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The hunt for Nigerians who can change into cats
- sonicggg 5y agoNot any less ludicrous than any other religion. People believing in fairy tales is unfortunately the norm, not the exception. I even find it a bit condescending that this report comes from the BBC. Last time I checked, UK was still predominately religious as well.
- nkrisc 5y agoI find these kind of beliefs baffling, from anywhere in the world. It would be trivial to prove any of these work, and yet no one will. Surely they know it doesn’t actually work?
- dotancohen 5y ago> Surely they know it doesn’t actually work? Do you think that carrots make your eyesight better? Every culture has its misconceptions.
- the_af 5y agoYes, but some misconceptions are easier to disprove. And some misconceptions are genuine (in the sense that people genuinely believe them) and others are mere scams that even their alleged "believers" don't believe. I know at least one source for the misconception that carrots make your eyesight better: a WW2 lie to hide the fact of the existence of either radar or encryption breaking (I forget which). But someone who actually believed carrots make your eyesight better might try to test it for themselves. They may even keep on deluding themselves after doing an experiment (hey, the placebo effect is strong). What about someone who believes a juju amulet makes them impervious to stabbing. Would they be willing to try it? You offer to stab at their heart with all your might, and if they survive you give them money. Do they accept your offer? If they don't -- and they never do -- what is happening is that they suspect it doesn't really work. It reminds me of Jack London's story, "Lost Face": https://americanliterature.com/author/jack-london/short-story/lost-face https://americanliterature.com/author/jack-london/short-stor...
- not1ofU 5y agoIt was Radar as I understand
- nkrisc 5y agoI'm not saying I'm surprised they believe something that isn't true. We all do, myself included I'm certain. But some things would be trivial to test to see if it's true or not. I used to think carrots made your eyesight better, because that's what I was taught. I've since let go of that belief in light of new understanding and evidence. That is a claim that's harder to demonstrate, so it takes time to learn the truth of the matter. If was selling you a charm that made you bulletproof, it would be trivial to demonstrate. I'd wear it and you'd shoot me and I would be unharmed. But I'd wager money that no vendor selling such a charm would ever agree to such a simple demonstration of their wares.
- lazypenguin 5y agoBelieving it works is the whole experience. Most people never change socio-economic status and objectively nearly all startups fail yet here we are…
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- daemoens 5y ago"Of course juju works, he doesn't know what he is saying," said one trader who lingered with a scowl on his face. In his pocket was a black amulet, a small leather pouch containing supposedly magic charms, that he said was for protection. However, he was not interested in publicly demonstrating its powers, not even for $6,000. This man wouldn't prove his powers, even when he could only stand to gain from it. People act the exact same way everywhere when it comes to this type of belief.
- circlefavshape 5y agoHe'd stand to gain money, but from the sound of the article he'd lose social standing, and it takes a lot of money to offset something like that
- kazinator 5y agoThere is no "would" here; he couldn't prove anything and the money is safe. But let's say we live in a magical universe in which juju is real and yet someone is foolish enough to offer a lot of money for a proof. How would the prover lose social standing? He proved wrong that obnoxious nay-sayer. He'd be a juju hero, with stars in his eyes. Or maybe not. If juju were real, he would also have been trampled by a throng of others trying similarly to get the easy money. What I suspect is that there might be an element in the juju mythology which stipulates that any wielder of juju power who tries to prove juju to nonbelievers will die.
- circlefavshape 5y agoWhat I meant was he'd lose social standing by failing to prove something everyone in his social milieu thinks is obviously true. Big risk to take if you have any doubts at all, unless the potential payoff is v large Saw a documentary back in the 90s about similar stuff in India - a group of young "rationalists" going around debunking stuff. I wonder has it made any material difference in the last 30 years
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- _8j50 5y agoEven you don't know that. It is so difficult for many to accept that there are things they just cannot know or do not know that they don't know. It is also apparently very difficult for some people to consider things from someone else's perspective. I don't mean people who are of your belief system only but also the people in the subject of the story also think like you "surely those secular westerners don't really believe everything suddenly decided to exist all on its own and that people are really well-bred apes?" My point is, a little humility and willingness to understand others goes a long way.
