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Ask HN: Is there a developer laptop that does not suck and is not a Mac in 2022?

336 points by thepoet 4y ago

Background: I am sick of Apple's terrible customer support in my country. The most recent case was that of my friend who upgraded to a 14 inch Macbook Pro that stopped booting in 7 days. Since there is no return option in 30 days like in other geographies, he took it to Apple's authorised service centre (there are no Apple owned service centres in my country), and they put a big scratch right across the Apple logo. To add to this, Apple's customer support final response after more than a week of wasting his time was they would not be able to replace the display even when my friend sent clear voice recordings of the service centre employees accepting their mistake. He had to take the help of the local police who went with him to the shop to get a written statement that they would be replacing the display too along with the mainboard to fix the primary issue of dead laptop. I have had my own horror stories in the past 10 years and I do not want to pay another dime to Apple for such pathetic treatment even under warranty. Are there any other options for someone like me?

talonx 4y ago
Dell Precision 5540 - running Ubuntu - works great for me. YMMV.
hadrien01 4y ago
My company gives us a Dell Precision 5560 (big-co equivalent to Dell XPS, same chassis and everything), and it's pretty good. And we have next-day on-site support from Dell, but I don't think we've ever used it these last few years.
cednore 4y ago
I love System76 laptops. They are definitely crafted for developers. And I love their keyboard as well.
fsflover 4y ago
Perhaps https://puri.sm/products/librem-14 https://puri.sm/products/librem-14 should fit well for your requirements. I'm happy with their previous model, Librem 15.
- ibejoeb 4y ago
  I've posted positively about my librem 14 before. Initially it was pretty good. Now it's failing. I've got 3 dead keyboard keys, so without an external keyboard, it's unusable. I've been working with support for 6 days, and we're still negotiating. Good intentions, but it's just not there yet.
- strangus 4y ago
  Ordered a librem-14 in July of 2021. Never showed up. Filed for a refund in January 2022. Still waiting on that return. Can't dispute it with the cc company because it's over 120 days. I am going to have to take them to small claims court to get a refund.
- EntropyIsAHoax 4y ago
  Could you elaborate about your experience more? I'm looking for a new laptop in the next few months and I'm basically debating between the Librem 14 and Framework. My criteria would be - Repairability/longevity - Privacy and security - Usability
  - fsflover 4y ago
    Purism explicitly put Linux support first, unlike Framework. Suspend is flawless, any flavor of Linux should work out of the box, including FSF-endorsed distros. Default PureOS is FSF-endorsed. The devices require no binary blobs whatsoever, even for WiFi. Purism explicitly prioritize security (https://puri.sm/security https://puri.sm/security) and privacy (https://puri.sm/posts/tag/privacy/ https://puri.sm/posts/tag/privacy/), unlike Framework. Intel ME is disabled (for Librem 15, also neutralized), hardware kill switches are really convenient. First class Qubes support, it can even be preinstalled (it's what I use). Most important things are repairable/replaceable: battery, WiFi card, RAM, SSD, screen (I think). I heard keyboard is hard to replace though, but I had no problems with it. The keyboard is great, but the touchpad is worse than the one in Macs. I use a mouse. The laptop is thin, beautiful and powerful for my tasks.
begueradj 4y ago
- weberer 4y ago
  >Wow ! It took you 10 years of suffering? This sounds suspicious to me. You'd be amazed by the amount of people still using Windows in 2022, and cursing it every single day while doing so.
  - what-imright 4y ago
    Windows is a terrible OS. I don't even consider it an operating system, rather just malware that imitates macOS.
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      Which is a real shame, since MacOS has been imitating Unix since the beginning of time. And nowadays it doesn't even do that well, seeing how you can't run most containers without a second kernel running in a sidecar VM. It's true what they say, there is no good operating system under the sun.
      - nottorp 4y ago
        > Which is a real shame, since MacOS has been imitating Unix since the beginning of time. Hmm? Mac OS being unix based is new. Just from 2001, with OS X. And I wouldn't say it's imitating, it's just a BSD unix under the hood. > seeing how you can't run most containers without a second kernel running in a sidecar VM That's because they don't want to put the effort in to do a Mac OS specific solution though. Not because they couldn't.
wizofaus 4y ago
I've been pretty happy with my HP elitebook. I don't even bother with an external keyboard. But upgrading the RAM is a bit more painful than it needs to be. Haven't made use of support yet, hope I won't have to!
jmartin2683 4y ago
not really. I've tried a bunch. the biggest problem is the trackpad and just general, every day usability. you can't beat an apple silicon Mac laptop with anything today.
crawl_soever 4y ago
I actively use the XPS 13 from 2015 as my daily driver. I never had any issues besides a buggy broadcom wifi module that I recently swapped out for Intel which fixed all my issues. I can say I certainly got my money's worth & more from my machine!
John23832 4y ago
Lenovo X1 Carbon or any real Thinkpad. The keyboards are insanely good.
JoshTko 4y ago
How are you sick of customer service experience that you did not experience?
- thepoet 4y ago
  Did you miss the "I have had my own horror stories in the past 10 years" part?
seltzered_ 4y ago
I hated HP Elitebooks, but I've been happy with the HP Elite X2 G4/G8 tablet running Ubuntu. You can find them used for fairly cheap with a 3year support plan.
travismorton 4y ago
I see no one has mentioned Razer, but I'm on my second Razer Blade and I really like them as a Linux dev laptop which I can occasionally use for CUDA tasks. My first was a 13" Blade Stealth and now on a rebranded 15" Blade Advanced (Lambda Tensorbook). If you (or your company) can stomach the cost, it's a very well built machine with about the same amount of quirks as any other "Linux supported" laptop out there. I ran 17" and 15" System76 Oryx Pros before switching to a Razer and was not impressed by the hardware nor the Linux support considering it was a "Linux supported" laptop from the start.
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ppppwwwww 4y ago
I've been happily using the Dell 55xx series for quite some time now. Though I do mostly use it with external keyboard and screen.
alkonaut 4y ago
Would love to find a well built high performance non gaming AMD 6x00H laptop. Bonus points if it’s really quiet and has good cooling so it will run without throttling (much). Weight, screen, keyboard and battery life not an issue I won’t unplug it or carry it around more than a few times per year (don’t ask, but yes it has to be a laptop). All I can find is plasticky gaming rigs that some times don’t even have the pro/on-site support options, or lack option to not choose gaming GPUs.
dezzadk 4y ago
Nope. Its all buggy and shitty. Dell XPS had coilwhine for several ages despite numerous complaints and other laptops with same chipsets didn't. The cause? Cheaping out on inductors. Lenovo has firmware issues I just returned my laptop which gone black screen due to some suspend/sleep state at random. This is a huge issue btw affecting more than 20-30+ models. Actually Lenovo support guy I asked for his recommendation said he got the M1 Macbook Air lol, the other one I spoke to said the only one he didn't have complaints about was their flagship P1 model. The previous Dell I tried ordering had GPU DOA. Honestly I don't give a shit about the on-site support the other guy mentioned, its just a bandaid on the problem that all laptops suck, but more often than not no matter how many times you replace a motherboard you can't fix these glaring issues! Its the QUALITY of the motherboard that sucks! Macbooks aren't perfect either despite having better wifi, audio (and lower noise-floor). I would not choose a Macbook unless an employer gave it to me for free, but then I would without a doubt choose one. Will the logic board fail after 1 year warranty or a year after? Or have other quirks? Most likely! Android is the same btw, ask me why I run iPhone despite being the largest android fanboi previously.. everything was terribly broken and half-baked.. The only android device I own now is my SONY X900H TV and since latest update it has started to reboot itself at random. I'm fed up with this..
- paintman252 4y ago
  "everything was terribly broken and half-baked" What are you talking about? My S22 Ultra works great.
  - dezzadk 4y ago
    Give it to me for a week and I will tell you everything wrong with it including all the bugs you haven't found yet.
7speter 4y ago
6 year old thinkpads aren’t any good anymore? I really like that the parts are widely available enough and cheap (or were) that you can do repairs yourself. I guess there are people doing more mission critical things around here. I’ve been really impressed by frameworks offering and their insistence to stay true to their word about repairability and upgradability
pengo 4y ago
I've had a good run with Dell XPS13 laptops running Linux. The only negative has been the battery swelling when it reaches the end of its life; you need to watch for this to avoid it damaging other components. Thankfully it's easy enough to replace the battery yourself.
kurupt213 4y ago
Anything that can run notepad
rookderby 4y ago
I don't have a dev one, but all of the reviews have been phenomenal. If I were looking to buy some hardware, it would be near the top of my list, here's a review: https://www.wired.com/review/hp-dev-one-linux-laptop/ https://www.wired.com/review/hp-dev-one-linux-laptop/
mmcnl 4y ago
This is actually quite easy. Dell Latitude, HP EliteBook or Lenovo ThinkPad. All work well with Linux and have good support and/or can be purchased with additional warranty. Don't expect a 1:1 MacBook replacement though. Keyboards and touchpads are good these days, but battery life is worse and resolutions higher than 1920x1080 are rare.
fancyfredbot 4y ago
I like my Asus ROG Flow x13. Small, powerful, touch screen convertible with and a discrete GPU. If you can cope with the extra fan noise and shorter battery life then it is nicer than an M1 MacBook Pro for less money.
aabbcc1241 4y ago
I've been using System76 linux laptop (Kudu model, 21 inch screen, and awesome cooling fans) for a few years and it's working very well. It comes with Ubuntu pre-installed (although I switched to archlinux afterward)
ccrush 4y ago
Can I recommend a ThinkPad P series with Linux and some tuning? I've had nothing but good experiences for the most part. The only things I wouldn't recommend is a 4K laptop screen, Lenovo's prices for upgrades, or trying to get good power management in Linux. Make sure your CPU fans are turning when hear goes up or fix thinkfan config and check lm-sensors and don't use hibernate and force sleep mode to old/compatible/S3/other OS/Linux or whatever the option is called for you. Note about windows sleep mode: Microsoft worked with new firmware manufacturers for laptops to include sleep mode that's actually not sleeping but the CPU runs at 400MHz with the screen off. All your apps are still on, your computer is online, and things are happening while you think it's asleep. It uses very little power so actually being asleep or being in this mode doesn't change battery drain too much. However Linux won't play ball and it'll just wake up your computer and drain your battery while heating up your laptop bag. Turn it off.
zquestz 4y ago
I love my framework laptop. Runs linux perfectly, and has upgradable components. The arch guide is also excellent. https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Framework_Laptop https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Framework_Laptop
tetek 4y ago
I got Thinkpad x270 for $300. It's vintage and cool.
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auraham 4y ago
Since some HN readers have opted for gaming laptops, I would like to know their experiences with Linux. Did you have a problem with sleep mode, poor battery life, WiFi connectivity, GPU temperature, etc?
mpcannabrava 4y ago
Quite honestly I don't know what people are doing to their laptops to say anything bad about the Dell XPS. Statistically, it seems the overwhelming majority agrees they're great though. I've never even had to call customer support, I've been running PopOS on a specced out XPS15 for years which I installed myself, overriding the factory-installed Windows with no issues whatsoever (honestly just one minor firmware detail that was easily solved).
cndg 4y ago
Get this: https://rog.asus.com/laptops/rog-strix/rog-strix-scar-17-se-2022-series/ https://rog.asus.com/laptops/rog-strix/rog-strix-scar-17-se-... It's currently the fastest laptop in the word. (scores 99th percentile on everything)
rurban 4y ago
Mac's started sucking with their SW problems (usable until around High Sierra), their deprecation of 32bit, glossy displays and ultimately made it impossible with their broken keyboards. They fixed that, but I'm long gone since. My new cheap Lenovo AMD Ryzen 3 Thinkpad is far better and faster, just horribly heavy and low battery compared to the mac airs. The M1 Air is tempting, but they still have their broken SW.
fgonzalesv 4y ago
Always buy Business models of any brand. Lenovo? Buy Thinkpad. Dell? Latitude or Precision. HP? Probook or Elite. Business models are made to last, since companies buys them in batches of about 5 years and when they fail, the brand has to replace them. HP is a brand that usually sucks but my wife (then my gf) bought a HP from the business model and it lasted more than 10 years. There’s a reason why consumer laptops cost less than $1,000
PaulHoule 4y ago
I think the Dell XPS line is fine.
- athammer 4y ago
  The new Dell Inspiron 16 laptops are amazing as well (minus the track pad issues - not sure if they fixed that by now)
- gtaylor 4y ago
  Had some issues on recent Ubuntu with my XPS 17, but it runs wonderfully on Fedora.
- hattar 4y ago
  My company is moving away from the Dell XPS. We’ve had nothing but problems with the devices, primarily the terrible “killer” Wi-Fi and Bluetooth adapters. The support has been abysmal which makes it worse. I hear Lenovo is making good stuff though. We’ll see how that goes.
mtmail 4y ago
Related from 4 months ago "Ask HN: What’s a good laptop for software development at around $2k?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31094361 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31094361 First comment-thread is about Apple but once collapsed the next 10 are non-Apple recommendations.
- samuell 4y ago
  TIL one can collapse HN threads. With all the clear labels on HN, perhaps a [collapse] link would have been clearer.
  - djmips 4y ago
    Were you never curious about what the little [-] did? Where's your sense of adventure! I rib you, but at the same time I understand and your idea has merit.
    - srmarm 4y ago
      Not the person you're asking, but I thought the [-] acted as a downvote button and hid the offending content at the same time. If it isn't, why do some controversial comments get into a lighter font?
      - inawarminister 4y ago
        You unlock the ability to downvote posts and comments at 500 karma points I believe
        988747 4y ago
        Comments yes, posts no. Post downvoting either does not exist or has much higher karma threshold.
        hoistbypetard 4y ago
        You can flag posts, though.
deleted 4y ago
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Evidlo 4y ago
T series Thinkpad.
- silon42 4y ago
  And avoid models with NVidia
ggm 4y ago
I like Lenovo, their worldwide maintenance deal appears good, but I suspect the fundamental problem you have is in some ways, your economy, unless you can convince me the repair story doesn't happen with other vendors. And, if thats the case, the other vendors are looking pretty solid as a choice. Dell is good, in cycles. I only every bought in the bad years. If I wasn't on an Apple Mac I'd be on a thinkpad, or a chrome book at this point: run in VMs in the cloud, minimise dependency on the desktop.
BMc2020 4y ago
system76 dot com
- strangus 4y ago
  I love my lemur, however there is something wrong with their batteries. I've had two fail in less than a year each. They're not covered by warranty. Other than that, I love it.
- ss108 4y ago
  I have to protest; I have bought two of these and they have been lackluster. They feel very cheaply made. I am also having issues with my current System76 suddenly deciding not to detect my second monitor. Just a bad experience overall, though on this particular point, the flaw is easily Ubuntu's and not System76's.
  - orionblastar 4y ago
    I have a 15 year old Acer laptop that came with Windows 7 Home and runs Ubuntu just fine. I upgraded it to 8g RAM and 2T SSD hard drive.
  - contingencies 4y ago
    Recent ~forced Ubuntu LTS upgrade to 22.04 broke lots of things. They really need to improve their testing processes.
- acomjean 4y ago
  I have one for home for 4 years and a new one for work. I like them a lot. I had one issue upgrading the OS after installing steam, but they have good support. I really like a Matt screen and these have them. They’re rebranded Clevo machines but I found them to be decent quality. I had to replace a fan In the older one which I was able to do (we have a husky…..). They’re expandable and fast enough. Depending on the model some have a descrete gpu.
uf00lme 4y ago
Depends on what you are working on, but don’t dismiss buying a cheap chromebook with a decent screen and using a cloud instance. A lot of IDE plugins make it an even better experience. Just make sure you are near the data centre and it’ll be better then you think.
- sieabahlpark 4y ago
  Imagine paying a rental on your development environment.
  - csunbird 4y ago
    an alternative is to just buy a second hand rack server and send it to a colocation hosting provider. they maintain a good internet connection and supply the power.
    - mnd999 4y ago
      And the power is really really expensive. A lot more than it be on a domestic supply. In the uk at least.
  - dijit 4y ago
    Yeah, but setting up a simple Debian machine with Tailscale and using vscode remote or intellij gateway is also possible; even easy. You can even use the vscode-server thing made by gitpods that allows you to use vscode in a normal browser; but the environment feels weird because those localhost ports you're used to opening are not open of course.
  - mgraczyk 4y ago
    I do a lot of personal development and everything for my job on cloud VMs. I've been doing more development on a cloud VM than locally for around 4 years now. You can spin up whatever hardware you need more easily, backups are easier, connections to data are typically faster. Easier to get started again if you damage your laptop. There are lots of advantages.
  - 4y ago
pram 4y ago
It really depends on which company offers the best support in your country in this case, yeah? People can recommend whatever, but it’s most likely going to be someone living in the US.
solardev 4y ago
Look for a small business laptop with on-site support (Lenovo or Dell) in your country. Not their consumer lines but their business ones. You have to pay extra for that support and but it's worth it. If it's available in your country
lupuseli87 4y ago
I use a Dell Precision 5550 running Manjaro and it is an excellent machine, no complaints
contingencies 4y ago
Here's some zoom-out options. If you travel a lot and have to work, you need mobility, but possibly not as much as you think. If compact wireless input devices and a hotel TV, borrowed screen or correctly configured tablet may be adequate, then you only need a compute box not a full laptop and you can consider higher end ARM boards and a purchased or custom battery bank. If you don't have a huge travel requirement, you may be better off buying two desktops than one laptop as they are far cheaper, easier to maintain/repair, provide better input devices, better and far more upgradable. Carry your data around on a USB stick or SSD.
vincent-manis 4y ago
I have an MacBook Pro, which I really like. I recently wanted a second machine, running Linux, which I could (part of the time) use as a large tablet. I settled on a ThinkPad X1 Yoga, which I ordered with Ubuntu. It arrived with Ubuntu 20.04, which I immediately upgraded to 22.04. Everything worked fine out of the box (I haven't tried the fingerprint reader). This machine is not quite as fast as the MacBook Pro, but plenty good enough for me. I spend most of my time on this machine in Emacs. Both of these are pricy machines, but I'm really satisfied with them.
missedthecue 4y ago
My coworkers really like their Xioami laptops. I'm not sure what country you're in, but in my "developing economy" country, their service has been perfectly decent.
- t6jvcereio 4y ago
- sundarurfriend 4y ago
  I never knew they did laptops too. A bit surprising (to me) that their prices don't seem to be any lower than the established competitors.
tobinfekkes 4y ago
I spent months trying to answer this very same question, and stumbled upon the LG Gram. Best purchase of my developer career. 17 inch, backlit keyboard, 10 key numpad, great battery, trackpad equal or better to Mac, under 3 pounds, usb c charging. The full package. (Bonus: put MS PowerToys on it and remap the keyboard layout to your liking)
anothernewdude 4y ago
Should be pretty easy with only a single requirement.
sieabahlpark 4y ago
daviddever23box 4y ago
An Intel NUC 11 with a portable USB-C monitor should be inexpensive and flexible. If your OS won't run on it, it's probably broken. I use a NUC11PAHi7, which is basically a Tiger Lake-UP3 mobile chipset minus a display.
Danborg 4y ago
Frame work laptop
- jdbernard 4y ago
  I'll second this recommendation, as I've found it very pleasant to use as a developer laptop.
edfletcher_t137 4y ago
I will second the others who have recommended Lenovo: I have a Legion 5 I originally bought for gaming but the keyboard is so good I find myself using it for nearly all my development. Additionally, the Dell Precision line (the business workstation-replacement line) is exceptional for development, but those can be as expensive as equivalent MacBooks. Stay away from Dell's pure consumer line: the build quality is absolutely awful.
- lostdog 4y ago
  Any idea if Lenovo has fixed the coil whine issues on X1 Carbon's? The constant noise makes it really difficult to use these machines for any kind of focused work.
  - idealmedtech 4y ago
    Anecdotally, I've found that coil whine is much less of an issue in their chunkier models, eg P53 (not P53s)
  - schema 4y ago
    I'll vouch for multiple X1C gen 9's being super quiet. No whine; fans rarely kick on, but are almost unnoticeable. Can't say the same for the Extreme/P1 series...
    - lifeinthevoid 4y ago
      My X1C gen 9 fans are definitely not quiet when they start kicking in. Maybe this is a Linux-specific issue though.
  - tuatoru 4y ago
    Thinkpad X is for marketing types. Programmers want Thinkpad T or P.
    - jraph 4y ago
      I don't understand this comment. I'm a programmer and my X1 Carbon is the finest computer I've ever used. I don't have any noise issue with it. I can hear the CPU in a very quiet room but I've never used a computer that didn't have it, and I'm quite sensitive to noises too. Many people in my company have Lenovo X machines. And why marketing types should not care about comfort / noise? Is this a "Real men [...]" thing?
GauntletWizard 4y ago
I find my Framework laptop really good. 4h+ battery life despite Linux lacking support for the best idle state, plenty of power for compiling, clean and solid build. Best part: You can repair it at home.
chaosbutters314 4y ago
regardless of what you buy, I have a 1tb Linux/Ubuntu drive attached to my laptop through USB -c I dual boot into for certain projects. great for gaming/personal on windows and then doing work on the Linux drive. I share files via cloud services if needed and it works seemlessly
- physPop 4y ago
  That is really interesting. Have you noticed a performance penalty at all? E.g. with large concurrent IO like compiling, or other dev use cases? eSATA never seemed to take off for that application, and on paper usb-c should be pretty good!
  - timbit42 4y ago
    Go with an M.2 to USB adapter to avoid slower SATA speeds.
- Theodores 4y ago
  I like your solution. However, I took it a little further by getting two machines and connecting them together via the Thunderbolt USB ports. I can access my files at native speed with the cable plugged in, or in go-slow mode over wifi or in super-slow mode over the internet, with my wifi router configured accordingly. There was nothing online about how to do this. I just had to plug the Thunderbolt 4 cable in and it worked perfectly. No instructions needed, it configured itself and I was instantly in a new world of network file speeds. I use Barrier KVM too.
is_true 4y ago
Asus.
metta2uall 4y ago
I've been using a Clevo-based laptop for years - very good value and works well with Linux. Just don't expect something light-weight with a great battery life - but if you're happy to carry more weight (it's actually good exercise..) and mostly plug it in that's fine. In Australia you can buy from https://www.metabox.com.au/ https://www.metabox.com.au/
- danicriss 4y ago
  I second Clevo - running Manjaro for a year professionally and it kicks ass. Great CPU (got an 8-core 11800H) and the NVMe and RAM of your choice for about $2000
AngeloAnolin 4y ago
I find that the MSI business line of laptops to be topnotch and worth the money. https://www.msi.com/Business-Productivity https://www.msi.com/Business-Productivity I have the MSI Prestige 15 and it has been very reliable and a pleasure to work with. I've had a Lenovo initially, but had all these problems with the web camera. It was a decent computer, but the camera is quite essential in this age of remote / hybrid work arrangements.
fb03 4y ago
I'm having a good experience with the Dell G15 (Core i7, 32gb of ram, NVIDIA GTX3060) on Ubuntu 20.04. Everything works (besides, ofc, what has never ever worked ever in Linux: suspend) and it's a very performant machine.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
