choice to not want to take the vaccine wouldn't you need to balance the risk of death / complications from the vaccine against the risk of death / complications from covid multiplied by the risk of getting covid? There seems to be a lot of "aha I knew it" whenever any side-effect of the vaccine is found, but aren't the side-effects of covid well established, on average more severe, and much more common?

Mikeb85 4y ago
> but aren't the side-effects of covid well established, on average more severe, and much more common? You forgot to account for the risk of getting the virus. If you choose to get the vaccine, the probability is 1. But what's the probability of getting Covid? Definitely less than 1. For certain age groups (young men), the risk of complications * probability of getting the vaccine (1) was more than the risk of complications from COVID * the probability of getting it (let's say 0.25 or so). Remember, COVID hasn't been shown to be particularly dangerous to young people...
- librish 4y ago
  COVID is much less dangerous to younger people but there are still very real risks involved, especially non-lethal ones. Assuming a 25% probability of catching it, how are you coming to the conclusion that the risk of the vaccine is higher?
  - Mikeb85 4y ago
    > risk of the vaccine is higher? I said within a certain demographic... For old people, the vaccine is obviously worth it. Boys/men from age 10-30, probably not. Hell, a bunch of EU countries literally stopped giving young people the Moderna vaccine: https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/11/10/germany-france-restrict-modernas-covid-vaccine-for-under-30s-over-rare-heart-risk-despite-surging-cases/?sh=156c85e32a8a https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/11/10/germany-f...
    - 4y ago

kaio 4y ago

Key takeaway: >>The reported incidence of (epi-)myocarditis after vaccination is low and the risks of hospitalization and death associated with COVID-19 are stated to be greater than the recorded risk associated with COVID-19 vaccination [29].

nyolfen 4y ago
the more interesting unaddressed question is, for whom? i am a young-ish healthy person, i have basically no risk of ending up in the hospital for covid. what is the risk tradeoff for people similar to me, rather than an abstraction of the entire population? what is the risk tradeoff for a young child, who effectively has zero risk of serious covid?
- aaomidi 4y ago
  Why do people keep thinking young people have no risk of ending up in the hospital for Covid? So many people have, and so many have died?
  - nyolfen 4y ago
    statistically, it is extremely unlikely[0] for an otherwise healthy young person to end up in the hospital for covid, much like myocarditis -- i am simply interested in which is more likely for specific population subsets [0] https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/figures/mm6915e3-F1.gif?_=57432 https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/figures/mm6915e3-F1.g... -- from https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6915e3.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6915e3.htm
    - eli 4y ago
      The numbers are so small that it is hard to say -- several long-term studies are ongoing. All the evidence suggests the risk of Covid is far greater. I'm sure you know this, but covid causes significantly more cases of myocarditis than the vaccine.

kaio 4y ago

marsven_422 4y ago

lame-robot-hoax 4y ago

Note: the ages in this study ranged from 46 to 75 for those who died.

fxtentacle 4y ago

These are very low numbers with only 5 vaccine+death cases found in an area with 8mio citizens. But they convincingly argue that accidentally injecting the vaccination into the bloodstream towards the heart may cause a heart infection similar to those seen in people who got sick with Covid.

nluken 4y ago

"Interestingly, we recorded inflammatory foci predominantly in the right heart, which may suggest a gradual blood-stream derived dilution effect and based on this finding it is at least tempting to speculate that inadvertent intravascular vaccine injection may be contributive." Does this indicate that the authors believe aspirating the vaccine during administration would reduce the risk of myocarditis? I don't have a biological background so I would be interested in hearing someone else's take on this but that sentence seems to indicate that the authors think ensuring correct administration would lower the risk of post-vaccine complications (which from what I've seen, remains low but non-zero). If that's the case, then perhaps the issue isn't as much with the vaccine itself as how it's being administered.

