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Just how complicated could it be to register a German company?

• mtmail 4y ago
  Creating 3x a personal company for the founders is not a required step. Germany expects those personal companies to be conducting business so it's all those steps like a "real" company. The 3 founders could've just created the real GmbH company and be 3 shareholders. The founders also could've created a UG (mini-GmbH), plenty of startups do. It's no clear from the blog post why they do the real GmbH. Possibly because a mini-GmbH can't be owned by 3 personal companies. Well, sure, in that case you need those 25000 Euro on the bank account. Transparenzregister (transparency registry) was new in 2021. The notary should've done that step. Germany kind of added the registry so people can't hide behind personal companies when doing business. Chamber of Commerce for an IT company is weird indeed. Makes sense for businesses that need special permissions, certifications or have regional limits (let's say pharmacies) but not IT. Think of Gewerbeamt as local taxes vs federal taxes. Gewerbeamt is your city taxes. While federal tax rate is the same everywhere, city tax rate differs and allows them to compete a bit. "so we had to agree with our investors that we would transfer the remaining 12,500€ over the next couple of years." Strange to have investors and then not have them pay the full amount. They're saving money here, true, but then shouldn't complain that this part of the process is not straight-forward. Using a tax accountant for a GmbH company is not required. The author doesn't seem to grasp even the function of some of the contracts he signed so he should of course use a professional to file the annual accounts forms. If you have money from investors and skip many of the steps: buy a holding company, costs 5000 Euro. You pay 30000 Euro and receive a ready-for-you company with bank account of 25000 Euro. Then go to a notary and have, in a single document, change the company name, change the shareholders, move it to the desired city.
  • Major_Grooves 4y ago
    OP here - the holding companies are indeed for obligatory, but they are what nearly all startup founders do for tax efficiency. We took a 1.2M € investment round. Investors do not want to invest that into anything other than a "proper" Germany company. The investors can't (or should not) pay any money towards the 25k €. We had 1.2M € go into the bank account, but we have to agree that we are liable for the 12.5k € and pay it in ourselves over time.
  • quonn 4y ago
    > buy a holding company Wow, I didn't know this. Interesting. Apparently you can even buy it for just 3500 Euros (28500 in total) and already registered in your city of choice (presumably for the larger cities). It seems like the problem, then, is transferring the bank account (the new owners nee to be authenticated). I'm not sure this is easier than creating the company from scratch.
    • mtmail 4y ago
      We bought a holding company, I should've made that more clear in my previous comment. Bank account transfer was straight forward. The advantage is speed, you're ready to do business in a couple of days vs waiting for various paperworks for weeks.
  • csomar 4y ago
    > If you have money from investors and skip many of the steps: buy a holding company, costs 5000 Euro. You pay 30000 Euro and receive a ready-for-you company with bank account of 25000 Euro. Then go to a notary and have, in a single document, change the company name, change the shareholders, move it to the desired city. Is this a good idea? How do you make sure the company doesn't have any liabilities or did any shady transactions.
• Daimanta 4y ago
  "The whole process should be in English. I don’t care that it is Germany. English. English. English. I speak decent German, but the vocabulary of company incorporation was not covered in my Volkhochschule classes nor Duolingo." The process is difficult because I refuse to learn the language of the country. My first reaction was "What an absolute asshole", my second reaction is the same but with a paragraph of text explaining the reasons he's an asshole.
  • Major_Grooves 4y ago
    That is wilfully distorting what I have written. I have learnt German. I speak fluent German. I am German. The language is only one part of what makes it complicated. It is very difficult for Germans too. Nevertheless, the whole process should be translated into English if the country wants to attract foreigners to come here and set up companies. Current status is that people are warned against incorporating here.
    • sgt 4y ago
      You should have put it in another way, then. Anyway, the main issue here doesn't seem the language, rather that the process itself is complicated no matter how you look at it. I think that should be the point of focus which I guess you did, but the rant about German was a bit distracting.)
      • Major_Grooves 4y ago
        yeah I did edit the article afterwards to admit the comment was flippant and explain what I really meant. Language is the small part of the problem here. Really, it is the process that is bad.
    • petre 4y ago
      > the whole process should be translated into English if the country wants to attract foreigners to come here and set up companies Good luck with that - Ausländern setting up companies in Germany without speaking German. They'll probably incorporate in Estonia or Ireland. It's way easier to set up a company in post communist Eastern Europe.
• vikramkr 4y ago
  That is a wildly complicated process - but it sounds like the advice was to incorporate somewhere else where it's easier instead? I guess that's fine with the common market? Why not just do that instead of going through all this hassle?
  • Major_Grooves 4y ago
    once upon a time people would just register in the UK, to make things simpler. Biggest example is Soundcloud that started as a UK Ltd. However since Brexit, nobody does that. We considered incorporating as a US company, but that seemed OTT. Maybe we will do a flip later. Lots of people suggest registering in Estonia as they apparently make it very easy, but I have never actually heard of a venture backed company that did that.
    • shp0ngle 4y ago
      Wouldn’t Ireland be better? At least they speak English
      • nibbleshifter 4y ago
        Ireland's decent, but Estonia has a way to do it fully online in English. The Irish process ... Well, is much less streamlined. Still a damn sight better than Germany though
• Stention314 4y ago
  I did this and found it reasonable easy to create it. It has a sensible layer of complexity for what you get out of it. Your German rant is still stupid, no one would do that manually or would otherwise just take the time and effort to learn what is necessary. Unfortunately for this discussion I have no clue how the UK version really compares to the German one and I also don't know from a statistical point of view if this is a real problem. After all just creating some company implies a lot of things you need to know anyway like doing the taxes right and doing all other critical things like the yearly get together with all participants.
  • Major_Grooves 4y ago
    maybe to expand - this isn't really about me. I managed successfully and now have my company. but there is a reason that a significant proportion of the startups in Germany were UK Ltds until Brexit cooled that down. I don't take it as a positive sign for the process that people will literally use another country's registration process because the home one is so bad.
    • quonn 4y ago
      > there is a reason that a significant proportion of the startups in Germany were UK Ltd The reason was that the GmbH required depositing 25k. But the UG already solved that problem and afterwards the UK Ldt didn't really make sense anymore.
      • Major_Grooves 4y ago
        It is not just that, it is how difficult it is to invest into a German company afterwards, requiring each individual investor to visit a notary. We had some investors refuse to invest in us as a German company because it was just too much hassle, and not worth the cost if they made a relatively small 10k€ investment. UK Ltd much easier to invest into.