DaniDaniel5005 4y ago
The three aspects to consider when buying a laptop: Weight, Performance and Price. Laptops that are cheaper and lighter weighted usually have a lower performance. Laptops that have higher performance and lower price usually are heavy weighted. Laptops that have higher performance and lighter weight are usually pricey. You have to sacrifice one of the three. I’d personally go for the Dell Precision 5520. Cheap, high performance, moderate weighted. P.S. (usually) heavier laptops are more upgradable and repairable so thats why I chose to sacrifice the weight for the other two…
- tuatoru 4y ago
  No, keyboard quality, reliability, (calendar) longevity, robustness and repairability are more important considerations than any of those. Dell Precision can be a good choice, true.
  - nottorp 4y ago
    > No, keyboard quality, reliability, (calendar) longevity, *robustness* and repairability ... the hinge on the lenovo legion 7 that my daughter's using for university broke after 2 years. Repair shop told me don't close it by pulling on just one corner, either pull from the midlle or both corners. As a macbook owner, it didn't occur to me that she should go easy on the hinges ;)
skhameneh 4y ago
I'd look at the Xeon Lenovo machines (I think it was P series I was window shopping), Asus for design/gaming (their dual screen models are so nice in person, I found them to be slimmer than I expected), and Dell for something really solid/mass produced. Essentially... Xeon Lenovo for "ultra enterprise", Asus for speed/looks/features, Dell for a "good laptop".
- Justin_K 4y ago
  Don't be tempted by the Lenovo X series laptops. I have had nothing but trouble with battery life, throttling and cooling. Stick with P.
  - mnd999 4y ago
    My first gen X1 carbon has been brilliant. It’s dated but I still use it for some things. Had run Linux and FreeBSD without issues over the years.
jshzglr 4y ago
I’ve owned approximately 8 apple products with essentially zero issues in the past decade sans some slight Bluetooth connection issues with my AirPods Pro. Apple makes the best laptops at the moment and it’s really not close. I’d take my chances if I were you.
endigma 4y ago
I had an xps 13 9300 and struggled with battery life on any Linux distro ( tried fedora, Ubuntu, pop, elementary, solus, Arch, void ) and I'm not a beginner or anything. Even with combinations of tlp, powertop, gnome power profiles, kernel shit to make it run lower speed. Framework is really nice from a hardware perspective, but the display res is wonky with scaling, 100% is small and 200% is big, which puts you in the no no zone on most display servers which employ fractional scaling. MacOS is the only I've ever used that doesn't completely butcher oddball scales. Battery life I've observed to be around 4 hours of light usage on stock fedora. (11th gen main board) I personally run a new MacBook Pro M1 running any Linux I want in Lima or parallels, depending on GUI needs. Damn thing is god tier on battery, outlasts any other laptop I've ever owned by a factor of 3 at least.
- MerelyMortal 4y ago
  I currently have a Dell XPS 13 9300 and have had no issues with it, including battery life running Ubuntu.
  - dijit 4y ago
    > no issues with it, including battery life Depends on your definition of issues though, I prefer linux to be perfectly honest but the MacBook Air I have has changed my mentality about battery life. I literally do not look for outlets anymore; I use the machine for the whole day and I charge it at night like my phone. If that's what the competition is then the 5hrs I used to get with my 97Wh battery on my Precision 5520 is definitely "an issue", because 3.5hours in I start getting battery anxiety.
kodah 4y ago
I run a Lenovo X1 Carbon that I've yet to send to the grave. It also works exceedingly well if you run Linux that also happens to supports firmware updates.
- jraph 4y ago
  I have both a Lenovo X1 Carbon Gen 9 and an HP EliteBook 840 G6 running Linux, I'm very happy with both machines. The HP has a better management of fn keys, seems to lack support for > 4K 30 Hz on its HDMI port with my screen (both that might be fixed on newest generations), the X1 has a better trackpoint handling. Both have fantastic battery life (around 10h) and are quiet. The X1 tends to spin the fan earlier than the HP, if it's an issue, setting the energy profile on "power save" in the KDE battery widget fixes it. Of course it makes the computer slower but it's still quite fast (the CPU is a Core i7-1165G7) Make sure you avoid hardware that have issues with the camera on Linux, it's a shame we are back to have to check for this stuff.
  - mingusrude 4y ago
    We bought a number of Carbons (Gen 9) to the office and all of them (5) have had some kind of technical problems. It's been malfunctioning fans, a motherboard that stopped working, a screen where colors were awful etc. We might have gotten a bad batch but it was not at all what I expected from Thinkpads. Lenovo's support has been great though.
    - gorbachev 4y ago
      I work for a big tech company with thousands of developers. We use Lenovo X1 laptops (Carbon and Extreme) and have been doing that for a few years now. There is no systemic issue with those laptops. The failure rates are very small.
    - matsemann 4y ago
      Same, everyone at our office have had issues with their Carbon. Most other Lenovo's work well, though. Main issue most had is it chokes whenever doing something video related, which was a bit of an issue during the pandemic. And if you power it through your monitor, it will disconnect and re-connect the screen regularly. Ironic, since the monitors were also from Lenovo.. This made it impossible to have two monitors connected, since you were forced to use one of the USB-C sockets exclusively for power or it would behave erratically.
lfkdev 4y ago
xps 13 plus, even ships with linux
oxff 4y ago
Does Mac have anything like WSL or are you stuck using Virtualbox or Docker?
- captainmuon 4y ago
  Mac is Unix under the hood, so you can do a lot of stuff natively. I do Python development and can do most things 1:1 the same on Mac and deploy on Linux. But if you use a compiled language there is more friction of course.
- oakesm9 4y ago
  A Mac is unix-like on its own so a lot of Linux tools work directly on MacOS without the need for anything like WSL. If you want an actual Linux environment though, then yes you need to use Virtualbox or Docker.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ranguna 4y ago
Checkout system76, slimbook, tuxedo computers or the framework laptop. All of these companies make amazing laptops.
- sputr 4y ago
  I own a slimbook and have been quite satisfied with it - it's got everything I wanted and needed for normal price.
  - kramerger 4y ago
    Have heard since good things about Slimbooks. Could you tell us more about your experience and how much you paid for it?
    - sputr 4y ago
      Payed ~1.2k EUR if I remember correctly — the bigger model with some upgrades. Took about a month (I asked for a Slovenian keyboard, which they added for free). Came preinstalled with my linux of choice, no compatibility issues yet. It's smaller than expected for the screen size. Lighter as well. Have had no heating or other issues. Battery lasts for 6plus hours with web development including docker containers and a modern php/js toolchain. I'm not a very finicky buyer, but I got everything I wanted for much less than all of my web dev friends. I game over geforce now, so I got everything covered. I'm out of warranty and am still happy with it. Would recommend and buy again.
mkl95 4y ago
I love my Slimbook
throwawaydell 4y ago
I still use 12year old Dell laptop. Runs Ubuntu 20.04 smoothly. I have ES, MySQL, firefox with 20tabs, vscode and all running at the same time and still have half cores and memory free. Android studio is the only thing I hate to run on this machine.
2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
What country is this? People are suggesting Frame Work laptops but if you don’t have official Apple support, it’s even less likely Frame Work ships to this country and if you managed to get one you’d have no support. I imagine you need to go the Dell XPS or Lenovo route.
- enlyth 4y ago
  The XPS are pretty decent machines, I just wish they didn't get so damn hot. This is probably Intel's fault? Can't have the laptop on your lap because it will burn through your legs and it's loud af since the fans spin at a million RPM trying to cool it down. Aiming to sell my 13" XPS and replace it with an M2 Macbook Air, after work gave me an M1 16" Pro and it's just so unbelievably efficient and never gets hot, plus the battery last all day under heavy load.
  - z9znz 4y ago
    It's Dell's fault. They are the ones designing the internals of the laptop and choosing the power levels. I use a top of the line XPS for several years, and there were two common user-fixes that really improved this heat issue: adding a thermal transfer pad between a couple of the power-related chips and the case, and running a CPU voltage tool to reduce the voltage a bit. Undervolting really made a huge difference, including making the laptop overall faster. The stupid thing, even in a good environment, would go into heat-reduction mode after a few seconds of heavy load, cutting the clock speeds in half. But just by reducing the CPU voltage a few tenths of a volt, the heat was much lower and the CPU almost never throttled. Even so, the fans were loud and usually on. On paper it looked like a phenomenal laptop. In actual use, it was very unpleasant. In contrast, my M1 Air has been a dream. I'm trying to think of a negative about it, but honestly I can't think of anything. I've been using it most of every day for a year, on a desk with a big monitor as well as in several places around the world. Even the 16GB RAM limitation has rarely been an issue (except occasionally with my last client that was deeply in love with Docker... 8 running containers plus JetBrains IDEs and of course Firefox with a couple dozen tabs does eventually slow the laptop a bit, but only occasonally). The new M2 with 24GB will be perfect, especially with the slightly brighter screen for those beachside moments ;)
nathias 4y ago
Lenovo Carbon + Arch Linux, it just works better
Lutger 4y ago
I absolutely love my Framework laptop for dev. I feel the software support is also quite good, at least for Fedora which is explicitly supported. I got the DIY edition and put everything together, including installing Fedora, in under 1 hour. And I'm a really slow guy, haven't build a computer in 10 years - its too easy with framework. This laptop is really build to be repairable and modular and it does not suck at all. I think it will last a long time. The ability to choose your own edition also means I got a reasonably affordable laptop with loads of RAM, which I find is quite useful for development.
- RL_Quine 4y ago
  I can see why people idealistically want the device but mine is really not up to being a usable production device. The wonky design of the “modules” means they’re practically useless, the hardware has almost endlessly has stability and issues with bricking, it has never once given me confidence in almost any respect. I want to love the thing and there’s nice features about the product, but I’d hesitate to suggest anybody seriously use the thing.
  - kkielhofner 4y ago
    Same boat. I’m happy I spent thousands of dollars supporting a startup with ideals. I hate that I live with it everyday. I’m building a startup and it turns out trying to build a startup literally on a startup maybe isn’t the best idea. I sincerely regret the purchase.
    - kzrdude 4y ago
      What are the problems with it in practice? I'd have ordered one if it was shipping to my country
      - kkielhofner 4y ago
        It’s a non-stop parade of weirdness. Fixes from recent BIOS release notes include things like “Fix battery not charging when system is off.” https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/framework-laptop-bios https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/framework-laptop-bios... Again, part of me is glad I supported them. I just wish I wasn’t reminded of it several times a week when I’m dealing with one random issue or another with it. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I regret it more than any other large technology purchase I’ve ever made. If it weren’t for the principal of the matter I’d just cut my losses, buy something else, and put this thing in a closet.
BuckRogers 4y ago
I've loved my Thinkpad X1 Xtreme for years now. I was given the choice of what I wanted to be issued for my job and it has served me well. Would I buy it for my personal use? No. I am not a fan of Lenovo being a Chinese company now, and it's very boring. I still haven't had any problems with it. Before this machine I was issued a Dell XPS and the battery life was amazing for a Wintel laptop, great speakers and a unique power button + fingerprint reader button in one, but it had a ton of BIOS based issues and quirks. It always seems to me it takes years for them to work all the bugs out vs other companies. Dell is like a lot of companies where I prefer their designs over everyone elses, but I just can never bring myself to love them. For personal use for fun or as a consultant, I'd reach for a Samsung laptop. They lag behind on CPUs and such but they're my pick. For a fleet, I'd probably have to go Lenovo out of necessity for the support.
colordrops 4y ago
Switch to Linux. Using MacOS locks you into proprietary hardware. By focusing on the software rather than the hardware, you can switch hardware manufactures as they oscillate in quality. Going with something like NixOS would make this even easier as your operating system setup could easily be migrated to another machine when the time comes.
- suprfnk 4y ago
  While NixOS in principle would make switching between hardware manufacturers easier, working with NixOS is anything but easy. Don't expect to run anything that isn't packaged. Don't expect packaging some binary blob for NixOS is easy.
  - colordrops 4y ago
    I've found it to be a ton easier than RPM or deb files. Not much ceremony - a binary can sometimes be packaged with a dozen lines of config. The problem isn't that it's not easy. It is easy. The problem is that it's an entirely new ecosystem and language, and takes time to learn. But it's worth it.
- pizza234 4y ago
  Switching to Linux is a move that must be extremely carefully considered, due to compatibility. I'm positive about this because I've been working 10+ years exclusively on it, and compatibility is "not great". In the past, Linux compatibility was not great because the desktop userbase was considerably smaller. Today, compatiblity is not great because hardware got considerably more complex. It's possible that some hardware is very compatible. That's great! But one has to be very careful. For example the alleged Dell XPS compatibility with Linux is a half-scam (I've worked on such laptop), or brands like Lenovo, which used to be very compatible in the past, now are not necessarily so (e.g. Ryzen 6000 laptops are a dumpster fire on Linux).
  - allisdust 4y ago
    > Dell XPS compatibility with Linux is a half-scam How so? I'm using one with ubuntu 22. 04 and it works great. Haven't seen a laptop that properly sleeps and wakes up with Linux before so it has been a pleasant experience. Only thing that doesn't work out of the box is the fingerprint reader.
a-dub 4y ago
lenovo p1 is basically an intel mbp 15. camera and audio aren't as good as the mac, although i hear the camera has improved in later generations. bigger issue is that the nvidia graphics are wired to the thunderbolt ports, so if you want to drive external displays you have to run with discrete graphics enabled which means battery life suffers or complications involving frequent bios config changes. this too may have been addressed in later generations though. the p1 and x1c are probably best in class, with the t as a close second if you can tolerate more heft in exchange for more tradeoffs from size to performance and expandability. traditionally the thinkpads have had some of the best linux support thanks to their popularity amongst linux developers. this may be changing though as linux gains popularity and developer oriented alternatives like system76, framework and lambda gain steam. thinkpads are also known for build quality, but that gap may be narrowing as well.
yread 4y ago
I would recommend HP's 840 or 845 series. Easy to upgrade RAM and SSD, solid hardware, lots of ports, light but sturdy, very quiet, next business day on site guarantee available, relatively little bloatware, the older G8 even has buttons on touchpad which is handy for dragging but it's 16:9, G9 is 16:10!
6510 4y ago
what and where you are developing is important
anddt 4y ago
Currently using a T490s (win-based on WSL, work machine) and a T480s (Fedora, upgraded to 24gb ram) for personal projects and they're both fine machines. The T480s runs a bit cooler after a repaste than the T490s but I'd say they can handle fine whatever I throw at them.
- ihateolives 4y ago
  Sure, but both are older models and have (T480s) roughly half the performance of M1 base model. For some things (in Photoshop/Lr) the difference is even greater.
  - kramerger 4y ago
    People specifically prefer older Lenovos for other reasons than raw performance (cost, keyboard, max ram, Linux support, ...).
  - anddt 4y ago
    Yes, both machines are not too recent (by now I'd expect to find them for cheap on ebay) but they support my workloads more than well. I work in ML and they're fine for general Python programming and exploratory data analysis. I spin a VM for anything that requires more memory/threads. I'd would probably buy a beefier laptop from Tuxedo Computers or Slimbook if I needed more performances hoping to win the Clevo/Tongfang QC lottery (my T480s was fairly expensive in Italy 3/4 years ago). So I guess that it ultimately boils down to the type of workload that OP deals with. edit: poor grammar
throwaway4good 4y ago
Are you sure alternative brands offer better service? Also Apple stores will fix your computer outside your country. I remember I got my MacBook’s motherboard replaced in China at no cost.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  There are plenty of countries without Apple stores. Denmark, for example.
zeroth32 4y ago
I have Dell XPS 13 2015 (9350). It gets fair abuse and fell on floor couple of times. Over years I replaced keyboard, battery, charging port, bottom plate from case (display hinge broke). All parts are on ebay for like $50 and can be replaced with a screedriver and YouTube video. I decided to keep this laptop indefinitely and just keep replacing parts. I also have spare laptop of the same type, so I can just swap SSDs or parts if it breaks. It is still decent machine, 7 hours on battery, 1.2 kg, nice touch display, excellent keyboard, 16GB RAM, USB-C charging.... From my workstation I need 64GB RAM, good cooling and many ports (4x displays etc). I do not feel any current laptop provides that. And I do not want to pay $7000 premium for decent machine. So at end I decided for mini PC (Asus PN 52). It is 1kg tiny box, can be carried daily and is very cost effective.
keyle 4y ago
Can anyone comment on System76 vs. Framework and what you chose or maybe if you used both?
- byyll 4y ago
  System76 is a Clevo reseller, I don't think there is any added value other than supporting the company that makes PopOS but you might instead donate if you really want to. Framework in contrast is doing something more "revolutionary".
- cpburns2009 4y ago
  I have a Galago Pro 5 without the dedicated Nvidia GPU. It's a nice, lightweight, 14" laptop with an upper aluminum shell. I'm running Manjaro on it, and it runs great with a decent battery life (roughly 6 hours?) while programming. The Framework laptop intrigues me but I ultimately wanted something less experimental.
carlsborg 4y ago
ASUS OLED Zenbook Ryzen 5900 + Manjaro. Perf benchmarks compare to an M1 at half the price. The Wifi network card driver doesn't handle hibernates too well, so you need to disable your network manually before (Or replace the network adapter card as some have done).
- vbernat 4y ago
  Do you have sound? Both speakers and microphone? It seems to not be handled too well yet.
  - carlsborg 4y ago
    Sound yes, microphone haven't tried. I can do a writeup on my install notes and post it here on the weekend.
- akvadrako 4y ago
  There is also the ASUS Vivobook Pro 14X if you want dedicated graphics. They are not yet available, but the Vivobook Pro 14 with Ryzen 6000-series CPUs also looks interesting. Both are OLED but sadly limited to 16GB RAM. The ProArt StudioBook 16 is an option too. I'll be getting one soon; I've not been happy with the quality of my Thinkpad and really would like to avoid Chinese products in any case.
- kramerger 4y ago
  > you need to disable your network manually before (Or replace the network adapter card as some have done) Really annoying that it doesn't work out of the box. but can't your solution be automated with systemd?
  - carlsborg 4y ago
    Excellent idea
adisbladis 4y ago
Lenovo's paid warranty has been fantastic for me in the multiple countries where I've used it (Sweden, Hong Kong and Mexico). In all three they sent out a local service technician that fixed the problem on-site. Once it was a a worn out SSD that was replaced with one twice as big as that was the only thing they had in stock (Sweden), another time it was a broken connector on the motherboard (Hong Kong) and the third time it was a broken display (Mexico, Cozumel). I was most impressed by the service in Mexico as it's pretty far from any major cities and the technician came out after only a day. If good warranty service is important to you I cannot recommend enough to get a Lenovo (T, P or X series) laptop and shell out for the extra warranty.
- brtkdotse 4y ago
  I bought a P14s a few months ago and got an offer for 3 years of premium on-site support for €1 :D Note that you have to purchase it as a company to get access to the premium support.
- kramerger 4y ago
  I had the same experience with Lenovo. On-site support is expensive but also a no-brainer for professional users. Just beware that Lenovo makes some great laptops as well as some really really crappy models.
formerly_proven 4y ago
The current (2022) LG Gram come with Intel Alder Lake and dual USB4/TB4, they basically seem to be the only interesting competitors to the lightweight Apple laptops. The 14" model is 1.0 kg compared to the M1 Macbook Air at 1.3 kg. Linux compatibility is very good with current kernels (I had a few DRM/GuC restarts with 5.18, those seem to be fixed in 5.19), all hardware works out of the box. ADL-P power management is still being worked on afaik, so for the time being it seems like the power profile you set does have a larger than usual impact - powersave results in 20-30h runtime, balanced more like 10. The base models have a 1240P, which is an "4C8T + 8C8T" CPU (for a total of sixteen threads). The CNVi Intel wifi in these doesn't seem to have the 5G bug. Edit: One issue with virtually any better-ish new laptop will be that the display won't be native sRGB. The LG Gram series uses P3 displays, for example (most will be similar), which means that colors will be over-saturated and especially reds will be very intense and orange-y. MacOS has the correct color management to deal with this, Windows and Linux don't really, and Wayland in particular has very poor support for color management. I've manually set a generic P3 profile in Firefox and that pulls most colors back into a more agreeable shape.
- ur-whale 4y ago
  >The current (2022) LG Gram I use a 16 inches 2021 model (so an 11th gen Intel CPU instead of Alder Lake) on a daily basis both at the office and on the go, running Ubuntu 20.04LTS I really, really like it: - runs Linux out of the box - *extremely* lightweight - battery lasts forever even with CPU-hungry workloads, typically a full day. - very nice 16 inches hi-rez (2560 x 1600) screen - very comfortable keyboard and touchpad - supports an external 4k screen through USB-C without a sweat - super fast (especially if you install your OS on raid-0 dual SSD) - 4 12th gen cores (8 with hyperthreading on) - built-in GPU (Intel® Iris® Xe MAX Graphics) has enough oomph to run blender @ 4k with very large textured scenes There are however two minor downsides: - on my specific version (I believe the 2022 models have fixed this), built-in speakers don't seem work on Linux, only windows (the earphones jack works, just not the built-in speakers which Linux can't seem to control the volume of properly) - when the laptop is not on a flat surface and a bit twisted, the left click on the touch pad sometimes fails. All in all, I'd highly recommend this if - like me - you've given up on OSX in disgust and are looking for a serious dev machine.
durnygbur 4y ago
In my workplaces in Germany the service desks were terrified every time there was a need to repair of submit warranty claim for an Apple hardware, in less developed EU countries simply assume the warranty or repair options do not exist. You're throwing a sack of golden coins at an American moloch and counting that the device will not fail.
2143 4y ago
ThinkPad.
- Closi 4y ago
  I've got a Mac for home, and a ThinkPad for work. Both are great. ThinkPad's are incredibly boring, and great because they are incredibly boring. They aren't trying to be exciting in their design, and because of that can include things like ports(!) and sufficient cooling(!). We bought 10 at work, and we haven't had a significant problem with any of them over the last two years.
davide_v 4y ago
I got in 2016 the Xiaomi Mi Notebook Air for about ~750$ and I'm still using it today (Ubuntu 20). The design is the most similar to Mac design, but with more ports (:D). When I bought it, the other option I considered was Dell XPS, and I see it's mentioned many times in the comments.
mdp2021 4y ago
Warning: in the past couple of years, manufacturers that shipped perfectly decent products have started replacing good components and build quality with unusable crap. If something has to sit in front of you for hours, you want materials that do not hinder you while you are operating. Expect the successors of some formerly very good lines to be noisy on touch (as in, tapping on a cardboard box), to be unpleasant on touch (with reference to touchpads), to stink. Plus, heavily tinted displays with spotlights, etc. Nowadays, you must assess it physically, not just on on-paper specifications.
geenat 4y ago
