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Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. I don't see any win besides a minor convenience. A lightning cable weighs alm

Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. I don't see any win besides a minor convenience. A lightning cable weighs almost nothing and it's not a big deal to have one around. As to lightning port limitations, I question whether usb-c will give average iPhone users any other advantage other than charging their phone. What are people gonna do with it other than charge their phones or transfer files? Feels like there's nothing to celebrate here. Just the EU using its influence to exert control over things that don't matter at all.

webmobdev 4y ago
> Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. It's because consumers have rights too. Standardising something actually fosters competition (healthy capitalism), increases profit (as standardising something often leads to lower manufacturing costs) while reducing costs for consumers (due to increased competition). It also reduces waste which is good for the environment. > I don't see any win besides a minor convenience. You will, when you have to buy another USB-C cable for your iDevice. I recently had to, for an iPad Air, and I was able to buy a good quality replacement USB-C cable (of similar spec) from Samsung for Rs. 750 (around $10) rather than paying Apple an exorbitant Rs. 2000 (around $20+). (Past experience with Apple cables has taught me that the higher price charged by Apple is no guarantee of better quality, and other non-Apple cables from reputed companies are often cheaper, more durable and last longer than Apple's).
- danielheath 4y ago
  This I really don't get. It reads as though you're saying that non-apple cables are cheaper and better, and also that mandating USB-C is valuable because it means you don't have to buy cables from apple.
  - kioleanu 4y ago
    Most certainly there are cables that are much better than the ones Apple is selling. I’ve been an iPhone/iPad user for more than 10 years and I no longer use Apple cables because they are gone in 6-8 months. This is an issue they had from the very beginning and which they utterly ignored. In contrast, I bought an usb-c cable from one plus 5 years ago, which is still in perfect condition. With the iPhones, I use cables from some company (forgot the name) that have lifetime warranty. I swear I could tow my car with those, _for the same price_
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      So... you can buy non-Apple cables for your lightning iPhone that work well. So... there's no problem?
  - webmobdev 4y ago
    Lightening cables have currently seen a price fall as Apple introduced USB-C devices. Yes, it's an automatic win for us consumers when regulation creates industry standard and fosters competition as that gives us the option to buy a product from multiple vendor. When something is standardised it is better for the whole industry, and especially for us consumers as it means we are not forced to buy something whose design and manufacturing is dictated by a single company. With lightening cables, Apple dictated the design and manufacturing terms and thus had an influence on its price even for non-Apple branded cables. With USB-C as a standard it can no longer do so.
- ramphastidae 4y ago
  What exactly is your USB-C cable example meant to illustrate? You were successfully able to buy a cheaper cable without any laws being passed. Seems like things are working fine as-is.
  - webmobdev 4y ago
    I benefited only because I bought a USB-C iDevice. Apple introduced USB-C support in some of its devices not because they wanted to but only because they realised that regulation would force them to in the future. Now that the regulation is in effect, Apple will be forced to drop support for its proprietary lightening cable and switch to supporting USB-C standards for all its devices. That's a huge win for consumers and the industry too.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  You can already buy non-Apple branded lightning cables. Apart from the cable that came in my iPhone 7's box many years ago (which still works perfectly and, excluding a little dirt, looks like new), all my other lightning cables are off-brand ones that cost much less than $20 apiece. More like 10. Some of them (Aukey brand) developed a wonky connection after a while, or only work on one side. The others (Amazon Basics) still work perfectly, after spending uncountable hours in the sun and rain powering my phone on my motorbike's handlebars. All this without any kind of law (I'm in the EU).
  - webmobdev 4y ago
    > You can already buy non-Apple branded lightning cables. Lightening cables are not a standard and thus Apple dictates terms even with non-Apple lightening cables. As lightening cables are not an industry standard the prices are influenced by Apple and artificially inflated (even for non-Apple ones). And they can only be used with Apple devices. (Lightening cables have seen a recent price fall only after Apple shifted to USB-C for some iDevices, as the market fears Apple is already preparing to switch to USB-C). USB-C cables will be even cheaper in the future as they are standardised, and since they can be used with multiple devices (due to such regulations) you need to buy fewer of them too.
    - vladvasiliu 4y ago
      I don't particularly follow Apple's products, so I don't know when they started selling USB-C devices, and hence what "recently" means to you. What I can say, is that in France on Amazon, USB-C cables and Lightning cables had similar prices when I last bought mine a few years ago. I usually compare Amazon Basics and Ugreen / Aukey brands.
    - jen20 4y ago
      > since they can be used with multiple devices (due to such regulations) you need to buy fewer of them too. I’ve seen this argument a few times “yay now I only have to take one cable on holiday”. Sure, unless you want to charge two devices at once while you’re sleeping, perhaps… it’s an unrelated argument to which connector is better.
jld89 4y ago
A LOT of less waste maybe ? It is very inconvenient and a hassle to have 5 different cables for 5 different devices. It is a waste of space, materials... The economic gains by volume continent wide should not be underestimated.
- kypro 4y ago
  Less waste after iPhone users all have to throw away their cables and buy new ones, presumably?
  - danmaz74 4y ago
    Straw-man argument, as the law won't require retroactively changing the port on existing iPhones.
    - donatj 4y ago
      Most iPhone users are going to buy new iPhones though, eventually. And when they do the lightning cables they already have are going to be useless and they'll have to replace every single cable they own. This literally just created a mountain of e-waste. We turned a hypothetical "what about when they switch" into a forced reality.
      - staringback 4y ago
        How long do you think the average lightning cable lasts?
        donatj 4y ago
        I mean depends. Sure, some people are hard on cables but I'm still using the original that came with my 2017 iPad I'm writing this on.
        CubsFan1060 4y ago
