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One of the things I have a hard time conveying to non-parents is that the most time-intensive parts of parenting don't last forever. I've talked to a lot of yo

One of the things I have a hard time conveying to non-parents is that the most time-intensive parts of parenting don't last forever. I've talked to a lot of young people who say they don't want kids because they think their personal lives will permanently halt the moment they have kids. I spend a lot of time trying to explain that: 1) I still spend a lot of time with friends and can do most of my personal hobbies/activities on weekends. My wife and I are good at sharing the load. You don't need 2 parents watching kids 100% of the time. 2) The sleepless nights and diaper changes are a mere blip on the scale of a lifetime with kids. You deal with it, then the kids grow up quicker than you think. Don't let the idea of the first few months/years define your entire decision for how you want to structure your family for the rest of your life. 3) You actually like hanging out with your own kids. I talk to a lot of people who are anchored to some negative experience they had 10 years ago babysitting for someone else's kids, as if that was representative of parenting life. It's not at all. At the end of the day, I actually rush to finish up my work so I can have more kid time. It's fun.

31337Logic 4y ago
Thank you. :-)
rjh29 4y ago
When I imagine taking kids to the park, or camping or reading to them, or playing with them it just seems like a chore. Is that something that magically becomes different if it's _your_ kid? With my niece and nephew I enjoyed playing with them for an hour or so, then I wanted to be left alone. I get the feeling parenting is a bad idea in general for people who love being alone for extended periods of time.
- twoodfin 4y ago
  When I imagine taking kids to the park, or camping or reading to them, or playing with them it just seems like a chore. Is that something that magically becomes different if it's _your_ kid? Yes, of course. It’s not likely magic, more millions of years of evolutionary biology. But boy it feels like magic. (FWIW, I’m also someone who enjoys long stretches of alone time. Still get to do it, if somewhat less frequently. Still enjoy it.)
- mcrider 4y ago
  It definitely does but not completely. You are probably going to be totally smitten with your kid and spending time with them, even if its something "boring" is going to be really enjoyable. Unfortunately, your kid can sometimes be a brat (or at least mine is sometimes, but I'd guess a lot are!) and then these activities that are good for them can feel like a chore. I definitely like having my own space and at least with one kid, I'm still getting plenty of it. But the time I spend with her is incredibly rewarding (most of the time ;)
- jmcphers 4y ago
  It becomes different -- but not better or worse. The truth is that taking kids to the park can feel like even MORE of a chore when it's your own kids, because you've had to do it every week, it has no novelty, and you would love just a few hours to yourself instead because you're a parent and you don't get much of that. The reason it's still better when it's your kids, though, is that it's an investment. Kids are a lifelong relationship. They outlive you. All that time you spend with them starts paying interest and dividends, the same as it does when you spend time with other people you love and spend time with. My oldest is 12 now and she's funny, insightful, and one of my favorite people to be with. The years I invested in reading and parks with her in the early years are being paid back with hours spent talking about our favorite books and going outdoors together. It's worth it.
- flycaliguy 4y ago
  One thing that might be hard to appreciate is how much, at least for me, having kids changed my personality. I’ve become a much more patient person. Spending extended periods of time with my kids almost has a meditative quality in which I’m living in the moment and absorbing my surroundings in a deliberate way. My son’s presence in his environment provides a fresh perspective that I can tune into and ride along with.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    That's interesting. Kids made me much less patient, and also far more selfish. I have much less free time so I get absolutely frustrated if the remainder is wasted. I have far less money so I am loathe to give it to anyone in need or do much but hoard money at all costs lest the child need more $100 bills for the roaring cash fire they are. I have no time for friends so I have little incentive to be kind or cordial to others for the purpose of developing a relationship. My emotional capacity to care for others is drained by the child, so I have no empathy left over for others. Pre-kid me was far more patient, far more kind, far more generous, far more empathetic, and all around a much more pleasant and well rounded person.
    - nickd2001 4y ago
      Isn't that just that your patience / giving capacity is just being exhausted by your kid at the mo' ? No-one has unlimited capacity in that area. Maybe when the kid gets bigger, more independent, less demanding, you'll go back to how you were before? You might just have to apologise to some friends for having been cranky for a while? ;) Also don't underestimate how much capacity is drained by juggling work and kids. I think a lot of people who say kids are hard, really, their problem is work drains them too much. So, finding a more laid-back job, WFH etc, helps. I'm for sure much more laid back in the morning with the kids than I would be if I still had to rush out to the office. And reasonably laid-back about being interrupted from work to see the latest picture they've drawn or whatever, cos my work is not as stressful as some previous jobs
- coryrc 4y ago
  You get to choose what you do with your kids, to some degree. My cousin and his wife love sports, their kids are all in sports and they go to all the games -- they'd be doing that even without kids. I like walking and sneaking into construction sites, my kid likes walking and sneaking into construction sites because that's what we do.
- peter422 4y ago
  FWIW I have two children, aged 3 and 6 months, and I would say it is about accurate (for me) that the first hour is enjoyable and then the next 10 are less so. It's a chore that you are doing every single day. However, the older they get the less boring they are and I assume at some point I will get more out of the relationship. But I had the children so I gotta deal with what that entails and I'm comfortable with that. I went into this very willingly. But I absolutely have no judgement against people who don't want to have children... It might not be for you, I don't have any magical emotion that makes it less work, and there are many, many things I'd rather be doing.
  - bcrosby95 4y ago
    As they get older you can increasingly share your hobbies with them rather than be a pure source of child-like entertainment. I have a 7 year old and two 4 year olds, and we: play video games, watch movies, go for hikes, climb trees, go swimming, play various sports, play dnd, play board games, and paint warhammer miniatures together.
    - peter422 4y ago
      Yes I do anticipate that happening, but it's no guarantee. And even still doing 3-5 years of very hard parenting work to get to that is a lot... And I didn't even carry the children which is another year of very hard work! I'm not saying that I'm not happy with my decision to have children, but if I didn't really want to have them this would be rough.
- somekyle 4y ago
  I imagine it varies, but from most people I know, it's the very definition of "labor of love". It's certainly a big time and effort commitment and sometimes you'd rather not, but there's basically nothing in life I care about more than my kids. And they can, in a moment, give me more joy or fulfillment than I'd find in a week in my pre-kids life. I'm someone who needs alone time, and it's really hard for me at times, but their wellbeing impacts my wellbeing more than my wellbeing does, they sorta naturally became my #1 priority in life, so anything but taking care of them to the best of my ability simply doesn't make sense to me.
- 2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
  Playing with my nieces and nephews I found that it’s not hanging out that is a chore, but that they won’t always accept my years of experience as correct when I attempt to introduce them to the toys, games or shows that I grew up with. :P
- hellisothers 4y ago
  I like the garden metaphor for kids, works in a lot of situations. Like here, if somebody asked me to water/weed their tomato plants for a weekend I would not terribly enjoy it and if “having a tomato garden” was just that times 50 then forget it. But if you plant the garden and experience the joy of caring for the plants and the (literal) fruit of your labor it’s a different story.
- WheatMillington 4y ago
  I'm an introvert who enjoys alone time, and a parent of two. I agree with you on all your points, you're entirely correct. No, that stuff doesn't become magically enjoyable.
- wil421 4y ago
  I have a 3 year old, 17 month old, and a 3 week old. My oldest and middle child go bike riding with me and my bike trailer. They also go kayaking with my wife and I. It can be a chore at times but over all it’s not and very enjoyable. They have a shorter limit than us for doing things. It’s not a chore it’s a necessity. They are such a joy sometimes it’s unbelievable so you just grind it out. The lack of sleep is my least favorite part with the babies but it’s not so bad.
- warner25 4y ago
  I'll go ahead and say that you aren't wrong. I have four kids under eight years old. I often feel like I'm just trying to kill the hours until they nap or go to bed, when I can finally have some quiet time alone. I feel very guilty about this whenever I'm reminded that this should be the best chapter of life with my kids, and it'll fly by, and I'll miss it when it's gone. I'm not saying that I don't have moments when I gaze at my kids in awe and feel full of love (which does seem to be different when they're _your_ kids)... I'm just usually exhausted and need more alone time, as an introvert, to recharge. The article is right that "When kids are outside for lengthy periods of time they become engaged, contemplative, calm and happy. In other words, they don't drive you bonkers!" If we're inside our house, they fight and scream and cry and make a mess and break things and never leave me alone. If I take them outside, they can spread out and explore and the house stays intact (so I don't have to clean / fix it later). Sometimes at the park I can even read something or listen to a podcast / audiobook while they play.
- FactolSarin 4y ago
  I rarely take mine to the park for the reason you mentioned.... It's boring. I just tell my kids to go play outside. They're 7 and 8 and are each other's best friend. Just find something you and your kids enjoy and do that
- irrational 4y ago
  I love being alone for extended periods of time. I once went to a week long conference and at the end of the week I realized that I had not spoken to a single person the entire week, after telling the people at the conference check in desk my name. But, I love spending time with my kids. It doesn’t feel like a chore at all.
- refurb 4y ago
  I don’t know if it’s true for everyone, but it was for me. It’s night and day difference between looking after someone else’s kid and my own. I guess it’s the sense of responsibility that you are the main caregiver and how your kid turns out is pretty much up to you and your partner.
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    Same for me, I never liked being around or babysitting young kids that much. But it is totally different with my own kids. And I have noticed that I don't avoid other people's young children quite as much now either because I have learned to appreciate their energy, happiness, and humor (both intentional and unintentional humor).
- jahewson 4y ago
  It’s the same with exercise. People say it’s a great lifelong persist but I tried it for an hour and it’s just awful.
- Tade0 4y ago
  Before becoming a parent I generally avoided kids. I had some vague plan about starting a family, but that was it. It wasn't enjoyable from the get go. But with time we started forming a bond and having our own little habits. Bottom line is initially you don't know this person so it's hard to expect from you to automatically have a great time. But as a child develops they become more interesting overall.