lenovo legion are very close to classic thinkpads. perhaps new gigabyte laptops.
DarthNebo 4y ago
Unless you are fine with paying again for a windows license & sub 10hr battery life, I'd recommend any of the Zephyrus lineup with Ryzen & Nvidia gpu if your workflow can make use of CUDA or else AMD GPU for cheaper & decent battery life, performance/$ as well.
gwnywg 4y ago
I love my super heavy and bulky Lenovo P53. Love it for horsepower, also because Arch runs on it n without problem, and finally because tech support exceeded my expectations, doing cleaning after 2 years for free (part of cleaning was to recover from little coffe spill...). I would prefer if it was not so plasticky, but I can't have everything :)
- ivanmontillam 4y ago
  I have a Lenovo P53 maxed out, it got everything it could have. It's great. I'm looking forward to buy another P Series in a few years.
- matsemann 4y ago
  I loved my P1 Gen1. 64GB RAM already back then, lots of power. Got a Carbon from a new employer, which was really lacking for dev purposes (Gen8 or 9, only 16 GB ram, choked on remote meetings). Wanted to upgrade to the X1 Extreme which looked nice, but was impossible to get hold of at the time so got to switch to a Dell XPS 15 9510 which works quite well.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bluedino 4y ago
  The Lenovo P-series are amazing. I used to use my P50 as a portable ESX server. The P16 is out now, I would love the larger screen but the newest hardware doesn't work perfectly on Linux yet. I tried a P5xS model for a while, which is supposed to be a slimmer, lighter 'workstation', but the performance was severely lacking. They are only as powerful as the T series machines they are based on. I no longer needed such a machine so I switched back to the X1 which is as close to a Mac as I think you can get. From time to time I am issued various Dell or HP laptops from work, and frankly they aren't really comparable. The keyboards and trackpads are horrible, they're buggy... However, I will say this about the Dell Latitude that is my currrent take home from the office: it will sit in the 90 degree weather, in the sun, and operate without any issues - unlike my iPhone. I'm sure it clocks down (I can hear the fan going), but it works without a hitch. The screen is a bit hard to read in the bright outdoors, but after changing profiles in my terminal/editor and bumping the font up 2 sizes it's not terrible.
dncornholio 4y ago
Is there any laptop that can match Apple's touchpad? This is all I need to know. The touchpad is the only thing that keeps me tied to Apple. It works so wonderful.
- drchiu 4y ago
  Yes, I use Macs quite regularly and the trackpad is the one feature that keeps me coming back. Just recently bought a cheap ThinkBook (Lenovo) 14 4th gen and was very surprised that the trackpad works so well. Feels like 95% of the Mac trackpad. The rest of the build quality isn’t bad either. Not a Mac for sure, but quite sturdy and runs well. Running Linux within Windows via VM.
sgjohnson 4y ago
Apple’s customer support is truly terrible in countries where they don’t have an official presence. My wireless Magic Keyboard with Numpad and Touch ID just stopped working one day. I took it to the Apple Premium Reseller store where it was purchased for service, and it took them FOUR AND A HALF MONTHS to replace it. I should have walked out of that store with a new one in my hands, because it’s impossible to repair. I seriously wonder what took them four and a half months to realize that.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  If they didn’t have me a new one within a few weeks I’d be calling the bank or the consumer protection contact of the government to have a refund.
- suction 4y ago
rcarmo 4y ago
If you can get a decent display in your region (because they usually nickel and dime European users and do unfathomable part sourcing), Lenovo are usually a good choice. I am a Portuguese Mac user and we still don’t have an official Apple Store in my country (although there are a few third-party certified support centres) and have been using mostly Surface laptops at work, but with the Apple Silicon switch I bought a mid-range Lenovo Ryzen laptop solely for running and building x86 Linux packages, and I am pretty happy with it even though it is plasticky and hardly as polished. I suspect the high end ones might be suitable, although to be fair I had an X1 Carbon a few years back and loathed it - it was the reason I opted for Surface laptops to run Windows.
cranium 4y ago
I'm a happy owner of a Dell Precision 5520 that is already 5 years old. It shipped with a Ubuntu LTS by default and I took a 3-year next day repair warranty that I used once for a swollen battery. I cannot express how happy I was to have my laptop repaired in less than an hour in my kitchen by a Dell certified technician. Given how dependent I am on my computer for work, if I had to send it I would have lost at least a week of productivity. Instead, it was just a minor inconvenience. Sh*t happens, but I would pay for this peace of mind every time. For my next laptop, I'm waiting for Framework to open shipping to Switzerland. It won't come this kind of warranty but its full repairability will make up for it.
- Gatsky 4y ago
  Not sure I want a new laptop where the battery swells up within 3 years.
  - z9znz 4y ago
    This can happen to any device if there's a one-off manufacturing problem somewhere (esp in the battery). I don't see it very often, but I've seen it on a Surface Pro (the store display model!... I had to point it out to the staff and suggest they replace it before it caught fire and hurt a shopper), on my 2014 MBP after 4 years, and some other device I now forget about. Unless lots of people are reporting this for a given device, it's probably just a fluke. It can happen, but it usually doesn't.
    - tchaffee 4y ago
      Which is fine if they would replace it. But Dell no longer does so it's your cost if you get unlucky. Buyer beware. My keyboard also started sticking on my latest Dell. I won't even sell it to someone it's such a troublesome laptop.
      - tatersolid 4y ago
        Dell replaces swollen batteries on our whole fleet, even nearly 3 years into the “Pro support” warranty. Happens to about 1% of our machines over a 3-4 year lifetime. If you pay for the on-site “pro” warranty Dell just sends a tech, quickly and no questions asked. Even to small rural towns.
fxtentacle 4y ago
I'm very happy with my Acer Aspire Nitro. The look is gamer-ish and case looks like cheap plastic, but my last on worked well for 5 years. Good AMD CPU + 3080 for <$1000.
iExploder 4y ago
last year I got maxed out Tuxedo Pulse 14, which I'm using as a daily driver. so far no complains and it does the job for business option I got Dell Precision 5470 this summer, and it looks pretty solid so far Both laptops are running Linux and look like they could last 5 years without any issues, which is usually fairly enough.
White_Wolf 4y ago
Not sure if this falls in line with your workstyle but... I'm using a few XCP-NG vm's for anything dev related(including test environment). I keep a few main images depending on what I'm working on and just add/remove resources if/when needed. A lot more effective (for me) than being tied to a specific machine. I carry with me a cheap 13" laptop and my phone, both with VPN's set up to dial in into my home network. I can use either. When I'm travelling somewhere I don't even take the laptop. I only have a foldable keyboard, mouse, small pocket projector. For remote connectivity without my VPN I use Splashtop business (very very rare). It happened to me a few times that the VPN was not working over 4G (still don't have a cliue why)
suction 4y ago
zivkovicp 4y ago
Please excuse the long-winded answer... I have also given up on Apple, but mostly because I can't see the value in it anymore, otherwise my experience with them has been satisfactory (Intel CPU models). For the past few years I used a Microsoft Surface Pro because it seemed to have good build quality and high screen resolution, but despite this I have had to replace it as part of a recall due to a graphics hardware issue, so it was not without its flaws. On a side note, I found the Windows OS to be OK for non-dev work, but would always "work" on the Linux subsystem... so even though Windows supports it quite well, I would just suggest 100% Linux. For 2022 I decided to buy a "gaming" laptop and switch to 100% Linux. The build quality is a little lower than Apple, and the screen resolution is not as good as Apple or Surface Pro, but it is still good, and when using my external monitor there is no difference. The benefits are clear, however, for less than 50% of the cost I am getting superior performance, discrete GPU, excellent cooling, and NO LOCK-IN. There is also the added benefit of being able to play the occasional video game with great performance. So far I don't regret it.
- benjaminwootton 4y ago
  I am the same with regards to value. Even though I can stretch to it, the prices for MacBooks in the UK are off the charts. Tempted to look elsewhere on principle next time.
  - zivkovicp 4y ago
    That's really what did it for me, I like Apple products and think they are great quality, but I don't think they are good enough to justify the price; and for me, the "status" that comes with it (if any) is worthless.
- andrei_says_ 4y ago
  For me the value of Apple is to develop and design on the same machine, reliably. A privacy-oriented OS that allows me to run photoshop Lightroom etc. in addition to dev things. At this point I wouldn’t touch Windows with a 10-foot pole.
- tmaly 4y ago
free652 4y ago
My requirements are simple and hard, I need to have 2 4k monitors and preferably at 144hz. not that many businesses laptops can do that. I have settled for m1 pro, but I didn't pay attention that the hdmi output is only 2.0. so the second screen is only 60hz.
eqvinox 4y ago
I'm about to buy an HP EliteBook 845 G9 to replace my current 830 G5 (which has been OK, replacing it because an i7-8550U is too slow to work with an external 4K display.) My parameters were: - AMD CPU - possibility to install 64 GB of RAM; a factory option with 64GB soldered down would be OK (but I don't think this exists) - Thunderbolt / USB4 support - Metal / "rugged" frame - not noticeably larger than my current 830 G5 (310x235mm) With these parameters there isn't all that much choice left. In fact, I originally had another parameter, on-board GigE LAN port, that I ended up sacrificing. And to find devices matching those criteria - I can highly recommend Geizhals, e.g. for the above: https://geizhals.eu/?cat=nb&sort=p&xf=14285_64%7E1482_AMD%7E18232_1%7E2377_14.1 https://geizhals.eu/?cat=nb&sort=p&xf=14285_64%7E1482_AMD%7E... . even if you're not in the EU, their index/filtering is fantastic (though be warned, parts of it are manually collected, errors MAY slip in. The USB4/TB data is particularly iffy. I still know of no better alternative.) Since my laptop is my primary work tool, I do generally take out a 4-year int'l next business day + accidental damage protection plan ("CarePack" in HP lingo). I have actually had reason to make use of it on my previous laptop (8470p, spilled Coke into it) - no issues in getting that fixed. Due to timing (this was during christmas) they had to come back a second time after mostly-fixing it at first; some minor parts weren't immediately available (they did get it back to working). But, this is the extra service that costs +¼ of the laptop itself — I have no idea as far as "normal" warranty handling.
SpacePortKnight 4y ago
I've seen your post as a comment before. For India, I recommend buying Dell / Lenovo if you really want on-site repairs for cheap, otherwise I recommend Asus. I recently bought Asus Zenbook 14 Oled (12th gen) over M1 MacBook Air and I absolutely love it. It has 75Wh battery, excellent speakers and with a nice 90Hz 14inch display. However, I can't use Fedora on it since sound over speaker doesn't work yet. Dell's Inspiron 14 is a decent purchase for around 65k ( with on-site & accidental damage warranty ) On a side note, my gaming laptop MSI GF 65 died and I was able to walk into a service centre in Bangalore, and they literally replaced the motherboard for free and returned it in 3 weeks. The entire process was extremely simple.
- kylehotchkiss 4y ago
  Are you sure this is India? I thought India had an Apple-owned service center in Bangalore. And their company-owned stores are coming eventually (Apple's consistently been meeting the local manufacturing requirements)
- ur-whale 4y ago
  > 14inch display. Yeah, but for serious dev work, 14 inches is just a flat out no. 16 inch is the bare minimum and already feels cramped.
  - selfmodruntime 4y ago
    Serious dev work is not done mostly on a small screen. Your laptop is a moveable computer that will be connected to your workstation monitor. I own a 14 inch macbook and rarely use it without a display.
    - ur-whale 4y ago
      If you use it hitched to a monitor, then why not have a proper workstation? The whole point of having a laptop is being able to use it on the go. I travel by train and plane extensively and I write code on it during the trips. 14 inches is unusable.
BatteryMountain 4y ago
Dell Latitudes are pretty great for mid-range and very affordable. You get tons of ports, a FHD screen in 14" variant, nvme ssd + tons of ram, plus you get service manuals for the hardware. Dell has pretty good support in most countries. Also, the UEFI/BIOS is actually pretty great, it gives you tons of control over the hardware! If you keep it plugged in most of the time and switch off battery savings and so on, it is quite a beast. I tend to run mine in the middle mode where it doesn't use turboboost but also doesn't down clock it too much, thus the fans are silent and the machine still very fast. Very happy with mine. If you are forced to pick between Dell and Lenovo, take the Dell. Skip all the other brands/model variants (even from Dell) as they are more consumer oriented (better speakers but no gigabit lan port...). If you need something with a beefy gfx card, then rather buy an Asus gaming laptop, but they tend to be heavy and noisy but packs quite a punch. If you are going to use Linux on it and value your sanity, do not take one with an nvidia chip (intel/amd chips works out of the box). If you were solely going to use windows, prefer one with an nvidia chip. If you can get a Ryzen 5/7 -based laptop at a good price, take it instead of an i5/i7. Lastly, most manufacturers, including Dell, usually use very basic OEM ram and ssd's and wifi chips. So it is worthwhile to swap out your ram with faster and bigger ram sticks, make sure they run in dual channel (so rather buy 2x16gb instead of 1x32gb), and buy a proper nvme ssd (I typically go for one of the samsung ones with 5 year warranty).
gigatexal 4y ago
I love my lenovo p14s. All amd, runs linux perfectly. shameless plug for my thoughts on the whole thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGmcnENnVqg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGmcnENnVqg
jgb1984 4y ago
Laptops are all together awful. I can't imagine working on one for more than a few hours. My self built desktop blows any laptop out of the water in speed, comfort, reliability, upgrade / repair potential and ergonomics (obviously ignoring portability).
- NorwegianDude 4y ago
  I personally hate traveling with my desktop setup... Everyone can probably agree that a desktop is better if you have the space, don't need to move it and doesn't mind a bit higer power consumption. A laptop has some clear usecases to. Desktop for work, laptop for when I travel and might have to work.
  - Lio 4y ago
    This is all personal but I prefer the compact layout and low travel of a laptop keyboard. That plus having a trackpad centrally located and a second screen below my main monitor really works for me. I haven’t used a desktop in 20 years. Horses for courses I guess.
    - lifeplusplus 4y ago
      Is there a keyboard with Mac like trackpad built in even better of it's split keyboard
- tymm 4y ago
  In terms of speed, at least when we look at mostly single-threaded work load (like most dev work is), a M2 Macbook Air is faster than every Desktop PC. Correct me if I'm wrong.
  - dagw 4y ago
    Eh. The 12900k still has the edge in most single threaded benchmarks, and the latest Threadripper Pro will easily crush it on multithreaded loads (all while drawing close to an order of magnitude more power). Also your MacBook Air will thermal throttle if under load for too long, while a desktop computer offers a lot more options for cooling. Further more a desktop computer gives you the option to use faster storage and more and faster RAM which might be very relevant in some scenarios. Plus there is the whole GPU/CUDA side of things which may or may not be relevant to you. All that being said, I'm typing this on an M1 MBP and the perceived day to day performance is better than any desktop computer I've owned, even if it will no doubt lose out a 'real' workstation when it comes to running 24 hour CFD simulations.
devilkin 4y ago
https://kde.slimbook.es/ https://kde.slimbook.es/ Linux powered out of the box, reasonably priced, great service.
teekert 4y ago
I listen to a lot of Jupiter Broadcasting podcasts [0], their content is Linux related. I hear a lot of positive things about the HP Dev One [1]. JB's Coder Radio is a nice podcast about Linux and Software Development [2], although they really like their macs (which to me shows they are pragmatic and realistic), they indeed highly issues with the m.X chip based macs and what good alternatives are. [0]: https://new.jupiterbroadcasting.com/ https://new.jupiterbroadcasting.com/ [1]: https://hpdevone.com/ https://hpdevone.com/ [2]: https://new.jupiterbroadcasting.com/show/coder-radio/480/ https://new.jupiterbroadcasting.com/show/coder-radio/480/ Note, I'm, linking to their new websites which are in beta but hey, lets stress-test them a bit ;)
- devilkin 4y ago
  Not available outside of the us, though
  - mmcnl 4y ago
    It's basically an HP EliteBook though. You can buy those almost anywhere in the world.
  - teekert 4y ago
    Ah you're right. Disappointing.
madsbuch 4y ago
I am happy with my Lenovo X1 extreme running pop os. It has been running for 4 years, just changed battery and hard-drive, which I could easily do myself. It is of high build quality. I terribly want to try out a system76 computer, but haven't had the chance yet.
- nunb 4y ago
  PopOS is awesome. It's what I use on my XY Thinkpad (repurposed Intel/hexa-core/12-HyperThreads/64GB/matte-screen/2TB(SSD+HDD)+256GbNVME/VGA/Trackpoint/USBC/laptop)! Nothing better imo, unless he[1] adds an E-Ink option! [1] https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/ https://www.xyte.ch/mods/x210-x2100/ [2] https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/196448/intel-core-i710710u-processor-12m-cache-up-to-4-70-ghz.html https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/196448/...
NorwegianDude 4y ago
You don't say where you are located, but unless you are in one of the few places where Dell doesn't offer on-site next business day support then XPS 13 is a great laptop. Their support is amazing: "We're not sure what is causing it, but we'll send someone to replace the whole motherboard tomorrow." "OH, your currently halfway across the world on a island? No problem, we'll be there tomorrow" I really don't understand how it's done. Clearly they must have parts distributed ahead of time. I'm just amazed that it's included in the price considering the cost of sending a technician out to a customer. The fact that even here on HN a lot of people think Apple's support is good suggests that Dell might be able to save a ton of money by lowering their support level, so I don't really get why they offer it.
- deepstack 4y ago
  * You don't say where you are located * I also would like to know the location. thepoet, would be good if you start commenting on this thread as it is on the front page of HN.
- weberer 4y ago
  Just make sure the model you're getting supports S3 sleep mode (AKA real sleep mode) before hand. A lot of the newer Dells don't. Its something the OEM needs to support in the BIOS, so you can't just fix it by installing a new distro.
  - fennecfoxy 4y ago
    Even if it does you still can't manually control the fan. Ahahaha, Dell, what a fucking joke.
    - chris11 4y ago
      I think my employers IT policies have a lot to do with it, but fans on my laptop do spin up in the middle of the night. It can be annoying.
  - treffer 4y ago
    As far as I understand that's an Intel thing. They deprecated it and it is not allowed for high security devices.... (I thibk HS3 profiles?) I have one of those DELLs for work. Don't.
webmobdev 4y ago
Frame.work makes modular and highly repairable laptops - https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/ If you prefer to purchase from a more mature company, check out Fujitso laptops - https://www.fujitsu.com/global/products/computing/pc/notebooks/product-finder/ https://www.fujitsu.com/global/products/computing/pc/noteboo...
dvko 4y ago
Lenovo Yoga Slim 7 with Arch Linux. Been on it (or similar Lenovo + Arch combination) for nearly a decade after my MacBook Pro broke. It just works.
lysecret 4y ago
XPS 15 using newest Ubuntu. 100% happy. Just get the nongpu version. Also newest Ubuntu is important (22.04). Even bluetooth and open wifi works really well now haha. (Those were my biggest pain points)
dagw 4y ago
Dell business level support is the best I've seen. My dad broke his laptop while overseas on a business trip and Dell sent a local service tech to his hotel to fix it.
- dagw 4y ago
  Should add that this was probably 10 years ago now that I think about it, so I have no idea if it is still the case.
napier 4y ago
All I want is a laptop with mac quality case and components, magsafe equivalent and most of all... a direct sunlight readable screen (transreflective or something new and exotic). But honestly would happily take just about anything with a sunlight readable screen. Not trapped in an office, would like not to be trapped indoors when it's bright out.
blueflow 4y ago
A few years ago i invested a full month's wage into buying leasing return thinkpads from ebay. Its basically pre-selected business hardware for few bucks. The hardware is from around 2010, so its fine for everything except gaming and electron apps.
jonahbenton 4y ago
Fedora works beautifully on Thinkpads. And Lenovo next day support plans, in the numerous geographies in which they are available, really are that. Fedora is quite different from MacOS, to be sure. But if you use package management, the terminal, and VSCode- those bits are pretty much the same.
juicypt 4y ago
This is tangential to the discussion, but are there any laptops that won't heat up your legs/groin when used on your lap? I remember owning an Asus UL30VT [1] 10 or 15 years ago, and I could have it on my lap for hours without feeling any heat regardless of the CPU load. It was a bit crappy in other ways, but a joy to use on the go! It seems like nowadays all manufacturers try to keep the components cool, but don't care much about the external chassis temperature. Even laptops that use ultra low voltage CPUs usually go for fanless setups instead of trying to improve external temperatures. [1] https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asus-UL30VT.27130.0.html https://www.notebookcheck.net/Asus-UL30VT.27130.0.html
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- maccard 4y ago
  I know the topic of this thread is not-apple, but the M1 Macbook is lap friendly even under most loads (except for extended gaming I found).
- throw__away7391 4y ago
  The new MacBook Pro M1 is by far the very best I've ever used in this regard. It feels like my body heat contributes more to chassis temperature than the CPU does.
- api 4y ago
  I’ve heard the term “weenie roaster” for hot laptops.
softwareoiu 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
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heurisko 4y ago
I have a Lenovo L14 with a Ryzen processor. I switched over from Intel to Ryzen starting at the 4500u series.
ruslan 4y ago
I use Lenovo Ideapad 3 Gaming (AMD Ryzen 5) with FreeBSD on top. Pretty much happy with it.
jeroenhd 4y ago
I'm running a Thinkpad P1 Gen 3. It's built for workstation purposes (has a dedicated NVIDIA GPU branded as "Quadro" though VRAM is limited). It's got a 10th gen Intel CPU and so far it's been working great with Manjaro. I especially like the upgradeability of the RAM (added 16GB to make it 32GB, can switch to 32+32 in the future) and the ability to use two (replaceable) M.2 SSDs, which is something fewer and fewer "professional" laptops come with. The built-in fingerprint reader (which works well with Linux!) is a nice bonus. The trackpad is nice, the keyboard is good, the screen is 1080p with 4k as an option for more expensive models. GNOME's performance switcher (power saving/balanced/performance) works with the motherboard as of a year or so ago. One thing I had to fix manually was the use of the special function keys (Fn+F9/10/11). I had to map them manually by adding some config to /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb mapping the scan codes I found by running evtest to the right key codes manually. Not a problem if you never use Fn+F9/10/11 to answer calls or open chat, but I just wanted them to work. I have some issues, though I suspect my setup is to blame. Sometimes Linux doesn't boot when GDM takes control of the display. Haven't bothered figuring that one out yet. Nvidia's hardware is also a problem child as always; the external display runs through the Nvidia GPU, massively increasing heat and power draw the moment I hook up an external display. If you don't plan on doing simulations or playing games, I'd recommend staying clear of models with an Nvidia GPU, if you can. Fan noise is very annoying in Windows, where it'll spin up for no good reason unless you put it in the slowest power saving mode. In Linux this isn't an issue, though your experience may differ depending on your choice of distro and power configuration. I imagine the 12th gen Intel chips will blow this thing out of the water in terms of performance, but I plan on sticking with this laptop for a few years at least. It's more than fast enough. As a bonus, I've heard good things about their extended warranty. Over here, they'll send parts ahead and then send a tech out to replace them for you. Someone I know had a touchpad that stopped working well and although it was probably a five minute fix with a standard screwdriver, they still sent a tech over to do the fix for him. Took maybe two or three days for everything to be done here but I've heard varying stories about their timeliness from different countries.