        I don't think I've had any decent lightning cable wear out. The super thin and cheap ones have, but I haven't had any from Apple or Anker wear out yet.
meibo 4y ago
I will definitely switch to iPhone as soon as they come with USB-C. It feels like they're just not doing it out of spite - I already have 20 USB-C chargers and power banks for all of my hardware. If you've been in the Apple ecosystem for years, no, it probably won't matter to you and will probably annoy you more than what it's worth because you now need separate cables to charge your mouse and your phone.
- Bud 4y ago
  Out of spite? What about it feeling out of spite to make this change for the tens of millions of users who have one or two or four sets of AirPods, and several wireless Apple keyboards and mice and trackpads, and various other gear, all of which uses Lightning? Some people need to remember that it's not all about them. And your USB-C chargers and power banks were and are perfectly capable of charging Lightning devices.
  - staticman2 4y ago
    I find this argument really funny since Apple already dropped lightning connectors on the newer IPADs in favor of USB C and already doesn't support lightning laptops. I guess you'll have to figure out how to handle the slight inconvenience that Apple is putting their IPAD customers and laptop customers through.
  - meibo 4y ago
    How are my USB-C chargers capable of charging lightning devices if they are USB-C? Can I buy a dongle for $90?
    - pb7 4y ago
      It's a common misconception for the less tech savvy but you can just buy a USB-C to Lightning cable for a few bucks. In fact, here's a 3-pack for $7: https://a.co/d/1WFoRGZ https://a.co/d/1WFoRGZ
    - mikysco 4y ago
      The standard charging cable Apple has supplied with new iPhones for years now has been USB-C to Lightning.
counttheforks 4y ago
Because apple refuses to play ball otherwise. Capitalism has failed and is now producing tonnes of unnecessary e-waste.
- gizmo 4y ago
  A 4 year old iPhone still works perfectly, but a $200 Android will find its way to a landfill way sooner. As a rule of thumb, appliances that last are better for the environment than cheap products. Apple is good at make devices that last. Nowadays all laptops can charge over usb-c (including Apple laptops, mind you!). Did anybody have to force Apple to do this? No, because charging technology improved so much that what used to be a big brick is now a pocketable GAN charger. Even the new magsafe laptops still support usb-c charging. And iPhones support wireless qi charging as well as Apple's proprietary magnet based wireless charging solution. Thanks to cheaper chips all devices can now negotiate how much power they need from the power brick. That's a big win, and this just wasn't possible a decade ago. We're in the final stretch of a 20 year trend towards universal chargers, and this EU mandate is totally unnecessary.
  - counttheforks 4y ago
    > A 4 year old iPhone still works perfectly, but a $200 Android will find its way to a landfill way sooner Not really, though. I'm using one and it's just fine. Nonsense aside... > Nowadays all laptops can charge over usb-c (including Apple laptops, mind you!). Did anybody have to force Apple to do this? No Yes. That's what the EU has been doing by talking about forcing the standardization. Dollars to donuts that apple would still be on their proprietary connector if not for that. > this EU mandate is totally unnecessary Disagree. Just look at the iPhones apple is still manufacturing, which they'll now be forced to change.
    - ksidudwbw 4y ago
      Android uses RAM as planned obselesence when they stop giving security updates to your old OS. The updated OS always uses more RAM and slows the phone down because of swapping to disk
Thaxll 4y ago
Do you know how many USB cable / charger people have on average?
- _trackno5 4y ago
  I don’t. Can you send me the research data where you learned about that?
EugeneOZ 4y ago
Data transfer speed is an important reason. iPhone 14 Pro can create huge videos and photos, and transferring them using Lightning is too slow.
- mimsee 4y ago
  Did the law mandate USB 3 or just the USB-C connector? You can still have USB-C connector with USB2 data rates.
  - amelius 4y ago
    Presumably, the thinking goes that vendors will use the opportunity to have a large bandwidth.
  - piperswe 4y ago
    iPhones don't have USB 3+ because the Lightning connector only has one differential pair for data. If iPhones had a connector with more pairs (USB-C), I doubt it would cost much of anything to add a USB 4 block to the SoC (which they already have on many Apple Silicon SoCs) and wire it up to the connector. Sure, there's more to it, but it's not rocket science.
- _trackno5 4y ago
  Sure, but how many people actually use that? For dedicated professionals I can see it making sense and nothing should prevent Apple from offering new iPhone Pros with usbc. But that’s not useful for an average person
- Bud 4y ago
  This isn't an important reason. There's no technical reason that Lightning could not have been updated to support higher speeds, and there's also nothing in this legislation that forces USB-C to magically use a high data rate.
Hamcha 4y ago
> Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. It's not, we're glad SOMEONE is forcing them to take this direction, but it's really sad (and potentially damaging) it had to come to this. > As to lightning port limitations, I question whether usb-c will give average iPhone users any other advantage other than charging their phone. What are people gonna do with it other than charge their phones or transfer files? Lightning itself is also used for audio (analog audio dongle) and video. The one benefit USB-C could bring to the table is higher transfer speed since Lightning is stuck on USB2 speeds, USB-C doesn't imply USB 3 but they might as well try.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  Is the USB2 speed a limitation of the Lightning connector, or is it that Apple just doesn't care to improve this? Because if it's the latter, as you say, there's no guarantee we'll see improved speeds because of the port change.
  - colejohnson66 4y ago
    The Lightning connector has 8 pins: 2 for power, 2 for ID/control, and 4 for 2 differential lanes of anything. Those 2 differential lines are used for all data transfer, and, IIRC, are bidirectional. So, in theory, the Lightning connector could carry USB 3.0's differential RX/TX lanes no problem. My guess as to why Apple hasn't implemented that is a lack of demand. Syncing/backup is expected to be handled on the device now, and USB 2.0 gives enough bandwidth for the majority of the other cases. And on iPads where more bandwidth might be required (eg. external data storage), they already have USB-C connectors supporting the higher speeds.
    - philjohn 4y ago
      Except the free tier on iCloud is miniscule so you're forced to stump up cash if you actually want to backup. Plus iCloud is stubbornly not E2EE.
      - 4y ago
hajile 4y ago
I hope this moves them to add USB-4/thunderbolt along with adding support for an ipad-style desktop when connected to an external monitor.
durnygbur 4y ago
> Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. Because the only balance the capitalism and free market introduce, is high balance on oligarchs' bank accounts.
mschuster91 4y ago
> I don't see any win besides a minor convenience. A lightning cable weighs almost nothing and it's not a big deal to have one around. The standardization is good for a lot of purposes: - cutting down on the number of cables and especially chargers. Seriously, it's amazing to have one single Anker 65W power supply and a single cable on vacation and it can charge everything - tablet, work phone, laptop, power bank, drones, Nintendo Switch. I 'member the dark times where each of these devices had their own cable and for some even own charger. - car and in-flight entertainment systems can now be relatively secure that USB-C is here to stay and be used for connectivity, which means less effort for this kind of appliance - if a cable gets lost or damaged, spare cables are cheap and plentiful, and they will also be available in a few years of time - devices can now be shipped without a charger and cable, which reduces package size and weight (and thus shipping efficiency, as more packages fit into a single container) and as almost everyone has chargers and cables, there is no need to produce as many chargers and cables before, which reduces resource consumption and eventually waste - when devices break down, chargers still can live on. Even a plain old 5W USB charger is enough to charge an e-cigarette. - interoperability between devices gets increased. No more micro-USB-to-micro-USB or whatever rare cables to interface, say, a DSLR camera with a phone to transfer photos, a plain USB-C cable is sufficient. > Feels like there's nothing to celebrate here. Just the EU using its influence to exert control over things that don't matter at all. Well... Apple refused for years to implement USB-C on the iPhone on their own, while the rest of the market converged first on micro-USB and nowadays on USB-C. The regulation was only established to force the hands of the largest player, which didn't like USB-C because it would destroy its lucrative MFi licensing - basically, rent seeking by preventing competition with a closed solution instead of an open standard. If there is one thing that drives EU legislation ideas, it is the convergence towards open and common, market-wide standards. This reduces the barriers to entry for small players and leads to more innovation as a result. Additionally, since the 500M citizens of the EU are a market bloc that no manufacturer can afford to ignore and for most things except automotive it isn't worth to set up different supply chains, our legislation can improve the lives of everyone on this planet - just take the RoHS directive, which led to lead solder being phased out worldwide and less lead ending up in the environment.
- rrwo 4y ago
dom96 4y ago
> What are people gonna do with it other than charge their phones or transfer files? It would at least save me from carrying one power brick + usb cable. Steam Deck (USB C), Switch (USB C), MacBook Pro (USB C) and iPhone is the only odd one out. This does make a significant difference to what I can take with me on holiday.
- Bud 4y ago
  That's just you, of course. For hundreds of millions of others, this cuts the other way: over a decade's worth of Lightning accessories and cables and docks are out there. Which is why the EU is just being dumb, here. They think they are accomplishing some amazing user-friendly enviro-friendly feat, but all they are really doing is making a lot of Lightning gear out there less useful. And all this to switch to a port that is substantially larger, clunkier, and has no real advantages for iPhone users. Which is why Apple hasn't bothered changing up til now. That, plus Apple actually values what its customers REALLY need and what REALLY ACTUALLY benefits them.
  - shawnz 4y ago
    How much time has to pass before the one-time cost of deprecating lightning is overtaken by the ongoing savings of having a single standard? Also consider that lightning would surely have eventually been deprecated one day even without this initiative.
    - Bud 4y ago
      - shawnz 4y ago
        How did lightning ever provide "ongoing savings"? It was simply an update of the 30-pin connector, it wasn't created to improve reusability or applicability to other kinds of devices. Also, I don't really appreciate the snark. It's just a connector.
moolcool 4y ago
> Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. Personally, I am happy to see that some governments still care about consumer protection.
- Bud 4y ago
  This doesn't "protect" any consumers from anything.
- acheron 4y ago
  Protecting me from using my existing cables? Gee, thanks.
  - flavius29663 4y ago
    > using my existing cables This won't apply retroactively, new iphones after X date will have to be shipped with USB-C
    - culturestate 4y ago
      > This won't apply retroactively No, but the parent’s point is still valid - many people own more than one lightning cable and/or lightning-enabled accessory (charging docks, stereos, etc) and as soon as you own an iPhone with USB-C, they’ll immediately become either useless or require yet another adapter. This already happened once when the iPhone switched from the iPod connector to Lightning, and people revolted for this exact reason.
      - yellowapple 4y ago
        > This already happened once when the iPhone switched from the iPod connector to Lightning, and people revolted for this exact reason. That was before USB-C existed (and micro-USB didn't have the same sort of accessory ecosystem that the 30-pin connector had). In this day and age, those same charging docks and stereos and such typically already support USB-C (because that's what most modern phones use, and it's kind of silly in this day and age to run two separate manufacturing lines for two separate SKUs instead of simply supporting both connectors in the same device), so if anything this would be the opposite of a reason to revolt.
fullstop 4y ago
In 10 years, when we've moved from USB-C to something else, iPhones in EU could still be stuck on USB-C because they are forced by law. In terms of progression, my phones since 2004 have gone: proprietary flip phone stuff, 30-pin iPhone, micro usb, usb-c, usb-c. Time will tell if USB-C sticks around, I suppose.
- staringback 4y ago
  Wow I Can't Believe My Android Phone Still Uses Micro-USB Since That Was Forced By Law!!! Please think about what you're saying for a moment
  - fullstop 4y ago
    You've missed my point, which was that USB connectors on phones have changed over the years and the EU is locking devices into C.
    - exikyut 4y ago
      In all fairness, why do Android devices not have to use Micro-USB now? If they were mandated to do so by law, what were the conditions that have presumably un-bound them now? Or are they all violating the Micro-USB law but being allowed to do so because it's obviously the common-sense thing to do?
      - fullstop 4y ago
        I'm not from the EU, but could they include a Micro <-> Type C adapter with the phone to skirt the mandate?
    - Xelynega 4y ago
