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"I don't want to use a Mac" "I've had these problems with Mac" Reasonable response: Cool, use what works for you. EDIT> Here are some suggestions that m

** "I don't want to use a Mac" ** "I've had these problems with Mac" Reasonable response: Cool, use what works for you. EDIT> Here are some suggestions that match your constraints. Annoying response 1: You should reconsider because Mac works great for me. Annoying response 2: Your problems aren't real problems. Annoying response 3: Let's live debug your problems in this thread to see if they're real problems. Guys. I mean. Seriously.

fortran77 4y ago
Proper response 1: Ignore this whole thread.
ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
It's every Ask HN thread, every time I want to ask a question here I give up because I find myself listing the obvious, requirement-breaking answers that I know will come but that I don't want to see. It's not like stack-overflow where often the users are beginners and don't know what they want and it's sometimes helpful to point out XY problems. Here people are technically literate and know what they want yet the requirements are still ignored.
- nanidin 4y ago
  I guess that if someone can’t articulate why they do or don’t want something, someone who is passionate about that thing sees their chance to help someone see the light. I then guess that the solution to giving requirements like “not a mac” is to also articulate why at a level that the audience will respect. OP has already made the mistake of asking for something very broad in the title, then asking for something very specific in the body. If the title read “Linux laptop” I doubt they would have as many people in the comments suggesting anything else.
  - akhmatova 4y ago
    If the title read “Linux laptop” I doubt they would have as many people in the comments suggesting anything else. Sorry, but that's a cop-out. As others have point out, the real problem is "people just don't read these days". Not even the top few lines of a post. If they did, they would have had no problem finding this important qualifier: I have no intention of using Windows/MacOS
    - nanidin 4y ago
      I don't agree - I think if the original poster adhered to something like "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way: Use meaningful, specific subject headers" [0] then we would not even be having this conversation because the original poster would have found their target audience of Linux Laptop Recommenders rather than a bunch of people that arrived to comment their favorite laptop and found that they were cut off by the original poster with no real explanation for WHY Windows/MacOS are not acceptable. It would be similar to "Ask HN: Which text editor should I use for software development" with a body that contains "I have no intention of using an IDE or mouse". It's a poorly formed request if your intent is to ask for recommendations amongst the keyboard driven tiled editors. [0] http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#bespecific http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#bespecifi...
- banal00 4y ago
  Because there is no answer to this question. Failure rates are pretty much the same given normalized manufacturing and part sourcing. And the fit and finish debate have been semantically mined to death. User knows constraints, just pick one! This is not the sort of choice that needs a support group.
- helmholtz 4y ago
  Like all the "just use Org-Mode" comments. God, if I see one more Org Mode recomendation I might just burst!
  - er4hn 4y ago
    Didja know you can use org-mode to handle this as a todo? For example: ** TODO: Install NixOs and learn how to use declarative configuration. ** TODO: Burst from hearing about the power of org-mode. Then you can use C-c C-t to rotate the TODO's as you carry them out! (All comments tongue in cheek from a vim amateur user)
- philtar 4y ago
- electroly 4y ago
  IMO it goes beyond Ask HN. If you make a post and you know people are going to make a particular reply, it doesn't matter if you preemptively address that reply right in your post; you're going to get that reply anyway. People skim, they don't read, and they don't think deeply about posts. They're just pattern matching on a couple words and slamming out a reply. The reply is practically locked and loaded before you even made the post.
  - 300bps 4y ago
    People are in such a hurry to talk, they don’t listen.
  - warrenm 4y ago
    A better Ask HN title would've been "of these 4 Linux-based laptops, what are your experiences"
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      The current title gets way more eyeballs and engagement. I say that only one-quarter jokingly.
      - warrenm 4y ago
        sadly ... you're probably right :|
  - conductr 4y ago
    Agree. Also I feel like most ask hn are just questions and that’s it. No need to sift through the asker’s specifications on how they’d like everyone to answer. So I feel like when an asker expects that, it’s not likely to be respected by all. It’s just a quirk of hn.
- syngrog66 4y ago
  I suspect its because a shamefully large percentage of Ask HN and Show HN are stupid or lazy "Guys how do I learn math?" "Are there any apps that let you type in numbers and add them together?" "Is there any way I can ask questions to strangers on the web so I dont have to type the equivalent into the Google search bar or look it up on Wikipedia, YouTube, Amazon, library etc etc etc etc?" granted my most generous interpretation of this phenomenon is that many of these cases are "kids at keyboard" phenomenon. but its frustrating at times seeing it repeat endlessly here.