taspeotis 4y ago
I got work to buy me the SKU with the 3080 plus 3 year on-site warranty. https://www.lenovo.com/au/en/p/laptops/legion-laptops/legion-7-series/legion-7-gen-6-(16-inch-amd)/len101g0011 https://www.lenovo.com/au/en/p/laptops/legion-laptops/legion... It runs about six copies of Rider without issue. Maybe I will take it out of low power mode if I have to run a seventh. The backlighting sparks joy.
300bps 4y ago
Laptop, desktop, chromebook, hardware support, doesn’t mean anything to me. For the past 8 years I’ve used nothing but virtual desktops. I connect to it from anywhere in the world on just about any device and I have my entire development environment available to me. I can spin up copies of it to try something out and then revert to a previous image. I can create full fidelity copies of it in minutes anytime I want to. I cannot imagine going back to using physical hardware directly on the desktop anymore than I could a server.
lwertz 4y ago
My last laptop purchase was a comparatively cheap £300 HP something-or-other back in 2018, to avoid using my work laptop for personal projects. It only has 8GB RAM, a 256GB SSD and an 8x core i5, but I find it perfectly adequate for my development needs. I'm running the latest Ubuntu on it, and it works nicely for running simultaneously an instance of VS Code, and a Windows VM in VirtualBox, and Firefox. I mostly do reverse engineering projects, and development in node and C++. It's been reliably fine for this, and I'm not worried about it being damaged or lost as it was relatively inexpensive. The camera is awful and the sound isn't great. And I can't run anything that requires massive computational power like AI models, but that's not what I'm really interested in. I would advise just getting the cheapest laptop that does what you need. The expensive Apple kit is unnecessary in my opinion.
jbirer 4y ago
Huawei Matebook 14 is pretty good.
seydor 4y ago
Huawei's macbook lookalike is cheap and overall pretty great
thastings 4y ago
Sorry if this was already mentioned, a quick search didn't turn up exact matches to what would be my $0.02. A simple and relatively safe option would be to go into a computer store that has many machines that can also be tried. Look for a machine with something like 11th gen Intel or AMD 5600U/5800U CPU-s with enough RAM for your needs and decent build quality – this is why it'd be the best to do it in person. If you find a machine you're happy with regarding its specs and build quality, just throw a reliable GNU+Linux OS on it (Debian with Budgie has been my go-to choice lately), and enjoy your hardware. If you plan on gaming, AMD discrete GPUs will cause less headaches, but nVidia drivers can also be easily installed if you follow the tutorial for your distro of choice. TLDR: 1–2 year old hardware in a decent chassis running GNU+Linux will likely make you pretty happy for a lot less money. EDIT: I see Dell being recommended everywhere... All the dead motherboards I've seen in laptops were only in Dells. If you choose a Dell, be sure to get some excellent return policy with it, but even then you may be left without a laptop for a while in the case of failure. This is not the case with business-oriented models though, but Asus, Lenovo, MSI, and even Clevo have proven to be more reliable in my experience. The build quality vaires between brands and model lines, so that you need to experience in person.
what-imright 4y ago
You could move to a country that has Apple authorized service centers. Seriously. Or you could get over the scratch and continue living your life. If you believe in that sort of thing.
nunb 4y ago
Shilling XYtech's repurposed Intel/12-core/64GB/matte-screen/2TB/VGA/Trackpoint/USBC/ laptops! Nothing better imo, unless he adds an E-Ink option!
jnsaff2 4y ago
Sorry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...
1337shadow 4y ago
I have Lenovo which offers a great on-site support, have been using Thinkpad X since X201 or something and now am extremely happy with Thinkpad P14s with 42G of RAM and especially an AMD Ryzen 7 Pro with 16 threads and which provides much better 3D hardware than what Intel provides, and still much cheaper. Only problem is battery that is not as great as Thinkpad X when you can upgrade to a double battery in addition to the one that's inside the laptop itself. I use Linux.
jansan 4y ago
I cannot believe that it is so hard to even get a laptop without a numberpad. What are those manufacturers thinking? Apple has been delivering their laptops without numberpad for ages and it seems to work really well. At least give me the option to get rid of those (to me) usseless keys which also keep the touchpad from being centered to the screen.
jiggywiggy 4y ago
It's still a Mac. But the i love the MacBook pro series from 2016-17. With ssd. Before they took away all the plugs. If my m1 would break I would probably just buy one of those from a reputable refurbished company. They are affordable, often between 500-800 (mostly dependent on hard drive size), and great specs. My new m1 theoretically is better, but I experience much more issues. And if any issues I can deal with the refurbished company, of which some offer great service.
- omnimus 4y ago
  I have both and the cheapest air replaced the pro instantly. The pro is heavy and loud and hot and less performant. But i didnt run into any issues so i guess lucky me.
  - jiggywiggy 4y ago
    Yeah maybe it's luck. But have to restart my m1 air every evening, memory just gets out of control, then starts to blow up and get really hot and slow. Hopefully next OS version has some improvements.
dethos 4y ago
I work on an Tuxedo's "Infinity Book Pro 14" and I have no complains, it has been a wonderful laptop for software development (on Linux).
jvanderbot 4y ago
Had frame.work not been proven out yet?
lazerl0rd 4y ago
I'd give the MSI Creator Z16 a look. Albeit, battery life is not amazing on [most] x86 platforms (compared to ARM platforms) though it should last notably longer on Linux.
- regretMSIbad 4y ago
  I recently bought a Z16 and was extremely disappointed with it. Constant BSOD, terrible bloatware. MSI drivers are required for basic laptop functionality, however installing them conflicts with NVIDIA... The laptop does not charge over USB-C by design. Terrible waste of money. I wish I could get my money back.
strzibny 4y ago
ThinkPads... I recommend latest X1 Carbon. Better and more healthy ergonomy with a trackpoint + more durable chachi that handles heat better.
- KernelPryanic 4y ago
  Agree. Few years ago I asked my employer to change Mac for something else and I got the 7th gen (Intel 8th gen processor) X1 Carbon, I fall in love and now I bought the latest 10th gen model (Intel 12th gen) and I very much like it. Super light and silent, great keyboard and also I like the touchpad on the latest model, it become even better. Build quality is the best, hinges are balanced very well that when you shake the laptop screen doesn’t move a bit but you can still open it with one hand. From the cons - it’s hot comparing to the 7th gen and also the battery life is slightly lower.
camgunz 4y ago
I bought an MBP 14" (Max, 32 core GPU, 32GB RAM, 2TB SSD) which I mostly don't regret. The things that give me pause are the battery life is only (only, haha) 9 hours or so, the resolution isn't ideal (the integer scaling options are either tiny or gigantic) and it was... $3,700? If I'd bumped down to the pro I would've saved money and gotten better battery life. When I made this decision, I was between the Framework and a ThinkPad P14s Gen 2 AMD. I still think I made the right choice, but I think the P14s would've been a great option. Lenovo hasn't released an AMD Gen 3 for the P14s, so you'd have to live with the ThinkPad T14 Gen 3 AMD instead (they're the same laptop, it turns out). It's: - Ryzen 6850U - 32GB RAM - 14" 3840x2400 IPS Matte display (500 nits, 100% DCI-P3) - 1080p camera - $1,600 The extra nice thing about this is you get Ryzen and USB4, which lets you use eGPUs and the like. --- All that said, I can't at all vouch for Lenovo support. If this is the defining characteristic for you I'd do more research before picking one of these up.
- gmokki 4y ago
  I got T14s AMD gen2 a year ago, with 4k display, 32GB. Swapped the wifi card to Intel ax210, since back then year ago the realtek was not yet supported by kernel. Since end of mast year, after few bios updates, it has worked flawlessly. Battery lasts long with 5850U while using and suspend works properly and can last many days when not used. The new models with Ryzen 6000 series look to be na excellent upgrade with usb4 support.
  - camgunz 4y ago
    Oh yeah good call out: swap the WiFi card, even when it's supported the Realtek one is slower.
Sin2x 4y ago
FYI, Ubuntu has a list of certified laptops: https://ubuntu.com/certified/laptops https://ubuntu.com/certified/laptops
- timbit42 4y ago
  But who wants to run Ubuntu with Snaps?
  - Sin2x 4y ago
    Logically, if it's Ubuntu-certified, it should run other distros well too regarding hardware compatibility.
jmartrican 4y ago
Every laptop I've gotten has been good for programming. I been using laptops to code for 20 years. They were mostly HP and Dell. Recently I switched to MSI.
lukaszkups 4y ago
I've just switched from Surface Book 2 to Zenbook 14 OLED (UX3402ZA) Pros: - beautiful, bright display with 16:10 aspect ratio - comfortable keyboard with backlight - pretty decent battery life for my programming needs - port selection (1 x USB 3.2 (2 Gen), 2x Thunderbolt 4, HDMI and audio jack) - good performance - beautiful design Cons: - if you try to run some games on it (it has Iris Xe Graphic card) - it will become hot very quickly I've choose Zenbook, because I had one in the past (UX32LN model) - and it still holds up pretty well and works flawlessly while being used for office stuff by my wife (it will have 7 years now)
janfoeh 4y ago
Apologies in advance for being off-topic, but — is it just my perception, or has it become increasingly common over the last year or two to end questions with _in <current year>_? I vaguely associate that with SEO spam sites, and I feel a little pinch each time I see an actual person pick up that pattern. It is as if a black hat SEO trope has invaded our consciousness.
- bee_rider 4y ago
  I read it as a general expression of dissatisfaction with the state of things.
- Kamq 4y ago
  It's common to add {year} to queries to find current answers to things. This aids in that practice.
  - janfoeh 4y ago
    That is precisely my point, yeah - a Google search term "hack" that has spread into common parlance, even in places where it serves no purpose.
    - Kamq 4y ago
      > even in places where it serves no purpose It helps other people find things (for the next year or so).
- aliqot 4y ago
  also adding my own nitpick... *its 02022
workingon 4y ago
just get a dell workstation. the precision ones are good. just buy a new one every 2 years when the keyboard/power starts failing.
parasubvert 4y ago
I am a 25 year Apple user but wanted to work on VR more alongside my normal dev work while remaining portable. The ASUS ROG Zephyrus G15 inch is an excellent laptop. Fast, AMD Ryzen 9, NVIDIA 3070 or 3080, 32 GB RAM up to 48 GB, good battery, decent keyboard and trackpad, lots of ports, fast HDR 1440p screen. only two issues from my late 2020 model: fans get hot and loud when you push it (this may have gotten better), and previous versions to 2022 had no camera.
mostlyRice 4y ago
HP Dev One!! It's a recently launched laptop, specially focused on developers and comes with PopOS. I've haven't seen a single bad review of this laptop. Only available in US though. https://hpdevone.com/ https://hpdevone.com/
neverminder 4y ago
Dell Precision 7 series or the Lenovo workstation equivalent whatever they call it. These two options have the official Linux support, everything else just gets progressively worse.
ktpsns 4y ago
Thinkpad X1 (Yoga/Carbon) do great for heavy use developer laptops. I use them since the first generation, with Linux as operating system. Never had serious issues with drivers, even wacom, digitizer and auto display rotation are working nowadays, not to speak of USB-3, fingerprint sensors, etc. The whole device is a no-brainer and just works.
- kwanbix 4y ago
  Yeah, after many, many problems with Dell's and HP's (I worked at IBM and we absorved thouthands of such machines on outsourcing deals), I recommend ThinkPads, Series X, T, P.
- chunk_waffle 4y ago
  A place I work used to order them for developers, they're awesome little machines but not without their issues too. We had constant issue with them no longer charging for people, something on the motherboard related to charging would just die sometimes machines only a few weeks old would do this. You'd start your day, try to start up your laptop and it would be dead and require sending back to Lenovo (which to their credit they would fix and return within a reasonable time frame.)
  - kwanbix 4y ago
    In the company I currently work, we have the option of MacBook Pro's or ThinkPad X1 Carbon. I never seen such a problem. I am not saying that it does not exist.
- shp0ngle 4y ago
  I have looked at Thinkpad x1 carbon, and they are so expensive! People complain about Apple Tax, but the x1 Carbon is so much more expensive for what it does.
  - camgunz 4y ago
    Yeah there's a premium. For me the T14 is still thin/light enough, and it has an Ethernet jack (!), and it's a lot cheaper.
Saphyel 4y ago
My personal laptop is Dell XPS13 Developer ed. It's nearly a year old and works like a charm I can install anything I want, I can watch whatever. Battery wise last a lot.. 5-8h average depending on what I'm doing. At work I'm force to use a MacBook, a lot of dev tools don't work very well or doesn't work, every dev has different weird issues, every other day we have a different thing that doesn't work some of us had to request to replace the MBP for a different one because it was very slow and the battery only last 2h if you are lucky.
- briandear 4y ago
  2 hour battery life on a Mac? That’s approaching unbelievable unless they are a decade old.
  - kylehotchkiss 4y ago
    My 2019 16' MacBook pro does about 2 hours of battery with only 488 battery cycles. i9 processor with AMD Radeon Pro 5500M. I'm just doing the most basic dev stuff. Generally a Chrome instance with ~20 tabs, VSC, and a Next.js process. I can't use it on my lap too long, it's hot. The fan never stops. Sometimes I look in the activity monitor to see why, but it's never something specific. A chrome tab using too much CPU or something. It's been the fastest self-depreciating machine I've used. I recently switched to a M2 Air for personal laptop. Same exact workflow and tools results in zero heat, and the battery can do a few evenings of coding without needing to be charged. It's a gamechanger.
  - xdavidliu 4y ago
    if it's 2 hours that's almost certainly gonna be one of the Intel macbooks, and probably several years old at that. The new Apple Silicon ones have batteries running for many times that easily.
agentultra 4y ago
I still enjoy the Thinkpad T series. They’re older and not sold new but they’re tough as rocks and meant to be user serviceable. Plus, reduce, reuse and all that. If you’re doing bleeding edge graphics engine programming or ML it wouldn’t be my first choice unless you can deal with an external GPU.
- propogandist 4y ago
  The T series is still available for purchase, it’s a workhorse for corporate use cases and the most popular model for corporate IT deployments. There’s the P series which is a bit more premium and usually better specs. Just beware of overheating & throttling issues with some high end P/X models, especially with 12th gen intel chipsets.
  - agentultra 4y ago
    My bad, you're right. I usually just buy them second hand. Which is a pretty good way to go about it. The after market for parts is pretty strong. They're plentiful and refurbished units are cheap enough that you can get a backup or two. With a decent backup system you can clone your setup to a new machine fast.
dre85 4y ago
I bought a fairly beefed up Dell xps 15 a year ago and put Ubuntu on it as I usually do. It's an amazing laptop with the only drawback being shockingly crappy battery life. Not sure if this is the laptop's fault though or Linux power management. I mostly use it docked so it's not a big deal for me. Overall I'm super satisfied.
benjaminwootton 4y ago
I agree they aren’t great with repairs. In the UK it takes a week for it to leave the Apple Store after you drop it off. They then repair it quickly in the Czech Republic then ship it back. It can then take 1-2 weeks stuck at customs or at some UPS sorting centre with no updates to tracking. It always feels like a 48 hour repair turns into a 3 week frustrating wait for your laptop back.
edude03 4y ago
While I am personally a heavy apple user - I'd say for a developer it actually comes down to are there any good non Mac Operating Systems for developers? The XPS 15, Lenovo X1 Extreme, Rog Zephyrus, and Razer Blade Advanced are all laptops I've personally used for development, and would mostly recommend, however I find windows hard to use for development and linux support varies of course. Personally, I'd give apple another chance, but if that's not an option, The XPS 15 is probably the best bet.
Ken_At_EM 4y ago
I am so dissatisfied with the state of the non-Apple PC world, particularly laptops, that I am tempted to do the insane thing and start a PC company.
simonebrunozzi 4y ago
Apple has a great opportunity to compete with Dell (and their XPS laptops) to re-conquer the mindshare of prosumers and IT professionals. The Apple hardware is IMHO superior (in particular their trackpad), but the customer support is generally pretty bad, even when you live next to a physical Apple store.
ModernMech 4y ago
I have a surface studio laptop and it’s great. Keyboard has good travel, trackpad has a nice click to it, build quality is sturdy, battery life gets me through the day, performance is great, and it has a pen/touch display to boot that folds down. I also have a MacBook Pro, and I much prefer the surface. As far as support, I bought an extended support contract from Microsoft that I haven’t had to use yet, but I’ve gone through the replacement process with them in the past and it has been seamless. Highly recommended.
faut_reflechir 4y ago
I dev on a System76 Pangolin running Pop! OS. My only complaint is that there's no Ubuntu terminal that I like as much as iTerm.
- azemetre 4y ago
  Have you looked at Alacritty[1]? Once I adopted tmux, I really enjoyed using Alacritty. [1] https://github.com/alacritty/alacritty https://github.com/alacritty/alacritty
AtomicOrbital 4y ago
Dell Precision 7530 i7-8750H 32gb ram ... on ebay for less than $950 tax and shipping included ... its super fast ... been running Ubuntu ... very happy
- ffur6r47r54 4y ago
throwaway23236 4y ago
I love my Lenovo ThinkPad. For a laptop, the keyboard is amazing and I have been using it for 4 years now without any major issue. I did have the CPU fan die on me, but with Lenovo's practically 10/10 repairability score for 40 bucks I overnighted another CPU fan, just unscrewed the back and replaced it myself.
- DecoPerson 4y ago
  Concur. My 2020 ThinkPad Carbon X1 is so well designed and is of excellent build quality. In terms of laptops, I love it so much, even more than my 2011 MacBook Air. The keyboard is great, the screen is great, the Lenovo software is un-instrusive, the battery lasts quite a while, the charging port is durable, the body is durable, the dock drivers actually work, it feels nice to hold, … I could go on. I’ve done quite a bit of developing and field-debugging with it. Haven’t had any complaints, beyond the unavoidable “My neck hurts.” and “Why is Windows choosing now to prompt me to use OneDrive, scan for viruses, update its search index, and install some mystery .NET runtime updates!? I only have 30% battery left!!”
  - throwaway23236 4y ago
    I also have the Carbon, I believe 7th Gen. It was the first one to offer a 4k screen. I ordered the laptop with the LTE card as well. I use it for school, coding, and editing my wife's photos she takes with her camera. It has been a very solid machine. My only wish would have been more RAM. When I upgrade I will probably get the Extreme so that I can edit videos and run more VMs. :) It's so nice to just open up my laptop and have internet everywhere without the need to tether.
- legitster 4y ago
  My 8 year old Thinkpad is still my daily driver! I think the X1 is a bit overrated - I prefer their T-series laptops for repairability and durability. You can generally pick some coming off of a corporate lease for a screaming deal.
- topaz0 4y ago
  I've had mine for 5.5 years. Still working great.
PAMANOCH 4y ago
If you want lightweight alternatives to Macbooks, just beware that most of the small factor Windows laptops emit much greater fan noise comparing to M1/M2 Macs under load, although the Macs will probably reach similar levels on full load after a while. Recent platform designs target much higher power limit to achieve optimal performance, while the manufacturers keep pushing that envelope frame on sub 15" machines, creating conflicts between form and factor. Many recent Thinkpad and XPS machines have difficulties cooling the components. I use an Alienware X17 for works including demanding graphics tasks. I know that Alienware does not have great reputation among enthusiasts, but at least for me it is pleasurable to use. Very decent build quality, sleek exterior design after lights off, amazing Cherry low-profile mechanical keyboard. On light modeling and compiling tasks there's barely any noise coming from the fan systems, and on higher load it isn't much louder comparing to M1 Max/Pro Macbooks, with performance being top-notch for sure. Overall very enjoyable experience comparing to lighter design systems, but the trade-offs are obvious too - 3kg+ weight, and the battery drains fast due to the aggressive power targets on CPU/GPU. It's clearly not for everyone, but if you need performance without workstation features (Quadro, ECC, Xeons), it's definitely worth a try.
pwpw 4y ago
Last year I became annoyed with some of the MacOS limitations and decided I wanted a laptop capable of running Linux. I settled on the Thinkpad X1 Nano. It weighs less than a MacBook Air, has a matte HiDPI screen, which is great for sunlight, a built in camera shutter, and most importantly, a great keyboard experience. I also splurged and added a 5G modem. The laptop is spill and dust proof and can clearly take more of a beating than a MacBook could. It's designed to be rugged while traveling. This laptop has been an absolute delight. It feels like nothing is in my backpack, which is a nice complement to my stronger desktop at home. The performance is good enough for my development workflow, and the battery is fine to last during my workday. The only negative I would say is that the battery life is noticeably shorter than the M1 MacBook Air I previously had, but it's not terrible. Just not amazing. The laptop runs relatively quietly, which was another factor I wanted. I'm running Fedora Linux on it, which I've come to enjoy more than MacOS. If you're looking for a nicer laptop to rival a MacBook, you'd be hard pressed to find a better option in my opinion. I spent about $1300 in total on this laptop.
Syncbo 4y ago
ROG g14 , handles all the dev task and build quality is solid ! Been using it for over 2 years and zero problems as of now , apart from the sleep thing . Had to switch to hibernate mode
mmargerum 4y ago
I mostly use Macs and dislike most windows laptops. That said, I am impressesed with this ThinkPad I have to use for a client.
tommilukkarinen 4y ago
Legion gaming laptops (and I guess all similar) are fast. If they can run games, they can run compiler. At least this is an issue for me, compiling server on my own laptop takes time if there's not enough power.
foxdie99 4y ago
thinkpad p14s AMD
m_st 4y ago
Consider the Dell XPS15. It's a great laptop with a great display, keyboard and performance. I still have Macs at home, but for business work and development the XPS15 is fantastic.
jokethrowaway 4y ago
I tried a surface and it's a sh*tshow. Linux support is bad and windows is a joke. I'm thinking the framework laptop if I really have too - but at this point my main problem is battery longevity. I don't think I would buy a non arm laptop at this point, so apple it is. That said, I don't like the idea of buying apple too and that's why I'm buying just a desktop pc
deleted 4y ago
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smallstepforman 4y ago
I'm joining the discussion late, but can convey my experience with HP Omen 16 (Advantage Edition). My primary requirement was full sizes cursor keys, and the PgUp/Down, Home/End/Insert/Delete keys. Proper keys are essential for developers. The keyboard is very good. The laptop has a full set of I/O (including 3 USB-A connectors). AMD Advantage Edition has proper Linux driver support (no nVidia), and the built in Vega is OK for low power mode. However, the laptop is not without it's flaws. The power supply is a chunky brick, there is a driver bug with the Elan Touchpad (so you're constantly hitting Fn-F11 to disable/reneable touch pad when you dont have a mouse), and the dolts put a Pause key where Delete is (and put delete on top row, to the right of power button). The designer should be hit with a bag of potatoes, it's idiotic. Otherwise, great silent laptop, works well in Windows 11, Linux and even Haiku (minus an ACPI powerup delay, but once it finally boots, it flies). 7 out of 10. (-1 for Pause/Delete/Power key placement, -1 for Elan Touchpad drivers, and -1 for placing 4 stupid stickers on the palm rest area). 7 out of 10 may look low, however I'd give other laptops an even lower score. My old 2014 MacBookPro would get 8 out of 10, and that is the best laptop I ever had. Sadly, not suitable in 2022.
deliriumchn 4y ago
Thinkpads are very good, I almost got myself one after around 5 years of working on macbooks, but in the end I got myself zephyrus g14 (2022 model). Surprisingly good battery life, good display (anti glare as well) and keyboard, amazing touchpad (very similar to macbook's one) and I actually like how win11 works on laptops after spending one day on tweaking settings and looks. Fantastic machine that performs as well as, or even better than, maxed out 14" mbp
rmrf100 4y ago
I will vote Thinkpad X1C.

