19 ms·

Congress urged to ease immigration for foreign science talent

145 points by JSeymourATL 4y ago

tejtm 4y ago
we are on the verge of having to pay our own, (sorry for the snark, and I do welcome any efforts that decrease antiscience attitudes)
- curiousllama 4y ago
  Are STEM PhDs in the private sector struggling?
  - HarryHirsch 4y ago
    Around 2000, in Chemical & Engineering News, the organ of the American Chemical Society, there were 12 - 15 pages of job ads, a good chunk industrial. Now there are maybe 3 - 4 pages, most academic. Friend, you have no clue how much better it used to be!
    - qaq 4y ago
      Can it be that between 2000 and 2022 there was a shift to Linkedin and other resources as a primary place for the commercial job ads?
      - jleyank 4y ago
        PhD chemist hiring is about the best it’s been since the 60’s. It’s just that paper media aren’t in the workflow anymore.
        HarryHirsch 4y ago
        It's picking up again but isn't anywhere near mid-1990's level.
        jleyank 4y ago
        This isn't what I hear in the medchem biz. But then, that's not the same as the chemist biz, nor is it located in the same places. The coastal biotech/pharma sites are in a staggering boom.
whimsicalism 4y ago
The government thinks our salaries are too high
- wyldfire 4y ago
  The companies that hire these engineers either pay them to work there or pay them to work here. So you are competing with them regardless. But the US can benefit from both migrant farm workers and skilled laborer immigrants. And unless you're one of the few natives in the US, your ancestors got the same benefit. Let's just let them immigrate here and then we get the benefit of their expertise and their culture.
  - geraldwhen 4y ago
    This is patently false. Beyond a certain headcount you run into regulatory issues in India and China. And the timezone issue alone makes a lot of work untenable.
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    There are clear benefits to the employer to being able to pay them to work here. Personally, I think people underestimate the unique talent in the west coast of the US, so wages will not be immediately depressed - but it is clear that this is a move premised on the idea that we have to lower the salaries of technical workers in the US.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
  If you listen to what the Fed says, it actually does. It thinks unemployment is too low.
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    But that's about general conditions in the labor market - this is the government specifically singling out technical workers in the US as being overpaid.
Sakos 4y ago
How about Congress ensuring better pay for their existing population?
- qaq 4y ago
  You do realize that leading world in R&D is a prerequisite to having high paying jobs?
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    We already lead the world in R&D.
    - qaq 4y ago
      Yes that is a static state no need to compete for talent
  - uuee 4y ago
- curiousllama 4y ago
  You mean by pouring money into the sectors where these immigrants would theoretically work? > China competition bills passed in the last year by the House and Senate seek to pour money into the National Science Foundation and other federal research agencies. They also seek to incentivize high-tech companies, especially those that manufacture semiconductors, to build facilities in the U.S. Looks like they're on it.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- mpyne 4y ago
  If immigrants are coming into fill high-paying jobs, then by definition there is already an ability for the existing population to get better pay: fill those high-paying jobs! That is already accounted for in programs like H1B. If the job remains high-paying even with H1Bs then we clearly have room for more people to join the labor market, including immigrants.
xwdv 4y ago
- wreath 4y ago
  Can you elaborate on why is that?
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    Because they are American-educated and a demographic can't beat themselves.
- rebelos 4y ago
  I've got a news flash for you about the scientists that America is educating...
  - xwdv 4y ago
    Must be educated in America, not in home countries.
- sharkster711 4y ago
  Most American educated scientists aren't American, unless that's what you meant.
curiousllama 4y ago
> Current U.S. immigration law limits the number of green cards issued per country, and people from populous countries like India and China are disproportionately affected. It still shocks me how many of my friends from $top_US_university got kicked out of the country (or almost did, saved only by marriage). Like, do we really want to kick out a half-Iranian nuclear engineer, who now wants to work as a SWE, because they were born in India? I get that we can't open the flood gates. But it _does_ make a bit of sense to retain the top % of immigrants based on education in scarce fields, no?
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  Never accuse American immigration policy of either intelligence or foresight.
  - KennyBlanken 4y ago
    Oh, it's plenty intelligent enough. Farming, construction, landscaping, etc all need undocumented labor over 'legal' labor, all around the country, but especially in farm country. Do you really believe that they honestly do not want migrant labor coming over the borders? No payroll taxes/benefits, and undocumented workers are much easier to exploit. They are highly unlikely to go to the cops about anything criminal that happens on the job, or to OSHA about any workplace safety violations, or to the district attorney about wage theft, and so on. They fear getting deported or tossed in jail. They're also socially isolated by various barriers - language, racial prejudice, and so on...so word of shady stuff going on is a lot less likely to make its way out. Don't want anyone to find out about your toxic waste dumping? Have your migrant workers do it. Also, migrant workers will do a lot of shit jobs that a lot of Americans just don't want to do, or at least not at fair market value labor rates that the business would be "sustainable" at. Meanwhile, politicians shout about how that migrant worker is stealing your job and so on. So they get the $$$ from the people who want exploitable labor, and the votes from the Pickup Truck Petes who think those "illegals" are "stealin' our jobs" and so on. It's not far off from why education is so poorly funded and constantly under various attacks in the US. There's a lot of wealthy people who want easily manipulated, uneducated, trapped-in-poverty workers to exploit. This is also why abortion is under constant attack; access to family planning is a huge factor to people escaping poverty.