gfodor 4y ago
For a long time this theory always made the most sense to me, and frankly I assume I must just be missing something since it’s so obviously criminal if there was a chance this was true that it wasn’t blasted from the rooftops from the CDC (for the public to help correct it when they got their vaccine.)
hammock 4y ago
Yes. Complication from jab administration is something that has been widely discussed (not widely reported though). The clinical trials were supposed to show that the jab (and therefore the mRNA, and the resultant spike protein generated, which is known to be toxic) stayed in the muscle local to the injection site. What is widely speculated is that on some not-insubstantial portion of injections, the jab makes it into the bloodstream. This would explain why we see spike protein collecting in the heart, reproductive organs and other parts of the body. And because of how the jab works - inducing spike protein genesis as well as an immune response - when the immune system finds spike protein on the cells that are creating it (supposed to be just your arm muscle but ends up being your heart and other things), it starts attacking those cells. Which leads to inflammation, blood clots, etc.
- dontwearitout 4y ago
  A nurse friend of mine raised this as a concern. The protocol for intramuscular injections used to be (and in some places still is) to draw the plunger back a bit first to verify that you're in muscle, and haven't hit a small vein. If you pull blood, you find new spot. In practice this doesn't happen for covid vaccines, and her personal hypothesis was that many of the adverse reactions (myocarditis, or just being hit hard) were due to the vaccine partially being administered into a vein.

nulld3v 4y ago

I am vaccinated but I am upvoting this post because I believe that it is important to investigate these cases to determine how to improve future vaccines. I really don't like how this topic seems to be treated like some fringe conspiracy theory. Maybe it is just a conspiracy, but we won't ever know until sufficient research has been done. Currently, I still believe that people should vaccinate, even if vaccines cause mortality/harm in some cases. As long as vaccine side effects cause less deaths and less harm than the virus, vaccination is still the way to go. My position depends on us having a good understanding of the vaccine's effects however, and right now I feel like we don't.

lanstin 4y ago
Well your feeling is wrong. The data gathering to establish the risks is why we don't just update the mRNA monthly based on the latest viral RNA.
manwe150 4y ago
I agree it is good we keep funding studies to try to better understand and predict the effects of the vaccines. What would it mean to feel like we have a good understanding though? How would we quantify "god"? We have observed that the side-effects have minimal deviation from the normal variations observed in the population for those effects. And we also know it is highly dependent on individual characteristics as to who exhibits the worst side-effects or best antibody response.
- nulld3v 4y ago
  > What would it mean to feel like we have a good understanding though? How would we quantify "god"? That is a hard question and honestly I don't have the knowledge to answer it. > We have observed that the side-effects have minimal deviation from the normal variations observed in the population for those effects. And we also know it is highly dependent on individual characteristics as to who exhibits the worst side-effects or best antibody response. Yeah, I get that the vaccine can cause side effects for a very small minority of the population. I think what I want is for vaccine side-effects to be treated more like plane crashes. I get that bad things happen, but if it isn't cost-prohibitive, I would like to know why these things happened, even if they happen extremely rarely.

fzeroracer 4y ago

The discussion here is absolutely rancid. So here are the actual the salient points from the study: > Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. In four patients who received a mRNA vaccination, we identified acute (epi-)myocarditis without detection of another significant disease or health constellation that may have caused an unexpected death. Out of 25 people that died post-vaccination, four patients had signs of myocarditis. That's a fraction of a fraction of people. > Myocarditis is another manifestation reported during SARS-CoV-2-infection [24]. It is under debate whether myocarditis in COVID-19 is primarily caused by the viral infection or whether it occurs secondary as a consequence of the host´s immune response, in particular by T-lymphocyte-mediated cytotoxicity or as a consequence of the cytokine storm observed during COVID-19 We don't know whether or not Myocarditis is a result of the infection or the immune response; in either scenario people who are predisposed to myocarditis would likely have similar reactions during either infection or vaccine. > However, the vaccine against smallpox, based on a vaccinia virus, is reported to cause (epi-)myocarditis in rare cases Smallpox vaccines can also trigger myocarditis despite being a more 'traditional' vaccine. > The reported incidence of (epi-)myocarditis after vaccination is low and the risks of hospitalization and death associated with COVID-19 are stated to be greater than the recorded risk associated with COVID-19 vaccination [29]. Importantly, infectious agents may also cause lymphocytic myocarditis with a similar immunophenotype, thus meticulous molecular analyses is required in all cases of potentially vaccination-associated myocarditis. The risk factor is low and the chances of hospitalization and death from COVID-19 in even otherwise healthy people is higher versus the risk from vaccination, similar to other vaccinations. > Finally, we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis. Further studies and extended registry are needed to identify persons at risk for this potentially fatal AEFI and may be aided by detailed clinical, serological, and molecular analyses which were beyond the scope of this study. This is not a definitive link between the two, but rather a call for further investigation and to ensure that at-risk individuals are caught earlier and monitored.

SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
Yes, thank you. Also, important to call out ages here: > Median age at death was 58 years (range 46–75 years). I keep seeing "young men" over and over in the comments. These are not the people being studied here.

sfusato 4y ago

Multiple US universities still mandate the shots for young students in total opposition to Europe, for example: Harvard [0], Yale [1], Tufts University [2], University of California [3], New York University [4], University of Notre Dame [5], Boston University [6] [0] https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-information/ https://www.harvard.edu/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-informa... [1] https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-dean/messages-dean/updated-covid-19-vaccine-booster-requirements https://yalecollege.yale.edu/get-know-yale-college/office-de... [2] https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vaccinations-tufts https://coronavirus.tufts.edu/healthy-at-tufts/covid-19-vacc... [3] https://campusready.ucdavis.edu/covid-vaccination https://campusready.ucdavis.edu/covid-vaccination [4] https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-information/covid-related-guidance/covid-19-vaccine.html https://www.nyu.edu/life/safety-health-wellness/coronavirus-... [5] https://ndsmcobserver.com/2022/11/university-announces-additional-covid-19-booster-requirement/ https://ndsmcobserver.com/2022/11/university-announces-addit... [6] https://www.bu.edu/hr/hr-covid-19-resources/vaccine-required-for-faculty-and-staff/ https://www.bu.edu/hr/hr-covid-19-resources/vaccine-required... Is biology/science different in the US than in Europe?

frozencell 4y ago
Both seem mainly corrupted by finance, the later less than the former.

pianoben 4y ago

> Standardized autopsies were performed on 25 persons who had died unexpectedly and within 20 days after anti-SARS-CoV-2 vaccination. Sample size of 25 out of a population of... how many tens of millions of young (EDIT: not actually young) men? Seems quite small, and perhaps not sufficient to draw any conclusions. I wonder what the results will show... > myocarditis is another manifestation reported during SARS-CoV-2-infection [24]. It is under debate whether myocarditis in COVID-19 is primarily caused by the viral infection or whether it occurs secondary as a consequence of the host´s immune response, in particular by T-lymphocyte-mediated cytotoxicity or as a consequence of the cytokine storm observed during COVID-19 [25]. Interesting! > Finally, we cannot provide a definitive functional proof or a direct causal link between vaccination and myocarditis. Further studies and extended registry are needed to identify persons at risk for this potentially fatal AEFI and may be aided by detailed clinical, serological, and molecular analyses which were beyond the scope of this study. So in total, out of 25 young men, 20 showed signs of cardiac damage. It's suggestive and merits more research. On the other hand, the authors offer no real ideas about how the damage could have happened, other than to observe that since similar damage happens as a result of COVID-19, maybe the immune response is the culprit (provoked by the vaccine, similarly as by the disease). Far from any sort of smoking gun. It's important to keep that in mind.

joshuahedlund 4y ago
> out of 25 young men These were not young men > Three of the deceased persons were women, two men. Median age at death was 58 years (range 46–75 years).
- pianoben 4y ago
  My mistake; I misread something somewhere, and thought that the population was 30-and-younger men.
hammock 4y ago
>the authors offer no real ideas about how the damage could have happened They do, though. In fact that's the entirely novel value that this study brings. It's in the title: "histopathological characterization of myocarditis after anti-SARS-CoV-2-vaccination." That's a lot of words that means "we can now tell you exactly what microscopic tissue looks like following lethal jab-associated myocarditis.” And the scientists discuss how it happens. For your benefit, I'll describe it here. These mRNA-vaccinated patients suffered from heart damage because their hearts were attacked by their own immune cells. The mRNA is injected into your muscle cells, turning the cell into a factory producing COVID-19 spike proteins. As a result of the mRNA immunization, your body generates an immune response against COVID-19 spike proteins. Since your own muscle cells were used to make the COVID-19 spike proteins and may have them on the cell surface, your newly-weaponized immune cells targeting the spike protein may start attacking your own healthy muscle cells. This autoimmune attack on their own heart cells then leads to their damaged hearts beating so many times per second that, once the tachycardia unexpectedly started, they died in minutes. This new German study shows photographic evidence that this happens and has killed people