      You missed their point. The EU "locked" devices into micro B but somehow they still managed to switch to USB-C when it became viable. How could they have switched if they were as "locked in" as you think?
manuelabeledo 4y ago
Apple is part of the USB-IF. They also have pushed USB standards to consumers since the iMac. Hell, Apple participates of every single industrial forum they can benefit from. Apple has moved on to USB-C for almost every other product they have. They know Lightning is old and insufficient, even for their iPad Air. The only reason why Apple keeps Lightning around is for phones and some portable accessories, and the revenue from those, and their certifications, is not something they are willing to dismiss. Technically speaking, if you want something as simple as a cable, you have to go through Apple and their MFI program. So here we are, with Apple holding the keys to every Lightning accessory, and also keeping a degree of control of USB-C. If anything, the EU is trying to keep Apple honest.
- misnome 4y ago
  > The only reason why Apple keeps Lightning around is for phones and some portable accessories, and the revenue from those, and their certifications, is not something they are willing to dismiss. Technically speaking, if you want something as simple as a cable, you have to go through Apple and their MFI program. The other way of viewing this is that by not switching (yet) they haven't created instant e-waste out of every cable and accessory manufactured in the past decade. USB-C didn't exist when they released the lightning cable, and they have clearly been migrating every other product over the past several years. Seriously, you don't need to invent a conspiracy for every single move Apple makes.
  - schmuelio 4y ago
    > The other way of viewing this is that by not switching (yet) they haven't created instant e-waste out of every cable and accessory manufactured in the past decade. Well no time like the present since time is linear and unless they're going to stick with lightning _forever_ then they'll eventually have to create a bunch of e-waste.
    - ragazzina 4y ago
      Not only this: the more they hold out, the more lightning cables they put in circulation.
shawnz 4y ago
Micro-USB was similarly enforced by law (but adapters were permitted with that regulation, thus allowing Apple to continue using proprietary ports) and that legislation had a clear and obvious positive impact for smartphone users. Don't you recall the days when every single manufacturer had a terrible proprietary connector? I think that enforcement was one of the best examples of a regulatory win in the technology sector in recent times. This is simply an attempt to strengthen that regulation and update it to a modern standard.
pif 4y ago
> the EU using its influence to exert control over things that don't matter at all. If it doesn't matter at all, why is Apple still stubbornly refusing to adapt?
- timbit42 4y ago
  Whatever the reason is, it's not for the environment.
pif 4y ago
> Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. I'm sorry that we need a law to instil some common sense into some managers' thick skulls. But I'm happy that EU is showing that in, a sane democracy, no huge corporation can force its will on the people.
onion2k 4y ago
Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. Having unified, standard cables and power bricks means more reuse, which reduces waste and cost. It means someone switching from Android to iPhone or vice versa doesn't need to replicate all their cabling. It means users can buy a third party cable without paying Apple for a licence or a patent. These are all good things.
woliveirajr 4y ago
Imagine a World where your appliances just work in some sockets and not in others. Where the tires of your car can just be bought from one supplier because it was limited by the car manufacturer. Your toaster just accepts some kind of bread. Your pencil can't be sharpned except with one specific equipament. Your mechanical pencil can use just one kind of pencil lead because it has some specific size. And now imagine a step further, where all cars, mechanical pencils, toasters, wall sockets... everything is disposable because some small detail or component has just one supplier. Imagine how much you'll spend to have things, and how much you'll have to throw away when any small thing of it gets broken.
- enriquec 4y ago
  and literally none of that has happened with no mandates. What a dumb argument. Now the government (that creates no value) now gets credit for "preventing" fictional "horrors" like proprietary bread? statists guna state. seems like some of europe just looooves being told what to do like children
  - fomine3 4y ago
    EU shouldn't do anything if Apple is good
blitzar 4y ago
> Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. School shootings - why do we have to enforce not commiting school shootings with the stupid law, surely everyone can get together and agreee murdering a 10 year old for fun is evil and just not do it?
- rufusroflpunch 4y ago
  Kind of a ridiculous comparison. If you absolutely must compare this to school shootings, compare it this way: Should a national government mandate only one method of security that every school must implement, or allow states/provinces/districts to experiment with what works for them? Even if the national government improves security in the short term, there is a strong possibility that the bureaucracy of national government's slowness to adapt will cause security to be worse in the long term.
permo-w 4y ago
>Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me this idea that it is somehow a bad thing to force mega-corporations to do things that are good for society. it's so widespread and yet - short of actual communism - I have literally never seen any evidence of public action against mega-corporate interests resulting in damage to society as a whole, beyond the inevitable political lobbying and media corruption that ensues is it any surprise that entities whose entire existence has been justified by clever storytelling (i.e. marketing) have been successful at convincing people that rules for them are a bad thing, while rules for you on the street are perfectly fine and actually good? people act like these mega-corps are weak, soft little babies that need to be treated with kid gloves. "no, but what if this law could do that to them? but what if this law means they make 0.1% less profit this year?". I absolutely understand this kind of reticence with actual babies, or individual people, or small-to-medium-sized businesses, but it makes me angry that people are so reluctant to act against these unaccountable mega-entities. it is hamstringing society
NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
>I don't see any win besides a minor convenience. A minor inconvenience multiplied by the number of smartphones (7.33 billion) is not a minor problem. It's not that it's a problem on the individual level, it's that we're roughly doubling the number of cables needed and halving their utilization at the same time. Yes I know android is more popular, but the issue is the two different cables needed. https://www.bankmycell.com/blog/how-many-phones-are-in-the-world https://www.bankmycell.com/blog/how-many-phones-are-in-the-w...