sharkster711 4y ago
I moved myself and my job to Canada (L6 engineer at FAANG). It's been alright, I wish I could stay but didn't really see a way forward in the USA, immigration-wise. I think folks in the US fail to see that they'll be competing with engineers of other nationalities - regardless of if they're in the USA or outside, and there's really nothing that Congress or anyone else can do to prevent remote jobs (and the trickle-down monies) from leaving the country.
- saghm 4y ago
  IIRC US citizens are still required to pay income tax to the US even when working and living abroad, which definitely stops some money from flowing outwards. There's probably a way to complete renounce one's US citizenship, but given how it likely would be hard to reenter the country to visit family or friends once you do that, I think the tradeoff ends up being a lot more than people are willing to give up compared to simply moving abroad.
  - Retric 4y ago
    Renouncing US citizenship happens but the the exit tax make it makes it less appealing for the wealthy. “The exit tax is calculated as a capital gains tax if all assets were sold on the day of renunciation.” There are also social security implications for workers which make switching midway through a career more costly.
    - CameronNemo 4y ago
      I wish states could do this. Instead people can make a bunch of gains while living in Oregon (for example), then move to Idaho and not owe anything to Oregon. Even if the capital gains were accrued while they lived in Oregon and benefited from that residency.
      - drugstorecowboy 4y ago
        How would this work exactly? I buy stock in Oregon and live there for 5 years holding the stock. I then move to Idaho and sell the stock for a profit. How would you calculate what percent of the taxes should go where? Was Oregon doing something during those five years of your stock sitting in an account that makes them deserve that money? Perhaps if Oregon had similar tax policies to Idaho people would buy stock in Idaho and cash out in Oregon balancing out any "lost" taxes...
flavius29663 4y ago
Immigration in the US is such a joke. I understand and agree that the US cannot let everyone in (you would end up with 100 mil people per year), but the current system is too screwed up. If you want to do everything legally, you have to wait/work years, and even if you have all the papers in order, too many times it's a matter of luck or a government employee disposition on that day. Be an illegal, and you can just walk through the border. The USA could attract much more talent and better immigrants in general, if they just made it all based on qualifications and points, like for example Australia.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- Layke1123 4y ago
  Why? That used to be the US's exact policy. It's even carved into the Statue of Liberty.
  - rhexs 4y ago
    What? That’s just propaganda — it’s a poem, not a historical record of United States immigration policy. Any county actively seeking to import those in poverty is gonna have a fun time competing on the international stage.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      Australia used to be a dumping ground for literal convicts, so maybe the OP has a point
    - Layke1123 4y ago
      So all the Irish that came over weren't poor?
- rayiner 4y ago
  What makes them “better immigrants?” Until the mid 20th century America took the poorest and least educated immigrants and it worked out pretty well. It’s not clear to me that importing other countries’ elites is a better tack.
yboris 4y ago
One of the most important ideas out there: Open Borders I think it's the only sensible policy if you are egalitarian and cosmopolitan. https://openborders.info/ https://openborders.info/
- refurb 4y ago
  This could never work. First off, you can't offer social programs to the entire world's poor without going broke. So you could just offer them to citizens (as per Singapore), but on top of that you need to kick everyone out who shouldn't be there otherwise you end up with a massive underclass and huge social problems.
- jleyank 4y ago
  Today,I would think the us isn’t either one of these…
- UmbertoNoEco 4y ago
  I am very partial to open borders, but I concede there is not a practical solution yet. There is a book (I forgot the title at this time) of an economist where he "shows" (fwiw) how open borders could multiply the world productivity by a high factor, decreasing global inequality and other many positive effects. On the other hand there is the risk that an idyllic and safe community may be overrun but people who dont respect or adapt to the new environment. For me a (still very theoretical) situation would be: - People still keep their current nationalities - Everyone has the right to a 3-month tourist visa to any country, no question asked, unless you are a fugitive o has been banned from leaving your country for some valid reason. You can return to the country if you want, 180 days after leaving it. - If you get a job offer you have the right to a 1 year probationary working visa. You must stay for a least 6 months, but after that you can switch jobs if you want. If you are fired within the first 6 months, you still receive 6 month- 1 year permit to get a new job without having to leave the country. After the first year, you get a 2 year permit and after that you can get permanent residency if you want. - If you commit any serious crime (say, having to serve +6 months) you are immediately deported and banned forever from that country,another of that offenses and you can't leave your country of origin. - If you overstay your visa you must be also "punished" with some kind of temporary banning on your passport, heavier penalties for repeating offenders. I know this is still very naive and crude, but we need to move towards a refined system in that style. The better we improve the big inequalities we have in the world the easier will be to implement it ( I know, I know). For me it is very absurd how just because of a simple accident of where one was born it may be forbidden to visit or work in a good portion of this planet. I am optimistic in the very long term, future generations will see this situation as absurd as we see now things like serfdom,having to swear loyalty to God and King or the probably mythical prima noctis notion.
pm90 4y ago
Important to note that the proposal is to lift green card caps on PHD holders. Certainly not opening any “floodgates”.
immigrantheart 4y ago