        • hef19898 4y ago
          You seem to have serious lack in understanding when it cmes to legal entities. If you have a small number of large outside investors, a GmbH isn't adding much hassle. If you have multiple small investors, choose a different legal entity form. Those do come with different sets of requirements. Legal consultation helps, I would even say is necessary, regardless of country. In the end it comes down to cost of business. If the German market is interessting enough, a GmbH is just one thing to do. If it is not, pick another EU country.
• formerly_proven 4y ago
  It's German bureaucracy, of course it's incomprehensible, slow and in person.
  • shp0ngle 4y ago
    I think they upgraded from in person. They support faxes now
    • luckylion 4y ago
      When you get foreign payments > 12.5k in a month, you need to report them to the Bundesbank. You can do that online. But only on weekdays and from 9am to 4pm on Saturday, because ... I suspect it's labor laws and to be safe they assume servers have to be treated as employees. I'm not joking: https://www.bundesbank.de/de/service/extranet/-/zugangszeiten-609072 https://www.bundesbank.de/de/service/extranet/-/zugangszeite... And they enforce it, too. Logging in on a Sunday will only get you an error message.
• quonn 4y ago
  I did it, it's very easy. It just requires opening a bank account and then an appointment at the notary. All in all it takes about two hours. Obviously in Germany the documents are in German, this should not be a surprise. Most people doing business there will speak German and I'm sure many lawyers would help those who do not with the setup. edit: Yes, you need a tax accountant to do your taxes later, but that's not related to registering. They also can do your normal accounting which you will need if you pay salaries. It's normal in most countries.
  • Major_Grooves 4y ago
    I don't think there is any way you can describe that process that I list in the post as "very easy".
    • pizza234 4y ago
      Since the tone is hyperbolic, it's hard to discern how much it has been exaggerated/misrepresented (I suspect a lot). For example, for someone who describes themselves as: > I have learnt German. I speak fluent German. I am German. The following: > To have the Steuerberater file your tax returns on your behalf, you have to grant them Power of Attorney, so that is another nice form for you to fill out. I could have signed away one of my kidneys for all I know. It’s in German. is grossly misrepresented. Power of attorney forms are generally easy to understand. Here's a sample one: https://www.vollmacht-muster.de/diverse-vollmachten/vollmacht-steuerberater https://www.vollmacht-muster.de/diverse-vollmachten/vollmach.... Anybody who's fluent in German could read and understand it, certainly not mistaking it for signing a kidney away. For those who don't, forms like this can be discussed with an English-speaking accountant (and there are), no reason to fuss about. EDIT: No doubt that Germany has an English language problem - a significant part of the 40/45+ y.o. population speaks it poorly, so bureaucracy is definitely a problem. This also applies to the south of Europe, though.
      • Major_Grooves 4y ago
        No misrepresentation. Not even really any exaggeration I would say. Some attempts at humour, yes (like the PoA bit).ie I was aware the PoA would not affect my kidneys.
• odysseus 4y ago
  Your rant reminds me about this article ( https://superr.in/economy/i-tried-starting-a-manufacturing-unit-in-india/ https://superr.in/economy/i-tried-starting-a-manufacturing-u... ) - it might be even harder than what you went through.
  • Karupan 4y ago
    Not defending the draconian process or the pain the author went through - but wildly different scenario. Building anything on agricultural land should face scrutiny.
    • djbebs 4y ago
      Why?
      • gopher_space 4y ago
        There’s only so much of it.
• WalterBright 4y ago
  The last time I started a business in Washington State, it involved putting the company name and address on a form, attaching a check for $50, and mailing it to the government.
  • DizzyDoo 4y ago
    In the UK it's really easy too, perhaps even easier, the registration form is entirely online [0] and then you pay £12. [0] - https://www.gov.uk/limited-company-formation/register-your-company https://www.gov.uk/limited-company-formation/register-your-c...
  • duxup 4y ago
    Here in Minnesota it costs anywhere from $50 to $220 (depends on type of business you create) and you can do it online.
  • itronitron 4y ago
    The hard part in the US is figuring out the taxes.
    • WalterBright 4y ago
      The hard part is when you start hiring people. Then you're gonna need professional help.
  • tomschwiha 4y ago
    You can start a business in Germany too for 15€ (Gewerbeanmeldung). The more "complicated" stuff (as I founded my UG in Germany it was a few clicks and one personal appointment) is required if you want the limited liablity part. So the trust establishment that it IS a real company behind.
• etaioinshrdlu 4y ago
  Surely the author is exaggerating every time he mentions "go to prison"?
  • Major_Grooves 4y ago
    I'm joking about going to prison and possibly losing a kidney because of a PoA.
• lqet 4y ago
  I registered a basic company - but without limited liability - around 5 years ago in Germany. I put my name, address, and the company name onto a 1 page PDF (form GewA1 [0]), sent it via email to town hall and received a confirmation and an invoice (I think it was 30 EUR?) a few days later. I was then owner of a company. The whole process took 10 minutes in total. The registration with the IHK was done automatically (the IHK is a kind of business lobby organization, and the required membership ensures that it does not only represent large companies). The tax office was also informed automatically. This article is a strange rant by someone who seems to be infinitely surprised that: 1) You have to register your company with some authority. 2) Business is conducted in the countries official language. ("The whole process should be in English. I don't care that it is Germany. English. English. English.") 3) Legal documents should be notarized ("What is a Notary? I’m not sure") 4) Diverting company money into your private pocket is a crime ("Really, no joke, only use it for your company. Our notary did emphasise to us quite strongly that to do otherwise with that €300, would basically be fraud, and we could go to prison. Cool.") 5) Storing company money on a bank account is usually a good idea ("Do you really need a bank account? I have no idea. Theoretically not, but if you dare suggest that to anyone that you won’t bother with a company bank account they foretell doom and catastrophe, so I just shut up set up a bank account.") 6) You have to pay taxes, and it might be more complicated to do taxes for a limited liability company than for a private person. Also: > Find a Steuerberater (Tax consultant) Yeah, you need one of these to do the tax return for your not-really-doing-anything personal holding company. This will be expensive. No. You don't need a tax consultant. You can do the taxes yourself if you want. [0] https://www.gewerbeanmeldung.de/formular-gewerbeanmeldung https://www.gewerbeanmeldung.de/formular-gewerbeanmeldung
  • quonn 4y ago
    Exactly. It seems like the complaint here is that creating a limited is more involved. And it is - but not much. Yes, there is a cost for the notary and accountant and that makes it a bit expensive if you want to create subsidies later. But the paper work is not the hard part.