scandox 4y ago
I enjoy being a parent but my advice to people who ask if they should have kids is that you really have to want to have kids because all the benefits are intangible and all the drawbacks are tangible. People who say they don't want kids, usually mean it - whether they've identified their real reason or not.
- knaekhoved 4y ago
  People say they want or don't want a lot of things, but it turns out they're often really bad at predicting net utilitarian impacts. A lot of people who say stuff like "I don't want to have kids because I'm happier buying funko pops and video games" are probably just wrong about their counterfactual happiness level.
- julianlam 4y ago
  > all the benefits are intangible and all the drawbacks are tangible. That's quite well-said. I've heard it expressed many different ways but this one I think I'll appropriate :)
- dragonsky67 4y ago
  I'm not sure why there is a stigma to deciding to not have kids. It's not as if your decision is going to have much impact on anybody except yourself or the potential grandparents who may feel that they are missing out, but that is very much their problem. All this talk of "perpetuating the species" is so much crap... The species will get along quite well without everybody contributing their genetic material. At least those who decide not to have kids are making a thoughtful decision, many unfortunately can't or dont.
  - Poppys 4y ago
    There are tangible problems with a low birth rate though, which western economies are experiencing now.
    - frontman1988 4y ago
      That's just a transitionary problem. Even just 50 years ago there were half of us as now. 99% of humanity's history has had less than 1 billion people. 8 billion people is way more than needed and it's showing it's ill impacts on the enviroment as well.
issa 4y ago
"forever" is very relative. If you have one kid, and a partner to raise them, then what you describe is very accurate. But if you have two kids spread out over a few years, then you can pretty much assume 15+ years of your life are going to be very kid focused. This is not a BAD thing! But go in with open eyes! And, most importantly, results will vary significantly. All kids are different. And factors like if you live close to family, are comfortable financially, etc will have a huge impact.
- JamesSwift 4y ago
  Agreed. I always say getting married means the previous phase of your life is now over. Thats not a statement on better or worse, its just that you've now transitioned to another phase. Its the same with kids. Pre-kid life is now over. This is a new, different phase.
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    Interestingly enough, this advice is bordering outdated. In the US, recent estimates put children being born to unwed parents at around 40%. This varies by race and income- for example, since 1990 the rates for white parents doubled from 15 to 28%, whereas on the other end of the spectrum the rate went from 63 to 69% for children of black parents. Breaking down by economic, education and other levels follow more or less similar trends- big jumps at the low end of the range, small jumps on the upper end. Edit- another interesting tidbit, divorce rates are highest among those over 55; presumably, parents whose children are now adults are moving on, whereas younger parents simply aren't getting married in the first place.
    - rdtwo 4y ago
      It makes sense parents that don’t share the load equally drift apart. I see so many families where one parent gets all the hobbies and trips while the other gets to stay home or work on kids and Housework 24/7
- Narkov 4y ago
  So much this! Add in health issues to your list of "reasons why things can be different". It's ignorant to think that your experience with kids is how it is for everyone. Kids can be hard - very hard.
Ptchd 4y ago
I never wanted kids and I ended up being a stay-at-home parent... messed up my life pretty good...
deamanto 4y ago
Hey just wanted to say that I really appreciate this comment and it's an opinion I haven't seen shared before even though in hindsight it's obvious. I personally have chosen not to have kids - one reason is doomer level but the other is time and independence. I have a dog that is a relatively (to kids) minor responsibility but in my day to day life feels like the biggest responsibility, I compare that to having a kid which I would say is a lot more and I wouldn't want to take on as I've already experienced a dog and that is as far as I'd go. But while you haven't changed my mind, you have negated a lot of my feelings towards a previously thought "lifelong responsibility"
- popularrecluse 4y ago
  Well another thought is that the only way to revert this so-called doomerist path is to choose to have and raise kids with empathy for others and with care towards the natural world they've inherited. Because the people who don't give a shit ain't going to stop having them.
  - gday2020 4y ago
    Raising them with good values doesn't mean that they will keep those throughout their life, unfortunately. Quite risky to bet on that.
    - maroonblazer 4y ago
      I have no data to support this but I'm willing to bet that the likelihood they do keep those values is significantly greater than the likelihood that they don't. So, a very low risk bet.
- sshine 4y ago
  I've heard having a dog is like having a kid that never grows up. In some ways they're always more independent of a child. In some ways they never will be.
- hattmall 4y ago
  Having a dog is legitimately more than a kid 90% of the time if it's an indoor dog you treat like a kid. It's different, but constant and the dog never becomes self sufficient. It's also more challenging to travel with them.
xvedejas 4y ago
I think the main thing that informs me personally is that I didn't enjoy spending time with my parents when I was a kid. I imagine those who want kids must have had a more positive kind of childhood experience and relationship with their parents.
- aconsult1 4y ago
  In my experience this isn't true at all. Having kids really is a blank slate and it's up to you to decide how you want to raise yours. I do a lot of things different than my parents did to me, including being more thoughtful about being a good friend, not just their parents. I didn't have the best experience with my parents either. Not that I hated them but they never felt like friends to me. My kids will decide how they feel about me when they get older but I'll do everything in my power to let them know that I'm genuinely interested in being friends with them. I'm sorry you didn't have good memories with your parents but I came here to say that this should not be an excuse to not having kids if that's something that you're considering.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    Even if you want to be a different parent than your parents, it can be difficult to change the course when you don't have that experience to draw off of. You're both genetically and culturally the product of your parents, and naturally any perceived negativity about your parents has an influence that commonly pushes you towards that direction. It's not unusual to read stories of people who had abusive parents, that then went on to abuse their child, even though they never wanted to be that way. While we can make conscious choices, it's doubtful you have complete free will to separate from genetic and culture tendencies.
  - xvedejas 4y ago
    I don't think it's an excuse to not having kids, but I do think generally I have yet to find an excuse to have kids. So far it doesn't interest me. But still, I do wonder whether there's a good reason for that.
    - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
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dubeye 4y ago
I have more of a 'when in rome' approach to kids. It's what humans tend to do, so I'll give it a go. Not everyone who goes on holiday to Rome has to do the tourist stuff though! But I'm not creative enough to work out what else to do...
conductr 4y ago
Love this comment wanted to also share my biggest regret in life is waiting to have kids. I became a dad at 38. All the nights out with friends, happy hours, sleeping late, etc. mean very little now but I’d trade the world to be able to spend more time on earth with my kid. Hopefully we maximize what we do have but, whatever it ends up being, it could have been more.
- qwerpy 4y ago
  Became a dad at a similar age and have the same regrets. Then again I met the right woman very late as well. There are some benefits though. Finances are well established and early retirement is within reach, so I have the freedom to quit any job that doesn’t respect my time. My kids will get a lot more time with their dad than many other kids will. The thing we need to do is to stay healthy and try to be energetic.
lamontcg 4y ago
I don't really like kids. I didn't really like kids when I was a kid. And that largely gets worse the older they get, up until they start pushing 30 or so.
- kotlin2 4y ago
  Obviously this doesn’t hold true for everyone, but your attachment to your kid has nothing to do with how you feel about kids in general.
  - lamontcg 4y ago
    You start by saying you're not generalizing to literally everyone, but then you follow up by generalizing to literally everyone. You can state that "my attachment to my kid has nothing to do with how I feel about kids in general" but the way you've phrased it makes it generalized and you apply it to the generic you. Talking about "your attachment to your kid" reads very much like lecturing me about how you're telling me I'll feel.
    - kotlin2 4y ago
      I start by saying “Obviously this doesn’t hold true for everyone” which means I’m about to make a generalization, and generalizations, by the diverse nature of people, are unlikely to apply to every single person even if they hold true in a majority of cases.
WheatMillington 4y ago
I don't think I'm necessarily having the same experience as you.... my advice to people who aren't sure if they want kids, is DON'T. It's bloody hard, you sacrifice A LOT. Don't have kids unless you're very sure it's what you want. I have 2 kids under 6 and I feel like I just don't have any time for any of my hobbies any more. I leave for work first thing, come home in the afternoon, and haven't had any time for myself until the kids are down at 7.30, and I'm utterly wasted. Weekends are just chaos, yeah we can divide and conquer but that only goes so far. As for enjoying hanging around with kids.... I don't know what age that starts, but I'm 5 years and counting. Honestly I'm exhausted, and I'm not gonna lie, I have some regret about having kids when I see the child free people around me, and how they're spending their 30s.
- tacoman 4y ago
  Yes, spending time with little kids can be really boring, be present when it counts though. This period of life doesn't last forever so take care of your health and maintain your important relationships with whatever energy you can muster. Every time I look at pictures of my kids when they were younger I feel a tinge of regret for not being more in the moment.
  - warner25 4y ago
    I feel the same as WheatMillington most of the time, but also feel the same as you when I look at pictures of my kids from the past few years. It's so conflicting.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - klipt 4y ago
      "The days are long, but the years are short"
      - spockz 4y ago
        100% this. Be in the moment. Enjoy. Play. You can rest later. (When the kids are bigger and can do chores themselves. ;-))
dhdhhdd 4y ago
My kids are 5 and 2. I spend increasing amount of time with the 5 year old. Doing different projects, reading, math, teaching him how to read watch, talking about how stuff works. I don't know if it's less, it's just different.
fortylove 4y ago
Completely agree with this comment. Having two kids is the best thing that's happened to me in life. Sure it's hard, especially early on. But to see them grow and make the right decisions is a better feeling than any work project or hobby can provide.
throwaway754653 4y ago
Glad it worked out for you but I have to disagree 100% -- we have 2 kids (2 and 5) and it feels like they're only getting more time intensive as they age. Your anecdote about work made me laugh - my wife and I (both fully remote, WFH) have been dreaming of finding in-office jobs just to have more time away from the kids. I now relish my time at work, the only reprieve I'm able to get!
- mlyle 4y ago
  Not my experience at all. The problems get more complicated, but further and further apart. The need for minute by minute management evaporates.
