20 ms·

Why are male testosterone levels falling?

• gcr 4y ago
  Testosterone is a scheduled drug in the US. I wish it (and other forms of hormone therapy) were more easily and widely available for folks who need them. Us trans people understand deeply what not having enough of the “right” hormones does to you.
  • fooper 4y ago
    Drugs that disrupt one's endogenous hormonal systems are restricted for good reason. That it's become normalised for people to take them for a variety of dubious cultural reasons, rather than genuine medical reasons, isn't a good case for loosening these restrictions.
    • docandrew 4y ago
      Hormones can definitely come with a host of side effects and must be treated with respect, but it seems like our medical community has no problem handing out hormones for some reasons (birth control, acne), but male TRT is highly regulated. I blame the major league baseball steroid scandal and an undue legislative focus on fairness in sports.
      • deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    • Elinvynia 4y ago
      What "dubious cultural reasons" are normalized? I'm curious.
      • Der_Einzige 4y ago
        OP is talking about dude-bros taking steroids so they can pump and dump women.
    • gcr 4y ago
      In my book, "I feel like shit because my body produces the wrong hormones" is a genuine medical reason.
• lob_it 4y ago
  • commandlinefan 4y ago
    Oh, come on, men have been drinking beer for millennia. This is new.
  • _cenw 4y ago
    Phytoestrogens actually make it harder to grow breasts because they compete for receptor space and then don't do a whole lot. Similar effect with Estrone (E1) and Estrogen (E2). Many trans people switch from oral HRT to other methods that bypass first pass metabolism (which converts E2 into E1) because their E1 is too high and the desired breast growth doesn't materialize.
    • lob_it 4y ago
      I chose a diuretic as a beverage of choice and skipped the "phytoestrogen or flight" response :p I'm sure that made someone laugh :)
• tartoran 4y ago
  Sabine Hossenfelder has an interesting take on this [0] [0] - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PY_4S_dfUv4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PY_4S_dfUv4
  • boredumb 4y ago
    She's the author of the OP.
• puskavi 4y ago
  Free BPA coctail in every canned drink
  • lakomen 4y ago
    Also aluminium cans
    • JKCalhoun 4y ago
      Interesting. Regarding packaging, growing up condiments were in glass. Good luck finding mayonnaise or ketchup in glass jars now. (I am able to find glass for my peanut butter and jelly fix — the peanut butter is some kind of natural stuff that you have to hand-mix though.) While cereal is still in boxes, the lining/bag for the cereal was waxes paper (or waxed foil/paper if it was Super Sugar Crisp, emphasis mine). I would love to see a branding campaign by some food conglomerate that introduced a line of glass (or wax paper) packaging for their products. I would absolutely pay a little more for that (although I wish it were the default again of course).
      • Freak_NL 4y ago
        > Good luck finding mayonnaise or ketchup in glass jars now. I've never seen ketchup in glass, but mayonnaise is sold in glass in all supermarkets in the Netherlands, as well as small aluminium tubes and plastic squeeze bottles.
        • formerly_proven 4y ago
          Heinz ketchup is available in glass bottles and various other, smaller, companies offer it as well. Glass is pretty popular for "bio-ish products", at least in Germany (even though CO2eq-wise it'll usually be quite a lot worse than plastic packaging).
          • Freak_NL 4y ago
            Oh right, the classic Heinz bottles are glass of course.
• rzzzt 4y ago
  (Brings forth their best George Carlin impersonation) Plastic! ...I mean, my understanding was that the elephant in the room is BPA and microplastics, but maybe all the other factors are not given enough attention.
  • 2-718-281-828 4y ago
    in most of asia you have to consume all your water from plastic bottles or canisters. do asians have lower testosterone on average?
  • rjzzleep 4y ago
    I've long been wondering about plastic as well. Plastic wrapped food, plastic packaged food, drinks etc. A lot of these things are actually filled and sealed while warm and then heated in plastic, which means it leaks into the food. A sibling comment commented on all the hormones in dairy and other foods. I remember that there were even issues with the contraceptive pill in wastewater effects on aquatic life. One thing I'd like to know is if the effect on east Asian societies is worse given how much more plastic they use than say European ones. Somewhat unrelated but interesting is the focus on BPA. It is actually not proven that the other plastics are good, it just means we have data on BPA.
  • TaupeRanger 4y ago
    That's not really established by strong evidence. Most of it is cross sectional data without any clinically relevant endpoints. In other words, we have no idea if or how it affects any part of male fertility or testosterone production that humans actually care about. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7304337/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7304337/ Anecdotally, if someone like John Carmack can drink 9 Diet Cokes per day without noticeable ill-effects over several decades, it's going to take strong evidence that he (and others like him) are major outliers in their resistance to BPA "damage" to convince people that a small amount of BPA in their foods and drinks is harmful enough to change their lifestyle and habits to avoid it.