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
• odiroot 4y ago
  Having lived in Germany, this brings back a few bad memories. So many processes feel overly complicated, frequently requiring lawyers or other highly-paid specialists. Add stacks of papers on top of that, faxes, certified translations etc. Sometimes it feels, like the State there acts as a great gatekeeper instead of a facilitator. Other times, you may feel, there's a "cartel" between the government officials and the aforementioned specialists -- pay some agent to magically pull out a near appointment slot, instead of waiting a few months to see a clerk. I could speak B2-level German, so the language wasn't really that much of a problem. I can only imagine how much harder it's for people just starting in Germany.
  • dakiol 4y ago
    Depends. If you are European (and work on IT) and immigrate to Germany without knowing the language, it's not that hard because there isn't so much paperwork you need to do. Basically: - registration (it's rather easy, and sometimes they do speak English) - bank account. It's all online (why would you prefer it otherwise?), so google translate is all you need - job. Well, there are plenty of IT jobs in Germany that do not require German (and they are usually the ones who pay more) - health insurance. Some companies speak English, and all the public health insurance companies offer rather the same, so go for the English-speaking ones - apartment. Just show them your software-engineer-who-only-speaks-english payroll (or contract if you don't have a payroll yet) and you'll probably become their most promising applicant - doctors. They all speak English (if you find one that doesn't or refuses then just find another) If you intend to live in the country for some years, you'll be fine with little German (B1 level). If you want to live there for more than 10 years then sure go learn the language properly. For the ones who are not european and do not work on IT, tons of paperwork and suffering if you don't know the language from the very beginning.
    • ChuckNorris89 4y ago
      >- apartment. Just show them your software-engineer-who-only-speaks-english payroll (or contract if you don't have a payroll yet) and you'll probably become their most promising applicant That's not entirely accurate and YMMV. One, unless you work for a FANG or a well funded scale-up, not everyone moving to Germany on a dev job will be making super high wages, which is what's needed to stand out at an apartment visit, as other more traditional skilled professions in German big cities also make good money, and high-paying dev jobs are difficult to land. And two, usually German landlords tend to prefer a local on a stable, if average paid government job (teacher, doctor, police officer, notary, social worker, birocrat, etc.) than an foreign IT worker on higher wage who just arrived in the country, doesn't speak German, has no rental/employment/credit history yet, and hasn't passed his probation period yet, and all he has is an employment contract with a large number on it.
• TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  Register a company in Estonia or Netherlands and do business in EU through there.
• quonn 4y ago
  Being German myself, German government sucks at all things digital and that would be my main complaint. They still work with FAX machines and you often have to either use that or show up in person. Should be replaced by apps or similar. The processes themselves are actually quite easy and efficient. Certainly not more difficult than in other countries. I have lived and dealt with paperwork in the US, various European countries, Asia and South America, so I think I can compare.
  • tomschwiha 4y ago
    Doing business since 10 years and never used a fax machine to communicate with the government. Email worked fine. Maybe depends on which state.
    • jmercouris 4y ago
      Well, I can tell you that it doesn't just depend on the Bundelsand, it also depends even on the Kiez that you are in. I remember things being quite different in different parts of Berlin :-(
• earthnail 4y ago
  I have a GmbH, and I'm German. The process is more complicated than in other countries because of the notary. The notary doesn't really add value in this process, he/she just costs a lot of money. The German Standards Setting Institute, a private organization which provides lots of standard template documents for startups, actually make it a focus to minimize the notary costs in many of their docs (and ironically, they have notaries helping them because some notaries also think it's ridiculous). It is much simpler to set up a limited company in the UK, for comparison (which I've also done). And everything the author describes, about the IHK for example, and the Bundesanzeiger Verlag, appears completely stupid to me, too. What value exactly does the IHK provide me? I asked my tax consultant that, too, and he gave me a vague answer along the lines of "they do stuff for you and it's good", and I still have no clue what the IHK does for me. The official letter for the Bundesanzeiger Verlag states "we know that you probably received a lot of fraudulent mail asking you to wire money to other bank accounts. Do not trust them, only trust this letter and send money to the following bank account." Really? Your word on your letter vs their word on theirs? WTF?!? Yes, it is ridiculous.
  • tomschwiha 4y ago
    IHK is responsible for local advertising and recruiting and acts as a middle agency beween government and industry. They give sometimes interesting talks and you can reach out for assistance. Not much to complain about for the price imho. Just because you don't need it on your own doesn't mean other founders or existing companies don't need it. With the foundation of a company you have some obligations and this one is one of those - strengthening the local market. (If you can't afford 150€ or 0,129% percent of your profit your business is not sustainable (referring to your value question)).
    • dsnr 4y ago
      The classic argument, if you can’t pay XXX$ for some bullshit someone else invented and that doesn’t belong in 21st century, then you’re business is not sustainable. IHKs exist for the sole purpose of lining their fat pockets on other people’s hard work, like other professions in Germany, notary included. > Just because you don't need it on your own doesn't mean other founders or existing companies don't need it. Then they should be free to hire them on their own dime.
• watwut 4y ago
  I find it super normal that forms are in the official language of the country. That is whole point of official language - language in which you communicate officially.
  • nibbleshifter 4y ago
    In many other countries they offer official translations, and the government body will bear the cost of interpreting. Germany is almost uniquely hostile to foreigners in this regard.
    • q-big 4y ago
      > In many other countries they offer official translations, and the government body will bear the cost of interpreting. > Germany is almost uniquely hostile to foreigners in this regard. Do English-speaking countries offer such services for, say, Polish or Italian native speakers?
      • jmercouris 4y ago
        Yes, they often do. It depends on what the second majority language is where you are, but many things are offered in Spanish (for example).
        • watwut 4y ago
          Polish or Italian was the question. We know USA has large Spanish speaking population.
          • jmercouris 4y ago
            I can't say about Polish or Italian specifically, but I have seen instructions available in Mandarin and other languages available. Anyways, the spirit of the question is the same. In Germany they should have these documents available in Turkish and English.
    • 4y ago
• rapht 4y ago
  My company is in the process of buying out a German group. To do that, we needed to set up a new holding company which would own the target group's shares. Without exception, ALL our advisors/lawyers (both in Germany and out) recommended that we just pay the services of an "offshore provider" to buy an existing shell company with an already established and registered proxy director, instead of going through the creation process of a GmbH. "It's the most complicated process in the EU, and a PITA for all individuals involved.", they said. We followed their advice.