cruano 4y ago
Should have put that on the title I mean, it's already kind of stupid to want to avoid something the whole industry uses, from big tech to startups. In particular, when you have a very hard set of requirements that historically no one gets right except for you know who.
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  > I mean, it's already kind of stupid to want to avoid something the whole industry uses, from big tech to startups Windows still owns the market to a substantial degree, Macos is still a niche OS. Maybe you've seen a trend of software companies moving to Macos, but it's definitely not the standard by any means.
  - rileyphone 4y ago
    That's not entirely true these days, Mac market share has gone up from 5% to ~15% in the last 10 years while Windows sits on its hands. https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide/#monthly-200901-202203 https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide...
    - thawaya3113 4y ago
      Which still means that more than 5 out of 6 computers are not Macs. Which is as diametrically opposite of the industry standard as you can get.
    - bluefirebrand 4y ago
      I'm not sure how you can look at Windows: 75% MacOs: 15% and then try and dispute what I said. Those numbers aren't even close. Sure, maybe MacOs is growing, and less niche than it used to be. I'm not disputing that. But come on here.
  - mmis1000 4y ago
    Mac is probably a good dev machine. But for production and service…? I don't think so. It is currently the most unstable system I ever met. I need to reboot it due to completely un-addressable memory leak and lag (the cpu is idle, the memory isn't starved, disk don't really have much io and it still lags) from time to time if I keep it on for a long time.
c0mptonFP 4y ago
Dude, operating system is one of the most fundamental things to consider when getting a dev machine. MacOS is literally useless for me, because I depend on the Linux kernel.
- selfmodruntime 4y ago
  You can still install Linux on a mac (which is what I did) and still get a powerful and beautiful machine, if you so desire.
  - fabianhjr 4y ago
    There is almost no firmware support for the recent aarch64 Mac hardware.
  - vinceguidry 4y ago
    Least-worst option if you're stuck running OSX is to run a Linux VM. VMWare makes probably the best solution.
  - raxxorraxor 4y ago
    I use a Mac Book from time to time and the keyboard alone is special... I don't think Mac is a good universal machine for development to be honest. The devices overall are nice, out of the question, but a Linux machine is ultimately more powerful.
    - swozey 4y ago
      "Ultimately more powerful" As a previous BSD engineer please explain further, this entire thread is just horrendous and should be downvoted to oblivion. Nobody cares what laptop you decide to use, nor are you incapable of doing your own research. My grandmother calls me for laptop recommendations. My M1 Max 14" MBP has 64gb ram, mucho cores and is the fastest machine I've used. My gaming/dev desktop is a 12core ryzen with 64gb and I prefer to use the Macbook which can sit on my lap without even having a fan running. Did I used to hate Apple? Yes. Do I have a $2500 Dell XPS 13z sitting in a closet that I never use because it throttles so horribly it's useless? Yes.
Linda703 4y ago
[flagged]
emacs28 4y ago
One thing that deters me a bit from using macOS is the slower docker performance compared to linux. Anyone here have workarounds for this?
- hk__2 4y ago
  What’s your use-case? I have no issue with Docker perf on macOS …because I don’t have anything Docker-based that’s perf-intensive.
- oauea 4y ago
  > Anyone here have workarounds for this? Sure, use Linux.
  - fernandotakai 4y ago
    that's what i did until the company i work for made me use a macbook :( now i have to deal with horrible performance everywhere because of falcon agent and docker.
- blablabla123 4y ago
  The biggest problem seems to be the slow disk performance when working with volumes. At least in personal projects I could make this fast by making use of Docker's caching in creative ways. E.g. first copying the package deps, installing them and afterwards copying the (often changing) source. Also sometimes when a volume is needed it can be enough to make it a single file volume.
- rileymichael 4y ago
  Using VirtioFS and the new virtualization framework makes it bearable.
- unilynx 4y ago
  If your work is even a bit I/O sensitive, avoid mounting OSX folders and use named volume mounts. They are much faster as they don't cross the virtualisation boundary but you need to be careful to not destroy them if they contain data you wanted to keep For me personally, disable the new virtualization framework and gfuse options. I hope they're working better for others, but I'm not seeing any benefits yet and CPU usage dropped significantly after disabling these
jotm 4y ago
I mean, if the hardware runs Linux well, it's not that ridiculous to recommend it. Forget the Apple software part.
- neogodless 4y ago
  Can everyone that has spent at least one month using Linux on an M1 as a daily driver please respond with their experiences, so we know that this "Linux on an M1" recommendation is valid?
  - rxhernandez 4y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31094361#31098178 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31094361#31098178
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- fulafel 4y ago
  We know the current hw doesn't.
- rxhernandez 4y ago