chriotte 4y ago
He is probably referring to x1 extreme. I have a 3rd gen and it’s like a jet engine and space heather had a baby. Even after undervolting in bios, limiting cpu frequency in windows and only using it for very light jobs it’s super noisy. Not to mention the max 5 hour battery life… This chassis with an AMD cpu and no dedicated GPU would be perfect, but I’ve had enough and a M2 MacBook Air is on its way from Apple.
- jyrkesh 4y ago
  Nah, I had an older X1 Carbon as a PM for work, 2nd or 3rd gen. It one of the periods that Intel was screwing up thermal management: between the fan, the coil whine, and the CPU clock throttling, it was a _terrible_ laptop. And by no means did I need a hardcore machine, (too) much of my job was email, docs, spreadsheets, and GitHub. So it really had no excuse. It also coincided with some _terrible_ decisions that Lenovo made as a half-assed response to the touch bar, among other things. The "touch bar" was essentially just backlit capacitive buttons hardcoded to a couple different functions, they nerfed the red mouse pointer thing in the middle to the point that it was too squishy to use with any accuracy; and they merged the click buttons into the touchpad and used terrible software heuristics to try and figure out what you wanted. Oh, and it would wake up and burn its battery out for no reason. BUT I played with a 5th-ish gen a couple years later, and they'd rolled everything back. The owner really liked it, I expect in large part because Intel tocked back to a CPU that wasn't overheating by design. On paper, they're spec'd out pretty well, but if you need the "real juice" I still know people that swear by their older T series. But I don't know how much the newer ones have sacrificed the vision.
nirimda 4y ago
Do CPUs make a noise? I thought they were dead silent and any noise is the fan or a rotating disk.
- jraph 4y ago
  Not sure if this is the CPU, or something in the motherboard, or the integrated GPU, but yes, you can somehow hear activity outside the fan and the rotating disks. I clearly hear some quiet clicks when hovering messages or folders in Thunderbird both on my X1 Carbon Gen 9 and my HP Elitebook 640 G6. It's more obvious on the HP. It sounds like a silent HDD writing something, except I don't have HDDs in these computers. Possible related bug: [1] I remember hearing activity on a Pentium II laptop (which had a Silicon Graphics graphics card) and I think on a Pentium II tower with a Voodoo 2 card too, years ago. The noise was quite obvious to me, it was more similar to the Coil Whine noise from a GPU recorded by LTT [2] I hope I'm not cursing you if you hadn't noticed until now. [1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1730423 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1730423 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP73edpQwgc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP73edpQwgc