  • codethief 4y ago
    Yes, setting up a GmbH might be a bit of paperwork for a solo founder who has to do all the paper work on their own[0]. But for a company having enough resources to buy another one? Lol. [0]: I've done it before and it's actually quite straightforward. The actual work begins when you do the bookkeeping & declare your taxes. But for that you've got accountants.
• t8sr 4y ago
  During covid WFH, my partner and I moved to Berlin for three months to study German. We stayed on the seventh floor of a nice apartment building, where the elevator broke on the second day of our stay. The owner of the apartment offered us some money as compensation, but kindly informed us that repairing the elevator would require a vote by all the people who own the building together and might take a few months to organize. (By the time we left three months later, it still hadn't been repaired.) One day I was in the same classroom with someone who later tested positive for covid19, and the school told us to go home and check with the health authorities about self-isolating. They started us off with a website and a covid hotline phone number, and off we all went. None of the students had the German covid app, because Robert Koch Institute (German CDC) hadn't made it available outside of the German App Store because of invented reasons that no other country in Europe apparently had. I spent the rest of that afternoon trying to find out how long to isolate. The information wasn't available on any website, and the COVID hotline was disconnected, Finally, after finding a phone number at the city health office that was connected to someone who wasn't on vacation (which, at any moment, is about 50% of German government employees), I learned that the rules differed per Borough of Berlin. I had to isolate for 48 hours. My classmate, three blocks down the road, for a week. The same classmate later told me that she had moved to Berlin to work at a German company, but still hadn't finished setting up her residency paperwork. The latest step at that time was receiving a letter from some German department, which she had to put in another envelope and send back, in order to receive another letter inviting her to set up an appointment to come and be interviewed. A friend of mine visited Berlin while I was there - he was looking for a job and had an interview with a German company, who ended up having to hire engineers in the Netherlands, because the German government had banned the sale of some VR headsets in the country, which were needed for the job. Our way back out of the country was through Prague by train. The train was several hours late, but a Deutsche Bahn employee told us we should feel lucky: the day before, there was no train. Now, I've dealt with US government bureaucracy, I've dealt with Czech and Swiss bureaucracy, and my partner has had to deal with residency permits in the UK. None of these experiences compare. (Except, maybe, getting a Czech construction permit.) German bureaucracy is so, so much worse than people think. The Germans mostly have nothing to compare it to, and think it's normal: it is not. And it's costing the country real opportunities: companies that don't get started, people who don't end up moving there, repairs that don't get done because it's hard to organize some stupid paperwork. And it doesn't have to be this way.
• 7373737373 4y ago
  Recent discussion: How I would start my next startup in Germany without a GmbH (2020) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31601638 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31601638 The entire process is a disgrace
• atemerev 4y ago
  • csomar 4y ago
    It's not about order. And "people" (the active dominant business industry) get things done because they know the process, the people, and the right forms to fill. It's gate-keeping coupled with organized petty corruption.
  • sdfhbdf 4y ago
    > business school where you will learn how to deal with notaries and tax authorities It’s interesting you view business school as that. That seems to basic human interaction skills, interacting with people that are helping you set something up (notary - company) or fulfill your civic duties (tax authorities). In the case of the notary you’re their client, you’re not supposed to know everything, you pay them to figure out stuff for you and help you in the process.
• rad_gruchalski 4y ago
  Wow, this article is a mess. Yes, registering a UG or GmbH is more complicated than Ltd (I’ve done all three) but the process can be basically narrowed down to: 1. Notary. 2. Bank account. 3. Steuerberater takes over from here. Why does he even do Elster himself if he uses a Steuerberater? 4. No. You absolutely do not need an UG as a founder to start a GmbH. You can start a GmbH as a legal person. You do the UG intermediary stunt just for the case if you (the UG) sell the GmbH shares to avoid paying income taxes on that sale. Because every company in Germany is basically a separate legal entity (it’s equal to a person) with its own tax number and everything. My UG took days to be registered, GmbH took 5 months due to international founders. If he doesn’t know what a notary is, well, here’s a good British source he could find using Google: https://www.thenotariessociety.org.uk/pages/what-is-a-notary https://www.thenotariessociety.org.uk/pages/what-is-a-notary. Notaries absolutely exist in the UK and I used them myself in London. Regarding the language. The only thing you’re going to hear as a response to that entitlement: “this is Germany, we do this the German way”. I’m not German, just fyi… you know, when I arrived in the UK in 2006, I didn’t expect that everyone will explain to me things in Polish. I actually had to learn the language.
  • csomar 4y ago
    > Regarding the language. The only thing you’re going to hear as a response to that entitlement: “this is Germany, we do this the German way”. I’m not German, just fyi… you know, when I arrived in the UK in 2006, I didn’t expect that everyone will explain to me things in Polish. I actually had to learn the language. I think his point is, English is the lingua-franca of the internet and international business. If you are looking to accept international founders, investors and money, maybe it's a good idea to add EN i18n.
    • rad_gruchalski 4y ago
      He looked into opening a GmbH, not the other way around. He wants to do business in Germany. You can absolutely go through this process without speaking German but it will cost you money in lawyers. > I think his point is, English is the lingua-franca of the internet and international business. Maybe the Internet, yes. But international business? I don’t think so. Maybe from a perspective of native English-speaking person it appears to him like that. But it’s not the case in many non-English speaking countries.
• fxtentacle 4y ago
  It's actually not. But you need to speak the language... Duh. You make a notary appointment to sign a default company contract. You pay in the 25000€ for a GmbH (or less for an UG) onto a newly created bank account. You send the confirmation from the bank to the notary office and they'll inform all relevant government agencies. About a week later you get a letter that your new company is ready to use.
  • rad_gruchalski 4y ago
    And remember, there are only 3 invoices you have to pay: 1) the notary (it was €196 in my case 4 years ago), 2) Handelsregister (€150), 3) IHK (€40 for the first year of operation). Bundesanzeiger Verlag comes a litte bit later. Don’t forget to do the Transparenzregister. Everything else you can ignore.
• SeanLuke 4y ago
  My wife and I live in the United States but got married in Italy at her hometown city hall. She is Italian and I am American. She wanted to do this badly, but for an American and an Italian to get married in Italy is an extraordinarily complicated process. It involved having witnesses present themselves at the US Embassy (conveniently we're in DC) to vouchsafe that I am not already married, and to have witnesses to vouchsafe for my witnesses. It also involved a huge back-and-forth between the embassy and the local city hall in my wife's hometown who, for who knows why, hold some authority. I had to go through some weird procedure because I was having a civil and not catholic church wedding. I had to have wedding vows drawn up in both Italian and English, and have a person available to translate in real time to make sure that I understood my vows (because apparently not understanding vows you wrote puts you in legal jeopardy in Italy, I kid you not). The entire thing required numerous notorizations, forms, and literally dozens of people along the way apologizing for the suffocating Italian bureaucray which of course, they were part of. Along the entire way every single bureaucrat asked me the exact same question: "Why don't you just get married in the US?"