almostnormal 4y ago

> Of note, it has been recently reported that intravenous injection of COVID-19 mRNA vaccine is able to induce an acute (epi-) myocarditis in a preclinical model There have been lots of vaccinations shown in various TV reports over the last years. Watching carefully, there's two different variants: a) jab, aspirate, inject, b) jab, inject. Maybe it is just stock footage and not from covid shots, and everyone has been checking carefully for not finding blood?

athenot 4y ago

What this article does describe, is how the fatal "adverse events" take place. It's useful to deepen our understanding of the mechanisms of action for undesireable outcomes. And of course it's one piece of a much larger puzzle. Some seem to be interpreting this article as a confirmation that vaccines are inherently not safe. The thing is, every therapy, whether preventative or curative carries an element of risk. This paper is not weighing on the relative safety of the immunization. To someone uncomfortable with the vaccine, this is of course unsettling to discuss, as it reinforces a fear. It's akin to discussing how exactly people's organs got smashed when they got killed by getting ran over by a bus. People who distrust busses will further cement their fears about them.

jmyeet 4y ago

It feels like 2021 again. Small sample size (n = 25), small number of incidents of myocarditis, no causal link found between myocarditis and adverse events (including, but not limited to, death) and no causal link found between mRNA vaccines and myocarditis. But do you what does cause myocarditis? Getting Covid [1]. Covid and the (highly effective) vaccines are the most clearcut case of evolution in action [2] I've seen in my lifetime. This isn't really worth worrying about this point. Countries (barring China) have largely decided they're over Covid. Get a vaccine, don't get a vaccine. Nobody cares. Looking for justification for not getting a vaccine however reminds me of creationists trying to equate "intelligent design" as "science". [1]: https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-poses-higher-risk-for-myocarditis-than-vaccines https://www.heart.org/en/news/2022/08/22/covid-19-infection-... [2]: https://quotepark.com/quotes/1800059-larry-niven-think-of-it-as-evolution-in-action/ https://quotepark.com/quotes/1800059-larry-niven-think-of-it...

DoreenMichele 4y ago

Overall, autopsy findings indicated death due to acute arrhythmogenic cardiac failure. Arrhythmia can be an indicator you need zinc. Proatherogenic factors, released during Zn deficiency, increase the incidence of arrhythmias, strokes, CM, and many other CV system pathologies https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2021.686078/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2021.68607... Prior discussion with a researcher points to zinc as significant wrt covid.

seydor 4y ago

Regardless of any possible danger of vaccination, one has to also consider that vaccination doesnt prevent infection, which is important. As more studies come to light it s becoming evident that Covid damages our bodies in many ways, even with mild infections, it weakens our immune systems and the damage is cumulative every time we catch it. We should be preventing infections , with measures that are appropriate, instead of trying to mitigate the symptoms as we do with vaccines.

SnowProblem 4y ago

Why is it so hard to find data showing how often people are dying, no matter the cause, broken down by vaccination status and age? Surely that would help clear things up. Lots of countries publish COVID-19 mortality rates which show benefits for vaccinated but that's really not helpful for understanding overall risk of vaccines. The UK is the only country I could find that publishes this data and unless I'm missing something things look really bad. Table 2 in [1] shows a 2-3x higher mortality rate for vaccinated vs. unvaccinated in almost all groups this year. Perhaps the unvaccinated are healthier on average, maybe, but 2-3x healthier? Yeah, don't think so. What's going on? [1] https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/deathsbyvaccinationstatusengland https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsde....