Theodores 4y ago

I also recommend Lenovo, including their Chromebooks. Yes, for development, on Linux. This surprised me too, I can open my IDE which runs on Linux and have my Android and ChromeOS apps. Yes, only 8Gb of RAM but they are offering Chromebooks with twice that amount, which is enough for anyone, right?!? I do not need sound but the audio on my Lenovo "Flex 5" is awesome. No complaints about the keyboard, trackpad or screen. Fantastic that my Chromebook is, it is only with an 11th gen CPU, and a mere i5. I have only discovered it is good for development out of laziness, the Chromebook is in the front room and not in the study. I start researching something whilst taking a break and, with that terminal window so close by, I give things a go. I have another recommendation - Huawei. The trick is to buy from their website and not via a retailer. This is because there will be a deal where you might get a monitor or other accessory bundled in. I have the Huawei ultrabook from 2020 (Matebook X) and that has a low power CPU and is not my development machine. It is my official 'research' machine. I have this directly connected with a Thunderbolt cable to a Huawei Matebook 16s 2022 edition. This has the 12th gen i7 with many cores and plenty of performance for running whatever you want. The thunderbolt networking and Barrier/Synergy means that I have access to my files and screens from either machine at speeds that make wifi feel like dial up networking. There is much to recommend about this arrangement, particularly since the high speed network drops down to wifi if the cable is unplugged. I also have the DNS rigged so that both machines 'resolve' globally, with my files available on whatever network is available. Regarding the Huawei Matebook 16s, it has a 16" 3:2 display with 2520 pixels across. This means I can run 1:1 pixels with no scaling and still be able to work with my IDE effectively. As mentioned, I have my 'research' machine (Matebook X) to do browsing and testing, with magic keyboard/mouse sharing thanks to Barrier. Even though I am using the 'development' machine for commpilation, running DBs and the IDE, the sleeker Matebook X is the device I am physically using. Sometimes reviewers place importance on features that do not matter to the developer. All laptops are a design compromise and you take your choices. I don't play games or wish to be tempted by gaming. Right now I don't do anything in 3D so I needed a GPU as much as a fish needs a bicycle. I also did not want the i9 version which wants 135W of USB-C power. The single core speed was not 'better'. Plus throttling could happen. Anyway, the Huawei Matebook 16s has a gorgeous screen for programming, but the gamer or content creator might complain about the refresh/latency/colours. I don't care, I just want pixels that are abundant. The aluminium case is not Dell creaky plastic with a rocket engine roaring away. The keyboard/trackpad are great but the speakers are not. I am happy with that because I really did not buy the machine for games/Netflix/video editing or anything else where I 'need' something as good as Lenovo's MaxxAudio(r). YMMV, I have been given many XPS machines over the years, none of which I have 'bonded with'. Although Lenovo is my goto brand, for absolute quality, bang per buck and a nice change, I can't recommend Huawei highly enough. Ubuntu worked perfectly out the box on the Matebook X and on the 12th gen 16s I had to disable suspend, because it wasn't waking up. Actually I did not want the machine going to sleep anyway, so I have not investigated further. A lot of shade has been thrown Huawei's way over the years. I just want to write my best code and I chuckle at the thought of those senile politicians trying to tell me what phone/computer I have.

kzrdude 4y ago
That's a shame. Maybe you could still sell it (pass on the principles to someone with no startup to run) and get a better laptop. Thanks for the elaboration.
movover 4y ago
I'm curious, do you have a 11th gen or 12th gen Framework? I have a 12th gen 1280P Framework which runs Pop!_OS that I received a month ago, and have yet to run into a single issue of any kind. I wonder if the issues you've faced are due to being an early adopter, wherein they may have fixed some of those issues with their second revision. I also run a startup from it, wherein it's my software development machine when I don't feel like sitting at my desktop. It would need to be flawless in order to accomplish that as I can't really tolerate any downtime due to computer issues especially when I have a fully functioning high-end desktop, and flawless it has been. In fact, this is the first laptop that doesn't make me miss my desktop from being too slow or otherwise not performing the way I'd like. Charging works regardless of the laptop being on or off, it performs beyond my expectations with no thermal issues while pushing the processor to its limit (something other laptops have always failed at for me), and the various expansion cards all work very well regardless of what configuration they're in. Overall, I've been regarding it as one of the best purchases I've made recently. After a month of ownership and using it over my desktop, I can honestly say that I picked the right laptop. I would lambaste the laptop if it had issues, but I can't think of one time over the past month where it's been problematic. This doesn't even touch on the fact that if I were to have an issue, Framework's support has seemed to be very responsive based on others' reports (especially for a startup), and the fact that I can continue to use the laptop or even just have it in my possession while whichever replacement part is being shipped out. This alone would make me choose this laptop over any other.
newaccount74 4y ago
To be fair, the widely praised 16" Macbook Pro had a very similar issue. The battery did not charge via USB-C when computer is off and lid is closed, if I recall correctly. I don't know if they fixed it, in practise my computer is almost never off. There is also an issue where the built-in webcam stops working and you need to restart the computer to get it to work again. Considering how much I spent on the machine I was hoping not to be bothered by issues like this...
- windowsrookie 4y ago
  That issue was fixed last year (2 months after the MacBook was released). https://www.macrumors.com/2021/12/07/macos-monterey-12-1-bug-fixes/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/12/07/macos-monterey-12-1-bug...
telarson 4y ago
I haven't had the same issues with my framework. I'm running an Intel 11-gen i5 version of a framework I bought in Feb of '22. Sure the battery life sucks for Fedora and the trackpad is a overly sensitive but overall it's worked fine for me. I complained to them about a noisy fan and they sent me a new one. Perhaps there's some variability in the build quality between machines or batches. I've been happy with my purchase.

Rebelgecko 4y ago

From my perspective using a 12th gen on Fedora 36, which is allegedly the best supported Linux flavor (although Windows on the Framework doesn't have many of these issues so I'm considering installing it instead): * Horrific battery life. I don't actually mind that the battery life under light usage is in the 6-7 hours neighborhood. What I do mind is that the battery life when the laptop isn't being used is abysmal. When I shut the lid, I lose 20% of the battery every day. Since I got the Framework to supplement a desktop, that really isn't acceptable. Fedora 36 doesn't do hibernate out of the box, but on OSes where that's doable battery life while inactive should be better * The trackpad scrolling is annoyingly fast, and I haven't found a way to change it (on my mac I can just change the scroll speed under mouse settings, but Fedora doesn't expose that option) * Speaking of the settings app, the settings app FREQUENTLY causes the laptop to lock up. This is a known issue and might only affect certain hardware configs, but it is super annoying. * Brightness buttons don't work out of the box. Only way to use them is to disable the laptop's built in brightness sensor * Don't love the fn key placement but maybe I'll get used to it over time

0x38B 4y ago
My Arch Linux install running Sway loses a few percent overnight (max 10-20%). This is with deep sleep enabled (1) in kernel parameters. My Framework has an 11th gen i5. 1: https://community.frame.work/t/framework-and-popos/2898 https://community.frame.work/t/framework-and-popos/2898 Quote: “DeepSleep: My Framework is defaulting to S2Idle which is burning through battery like crazy during sleep. you can enable deep sleep by adding a kernel boot option in `/boot/efi/loader/entries/pop_OS-current.conf` Just add `mem_sleep_default=deep` At the end of the options line. Waking up from sleep will take a little bit longer, but you won’t be chewing up battery while you rest.”
richiebful1 4y ago
Speaking of trackpad issues, I resolved mine using this utility on Fedora. https://gitlab.com/kirbykevinson/libinput-config https://gitlab.com/kirbykevinson/libinput-config

toberoni 4y ago

I'm writing this with buyer's remorse on my Framework. It's a huge step down from my previous Thinkpads. The battery life is atrocious - a night in modern standby drains the battery from 80% to 35%. Outside the office battery life is a constant worry, I mostly use it docked these days. The display hinge is wobbly - when I lift my Framework from my lap on a table it often folds back 180 degrees. Very annoying. In general it feels less durable than my old Thinkpad X1. Linux support is better than on most laptops and worse than on Thinkpads, e.g. no BIOS upgrades out of the box (only beta firmwares for months). Additionally, I experience rare kernel loops, sometimes the laptop doesn't shut off properly etc. Overall Thinkpads seem to be more stable.

nisegami 4y ago
I believe the hinge is a known issue on earlier models and you can get a replacement from Framework. Probably start here: https://community.frame.work/t/explainer-lid-rigidity-hinge-force-the-cnc-top-cover-and-the-new-4-0kg-hinge-kit/19157 https://community.frame.work/t/explainer-lid-rigidity-hinge-... Key section: "However, we identified that for a period of time last fall, our hinge supplier shipped a subset of hinges with forces below our accepted spec range. We’ve since added additional tests both at the hinge supplier and at our laptop assembly site to prevent out of spec hinges from shipping out. If you have a laptop where the lid angle drops on its own while the laptop is stationary, write into support with a video of it, and we’ll send you a new Hinge Kit."
- toberoni 4y ago
  Thank you for the link. Apparently I received a batch where this problem has been fixed. The hinge is not very wobbly when typing and won't move if I lift the laptop carefully. However, it won't stay in position when moving it quicker. Maybe this is by design so one can open the lid with a single hand. I prefer the sturdy hinge on my old Thinkpads though - it's difficult to open them with one hand but they stay in position when I move them.
  - nisegami 4y ago
    Ah, it really did sound like you got one of the defective hinges. Though, you still do have the option of buying the 4.0 kg hinge kit for $24 and installing it. Having to buy a part isn't ideal, at least it's available.
christophilus 4y ago
> The display hinge is wobbly I don’t own a framework, but will probably get one at some point. This issue, at least, has been fixed. You can swap the hinges out for the new ones— not sure if it’s a free fix or not, though.
ajvs 4y ago
This is because modern Intel processors don't support S3 sleep[1], they instead only have Microsoft's Deep Sleep (s0ix). The only alternative is laptops with ARM or AMD(?) processors, but I haven't got a good recommendation for one. [1] https://community.frame.work/t/linux-deep-sleep/2491/5 https://community.frame.work/t/linux-deep-sleep/2491/5
- fnfjcu7 4y ago
  Lenovo offers old S3 on modern CPUs. Linux also supports the new sleep states. Get a better distro if you're having problems. This is a solved problem for like 5 years.
fnfjcu7 4y ago
Don't worry the new ThinkPad batteries are just as good awful. And... It's not actually the batteries, it's just the newer CPUs. If you want good battery life on intel you simply have to downlevel the CPU as much as possible or go back a few generations to an i5. My old x260 still gets 8 hours of coding on a charge. But my recent X1 is lucky to get 3 hours.

mdp2021 4y ago

Since you know the product (frame.work) well: how does one get the specifications page?! Last time I checked, they (notebookcheck.net) said it used a glossy display instead of matte; I cannot find a specifications table in the frame.work website and the closest thing I got is in the "Marketplace Parts" section, e.g. at https://frame.work/products/display-kit https://frame.work/products/display-kit - where the non-trivial, simply critical detail of glossy vs matte is not specified.