  • epolanski 4y ago
    > apparently not understanding vows you wrote puts you in legal jeopardy in Italy, I kid you not Those aren't just "vows", its a legal contract, you HAVE to understand what you're signing for your own good and it is the same reason the notary had to read 3 times the same thing in the article. > the local city hall in my wife's hometown who, for who knows why, hold some authority Because as I already said, marriage is a civil and legal act. It is not carried by the central nor state (as in us) government but the city one, and the responsibility falls on the mayor or its representative (which likely married you). Of course the city hall is going to need plenty of documents, especially in the case of a foreigner (and alien). I'm baffled by how much entitlement Americans have in Europe. Bashing on our beaurocracy while not even bothering to understand what you are doing nor why.
    • Gibbon1 4y ago
      In the US marriage is 100% handled by state governments. In California you just need to get a marriage license, sign it, and turn it back in. I think a difference between the US and European countries is in the US legal documents don't have the same weight of finality as they do in Europe.
• dark-star 4y ago
  Basically "entitled American complains that doing serious business in a country that has an official language other than English is not done in English" > I could have signed away one of my kidneys for all I know. It’s in German what dod you expect? French? Why should Germany do their legal business in English? Most countries do all their legal stuff in their official language. Try buying a cellphone in Japan, you think they have their forms in English? Or German? No. It's all Japanese.
  • camjw 4y ago
    The author is not American, afaik he is Scottish
    • usr1106 4y ago
      The author has become a German citizen. Does that make him more German than Scottish or British or whatever he used to be or still is? The problem is that legal proceedings are done in a natural language. You try to do something exact with tool that is fuzzy by nature. So specialists basically create their own language in order to get precise. Can an average Scotsman or American incorporate a company in their own country and fully understand all legal implications? That said Germany has literally centuries of traditions that some other countries don't have. For me as a German living abroad it's been a surprise what things can go unregulated, meaning that big corporations, lawyers or officials just (mis)use the gaps for their own benefit. (Which does not imply that German desire to regulate things well have prevented greedy criminals to commit crimes like VW and Wirecard undetected for years.)
• DannyBee 4y ago
  If you really believe business should only be conducted in the official language (ie not both official language and English), then it better be worth the cost. Nobody is going to go to trouble of learning your language to deal with your market unless it is worth it. Multiply this by lots of counties and languages and it means you are missing out unless you are large or important. If your country wants foreign investment, you don't attract people unless you meet them where they are (or, again, your market is really worth it). On top of that, basically all international business between two companies will be done in English. So in practice, it will be your countries' loss to establish these sorts of barriers. Now, if your country is happy with the level of investment it gets from foreign small businesses, then great, nothing to do. But you won't get to have it both ways.
  • PeterisP 4y ago
    Germany is near the top of the list of countries with the least need for foreign investment - it is a capital-rich economy capable of financing all its economy domestically and looking for investment opportunities in the surrounding countries (both EU and outside, e.g. as of very recently Russia), not searching to receive investments.
  • Ekaros 4y ago
    Is it really worth the time to try to attract small businesses? Or should you aim for medium that are ready to hire someone German to do this in Germany? It is not massive bar to hurdle. But it seems reasonable to not allow just about anything to setup legal entity.
• sdfhbdf 4y ago
  I think the author focused too much on the “it’s in German” argumetn. All other problems listed with the process do not shine that much when people in comments focus on that: a foreigner should not expect a country to conduct its legal proceedings in a language different to their native. On a different note I found the tone of the article a little appalling with author’s dismissive attitude like “What is a Notary? I’m not sure”, “ I have not checked, but I strongly doubt…”. One does not start a company every other day so this process requires attention and not checking or not researching certain things demonstrates little patience and “I know better” attitude that is harmful down the line. It would be interesting to see the author research why some things are the way they are, there is always a historic reason that might be valid or not in the current age, but it’s good to understand before we critique.
  • Major_Grooves 4y ago
    I'd rather say everyone else focussed too much on the "in German" part. That really was the least of the problem with the process. wrt to my "tone" - that is rather a stylistic thing - I am trying to write with a bit of humour - tongue in cheek. I do literally know what a notary is, yet at the same time the notary process is quite alien if you are from the UK (I am aware they exist there too but they are rare). Indeed the historical reason for some of these things is quite interesting. Someone else shared some detailed article about it with me a while ago. I would acknowledge that there are "benefits" to this laborious process - such as less shell companies or fraud.
  • sbacic 4y ago
    > a foreigner should not expect a country to conduct its legal proceedings in a language different to their native. If that is the case, perhaps countries should consider their native language as an actual disadvantage when it comes to attracting foreign investment? After all, if I need to learn, say, Slovenian, to open and run a business in Slovenia, that makes me less likely to do so. Which means that Slovenia might need to settle for lower tax rates or provide some other benefits in order to entice me to do business there.
    • jeroenhd 4y ago
• tgsovlerkhgsel 4y ago
  Shutting it down will also take something like 1-2 years (gotta give any creditors time to file claims, is the official reason, I think), in which you again have to file the tax paperwork, paying a tax advisor to do it for you if you don't also want to become an expert on tax law aside from whatever your actual expertise is that you wanted to run a company for. The Transparenzregister was new to me, but at least it only seems to consume an hour or so of your time and no additional money. Basically, you can't afford to start a company if you just want to try something out, because the bureaucracy costs will outstrip your actual operating costs in the first year (which, for many IT people, are a domain and a laptop) and be a significant burden. Unless you go into it with "here's my capital, and here is my plan to turn this into the next unicorn", you're more likely to just give up before you even seriously think about the idea.
  • Scarblac 4y ago
    You can't start a _limited liability_ company (a GmbH) to just try something out. Other company types are much easier.
• marstall 4y ago
  Curious what the process would be like to start a comparable company (an LLC maybe?) in the US? Certainly a bank account, notary, and town/city official would have to be involved, and probably a lawyer and accountant.
• nnoitra 4y ago
• Temporary_31337 4y ago
  I can’t think of many reasons why a startup should incorporate in Germany sine you can have the company registered in any other EU country and have access to the same common EU market.