  It doesn't run linux anywhere near as well as a X1 Carbon. I get daily crashes on a fresh install on a M1 Mac after only a couple weeks of having it. My X1 Carbon has been running strong for nearly a year with no memorable crashes during that time period. There's software I can't even install because there aren't arm versions of it available.
bodge5000 4y ago
The one big thing thats always deterred me from Macs is the poor ecosystem for gaming. I dont play a lot of games anymore, but its a pretty reliable way of getting some much needed socialising in so I probably wouldn't want to lose it completely. The problem is most workarounds I've seen are either to severly limit the games I can play or to get another computer/console for playing games, which just seems to be turning one problem into two. You can't even dualboot anymore, now that we have M1.
- dionian 4y ago
  i use a pc for gaming and mac for dev
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  I use a console for gaming and a Mac for a daily driver. I never really got into PC gaming, though, I've always felt like the console experience was better. At least for the games I enjoy playing.
  - bodge5000 4y ago
    I'd love to get a console, it'd make things so much easier (pretty much any bog standard laptop would work for me otherwise), but none of my friends are on console
deleted 4y ago
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rmbyrro 4y ago
Why Mac seems to attract so fanatic behavior? They seem to want to push everyone to use Mac, like religious fanatics try to push everyone to their "truth". I think this is a result of some marketing tactics Apple employed for decades, and it only pushes me away from this brand.
- thawaya3113 4y ago
  Another part of it is that people have spent so much money buying into the Mac eco system and they find that its not the heavenly like existence they were led to believe it would be. So they need external validation for their choice, which they get by seeing everyone else switching to the Mac ecosystem as well.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  > result of some marketing tactics Apple employed for decades Or perhaps people really like macOS and their value system is different. I don't think a lot of developers are buying macs due to marketing. Also, Linux attracts the same fanatic behavior. If you like linux, you don't notice see how many people are pushing it. If you like macOS, you're more likely to notice the people pushing linux because you disagree with them. (And notice the macOS crowd less.)
  - emptyfile 4y ago
    >I don't think a lot of developers are buying macs due to marketing. I've never seen a developer with a macbook in my country. The idea sounds absurd. Unless you need Final Cut or whatever, Apple is considered a status brand in many parts of the world.
    - hexo 4y ago
      In where I live there's a ton of devs using macs. The idea sounds absurd, too. Even more absurd when you realize they're mostly developing stuff that will ultimately run on Linux.
      - 4y ago
ramblerman 4y ago
Your comment is currently on top, so instead of laptop recommendations, we have yet another navel gazing meta discussion about HN and it's tendencies.
- hinkley 4y ago
  And hardly any mention of Mac in the next twenty top comments…
- usui 4y ago
  I've read the entire thread and took note of all the top-level responses that talked about Macs before the parent was posted versus the ones not talking about Macs. There are what, 4-5 mentions about getting a Mac out of dozens of non-Mac recommendations? Barely anyone gave those Mac comments attention before they were downvoted to the end anyway. Parent just seems to have an axe to grind and took the opportunity to hijack a thread about recommendations.
banal00 4y ago
These posts are annoying, IMO. Reviews and blogs posts about them are everywhere by like minded readers, and this is the discourse such posts bubble up every time here. Guys. I mean. Seriously. It’s a laptop. It’s not worth a request for comments every week.
- kellogs_aran 4y ago
  Hi. OP here. I did do some reading before posting. Here are some of the threads I had read before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21302412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21302412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28861949 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28861949 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28216287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28216287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28023345 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28023345 None of the threads seemed to have a consensus e.g. some swear by the Dell XPS 13, others say the laptop has been a crap experience more or less. Others still prefer Lenovo Thinkpad variants, and even these have those who've had negative experiences. I was hoping for a winner of some sort or at least a list of recommended laptops that I can bookmark and spend time reading reviews of. Hope that makes sense and sorry for the inconvenience caused.
  - pflanze 4y ago
    I'm happy for your post (I might be about to look into deciding for a laptop, too, and unlike general review sites the discussion here is centred on the use for a particular community we're part of), and honestly I find JabavuAdams' post pretty toxic (it does elicit more heated arguments). The annoying thing here in my view is this sub-thread, not your post.
    - kellogs_aran 4y ago
      Thanks stranger :)
  - banal00 4y ago