sdnas211 4y ago
That is showing the raw numbers - they aren't adjusted for vaccinated/unvaccinated population sizes. ~53 million people have had at least one shot, and there are around 6 million children under 10 (so not counted in the figures you linked). With a population of about 68 million total, the unvaccinated all causes figures should be about 16% of the ever vaccinated. The ratio should skew further in older age ranges, as a higher proportion of those were vaccinated.
- SnowProblem 4y ago
  It also shows mortality rates per 100,000. That's what I was referring to. For example, here are the rates of all-cause mortality for the most last month they released, May 2022, for the 40-49 group: - Unvaccinated: 64.1 - One dose: 171.5 - Two doses: 106.4 - Three doses: 83.7
  - mint2 4y ago
    Lest someone draw the statistically unsound but temping surface level conclusion from this, consider that people with pre-existing conditions and especially severe ones would have more incentive to have three doses. There is self selection on these groups, they are not random samples.

manv1 4y ago

People will believe whatever they want to believe. They only found 5 deaths that had no other real issue besides the vaccine. At that level more people died from shower accidents than vacccine-induced myocarditis (assuming that there was a causal link, which the authors are careful to say they didn't do that analysis).

anotheraccount9 4y ago

N is too small (but that's fine). The study is surely opening up an interesting window for future research. Could it be a side effect of (accidental) intravenous injections, leading to a more pronounced immune reaction?

fallenasleep 4y ago

This meta analysis cited in the OP is good for context: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9000914/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9000914/ >"The overall incidence of myopericarditis from 22 studies (405 272 721 vaccine doses) was 33·3 cases (95% CI 15·3–72·6) per million vaccine doses, and did not differ significantly between people who received COVID-19 vaccines (18·2 [10·9–30·3], 11 studies [395 361 933 doses], high certainty) and those who received non-COVID-19 vaccines (56·0 [10·7–293·7], 11 studies [9 910 788 doses], moderate certainty, p=0·20). Compared with COVID-19 vaccination, the incidence of myopericarditis was significantly higher following smallpox vaccinations (132·1 [81·3–214·6], p<0·0001) but was not significantly different after influenza vaccinations (1·3 [0·0–884·1], p=0·43) or in studies reporting on various other non-smallpox vaccinations (57·0 [1·1–3036·6], p=0·58). Among people who received COVID-19 vaccines, the incidence of myopericarditis was significantly higher in males (vs females), in people younger than 30 years (vs 30 years or older), after receiving an mRNA vaccine (vs non-mRNA vaccine), and after a second dose of vaccine (vs a first or third dose)."

TrispusAttucks 4y ago

Remember that time when everyone called you a conspiracy theorist if you mentioned that mRNA vaccines were inducing myocarditis in some individuals. Remember how they've been wrong about everything. Trust your instincts. Ignore propagandabots.

jeffbee 4y ago

I was reading it open-mindedly but the use of "jab" is pretty suspicious. Anyone found using this term can be pretty much dismissed outright, right?

Bud 4y ago
Yes. Especially when they put it in quotation marks and pretend that others said it, when they didn't.

bcaulfield 4y ago

Interesting, but I'd need far more medical knowledge than I have to put this into context. Does this mean people with existing heart conditions should avoid these vaccinations? Does it mean those at otherwise very low risk for severe COVID-19 shouldn't bother? I sure dunno.

spritefs 4y ago

When I got second dose of covid pfizer, I remember feeling really strange. My heart was beating really irregularly and I felt like I was struggling to breathe. My vision also started to gray out in a really weird way. I thought I was going to die in that pharmacy for a few minutes. When I snapped out of it, I was covered in sweat To this day, I don't know if it was a panic attack or a heart attack. Regardless, probably never getting another vaccine after this because just seeing a needle is enough to freak me out

faddypaddy34 4y ago
I had the same experience. I will never get a booster. Besides the ten minutes of thinking I was going to die, I ended up getting a severe case of COVID within 60 days of the "vaccine".

yellowapple 4y ago

Tiny sample size, and seemingly zero effort to determine whether the myocarditis was already present prior to vaccination. As usual, this fails to be the smoking gun antivaxxers want it to be.