throw0101c 4y ago
> 2) The sleepless nights and diaper changes are a mere blip on the scale of a lifetime with kids. You deal with it, then the kids grow up quicker than you think. The days are long, but the years are short.
- dugmartin 4y ago
  As a parent of an 15 and an 18 year old I have to agree - it’s also my go to phrase when I meet a parent of a younger kid. It’s hard but enjoy those years.
smesla 4y ago
Yeah but now I have to consider suicidal teenagers and climate change. I'll be lucky to live to 70, my (potential) kids, maybe 60, if the environment doesn't completely collapse.
- rdtwo 4y ago
  Climate change won’t affect you unless you are poor. If you are poor then being poor is a much more immediate problem.
  - kelp 4y ago
    The wildfire smoke every year impacts millions of people in the west. Just this summer I was watching the Mosquito fire updates daily to see if we were going to have to evacuate. Fortunately it rained and prevented that. There were days where we had to huddle in one room with multiple air filters going to keep the air breathable. Couldn't really go outside at all. The AQI outside was well over 500 for days at a time. Not poor, and I'd say we were pretty impacted by it.
  - adrianN 4y ago
    Climate change, even in the best case scenarios, is affecting everybody, not just the poor, just like economic growth affects everybody. I don't even want to think about the worst case scenarios.
- SoftTalker 4y ago
  At least your kids won't be eaten by lions (probably).
andsoitis 4y ago
> time-intensive parts of parenting don't last forever. Time is not just measured in times of hours, days, and years, but also in emotion and $$$.
allisdust 4y ago
The only time I regret having kids is when I see them suffer (even for small things like being down with flu). Much easier to suffer ourselves than see our own kids suffer. Really brings out the vulnerability in people.
SoftTalker 4y ago
You're not wrong, but your life never goes back to its pre-kid state. My kids are all adults. I still think about them every day, advise them, help them, worry about them. When my wife was pregnant with our first, an older co-worker said "your life will never be the same" and she was right.
sneak 4y ago
> The sleepless nights and diaper changes are a mere blip on the scale of a lifetime with kids. You're looking at what, 2-5 years of that? Per kid? Plus the huge time commitments for all of the other burdensome stuff that having kids entails, like school and transport and non-school education? 2-5 years out of a lifetime isn't much, but 2-5 years out of your 30s or early 40s is a gigantic percentage of your remaining not-old life. Unless you're a major biological outlier, you're not traveling on sporting vacations or backpacking trips or hallucinogen-fueled music festivals when you're 55. You don't get a lot of useful years remaining as a not-old person by the time you're old enough to responsibly have kids. It's a gigantic tradeoff and to minimize it like this is woefully shortsighted. It's fine if you like kids and didn't have actual plans to have fun in your 30s or 40s, but people with exciting lives will lose a lot if they suddenly have to dedicate almost all of their free time for 5 years to their offspring. This is also assuming that you have more than enough money to spend on kids and all of the other things you like to do in life. Even if kids took 0 time (which as we know they do not), this is not true for most people. > You actually like hanging out with your own kids. Some people do. Sometimes children grow up to be terrible, for reasons outside of direct parental control. Not every potential bad final outcome can be avoided with good parenting. Not everyone who thinks kids might be a good idea is capable of being a good parent. I personally find the idea of having huge, tremendously expensive, hugely time-consuming, unavoidable responsibilities like this in the middle of the prime of my life to be a living nightmare, for well-considered reasons which you seem to simply handwave away as trivial. Having kids and raising them well must necessarily become one of your primary goals in life, displacing others as there are only 24 hours in each day. We don't have a lot of time left.
- zinckiwi 4y ago
  I have 4 kids whom I love dearly, and I don't _regret_ having them. But often I wish I could be in a sci-fi movie where I get to live two lives simultaneously; one with, one without. It's not as much the excitement of my alternate life, or the reservation of more resources for myself (money, time, etc.) though that, selfishly, sounds nice. It's mostly the stress and ever-present burden of being a parent. I could do without it sometimes.
volkl48 4y ago
1) You may be good at this or have some situation in terms of support structures or lifestyle where this is particularly easy, but this is not at all what many parents I know/encounter express to me (as a person who's openly childfree). The combination of more than one kid and 2 parents working FT out of the home, seems to equal an absolutely exhausting long-term grind for many unless they've got a lot of family nearby who are both willing and able to share that load. 2) To be replaced by endless after school activities/sports, events, and other child-related things. Fine if you like them, but if not you're not seriously getting your free time back until maybe the teenage years. A decade+ in the prime of your life is not a "mere blip" to many. 3) You do (which is great - clearly you're the sort of person who should have kids). There are a lot of people who have children and....don't suddenly find an appreciation for children. The vast number of children in the world with a willfully absent, abusive, or simply disinterested and not loving parent stand as a clear counter-argument, and the statistics on child abuse/neglect are pretty awful. On the anecdotal side - It's pretty heartbreaking how many of those I grew up with (who had outwardly normal, upper middle class families) turned out to have those sorts of terrible parents and traumatic childhoods...and those are just the ones I know about. I'm thankful I didn't have that childhood, but a shocking number of children do. I think it's misleading to promote this ideal like it's just going to happen for everyone who has kids and leads to people who shouldn't have children having them and resenting them or worse.
- MrPatan 4y ago
  Why would I tell a childfree friend about the joys of parenthood? Who would do that? To somebody who's just Wrong on the Internet, though, I would happily say that it's not the most important thing. It's the only thing. Good luck!
- jahewson 4y ago
  I think you’re painting a pretty simplistic and distorted caricature of reality.
  - volkl48 4y ago
    I don't think I am, at least speaking to the US, but if you've got a particular argument I'm open to hearing it. ----------- Just as some related examples to illustrate that there's a whole lot of children not growing up in some idealized life though: ~23% of children in the US live with one parent and no other adults in the household. ~40% of children born to married parents in the US will see those parents divorce before they turn 18. ~40% of children are born to unmarried parents. I don't know where to find what the rate for those parents splitting up is, but I'll assume it's probably not better than the married ones. 1/7 children experienced abuse or neglect in the past year, 1/4 will at some point in their childhood.
brnt 4y ago
People have made having kids into a Mission Impossible: as if the only way to raise them is to give them the most perfect time, education, fun, etc. There is a difference between understanding it is a bit of a commitment, that there are better and worse ways to do things, as is true for any worthwhile endeavor, and setting yourself up for failure by imagining you can do no less than fully plan out and control a perfect upbringing. Have a little faith in yourself, humans have done this for a while, without both knowledge we have now (which will help you) and unhealthy perfectionist culture (which can only stand in your way). I'm the last person to convince anyone to get kids, but, as in other parts of life, I object to the perfectionist path. If that's what's stopping someone: relax! It's a big deal, but not the mountain you imagine it to be. Also, you probably have no idea of the rewards. I didn't expect kids to be fun from basically day 1. To see them experiencing and learning from the very first days on is such a treat! Also, biology has prepared you with instincts that you don't know exist until you need them.
jollofricepeas 4y ago
You know what’s kind of weird? …When people say they can’t do any of their own hobbies because they have kids. I get it if you’re into kinky or extremely dangerous hobbies BUT… - I’ve always shared my hobbies with my kids. When I was really into making music, I gave my toddler at first Toca Music and then eventually their own iPad with GarageBand and we would just make songs together. - When I wrote apps, I taught them Scratch. I’d work on myself and they’d do their own kiddie stuff next to me. - Same with working out, I grab the weights while my kids do calisthenics and then we go jogging together. - We read books together. Sometimes the same ones or different ones. - We go out to eat and try different cultural foods. You name the cuisine my kids have eaten and probably love it from Armenian to Senegalese. Make your kids a part of your hobbies (don’t force it on them) and your lives will be more richer for it. Trust me ;)
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  This is good advice but you have to change your expectations. You’re not going to get the same kind of run with a 5 yr old as alone, for example.
  - YeBanKo 4y ago
    This advice is great on paper, but hard to impossible to practise. I see some of my older friends can do it with their kids who are 8-12 years old, but there seems to be a very short period of time between being able to actually do something with them until they have their own interests and hobbies.
  - novok 4y ago
    Put the 5 year old on your shoulders and make it twice the workout :p
    - BLKNSLVR 4y ago
      My daughter used to climb on my back when I did push ups for some additional resistance. She used to give me a light slap if I was taking too long between reps. Good times.
hzhou321 4y ago
It's not about the amount of time kids takes up in your life. It is about how kids changes your life forever. Your priority in life changes, then your life changes. I guess when kids leave us, we need relearn the life.
YeBanKo 4y ago
Diaper change and sleepless night with a new born are probably among the easiest things in parenting. I don't know how you manage to have hobbies or activities on weekends, unless your can engage them in your hobbies. Mine are too young for that.
DuckFeathers 4y ago
> young people who say they don't want kids because they think their personal lives will permanently halt the moment they have kids They say that because they know they can't trust their kids with abusive child care system or the abusive schooling system which creates people who perpetuate the abuse to give power to corrupt government and corrupt corporations. You can have as many kids you want and still have all the time if you don't intend to be responsible for them.
xani__ 4y ago
ookblah 4y ago
lol maybe you're seeing it with rose colored glasses... as someone seeing my friends all go thru this right now, for the majority it sure looks like their life is way more stressful and not in a good way. this trickles down into everything...work, marriage, etc. justifying it by saying it's not gonna last forever seems more like a copout, no offense. i maintain that you shouldn't have kids unless you really, really want them. your life goals will take a backseat and your marriage better be on solid ground.
gernb 4y ago
I'd be curious if this holds up just viewing my friends kids. It seems from the outside, some enjoy their kids, some don't. Some have kids who are generally pleasant to be around, some don't. I've always wanted kids but I of course imagine having the pleasant to be around kind. Not that I wouldn't do my best to see they come out that way but I'm sure most of the parents with unpleasant kids thought they were doing the right thing at the time.
rakoo 4y ago