    • forgotmypw17 4y ago
• jmclnx 4y ago
  > Strength levels seem to be decreasing in general. This is one thing I have noticed, men in my parents's generation in their 50s were much stronger than my peers (and me). And I have been noticing I am a bit stronger than men in there 20s (on average). Of course I tossed out people who work out. I have been seeing articles like this for a while, I personally believe this has to do with the environment and how the food we eat is grown.
  • prox 4y ago
    Don’t you think it has more to do with a sedentary lifestyle vs a hands on lifestyle (lots more physical work 50 years ago, both out of the house and inside)
    • alexfromapex 4y ago
      Not only that but the soil used to have more minerals and electrolytes naturally which help with strength https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-and-nutrition-loss/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-an...
      • oifjsidjf 4y ago
        Why is this downvoted? Even even you eat modern organic food it problem has much less minerals and vitamins than it did 100 years ago.
  • JKCalhoun 4y ago
    I would simply assume it has more to do with physical activity. If my dad isn't wrenching on a project VW in the garage he's bringing feed out to the horses, installing a new garage door on the shop or something of that nature. I'm called upon to unscrew the difficult lids off jars, but other than that I expect I am underutilizing my muscles.
    • mindslight 4y ago
      This is most certainly the primary factor. Muscles don't get built for no reason. I myself don't really exercise regularly, but I'll go in and out of periods doing physical projects like carpentry, landscaping, etc). When I start a project I'm definitely lacking strength. As I continue doing physical labor I get stronger, which leads to qualitative changes in my ability to do specific tasks.
• chaosbolt 4y ago
  Stress and social status, society used to revolve around social status, if you were married and had a house and a decent job people respected you, your family was grateful, and apparently all these things boost your testosterone (heard it somewhere but not sure) today if you have these things some people will actually look down on you (according to the internet not sure again), and with the constant Ferris wheel of the news people can't seem to catch a break. But wtf do I know, not a biologist, not a doctor, etc. just my 2 cents.
  • JKCalhoun 4y ago
    > today if you have these things [married, house, decent job] some people will actually look down on you I have never encountered this phenomena.
    • rco8786 4y ago
      Ditto. Coupled with the source of “I read it somewhere on the internet, not sure” I think we can safely disregard that.
    • marginalia_nu 4y ago
      https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Breeder https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Breeder
      • JKCalhoun 4y ago
        Haven't contrarians always existed though? Also: decent job? House?
    • recyclelater 4y ago
      I encounter this in the tech field. Coworkers look down on married with children and will actually voice this out loud at work. I’ve had coworkers say that I am part of the problem, that we need to stop reproducing in order to reduce climate change. About 15% of my coworkers have specifically stated they are not having kids due to climate change or that bringing new kids into a falling apart world is cruel. Anecdotal I know, but this seems to be a pretty common viewpoint in left coast tech circles. You can read comments on here along the same lines. Sure some social circles will have less or more than my rough 15% observation. Would be interesting to see the actual numbers.
• myshpa 4y ago
  Other factor beyond plastics & BPA may be higher consumption of meat, dairy and eggs, which are full of estrogens. https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/09/13/estrogen-animal-products/ https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/09/13/estrogen-animal-produc...
  • BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    Bar chicken most meat consumption has gone down since the 70s, not up. Despite that, levels are still falling.
    • myshpa 4y ago
      Doesn't seem like it: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-meat-consumption-per-person https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-meat-consumption-pe... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/beef-and-buffalo-meat-production-tonnes https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/beef-and-buffalo-meat-pro... https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/pig-livestock-count-heads https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/pig-livestock-count-heads https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/egg-production-thousand-tonnes https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/egg-production-thousand-t... In most countries the numbers are growing.
• tohnjitor 4y ago
  I am unable to recall where i read this years ago, but testosterone is not just decreasing in males, it is also decreasing in mammals across the board in North America.
  • gonzo41 4y ago
    Ugh, it's probably climate change, or some PFAS chemical is wrecking everything.
    • Gigachad 4y ago
      Plastics in general leaching in to everything.
  • lr4444lr 4y ago
    Domesticated, wild, or both?
  • valdiorn 4y ago
    Specifically, domestic dogs are significantly affected, indicating they might be affected by the same condition as their owners.