    Look I’ve designed electronics for big corp; if you used the internet 99-2004, parts I designed probably switched your packets, or boosted signal. You’re trying to predict your future. No one here can help with that. You know your philosophical constraints. Hardware across vendors fails at largely the same rate due to normalized manufacture and sourcing patterns now. It all comes from the same few parts bins pretty much. The key specs are listed on each site. Reality is you have roughly the same risk of getting a lemon or finding a laundry list of nitpicks with any choice.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
FrozenSynapse 4y ago
Macbook Pro sucks, I cannot remember a laptop that is hotter (and throttles) than my current mac, and it's expensive
outcoldman 4y ago
Second this. If you want a laptop for development - get MacBook. I used to be a die-hard Windows guy about 10 years ago. After that switched to Linux on my Desktop and used it for a year. When I switched job they gave me MBP 2011 model, I hated it. The OS, but not the laptop. The new 2015 MBP were complete garbage, but I got used to macOS. The M1 laptops are the only laptops I would suggest to anybody. The battery life is so amazing, no overheating issues, I love it. My work also depends on Linux, I have my own company, that provides tools for monitoring Kubernetes, OpenShift and Docker. Only OpenShift is sketchy on arm64, everything else works great. https://github.com/lima-vm/lima https://github.com/lima-vm/lima is a great tool to run Linux VM. Also Docker for Mac and Rancher Desktop both work perfectly! But switching to Mac could be a challenge. I was always big fun of Thinkpad laptops, especially X1 Carbon. My wife uses it (she is Windows geek). But obviously this laptop is a laptop, not a computing machine. If you need computing power, just go to Costco and get yourself a gaming laptop with good video card (3060 would be in your price range). Read this https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLaptops/comments/srxtrx/gaming_laptops/ https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLaptops/comments/srxtrx/gamin... to see which laptop provides enough power to the graphics card. But of course those gaming laptops are more like desktops you can easily move. The power bricks are huge, and laptops are heavy. Another option to consider is to get a Desktop, you can buy used Workstations/Servers from companies like https://tekboost.com/ https://tekboost.com/ I got from them 2 x Nvidia Quadro M4000 8GB, Dual Xeon E5-2680V4 2.4GHz 14C, 256GB RAM for about 4k. For 2k I am sure you can find something that can fit your budget.
ecf 4y ago
> Reasonable response I scrolled down pretty far and didn’t see a single top-level comment anywhere close to what you’re describing about people blindly advocating Macs. Maybe you joined early, but comments like yours bringing up a problem that doesn’t exist is PART of the problem you’re complaining about.
jeffwask 4y ago
hatware 4y ago
I don't think they said they've had problems with Macs. They simply said their intention is not to use Windows or Mac OS. To me, that still leaves room to recommend a Mac. It's not a cult, it's the free market at work.
scelerat 4y ago
There are many angles to take when responding to a query, and when doing so one must consider, and occasionally, question the original premises. In public forums, one should assume both the questions and the answers to be for a wider audience. People are here for the alternate takes, the discussions, etc. Built-in to the interface of this site and many like it are tools to hide threads, in part or in entirety, and to downvote posts or threads deemed inappropriate or irrelevant. I guess my main counterpoint is that it's a bit vain to expect a diverse public forum to be one's own personal consultancy / counsel / etc.
fullstackchris 4y ago
> I mean, guys seriously. But we're serious. OP has created their own nonsensical boundaries with these constraints. Essentially the title is completely misleading apart from the 2K number. If OP is looking specifically for a linux-compatible machine they should have at least mentioned that in the title. It's no suprise at all that these types of answers are in this thread. I saw the title, came here to offer my thoughts about mac options, when I realize that actually "not allowed" by OP's request. It's click baity and almost feels like it was designed to get a rise out of the HN crowd.
- jensensbutton 4y ago
  Really? OP should have put every requirement in the title? You couldn't have just read the requirements then moved on? And because you didn't then OP deserves these nonsense responses? Get a grip.
- NikolaNovak 4y ago
  Love it! There's a meaningful title, and a set of perfectly common and reasonable requirements in an ordered, clear, explicit fashion that we all normally wish requester would follow. But because some jumped in with their own agenda, and feel stifled... now these are "nonsensical boundaries" :-> (Plus, I mean, if somebody wanted a mac... how much advice or options do they need ? Want a mac, get a mac. That part of equation is not exactly complicated, for better or for worse, is it? So let's not pretend this was anything but zealots wanting to chime in :) You do you, Hacker news :)
s3233323 4y ago
raffraffraff 4y ago
Nitpick: he said he didn't want to use MacOS, which doesn't necessarily rule out a MacBook. I hate MacOS but my personal laptop is a 2015 MacBook Pro running MX Linux, and I love it.
throwntoday 4y ago
It's natural for people to be perplexed when OP asks for the best option, is given the best option, and produces an irrational excuse against that option. What are people supposed to say besides, let's help you resolve that excuse?
jazzyjackson 4y ago
Eh, it's a public forum, I made a comment about Macs because I was curious why they were ruled out and a lot of conversation took place below my comment. We are not limited to talking about what OP wants us to talk about.