I thought US immigration system is not geared toward helping US competitiveness, but diversity and family reunification. Besides, PhDs in other countries like say, Indonesia for example, won't be as good as PhDs in other first world countries. The second/third order effects would be that these opens up for immigration/education fraud from countries which populations really want to go to the US. I can already imagine. Can the US job market absorb for these PhDs?
hardwaresofton 4y ago
I wonder if this is the thing YC/Seibel was working on
screye 4y ago
I am going to address the elephant in the room. "[1.] Can a country train mediocre domestic performers to the productivity of the top 1% of other nations, while staying competitive?" OR "[1a.] Can America's 25th percentile out-compete the 1 percentile of other countries"? OR "[1b.] Nurture, but to what extent?" It is pointless to have numerous discussions go around in circles, while no one is willing to address the awkward musical chair that stays empty. If [1.] is true, then there is a strong case towards reducing immigration. If not, then immigration is the only way a country can maintain a developmental advantage. _______ I understand that this kind of question can quickly head towards Eugenics if the discussion isn't careful or in immense good faith. However, it must be glaringly obvious to every smart person that careful inquiry around question [1.] is central to actually figuring out a solution that moves past propaganda that ideological goals. While I am digging myself into a hole, I am going to state a few more such questions: [2.] If the pareto principle is true, then is there a hard capability threshold past which immigrants should be avoided ? [3.] If economic immigrants are a net drain, then what level of additional tax on immigrants makes them a positive addition to the system? [4.] Can someone please explain these graphs to me ? [g1][g2][g3][g4] . Isn't this a contradiction ? [5.] What percent of a representative human population can 'learn to code' at a professional level? _______ To be very clear, I do not equate capability or intelligence to IQ or any one-dimensional SAT-like test. I will leave it upto the reader to interpret 'general intelligence / capability / economic productivity/ human value' as they see fit. Also, this is a purely economic perspective towards immigration. I am keeping morals/need/ideology for another time. _______ [g1] https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/ft_2020.08.20_immigrants_01.png https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/ft_20... [g2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/199958/number-of-green-cards-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/199958/number-of-green-c... [g3] https://www.statista.com/statistics/200061/number-of-refugees-arriving-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/200061/number-of-refugee... [g4] https://www.migrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/source_charts/frs-2022-fig1.png https://www.migrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/source_c...
- blululu 4y ago
  1.) Probably not, but what is the prize here? San Francisco is a beautiful city, but people constantly complain about the fact that it is overrun by yuppie tech people who have zero connection with the place and who frequently express their disdain for the city. The city crushing it by any metric of global success, and yet it still has a ton of problems. It's not the best place to raise kids, it has a lot of social woes and it doesn't really provide much benefit for a lot of ordinary people who grew up there. Having the smartest people has a lot of benefits, but you also need to have some policy to make sure that these benefits actually trickle down. 1.a). Probably not, but again what is the prize here? Belgium's top 50% is pretty top notch, but with ~10M people, this is still just a drop in the Ocean. They can still have a plenty nice country though. 1.b.) Both, but it's nice to invest in your communities. A lot of people would mention that they learned a lot of what they know on the job and not in school. If you look at American high school math scores, the country is a joke. If you look at American engineers, it starts to become a serious contender (either the tests are missing something big or Americans are learning some interesting tricks along the way).
jmyeet 4y ago
This is a fairly minor reform as it only applies to those who hold PhD degrees. The plight of Indian-born nationals (in particular) is well-known but largely unaddressed by this bill. But the most interesting part to me was this: > In the defense industrial-base sector, which includes aerospace and weapons development for the U.S. military, half of the advanced STEM degree holders are foreign-born, according to the Institute for Progress. That... is surprising. Don't those working in defense or sensitive industries need to be at a minimum permanent residents and in some cases US citizens? I mean, you need to be a US permanent resident or citizen to work at SpaceX, for example. I'm honestly surprised the US government hasn't gone so far as to exclude Chinese-born individuals to work in certain sensitive industries given the well-documented wholesale IP theft that the CCP engages in. This too could also apply to Israel, especially given the dominance os Israeli firms in selling 0days to pretty much any foreign government.
- quantumduck 4y ago
  There is ITAR, and no you can't just get an advanced degree and work in defense and space industry on sensitive projects. The half the article is talking about likely fall into the following categories: (I) they got their advanced degree many years ago when it was easier to get a green card and are permanent residents/citizens by now. Tons of people like this in NASA, ONR, etc. (ii) they work for a defense subcontractor on something that's not classified as sensitive.
opportune 4y ago
The way the US treats Indian (and other large countries, but India has it worst) H1B holders is disgusting. You can work in the US for over a decade and start a family, and still be on a visa which requires you to leave the country if you spend just a bit of time unemployed. And it makes it very hard to switch jobs. I wish this weren't tied to getting just a PhD though. We are already over-incentivizing getting advanced degrees in the US for immigration purposes. While this technically exempts foreign degree holders from the GC quota, those people still need to get work authorization to begin with, so it does increase the incentive to do a PhD in the US for regular work immigration purposes since that also gives you work authorization via OPT. I don't see any reason to keep per-country GC quotas in place. It punishes individuals for almost no reason - it doesn't actually prevent immigration (since we still grant work visas with temporary residence - that's a separate process from getting a GC), it just keeps immigrants in precarious positions for much longer than others purely on the basis of nationality. I can't think of a legit reason to do this that doesn't either boil down to racism/xenophobia or some kind of innumerate argument that it's unfair for countries with more immigrants to be given more GCs.