webmobdev 4y ago

> Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. It's because consumers have rights too. Standardising something actually fosters competition (healthy capitalism), increases profit (as standardising something often leads to lower manufacturing costs) while reducing costs for consumers (due to increased competition). It also reduces waste which is good for the environment. > I don't see any win besides a minor convenience. You will, when you have to buy another USB-C cable for your iDevice. I recently had to, for an iPad Air, and I was able to buy a good quality replacement USB-C cable (of similar spec) from Samsung for Rs. 750 (around $10) rather than paying Apple an exorbitant Rs. 2000 (around $20+). (Past experience with Apple cables has taught me that the higher price charged by Apple is no guarantee of better quality, and other non-Apple cables from reputed companies are often cheaper, more durable and last longer than Apple's).

danielheath 4y ago
This I really don't get. It reads as though you're saying that non-apple cables are cheaper and better, and also that mandating USB-C is valuable because it means you don't have to buy cables from apple.
- kioleanu 4y ago
  Most certainly there are cables that are much better than the ones Apple is selling. I’ve been an iPhone/iPad user for more than 10 years and I no longer use Apple cables because they are gone in 6-8 months. This is an issue they had from the very beginning and which they utterly ignored. In contrast, I bought an usb-c cable from one plus 5 years ago, which is still in perfect condition. With the iPhones, I use cables from some company (forgot the name) that have lifetime warranty. I swear I could tow my car with those, _for the same price_
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    So... you can buy non-Apple cables for your lightning iPhone that work well. So... there's no problem?
- webmobdev 4y ago
  Lightening cables have currently seen a price fall as Apple introduced USB-C devices. Yes, it's an automatic win for us consumers when regulation creates industry standard and fosters competition as that gives us the option to buy a product from multiple vendor. When something is standardised it is better for the whole industry, and especially for us consumers as it means we are not forced to buy something whose design and manufacturing is dictated by a single company. With lightening cables, Apple dictated the design and manufacturing terms and thus had an influence on its price even for non-Apple branded cables. With USB-C as a standard it can no longer do so.
ramphastidae 4y ago
What exactly is your USB-C cable example meant to illustrate? You were successfully able to buy a cheaper cable without any laws being passed. Seems like things are working fine as-is.
- webmobdev 4y ago
  I benefited only because I bought a USB-C iDevice. Apple introduced USB-C support in some of its devices not because they wanted to but only because they realised that regulation would force them to in the future. Now that the regulation is in effect, Apple will be forced to drop support for its proprietary lightening cable and switch to supporting USB-C standards for all its devices. That's a huge win for consumers and the industry too.
vladvasiliu 4y ago
You can already buy non-Apple branded lightning cables. Apart from the cable that came in my iPhone 7's box many years ago (which still works perfectly and, excluding a little dirt, looks like new), all my other lightning cables are off-brand ones that cost much less than $20 apiece. More like 10. Some of them (Aukey brand) developed a wonky connection after a while, or only work on one side. The others (Amazon Basics) still work perfectly, after spending uncountable hours in the sun and rain powering my phone on my motorbike's handlebars. All this without any kind of law (I'm in the EU).
- webmobdev 4y ago
  > You can already buy non-Apple branded lightning cables. Lightening cables are not a standard and thus Apple dictates terms even with non-Apple lightening cables. As lightening cables are not an industry standard the prices are influenced by Apple and artificially inflated (even for non-Apple ones). And they can only be used with Apple devices. (Lightening cables have seen a recent price fall only after Apple shifted to USB-C for some iDevices, as the market fears Apple is already preparing to switch to USB-C). USB-C cables will be even cheaper in the future as they are standardised, and since they can be used with multiple devices (due to such regulations) you need to buy fewer of them too.
  - vladvasiliu 4y ago
    I don't particularly follow Apple's products, so I don't know when they started selling USB-C devices, and hence what "recently" means to you. What I can say, is that in France on Amazon, USB-C cables and Lightning cables had similar prices when I last bought mine a few years ago. I usually compare Amazon Basics and Ugreen / Aukey brands.
  - jen20 4y ago
    > since they can be used with multiple devices (due to such regulations) you need to buy fewer of them too. I’ve seen this argument a few times “yay now I only have to take one cable on holiday”. Sure, unless you want to charge two devices at once while you’re sleeping, perhaps… it’s an unrelated argument to which connector is better.

jld89 4y ago

A LOT of less waste maybe ? It is very inconvenient and a hassle to have 5 different cables for 5 different devices. It is a waste of space, materials... The economic gains by volume continent wide should not be underestimated.

kypro 4y ago
Less waste after iPhone users all have to throw away their cables and buy new ones, presumably?
- danmaz74 4y ago
  Straw-man argument, as the law won't require retroactively changing the port on existing iPhones.
  - donatj 4y ago
    Most iPhone users are going to buy new iPhones though, eventually. And when they do the lightning cables they already have are going to be useless and they'll have to replace every single cable they own. This literally just created a mountain of e-waste. We turned a hypothetical "what about when they switch" into a forced reality.
    - staringback 4y ago
      How long do you think the average lightning cable lasts?
      - donatj 4y ago
        I mean depends. Sure, some people are hard on cables but I'm still using the original that came with my 2017 iPad I'm writing this on.
        CubsFan1060 4y ago
        I don't think I've had any decent lightning cable wear out. The super thin and cheap ones have, but I haven't had any from Apple or Anker wear out yet.

meibo 4y ago

I will definitely switch to iPhone as soon as they come with USB-C. It feels like they're just not doing it out of spite - I already have 20 USB-C chargers and power banks for all of my hardware. If you've been in the Apple ecosystem for years, no, it probably won't matter to you and will probably annoy you more than what it's worth because you now need separate cables to charge your mouse and your phone.