** "I don't want to use a Mac" ** "I've had these problems with Mac" Reasonable response: Cool, use what works for you. EDIT> Here are some suggestions that m

fortran77 4y ago

Proper response 1: Ignore this whole thread.

ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago

It's every Ask HN thread, every time I want to ask a question here I give up because I find myself listing the obvious, requirement-breaking answers that I know will come but that I don't want to see. It's not like stack-overflow where often the users are beginners and don't know what they want and it's sometimes helpful to point out XY problems. Here people are technically literate and know what they want yet the requirements are still ignored.

nanidin 4y ago
I guess that if someone can’t articulate why they do or don’t want something, someone who is passionate about that thing sees their chance to help someone see the light. I then guess that the solution to giving requirements like “not a mac” is to also articulate why at a level that the audience will respect. OP has already made the mistake of asking for something very broad in the title, then asking for something very specific in the body. If the title read “Linux laptop” I doubt they would have as many people in the comments suggesting anything else.
- akhmatova 4y ago
  If the title read “Linux laptop” I doubt they would have as many people in the comments suggesting anything else. Sorry, but that's a cop-out. As others have point out, the real problem is "people just don't read these days". Not even the top few lines of a post. If they did, they would have had no problem finding this important qualifier: I have no intention of using Windows/MacOS
  - nanidin 4y ago
    I don't agree - I think if the original poster adhered to something like "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way: Use meaningful, specific subject headers" [0] then we would not even be having this conversation because the original poster would have found their target audience of Linux Laptop Recommenders rather than a bunch of people that arrived to comment their favorite laptop and found that they were cut off by the original poster with no real explanation for WHY Windows/MacOS are not acceptable. It would be similar to "Ask HN: Which text editor should I use for software development" with a body that contains "I have no intention of using an IDE or mouse". It's a poorly formed request if your intent is to ask for recommendations amongst the keyboard driven tiled editors. [0] http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#bespecific http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#bespecifi...
banal00 4y ago
Because there is no answer to this question. Failure rates are pretty much the same given normalized manufacturing and part sourcing. And the fit and finish debate have been semantically mined to death. User knows constraints, just pick one! This is not the sort of choice that needs a support group.
helmholtz 4y ago
Like all the "just use Org-Mode" comments. God, if I see one more Org Mode recomendation I might just burst!
- er4hn 4y ago
  Didja know you can use org-mode to handle this as a todo? For example: ** TODO: Install NixOs and learn how to use declarative configuration. ** TODO: Burst from hearing about the power of org-mode. Then you can use C-c C-t to rotate the TODO's as you carry them out! (All comments tongue in cheek from a vim amateur user)
philtar 4y ago
electroly 4y ago
IMO it goes beyond Ask HN. If you make a post and you know people are going to make a particular reply, it doesn't matter if you preemptively address that reply right in your post; you're going to get that reply anyway. People skim, they don't read, and they don't think deeply about posts. They're just pattern matching on a couple words and slamming out a reply. The reply is practically locked and loaded before you even made the post.
- 300bps 4y ago
  People are in such a hurry to talk, they don’t listen.
- warrenm 4y ago
  A better Ask HN title would've been "of these 4 Linux-based laptops, what are your experiences"
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    The current title gets way more eyeballs and engagement. I say that only one-quarter jokingly.
    - warrenm 4y ago
      sadly ... you're probably right :|
- conductr 4y ago
  Agree. Also I feel like most ask hn are just questions and that’s it. No need to sift through the asker’s specifications on how they’d like everyone to answer. So I feel like when an asker expects that, it’s not likely to be respected by all. It’s just a quirk of hn.
syngrog66 4y ago
I suspect its because a shamefully large percentage of Ask HN and Show HN are stupid or lazy "Guys how do I learn math?" "Are there any apps that let you type in numbers and add them together?" "Is there any way I can ask questions to strangers on the web so I dont have to type the equivalent into the Google search bar or look it up on Wikipedia, YouTube, Amazon, library etc etc etc etc?" granted my most generous interpretation of this phenomenon is that many of these cases are "kids at keyboard" phenomenon. but its frustrating at times seeing it repeat endlessly here.

cruano 4y ago

Should have put that on the title I mean, it's already kind of stupid to want to avoid something the whole industry uses, from big tech to startups. In particular, when you have a very hard set of requirements that historically no one gets right except for you know who.