- Mikeb85 4y ago
  > You can work in the US for over a decade and start a family, and still be on a visa which requires you to leave the country if you spend just a bit of time unemployed. And it makes it very hard to switch jobs. Unfortunately that's the point. These visas aren't designed to make it easy to permanently settle, they're designed to provide lower-cost labour and remove employee bargaining power.
  - opportune 4y ago
    Even so, it doesn't make sense to concentrate the pain on the basis of nationality.
    - digianarchist 4y ago
      Country of birth not nationality.
Thorentis 4y ago
Terrible idea. Instead, US companies should be forced to hire a minimum percentage of US citizens. If they can't find enough talent locally, this will incentivise them to upskill the local population. Paying for traineeships, college degrees, funding technical colleges, and so on. If there is a skill shortage domestically, the response should not be "let's bring in more immigrants".
- hemreldop 4y ago
- rhexs 4y ago
  Completely agree. It’s strange to me that this idea, a country taking care of its own citizens first and foremost, is considered an extremist, “xenophobic” policy in this day and age. Love the article as well —- “We need to drive down salaries..because..uh, China!” Especially with interest rates rising, layoffs increasing, a potential recession inbound. The absolute gall of our collective leaders.
- ldjkfkdsjnv 4y ago
  Yup, its ridiculous what goes on with immigration. Really common for all immigrant orgs in big tech to just prefer hiring their own.
- sbelskie 4y ago
  Should California force SV tech companies to hire a minimum percentage of people from CA?
  - NHQ 4y ago
    That would be CA's interest because those employees will definitely be paying state income tax.
    - sbelskie 4y ago
      Sorry, I meant this more in terms of state residency. Remote stuff obviously makes the question more complicated, but I meant currently existing residents of CA vs. people from other states who would move to California and also pay state income tax, similar to the US immigration question.
greatwhitenorth 4y ago
It's amazing how US randomly chooses 50000 people every year through a lottery and provide them with green card but wouldn't provide the same number to backlogged skilled employees who are already in the country for 10+ years, paying taxes, contributing to the country, and vetted multiple times through interviews and immigration.
paulpauper 4y ago
On math exchange and other sites, a good chunk of top scorers are ex-US. Some of this is due to greater population, but its evidence also there is considerable talent overseas which may still be untapped.
- rg111 4y ago
  This is completely based on personal experience, and a significant amount at that. Most Indians who study Physics/CS/Math/Engg. do that because they want a high paying job and social prestige. Most Americans who study these, are genuinely interested in these subjects. They are passionate about these.
  - dr_spicy 4y ago
    Purely anecdotally, but it seemed like the majority of the students in my college classes, American or not, were probably more interested in the money than passionate
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    This is a well studied developed vs developing world gap. An interesting corollary that appears to be related is that the gender gap in STEM is much less large in the developing world.
thehappypm 4y ago
Immigration of high earners is destroying Canada. Housing prices in Toronto and Vancouver and many other desirable metros are absolutely exploding, and they keep importing more high earners and boosting competition. America’s housing crisis is not yet so bad, but I think a housing crisis should be taken into consideration with any immigration. Imagine if it were easy to get an H1B, but you are restricted to work for some number of years in a state that actually wants more people (aka not New York or California).
- einszwei 4y ago
  The problem with Canada is their housing market is open to foreign buyers and probably used for money laundering.
- zaptheimpaler 4y ago
  No, this is the rhetoric that one political side pushes because it's convenient. Meanwhile the data shows almost all the housing is owned by either Canadian citizens or corporations. It also shows Canada will rely exclusively on immigrants for population growth by 2030 - it would end up with an aging population and no one to pay the taxes supporting pensions if they didn't. Most of Vancouver is zoned for single/dual families only so it's impossible to construct more housing. Of course prices rise when they don't let supply rise to match demand
  - mardifoufs 4y ago
    You can become a canadian citizen 3 years after getting your PR, usually. It would make sense for high earners to wait a few years before buying, and by that time they are already citizens. I might be completely wrong, but I just don't see how citizenship of the owners really disprove anything.
  - whimsicalism 4y ago
    It's not just a question of ownership if you consider the pricing of rental substitutes and how that impacts the pricing of owning.
  - thehappypm 4y ago
jmpman 4y ago
As an American citizen, the problem I see with H1B is that when demand declines, and US citizens start to lose their jobs, the H1B continue to be issued, and renewed. I’d prefer a system which monitors US citizen college graduates employment rate, and adjusts the H1Bs accordingly. There’s currently no feedback system other than large corporations hiring lobbyists to push for higher and higher quotas.
MrMan 4y ago
We need open borders or something close to it. We should be recruiting like a sports team paying people to come here.
mikewarot 4y ago
I'm opposed to anything that creates a second class citizen pool in the US. Obviously our immigration system is due for reform. In the end, it should be an all or nothing thing. You're either a guest on holiday, or you have a path to citizenship. We shouldn't have workers who can't benefit from their long term contributions to our society. My strong opinion is that anyone who resides here, regardless of origin, should be given a fair, and reasonable path to US Citizenship. An amnesty date should be set, and enforced. We should not have an internal pool of serfs driving down wages. We should also eliminate private prisons, and prison industrial complex.