Bud 4y ago
Out of spite? What about it feeling out of spite to make this change for the tens of millions of users who have one or two or four sets of AirPods, and several wireless Apple keyboards and mice and trackpads, and various other gear, all of which uses Lightning? Some people need to remember that it's not all about them. And your USB-C chargers and power banks were and are perfectly capable of charging Lightning devices.
- staticman2 4y ago
  I find this argument really funny since Apple already dropped lightning connectors on the newer IPADs in favor of USB C and already doesn't support lightning laptops. I guess you'll have to figure out how to handle the slight inconvenience that Apple is putting their IPAD customers and laptop customers through.
- meibo 4y ago
  How are my USB-C chargers capable of charging lightning devices if they are USB-C? Can I buy a dongle for $90?
  - pb7 4y ago
    It's a common misconception for the less tech savvy but you can just buy a USB-C to Lightning cable for a few bucks. In fact, here's a 3-pack for $7: https://a.co/d/1WFoRGZ https://a.co/d/1WFoRGZ
  - mikysco 4y ago
    The standard charging cable Apple has supplied with new iPhones for years now has been USB-C to Lightning.

counttheforks 4y ago

Because apple refuses to play ball otherwise. Capitalism has failed and is now producing tonnes of unnecessary e-waste.

gizmo 4y ago
A 4 year old iPhone still works perfectly, but a $200 Android will find its way to a landfill way sooner. As a rule of thumb, appliances that last are better for the environment than cheap products. Apple is good at make devices that last. Nowadays all laptops can charge over usb-c (including Apple laptops, mind you!). Did anybody have to force Apple to do this? No, because charging technology improved so much that what used to be a big brick is now a pocketable GAN charger. Even the new magsafe laptops still support usb-c charging. And iPhones support wireless qi charging as well as Apple's proprietary magnet based wireless charging solution. Thanks to cheaper chips all devices can now negotiate how much power they need from the power brick. That's a big win, and this just wasn't possible a decade ago. We're in the final stretch of a 20 year trend towards universal chargers, and this EU mandate is totally unnecessary.
- counttheforks 4y ago
  > A 4 year old iPhone still works perfectly, but a $200 Android will find its way to a landfill way sooner Not really, though. I'm using one and it's just fine. Nonsense aside... > Nowadays all laptops can charge over usb-c (including Apple laptops, mind you!). Did anybody have to force Apple to do this? No Yes. That's what the EU has been doing by talking about forcing the standardization. Dollars to donuts that apple would still be on their proprietary connector if not for that. > this EU mandate is totally unnecessary Disagree. Just look at the iPhones apple is still manufacturing, which they'll now be forced to change.
  - ksidudwbw 4y ago
    Android uses RAM as planned obselesence when they stop giving security updates to your old OS. The updated OS always uses more RAM and slows the phone down because of swapping to disk

Thaxll 4y ago

Do you know how many USB cable / charger people have on average?

_trackno5 4y ago
I don’t. Can you send me the research data where you learned about that?

EugeneOZ 4y ago

Data transfer speed is an important reason. iPhone 14 Pro can create huge videos and photos, and transferring them using Lightning is too slow.

mimsee 4y ago
Did the law mandate USB 3 or just the USB-C connector? You can still have USB-C connector with USB2 data rates.
- amelius 4y ago
  Presumably, the thinking goes that vendors will use the opportunity to have a large bandwidth.
- piperswe 4y ago
  iPhones don't have USB 3+ because the Lightning connector only has one differential pair for data. If iPhones had a connector with more pairs (USB-C), I doubt it would cost much of anything to add a USB 4 block to the SoC (which they already have on many Apple Silicon SoCs) and wire it up to the connector. Sure, there's more to it, but it's not rocket science.
_trackno5 4y ago
Sure, but how many people actually use that? For dedicated professionals I can see it making sense and nothing should prevent Apple from offering new iPhone Pros with usbc. But that’s not useful for an average person
Bud 4y ago
This isn't an important reason. There's no technical reason that Lightning could not have been updated to support higher speeds, and there's also nothing in this legislation that forces USB-C to magically use a high data rate.

Hamcha 4y ago

> Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. It's not, we're glad SOMEONE is forcing them to take this direction, but it's really sad (and potentially damaging) it had to come to this. > As to lightning port limitations, I question whether usb-c will give average iPhone users any other advantage other than charging their phone. What are people gonna do with it other than charge their phones or transfer files? Lightning itself is also used for audio (analog audio dongle) and video. The one benefit USB-C could bring to the table is higher transfer speed since Lightning is stuck on USB2 speeds, USB-C doesn't imply USB 3 but they might as well try.

vladvasiliu 4y ago
Is the USB2 speed a limitation of the Lightning connector, or is it that Apple just doesn't care to improve this? Because if it's the latter, as you say, there's no guarantee we'll see improved speeds because of the port change.
- colejohnson66 4y ago
  The Lightning connector has 8 pins: 2 for power, 2 for ID/control, and 4 for 2 differential lanes of anything. Those 2 differential lines are used for all data transfer, and, IIRC, are bidirectional. So, in theory, the Lightning connector could carry USB 3.0's differential RX/TX lanes no problem. My guess as to why Apple hasn't implemented that is a lack of demand. Syncing/backup is expected to be handled on the device now, and USB 2.0 gives enough bandwidth for the majority of the other cases. And on iPads where more bandwidth might be required (eg. external data storage), they already have USB-C connectors supporting the higher speeds.
  - philjohn 4y ago
    Except the free tier on iCloud is miniscule so you're forced to stump up cash if you actually want to backup. Plus iCloud is stubbornly not E2EE.
    - 4y ago

hajile 4y ago

I hope this moves them to add USB-4/thunderbolt along with adding support for an ipad-style desktop when connected to an external monitor.