    • throwaway89201 4y ago
      You seem to be referring to "interspecies hormonal interactions between man and the domestic dog" [1] which is about short-term hormonal changes during "a dog agility competition" – not the long term hormonal changes which the opening post is about. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0018506X0600122X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00185...
  • foldr 4y ago
    >it is also decreasing in mammals across the board in North America. North America is a big place and there are a hell of a lot of different mammals in it. Are there really enough people out there taking regular and reliable measurements of testosterone levels in a wide variety of species over a wide geographic area such that we have a representative sample?
• dial9-1 4y ago
  question should be "why would it not". if we all keep our modern lifestyles soon our test levels will match women's
• stevespang 4y ago
• jossclimb 4y ago
  Is it really a given that high testosterone leads to aggression? It can lead to dominance, but not necessarily violence. The whole 'roid rage' thing has been shown to be the result of elevated estrogen levels (excess testosterone is converted to estrogen, which is why steroid users take an aromatase inhibitor).
  • rco8786 4y ago
    Isn’t that one in the same? High test -> high est -> high anger
    • jossclimb 4y ago
      It's not high test though, its excess test from intramuscular injections into the body. Without an external source of testosterone, the endocrine system will keep the two balanced (unless someone has some sort of illness or damage to the testi).
      • gocartStatue 4y ago
        Balanced but defined by your genes. My natural balance may be higher in estrogen and DHT for example, than someone else’s. My receptors can be more or less sensitive to some hormones. That explains why some people can feel great and some terrible with same lab results.
  • jackmott 4y ago
    You are making strong assertions that are not strongly supported by evidence. Strong emotional reactions can happen for all kinds of hormonal disruptions including both added testosterone and all of the indirect consequences of using it (such as excess estrogen or other imbalances of that may result) Absolutely some people can do massive amounts of steroids and have no aggressive tendencies, but other people immediately have problems. Its rather notable in some circles, like masters sports where lots of men are on TRT and who knows what subtle psychological effects are at play, decisions being swayed by your new hormone makeup. Would make for fascinating research delving deeper
  • 4y ago
• formerly_proven 4y ago
  Consider declining T levels an adaptation to a society moving past needing ooga-booga aggressive males regardless of cause. Does not seem like a bad thing per se.
  • BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    High T has not been proven to be higher aggression. Conversely, frustrated men are more likely to be aggressive, and frustrated men tend to have lower levels.
    • enragedcacti 4y ago
      > High T has not been proven to be higher aggression Has it not? it seems like there's pretty clear consensus that they are positively correlated. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23843821/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23843821/
      • BlargMcLarg 4y ago
        Correlated. Just like squares are correlated to rectangles. Proof that T causes high aggression in isolation, in humans, thus far, has not been decisive. There is no consensus on this. Looking at the absence of the inverse (low T decreases aggression) would tip a few things.
  • comfypotato 4y ago
    Low t is associated with lower health. Science doesn’t really know if it’s cause or effect though.
    • icare_1er 4y ago
  • oifjsidjf 4y ago
    Evolution doesn't happen in 100 years.
• 6stringmerc 4y ago
  [flagged]
• Eupraxias 4y ago
  The relationship between body and mind has shifted dramatically since ~2000. Does anyone know of solid research that analyzes a connection between that very big change, and anomalous physical changes like this?
  • themitigating 4y ago
    What relationship between body and mind are you referring to? What change? And what happened in 2000?
    • Eupraxias 4y ago
      Thank you for asking - I understand this is wishy-washy. Here's my reasoning: 1. 'The mind' and 'the body' have a 'relationship'. 2. 'The mind' is affected by the information age. [e.g.: 1] 3. Therefore if #2, then the 'relationship' has 'changed'. Doesn't this give us a place to stand for what could be an interesting discussion, even if the discussion is a debate about #2? [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/is-google-making-us-stupid/306868/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/is-goog... I'm entering "~2000" as a value here. I was going to use 1990. My argument doesn't need further precision, and I assume it either exists, or researchers are actively debating.
      • themitigating 4y ago
        You said "The relationship between body and mind has shifted dramatically since ~2000." 1. I still don't get how the body is changed, yes the mind is related to the body but maybe not in this situation? 2. I genuinely didn't know what you were talking about, which is, I assume, the culture changes due to mass information being easily available. The normal way to phrase that would be to reference the cause of the change not just the year. It's like saying "the french people changed after 1332". Now if you said 1776 or 492 those are widely known events. Finally the mind and body stuff in the beginning threw me off
• Garlef 4y ago
  > Today we’ll talk about a real crisis. The decrease of testosterone levels. Why is it a crisis? What's the problem? Things change. But why is it a bad change? (Assuming it's possible to even say what a "normal" testosterone level is).