145 points by JSeymourATL 4y ago

we are on the verge of having to pay our own, (sorry for the snark, and I do welcome any efforts that decrease antiscience attitudes)

curiousllama 4y ago
Are STEM PhDs in the private sector struggling?
- HarryHirsch 4y ago
  Around 2000, in Chemical & Engineering News, the organ of the American Chemical Society, there were 12 - 15 pages of job ads, a good chunk industrial. Now there are maybe 3 - 4 pages, most academic. Friend, you have no clue how much better it used to be!
  - qaq 4y ago
    Can it be that between 2000 and 2022 there was a shift to Linkedin and other resources as a primary place for the commercial job ads?
    - jleyank 4y ago
      PhD chemist hiring is about the best it’s been since the 60’s. It’s just that paper media aren’t in the workflow anymore.
      - HarryHirsch 4y ago
        It's picking up again but isn't anywhere near mid-1990's level.
        jleyank 4y ago
        This isn't what I hear in the medchem biz. But then, that's not the same as the chemist biz, nor is it located in the same places. The coastal biotech/pharma sites are in a staggering boom.

whimsicalism 4y ago

The government thinks our salaries are too high

wyldfire 4y ago
The companies that hire these engineers either pay them to work there or pay them to work here. So you are competing with them regardless. But the US can benefit from both migrant farm workers and skilled laborer immigrants. And unless you're one of the few natives in the US, your ancestors got the same benefit. Let's just let them immigrate here and then we get the benefit of their expertise and their culture.
- geraldwhen 4y ago
  This is patently false. Beyond a certain headcount you run into regulatory issues in India and China. And the timezone issue alone makes a lot of work untenable.
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  There are clear benefits to the employer to being able to pay them to work here. Personally, I think people underestimate the unique talent in the west coast of the US, so wages will not be immediately depressed - but it is clear that this is a move premised on the idea that we have to lower the salaries of technical workers in the US.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
FooBarBizBazz 4y ago
If you listen to what the Fed says, it actually does. It thinks unemployment is too low.
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  But that's about general conditions in the labor market - this is the government specifically singling out technical workers in the US as being overpaid.

Sakos 4y ago

How about Congress ensuring better pay for their existing population?

qaq 4y ago
You do realize that leading world in R&D is a prerequisite to having high paying jobs?
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  We already lead the world in R&D.
  - qaq 4y ago
    Yes that is a static state no need to compete for talent
- uuee 4y ago
curiousllama 4y ago
You mean by pouring money into the sectors where these immigrants would theoretically work? > China competition bills passed in the last year by the House and Senate seek to pour money into the National Science Foundation and other federal research agencies. They also seek to incentivize high-tech companies, especially those that manufacture semiconductors, to build facilities in the U.S. Looks like they're on it.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mpyne 4y ago
If immigrants are coming into fill high-paying jobs, then by definition there is already an ability for the existing population to get better pay: fill those high-paying jobs! That is already accounted for in programs like H1B. If the job remains high-paying even with H1Bs then we clearly have room for more people to join the labor market, including immigrants.

xwdv 4y ago

wreath 4y ago
Can you elaborate on why is that?
- whatshisface 4y ago
  Because they are American-educated and a demographic can't beat themselves.
rebelos 4y ago
I've got a news flash for you about the scientists that America is educating...
- xwdv 4y ago
  Must be educated in America, not in home countries.
sharkster711 4y ago
Most American educated scientists aren't American, unless that's what you meant.

curiousllama 4y ago

> Current U.S. immigration law limits the number of green cards issued per country, and people from populous countries like India and China are disproportionately affected. It still shocks me how many of my friends from $top_US_university got kicked out of the country (or almost did, saved only by marriage). Like, do we really want to kick out a half-Iranian nuclear engineer, who now wants to work as a SWE, because they were born in India? I get that we can't open the flood gates. But it _does_ make a bit of sense to retain the top % of immigrants based on education in scarce fields, no?

shadowgovt 4y ago
Never accuse American immigration policy of either intelligence or foresight.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  Oh, it's plenty intelligent enough. Farming, construction, landscaping, etc all need undocumented labor over 'legal' labor, all around the country, but especially in farm country. Do you really believe that they honestly do not want migrant labor coming over the borders? No payroll taxes/benefits, and undocumented workers are much easier to exploit. They are highly unlikely to go to the cops about anything criminal that happens on the job, or to OSHA about any workplace safety violations, or to the district attorney about wage theft, and so on. They fear getting deported or tossed in jail. They're also socially isolated by various barriers - language, racial prejudice, and so on...so word of shady stuff going on is a lot less likely to make its way out. Don't want anyone to find out about your toxic waste dumping? Have your migrant workers do it. Also, migrant workers will do a lot of shit jobs that a lot of Americans just don't want to do, or at least not at fair market value labor rates that the business would be "sustainable" at. Meanwhile, politicians shout about how that migrant worker is stealing your job and so on. So they get the $$$ from the people who want exploitable labor, and the votes from the Pickup Truck Petes who think those "illegals" are "stealin' our jobs" and so on. It's not far off from why education is so poorly funded and constantly under various attacks in the US. There's a lot of wealthy people who want easily manipulated, uneducated, trapped-in-poverty workers to exploit. This is also why abortion is under constant attack; access to family planning is a huge factor to people escaping poverty.