bluefirebrand 4y ago
> I mean, it's already kind of stupid to want to avoid something the whole industry uses, from big tech to startups Windows still owns the market to a substantial degree, Macos is still a niche OS. Maybe you've seen a trend of software companies moving to Macos, but it's definitely not the standard by any means.
- rileyphone 4y ago
  That's not entirely true these days, Mac market share has gone up from 5% to ~15% in the last 10 years while Windows sits on its hands. https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide/#monthly-200901-202203 https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide...
  - thawaya3113 4y ago
    Which still means that more than 5 out of 6 computers are not Macs. Which is as diametrically opposite of the industry standard as you can get.
  - bluefirebrand 4y ago
    I'm not sure how you can look at Windows: 75% MacOs: 15% and then try and dispute what I said. Those numbers aren't even close. Sure, maybe MacOs is growing, and less niche than it used to be. I'm not disputing that. But come on here.
- mmis1000 4y ago
  Mac is probably a good dev machine. But for production and service…? I don't think so. It is currently the most unstable system I ever met. I need to reboot it due to completely un-addressable memory leak and lag (the cpu is idle, the memory isn't starved, disk don't really have much io and it still lags) from time to time if I keep it on for a long time.

c0mptonFP 4y ago

Dude, operating system is one of the most fundamental things to consider when getting a dev machine. MacOS is literally useless for me, because I depend on the Linux kernel.

selfmodruntime 4y ago
You can still install Linux on a mac (which is what I did) and still get a powerful and beautiful machine, if you so desire.
- fabianhjr 4y ago
  There is almost no firmware support for the recent aarch64 Mac hardware.
- vinceguidry 4y ago
  Least-worst option if you're stuck running OSX is to run a Linux VM. VMWare makes probably the best solution.
- raxxorraxor 4y ago
  I use a Mac Book from time to time and the keyboard alone is special... I don't think Mac is a good universal machine for development to be honest. The devices overall are nice, out of the question, but a Linux machine is ultimately more powerful.
  - swozey 4y ago
    "Ultimately more powerful" As a previous BSD engineer please explain further, this entire thread is just horrendous and should be downvoted to oblivion. Nobody cares what laptop you decide to use, nor are you incapable of doing your own research. My grandmother calls me for laptop recommendations. My M1 Max 14" MBP has 64gb ram, mucho cores and is the fastest machine I've used. My gaming/dev desktop is a 12core ryzen with 64gb and I prefer to use the Macbook which can sit on my lap without even having a fan running. Did I used to hate Apple? Yes. Do I have a $2500 Dell XPS 13z sitting in a closet that I never use because it throttles so horribly it's useless? Yes.

Linda703 4y ago

[flagged]

emacs28 4y ago

One thing that deters me a bit from using macOS is the slower docker performance compared to linux. Anyone here have workarounds for this?

hk__2 4y ago
What’s your use-case? I have no issue with Docker perf on macOS …because I don’t have anything Docker-based that’s perf-intensive.
oauea 4y ago
> Anyone here have workarounds for this? Sure, use Linux.
- fernandotakai 4y ago
  that's what i did until the company i work for made me use a macbook :( now i have to deal with horrible performance everywhere because of falcon agent and docker.
blablabla123 4y ago
The biggest problem seems to be the slow disk performance when working with volumes. At least in personal projects I could make this fast by making use of Docker's caching in creative ways. E.g. first copying the package deps, installing them and afterwards copying the (often changing) source. Also sometimes when a volume is needed it can be enough to make it a single file volume.
rileymichael 4y ago
Using VirtioFS and the new virtualization framework makes it bearable.
unilynx 4y ago
If your work is even a bit I/O sensitive, avoid mounting OSX folders and use named volume mounts. They are much faster as they don't cross the virtualisation boundary but you need to be careful to not destroy them if they contain data you wanted to keep For me personally, disable the new virtualization framework and gfuse options. I hope they're working better for others, but I'm not seeing any benefits yet and CPU usage dropped significantly after disabling these

jotm 4y ago

I mean, if the hardware runs Linux well, it's not that ridiculous to recommend it. Forget the Apple software part.

neogodless 4y ago
Can everyone that has spent at least one month using Linux on an M1 as a daily driver please respond with their experiences, so we know that this "Linux on an M1" recommendation is valid?
- rxhernandez 4y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31094361#31098178 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31094361#31098178
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
fulafel 4y ago
We know the current hw doesn't.
rxhernandez 4y ago
It doesn't run linux anywhere near as well as a X1 Carbon. I get daily crashes on a fresh install on a M1 Mac after only a couple weeks of having it. My X1 Carbon has been running strong for nearly a year with no memorable crashes during that time period. There's software I can't even install because there aren't arm versions of it available.