  • ekianjo 4y ago
    testosterone levels affect reproduction, if I remember correctly
    • Garlef 4y ago
      So? It's not like there's to few people. Population growth can't be exponential forever.
      • mcculley 4y ago
        Population growth is at the lowest level in decades.
        • The_Colonel 4y ago
          Good. It still needs to get lower, to 0, or even better to a slow decline.
          • anshumankmr 4y ago
            To have a global negative population growth rate could only happen in the case of a severe epidemic, something like the Spanish Flu did a 100 years ago (~100s of million died then). This would not really be good for anyone.
            • The_Colonel 4y ago
              > To have a global negative population growth rate could only happen in the case of a severe epidemic Why? Europe (as an example) has a net population decrease, why can't this happen on a global scale without an epidemic?
• zagrebian 4y ago
  Probably video games (joke)
  • friedman23 4y ago
    It actually might be video games, modern entertainment, and modern work in general. Not because of the content but because men are sedentary.
• alexfromapex 4y ago
  Because of synthetic estrogens in so many consumer products and likely the water supply https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7067547/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7067547/ https://www.endocrineweb.com/lifestyle-diet/everyday-chemical-that-could-harm-your-hormone-health https://www.endocrineweb.com/lifestyle-diet/everyday-chemica...
  • pibechorro 4y ago
    Phalates!! in plastics!!. Stop drinking bottle, avoid any food wrapped in plastic. Its almost impossible to do it fully, but if you seek whole foods and cook from scratch one can get close.
  • Der_Einzige 4y ago
    This is the correct answer. Professional societies of endocrinology all have been screaming about this for years. It took too long for this to be listed here on HN. I would wager that the overwhelming majority of the causes of low test aren't even cultural (though this is an interesting and unique causal claim) - they're environmental due to endocrine disruptors being fucking EVERYTHING. I joke that everytime I microwave my ice cream to make it softer that I increase my future child's chances of being a femboy. It's only a little bit joking...
  • incomingpain 4y ago
    Its funny how the correct answer is nowhere near the top. https://www.webmd.com/women/news/20101209/birth-control-pills-not-a-major-source-of-estrogen-in-water-supply https://www.webmd.com/women/news/20101209/birth-control-pill... Our allegedly 'clean' drinking water needs to be extra filtered to get rid of a huge amount of estrogen in the water.
• ispo 4y ago
  The only expected role of the male in today's society is just to be present. To be there. What does this mean, no one knows. For this certainly there is no need of much Testosterone. I somehow feel uncomfortable next to macho people if full display, it might be that it has become a non-adaptive trait?
  • themitigating 4y ago
    Are people who have high testosterone dying before they are able to breed?
    • ispo 4y ago
      Are they being less successful in breeding? All the macho people I see out there are unable to stay married for long.
• jasfi 4y ago
  Stress lowers T levels as well.
• xnx 4y ago
  Excess adipose tissue
  • bhouston 4y ago
    This is definitely part of the issue, but probably not all of it. Excess adipose tissue absorbs fat soluble hormones of all types. Definitely not healthy.
• Tade0 4y ago
  > Other studies have shown that men’s testosterone levels drop when holding an infant, or even a baby doll, and that the level goes up again after divorce. I see this as a significant component. Both of my grandfathers had little to no relationship with their children. Some of it due to the fact that they spent more than half of their waking hours outside - usually working. My father and generally men of his generation participated somewhat in child rearing, but not to a large extent. Meanwhile I'm here changing diapers, bathing our child, playing with them etc. and this is also, gradually, becoming the norm.
  • myspy 4y ago
    Same, also doing more household chores than my wife because she‘s in a family business.
• crazygringo 4y ago
  As someone who's studied this quite a bit, I believe the answer is actually rather counterintuitive, and it is: changing culture. While most people assume the direction of causality goes from testosterone to personality (higher testosterone leads to higher aggression), plenty of evidence shows it also goes in the opposite direction -- adopting aggressive/dominant attitudes, strength training and boxing, etc. leads to higher testosterone. For my grandfather's generation, getting into fights (as adult men) was a thing that happened not infrequently. Having your manhood questioned was something you remained vigilant against. And yes, your handshake was firm because it showed dominance, the same way throwing around insults was a lot of the conversation. And it obviously went along with all of the sexism, homophobia, racism, etc. But culture today is different. You work in teams, you get along, you're open to diverse points of view. You're rewarded for collaboration, not dominance. With most people you shake hands with, a firm handshake is going to freak them out, not assert confidence -- "what the hell is his deal?" Throwing around insults as the basis of conversation isn't how conversation works anymore. So I'm actually pretty convinced it's changing culture that's leading to lower testosterone. And I see no problem with this either -- there seems to be a widely shared belief that this is a problem because it will somehow lead to more difficulty conceiving, lower reproductive success, etc. But there's zero evidence that men as a whole are having problems conceiving. And even if it did become a problem (which there are no signs of), it's obviously something evolution would fix real quick.