• i5heu 4y ago
  I have registered a UG in Germany as a 18yo and it was no problem at all. The taxes although... you don't want to do them yourself.
• charcircuit 4y ago
  I feel like this could be made automated. Why isn't a forming a company harder that making a company account on YouTube, TikTok, etc. Does the government not care about the sign up flow?
  • deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
• KingOfCoders 4y ago
  "I have heard it is even the same for buying a house " I bought a house in Germany. It felt safe. By coincident there was a story about the UK how there is so few process to sell a house, that it's a common fraud to sell houses you do not own. I prefer the German way to the UK way.
  • itsthejb 4y ago
    And if you, for some reason, happen to have a few sacks of Euros just, you know, lying around, Deutschland will quite happily accept that house purchase in good old untraceable cash. Freshly laundered
    • KingOfCoders 4y ago
      Yes, Germany is very bad in fighting corruption and fighting organized crime, for various reasons.
• KingOfCoders 4y ago
  Founding a UG to own a GmbH is for tax avoidance.
• choeger 4y ago
  Founding a limited-liability company with a builtin tax-evasion scheme is more complicated than it needs to be? I. am. Shocked. Here's a suggestion: Pay your taxes or hire some consultant or lawyer to do the oh so complicated process for you. If you want things nice and simple you can simply buy a prefab GmbH: https://gruenderplattform.de/unternehmen-gruenden/vorratsgesellschaft https://gruenderplattform.de/unternehmen-gruenden/vorratsges... Oh, sorry, that's in German again.
  • Major_Grooves 4y ago
    what part is tax evasion?
    • choeger 4y ago
      Selling your startup and parking the profit in the umbrella company is.
• throwaway2037 4y ago
  "Germany is ranked 22 among 190 economies in the ease of doing business, according to the latest World Bank annual ratings." Ref: https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/ease-of-doing-business https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/ease-of-doing-business
• superphil0 4y ago
  Wow, i can't believe that it is easier in Austria than in Germany. However, still way easier in UK..
• sooyoo 4y ago
  Thanks for posting this. I now know one more person who I'll make sure to never work for. Such a chaotic, ill-informed and partially self-contradictory mess. Yes there is some bureaucracy involved. No, not all of this makes sense. (Especially to somebody with only partial language familiarity despite the repeated claims to the contrary, but you are making it obvious that there are quite some deficiencies in your knowledge. Fun fact: A foreigner in the UK also won't know all the English legalese.) One of the points of all of this is to reduce the risk of something like FTX happening. That's why those guys are in the Bahamas, not in Germany.
  • tasubotadas 4y ago
    I think the benefit is mutual
  • troppl 4y ago
    > One of the points of all of this is to reduce the risk of something like FTX happening. That's why those guys are in the Bahamas, not in Germany. You cannot possibly be serious. Wirecard happened only two years ago. So, while the thinking might goes that all this is for something like FTX, it's obviously not succeeding.
• personomas 4y ago
  Welcome to socialism. Everything has to be "fair", so we give the money to the Notar, IHK, Berufsgenossenschaft, etc etc
  • personomas 4y ago
    In socialism the politicians are only interested in giving the money to those who don't work!
• INTPenis 4y ago
  I know people who have left their european country for another just to start their business, because it was way too much bureaucracy. It's kinda sad because they want a more free market so they leave their welfare state for this reason. But I kinda understand it too. So as a proponent of socialism I'm kinda torn. I just think we could still allow these companies the freedom to operate as long as we had safeguards in place to ensure the freedom and dignity of citizens first and foremost, always before corporations.
• hoseja 4y ago
  You can take colonies from the englishman but you can't make englishman want to stop colonizing.
  • aastronaut 4y ago
    As much as I like some historical reference like the next person, I think this discussion here takes a wrong turn through comments like these, sarcastic or not. I think OP is free to criticize the process of registering a company, but should rather give suggestions to improve said process instead of ranting about the official language of a nation. People are different, aren't they? On one side I have a friend living in Austria for about a decade now and he still complains that quite some information isn't available in English. He doesn't even see the irony as an Italian, makes no attempt to learn the official language (German) and continuously makes fun of any explanation I'm trying to give on why a specific German term would be used in a certain context. On the other hand there are people like me, who moved to Norway for about a year and frequently felt like shit that I didn't make a proper attempt to learn its official language (started a course there next to my study, but didn't finish it). I was amazed that every Norwegian I encountered was able to speak English on a very high level. Me not learning the official language, but still trying to achieve some kind of future there, really made me feel foreign and my failed attempt to learn that nations official language remained a lasting feeling of lost time. I would never consider to complain that some documents aren't available in English.
• suction 4y ago
• jillesvangurp 4y ago
  I went through the process of registering an UG for the second time last year. So, this time I was better prepared for the process. First, I got a lot of value out of this web site: https://www.firma.de/en/company-formation/registering-a-limited-liability-company-in-germany-gmbh-or-ug-heres-how/ https://www.firma.de/en/company-formation/registering-a-limi... It explains the various steps that are needed and their inter dependencies. In short, you are expected to know and act on this stuff and not be caught by surprise by any of it. Failing to act means the process derails for a few weeks/months until you fix it. And fixing it is exclusively your problem. So, read up. Getting angry at the process is pointless. It is what it is. There are no short cuts. But the flip side is that it's a very predictable process. This is Germany after all and unquestioningly following convoluted processes to the letter is what they excel in. Yes, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever but if you play along and it ends up being fine. A few things to be aware of: - There's a chicken egg problem where you need a paper with stamp to open a bank account, a bank account to prove that your company has enough means to pay it's bills, and that proof to go to notary so they can register your company. Typical German solution: wave some cash at the notary and they'll wink at you and take your word for it and register your company. Likewise you can actually open the bank account before you get the paperwork done. - Then the real work starts of registering with the Gewerbeamt, the transparency register, and the tax office. They all need the company to be registered first of course. - German banks are pretty bad. Use one of the online more modern outfits. I've had a Commerzbank (I used them the first time, big mistake) employee explain to me once that the paper I needed was archived on microfiche in some basement. This was after weeks of trying to get them to produce said paper work which I needed for my taxes. Classic "the dog ate my homework" situation. We showed up in person to basically ask WTF?! and then they grudgingly admitted they could actually send somebody down to the basement to sort it out. So, this time, I used an online company called Penta (since merged with another player) and the whole process was super smooth. Bank account ready for action after a simple online verification process. By far the fastest thing in the whole process. I actually had this ready before I even went to the notary. I still had to wave cash at them because that's the process. And then I sent them confirmation that I put that cash in the bank account. Which unblocked the registration. - Speaking of money, this whole process has a lot of hidden cost. Make sure you capitalize your UG to pay for: IHK (chamber of commerce), the notary, the accountant, your company bank account and a few other things. A personal loan is the way to do it. Put 3K aside for this. - The process is not quick. Even doing everything in the right order, it took me nearly to the deadline my bank set for getting the right paper work to them (in digital form). The tax number and the ihk paper with the stamped company registration. Both took many weeks for some reason. End to end, it took me nearly 4 months. Most of that is just waiting for bureaucrats to do whatever it is they do and push the right buttons. - I tracked all the steps in an issue tracker. It starts out simple but every step generates more steps. Basically all I did was track the known but unsolved steps I knew I had to take. Fill in this form, get that paper with a stamp, contact this or that agency. About 20 steps. As for language. It's a mix of German and English. Get some people to help you with the German stuff. No way around that.