- wonderwonder 5y agoits a little hard to be willing to understand people that murder and mutilate others in an attempt to gain material wealth.
- prometheus76 5y agoUnderstanding them doesn't mean condoning what they do, or even sympathizing with it. It's obviously so real to them that they are willing to sacrifice the life of another human being in order to improve their own future. I agree that's reprehensible, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to understand it.
- wonderwonder 5y agohonestly, why? Would you or I understanding lead to some way to stop them doing it? I doubt it. Sometimes actions are egregious enough to stand on their own with no need for rationalization or understanding. They are simply wrong. Most peoples time would be best served simply condemning their actions and seeking to understand things that can benefit the world. With that said, its not hard to comprehend why they do it. People are a product of their environment and if they are raised believing in certain truths that shape their world view, they tend to hold onto those and ignore things that fly in the face of them. They pass those same truths on to their offspring.
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- prometheus76 5y agoJust the thought of presenting some kind of physical evidence and that would somehow verify that it "works" or is "true" and would be accepted by everyone reveals your materialist worldview and is a key to understanding why these beliefs exist in pre-modern cultures around the world. The traditional world looks at the world as a hierarchy of being and a hierarchy of meaning. That's completely different than a materialist viewpoint of the world, but it explains why you see their beliefs as baffling and they see materialism as myopically ignorant.
- wonderwonder 5y agowhat does materialism have to do with facts? JUJU is not real. Also the article specifies that they are killing people for materialistic wants, they are trying to cast spells to get money.
- singlow 5y agoThis is a different use of the word materialism. You are reading it as the tendency to consider material possessions of high importance. The post is referring to a philosophical doctrine that nothing exists except for matter, its movements and its modifications. This is in contrast to belief systems that include things that are "supernatural" such as invisible beings, spirits, mystical energy forces, etc.
- triactual 5y agoPrevious comment means materialism as defined in philosophy. Not materialistic.
- prometheus76 5y agoI don't mean materialism as in a love of money or material goods. I mean materialism as in believing that truth claims must be verified with empirical, physical evidence. People in traditional societies do not think physicality or empiricism is the primary way of determining what is true. These people are showing you that fear, desperation, and hope lead them to believing a narrative that requires them to take another human being's life in the hope of gaining some physical advantage for themselves. They are literally sacrificing another human being for the hope of improving their own future. Is what they are doing based on some empirical evidence? No. Are the effects of what they believe still real? Yes. Their hierarchy of ontology has a coherence of its own and allows their society to function, and is a very ancient structure. The concept of the "evil eye" (which is tightly related to these African practices) is a very old mechanism for managing wealth (and good or bad fortune) in communities for thousands of years. To come along and say "well, this is nonsense. Let's convince them they're wrong by using physical evidence to prove it!" seems pretty hubristic.
- wonderwonder 5y agoThere is a whole industry that makes money from people believing that it works, an industry that has been entrenched for centuries. Its really not so different than modern western religions conceptually although much more violent. Western religion believes in miracles and the power of prayer and people donate hundreds of millions of dollars to buy churches or planes for pastors. How often do people in dire straights ask people to pray for them in the west? Its just something that becomes entrenched in a culture and is very difficult to remove.
- nkrisc 5y agoAnd I find the Western rituals and beliefs equally baffling.
- whatshisface 5y agoThis reveals that basic sanity (basing your beliefs on what you observe) is learned and not innate. Your own ancestors likely believed things like that, and your descendants could believe some future equivalent of QAnon.
- uhtred 5y agoI imagine it's kind of like believing in the more extreme conspiracy theories (the dems are a bunch of satanic baby eaters) - deep down I reckon almost all "believers" know it's not true, but life is boring and these people are poor and have not much to look forward to, so why not jazz it up by believing in magic.