  • Spivak 4y ago
    Not even evolution, men would just be prescribed testosterone gel/patches as a fertility treatment.
    • docandrew 4y ago
      Generally speaking, exogenous testosterone causes a loss of fertility, perhaps counter-intuitively. Men on HRT typically have to pause treatment when they are trying to conceive.
    • rblatz 4y ago
      That’s counterproductive, testosterone production is in the testes. Externally supplementing testosterone will actually signal the testes to stop/lower production of testosterone which also lowers production and quality of sperm.
• hprotagonist 4y ago
  a point for the local environment and activity side, though n=1… after two years of covid, sedentary life, and existential stress, my t levels were hovering around 290-310, which is borderline “you need an injection or a patch or something” territory. I got my ass off the couch and started lifting to max, and doubled those numbers in 4 months. my max weight also increased, but that’s beside the point here, since it’s not the absolute value of mass that matters. Picking up things that are almost but not quite too heavy for your body is a powerful signal to lots of systems in your body, and hormonal regulation is absolutely one of them. It’s also good for bone density and a bunch of other things, so, win win.
• hu3 4y ago
  Last week I got told by an endocrinologist that the current suggested average testosterone levels are too low and that he recommended almost doubling the average to his healthy patients. Mine is currently hovering around 350. I'll gradually increase it to 600 and see how it feels and how my body reacts.
  • lr4444lr 4y ago
    What treatments for this does he recommend short of direct exogenous hormone therapy (androgen shots/pills)?
    • datavirtue 4y ago
      Probably blasting your balls with UV light?
      • docandrew 4y ago
        I think the clinical evidence for this is… limited, and no doctor is going to recommend a tanning bed or exposure to more sunlight. They should do a hormone panel to see why the T is low - could be an underlying thyroid issue or overproduction of something like aromatase which is converting too much T into estrogen or SHBG which prevents T from being utilized. Treatments like HCG mono therapy to increase upstream hormone production might be used, but usually the easiest, most effective and simplest thing is exogenous injectable testosterone cypionate or test entheanate, injected once or twice weekly.
        • datavirtue 4y ago
          I know it's not allowed here, but I was joking.
  • casperc 4y ago
    How does it work to increase testoterone? Just medication?
    • 4y ago
• BirAdam 4y ago
  I would wager that there are a multitude of factors involved in this. First, humans are materially wealthier than ever before, and as such “the plague of paradise” becomes an issue. Without struggle, humans go soft. Look at the Mongolian conquerors as the most striking example of this. For all of us today, we don’t struggle in a physical manner to the same extent those before us did. Second, all incentives in our daily lives push us toward peaceful, sedentary, and “soft” behavior. This reinforces the first. Third, obesity is a problem. As noted in the OP, as obesity increases testosterone levels decrease. Given how much of the population is overweight, I’m not surprised by the lowering of testosterone. Fourth, exercise. Many here have noted that earlier generations were far more active. Every doctor with whom I’ve ever spoken has stated that diet and exercise are required for health, and in my experience every part of my life improved by losing 50 lbs and getting moving every day. Finally… levothyroxine is the second most commonly prescribed medicine in the USA. The thyroid is highly sensitive to radioactivity, heavy metals, PCAs, PBA, PFOAs, pesticides, and herbicides. These can all damage the thyroid or prevent the function of the thyroid and/or thyroid hormones. Thyroid mal/dysfunction has a vast array of effects on the body and can lead to a decrease in the function of many other parts of the body. While I don’t know if it will affect testosterone production, it wouldn’t surprise me at all. These pollutants can also cause autoimmune disorders which can damage the body (including the thyroid). If we already know that hormone production can be impaired by pollution, I don’t find it far fetched to think that this would include testosterone.
  • thedorkknight 4y ago
    This is more or less just what the article says, no? I suppose she doesn't mention levothyroxine though
• bhouston 4y ago
  > “Personally I see the decrease of testosterone levels more as a reaction to our changing environment than reason for concern. The world changes and we change with it.“ I do not find this analysis and conclusion convincing. Basically don’t worry about it is the conclusion. We have rising infertility, both female and male (which people blame on hormone disrupters: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/reproductive-problems-in-both-men-and-women-are-rising-at-an-alarming-rate/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/reproductive-prob... ) and also in developed nations soon to be significant falling populations (already started in China, Japan and South Korea) and just less sex overall ( https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-have-been-having-less-sex-whether-theyre-teenagers-or-40-somethings/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/people-have-been-... ). This likely plays into this in some way. These trends do not lead to a sustainable future - it is like global warming, slow but indicative of bad things coming down the line, but manageable in the immediate. I am quite disappointed in the author to be so dismissive on a topic she is an “instant expert” on. Only on hacker news does a physicist who spends their days criticizing string theory (and whose expertise there makes sense) make the front page doing an analysis on testosterone.