• secretsatan 4y ago
  The UK is hardly a good example, the simple registration process made the UK a world leader in money laundering.
  • kmlx 4y ago
    this is false btw. the UK is not a money laundering world leader. not even close. on the other hand the UK is the best example of how company creation should happen. everyone should follow them. all digital, 5 mins to setup. money laundering is a separate issue to company formation.
    • secretsatan 4y ago
      https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252513230/UK-second-in-money-laundering-hall-of-shame https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252513230/UK-second-in-m... https://www.webshield.com/post/uk-companies-the-money-launderers-getaway-vehicle-of-choice https://www.webshield.com/post/uk-companies-the-money-launde...
      • Accacin 4y ago
        I'm British, and in general I do agree with you that UK is a hub for money laundering. However, those sources are awful.
      • kmlx 4y ago
        again, this is false, and it also cherry picking some crazy articles. the worst money laundering countries are the likes of Uganda, Mozambique and friends. the UK is not even in the top half. but biases need to be confirmed i guess.
• germandiago 4y ago
  Bureaucracy and wish of control is sinking european economies in my opinion. In Spain it is also a hell to do business, worse than Germany I think. Many of the things that happen in Europe are the consequence of slow decisions, lack of capacity, yet the taxes are high. This is destroying the economy in a great measure, together with high tax rates. In Spain for example, court is suuuuper slow, medical care is slower than before, we have a really relevant problem with property occupation, yet the law does not let you even put them out your own home and you have to pay the bills! Even a private company became really famous for doing this, that should be done by the administration. To open a company, get ready... And things are just getting worse, not better. I hate bureaucrats, politicians and taxes with all my soul. I think they create a lot of problems.
  • martin_a 4y ago
    Well, move somewhere where you don't have to pay taxes, but please don't complain about the downsides then.
    • germandiago 4y ago
      Who said I would? I wouldn't. OTOH, in a midly civilized place, I do not see those disadvantages anywhere. You just need people that have a mindset of mutual respect and following their word. Not much more.
• inspirerhetoric 4y ago
  I went through the Elster "Frageboden zur Steuerlichen Erfassung" for a GmbH yesterday and can confirm that it's a nightmare. I can find no way to register a company successfully that will not generate Umsatzsteuer (VAT Taxes) due to developing software for non-EU/US customers. It seems that there is a difference between Steuerbare (revenues that can be VAT-taxed) and Steuerfreie (revenues that could be taxed, but per law aren't) Umsätze, as well as Steuerermässigte (reduced tax rate) revenues, but as far as I can tell the form only covers the latter two cases and not the first one. If you try to register a company with revenues but no VAT tax expected you get this wonderfully German sentence: "Der auf einen Jahresgesamtumsatz hochgerechnete voraussichtliche Umsatz im Gründungsjahr übersteigt die Grenze des § 19 Absatz 1 UStG und der Fragebogen zur steuerlichen Erfassung enthält keine Angaben zu gegebenenfalls darin enthaltenen steuerfreien Umsätzen.. Die Kleinunternehmerregelung kann daher weder in Anspruch genommen werden noch kann darauf ein Verzicht erklärt werden.". Translation: Your expected revenue is higher than the amount for the small-enterpreneuer taxation scheme but you did not list tax-freed revenues, for this reason you can neither avail yourself nor disavail yourself of the tax scheme for small entrepreneuers". LOL. I love my country but it urgently needs to liberalize its labor and capital markets - with corporate tax rates amongst the highest in the world and bureaucracy like this, it is unnecessarily slowing economic growth and opportunities for ordinary citizens.
  • ogarten 4y ago
    Just did the same basically half an hour ago and it's a nightmare. It's just for a holding and a holding for a startup and it doesn't even generate any revenue until the startup shares are sold in an exit event. Basically forces you to get a tax professional which is expensive not startup/founder friendly at all.
    • nilslindemann 4y ago
      Of course, States don't want their citizens to pay the least possible amount of taxes, so they make it a nightmare to do so. This way, the state legally steals money from its citizens. Why do you think they called it "Elster"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_magpie#cite_ref-Opie1959_52-0:~:text=In%20Bulgarian%2C%20Czech%2C%20German%2C%20Hungarian%2C%20Polish%2C,magpie%20is%20seen%20as%20a%20thief https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_magpie#cite_ref-Opie1.... As we say: "Die diebische Elster".
• cranium 4y ago
  In Switzerland you also need to have a notary to register the company. However, some companies saw the opportunity to streamline the process and offer a Notary-as-a-Service so you create the company from home (mostly) and don't need to interact with the notary. You have to sign a Power of Attorney so the company takes care of most of the paperwork. The process is quite easy if your company structure is simple (eg. initial balance of 20kCHF is only cash, shares split equally between founders, one type of shares,...).
• charlesdm 4y ago
  Perhaps it's more streamlined in the UK, but generally in Europe you will have to go to a notary. The process is often 1) notary (incorporation deed creates the entity), 2) followed by setting up a bank account (get the initial capital in) and 3) do some additional registrations for your new entity, such as corporate and VAT number. While it can take a while depending on the country, it in all honesty isn't as bad as portrayed. But since he was setting up a holding entity to hold the shares before he could incorporate his actual operating company, he had to go through it twice.
