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I’m the nurse who called 911 for help with staffing
- willcipriano 4y agoDid I miss the part where the hospital was billed for the firefighters time? It's would be insanity to let them get away with this for free.
- MichaelCollins 4y agoDo firefighters normally pay hospitals to take responsibility for the patients the firefighters drop off at the hospital?
- willcipriano 4y agoThe hospital billed every single person they treated that night. They aren't a charity. They also bill the customers the firefighters kindly transport to their store free of charge for them.
- MichaelCollins 4y agoAnd the firefighters either got paid by the local government, or they are a charity and work as volunteers. But my point is that if hospitals help firefighters treat patients without charging the firefighters, then why should the firefighters charge the hospital to help the hospital treat patients? That's not reciprocal.
- willcipriano 4y agoHospitals don't "help treat patients" without charging the patient for it. The guys charging $100 for a box of tissues don't get to become collectivists all of the sudden.
- MichaelCollins 4y agoHospitals help not only the patients, but also the firefighters who are responsible for those patients before handing them off to the hospitals. And they provide that service to the firefighters without charging the firefighters. > The guys charging $100 for a box of tissues don't get to become collectivists all of the sudden. When you say "don't get to be", do you mean shouldn't get to be? Are you sure the firefighters did actually charge the hospital for this?
- willcipriano 4y agoThey don't provide the service to the firefighters, they provide it to the patient at a massively inflated cost.
- MichaelCollins 4y agoThey do both, they are related but distinct services.
- JshWright 4y agoWhat service do they provide to firefighters? That's like saying a concert hall provides a service to the taxi cab driver who drops off a patron. (Paramedics do _way_ more than just provide a taxi service, but that's the bit that's relevant to the analogy)
- kayfox 4y agoTwo things: Hospitals do consult on EMS calls at times, often without billing for it. Not all hospitals bill for every little thing, that really depends on the hospital and how they are funded. For example there are a number of children's hospitals that are funded by grants, donations and endowments. And some hospitals like the VA hospital system are funded by the government to serve specific segments of the population.
- JshWright 4y ago
- chrisseaton 4y agoDo you get billed by the fire brigade if they have to put out a fire at your house?
- willcipriano 4y agoYou do if you ask them to fill up a swimming pool or a similar non firefighting activity. Was a discount provided to the patients because the hospital was able to cheap out on labor? I'll bet not, why should the executive team keep that surplus that was created due to their mismanagement?
- chrisseaton 4y agoI guess all the matters is that the patients were supported - they're the tax payers and the ones who matter.
- VancouverMan 4y agoIf the local fire brigade is funded through municipal taxes, for example, then lots of people are getting billed anyway even when the fire brigade never comes to their houses.
- beeboop 4y agoTo be fair people in the waiting room aren't under the care/responsibility of the hospital. It's a public area.
- themodelplumber 4y agoIt seems the quote marks might be there because 911 wasn't really called, but it was still very serious... If you work in walk-in emergency health care you tend to take calling actual 911 way more seriously than most people do from what I understand, even though some would say there's not a huge difference between calling emergency services (911) and calling emergency services (non-emergency line). It's a point of nuance and a lot of people will tell you--911 is for the big and bad, usually near-deadly situations. Anyway it's interesting that there really was a legitimately deadly serious situation in multiple ways, and this person who represents the circumspect nursing community seemingly took even more additional circumspect care in phoning it in. When a lot of people in such a situation would have probably given up much earlier and perhaps even lost their composure & ability to work completely.
- SQueeeeeL 4y ago> this person who represents the circumspect nursing community seemingly took even more additional circumspect care in phoning it in. When a lot of people in such a situation would have probably given up much earlier and perhaps even lost their composure & ability to work completely. Remember y'all, every single nurse must be a superhuman who can deal with an infinite amount of stress of they're not a "real nurse". If only owners who didn't staff enough people in their medical facilities weren't "real owners" of said facilities, I think that would fix a lot of our issues.
- hallway_monitor 4y agoCan nurses unionize? It seems like they need it very badly. They get the short end of the stick with everything in medicine.
- unsupp0rted 4y ago> When I called, the dispatcher sent my request to the local fire chief, who then reached out to me, asked how he could help, and then sent a crew over to help monitor the lobby, retake vitals on patients, and do a roll call to ensure our patient list was accurate. We were all incredibly grateful for their help.
- neilv 4y ago> We’re told, "You make good money. You chose this career. If you don’t like it, why don’t you just quit?" [...] My response to them was, "Do you REALLY want nurses to 'just quit' if they don’t like their jobs? Think that one through a little further." Great response.
- dsfyu404ed 4y agoIt's a great response within some filter bubbles but among the general public there's no shortage of people who think that nothing will change until there are bodies that need to be explained away and that getting it over with sooner rather than later will result in less bad things overall.
- 0xdba 4y agoI have the same feelings about climate change. Nothing's going to change until shit gets much, much worse. Too bad to ignore.