They don't last forever... But they are still there. They still take time and energy, probably at a point in life where you can do absolutely everything but have to choose. It also has an impact on your health, because you can't live 3-4 years with short nights and not have an effect on you. It still costs money. It still takes up some of your nights to do something else. As a non-parent, and someone who doesn't want to be, you sound like someone saying "it's not so bad". Which it probably is, but I'm still not convinced the good outweighs the bad, and I probably never will
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  > good outweighs the bad It's not that sort of rational choice. Choice can be an enemy of joy. For most of human history you just woke up one day and found you were a parent (no immaculate miracles necessary). Birth control and career centred lifestyles have changed that. And that's mostly good, at least for child welfare. But what if life were more arbitrary? I remember that strange study on happiness that followed the fortunes of one group of people who won a lottery, and another who had life-changing serious injuries. Fortune or misfortune could not account for their long-term happiness, because people are complex and adaptable. I think it's similar with parenting. Having children is both the worst and the best thing that can happen to you. Some days you wake up and think "You ruined my life. WTF am I doing?". Other days are filled with sublime ecstasy, feeling literally blessed with something you know is missing from other people's lives, and feeling eternally grateful. And those two feelings are not incompatible.
  - rakoo 4y ago
    > It's not that sort of rational choice. It has to be. It's all nice and rosy to feel blessed by sharing your life with another human being, but it is a lifelong commitment, with a good chunk of time and money dedicated to it. If I look at the first link investigating income (https://www.investopedia.com/median-income-by-state-5070640 https://www.investopedia.com/median-income-by-state-5070640), I see that between 9% and 19% people are below or at the poverty rate in the US. Is it rational to have a child in this situation ? Children take focus and abnegation for education. Do you have the mental space for them ? Will you keep your cool at all time and never let anger get the better of you ? Do you have the support structure for helping you, the parent, when things go wrong ? Only people with comfortable lives, who can afford kindergarten, nannies or people-to-whom-you-drop-them-off, all the specific furniture, can say the choice is not that rational. But that's definitely not where most people are.
e-master 4y ago
I can relate to number 3 so much. Especially as kids get 4 years old and older it becomes a lot of fun to spend time with them. And it’s not even playing with them that I enjoy much, though building Lego or a puzzle is fun, but working with them on homework or music assignments or karate is so satisfying as you see them grow and you do see that your presence actually makes a big difference in their motivation when they approach some task.
deleted 4y ago
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a_c 4y ago
I am in early 30s and have 2 kids. Didn't particularly want kids before but also not resistant of having. Absolutely the best decision in my life. The difficult part is that experience is hard to be shared. One can only tell other their own experience but other won't share the same experience. It is like seeing the color red, we sort of know what red feels like, but only sort of. Your red is never my red, and we will never know the difference. Every weekend is exhausting, yes. After work means another shift of work/chore, yes. They drip food all over the floor, the quibble with each other endlessly, they break everything in your house. Yes, yes, and yes. But it is joyful, it is satisfying, it is fulfilling, it is irrational. And I only get so much time together with them. Assuming 8 hours a day before turning 12 yo and maybe 12 hours a week from 12-18yo, that's about 4.5yr worth of time. 4.5 yr is really a tiny blip in our life. Treasure it while we can
chronofar 4y ago
> The sleepless nights and diaper changes are a mere blip on the scale of a lifetime with kids. You deal with it, then the kids grow up quicker than you think. Don't let the idea of the first few months/years define your entire decision for how you want to structure your family for the rest of your life. This is just a common feature of our perception of time not constrained to child rearing. Past years seem to have gone by quickly while the present moment seems to have an eternity in front it. It's also a common feature of our perception to rationalize past decisions as foundation of the current moment ("wouldn't trade it for the world") without really understanding the counterfactuals (are you sure you wouldn't?). Anyway I agree one should generally not let the experience of a few years of hardship detract from a life direction they may find fulfilling, but one should also not take the present for granted or be readily willing to subscribe to a miserable present in hopes that it blossoms into a worthwhile future. We're too bad at predicting the future to make those trades reliably well (though the aforementioned bias will (mis)lead us into thinking we're quite good at it). > You actually like hanging out with your own kids. I talk to a lot of people who are anchored to some negative experience they had 10 years ago babysitting for someone else's kids, as if that was representative of parenting life. It's not at all. At the end of the day, I actually rush to finish up my work so I can have more kid time. It's fun. You shouldn't be so ready to extrapolate your experience to the hypothetical future experience of others who are already skeptical. Your 10 year ago babysitting example sounds like a strawman anecdote. I know plenty of people who simply don't enjoy the company of children, their own included. There is of course a biological propensity to have an outsized affection and enjoyment of one's own children, but that is not universally applied to everyone, and not everyone finds endless joy in experiencing the world through the eyes of a child or playing the role of caregiver. Some certainly do and that's great, but it's not a universal truth.
vishnugupta 4y ago
I have two kids, one is independent second one is almost three but still needs my semi-supervision. Most of my time I spend working or pursuing hobbies. But outdoor time is still limited but I guess that too won’t be a challenge soon. I have seen a few folks who are without kids in their late 30s and 40s. While they are financially successful they seem sort of lost, without any purpose. For me, having kids gives me that anchoring purpose. It’s two new humans going through their own life journey and it gives me immense satisfaction that I am playing a small part of that and that I will live on in their memories, hopefully good memories :-)
A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago
<<1) I still spend a lot of time with friends and can do most of my personal hobbies/activities on weekends. My wife and I are good at sharing the load. You don't need 2 parents watching kids 100% of the time. I think this is one of the biggest factors in terms of successful child rearing. I am relatively lucky in that aspect that we seem to make it work ( 9/10 -- we just had a longer conversation about it; clearly due to miscommunication some expectations were not conveyed openly enough ), but everyone's situation may be a little different and accommodation may be needed to find appropriate balance. << 3) You actually like hanging out with your own kids. I talk to a lot of people who are anchored to some negative experience they had 10 years ago babysitting for someone else's kids, as if that was representative of parenting life. It's not at all. At the end of the day, I actually rush to finish up my work so I can have more kid time. It's fun. Full agreement here. That was the second time I was reminded what vicarious really means.
wink 4y ago
> I still spend a lot of time with friends and can do most of my personal hobbies/activities on weekends. My wife and I are good at sharing the load. You don't need 2 parents watching kids 100% of the time. I'm not sure there's actually anything to discuss here, but you present anecdata and I'm happy it works out for you. I guess you've talked to several people who just seem to have a completely different experience. I'd say 3-4 out of 5 couples will typically wall off completely once they have kids and you can go from seeing them every week to... maybe 2-3 times a year. Mind you, I am not complaining - I am merely trying to observe and document. If you don't need both parents watching the kid(s)? Cool. Most couples I know won't split up for the evening so one of them can go out regularly to meet friends, they will both stay at home. This sometimes gets better when the kids are old enough so they can bring them, but I've seen that take 6-8 years. > Don't let the idea of the first few months/years define your entire decision for how you want to structure your family for the rest of your life Coming back t your point one - 10 years can be a long time, especially if it's about losing contact to friends. When they're gone your life may have actually changed, because now you need new friends, if you value that part. Again, please don't take this as any kind of blame - but it's not really hard to convey, and I've certainly simplified a lot of thing. You don't just stop talking to your friends because you now have kids, there are other reason - but my experience (and probably that of the people you want to convey things to) is that if your friends get kids, there's a good chance you'll lose access to them, and ultimately, lose them as friends - unless you live close and get kids at the same time.
xeonmc 4y ago
I like to think of it as starting a new Minecraft survival world. Time-intensive at the start, but that's you setting things up to gradually needing less and less attention.
dr-detroit 4y ago
astura 4y ago
>You actually like hanging out with your own kids My parents never liked being around me and made sure I knew it.
fullstop 4y ago
It all goes by in the blink of an eye. I've had my ~1,000 weekends with my oldest, and now she's at school and living on campus. My youngest is in high school and spends so much time in activities that I only get to see her for a few hours each day and a lot of that time is while she is doing homework. I'm now at a point in my life where I'm 100% debt free and I'm seriously considering cutting back and finding a low stress job which still offers decent benefits so that I can spend more time with her and give myself more time to spend on hobbies and with my wife. We had kids in our early and mid 20s, so I'll have an empty nest before I'm 50 and I don't regret it one bit.
jalk 4y ago
The Making Sense podcast episode with Russ Roberts[1] touched on these points with a reference to Charles Darwin who at some point made a pros/cons list of getting married. All the pros were rather boring practical things. Roberts argue that it was missing all the positive things that you don't see as a bystander (emotion based). The same goes for having children - you cant see the warm feeling inside that most parents still have for their kids despite all the hard work that is very visibile to others [1] https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/299-steps-in-the-right-direction https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/299...
latexr 4y ago
“In study after study you see that either children have no effect or they have a small negative effect. I do not know of a single study showing that people with children are happier than people without them.” https://youtube.com/watch?v=2EiV4-ClcIs&t=36m20s https://youtube.com/watch?v=2EiV4-ClcIs&t=36m20s It doesn’t end there, he‘s a parent himself and attempts to not only present but interpret and justify the data.
Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago
I love my kids and agree with some things you said, but I should point out that time feels way faster since I had kids. Our "just a blip" is _months_, which is a lot of time for a human being. And my "hobbies" were all shared with my wife, so I can still practice them, but they are all affected. Having two close by does help: they play a lot together. Hanging with your kids is beautiful, but at times I would like to use all my brainpower, rather than 10% of it. I can't do that meaningfully if I play with them. Either way, I don't regret having them, they are amazing. I love how they climb on you all the time. I love how they are attached to my wife. Trying to figure out how to maintain a good relationship in teenager years, I'm afraid it's really hard.