durnygbur 4y ago

> Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. Because the only balance the capitalism and free market introduce, is high balance on oligarchs' bank accounts.

mschuster91 4y ago

> I don't see any win besides a minor convenience. A lightning cable weighs almost nothing and it's not a big deal to have one around. The standardization is good for a lot of purposes: - cutting down on the number of cables and especially chargers. Seriously, it's amazing to have one single Anker 65W power supply and a single cable on vacation and it can charge everything - tablet, work phone, laptop, power bank, drones, Nintendo Switch. I 'member the dark times where each of these devices had their own cable and for some even own charger. - car and in-flight entertainment systems can now be relatively secure that USB-C is here to stay and be used for connectivity, which means less effort for this kind of appliance - if a cable gets lost or damaged, spare cables are cheap and plentiful, and they will also be available in a few years of time - devices can now be shipped without a charger and cable, which reduces package size and weight (and thus shipping efficiency, as more packages fit into a single container) and as almost everyone has chargers and cables, there is no need to produce as many chargers and cables before, which reduces resource consumption and eventually waste - when devices break down, chargers still can live on. Even a plain old 5W USB charger is enough to charge an e-cigarette. - interoperability between devices gets increased. No more micro-USB-to-micro-USB or whatever rare cables to interface, say, a DSLR camera with a phone to transfer photos, a plain USB-C cable is sufficient. > Feels like there's nothing to celebrate here. Just the EU using its influence to exert control over things that don't matter at all. Well... Apple refused for years to implement USB-C on the iPhone on their own, while the rest of the market converged first on micro-USB and nowadays on USB-C. The regulation was only established to force the hands of the largest player, which didn't like USB-C because it would destroy its lucrative MFi licensing - basically, rent seeking by preventing competition with a closed solution instead of an open standard. If there is one thing that drives EU legislation ideas, it is the convergence towards open and common, market-wide standards. This reduces the barriers to entry for small players and leads to more innovation as a result. Additionally, since the 500M citizens of the EU are a market bloc that no manufacturer can afford to ignore and for most things except automotive it isn't worth to set up different supply chains, our legislation can improve the lives of everyone on this planet - just take the RoHS directive, which led to lead solder being phased out worldwide and less lead ending up in the environment.

rrwo 4y ago

dom96 4y ago

> What are people gonna do with it other than charge their phones or transfer files? It would at least save me from carrying one power brick + usb cable. Steam Deck (USB C), Switch (USB C), MacBook Pro (USB C) and iPhone is the only odd one out. This does make a significant difference to what I can take with me on holiday.

Bud 4y ago
That's just you, of course. For hundreds of millions of others, this cuts the other way: over a decade's worth of Lightning accessories and cables and docks are out there. Which is why the EU is just being dumb, here. They think they are accomplishing some amazing user-friendly enviro-friendly feat, but all they are really doing is making a lot of Lightning gear out there less useful. And all this to switch to a port that is substantially larger, clunkier, and has no real advantages for iPhone users. Which is why Apple hasn't bothered changing up til now. That, plus Apple actually values what its customers REALLY need and what REALLY ACTUALLY benefits them.
- shawnz 4y ago
  How much time has to pass before the one-time cost of deprecating lightning is overtaken by the ongoing savings of having a single standard? Also consider that lightning would surely have eventually been deprecated one day even without this initiative.
  - Bud 4y ago
    - shawnz 4y ago
      How did lightning ever provide "ongoing savings"? It was simply an update of the 30-pin connector, it wasn't created to improve reusability or applicability to other kinds of devices. Also, I don't really appreciate the snark. It's just a connector.

moolcool 4y ago

> Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. Personally, I am happy to see that some governments still care about consumer protection.

Bud 4y ago
This doesn't "protect" any consumers from anything.
acheron 4y ago
Protecting me from using my existing cables? Gee, thanks.
- flavius29663 4y ago
  > using my existing cables This won't apply retroactively, new iphones after X date will have to be shipped with USB-C
  - culturestate 4y ago
    > This won't apply retroactively No, but the parent’s point is still valid - many people own more than one lightning cable and/or lightning-enabled accessory (charging docks, stereos, etc) and as soon as you own an iPhone with USB-C, they’ll immediately become either useless or require yet another adapter. This already happened once when the iPhone switched from the iPod connector to Lightning, and people revolted for this exact reason.
    - yellowapple 4y ago
      > This already happened once when the iPhone switched from the iPod connector to Lightning, and people revolted for this exact reason. That was before USB-C existed (and micro-USB didn't have the same sort of accessory ecosystem that the 30-pin connector had). In this day and age, those same charging docks and stereos and such typically already support USB-C (because that's what most modern phones use, and it's kind of silly in this day and age to run two separate manufacturing lines for two separate SKUs instead of simply supporting both connectors in the same device), so if anything this would be the opposite of a reason to revolt.

fullstop 4y ago

In 10 years, when we've moved from USB-C to something else, iPhones in EU could still be stuck on USB-C because they are forced by law. In terms of progression, my phones since 2004 have gone: proprietary flip phone stuff, 30-pin iPhone, micro usb, usb-c, usb-c. Time will tell if USB-C sticks around, I suppose.

staringback 4y ago
Wow I Can't Believe My Android Phone Still Uses Micro-USB Since That Was Forced By Law!!! Please think about what you're saying for a moment
- fullstop 4y ago
  You've missed my point, which was that USB connectors on phones have changed over the years and the EU is locking devices into C.
  - exikyut 4y ago
    In all fairness, why do Android devices not have to use Micro-USB now? If they were mandated to do so by law, what were the conditions that have presumably un-bound them now? Or are they all violating the Micro-USB law but being allowed to do so because it's obviously the common-sense thing to do?
    - fullstop 4y ago
      I'm not from the EU, but could they include a Micro <-> Type C adapter with the phone to skirt the mandate?
  - Xelynega 4y ago
    You missed their point. The EU "locked" devices into micro B but somehow they still managed to switch to USB-C when it became viable. How could they have switched if they were as "locked in" as you think?