- rtkwe 4y agoThe big issue with accelerationism like that is in a crisis like climate change by the time the issues are so bad they're non-ignorable resources will be so tied up addressing the symptoms there won't be slack left for addressing the underlying issues. Also for climate change specifically there's a huge hangover effect from already emitted greenhouse gases and carbon extraction is extremely difficult.
- jorgeleo 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- mindslight 4y ago"Bodies that need to be explained away" ? It's a hospital, that's literally one of their core functions. The death certificate reads "cardiac arrest" due to "$underlying_disease", not "nurse responded to call 30 minutes too late" due to "MBAs optimizing away every bit of margin and then some".
- Aeolun 4y agoThe response by the hospital is gold. You couldn’t get it any more perfectly meaningless if it was a layoff notice from Mark Zuckerberg.
- illuminerdy 4y agoI'm not criticizing for calling 911 for help, but wouldn't have calling another local hospital been a better option? The fire chief sending over his staff potentially leaves him short staffed. I can't imagine that a local fire department has that many people to spare.
- pettycashstash2 4y agoJust to be clear she called the non emergency number and spoke with dispatcher. The chief prioritized and made the correct call.
- Tangurena2 4y agoAll of the hospitals are in the same situation. Every hospital is understaffed due to large amounts of the nurses in America getting burned out from the Covid epidemic. Hospitals were understaffed prior to Covid (because managers were being cheap and refusing to have sufficient staff) and with many anti-vaxxers assaulting and threatening healthcare workers, many nurses quit the industry.
- beeboop 4y agoLet's not result to hyperbole. 99%+ of nurses quitting had absolutely nothing with threats of violence from antivaxxers.
- tzs 4y ago> I'm not criticizing for calling 911 for help, but wouldn't have calling another local hospital been a better option? There aren't any other local hospitals. The nearest other hospitals are in Seattle. Her hospital is in Silverdale. Silverdale and Seattle are separated by Puget Sound, so even though they are only maybe 15 miles apart, you either have to drive the long way around Puget Sound or you have to take a ferry. Without crossing Puget Sound the nearest other hospitals would be in Tacoma which is around a 40 mile drive away.
- iso1631 4y agoSeems so weird to me to read that a request for extra medial staff would go to firefighters. Intellectually I know the US has a combined Firefighter/Paramedic crew, but it's still jarring to read it. Do other countries merge firefighting and ambulance functions or is it a US only thing?
- nerdponx 4y agoThe US doesn't, we have dedicated EMTs. But firefighters might have first aid training too, and are more likely to be available on a random night.
- JshWright 4y agoThe US absolutely does, it just depends on the agency. I'm a firefighter/paramedic who sometimes rides a fire truck, sometimes rides an ambulance, and sometimes switches from one to the other mid-call as the situation warrants.
- ejb999 4y agoYes the US does - it varies by state and even by town/city. Many of the towns near me you need to actually be a paramedic to become a firefighter and vice-versa - can't be one without the other in some areas. Not sure I necessarily agree with this, but it does happen. I see the benefit, but also think there are a lot of people that would be good firefighters, but may not have the willingness or ability to do the classroom and testing required to be pass a full paramedic course.
- ubercore 4y agoIt totally depends on where you are -- some municipalities have their own EMTs, some are attached to fire, etc.
- kayodelycaon 4y agoWe have firefighters cross-trained to handle first aid so there are more people available in spread out areas. Often a fire truck is on scene faster than the ambulance. Once the ambulance is on scene, firefighters can assist paramedics.
- ClumsyPilot 4y agoIn the same vein, British nurses are going on strike now over pay and understaffing. In UK government sets their salary, so this is like all nurses going on strike - what do you do if you need to gove birth? There will be bodies. The thing I don't understand - allegedly coservative government is capitalist to the core. So they can't hire enough nurses. Are they going to increase pay to hire more nurses? No. Capitalism for me but not for thee. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63561305 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-63561305
- nivenkos 4y agoAnd salaries in healthcare are far, far lower outside the US. Like the UK and Europe pay absolute peanuts in comparison, just like in Tech, Law, etc. too.
- rtkwe 4y agoIt's also much more expensive to become a doctor in the US though right?
- ajmurmann 4y agoSo how high are the relative salaries for nurses?
- bitcharmer 4y agoI'll take my $300k UK tech salary over $400k in the US and not go bankrupt over a medical bill or have my child shot at school, or get beaten to a pulp by a cop for trying to exercise my rights, thank you.
- lupire 4y agoYour $300k is extremely rare.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y agoI make <$100k and I'd gladly make half what I do if I never had to worry about a medical bill ruining my life ever again.
- nerdponx 4y agoAt what point do we acknowledge that there is a systemic market failure and start trying to explore interventions and alternative arrangements? Hospitals are a public good, but hospital executives seem uninterested now in providing that good. So how do we fix that?