31337Logic 4y ago

Thank you. :-)

rjh29 4y ago

When I imagine taking kids to the park, or camping or reading to them, or playing with them it just seems like a chore. Is that something that magically becomes different if it's _your_ kid? With my niece and nephew I enjoyed playing with them for an hour or so, then I wanted to be left alone. I get the feeling parenting is a bad idea in general for people who love being alone for extended periods of time.

twoodfin 4y ago
When I imagine taking kids to the park, or camping or reading to them, or playing with them it just seems like a chore. Is that something that magically becomes different if it's _your_ kid? Yes, of course. It’s not likely magic, more millions of years of evolutionary biology. But boy it feels like magic. (FWIW, I’m also someone who enjoys long stretches of alone time. Still get to do it, if somewhat less frequently. Still enjoy it.)
mcrider 4y ago
It definitely does but not completely. You are probably going to be totally smitten with your kid and spending time with them, even if its something "boring" is going to be really enjoyable. Unfortunately, your kid can sometimes be a brat (or at least mine is sometimes, but I'd guess a lot are!) and then these activities that are good for them can feel like a chore. I definitely like having my own space and at least with one kid, I'm still getting plenty of it. But the time I spend with her is incredibly rewarding (most of the time ;)
jmcphers 4y ago
It becomes different -- but not better or worse. The truth is that taking kids to the park can feel like even MORE of a chore when it's your own kids, because you've had to do it every week, it has no novelty, and you would love just a few hours to yourself instead because you're a parent and you don't get much of that. The reason it's still better when it's your kids, though, is that it's an investment. Kids are a lifelong relationship. They outlive you. All that time you spend with them starts paying interest and dividends, the same as it does when you spend time with other people you love and spend time with. My oldest is 12 now and she's funny, insightful, and one of my favorite people to be with. The years I invested in reading and parks with her in the early years are being paid back with hours spent talking about our favorite books and going outdoors together. It's worth it.
flycaliguy 4y ago
One thing that might be hard to appreciate is how much, at least for me, having kids changed my personality. I’ve become a much more patient person. Spending extended periods of time with my kids almost has a meditative quality in which I’m living in the moment and absorbing my surroundings in a deliberate way. My son’s presence in his environment provides a fresh perspective that I can tune into and ride along with.
- notch656a 4y ago
  That's interesting. Kids made me much less patient, and also far more selfish. I have much less free time so I get absolutely frustrated if the remainder is wasted. I have far less money so I am loathe to give it to anyone in need or do much but hoard money at all costs lest the child need more $100 bills for the roaring cash fire they are. I have no time for friends so I have little incentive to be kind or cordial to others for the purpose of developing a relationship. My emotional capacity to care for others is drained by the child, so I have no empathy left over for others. Pre-kid me was far more patient, far more kind, far more generous, far more empathetic, and all around a much more pleasant and well rounded person.
  - nickd2001 4y ago
    Isn't that just that your patience / giving capacity is just being exhausted by your kid at the mo' ? No-one has unlimited capacity in that area. Maybe when the kid gets bigger, more independent, less demanding, you'll go back to how you were before? You might just have to apologise to some friends for having been cranky for a while? ;) Also don't underestimate how much capacity is drained by juggling work and kids. I think a lot of people who say kids are hard, really, their problem is work drains them too much. So, finding a more laid-back job, WFH etc, helps. I'm for sure much more laid back in the morning with the kids than I would be if I still had to rush out to the office. And reasonably laid-back about being interrupted from work to see the latest picture they've drawn or whatever, cos my work is not as stressful as some previous jobs
coryrc 4y ago
You get to choose what you do with your kids, to some degree. My cousin and his wife love sports, their kids are all in sports and they go to all the games -- they'd be doing that even without kids. I like walking and sneaking into construction sites, my kid likes walking and sneaking into construction sites because that's what we do.
peter422 4y ago
FWIW I have two children, aged 3 and 6 months, and I would say it is about accurate (for me) that the first hour is enjoyable and then the next 10 are less so. It's a chore that you are doing every single day. However, the older they get the less boring they are and I assume at some point I will get more out of the relationship. But I had the children so I gotta deal with what that entails and I'm comfortable with that. I went into this very willingly. But I absolutely have no judgement against people who don't want to have children... It might not be for you, I don't have any magical emotion that makes it less work, and there are many, many things I'd rather be doing.
- bcrosby95 4y ago
  As they get older you can increasingly share your hobbies with them rather than be a pure source of child-like entertainment. I have a 7 year old and two 4 year olds, and we: play video games, watch movies, go for hikes, climb trees, go swimming, play various sports, play dnd, play board games, and paint warhammer miniatures together.
  - peter422 4y ago
    Yes I do anticipate that happening, but it's no guarantee. And even still doing 3-5 years of very hard parenting work to get to that is a lot... And I didn't even carry the children which is another year of very hard work! I'm not saying that I'm not happy with my decision to have children, but if I didn't really want to have them this would be rough.
somekyle 4y ago
I imagine it varies, but from most people I know, it's the very definition of "labor of love". It's certainly a big time and effort commitment and sometimes you'd rather not, but there's basically nothing in life I care about more than my kids. And they can, in a moment, give me more joy or fulfillment than I'd find in a week in my pre-kids life. I'm someone who needs alone time, and it's really hard for me at times, but their wellbeing impacts my wellbeing more than my wellbeing does, they sorta naturally became my #1 priority in life, so anything but taking care of them to the best of my ability simply doesn't make sense to me.
2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
Playing with my nieces and nephews I found that it’s not hanging out that is a chore, but that they won’t always accept my years of experience as correct when I attempt to introduce them to the toys, games or shows that I grew up with. :P
hellisothers 4y ago
I like the garden metaphor for kids, works in a lot of situations. Like here, if somebody asked me to water/weed their tomato plants for a weekend I would not terribly enjoy it and if “having a tomato garden” was just that times 50 then forget it. But if you plant the garden and experience the joy of caring for the plants and the (literal) fruit of your labor it’s a different story.
WheatMillington 4y ago
I'm an introvert who enjoys alone time, and a parent of two. I agree with you on all your points, you're entirely correct. No, that stuff doesn't become magically enjoyable.
wil421 4y ago
I have a 3 year old, 17 month old, and a 3 week old. My oldest and middle child go bike riding with me and my bike trailer. They also go kayaking with my wife and I. It can be a chore at times but over all it’s not and very enjoyable. They have a shorter limit than us for doing things. It’s not a chore it’s a necessity. They are such a joy sometimes it’s unbelievable so you just grind it out. The lack of sleep is my least favorite part with the babies but it’s not so bad.
warner25 4y ago
I'll go ahead and say that you aren't wrong. I have four kids under eight years old. I often feel like I'm just trying to kill the hours until they nap or go to bed, when I can finally have some quiet time alone. I feel very guilty about this whenever I'm reminded that this should be the best chapter of life with my kids, and it'll fly by, and I'll miss it when it's gone. I'm not saying that I don't have moments when I gaze at my kids in awe and feel full of love (which does seem to be different when they're _your_ kids)... I'm just usually exhausted and need more alone time, as an introvert, to recharge. The article is right that "When kids are outside for lengthy periods of time they become engaged, contemplative, calm and happy. In other words, they don't drive you bonkers!" If we're inside our house, they fight and scream and cry and make a mess and break things and never leave me alone. If I take them outside, they can spread out and explore and the house stays intact (so I don't have to clean / fix it later). Sometimes at the park I can even read something or listen to a podcast / audiobook while they play.
FactolSarin 4y ago
I rarely take mine to the park for the reason you mentioned.... It's boring. I just tell my kids to go play outside. They're 7 and 8 and are each other's best friend. Just find something you and your kids enjoy and do that
irrational 4y ago
I love being alone for extended periods of time. I once went to a week long conference and at the end of the week I realized that I had not spoken to a single person the entire week, after telling the people at the conference check in desk my name. But, I love spending time with my kids. It doesn’t feel like a chore at all.
refurb 4y ago
I don’t know if it’s true for everyone, but it was for me. It’s night and day difference between looking after someone else’s kid and my own. I guess it’s the sense of responsibility that you are the main caregiver and how your kid turns out is pretty much up to you and your partner.
- jjeaff 4y ago
  Same for me, I never liked being around or babysitting young kids that much. But it is totally different with my own kids. And I have noticed that I don't avoid other people's young children quite as much now either because I have learned to appreciate their energy, happiness, and humor (both intentional and unintentional humor).
jahewson 4y ago
It’s the same with exercise. People say it’s a great lifelong persist but I tried it for an hour and it’s just awful.
Tade0 4y ago
Before becoming a parent I generally avoided kids. I had some vague plan about starting a family, but that was it. It wasn't enjoyable from the get go. But with time we started forming a bond and having our own little habits. Bottom line is initially you don't know this person so it's hard to expect from you to automatically have a great time. But as a child develops they become more interesting overall.

scandox 4y ago

I enjoy being a parent but my advice to people who ask if they should have kids is that you really have to want to have kids because all the benefits are intangible and all the drawbacks are tangible. People who say they don't want kids, usually mean it - whether they've identified their real reason or not.

knaekhoved 4y ago
People say they want or don't want a lot of things, but it turns out they're often really bad at predicting net utilitarian impacts. A lot of people who say stuff like "I don't want to have kids because I'm happier buying funko pops and video games" are probably just wrong about their counterfactual happiness level.
julianlam 4y ago
> all the benefits are intangible and all the drawbacks are tangible. That's quite well-said. I've heard it expressed many different ways but this one I think I'll appropriate :)
dragonsky67 4y ago
I'm not sure why there is a stigma to deciding to not have kids. It's not as if your decision is going to have much impact on anybody except yourself or the potential grandparents who may feel that they are missing out, but that is very much their problem. All this talk of "perpetuating the species" is so much crap... The species will get along quite well without everybody contributing their genetic material. At least those who decide not to have kids are making a thoughtful decision, many unfortunately can't or dont.
- Poppys 4y ago
  There are tangible problems with a low birth rate though, which western economies are experiencing now.
  - frontman1988 4y ago
    That's just a transitionary problem. Even just 50 years ago there were half of us as now. 99% of humanity's history has had less than 1 billion people. 8 billion people is way more than needed and it's showing it's ill impacts on the enviroment as well.

issa 4y ago

"forever" is very relative. If you have one kid, and a partner to raise them, then what you describe is very accurate. But if you have two kids spread out over a few years, then you can pretty much assume 15+ years of your life are going to be very kid focused. This is not a BAD thing! But go in with open eyes! And, most importantly, results will vary significantly. All kids are different. And factors like if you live close to family, are comfortable financially, etc will have a huge impact.