  • zone411 4y ago
    Absolutely true. She's published a bunch of videos about all sorts of topics where she obviously has no clue what she's talking about and hasn't done any research besides reading the Wikipedia page. She gets basic facts wrong. Yet people on HN mistake being a cynic for some kind of insight and upvote them.
    • nells 4y ago
    • mdp2021 4y ago
      > Yet ... upvote them "Interesting" does not imply any in the set of "correct; insightful; clever; informed; perfected ..." A submission is a document. A post is part of a discussion. Hence Plato diminished the role of books, favoring those contributions which are "still alive". They are two pretty different realms. A document can be highlighted because pointing to something interesting; a post is more normally a direct contribution (highlighted for such value).
• bigbillheck 4y ago
  Maybe testosterone levels were elevated in the 20th century and this is just a return to baseline.
• valdiorn 4y ago
  Somewhat unrelated, but getting on TRT has been the best thing to ever happen to me. I've suffered very low test levels (well below reference range minimum) for a long time, due to being in SSRI meds for anxiety. Those meds do their jobs but crushed my test levels. Symptoms included lots of belly fat and man boobs (put on 30lbs in 2 years despite regular exercise), but the major issues were all psychological; low mood, low self esteem, no drive to do stuff. Finally got on TRT and it's turned everything upside down in the best possible way. I'm more assertive, but calmer, less anxious but also willing to tackle issues. Way more drive and motivation to do stuff. Horny like a teenager. Belly fat is melting away and exercise is showing incredibly fast results. I'm so incredibly motivated to work out because I can literally see progress in the mirror on a weekly basis. I do this all under doctors supervision (using a well known trt clinic in London), and have had no negative biomarker results, in fact quite the opposite, my lipids have gone from "you need help" to optimal. Even managed to knock up the wife. (I'm on HCG as well to maintain fertility). Guys, get your hormones checked. It will transform your life.
  • thathndude 4y ago
    What age did you test at? I’m knocking on 40 and thinking now would be a good time.
    • docandrew 4y ago
      I absolutely would get a hormone panel and a CBC too in your shoes.
  • docandrew 4y ago
    Do you think the original anxiety was due to low T levels? Did you get a hormone panel prior to getting the SSRIs prescribed?
  • wsc981 4y ago
    From my understanding: these meds will suppress testosterone production from your own body and you might be dependent on such meds for the rest of your life. So if there is no medical need, just healthy living (get enough sleep, exercise and eating good food) is the better approach to keeping testosterone levels up.
• gavinray 4y ago
  I want to offer a counter-point to some of the opinions held about testosterone in this thread. For background: I started taking lifting weights when I was 14, to train for competitive powerlifting. By the time I was 17, I was on steroids. I'm in my late 20's now, and I've got to be on TRT for life, due to how compromised my endogenous production of testosterone is (my Leydig's cells no longer function. They don't produce FSH/LSH, which in turn means I naturally produce the Test of an 80-year-old man). I got lucky in that my response to TRT puts my testosterone up around 1,100ng/dL which is around twice what the average person has. And during my steroid use, I have bloodwork where my testosterone was over 10,000ng/dL and e2 (estradiol) were over 200 pg/mL. You'd never know from talking to me, I'm super introverted and socially anxious. Even when I had the testosterone of quite literally 10 men, I was an introverted nerd who liked to sit quietly in my house and would prefer to lift by myself. I don't have much else to offer the thread, but I want to throw out of the notion of "testosterone/estrogen makes you some crazed he-man" out as a wives tale. I think people like to use it as an excuse/scapegoat for their behavior. Actually, maybe one interesting anecdote: My sex drive was no higher on copious amounts of anabolic steroids than it was before, often times it was worse
  • gavinray 4y ago
    As proof, here is a blood test with 7,500 testosterone: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Fk9P55VCuld0iQOO88dNxk0eIelcb_3q/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Fk9P55VCuld0iQOO88dNxk0eIel... And then years later, with 150 (slightly above female): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uhDVTBtYARCDrtL5ZL-zVrWLNjXdYZnQ/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1uhDVTBtYARCDrtL5ZL-zVrWLNjX...