- jerf 5y agoWestern society has a ton of these. The HN gestalt has a ton of these. But it's very hard to see your own equally silly beliefs.
- nkrisc 5y agoYes, there's many in Western society as well. I'd get downvoted if I mentioned them, however. I'm sure there's also beliefs I hold that would fit this description as well, though I try to be as open-minded as possible and willing to let go beliefs that don't stand up to scrutiny. I've definitely changed my mind on many things over the years as I learn more. Some beliefs are hard to disprove. But some are trivial. But if someone wants to sell me a charm that makes them stab-proof, I'm not paying until I see it in action. You don't need to be a scientist to think of an experiment that determines if it works.
- blast 5y agoThere's another possibility: perhaps it works, but in a way that is not trivial to prove. For example, maybe it depends on who's doing it. You or I would be unable to prove it, but we're not cat changers.
- b112 5y agoBut if there is an unbeliever witnessing these rituals, usually it means they will fail. This is a common theme with all such rites.
- daenz 5y ago>These beliefs are not just held by the uneducated, they exist even at the highest level of Nigeria's academia. Dr Olaleye Kayode, a senior lecturer in African Indigenous Religions at the University of Ibadan, told the BBC that money-making juju rituals - where human body parts mixed with charms makes money spew out of a pot - really work. Are the "uneducated" people basically screwed until the academics are willing to challenge this kind of magical thinking? How do you even go about starting that process?
- truthwhisperer 5y ago
- cinntaile 5y agoMaybe he doesn't even believe this, maybe he just doesn't want to alienate certain (groups of) people. People do the same thing with religion all over the world.
- daenz 5y agoThat possible, and why I said "willing to challenge." There isn't much effective difference between proclaiming something because you believe it, and proclaiming something because you're afraid of repercussions or alienating people. You could even argue that the latter is worse. It's not enough if they secretly believe it, they also need to be willing to challenge it publicly.
- adfgadfgaery 5y agoThe human capacity for self-deception amazes me. The people in the market claim to believe juju works. This is not a lie; they put up their own money to buy charms. But at some level they know it doesn't work, since they know the prize will go unclaimed. They can switch between these two beliefs to keep from confronting the inconsistency of their worldview.
- returnofzyx 5y agoIt's not really self deception. It's more of faith with a whole lot of ignorance. Ignorance of the old ways. How to go about it. So they get easily scammed by fake priests. Most african indigenous spiritual practices have been bastardized by the influx of islam and christianity. Most people believe in the old gods and are right to do so; but generational knowledge transfer is dwindling because of societal pressure. It's not really fashionable to be a traditionalist in Nigeria.
- adfgadfgaery 5y ago
- IceMetalPunk 5y ago"Most people believe in the old gods and are right to do so." I would strongly disagree, but then again, you would follow that by disagreeing with my disagreement :) As long as everything is allowed to be subjective opinion, anything goes. And so I ask: what objective evidence is there that it is "right" to believe in the "old gods"? What makes the old traditions more accurate than the new ones? What evidence is there that any of them work, beyond stories and anecdotes at best?
- Dylan16807 5y agoCould the old practices do any of this cool stuff either? Did they claim to?
- tenebrisalietum 5y agoContext is king. It's likely less about structured/analyzed beliefs and more likely about expected/allowed behavior in situation A versus expected/allowed behavior in situation B. For instance, inside church or around people from church, context A exists and behavior capabilities set A is selected, and when at a strip club, a different behavior capability set is selected. Where there is no context leakage, e.g. you don't hang out with the same people at the church that you do at the strip club, there may never be opportunities for the non-self-relfective to change.