JamesSwift 4y ago
Agreed. I always say getting married means the previous phase of your life is now over. Thats not a statement on better or worse, its just that you've now transitioned to another phase. Its the same with kids. Pre-kid life is now over. This is a new, different phase.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  Interestingly enough, this advice is bordering outdated. In the US, recent estimates put children being born to unwed parents at around 40%. This varies by race and income- for example, since 1990 the rates for white parents doubled from 15 to 28%, whereas on the other end of the spectrum the rate went from 63 to 69% for children of black parents. Breaking down by economic, education and other levels follow more or less similar trends- big jumps at the low end of the range, small jumps on the upper end. Edit- another interesting tidbit, divorce rates are highest among those over 55; presumably, parents whose children are now adults are moving on, whereas younger parents simply aren't getting married in the first place.
  - rdtwo 4y ago
    It makes sense parents that don’t share the load equally drift apart. I see so many families where one parent gets all the hobbies and trips while the other gets to stay home or work on kids and Housework 24/7
Narkov 4y ago
So much this! Add in health issues to your list of "reasons why things can be different". It's ignorant to think that your experience with kids is how it is for everyone. Kids can be hard - very hard.

Ptchd 4y ago

I never wanted kids and I ended up being a stay-at-home parent... messed up my life pretty good...

deamanto 4y ago

Hey just wanted to say that I really appreciate this comment and it's an opinion I haven't seen shared before even though in hindsight it's obvious. I personally have chosen not to have kids - one reason is doomer level but the other is time and independence. I have a dog that is a relatively (to kids) minor responsibility but in my day to day life feels like the biggest responsibility, I compare that to having a kid which I would say is a lot more and I wouldn't want to take on as I've already experienced a dog and that is as far as I'd go. But while you haven't changed my mind, you have negated a lot of my feelings towards a previously thought "lifelong responsibility"

popularrecluse 4y ago
Well another thought is that the only way to revert this so-called doomerist path is to choose to have and raise kids with empathy for others and with care towards the natural world they've inherited. Because the people who don't give a shit ain't going to stop having them.
- gday2020 4y ago
  Raising them with good values doesn't mean that they will keep those throughout their life, unfortunately. Quite risky to bet on that.
  - maroonblazer 4y ago
    I have no data to support this but I'm willing to bet that the likelihood they do keep those values is significantly greater than the likelihood that they don't. So, a very low risk bet.
sshine 4y ago
I've heard having a dog is like having a kid that never grows up. In some ways they're always more independent of a child. In some ways they never will be.
hattmall 4y ago
Having a dog is legitimately more than a kid 90% of the time if it's an indoor dog you treat like a kid. It's different, but constant and the dog never becomes self sufficient. It's also more challenging to travel with them.

xvedejas 4y ago

I think the main thing that informs me personally is that I didn't enjoy spending time with my parents when I was a kid. I imagine those who want kids must have had a more positive kind of childhood experience and relationship with their parents.

aconsult1 4y ago
In my experience this isn't true at all. Having kids really is a blank slate and it's up to you to decide how you want to raise yours. I do a lot of things different than my parents did to me, including being more thoughtful about being a good friend, not just their parents. I didn't have the best experience with my parents either. Not that I hated them but they never felt like friends to me. My kids will decide how they feel about me when they get older but I'll do everything in my power to let them know that I'm genuinely interested in being friends with them. I'm sorry you didn't have good memories with your parents but I came here to say that this should not be an excuse to not having kids if that's something that you're considering.
- notch656a 4y ago
  Even if you want to be a different parent than your parents, it can be difficult to change the course when you don't have that experience to draw off of. You're both genetically and culturally the product of your parents, and naturally any perceived negativity about your parents has an influence that commonly pushes you towards that direction. It's not unusual to read stories of people who had abusive parents, that then went on to abuse their child, even though they never wanted to be that way. While we can make conscious choices, it's doubtful you have complete free will to separate from genetic and culture tendencies.
- xvedejas 4y ago
  I don't think it's an excuse to not having kids, but I do think generally I have yet to find an excuse to have kids. So far it doesn't interest me. But still, I do wonder whether there's a good reason for that.
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dubeye 4y ago

I have more of a 'when in rome' approach to kids. It's what humans tend to do, so I'll give it a go. Not everyone who goes on holiday to Rome has to do the tourist stuff though! But I'm not creative enough to work out what else to do...

conductr 4y ago

Love this comment wanted to also share my biggest regret in life is waiting to have kids. I became a dad at 38. All the nights out with friends, happy hours, sleeping late, etc. mean very little now but I’d trade the world to be able to spend more time on earth with my kid. Hopefully we maximize what we do have but, whatever it ends up being, it could have been more.

qwerpy 4y ago
Became a dad at a similar age and have the same regrets. Then again I met the right woman very late as well. There are some benefits though. Finances are well established and early retirement is within reach, so I have the freedom to quit any job that doesn’t respect my time. My kids will get a lot more time with their dad than many other kids will. The thing we need to do is to stay healthy and try to be energetic.

lamontcg 4y ago

I don't really like kids. I didn't really like kids when I was a kid. And that largely gets worse the older they get, up until they start pushing 30 or so.

kotlin2 4y ago
Obviously this doesn’t hold true for everyone, but your attachment to your kid has nothing to do with how you feel about kids in general.
- lamontcg 4y ago
  You start by saying you're not generalizing to literally everyone, but then you follow up by generalizing to literally everyone. You can state that "my attachment to my kid has nothing to do with how I feel about kids in general" but the way you've phrased it makes it generalized and you apply it to the generic you. Talking about "your attachment to your kid" reads very much like lecturing me about how you're telling me I'll feel.
  - kotlin2 4y ago
    I start by saying “Obviously this doesn’t hold true for everyone” which means I’m about to make a generalization, and generalizations, by the diverse nature of people, are unlikely to apply to every single person even if they hold true in a majority of cases.

WheatMillington 4y ago

I don't think I'm necessarily having the same experience as you.... my advice to people who aren't sure if they want kids, is DON'T. It's bloody hard, you sacrifice A LOT. Don't have kids unless you're very sure it's what you want. I have 2 kids under 6 and I feel like I just don't have any time for any of my hobbies any more. I leave for work first thing, come home in the afternoon, and haven't had any time for myself until the kids are down at 7.30, and I'm utterly wasted. Weekends are just chaos, yeah we can divide and conquer but that only goes so far. As for enjoying hanging around with kids.... I don't know what age that starts, but I'm 5 years and counting. Honestly I'm exhausted, and I'm not gonna lie, I have some regret about having kids when I see the child free people around me, and how they're spending their 30s.

tacoman 4y ago
Yes, spending time with little kids can be really boring, be present when it counts though. This period of life doesn't last forever so take care of your health and maintain your important relationships with whatever energy you can muster. Every time I look at pictures of my kids when they were younger I feel a tinge of regret for not being more in the moment.
- warner25 4y ago
  I feel the same as WheatMillington most of the time, but also feel the same as you when I look at pictures of my kids from the past few years. It's so conflicting.
  - deleted 4y ago
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  - klipt 4y ago
    "The days are long, but the years are short"
    - spockz 4y ago
      100% this. Be in the moment. Enjoy. Play. You can rest later. (When the kids are bigger and can do chores themselves. ;-))

dhdhhdd 4y ago

My kids are 5 and 2. I spend increasing amount of time with the 5 year old. Doing different projects, reading, math, teaching him how to read watch, talking about how stuff works. I don't know if it's less, it's just different.

fortylove 4y ago

Completely agree with this comment. Having two kids is the best thing that's happened to me in life. Sure it's hard, especially early on. But to see them grow and make the right decisions is a better feeling than any work project or hobby can provide.

throwaway754653 4y ago

Glad it worked out for you but I have to disagree 100% -- we have 2 kids (2 and 5) and it feels like they're only getting more time intensive as they age. Your anecdote about work made me laugh - my wife and I (both fully remote, WFH) have been dreaming of finding in-office jobs just to have more time away from the kids. I now relish my time at work, the only reprieve I'm able to get!

mlyle 4y ago
Not my experience at all. The problems get more complicated, but further and further apart. The need for minute by minute management evaporates.

throw0101c 4y ago

> 2) The sleepless nights and diaper changes are a mere blip on the scale of a lifetime with kids. You deal with it, then the kids grow up quicker than you think. The days are long, but the years are short.

dugmartin 4y ago
As a parent of an 15 and an 18 year old I have to agree - it’s also my go to phrase when I meet a parent of a younger kid. It’s hard but enjoy those years.

smesla 4y ago

Yeah but now I have to consider suicidal teenagers and climate change. I'll be lucky to live to 70, my (potential) kids, maybe 60, if the environment doesn't completely collapse.

rdtwo 4y ago
Climate change won’t affect you unless you are poor. If you are poor then being poor is a much more immediate problem.
- kelp 4y ago
  The wildfire smoke every year impacts millions of people in the west. Just this summer I was watching the Mosquito fire updates daily to see if we were going to have to evacuate. Fortunately it rained and prevented that. There were days where we had to huddle in one room with multiple air filters going to keep the air breathable. Couldn't really go outside at all. The AQI outside was well over 500 for days at a time. Not poor, and I'd say we were pretty impacted by it.
- adrianN 4y ago
  Climate change, even in the best case scenarios, is affecting everybody, not just the poor, just like economic growth affects everybody. I don't even want to think about the worst case scenarios.
SoftTalker 4y ago
At least your kids won't be eaten by lions (probably).

andsoitis 4y ago

> time-intensive parts of parenting don't last forever. Time is not just measured in times of hours, days, and years, but also in emotion and $$$.

allisdust 4y ago

The only time I regret having kids is when I see them suffer (even for small things like being down with flu). Much easier to suffer ourselves than see our own kids suffer. Really brings out the vulnerability in people.