bodge5000 4y ago

The one big thing thats always deterred me from Macs is the poor ecosystem for gaming. I dont play a lot of games anymore, but its a pretty reliable way of getting some much needed socialising in so I probably wouldn't want to lose it completely. The problem is most workarounds I've seen are either to severly limit the games I can play or to get another computer/console for playing games, which just seems to be turning one problem into two. You can't even dualboot anymore, now that we have M1.

dionian 4y ago
i use a pc for gaming and mac for dev
rootusrootus 4y ago
I use a console for gaming and a Mac for a daily driver. I never really got into PC gaming, though, I've always felt like the console experience was better. At least for the games I enjoy playing.
- bodge5000 4y ago
  I'd love to get a console, it'd make things so much easier (pretty much any bog standard laptop would work for me otherwise), but none of my friends are on console

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

rmbyrro 4y ago

Why Mac seems to attract so fanatic behavior? They seem to want to push everyone to use Mac, like religious fanatics try to push everyone to their "truth". I think this is a result of some marketing tactics Apple employed for decades, and it only pushes me away from this brand.

thawaya3113 4y ago
Another part of it is that people have spent so much money buying into the Mac eco system and they find that its not the heavenly like existence they were led to believe it would be. So they need external validation for their choice, which they get by seeing everyone else switching to the Mac ecosystem as well.
kayodelycaon 4y ago
> result of some marketing tactics Apple employed for decades Or perhaps people really like macOS and their value system is different. I don't think a lot of developers are buying macs due to marketing. Also, Linux attracts the same fanatic behavior. If you like linux, you don't notice see how many people are pushing it. If you like macOS, you're more likely to notice the people pushing linux because you disagree with them. (And notice the macOS crowd less.)
- emptyfile 4y ago
  >I don't think a lot of developers are buying macs due to marketing. I've never seen a developer with a macbook in my country. The idea sounds absurd. Unless you need Final Cut or whatever, Apple is considered a status brand in many parts of the world.
  - hexo 4y ago
    In where I live there's a ton of devs using macs. The idea sounds absurd, too. Even more absurd when you realize they're mostly developing stuff that will ultimately run on Linux.
    - 4y ago

ramblerman 4y ago

Your comment is currently on top, so instead of laptop recommendations, we have yet another navel gazing meta discussion about HN and it's tendencies.

hinkley 4y ago
And hardly any mention of Mac in the next twenty top comments…
usui 4y ago
I've read the entire thread and took note of all the top-level responses that talked about Macs before the parent was posted versus the ones not talking about Macs. There are what, 4-5 mentions about getting a Mac out of dozens of non-Mac recommendations? Barely anyone gave those Mac comments attention before they were downvoted to the end anyway. Parent just seems to have an axe to grind and took the opportunity to hijack a thread about recommendations.

banal00 4y ago

These posts are annoying, IMO. Reviews and blogs posts about them are everywhere by like minded readers, and this is the discourse such posts bubble up every time here. Guys. I mean. Seriously. It’s a laptop. It’s not worth a request for comments every week.

kellogs_aran 4y ago
Hi. OP here. I did do some reading before posting. Here are some of the threads I had read before: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21302412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21302412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28861949 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28861949 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28216287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28216287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28023345 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28023345 None of the threads seemed to have a consensus e.g. some swear by the Dell XPS 13, others say the laptop has been a crap experience more or less. Others still prefer Lenovo Thinkpad variants, and even these have those who've had negative experiences. I was hoping for a winner of some sort or at least a list of recommended laptops that I can bookmark and spend time reading reviews of. Hope that makes sense and sorry for the inconvenience caused.
- pflanze 4y ago
  I'm happy for your post (I might be about to look into deciding for a laptop, too, and unlike general review sites the discussion here is centred on the use for a particular community we're part of), and honestly I find JabavuAdams' post pretty toxic (it does elicit more heated arguments). The annoying thing here in my view is this sub-thread, not your post.
  - kellogs_aran 4y ago
    Thanks stranger :)
- banal00 4y ago
  Look I’ve designed electronics for big corp; if you used the internet 99-2004, parts I designed probably switched your packets, or boosted signal. You’re trying to predict your future. No one here can help with that. You know your philosophical constraints. Hardware across vendors fails at largely the same rate due to normalized manufacture and sourcing patterns now. It all comes from the same few parts bins pretty much. The key specs are listed on each site. Reality is you have roughly the same risk of getting a lemon or finding a laundry list of nitpicks with any choice.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