    • tomjakubowski 4y ago
      Did you ever have free testosterone or SHBG levels checked? It's possible to have high total T but low levels of free T, which is the bioavailable stuff.
      • gavinray 4y ago
        Ah yes, I think I did have one bloodwork with SHBG done. I was on 250mg Test Enanthate a week then (no AI or other hormones, I think I may have been on GHRP/GHRP peptides like Ipamorelin + CJC 1295 but that's irrelevant): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mgqXihtCe9KgJHwRrFw60LLQuv5LDH74/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mgqXihtCe9KgJHwRrFw60LLQuv5... Here's the results for the lazy. The first number is the value, the second set of numbers are the reference ranges: Testosterone, Serum 1465 HIGH 348-1197 LH <0.2 LOW 1.7-8.6 FSH <0.2 LOW 1.5-12.4 Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum 10.6 LOW 16.5-55.9
• docandrew 4y ago
  The OP focuses on male testosterone levels, but women need testosterone too. They actually have more of it naturally than they do estrogen. I have a strong suspicion that birth control is causing disruptions in women’s hormone levels after they cease taking it, and wonder if maybe this is contributing to the decline in male levels alluded to in the post. But, the fact that levels were dropping prior to the introduction of the birth control pill seems to indicate that something else was going on too.
• antman 4y ago
  At what point of TRT does your own production of testosterone stop permanently?
  • rs_rs_rs_rs_rs 4y ago
    I don't think that's a given. For some production will restart for others no.
  • Auracle 4y ago
    If you’re wondering because you may want to try it, it takes a bit for your testes to shut down. I’m sure you can look up the usual length of time - for me it seemed to be a few weeks or so.
• thathndude 4y ago
  https://imgur.com/a/KeCPYzY https://imgur.com/a/KeCPYzY
• alienicecream 4y ago
  Testosterone is declining because we don't need it. Men aren't men anymore because you don't need to be a man to work in a comfortable desk job and reply to emails or sit in meetings all day long.
  • danbolt 4y ago
    What do you feel makes a man, then?
• photochemsyn 4y ago
  Some recent research (testosterone is a member of the androgen group): (2022). "Endocrine disruptors of sex hormone activities." Vartikovski et al. https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.mce.2021.111415 https://sci-hub.se/10.1016/j.mce.2021.111415 > "In this review we focus on sex hormones and their mimetics whose effects reach far beyond reproductive health and development: androgen (A), estrogen (E) and progesterone (P), because substantial experimental and epidemiologic data support their presence in the environment and potential effects as EDCs. We reviewed extensive literature on steroids in the environment and methods used for their detection, studies on variety of organisms, including fish and amphibians (Scholz et al., 2013). We have included glucocorticoids (G) in this review because activation of glucocorticoid receptor (GR) substantially alters the biological effects of other nuclear receptors, as described in the GR section. This information underscores the complexity in establishing guidelines for “acceptable” levels of EDCs, especially when a mixture of EDCs is detected in environmental samples." This is complicated because exposure in the womb can have effects that only occur later in life (post-puberty, say), so it's not just immediate environmental exposure. Abnormal hormone production could even be related to exposures in previous generations. > "The harmful effects of prenatal exposure to EDCs may not be immediately apparent and could manifest later in life, making it difficult to discern from other causes and some EDCs lead to harmful traits that are carried over to future generations (transgenerational effects) (Brehm and Flaws, 2019). These transgenerational effects frequently have epigenetic origin. Although they do not induce changes in DNA sequence, their effects are, nonetheless, inheritable (Ankolkar and Balasinor, 2016)." Note also there is public confusion over how sex hormones work: it's the ratio of 'male' to 'female' sex hormones that matters, as males and females also produce estrogen and testosterone respectively, so defects in either production pathway can have notable effects in women as well as in men: > "Human testosterone is mainly produced by testis in males and the ovary in females. In addition to male sexuality and reproductive health, androgens are also critical for female reproduction. Dysregulation of androgens in females results in polycystic ovary, which is associated with infertility, obesity, insulin resistance and other disorders." Practically, this means that in certain specific disorders, testosterone therapy for women and estrogen therapy for men are the appropriate options, although societally this would unfortunately be interpreted as some culture war issue regarding the 'feminization of men' or the 'masculinization of women'.
• Avlin67 4y ago
  because todays males have chicken legs and paper bones because of zero endurance exercise
  • oifjsidjf 4y ago
    How is endurance related to any of it? Eg I have very high natural T, go to gym and I have zero cardio endurance, I never do cardio. A possible reason are pills against pregnancy for women -> they then pee out the massive amount of estrogen due to pills -> that estrogen ends up in the water which ends up in the environment -> which ends up in our tap water.