sharkster711 4y ago

I moved myself and my job to Canada (L6 engineer at FAANG). It's been alright, I wish I could stay but didn't really see a way forward in the USA, immigration-wise. I think folks in the US fail to see that they'll be competing with engineers of other nationalities - regardless of if they're in the USA or outside, and there's really nothing that Congress or anyone else can do to prevent remote jobs (and the trickle-down monies) from leaving the country.

saghm 4y ago
IIRC US citizens are still required to pay income tax to the US even when working and living abroad, which definitely stops some money from flowing outwards. There's probably a way to complete renounce one's US citizenship, but given how it likely would be hard to reenter the country to visit family or friends once you do that, I think the tradeoff ends up being a lot more than people are willing to give up compared to simply moving abroad.
- Retric 4y ago
  Renouncing US citizenship happens but the the exit tax make it makes it less appealing for the wealthy. “The exit tax is calculated as a capital gains tax if all assets were sold on the day of renunciation.” There are also social security implications for workers which make switching midway through a career more costly.
  - CameronNemo 4y ago
    I wish states could do this. Instead people can make a bunch of gains while living in Oregon (for example), then move to Idaho and not owe anything to Oregon. Even if the capital gains were accrued while they lived in Oregon and benefited from that residency.
    - drugstorecowboy 4y ago
      How would this work exactly? I buy stock in Oregon and live there for 5 years holding the stock. I then move to Idaho and sell the stock for a profit. How would you calculate what percent of the taxes should go where? Was Oregon doing something during those five years of your stock sitting in an account that makes them deserve that money? Perhaps if Oregon had similar tax policies to Idaho people would buy stock in Idaho and cash out in Oregon balancing out any "lost" taxes...

flavius29663 4y ago

Immigration in the US is such a joke. I understand and agree that the US cannot let everyone in (you would end up with 100 mil people per year), but the current system is too screwed up. If you want to do everything legally, you have to wait/work years, and even if you have all the papers in order, too many times it's a matter of luck or a government employee disposition on that day. Be an illegal, and you can just walk through the border. The USA could attract much more talent and better immigrants in general, if they just made it all based on qualifications and points, like for example Australia.

deleted 4y ago
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Layke1123 4y ago
Why? That used to be the US's exact policy. It's even carved into the Statue of Liberty.
- rhexs 4y ago
  What? That’s just propaganda — it’s a poem, not a historical record of United States immigration policy. Any county actively seeking to import those in poverty is gonna have a fun time competing on the international stage.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    Australia used to be a dumping ground for literal convicts, so maybe the OP has a point
  - Layke1123 4y ago
    So all the Irish that came over weren't poor?
rayiner 4y ago
What makes them “better immigrants?” Until the mid 20th century America took the poorest and least educated immigrants and it worked out pretty well. It’s not clear to me that importing other countries’ elites is a better tack.

yboris 4y ago

One of the most important ideas out there: Open Borders I think it's the only sensible policy if you are egalitarian and cosmopolitan. https://openborders.info/ https://openborders.info/

refurb 4y ago
This could never work. First off, you can't offer social programs to the entire world's poor without going broke. So you could just offer them to citizens (as per Singapore), but on top of that you need to kick everyone out who shouldn't be there otherwise you end up with a massive underclass and huge social problems.
jleyank 4y ago
Today,I would think the us isn’t either one of these…
UmbertoNoEco 4y ago
I am very partial to open borders, but I concede there is not a practical solution yet. There is a book (I forgot the title at this time) of an economist where he "shows" (fwiw) how open borders could multiply the world productivity by a high factor, decreasing global inequality and other many positive effects. On the other hand there is the risk that an idyllic and safe community may be overrun but people who dont respect or adapt to the new environment. For me a (still very theoretical) situation would be: - People still keep their current nationalities - Everyone has the right to a 3-month tourist visa to any country, no question asked, unless you are a fugitive o has been banned from leaving your country for some valid reason. You can return to the country if you want, 180 days after leaving it. - If you get a job offer you have the right to a 1 year probationary working visa. You must stay for a least 6 months, but after that you can switch jobs if you want. If you are fired within the first 6 months, you still receive 6 month- 1 year permit to get a new job without having to leave the country. After the first year, you get a 2 year permit and after that you can get permanent residency if you want. - If you commit any serious crime (say, having to serve +6 months) you are immediately deported and banned forever from that country,another of that offenses and you can't leave your country of origin. - If you overstay your visa you must be also "punished" with some kind of temporary banning on your passport, heavier penalties for repeating offenders. I know this is still very naive and crude, but we need to move towards a refined system in that style. The better we improve the big inequalities we have in the world the easier will be to implement it ( I know, I know). For me it is very absurd how just because of a simple accident of where one was born it may be forbidden to visit or work in a good portion of this planet. I am optimistic in the very long term, future generations will see this situation as absurd as we see now things like serfdom,having to swear loyalty to God and King or the probably mythical prima noctis notion.

pm90 4y ago

Important to note that the proposal is to lift green card caps on PHD holders. Certainly not opening any “floodgates”.