FrozenSynapse 4y ago

Macbook Pro sucks, I cannot remember a laptop that is hotter (and throttles) than my current mac, and it's expensive

outcoldman 4y ago

Second this. If you want a laptop for development - get MacBook. I used to be a die-hard Windows guy about 10 years ago. After that switched to Linux on my Desktop and used it for a year. When I switched job they gave me MBP 2011 model, I hated it. The OS, but not the laptop. The new 2015 MBP were complete garbage, but I got used to macOS. The M1 laptops are the only laptops I would suggest to anybody. The battery life is so amazing, no overheating issues, I love it. My work also depends on Linux, I have my own company, that provides tools for monitoring Kubernetes, OpenShift and Docker. Only OpenShift is sketchy on arm64, everything else works great. https://github.com/lima-vm/lima https://github.com/lima-vm/lima is a great tool to run Linux VM. Also Docker for Mac and Rancher Desktop both work perfectly! But switching to Mac could be a challenge. I was always big fun of Thinkpad laptops, especially X1 Carbon. My wife uses it (she is Windows geek). But obviously this laptop is a laptop, not a computing machine. If you need computing power, just go to Costco and get yourself a gaming laptop with good video card (3060 would be in your price range). Read this https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLaptops/comments/srxtrx/gaming_laptops/ https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLaptops/comments/srxtrx/gamin... to see which laptop provides enough power to the graphics card. But of course those gaming laptops are more like desktops you can easily move. The power bricks are huge, and laptops are heavy. Another option to consider is to get a Desktop, you can buy used Workstations/Servers from companies like https://tekboost.com/ https://tekboost.com/ I got from them 2 x Nvidia Quadro M4000 8GB, Dual Xeon E5-2680V4 2.4GHz 14C, 256GB RAM for about 4k. For 2k I am sure you can find something that can fit your budget.

ecf 4y ago

> Reasonable response I scrolled down pretty far and didn’t see a single top-level comment anywhere close to what you’re describing about people blindly advocating Macs. Maybe you joined early, but comments like yours bringing up a problem that doesn’t exist is PART of the problem you’re complaining about.

jeffwask 4y ago

hatware 4y ago

I don't think they said they've had problems with Macs. They simply said their intention is not to use Windows or Mac OS. To me, that still leaves room to recommend a Mac. It's not a cult, it's the free market at work.

scelerat 4y ago

There are many angles to take when responding to a query, and when doing so one must consider, and occasionally, question the original premises. In public forums, one should assume both the questions and the answers to be for a wider audience. People are here for the alternate takes, the discussions, etc. Built-in to the interface of this site and many like it are tools to hide threads, in part or in entirety, and to downvote posts or threads deemed inappropriate or irrelevant. I guess my main counterpoint is that it's a bit vain to expect a diverse public forum to be one's own personal consultancy / counsel / etc.

fullstackchris 4y ago

> I mean, guys seriously. But we're serious. OP has created their own nonsensical boundaries with these constraints. Essentially the title is completely misleading apart from the 2K number. If OP is looking specifically for a linux-compatible machine they should have at least mentioned that in the title. It's no suprise at all that these types of answers are in this thread. I saw the title, came here to offer my thoughts about mac options, when I realize that actually "not allowed" by OP's request. It's click baity and almost feels like it was designed to get a rise out of the HN crowd.

jensensbutton 4y ago
Really? OP should have put every requirement in the title? You couldn't have just read the requirements then moved on? And because you didn't then OP deserves these nonsense responses? Get a grip.
NikolaNovak 4y ago
Love it! There's a meaningful title, and a set of perfectly common and reasonable requirements in an ordered, clear, explicit fashion that we all normally wish requester would follow. But because some jumped in with their own agenda, and feel stifled... now these are "nonsensical boundaries" :-> (Plus, I mean, if somebody wanted a mac... how much advice or options do they need ? Want a mac, get a mac. That part of equation is not exactly complicated, for better or for worse, is it? So let's not pretend this was anything but zealots wanting to chime in :) You do you, Hacker news :)

s3233323 4y ago

raffraffraff 4y ago

Nitpick: he said he didn't want to use MacOS, which doesn't necessarily rule out a MacBook. I hate MacOS but my personal laptop is a 2015 MacBook Pro running MX Linux, and I love it.

throwntoday 4y ago

It's natural for people to be perplexed when OP asks for the best option, is given the best option, and produces an irrational excuse against that option. What are people supposed to say besides, let's help you resolve that excuse?

jazzyjackson 4y ago

Eh, it's a public forum, I made a comment about Macs because I was curious why they were ruled out and a lot of conversation took place below my comment. We are not limited to talking about what OP wants us to talk about.