eggy 4y ago

Some are talking about the risk of myocarditis after vaccination as being way less than the risk of dying from COVID. I would say this is just one thing popping up about the vaccines. There no long-term studies of the vaccination even if there are millions and millions of administered vaccines. It's only been three years since the first vaccination was given only 2 years ago, and the control group was burned by giving the placebo group of the control group the vaccine. We don't, and will not know the long-term effects of the vaccine for another 2 to 5 years. The NYT article cited using micromorts to compare this to a soldier in Afghanistan in 2010 is very disingenuous or just bad journalism. It's 12 years after 2010. Let's see where COVID vaccination studies lead to in 2032 for equivalence. Obesity, diabetes, and hypertension were THE amplifiers of COVID deaths, not just COVID. Obesity is the second leading cause of preventable deaths in the US. I contracted COVID pre-vaccine, and having natural immunity ignored completely by the CDC and ruling party, was socially irresponsible. I am speaking of the millions of Americans who had COVID before the vaccine, not people trying to get COVID to get natural immunity. My older children, who also had COVID, were forced by the universities they attended to get vaccinated and boosted. I really hope no long-term effects are found from the vaccine, but I have great distrust of Big Pharma, especially Pfizer. They even burned their control group for a long-term study under the argument they wanted to be humane and vaccinate the placebo group. Yeah, right. Stage 1 for the vaccine's EUA were supposed to include animal biodistribution studies, but even after looking through redacted documents released by Pfizer per the FOIA request to get them, it is not clear. Remember they said it is local to the injection site and breaks down quickly? Let's be prepared to adjust the micromort of the vaccine vs. non-vaccine for people who are not obese, diabetic, or suffer from hypertension and contract COVID in the next 3 to 7 years.

ccorxi 4y ago

What most of you still supporting "vaccine" failed to understand is that a jab cannot be developed in less that 1 year. It was a huge experiment and many people paid with either their lives or have suffered severe damage. All for a virus that kill less that common influenza, which a much more dangerous corona virus than covid.

nwah1 4y ago
Multiple statements you made are just wrong. There is no law of nature that says a vaccine cannot be made in a year, in the same way that there is no law of nature forbidding any of our technological artifacts that we use every day. Influenza is not a coronavirus. Influenza does not kill anywhere near as much as the original SARS-CoV-2 strain. And mortality was not the only concern regarding the pandemic.
svnt 4y ago
It never had before, because a commercial mRNA vaccine had never been the right trade off of immunity vs development time. Until COVID-19 there had not been a pandemic we needed to address with a vaccine since mRNA vaccination tech became widespread several decades ago. If we had enough time to develop a vaccine, why sell a new one that doesn’t work as well as the old kind?
manv1 4y ago
Actually, the vaccine was developed relatively quickly. The testing and ramp-up is what took the vast majority of time. You're sort of following the pre operation warp speed statements that the press and "experts" were spouting before they actually did it. But now there are vaccines for covid that are made in the standard fashion. It took them longer to get out of the gate, but they're around. Not sure if they're in the US, though.

shadowbanned-00 4y ago

Believe your own eyes and ears. The raw data became completely useless once the federal government gave hospitals a blank check for particular codes and treatments.

wesleywt 4y ago

Oh boy. The massive leaps in logic that this study will create on HN will be the greats leaps in leap history.

XiraceFulufuke 4y ago

I will just leave it here for everyone able to read between the lines https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDJ20spGymE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDJ20spGymE

brooklyndude 4y ago

We knew this over a year ago, but it's called "acceptable risk" by the CDC. The thing is they never told us that. But it was on that document you signed when you took your jab. You read the fine print right? Moderna had "This is an EXPERIMENTAL VACCINE" on all thier media until not that long ago, and then they just removed that warning. We don't even have clinical trials any more. Those Moderna shareholders are rough, once a week jab was the goal. That booster. Much upset there, when that did not go through. They tried to push "your dog, cats, all your pets WILL need a shot!" That did not get much traction, remember that news? Shareholders bailed. Lets all short TSLA was their next move. How markets work.