immigrantheart 4y ago

I thought US immigration system is not geared toward helping US competitiveness, but diversity and family reunification. Besides, PhDs in other countries like say, Indonesia for example, won't be as good as PhDs in other first world countries. The second/third order effects would be that these opens up for immigration/education fraud from countries which populations really want to go to the US. I can already imagine. Can the US job market absorb for these PhDs?

hardwaresofton 4y ago

I wonder if this is the thing YC/Seibel was working on

screye 4y ago

I am going to address the elephant in the room. "[1.] Can a country train mediocre domestic performers to the productivity of the top 1% of other nations, while staying competitive?" OR "[1a.] Can America's 25th percentile out-compete the 1 percentile of other countries"? OR "[1b.] Nurture, but to what extent?" It is pointless to have numerous discussions go around in circles, while no one is willing to address the awkward musical chair that stays empty. If [1.] is true, then there is a strong case towards reducing immigration. If not, then immigration is the only way a country can maintain a developmental advantage. _______ I understand that this kind of question can quickly head towards Eugenics if the discussion isn't careful or in immense good faith. However, it must be glaringly obvious to every smart person that careful inquiry around question [1.] is central to actually figuring out a solution that moves past propaganda that ideological goals. While I am digging myself into a hole, I am going to state a few more such questions: [2.] If the pareto principle is true, then is there a hard capability threshold past which immigrants should be avoided ? [3.] If economic immigrants are a net drain, then what level of additional tax on immigrants makes them a positive addition to the system? [4.] Can someone please explain these graphs to me ? [g1][g2][g3][g4] . Isn't this a contradiction ? [5.] What percent of a representative human population can 'learn to code' at a professional level? _______ To be very clear, I do not equate capability or intelligence to IQ or any one-dimensional SAT-like test. I will leave it upto the reader to interpret 'general intelligence / capability / economic productivity/ human value' as they see fit. Also, this is a purely economic perspective towards immigration. I am keeping morals/need/ideology for another time. _______ [g1] https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/ft_2020.08.20_immigrants_01.png https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/ft_20... [g2] https://www.statista.com/statistics/199958/number-of-green-cards-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/199958/number-of-green-c... [g3] https://www.statista.com/statistics/200061/number-of-refugees-arriving-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/200061/number-of-refugee... [g4] https://www.migrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/source_charts/frs-2022-fig1.png https://www.migrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/source_c...

blululu 4y ago
1.) Probably not, but what is the prize here? San Francisco is a beautiful city, but people constantly complain about the fact that it is overrun by yuppie tech people who have zero connection with the place and who frequently express their disdain for the city. The city crushing it by any metric of global success, and yet it still has a ton of problems. It's not the best place to raise kids, it has a lot of social woes and it doesn't really provide much benefit for a lot of ordinary people who grew up there. Having the smartest people has a lot of benefits, but you also need to have some policy to make sure that these benefits actually trickle down. 1.a). Probably not, but again what is the prize here? Belgium's top 50% is pretty top notch, but with ~10M people, this is still just a drop in the Ocean. They can still have a plenty nice country though. 1.b.) Both, but it's nice to invest in your communities. A lot of people would mention that they learned a lot of what they know on the job and not in school. If you look at American high school math scores, the country is a joke. If you look at American engineers, it starts to become a serious contender (either the tests are missing something big or Americans are learning some interesting tricks along the way).

jmyeet 4y ago

This is a fairly minor reform as it only applies to those who hold PhD degrees. The plight of Indian-born nationals (in particular) is well-known but largely unaddressed by this bill. But the most interesting part to me was this: > In the defense industrial-base sector, which includes aerospace and weapons development for the U.S. military, half of the advanced STEM degree holders are foreign-born, according to the Institute for Progress. That... is surprising. Don't those working in defense or sensitive industries need to be at a minimum permanent residents and in some cases US citizens? I mean, you need to be a US permanent resident or citizen to work at SpaceX, for example. I'm honestly surprised the US government hasn't gone so far as to exclude Chinese-born individuals to work in certain sensitive industries given the well-documented wholesale IP theft that the CCP engages in. This too could also apply to Israel, especially given the dominance os Israeli firms in selling 0days to pretty much any foreign government.

quantumduck 4y ago
There is ITAR, and no you can't just get an advanced degree and work in defense and space industry on sensitive projects. The half the article is talking about likely fall into the following categories: (I) they got their advanced degree many years ago when it was easier to get a green card and are permanent residents/citizens by now. Tons of people like this in NASA, ONR, etc. (ii) they work for a defense subcontractor on something that's not classified as sensitive.

opportune 4y ago

The way the US treats Indian (and other large countries, but India has it worst) H1B holders is disgusting. You can work in the US for over a decade and start a family, and still be on a visa which requires you to leave the country if you spend just a bit of time unemployed. And it makes it very hard to switch jobs. I wish this weren't tied to getting just a PhD though. We are already over-incentivizing getting advanced degrees in the US for immigration purposes. While this technically exempts foreign degree holders from the GC quota, those people still need to get work authorization to begin with, so it does increase the incentive to do a PhD in the US for regular work immigration purposes since that also gives you work authorization via OPT. I don't see any reason to keep per-country GC quotas in place. It punishes individuals for almost no reason - it doesn't actually prevent immigration (since we still grant work visas with temporary residence - that's a separate process from getting a GC), it just keeps immigrants in precarious positions for much longer than others purely on the basis of nationality. I can't think of a legit reason to do this that doesn't either boil down to racism/xenophobia or some kind of innumerate argument that it's unfair for countries with more immigrants to be given more GCs.