SoftTalker 4y ago

You're not wrong, but your life never goes back to its pre-kid state. My kids are all adults. I still think about them every day, advise them, help them, worry about them. When my wife was pregnant with our first, an older co-worker said "your life will never be the same" and she was right.

sneak 4y ago

> The sleepless nights and diaper changes are a mere blip on the scale of a lifetime with kids. You're looking at what, 2-5 years of that? Per kid? Plus the huge time commitments for all of the other burdensome stuff that having kids entails, like school and transport and non-school education? 2-5 years out of a lifetime isn't much, but 2-5 years out of your 30s or early 40s is a gigantic percentage of your remaining not-old life. Unless you're a major biological outlier, you're not traveling on sporting vacations or backpacking trips or hallucinogen-fueled music festivals when you're 55. You don't get a lot of useful years remaining as a not-old person by the time you're old enough to responsibly have kids. It's a gigantic tradeoff and to minimize it like this is woefully shortsighted. It's fine if you like kids and didn't have actual plans to have fun in your 30s or 40s, but people with exciting lives will lose a lot if they suddenly have to dedicate almost all of their free time for 5 years to their offspring. This is also assuming that you have more than enough money to spend on kids and all of the other things you like to do in life. Even if kids took 0 time (which as we know they do not), this is not true for most people. > You actually like hanging out with your own kids. Some people do. Sometimes children grow up to be terrible, for reasons outside of direct parental control. Not every potential bad final outcome can be avoided with good parenting. Not everyone who thinks kids might be a good idea is capable of being a good parent. I personally find the idea of having huge, tremendously expensive, hugely time-consuming, unavoidable responsibilities like this in the middle of the prime of my life to be a living nightmare, for well-considered reasons which you seem to simply handwave away as trivial. Having kids and raising them well must necessarily become one of your primary goals in life, displacing others as there are only 24 hours in each day. We don't have a lot of time left.

zinckiwi 4y ago
I have 4 kids whom I love dearly, and I don't _regret_ having them. But often I wish I could be in a sci-fi movie where I get to live two lives simultaneously; one with, one without. It's not as much the excitement of my alternate life, or the reservation of more resources for myself (money, time, etc.) though that, selfishly, sounds nice. It's mostly the stress and ever-present burden of being a parent. I could do without it sometimes.

volkl48 4y ago

1) You may be good at this or have some situation in terms of support structures or lifestyle where this is particularly easy, but this is not at all what many parents I know/encounter express to me (as a person who's openly childfree). The combination of more than one kid and 2 parents working FT out of the home, seems to equal an absolutely exhausting long-term grind for many unless they've got a lot of family nearby who are both willing and able to share that load. 2) To be replaced by endless after school activities/sports, events, and other child-related things. Fine if you like them, but if not you're not seriously getting your free time back until maybe the teenage years. A decade+ in the prime of your life is not a "mere blip" to many. 3) You do (which is great - clearly you're the sort of person who should have kids). There are a lot of people who have children and....don't suddenly find an appreciation for children. The vast number of children in the world with a willfully absent, abusive, or simply disinterested and not loving parent stand as a clear counter-argument, and the statistics on child abuse/neglect are pretty awful. On the anecdotal side - It's pretty heartbreaking how many of those I grew up with (who had outwardly normal, upper middle class families) turned out to have those sorts of terrible parents and traumatic childhoods...and those are just the ones I know about. I'm thankful I didn't have that childhood, but a shocking number of children do. I think it's misleading to promote this ideal like it's just going to happen for everyone who has kids and leads to people who shouldn't have children having them and resenting them or worse.

MrPatan 4y ago
Why would I tell a childfree friend about the joys of parenthood? Who would do that? To somebody who's just Wrong on the Internet, though, I would happily say that it's not the most important thing. It's the only thing. Good luck!
jahewson 4y ago
I think you’re painting a pretty simplistic and distorted caricature of reality.
- volkl48 4y ago
  I don't think I am, at least speaking to the US, but if you've got a particular argument I'm open to hearing it. ----------- Just as some related examples to illustrate that there's a whole lot of children not growing up in some idealized life though: ~23% of children in the US live with one parent and no other adults in the household. ~40% of children born to married parents in the US will see those parents divorce before they turn 18. ~40% of children are born to unmarried parents. I don't know where to find what the rate for those parents splitting up is, but I'll assume it's probably not better than the married ones. 1/7 children experienced abuse or neglect in the past year, 1/4 will at some point in their childhood.

brnt 4y ago

People have made having kids into a Mission Impossible: as if the only way to raise them is to give them the most perfect time, education, fun, etc. There is a difference between understanding it is a bit of a commitment, that there are better and worse ways to do things, as is true for any worthwhile endeavor, and setting yourself up for failure by imagining you can do no less than fully plan out and control a perfect upbringing. Have a little faith in yourself, humans have done this for a while, without both knowledge we have now (which will help you) and unhealthy perfectionist culture (which can only stand in your way). I'm the last person to convince anyone to get kids, but, as in other parts of life, I object to the perfectionist path. If that's what's stopping someone: relax! It's a big deal, but not the mountain you imagine it to be. Also, you probably have no idea of the rewards. I didn't expect kids to be fun from basically day 1. To see them experiencing and learning from the very first days on is such a treat! Also, biology has prepared you with instincts that you don't know exist until you need them.

jollofricepeas 4y ago

You know what’s kind of weird? …When people say they can’t do any of their own hobbies because they have kids. I get it if you’re into kinky or extremely dangerous hobbies BUT… - I’ve always shared my hobbies with my kids. When I was really into making music, I gave my toddler at first Toca Music and then eventually their own iPad with GarageBand and we would just make songs together. - When I wrote apps, I taught them Scratch. I’d work on myself and they’d do their own kiddie stuff next to me. - Same with working out, I grab the weights while my kids do calisthenics and then we go jogging together. - We read books together. Sometimes the same ones or different ones. - We go out to eat and try different cultural foods. You name the cuisine my kids have eaten and probably love it from Armenian to Senegalese. Make your kids a part of your hobbies (don’t force it on them) and your lives will be more richer for it. Trust me ;)

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
This is good advice but you have to change your expectations. You’re not going to get the same kind of run with a 5 yr old as alone, for example.
- YeBanKo 4y ago
  This advice is great on paper, but hard to impossible to practise. I see some of my older friends can do it with their kids who are 8-12 years old, but there seems to be a very short period of time between being able to actually do something with them until they have their own interests and hobbies.
- novok 4y ago
  Put the 5 year old on your shoulders and make it twice the workout :p
  - BLKNSLVR 4y ago
    My daughter used to climb on my back when I did push ups for some additional resistance. She used to give me a light slap if I was taking too long between reps. Good times.

hzhou321 4y ago

It's not about the amount of time kids takes up in your life. It is about how kids changes your life forever. Your priority in life changes, then your life changes. I guess when kids leave us, we need relearn the life.

YeBanKo 4y ago

Diaper change and sleepless night with a new born are probably among the easiest things in parenting. I don't know how you manage to have hobbies or activities on weekends, unless your can engage them in your hobbies. Mine are too young for that.