RL_Quine 4y ago
It’s one of the glossiest screens around.
akvadrako 4y ago
Matte displays are just glossy displays with a coating that disperses light. You can achieve the same effect by adding a layer. Something like this: https://viascreens.com/screen-protectors/framework/ https://viascreens.com/screen-protectors/framework/ However turning a matte display into a glossy one isn't possible. FYI, https://community.frame.work/t/matte-screen-please/577/114 https://community.frame.work/t/matte-screen-please/577/114.

ur-whale 4y ago

> For my next laptop, I'm waiting for Framework Can the Framework laptop be powered via USB-C or are they still using power jacks like in the 20th century?

adrian_b 4y ago
Actually I strongly hate the laptops that can be powered only via USB-C, blocking thus a very useful I/O port, unless you also carry with you a docking station. Powering via USB-C would be OK only on laptops with at least 4 or 5 USB-C/Thunderbolt ports, but such laptops are non-existent. Laptops with only 2 USB-C ports, where 1 is blocked by the charger, are useless for me. When I have access to a power plug, I usually also want to use an external SSD and an external DisplayPort monitor, which need 2 USB-C ports.
- z9znz 4y ago
  It's a tradeoff for reduced laptop size (portability). If you're at home and need to connect to many things, you usually have a dock or expansion dongle. On the road, you often only need 2 ports - one for charging and one for whatever momentary things you need to plug in briefly. My Macbook Air M1 with only two USB-C ports has been just fine. I have a small but effective Anker "hub" which adds SD, HDMI, USB, and USB-C. Usually I don't need it, so it stays in my primary bag while my nice and portable laptop goes everywhere.
  - ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
    > On the road, you often only need 2 ports - one for charging and one for whatever momentary things you need to plug in briefly. perhaps that's all you often need, it's a little presumptuous to say so about others
    - z9znz 4y ago
      With the hub, you have many more ports - when you need them. My little Anker has two USB-A, two USB-C (one may be thunderbolt I think), HDMI, and SD card slot. You're not going to find a laptop with more than those ports. So I stand by my comment that 2 ports (and the optional little hub in your bag) are all you need. If you somehow need more, then you probably aren't traveling with all that gear... or at least not using it while in transit.
      - ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
        that doesn't work if you don't have the hub, meaning you need two ports plus also to buy this hub and carry the hub around with you everywhere you go with your laptop, and add in the hassle of dealing with it that is significantly less convenient and more expensive than a computer that has the same functionality without needing the extra hardware or a bag to carry around "accessories" that bring the laptop up to snuff
        z9znz 4y ago
        I'm curious; what external devices are you always needing connected to your laptop? What is this "extra hardware" and "accessories" that you need (and which you seem to think most people also need)? In my case, the port expander is smaller than a phone, and I rarely need it. My laptop has 2TB of drive space, so I don't need external storage except occasionally at home to do a physical backup. But my important data is frequently syncing to the cloud, so I don't need to travel with a backup drive. So more than 99% of the time, all I need is the laptop (and usually internet, which I have via wifi or mobile phone hotspot. And with one 65W Anker power adapter, I have 2 USB and 1 USB-C power so I can charge my laptop, phone, and a third small device if necessary. The MB Air is very thin, pretty light, and very rigid. That makes traveling so much more pleasant compared to the bulky heavy XPS 15 I previously had. Yes, I only have 13" display now instead of 15", but the difference in screen real estate isn't very significant.
        ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
        the "extra hardware" or "accessories" there refers to the USB hub that I'm required to carry around in order for the laptop to have the ports necessary for my ordinary usage the specific use cases aren't as important given that they exist and are unsatisfied by 1 standard USB port (though my latest MBP has zero, lol)
- chiefalchemist 4y ago
  My XPS from 1.5 years ago has 4 USB-C ports.
- christophilus 4y ago
  I love it. I plug it into my 5k screen, and it stays charged. When I’m not at my desk, I’m not generally using my ports.
- Tsiklon 4y ago
  Unfortunately the only example of a laptop I was aware of with 4x Thunderbolt ports was the much maligned 2016-2019 MacBook Pro series. the new models have 3 - and a dedicated charger port in the new iteration of MagSafe, but can also still charge off the Thunderbolt ports.
- cesarb 4y ago
  > > Can the Framework laptop be powered via USB-C or are they still using power jacks like in the 20th century? > Powering via USB-C would be OK only on laptops with at least 4 or 5 USB-C/Thunderbolt ports, but such laptops are non-existent. Isn't the Framework an example of a laptop with 4 USB-C/Thunderbolt ports? (IIRC, there's also some Apple laptop model with 2 USB-C/Thunderbolt ports on each side, for a total of 4, said model being infamous for having performance problems whenever a charger is plugged on the "wrong" side.)

ur-whale 4y ago

> For 2022 I decided to buy a "gaming" laptop and switch to 100% Linux. I researched this option before opting for an LG gram. I might research it again soon. Would you care to share exactly what gaming laptop you picked?

zivkovicp 4y ago
I bought an HP Victus 16", AMD CPU, 32GB RAM Ultimately the deciding factor was the price and the GeForce RTX 3070 GPU, it was on sale, and Linux drivers were available for all of the hardware. I'm running Pop! OS and haven't had any issues.
sofixa 4y ago
Not OP, but I've heard great things about the Asus ROG Zephyrus line, and that's what I'll probably get when i refresh my current Asus laptop which id approaching 8 years.
- maxsilver 4y ago
  I love my older ROG Zephyrus G14. Use it everyday for heavy Ruby on Rails + Java, with some gaming on the side (Control, Warframe) It doesn't necessarily look great, but it's not offensively gamerish. There's a nice utility that lets you turn the fans off/on and GPU on/off, so it gets good battery life with GPU off. USB-C charging supported, nice matte screen, 120hz+ refresh rate. I have mine setup with 40gb of RAM (one 8GB dim is baked on, one is upgradable) and with a replacement Intel wifi chip. When I need a replacement, I'll probably get the newer 2022-ish G14. They upgraded the USB-C ports (both now support display out), they put better WiFi in by default, and they went all-AMD for CPU+GPU, all of which seem like great ideas to me.
- geraldwhen 4y ago
  Asus rog laptops have high pitched, loud fans that run while idle. The trackpad is also terrible.
  - epage 4y ago
    I have a ROG Strix (12th gen intel) and no whine. Been using WSL so far but need to try again to see how well Linux runs on it. Overall, its been a solid machine so far and had sufficient battery life for me to program on flights half-way across the US without concern. My only regrets are I wish the thunderbolt port used the integrated gpu (never need discrete and sometimes windows gets stuck switching) and no webcam.
    - rickstanley 4y ago
      How long do you think you can get out of the battery life? IIRC they advertise 7-8 hours
      - epage 4y ago
        I've not really tested it besides it working for me flying between Austin and Portland.
  - rickstanley 4y ago
    It depends on the model, for instance, G15 2021 doesn't have this problem.
- rickstanley 4y ago
  Which model do plan buying? I'm trying to get my hands on G15 2022, doesn't have the "gamey" look, has a good battery life (9 hours or so) and just powerful enough with a 3060
- parasubvert 4y ago
  I have a 2020 ROG zephyrus g15 and it’s great other than the noise/heat which is annoying but not a deal breaker. and prior to 2022 there was a lack of camera. It doesn’t compare to the new M1/M2 laptops (I bought one for my parents and it’s incredible) but I’m satisfied for my needs, which needed to be Linux/Windows with a DisplayPort for VR.
- APhoenixRises 4y ago
  I had a Zephyrus G15 (2021) which ran great, but the screen brightness wasn't great. When I heard this year's G14 had a brighter display and an AMD CPU and GPU, I dove in and installed Fedora. Other than standby, everything just worked. The thing I will ding Asus about is serviceability. It's easy enough to remove the screws to take the bottom panel off, but there was always one screw for NVME/Wifi that had so much loctite that I ended up needing a special pair of plyers to remove.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  The problem I ran into with a Zephyrus G15 that I owned for a short bit is that it was inanely fussy about GPU drivers. I had the 5900HS/3080 version, and under Windows if I we’re running anything other than the OEM Nvidia drivers, I’d lose 20% GPU performance without a corresponding reduction in heat. Didn’t matter if the drivers came from Nvidia or Windows Update, same problem. What made it worse is that locking the Nvidia drivers to a specific version is not straightforward — if you only lock the main driver with Windows policy manager, Windows Update will update other parts of the Nvidia driver and leave you with drivers that are partially broken. I didn’t try Linux since this machine was intended mostly for gaming. I ended up returning it at the end of its return window, because I don’t have time for a machine that won’t run properly without absurdly specific drivers. Built a gaming tower with the money instead, which has not only been better behaved but doesn’t sound like I’m cooking it alive when I’m running games on it like the G15 did.
mmusc 4y ago
Some of the lenovo legion laptops don't look very "gamey". You still get the excellent cooling and performance. Only complaint is the battery life but I use it mostly on my desks so its not really an issue.
- rickstanley 4y ago
  Legion 7i Slim looks pretty slick, but unfortunately it doesn't have Ethernet port, and I haven't heard good things about the wireless card in terms of performance, but it also depends on your router (if it supports WF 6)
als0 4y ago
If I may ask, what do you think of the LG Gram?
- blep_ 4y ago
  I have one too (17Z90N), and it's pretty nice, as laptops go. ~10h battery life on Linux with minimal tweaking, decent keyboard and touchpad, huge screen (I've tried to use the tiny laptops that are popular these days, and they just do not work for me). Things I don't care much about and so explicitly won't review: camera, internal audio (I only ever use headphones), battery life when closed (I just go put it on my desk and plug it in when I'm not using it) My one major complaint is that the edges are unreasonably sharp. Seriously, I don't know who designed this thing, but they apparently use laptop keyboards very differently than I do. I have been considering filing them down. I also got it on ebay for what I now realize is significantly below the price it would've been new. I don't think it's worth $1800, but I don't think any (personal) computer is worth $1800, so adjust your weighting of this opinion as desired.
- TacticalCoder 4y ago
  Not GP but I'm very happy with mine. Can't speak for every model but I've got an old 15Z970 with 24 GB of RAM (from 2017 I think). LG Grams aren't cheap laptops. They don't have the retina display. But they're nice, lightweight (lighter than Mac laptops) and overall feel good. I'd say it doesn't feel as polished as the latest Mac laptops but it feels way sturdier. My M1 Macbook Air always felt like it's screen was brittle: some porcelaine to be manipulated with the greatest care or it'd break. And break it did, after 10 months, seemingly for no reason. While my 5 years old LG Gram is still going perfectly fine. I use it every time I'm not at my beasty desktop.
inawarminister 4y ago
I've been using an Ideapad Gaming 3 laptop for a year now, zero issue with Pop-OS.
Darmody 4y ago
Not OP but if I were to buy a laptop right now, it'd be the Inspiron 16 plus. Last gen i7, 3050/3060, up to 32GB of RAM, 1TB SSD, 3k 16:10 screen, good battery. And i think they sell it without dedicated graphics card too. Now I have an Inspiron 7677 which works great on linux except for the fingerprint and the webcam. Oh, I forgot. The Tuxedo Pulse 15 gen2 is also a great laptop I think. It's not a gaming laptop, it's more like a Macbook. Ryzen 7 5700U, up to 64GB of RAM, 2k screen, huuuuuuge battery, good connectivity, etc. And you can put your own logo on the lid.

jmyeet 4y ago

The M1/M2 Macbooks are a total game-changer. You made your switch in the Intel era. I certainly get that because it was the dark days of the pointless Touch Bar and the awful butterfly keyboard. But now an M2 Macbook Air for $1500-2000 (depending on options) is hard to beat. The only complaint seems to be in heat distribution. Some people use a cheap heat spreader on their desk. Apple definitely chose a stylish package over optimal thermal design. It's an issue but not a major issue. EDIT: it's a sad day on HN when you mention how M1/M2 MBs are a big step up from the Intel MBs to a comment about laptop recommendations and you get a bunch of commentless downvotes. WTaF?

skyyler 4y ago
>EDIT: it's a sad day on HN when you mention how M1/M2 MBs are a big step up from the Intel MBs to a comment about laptop recommendations and you get a bunch of commentless downvotes. WTaF? >to a comment about laptop recommendations The thread's title is "Is there a developer laptop that does not suck and is not a Mac in 2022?"
neogodless 4y ago
The thread is about having terrible support from Apple, and the comment you replied to was about getting away from lock-in, but you reply that the more efficient Apple Silicon is a "game-changer." It doesn't change any of the above deal breakers, so your comment comes off as tone deaf.
- jmyeet 4y ago
  The comment I replied to was about bad experiences with Intel MBPs. Personally, I take no position on whether someone should or shouldn't use a Macbook. I'm not invested in that outcome. Use what you want. But, at the same time, the particular shortcomings of Intel silicon MBPs is now out-of-date and it seems worth mentioning that.
- cruano 4y ago
  > the comment you replied to was about getting away from lock-in The comment was about them giving up on Apple because "I can't see the value in it anymore", and he pointed out how the value proposition changed with the non-intel macs Exactly which deal breakers do you mean? it literally says "otherwise my experience with them has been satisfactory" ?
  - zivkovicp 4y ago
    Yes, for me it was the poor value proposition that made me switch. I do prefer to not be locked-in to their ecosystem as well, but I will admit that my overall experience with Apple is positive (phone/laptop/etc.). OP seems to have a poor experience with them and is switching for that reason.
ModernMech 4y ago
I think the downvotes are coming from calling it a “game changer”. How has the game actually has changed? What does the new AS MacBook enable that the other ones don’t, or other laptops don’t for that matter? We live in an age of fast performance and great battery life on most any laptop. Having faster performance and better battery life isn’t changing the game —- that’s how the game has been played as long as laptops have been a consumer product category. If Apple’s support is the same, then the OP’s problem isn’t fixed. Their problem wasn’t performance and battery life. P.S. I’m speaking as someone who owns both a MacBook Pro and a surface laptop, so I’m not exactly biased against MacBooks.
- jmyeet 4y ago
  > How has the game actually has changed? Battery life for one [1]. Many compare the Dell XPS 13/15 to the MBA/MBP and the XPS has realistically less than half the battery life [2] (the 5.5-7 hours being listed as "feasible" there also requires turning down the display brightness a lot). The 2011 Macbook Air was heads and shoulders above anything else at the time for that combination of size, cost, power and battery life. Literally nothing else could compete on all of these factors. I mean Linus Torvalds used one [3] (and still does [4]). On a pure hardware front, the M1/M2 Macbooks are at a similar point where nothing else can compete with that combination of price, power, battery life and form factor, to the point where people will run Linux or Windows on them. You can say it's not for you. You can also say you don't like OSX. That's all fine. But anti-tribalism is just another form of tribalism. Being irrationally anti-Mac is no better than being irrationally pro-Mac. I'd argue it's worse because the anti-Mac tribalists think they're better than the pro-Mac tribalists. [1]: https://www.laptopmag.com/news/macbook-air-m2-battery-life-surprised-us-what-happened-to-the-m2-boost https://www.laptopmag.com/news/macbook-air-m2-battery-life-s... [2]: https://www.windowscentral.com/hardware/laptops/dell-xps-13-plus-review https://www.windowscentral.com/hardware/laptops/dell-xps-13-... [3]: https://www.cultofmac.com/162823/linux-creator-linus-torvalds-i-love-my-macbook-air/ https://www.cultofmac.com/162823/linux-creator-linus-torvald... [4]: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/08/linus-torvalds-uses-an-arm-powered-m2-macbook-air-to-release-latest-linux-kernel/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/08/linus-torvalds-uses-...
  - 4y ago
sgarland 4y ago
> M1/M2 MBs are a big step up from the Intel MBs to a comment about laptop recommendations and you get a bunch of commentless downvotes. I don't get it, either. What Apple did with the M1 is nothing short of incredible. I bought a stock M1 Air (as in, 8 GB RAM model, since that's what stores carry) as my personal laptop a few months after launch, and could not be happier. The _only_ time I've experienced any issues was in running Minikube, and that was solved by installing Docker Desktop - on Intel, I use hyperkit to avoid that. I think hyperkit supports M1s now anyway.
- wyclif 4y ago
  Also, no heat issues. And I don't ever think I've heard the fan spin up on the M1 MBP, and I've hardly been conservative with loads on it. They're great laptops.
zivkovicp 4y ago
I haven't used the new generation of MacBooks yet, but I might request one from my employer just to get a feel for it. The Apple experience is more polished for sure, but after Linux, I doubt I will accept any form of proprietary OS/hardware for my personal computer ever again.
- jmyeet 4y ago
  You can run Linux on Mac hardware. Linus Torvalds seems to have been doing this for the last decade. Personally I find Linux desktop environments to be beyond awful with zero hope for salvation but to each their own. I certainly recognize a lot of the shortcomings of OSX but, more than anything, I don't want something I have to endlessly tinker with to get working (and keep working). For me, out of the box experience is paramount.

pb7 4y ago

It’s completely unreasonable to not be able to play audio through your built in speakers in 2022 (or even 2002). The things people will justify to keep using Linux is insane.