• fefe23 4y ago
  Do put this into perspective a bit: The 25000€ are the capital up to which you limit your liability. Yes you have to have it because you are liable up to it. GmbH is not just a promise that you won't be liable for more. It is also a promise that you have the money to cover your liabilities. If you don't, you have to tell the authorities immediately and your company is insolvent. No you don't need a UG for each founder. Yes, this shit is complicated, but it's that way for a reason. In Germany having a GmbH is like a badge of honor and reliability. It means you are an upstanding businessman. People usually trust a GmbH more than a non-limited-liability company (GBR) even though with a GBR the founder is liable with his personal wealth without limit. Because for a GmbH you know they at least put down the 25k. The IHK stuff is very unpopular in Germany, too. Nobody likes the IHK. It's like a guild thing from the middle ages. It's here for historical reasons. It's legacy shit we haven't gotten rid of yet. The forms and the registers are there for a reason, too, even the Bundesanzeiger stuff. That means if you deal with a GmbH, you know the founder needed to pull their pants down in front of a public register. If you get scammed, you can find out who the proprietors are, the authorities know who they are, and they can actually be held liable. The British tradition is very different from the German one. In Britain you could historically change your name just by using a different name. Criminals and scam artists made use of this. The German tradition is that your name is known to the state, in fact you get an ID card with your name and photo on it. If people don't trust you, they might ask to see it. Your name is serious business. It carries weight. If someone knows your name, the law can get to you. There are no credit cards accidentally issued to dogs in Germany. So while to you this may look like useless bureaucracy, it is really a cascaded "Are you really sure you want to do this? You will be liable for your actions. There are rules here. They will apply to you whether you know them or not." All that said: You can actually buy a "GmbH-Mantel". Someone else did all the leg work, and you just buy the empty shell of a company which will be renamed and assigned to your name then. This can be done within a few days AFAIK.
  • wink 4y ago
    This is the most complete, correct and helpful answer I've seen so far - agreed on all points. I just want to add that the Bundesanzeiger stuff kinda correlates to the Impressumspflicht for websites, of which I cam not a fan at all for personal sites, but it's good to know that a company (which takes your money) has to have an official address and you can cross-reference if it's a real company.
• haywirez 4y ago
  Registering already seems daunting but it's nothing compared to what comes after - payroll, health insurers, taxes, dealing with import duties, various registrations, fax, constant cold sweat from missing important snail mail. The admin ordeal intensifies with unexpected twists and turns. Ask me in a few years if it was worth it.
• rsp1984 4y ago
  Sounds challenging but in fact this is only playing on intermediate difficulty! The real fun begins when you want a GmbH as a subsidiary of a foreign parent company (HQ is in the US for example). Now no bank will accept you as a business customer due to money laundering / compliance reasons -- that is unless you're already incorporated as GmbH. But guess what, to get the GmbH formed you need to show proof of deposit of the EUR 25k in share capital - in a bank account! There's a trick to break this chicken-and-egg and it involves a notary (of course!), putting 25k in cash in an envelope, writing down some numbers into a notebook and then storing that envelope in a safe place until you can deposit it in your bank acct. Receive letter from the Bundesanzeiger Verlag (this translates to “people that send letters that look like a scam, but are in fact not a scam”). Live long enough in Germany and you realise that it is, in fact, a scam. Just a legally sanctioned one. Same as IHK, Rundfunkgebuehr and overpriced mandatory work insurance for office workers.
• sai_c 4y ago
  As someone who started his own company fifteen years ago I can relate. Being german, the process itself was not that much of a hassle. But the financial aspect of having to pay for so many things i do not need or want (IHK membership, Genossenschaft membership) was mind boggling. There is a joke they tell you in Germany when you think about creating a company: How do you make a million Euros in Germany? Take two and create a company.
• callamdelaney 4y ago
  25,000euros to just register a company? That's hilariously stupid.
  • Ekaros 4y ago
    As operating capital. Doesn't seem too unreasonable for most industries. Maybe it is high for consulting and software. But with anything you need to buy inventory, machinery, rent space and so on. It makes perfect sense to demand.
  • zcombynator 4y ago
    That's the minimum deposit. You keep the money 100%, and can then start investing it. It serves as basic legitimacy.
  • SuperSandro2000 4y ago
    It's only for a GmbH and the minimum liability. You can also found a UG but then your private money is on risk.
• SuperSandro2000 4y ago
  and despite all this crap, Germany somehow is still relevant in the world. Baffling.
• AHASIC 4y ago
  I can confirm that it takes around 6 months to open a GmbH, having done it myself here in Germany. It is a complex process even though I had an accountant the whole time as well as a notary.
• wink 4y ago
  Yeah maybe I'm either too old school or doing it wrong, but most of the people I know have not made a personal holding company. And not knowing that a GmbH needs a certain amount of capital is just... I dunno, did the author want to start a company and not even read the English Wikipedia article? But I have to admit all those GmbHs were founded before UG was a thing, so maybe my examples are bad. The rest sounds accurate and I'm not happy, so I'm not defending anything here. But maybe read up for an hour before you go complaining.
• iamsaitam 4y ago
  Germans are completely unreasonable when it comes to their language. There's no point in arguing with them. Next time, just open your company in Portugal (https://eportugal.gov.pt/en/servicos/criar-uma-empresa-online https://eportugal.gov.pt/en/servicos/criar-uma-empresa-onlin...), we don't mind that you don't speak our language (which has far more speakers worldwide than German).
• 19h 4y ago
  The difference to other countries is that the notary essentially can revoke their notarization of your company and thereby voiding it (which I am not aware has ever happened), if they at any point decide you lied to them. Germany has companies going back to the 15th century so a lot of the company founding processes have been grandfathered in over hundreds of years. I’m actually somewhat happy about the notaries because they essentially commit to keeping a copy of your contract in eternity (until they dissolve), so you can always be assured that you can get a copy of your founding contract at any time.
• ho_schi 4y ago
  https://tilores.io/company https://tilores.io/company ... were working together in the technology team of a German consumer credit bureau. I wonder about this paragraph. I assume someone with experience around consumer credits should be familar with bureaucracy. I assume also that everywhere in the world you will contract a company lawyer in advance as guidance? The bureaucracy in Germany is overwhelming. The tax system is a daunting. And bureaucracy provides a common set of rules, protects people, environment and keeps frauds and bribes low. For example the strict notary system protects normal people.
• nilslindemann 4y ago
  Ob wir Deutschen wohl Weltmeister im Einfach-sein werden könnten?
• mattymf 4y ago
  Interesting article. This seems like a normal experience for any regulated industry selling abroad. Maybe this is the writer's first professional working experience ever? Maybe I'm overly critical.
• eisbaw 4y ago
  Turns out bureaucracy is just real-life micro-services.