DuckFeathers 4y ago

> young people who say they don't want kids because they think their personal lives will permanently halt the moment they have kids They say that because they know they can't trust their kids with abusive child care system or the abusive schooling system which creates people who perpetuate the abuse to give power to corrupt government and corrupt corporations. You can have as many kids you want and still have all the time if you don't intend to be responsible for them.

xani__ 4y ago

ookblah 4y ago

lol maybe you're seeing it with rose colored glasses... as someone seeing my friends all go thru this right now, for the majority it sure looks like their life is way more stressful and not in a good way. this trickles down into everything...work, marriage, etc. justifying it by saying it's not gonna last forever seems more like a copout, no offense. i maintain that you shouldn't have kids unless you really, really want them. your life goals will take a backseat and your marriage better be on solid ground.

gernb 4y ago

I'd be curious if this holds up just viewing my friends kids. It seems from the outside, some enjoy their kids, some don't. Some have kids who are generally pleasant to be around, some don't. I've always wanted kids but I of course imagine having the pleasant to be around kind. Not that I wouldn't do my best to see they come out that way but I'm sure most of the parents with unpleasant kids thought they were doing the right thing at the time.

rakoo 4y ago

They don't last forever... But they are still there. They still take time and energy, probably at a point in life where you can do absolutely everything but have to choose. It also has an impact on your health, because you can't live 3-4 years with short nights and not have an effect on you. It still costs money. It still takes up some of your nights to do something else. As a non-parent, and someone who doesn't want to be, you sound like someone saying "it's not so bad". Which it probably is, but I'm still not convinced the good outweighs the bad, and I probably never will

nonrandomstring 4y ago
> good outweighs the bad It's not that sort of rational choice. Choice can be an enemy of joy. For most of human history you just woke up one day and found you were a parent (no immaculate miracles necessary). Birth control and career centred lifestyles have changed that. And that's mostly good, at least for child welfare. But what if life were more arbitrary? I remember that strange study on happiness that followed the fortunes of one group of people who won a lottery, and another who had life-changing serious injuries. Fortune or misfortune could not account for their long-term happiness, because people are complex and adaptable. I think it's similar with parenting. Having children is both the worst and the best thing that can happen to you. Some days you wake up and think "You ruined my life. WTF am I doing?". Other days are filled with sublime ecstasy, feeling literally blessed with something you know is missing from other people's lives, and feeling eternally grateful. And those two feelings are not incompatible.
- rakoo 4y ago
  > It's not that sort of rational choice. It has to be. It's all nice and rosy to feel blessed by sharing your life with another human being, but it is a lifelong commitment, with a good chunk of time and money dedicated to it. If I look at the first link investigating income (https://www.investopedia.com/median-income-by-state-5070640 https://www.investopedia.com/median-income-by-state-5070640), I see that between 9% and 19% people are below or at the poverty rate in the US. Is it rational to have a child in this situation ? Children take focus and abnegation for education. Do you have the mental space for them ? Will you keep your cool at all time and never let anger get the better of you ? Do you have the support structure for helping you, the parent, when things go wrong ? Only people with comfortable lives, who can afford kindergarten, nannies or people-to-whom-you-drop-them-off, all the specific furniture, can say the choice is not that rational. But that's definitely not where most people are.

e-master 4y ago

I can relate to number 3 so much. Especially as kids get 4 years old and older it becomes a lot of fun to spend time with them. And it’s not even playing with them that I enjoy much, though building Lego or a puzzle is fun, but working with them on homework or music assignments or karate is so satisfying as you see them grow and you do see that your presence actually makes a big difference in their motivation when they approach some task.

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a_c 4y ago

I am in early 30s and have 2 kids. Didn't particularly want kids before but also not resistant of having. Absolutely the best decision in my life. The difficult part is that experience is hard to be shared. One can only tell other their own experience but other won't share the same experience. It is like seeing the color red, we sort of know what red feels like, but only sort of. Your red is never my red, and we will never know the difference. Every weekend is exhausting, yes. After work means another shift of work/chore, yes. They drip food all over the floor, the quibble with each other endlessly, they break everything in your house. Yes, yes, and yes. But it is joyful, it is satisfying, it is fulfilling, it is irrational. And I only get so much time together with them. Assuming 8 hours a day before turning 12 yo and maybe 12 hours a week from 12-18yo, that's about 4.5yr worth of time. 4.5 yr is really a tiny blip in our life. Treasure it while we can

chronofar 4y ago

> The sleepless nights and diaper changes are a mere blip on the scale of a lifetime with kids. You deal with it, then the kids grow up quicker than you think. Don't let the idea of the first few months/years define your entire decision for how you want to structure your family for the rest of your life. This is just a common feature of our perception of time not constrained to child rearing. Past years seem to have gone by quickly while the present moment seems to have an eternity in front it. It's also a common feature of our perception to rationalize past decisions as foundation of the current moment ("wouldn't trade it for the world") without really understanding the counterfactuals (are you sure you wouldn't?). Anyway I agree one should generally not let the experience of a few years of hardship detract from a life direction they may find fulfilling, but one should also not take the present for granted or be readily willing to subscribe to a miserable present in hopes that it blossoms into a worthwhile future. We're too bad at predicting the future to make those trades reliably well (though the aforementioned bias will (mis)lead us into thinking we're quite good at it). > You actually like hanging out with your own kids. I talk to a lot of people who are anchored to some negative experience they had 10 years ago babysitting for someone else's kids, as if that was representative of parenting life. It's not at all. At the end of the day, I actually rush to finish up my work so I can have more kid time. It's fun. You shouldn't be so ready to extrapolate your experience to the hypothetical future experience of others who are already skeptical. Your 10 year ago babysitting example sounds like a strawman anecdote. I know plenty of people who simply don't enjoy the company of children, their own included. There is of course a biological propensity to have an outsized affection and enjoyment of one's own children, but that is not universally applied to everyone, and not everyone finds endless joy in experiencing the world through the eyes of a child or playing the role of caregiver. Some certainly do and that's great, but it's not a universal truth.

vishnugupta 4y ago

I have two kids, one is independent second one is almost three but still needs my semi-supervision. Most of my time I spend working or pursuing hobbies. But outdoor time is still limited but I guess that too won’t be a challenge soon. I have seen a few folks who are without kids in their late 30s and 40s. While they are financially successful they seem sort of lost, without any purpose. For me, having kids gives me that anchoring purpose. It’s two new humans going through their own life journey and it gives me immense satisfaction that I am playing a small part of that and that I will live on in their memories, hopefully good memories :-)

A4ET8a8uTh0 4y ago

<<1) I still spend a lot of time with friends and can do most of my personal hobbies/activities on weekends. My wife and I are good at sharing the load. You don't need 2 parents watching kids 100% of the time. I think this is one of the biggest factors in terms of successful child rearing. I am relatively lucky in that aspect that we seem to make it work ( 9/10 -- we just had a longer conversation about it; clearly due to miscommunication some expectations were not conveyed openly enough ), but everyone's situation may be a little different and accommodation may be needed to find appropriate balance. << 3) You actually like hanging out with your own kids. I talk to a lot of people who are anchored to some negative experience they had 10 years ago babysitting for someone else's kids, as if that was representative of parenting life. It's not at all. At the end of the day, I actually rush to finish up my work so I can have more kid time. It's fun. Full agreement here. That was the second time I was reminded what vicarious really means.

wink 4y ago

> I still spend a lot of time with friends and can do most of my personal hobbies/activities on weekends. My wife and I are good at sharing the load. You don't need 2 parents watching kids 100% of the time. I'm not sure there's actually anything to discuss here, but you present anecdata and I'm happy it works out for you. I guess you've talked to several people who just seem to have a completely different experience. I'd say 3-4 out of 5 couples will typically wall off completely once they have kids and you can go from seeing them every week to... maybe 2-3 times a year. Mind you, I am not complaining - I am merely trying to observe and document. If you don't need both parents watching the kid(s)? Cool. Most couples I know won't split up for the evening so one of them can go out regularly to meet friends, they will both stay at home. This sometimes gets better when the kids are old enough so they can bring them, but I've seen that take 6-8 years. > Don't let the idea of the first few months/years define your entire decision for how you want to structure your family for the rest of your life Coming back t your point one - 10 years can be a long time, especially if it's about losing contact to friends. When they're gone your life may have actually changed, because now you need new friends, if you value that part. Again, please don't take this as any kind of blame - but it's not really hard to convey, and I've certainly simplified a lot of thing. You don't just stop talking to your friends because you now have kids, there are other reason - but my experience (and probably that of the people you want to convey things to) is that if your friends get kids, there's a good chance you'll lose access to them, and ultimately, lose them as friends - unless you live close and get kids at the same time.

xeonmc 4y ago

I like to think of it as starting a new Minecraft survival world. Time-intensive at the start, but that's you setting things up to gradually needing less and less attention.

dr-detroit 4y ago

astura 4y ago

>You actually like hanging out with your own kids My parents never liked being around me and made sure I knew it.

fullstop 4y ago

It all goes by in the blink of an eye. I've had my ~1,000 weekends with my oldest, and now she's at school and living on campus. My youngest is in high school and spends so much time in activities that I only get to see her for a few hours each day and a lot of that time is while she is doing homework. I'm now at a point in my life where I'm 100% debt free and I'm seriously considering cutting back and finding a low stress job which still offers decent benefits so that I can spend more time with her and give myself more time to spend on hobbies and with my wife. We had kids in our early and mid 20s, so I'll have an empty nest before I'm 50 and I don't regret it one bit.

jalk 4y ago

The Making Sense podcast episode with Russ Roberts[1] touched on these points with a reference to Charles Darwin who at some point made a pros/cons list of getting married. All the pros were rather boring practical things. Roberts argue that it was missing all the positive things that you don't see as a bystander (emotion based). The same goes for having children - you cant see the warm feeling inside that most parents still have for their kids despite all the hard work that is very visibile to others [1] https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/299-steps-in-the-right-direction https://www.samharris.org/podcasts/making-sense-episodes/299...

latexr 4y ago

“In study after study you see that either children have no effect or they have a small negative effect. I do not know of a single study showing that people with children are happier than people without them.” https://youtube.com/watch?v=2EiV4-ClcIs&t=36m20s https://youtube.com/watch?v=2EiV4-ClcIs&t=36m20s It doesn’t end there, he‘s a parent himself and attempts to not only present but interpret and justify the data.

Fire-Dragon-DoL 4y ago

I love my kids and agree with some things you said, but I should point out that time feels way faster since I had kids. Our "just a blip" is _months_, which is a lot of time for a human being. And my "hobbies" were all shared with my wife, so I can still practice them, but they are all affected. Having two close by does help: they play a lot together. Hanging with your kids is beautiful, but at times I would like to use all my brainpower, rather than 10% of it. I can't do that meaningfully if I play with them. Either way, I don't regret having them, they are amazing. I love how they climb on you all the time. I love how they are attached to my wife. Trying to figure out how to maintain a good relationship in teenager years, I'm afraid it's really hard.