Mikeb85 4y ago
> You can work in the US for over a decade and start a family, and still be on a visa which requires you to leave the country if you spend just a bit of time unemployed. And it makes it very hard to switch jobs. Unfortunately that's the point. These visas aren't designed to make it easy to permanently settle, they're designed to provide lower-cost labour and remove employee bargaining power.
- opportune 4y ago
  Even so, it doesn't make sense to concentrate the pain on the basis of nationality.
  - digianarchist 4y ago
    Country of birth not nationality.

Thorentis 4y ago

Terrible idea. Instead, US companies should be forced to hire a minimum percentage of US citizens. If they can't find enough talent locally, this will incentivise them to upskill the local population. Paying for traineeships, college degrees, funding technical colleges, and so on. If there is a skill shortage domestically, the response should not be "let's bring in more immigrants".

hemreldop 4y ago
rhexs 4y ago
Completely agree. It’s strange to me that this idea, a country taking care of its own citizens first and foremost, is considered an extremist, “xenophobic” policy in this day and age. Love the article as well —- “We need to drive down salaries..because..uh, China!” Especially with interest rates rising, layoffs increasing, a potential recession inbound. The absolute gall of our collective leaders.
ldjkfkdsjnv 4y ago
Yup, its ridiculous what goes on with immigration. Really common for all immigrant orgs in big tech to just prefer hiring their own.
sbelskie 4y ago
Should California force SV tech companies to hire a minimum percentage of people from CA?
- NHQ 4y ago
  That would be CA's interest because those employees will definitely be paying state income tax.
  - sbelskie 4y ago
    Sorry, I meant this more in terms of state residency. Remote stuff obviously makes the question more complicated, but I meant currently existing residents of CA vs. people from other states who would move to California and also pay state income tax, similar to the US immigration question.

greatwhitenorth 4y ago

It's amazing how US randomly chooses 50000 people every year through a lottery and provide them with green card but wouldn't provide the same number to backlogged skilled employees who are already in the country for 10+ years, paying taxes, contributing to the country, and vetted multiple times through interviews and immigration.

paulpauper 4y ago

On math exchange and other sites, a good chunk of top scorers are ex-US. Some of this is due to greater population, but its evidence also there is considerable talent overseas which may still be untapped.

rg111 4y ago
This is completely based on personal experience, and a significant amount at that. Most Indians who study Physics/CS/Math/Engg. do that because they want a high paying job and social prestige. Most Americans who study these, are genuinely interested in these subjects. They are passionate about these.
- dr_spicy 4y ago
  Purely anecdotally, but it seemed like the majority of the students in my college classes, American or not, were probably more interested in the money than passionate
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  This is a well studied developed vs developing world gap. An interesting corollary that appears to be related is that the gender gap in STEM is much less large in the developing world.

thehappypm 4y ago

Immigration of high earners is destroying Canada. Housing prices in Toronto and Vancouver and many other desirable metros are absolutely exploding, and they keep importing more high earners and boosting competition. America’s housing crisis is not yet so bad, but I think a housing crisis should be taken into consideration with any immigration. Imagine if it were easy to get an H1B, but you are restricted to work for some number of years in a state that actually wants more people (aka not New York or California).

einszwei 4y ago
The problem with Canada is their housing market is open to foreign buyers and probably used for money laundering.
zaptheimpaler 4y ago
No, this is the rhetoric that one political side pushes because it's convenient. Meanwhile the data shows almost all the housing is owned by either Canadian citizens or corporations. It also shows Canada will rely exclusively on immigrants for population growth by 2030 - it would end up with an aging population and no one to pay the taxes supporting pensions if they didn't. Most of Vancouver is zoned for single/dual families only so it's impossible to construct more housing. Of course prices rise when they don't let supply rise to match demand
- mardifoufs 4y ago
  You can become a canadian citizen 3 years after getting your PR, usually. It would make sense for high earners to wait a few years before buying, and by that time they are already citizens. I might be completely wrong, but I just don't see how citizenship of the owners really disprove anything.
- whimsicalism 4y ago
  It's not just a question of ownership if you consider the pricing of rental substitutes and how that impacts the pricing of owning.
- thehappypm 4y ago

jmpman 4y ago

As an American citizen, the problem I see with H1B is that when demand declines, and US citizens start to lose their jobs, the H1B continue to be issued, and renewed. I’d prefer a system which monitors US citizen college graduates employment rate, and adjusts the H1Bs accordingly. There’s currently no feedback system other than large corporations hiring lobbyists to push for higher and higher quotas.

MrMan 4y ago

We need open borders or something close to it. We should be recruiting like a sports team paying people to come here.

mikewarot 4y ago

I'm opposed to anything that creates a second class citizen pool in the US. Obviously our immigration system is due for reform. In the end, it should be an all or nothing thing. You're either a guest on holiday, or you have a path to citizenship. We shouldn't have workers who can't benefit from their long term contributions to our society. My strong opinion is that anyone who resides here, regardless of origin, should be given a fair, and reasonable path to US Citizenship. An amnesty date should be set, and enforced. We should not have an internal pool of serfs driving down wages. We should also eliminate private prisons, and prison industrial complex.