manuelabeledo 4y ago

Apple is part of the USB-IF. They also have pushed USB standards to consumers since the iMac. Hell, Apple participates of every single industrial forum they can benefit from. Apple has moved on to USB-C for almost every other product they have. They know Lightning is old and insufficient, even for their iPad Air. The only reason why Apple keeps Lightning around is for phones and some portable accessories, and the revenue from those, and their certifications, is not something they are willing to dismiss. Technically speaking, if you want something as simple as a cable, you have to go through Apple and their MFI program. So here we are, with Apple holding the keys to every Lightning accessory, and also keeping a degree of control of USB-C. If anything, the EU is trying to keep Apple honest.

misnome 4y ago
> The only reason why Apple keeps Lightning around is for phones and some portable accessories, and the revenue from those, and their certifications, is not something they are willing to dismiss. Technically speaking, if you want something as simple as a cable, you have to go through Apple and their MFI program. The other way of viewing this is that by not switching (yet) they haven't created instant e-waste out of every cable and accessory manufactured in the past decade. USB-C didn't exist when they released the lightning cable, and they have clearly been migrating every other product over the past several years. Seriously, you don't need to invent a conspiracy for every single move Apple makes.
- schmuelio 4y ago
  > The other way of viewing this is that by not switching (yet) they haven't created instant e-waste out of every cable and accessory manufactured in the past decade. Well no time like the present since time is linear and unless they're going to stick with lightning _forever_ then they'll eventually have to create a bunch of e-waste.
  - ragazzina 4y ago
    Not only this: the more they hold out, the more lightning cables they put in circulation.

shawnz 4y ago

Micro-USB was similarly enforced by law (but adapters were permitted with that regulation, thus allowing Apple to continue using proprietary ports) and that legislation had a clear and obvious positive impact for smartphone users. Don't you recall the days when every single manufacturer had a terrible proprietary connector? I think that enforcement was one of the best examples of a regulatory win in the technology sector in recent times. This is simply an attempt to strengthen that regulation and update it to a modern standard.

pif 4y ago

> the EU using its influence to exert control over things that don't matter at all. If it doesn't matter at all, why is Apple still stubbornly refusing to adapt?

timbit42 4y ago
Whatever the reason is, it's not for the environment.

pif 4y ago

> Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. I'm sorry that we need a law to instil some common sense into some managers' thick skulls. But I'm happy that EU is showing that in, a sane democracy, no huge corporation can force its will on the people.

onion2k 4y ago

Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. Having unified, standard cables and power bricks means more reuse, which reduces waste and cost. It means someone switching from Android to iPhone or vice versa doesn't need to replicate all their cabling. It means users can buy a third party cable without paying Apple for a licence or a patent. These are all good things.

woliveirajr 4y ago

Imagine a World where your appliances just work in some sockets and not in others. Where the tires of your car can just be bought from one supplier because it was limited by the car manufacturer. Your toaster just accepts some kind of bread. Your pencil can't be sharpned except with one specific equipament. Your mechanical pencil can use just one kind of pencil lead because it has some specific size. And now imagine a step further, where all cars, mechanical pencils, toasters, wall sockets... everything is disposable because some small detail or component has just one supplier. Imagine how much you'll spend to have things, and how much you'll have to throw away when any small thing of it gets broken.

enriquec 4y ago
and literally none of that has happened with no mandates. What a dumb argument. Now the government (that creates no value) now gets credit for "preventing" fictional "horrors" like proprietary bread? statists guna state. seems like some of europe just looooves being told what to do like children
- fomine3 4y ago
  EU shouldn't do anything if Apple is good

blitzar 4y ago

> Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me. School shootings - why do we have to enforce not commiting school shootings with the stupid law, surely everyone can get together and agreee murdering a 10 year old for fun is evil and just not do it?

rufusroflpunch 4y ago
Kind of a ridiculous comparison. If you absolutely must compare this to school shootings, compare it this way: Should a national government mandate only one method of security that every school must implement, or allow states/provinces/districts to experiment with what works for them? Even if the national government improves security in the short term, there is a strong possibility that the bureaucracy of national government's slowness to adapt will cause security to be worse in the long term.

permo-w 4y ago

>Why do people think it is a good thing to have this enforced by law is beyond me this idea that it is somehow a bad thing to force mega-corporations to do things that are good for society. it's so widespread and yet - short of actual communism - I have literally never seen any evidence of public action against mega-corporate interests resulting in damage to society as a whole, beyond the inevitable political lobbying and media corruption that ensues is it any surprise that entities whose entire existence has been justified by clever storytelling (i.e. marketing) have been successful at convincing people that rules for them are a bad thing, while rules for you on the street are perfectly fine and actually good? people act like these mega-corps are weak, soft little babies that need to be treated with kid gloves. "no, but what if this law could do that to them? but what if this law means they make 0.1% less profit this year?". I absolutely understand this kind of reticence with actual babies, or individual people, or small-to-medium-sized businesses, but it makes me angry that people are so reluctant to act against these unaccountable mega-entities. it is hamstringing society

NaturalPhallacy 4y ago

>I don't see any win besides a minor convenience. A minor inconvenience multiplied by the number of smartphones (7.33 billion) is not a minor problem. It's not that it's a problem on the individual level, it's that we're roughly doubling the number of cables needed and halving their utilization at the same time. Yes I know android is more popular, but the issue is the two different cables needed. https://www.bankmycell.com/blog/how-many-phones-are-in-the-world https://www.bankmycell.com/blog/how-many-phones-are-in-the-w...