    • Avlin67 4y ago
      did you test you blood ? how can you ensure you high level will persist ?
• oifjsidjf 4y ago
  A potential reason could also be fructose. While humans ate tons of carbs since agroculutural revolution those carbs were ~95% glucose (starch), eg potato, grains, rice, beans,... Only in the last ~70 years did we have an explosion in 1) sugar (50% fructose) and HFCS 2) fruits with a high sugar content: most modern fruits didn't exist ~100 years ago, and those that did had a fraction of fructose that modern fruits have. Fructose is known to be the most destructive things you can put in the body (glucose is almost harmless compared to it). Eg a study shown that replacing or even just replacing fructose with glucose had a massive improvement in fatty liver in children in just 9 days! Fructose is metabolized like alchocol, which is why in the ~1970 or 1980 you start seing T2 diabetes and fatty liver in children, while before T2 diabetes and fatty liver was only a problem of alchoholics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM
  • JPLeRouzic 4y ago
    Thanks for posting this, it's incredibly insightful.
  • lob_it 4y ago
    I watched both of Lustig's videos on fructose. A lot of interesting data. The american heart association estimates a 60%-70% overweight/obesity ratio. Individuals still choose their own lifestyle behaviors :)
• MadSudaca 4y ago
  The world will be ruled by people with higher testosterone.
• diogenescynic 4y ago
  Exposure to more hormone altering substances in plastics, non-stick liners, micro-plastics in skin care products, and on and on. An increase in antibiotics in raising animals which leads to fatter animals that people are eating. More prescription usage in general. Oh and more stress than ever...
• calibas 4y ago
  This article ignores two of the biggest suspects in the mystery. First, plastics leach endocrine disrupting chemicals that mimic estrogen into our food and drink. https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-069X-13-41 https://ehjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1476-06... Second, soy products in food contain endocrine disrupting chemicals that mimic estrogen. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12093826/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12093826/ We know if you give men estrogen, testosterone levels drop, so it seems to me like the focus should be on the enormous increase in consumption of estrogen mimicking chemicals.
• godelmachine 4y ago
  I think indulging in onanism keeps testosterone levels alright. Am I right?
  • docandrew 4y ago
    There’s a lot of FUD around this topic. I think immediately after the act there’s a brief, small downtick in levels which lead people to come up with movements like “nofap” as a way to increase T levels. It’s something that sounds like it kinda makes sense, but the clinical data, as I understand it, is inconclusive.
• netmonk 4y ago
  Modern diet is an undercover transition therapy.
• lob_it 4y ago
  Phytoestrogens could be an issue for some lifestyles. https://nutritionfacts.org/2019/06/04/beer-phytoestrogens/ https://nutritionfacts.org/2019/06/04/beer-phytoestrogens/ If you know your diet, you're not increasing estrogen in your own body
  • lob_it 4y ago
    It looks like a beer drinker does't like phytoestrogen. I'm still laughing at the "phytoestrogen or flight response" :p
• humaniania 4y ago
  Who is making money by selling testosterone?
• rrgok 4y ago
  Maybe this is the nature's way of limiting human population. We have recently reached the 8 billions.
• rthomas6 4y ago
  Part of it is definitely plastics. Specifically plasticizing agents such as BPA that mimic estrogen, though BPA is far from the only one. The plasticizers that have been used to replace BPA have not been well studied, and they are similar molecules. There is no evidence they are more safe. Ever eat or drink something hot out of a plastic container? Ever touch thermal paper such as a receipt? You just received a dose of synthetic estrogen. Hopefully there will come a time when greater society decides to care about this and limits plastics in food manufacturing and storage.
  • 4gotunameagain 4y ago
    My unpopular opinion is that this is a major factor that contributes to the trans (MTF) epidemic. FTM is more of a mass hysteria, which we know women are way more susceptible to. Now please go ahead and downvote me since my opinion violates your worldview.
    • jorse 4y ago
      My unpopular opinion is that it's mostly driven by porn. Too many guys wanting to be the women they jerk off to.
• mensetmanusman 4y ago
  Stationary life, less sun than required, too much sugar, over eating
• EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4y ago
  What's the crisis exactly? Half of humans have low testosterone, they live longer and healthier.
• cush 4y ago
  It's very surprising the article doesn't mention alcohol consumption as a factor
• dennis_jeeves1 4y ago
  Don't know the 'why' of why it's falling, most likely the environment. Other considerations aside But certainly today, most urban men are wusses and effeminate lot.