- BobbyJo 4y agoIt is more likely a regulatory failure, I believe. The market will do what the market does, raise prices for nurses until there are more. If nurses are in high demand, yet wages aren't rising, then there is either collusion among the employers, or some regulatory disfunction (too much, too little, the wrong kind, etc.) preventing it.
- xboxnolifes 4y agoIt can still be a market failure if it's taking advantage of nurse empathy for patients.
- madamelic 4y agoOne thought is to have a hospital co-op. I am half joking and have no clue how viable it would be. The most expensive part would be getting equipment but I am sure you could bait away people with the promise of ethical & responsible healthcare while being paid a fair salary. Something between a local charity clinic and a highly trauma-rated hospital. For instance, I use a local walk-in clinic like a primary care doctor but they occasionally tell you to go to the hospital. You can basically fit in between a walk-in clinic and a trauma rated hospital.
- gruez 4y ago>Hospitals are a public good Hospitals are emphatically not a public good. From wikipedia >In economics, a public good (also referred to as a social good or collective good)[1] is a good that is both non-excludable and non-rivalrous. For such goods, users cannot be barred from accessing or using them for failing to pay for them. Also, use by one person neither prevents access of other people nor does it reduce availability to others.[1] Therefore, the good can be used simultaneously by more than one person.[2] Hospitals definitely turn away patients who can't pay (non-emergencies), and a patient occupying a hospital bed prevents others from using it.
- jmclnx 4y ago> deploying innovative ways to attract and retain team members > Sign-on bonuses and loan forgiveness programs > Staffing incentives and shift premiums > Increasing investments in professional development and career pathways Doing everything except what is really needed, Real Pay Raises. All Sign-on bonuses do is incentive people to job hop. If you pay enough, people will stay.
- ncr100 4y ago> ... the fatigue and moral distress that is caused by working in a state of chronic crisis staffing levels, for a corporation that seems completely out of touch and apathetic to what is really happening in their beautiful new hospital.
- kennend3 4y ago> If you pay enough, people will stay. This is absolutely not true. Study after study have proven that there is a limit to the number of hours someone is willing to work. The real solution is to increase the NUMBER of nurses. This means removing the artificial barriers to entry. Their issue is BURNOUT and this is caused by staffing shortages and partly this is caused by artificial barriers to entry. Train more nurses, alleviate the shortages.
- LorenPechtel 4y agoIf you pay enough you can attract enough nurses that they aren't overworked and thus aren't prone to leaving.
- jiveturkey42 4y agoTo add more context to the nursing profession, this case is in the back of the back of the mind of every single nurse: https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/crime/2022/03/25/radonda-vaught-trial-vanderbilt-nurse-jury-verdict/7154135001/ https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/crime/2022/03/25/radon...
- siliconunit 4y agoUnhinged capitalism will be the cause of the most devastating global crisis that is just around the corner. You can see it very easily on a simplex plot, you cannot solve for anything useful, like global quality of life, when there are parameters that have infinites, ie infinite 'growth' bullshit. It's a closed system, limited planet. We need to find a better metric, and forget about 'getting rich, work all your life' crap, when you are dead you take few cubic meters of space including ground, all your real estate 'investing' and stress, they just end 6ft under.
- ChoGGi 4y agoSo the hospital's plan is to do everything they can, other than raising wages?
- thomastjeffery 4y agoNote that in its statement, the hospital had nothing to say about the concerns she laid out in the article. The only thing they care about is turnover. I do recognize that was the phrasing of the question they were responding to, but it's abundantly clear how out of touch they are. No mention of breaks. No mention of mental health. Just money and networking. > We’re told, “You make good money. You chose this career. If you don’t like it, why don’t you just quit?” That's the only question they can think to ask. The only way a nurse can make any impact in the institution is to walk away. The institution has turned a deaf ear to literally everything else. Anyone with half a brain can see how to fix this problem. Give nurses a stable and manageable job, and they will take it. It's not complicated. But the institution knows that they don't have to. Nurses will go through hell for their patients. So naturally, the institution will hold patients hostage to essentially blackmail nurses into maximum productivity. We can't expect nurses to go on strike. That's asking people who pursued a career of empathy and literal healing to abandon their patients. Sure, we are in a desperate enough situation that strikes are happening, but as soon as they get the minimum amount of progress, collective action will stop. It's glaringly obvious what we need: regulation. Nurses must be free to step away from work without fear for their patients' health. Only then will they have a voice.
- readthenotes1 4y agoBefore the The medical insurance business crew, and before the Johnson administration interfered with the market, many hospitals in the United States were run by religious organizations as a civic duty, not as a money-making venture. We can see the detritus of those days in the names of Baylor, Baptist, Presbyterian, St Michael's etc.
- thomastjeffery 4y agoEven religious institutions are not immune to corruption. They just have different expectations (charity) surrounding the same motives (growth).
- LorenPechtel 4y agoNote that one of the things they're doing is sign-on bonuses. In other words, a short term wage increase that just encourages nurses to hop to another job as soon as they have worked long enough to qualify for the bonus.