SpacePortKnight 4y ago
Fedora is one of the most beautiful and functional Linux distros out there. I don't think it is the Fedora's ( read: real humans working behind Linux) fault at all. But since manufactures don't provide an out of the box support for Linux, it takes time for the community to catch up. Linux can work just as well as any other operating system if there is a commercial entity maintaining it, like SteamOS for Steam Deck. And that is true for all software, not just Linux.
bee_rider 4y ago
The speakers work fine on mine, but I have to say they aren't much of a killer feature. How often do you use your laptop speakers? Even if you cheap out, it is pretty difficult to find a pair of headphones that sound worse than laptop speakers.
weberer 4y ago
Read that comment again, but slowly this time.
nirimda 4y ago
It's not a matter of what year it is. It isn't Linux's fault, it's a consequences of split responsibilities. On a laptop, Linux is essentially an aftermarket addon -- the product has to be released before it can be adapted. And if Linux is a viable choice, then there really isn't a viable alternative to Linux. On the one hand, Mac OS is probably already ruled out due to some property of Apple and Windows is probably ruled out because it is too excentric to make for a smooth development platform. On the other hand, a lot of people who would prefer to use FreeBSD use Linux on their laptop as a pragmatic compromise (others use MacOS - this is one case where Linux and Apple are probably both legitimately in contention). And so people just have to live with the fact that, when you buy a new laptop, it might be better after six months than it was on the day you got it. This isn't actually that big a deal. Most people are capable of tolerating disappointment and incomplete satisfaction, and it's usually considered as sign of emotional maturity not insanity. If you don't like that, it's a matter of different priorities, not insanity.

stonith 4y ago

Not sure most dev work is single threaded. Test suites can be multithreaded/multiprocess and so can compiling, just for two examples.

Hendrikto 4y ago
* IDE * Docker daemon * backend container * frontend container * database container * local web server * browser with Gitlab, Slack, Email, etc. No idea how dev work is suppsed to be mostly single-threaded.
- briandear 4y ago
  Vim is single threaded right?
- nirimda 4y ago
  For instance, when you send a message from the backend container to the database container during ordinary CRUD, the backend container will largely be waiting for the database to start processing. Something similar for most frontend requests - usually in dev work, you press a button, it sends an API request and awaits the response; the API request sends a message to the database and blocks on the response. The database sits around idly waiting till it receives a message, and sends something back. Then the backend postprocesses the reply and produces the response, and then the frontend postprocesses the response. There is some degree of joint action during the actual communication phases but it wouldn't put a huge load on the multithreading capacity of your CPU. Something similar can be said for Gitlab/Slack/Email - in the background, they could easily be using the spare CPU time rather than competing for time, and you wouldn't actually notice it. But they also should spend most of their time waiting around doing nothing. So I think the claim is specifically true for some stacks with poor test coverage. But if you have compiled code, it should probably be compilable in parallel (and if it isn't, you should be complaining to the compiler writer and/or refactoring your code). Likewise, unit tests should in practice be runnable in parallel - if they are not, they're probably closer to integration tests. Even integration tests should be writable so that they can run in parallel, because you hope to have more than one user acting in parallel. And you generally shouldn't be testing your feature development manually. Even if you prefer to visualise your process, you can code it up in something like cypress so that you can run them later or check up why you missed this special case when the bug reports come in. So I disagree with the original assertion, but I don't think you've provided an effective counterargument.

samatman 4y ago

Portability is the first thing I look for in a work machine, personally. I have a nice desktop setup, 5k2k, keeb, trackball, stream deck, my laptop runs it without making any noise, slowing down, or otherwise misbehaving. I can easily drive to the manufacturer's authorized retail outlet in the event that it has problems, which has indeed happened twice over the nine laptops I've owned from this manufacturer in the last 15 years. YMMV. Brand not mentioned out of respect for the aesthetics of this thread.

snarfy 4y ago
Where are you going with your computer to do real work? I've never used a laptop to get real work done where I need to sit for 4+ hours that wasn't a nice desk with ergonomic chair and large monitors. The only thing I ever did with my laptops when it wasn't plugged into a docking station at a desk was surf the web, and I can do that from my phone.
- NateEag 4y ago
  I massively prefer a good workstation with large monitors and a nice keyboard, but I've done plenty of real work on a laptop. Airplanes, coffee shops, recliners, internetless cabins... a laptop's been all I needed for doing everything from web development to audio synthesis algorithm development.
- samatman 4y ago
  I have a standing desk, gamer-style ergo chair, a Lay-Z-boy, a bed, a table and chair outside, and a cafe nearby I'm fond of. The laptop can go to all of those places. I can't work in bed for hours. But I can for a half hour after lunch, take a nap, then set back up at the desk as I am now. I lived without a monitor for several years, you get the hang of it. I did have to bump up from 13" to 16" so I can use it without reading glasses for a few more years. I'm definitely more efficient with more real estate, but not in a way that holds me back most of the time. I've also trained myself to type on a laptop in a way that's hard to describe but: left hand V to Q, right hand N to P/[, so at a natural angle for my wrists. I've been using a split keyboard for long enough that twisting my wrists to accommodate a narrow keyboard isn't something I was willing to keep doing. This lets me get paragraphs/pages written without pain, whether I'm at the desk or not.

mort96 4y ago

I've had a couple XPS laptops over the years, one XPS 13 and one XPS 15. Both have had issues with their trackpads getting wonky. They would just increasingly ignore inputs and react incorrectly to my finger. The XPS 15 (the 2-in-1 model) would also sometimes just not go to sleep and cook itself in my bag, and its keyboard has keys which just break over time under normal use, and that's not covered under warranty. You can't just replace the keyboard, you have to pay out of pocket to replace the whole top case of the laptop. Your experience might differ, but I'm not getting a Dell again.

jscheel 4y ago
My 2019 16" mbp will randomly try to cook itself in my bag too. Apple never has any answers for any of the bullcrap power management that happens.
- icedchai 4y ago
  The 2019 MacBook Pros are basically hot plates with a computer attached.
alkonaut 4y ago
The keyboard/trackpad giving up is the battery swelling. And it happens to nearly all of them I think. At least if they run hot. I had one plugged in 24/7 for 3 years and it’s usually a few months until the battery swells until the keyboard stops working. I had the battery replaced three times. If only they allowed running without battery I’d get one again. Or if they started testing their machines properly. Great support, sloppy thermal design and testing by Dell.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> The XPS 15 (the 2-in-1 model) would also sometimes just not go to sleep and cook itself in my bag happened to my XPS 15, Thats because they remives normal sleep mode and replaced it with always on standby. had to switch ti hybernation
hertzrat 4y ago
That’s due to swelling batteries, which is apparently common in the xps line
- semi-extrinsic 4y ago
  It's also an issue on HPs similar x360 line. And it is a consequence of optimizing for the arbitrary metric "slimness" at the expense of cooling, while stuffing in high-TDP CPUs. Who on earth has a bag or backpack where 15 mm vs 21 mm thickness means the laptop won't fit? Get something with a bit of thickness to it, like the Latitude 5530 (which Dell will also sell with Ubuntu) and stick to the low-TDP CPU versions. If your dev work is CPU-intensive you should be doing it on a workstation or server anyways. A machine where your cooling solution can dissipate 3-400W without batting an eyelid is going to beat the crap out of a "high-end" 45W TDP laptop. When you're on the road, just use SSH with tmux or RDP or whatever you prefer. At your desk, set up a monitor and a workstation for the serious work and keep the laptop on the side for meetings, emails etc. A USB switch for the mouse and keyboard works well and is like $30.

blurrybird 4y ago

You should see their 4 hour 24x7 ProSupport option. We managed to bundle it in with a 1600-device order one year and I was (un)fortunate enough to get to experience it. “So if I understand correctly, You’ve just spilt a red bull on your work laptop at a LAN party you’re facilitating just now, and it’s 1AM, and you need your laptop tomorrow morning for bump out…? Ok does 3:30am work for you?”

djbusby 4y ago
In 2000 I spilled grape juice on my Dell Inspiron laptop, while 1000 miles from home. They were out fixing it the next day. It's not a new play for Dell.
- hu3 4y ago
  In 2001 I fried a Dell desktop motherboard and processor while toying with overclocking. They flown someone with brand new parts to my home, more than a 1000km away, and replaced it all no question asked. It's surreal.
  - digitalsushi 4y ago
    In May 2020, my wife's Dell laptop blipped out during her morning coffee from an over-weekend break, and by noon there was a Dell technician sitting at a card table in our garage, 32F/0C degrees, socially isolating from any germs we could have, and he swapped motherboards inside of an hour. Incredible.
    - Breza 4y ago
      I had a Dell Precision laptop and a super long subway commute. Apparently the beast wasn't designed for use under those conditions and parts started failing. They replaced whatever it took to get it working again. I was so sad when the new parent company changed our hardware provider.
    - ss108 4y ago
      Where are you located where it's 32F in May, lol
      - digitalsushi 4y ago
        New Hampshire
      - hu3 4y ago
        Could be a lot of places https://climate.copernicus.eu/surface-air-temperature-may-2020 https://climate.copernicus.eu/surface-air-temperature-may-20...
      - jffry 4y ago
        Reaching freezing in early May is not at all uncommon in most of New England, for starters. I imagine it's also not completely rare in the upper Midwest.
        ss108 4y ago
        Also SF :smirk:
        fragmede 4y ago
        0C/32F? In SF? Even in the dead of winter it hardly ever actually hits freezing. Average is 2.5C / 36 F.
        omniglottal 4y ago
        With an average of 36, how unreasonable does 32 really sound at night?
        mceachen 4y ago
        36F is a typo. Average is more like 63F. Temps vary widely in the Bay Area—microclimates really are a thing. Freezing temps and >100F are common in the east bay, but quite rare out on the coast.

tchaffee 4y ago

My last Dell XPS sucked and the support sucked. I bought a top of the line XPS and within less than a year the battery was swollen. Same exact battery model they were still replacing for free on the previous laptop model, but when I called support I was out of luck. So I bought a new battery. And then within a few more months I started getting common the sticky key problem with several keys on my keyboard requiring a lot of pressure to work. Their build quality has gone way down. Strong avoid. I switched to a gaming laptop and am still comparing brands before I decide who to recommend, but after a year I'm still really happy with the performance and build quality of my current one. Most seem built to take a beating. Which makes sense.

tinus_hn 4y ago
It just depends on what kind of support you order. Got the basic support? You get to listen to outsourced tech support telling you you have to reinstall Windows first. Got the premium support? They’ll typically replace the motherboard with everything on it the next day.
klik99 4y ago
Was your last Dell recent? I remember having horrible experiences with Dell support so I wouldn't buy them. But about 1.5 years ago I saw a great deal on a refurbished beefy machine I needed - and found their support was amazing when it needed some parts replaced. My guess is they did a 180 on support because they had a bad reputation. YMMV because I still hear bad experiences - they partner with local support so it may depend on the quality of folks in your area.
- eastbound 4y ago
  Dell has no proven track of good support. You may say it’s an entirely different company since [too short to measure accurately] and you would just look like the rest of their campaign managers. If they truely have changed, they would have made a fuss about it, wouldn’t have they.
  - ska 4y ago
    Dell has a proven track record of great support for a) "business" products and b) under premium support contract. They throw in a year of that coverage on (most?) new purchases, but you can add at least 3 years. For consumer and out-of-contract stuff, it's pretty industry standard. Their cheap stuff breaks a lot, but so does most brands.

eastbound 4y ago

> then XPS 13 is a great laptop. No, clearly not. Apart from the overheating the first experience you’ll have is opening it: You pull the screen upwards, but the hinge is too strong, so the bottom comes with the screen, and then since the handle is slippery you lose the screen and the whole block slams on the desk. That’s on paar with the DELL experience. Pretty much everything is wrong about it.

folkrav 4y ago
> No, clearly not. Apart from the overheating the first experience you’ll have is opening it: You pull the screen upwards, but the hinge is too strong, so the bottom comes with the screen, and then since the handle is slippery you lose the screen and the whole block slams on the desk. I've just always opened my laptops with two hands (I'm gonna type my password anyway?), so a hinge not being able to be opened with one hand always screamed "first world problem" type of issue to me. Maybe I'm just too used to crappy laptop hinges and using a nice one would be a revelation. I don't know.
Biganon 4y ago
Every single laptop does this, except bulky Lenovos. Is it really too hard to use both hands? How many times a day do you open your laptop anyway? Let alone with one hand unavailable?
- mort96 4y ago
  Nah, even the lightest macbooks can be opened with one hand. Has a useful notch in the bottom case too so grip isn't a problem. It's not a big deal at all, I certainly wouldn't list it as a reason to not get a laptop like your parent comment does; it probably wouldn't even factor in to my decision. But it's certainly not a problem in all thin-and-lights.
  - pengaru 4y ago
    > Nah, even the lightest macbooks can be opened with one hand. Has a useful notch in the bottom case too so grip isn't a problem. Not consistent with my experience handling an ex's 11" macbook air. That thing would lift the chassis from a table readily when tilting the screen using one hand. But it's not some apple-specific phenomenon. Even my chonky X230 with good hinges does this esp. when on carpet with the extended battery, there's no weight under the palmrest.

readingnews 4y ago

I really do not understand the love the XPS 13 gets. We have several here at the office. We will never get them again. They break, the keyboard is not pleasant, the machine is not really fast, two handed openings are painful when you come from a different brand, charging it takes forever, we just leave them plugged in, switching wireless to wired in linux (several distros) takes too long, did I mention the keyboard makes me want to vomit?... I think my office neighbors has broken at least 7 times. I stopped using mine as I liked my ancient MBP better, and I really do not like apple that much. Although I do not have an alternative that I have used, I know colleagues who love their new (last three or four years old) Lenovos, like the X series.

rowanG077 4y ago
I mean the level of complaint being "Opening the lid is kinda hard" shows it must be a pretty good laptop. It's like complaining that the waiter asked one time too many if everything was satisfactory at a high-end restaurant.
horsawlarway 4y ago
I have 2 in the XPS line - a relatively old 15 inch and a new(ish) 13 inch. They're perfectly fine machines. Dell officially supports linux on them (admittedly, only Ubuntu), you can get 32gb of RAM, and they perform just as well as any other intel based laptop (which is to say - I wish they sucked less power, but they're fine on the performance scale). I'm... not a clean person with my machines, and I've never noticed any issues with the keyboards. I have zero issues swapping wireless to wired (Arch linux) - it's basically instant for me, but I don't actually know how you're testing that, since none of the newer 13 models include an ethernet port (I use an adapter). Have you considered that you have a bad usb-ethernet adapter? Every one I've used is fine. Alternatively - are you sure you're not thinking of the Latitude line? Those are very different machines, which I also avoid. Basically - I'd take an XPS every time over anything Lenovo puts out. I don't even really care about the hardware, I just think Lenovo can't be trusted a god damn inch. Chinese company selling computers with rootkits/MITM pre-installed. It was a sad day when IBM sold their personal computing line to them. I know a lot of folks still like the Thinkpads - but it's not worth it, IMO.
- mlmonge 4y ago
  I've had an eye on the Huawei Matebook X Pro on Swappa. My other eye is on the XPS, new from Amazon. The latter is certainly more expensive and yet, doesn't impress me as much as the Matebook. But as we all know, Huawei is not trusted much here lately in the U.S. Is this in fact another Chinese company that's best we avoid? I was considering starting an Ask HN just for Huawei given not much has been posted here on this topic for a couple of years now.
  - 6c737133 4y ago
    with all due respect - lol there isn't a fire capable of burning hot enough, to throw every huawei device into just google the company man, it's a track record that's genuinely hard to believe 20190409 backdoored laptops - https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47800000 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47800000 20190430 backdoored routers - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/apr/30/alleged-huawei-router-backdoor-is-standard-networking-tool-says-firm https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/apr/30/alleged-h... 20210813 alleged widespread IP theft from a pakistani tech firm, repackaged with backdoors, and sold back to the pakistani gov - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/apr/30/alleged-huawei-router-backdoor-is-standard-networking-tool-says-firm https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/apr/30/alleged-h...
    - happymellon 4y ago
      Yes I remember the router situation where they accidentally left telnet listening on the WAN. I worked at Vodafone and all the routers get a security review, so it is highly doubtful that they left it in on purpose because they would have known that it would have been found. It was test engineering firmware that got left on some routers, and makes spurious claims even though in the article it points out that Vodafone didn't believe it was a backdoor. And your first link talks about how someone appears to have added an additional chip to the design, which is unlikely to have come from Huawei. Sounds suspiciously similar to this https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-hack-how-china-used-a-tiny-chip-to-infiltrate-america-s-top-companies https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-10-04/the-big-h... Do you want a list of everything that Cisco (replace with your preferred networking manufacturer) messed up and claim that it's all malicious? https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/may/12/glenn-greenwald-nsa-tampers-us-internet-routers-snowden https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/may/12/glenn-greenwal... Tampering with these things is allegedly pretty simple. https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/planting-tiny-spy-chips-in-hardware-can-cost-as-little-as-200/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/10/plant...
packetlost 4y ago
Idk, I'm on my 3rd XPS and I've had none of these problems. Even the keyboard I consider to be above average. I will agree that opening the lid can bit a bit difficult/awkward, but it's hardly a problem.
- asdfqwertzxcv 4y ago
  Gotta agree. Also on #3 and all have been absolutely stellar, even after popping the lid on all of them to do some upgrades.