- inasmuch 5y agoThis is the kind of thing (Korean fan death is another) that sends me into a momentary spiral as I rack my brain for any scientifically indefensible convictions I may hold myself. Of course I don't come up with anything—that's the whole issue—save for the fact that I, out of sheer ignorance and blind faith in what I've been told by various authorities (and, to a much lesser degree, by what I've observed personally), generally believe in peer-reviewed, effectively canonized science. It's easy to point to western religions as examples of this kind of thing, but I think there are plenty of other unverifiable (or even effectively disproven) but deeply felt beliefs that proliferate among both the right and the left, some of which are deeply dangerous and only gaining momentum.
- wlesieutre 5y ago"Don't swim for 30 minutes after eating, you'll get cramps and drown" is one I've heard in the US from multiple people
- jaggederest 5y ago"Hydration", or "8 glasses of water a day" is another one. Your kidneys work, if you aren't thirsty (barring certain medical conditions) you don't need to drink water. There's no such thing as "dehydration without being thirsty" on a routine basis. You'll develop a pretty powerful thirst at 2% water depletion, and for most healthy adults you need to see 4% or more for negative effects.
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- postthenf0gret 5y ago
- a4isms 5y agoAnecdote: I lived in Ibadan, Nigeria around 1970 or so. I recall the newspapers had serials, some were comics they bought from England, e.g. Garth, and some were a kind of photobook thing where models would stage scenes from a story and captions would be added just like a comic. There would also be extremely crude effects drawn in by hand. I remember that one such serial involved were-leopards, and it made sense to me that while Europeans had stories about humans who transformed into wolves, Africans would have stories about humans that transformed into big cats.
- noasaservice 5y agoI have a good friend who grew up in Northern Canada. He's Inuit, and told a few stories of his tribe to me. One such story sounds eerily similar to these stories. One such story was a person who, by indirect account, said that he could transform into a wolf at night. He was threatening the community with that. The elder knew how to do so as well, but chose not to until this threat came. The 2nd night after this intruder showed up, the elder transformed. During that night, a ferocious fight was heard. Next morning, the elder said that the deed was done, and the intruder who threatened the tribe was dead. The people searched the area, and found a man mauled to death by a wolf.
- lostgame 5y agoThe cynic in me immediately wants to dismiss this story - but I do have to say that’s a pretty damn cool story, even if it’s not true. It makes me wonder, for sure; and that’s cool enough in and of itself for me.
- kazinator 5y agoThe story is entirely plausible. The man was mauled by an ordinary wolf by coincidence; everything else was just bullshit talk. Long ago, some man who had some dispute with a village and was mauled by a wolf, and the story was invented and embellished from there as it was handed down.
- mc32 5y agoReminds me of the Beast of Gevaudan.
- JPLeRouzic 5y agoOr "Darker Than You Think" by Jack Williamson who was inspired by Jack Parson, the US rocket scientist who was also an occultist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darker_Than_You_Think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darker_Than_You_Think
- Dylan16807 5y agoAm I missing something, or is the only similarity "man turns into animal"? Because there's absolutely nothing eerie about that single element showing up in multiple places.
- seantron619 5y agoIsnt the more modern version of this the new age movement where people think they can just "manifest" success just by meditating on it? Books(The Secret) and speakers talk about asking the universe for something and "manifesting" that it will happen and then not understanding why they're stuck living in an apartment with 3 people at 40 years old.
- bmj 5y agoNo. I think the new age movement generally keeps the supernatural at a safe distance, or at least frames the discussion in very general terms. Further, I think much of the manifestation of success via meditation isn't really supernatural at all, but rather just another life hack. The sort of spirituality described in the article has very specific ideas about the supernatural world, and the entities that reside in it. There is also an understanding of the uncontrolled, dangerous nature of the entities.
- boomboomsubban 5y agoIt's really easy to imagine a Nigerian person saying their belief is grounded in the reality of people they know claiming to have seen it, and that the charms are more of a lifehack than anything supernatural.
- anm89 5y agoThis is absolutely untrue. Just a few obvious examples: shakras, crystals, anything "quantum", "vibrations", or harnessing "energy", planet alignment mechanically effecting their lives. I know many new age spiritualists and have had in depth conversations with them regarding what they believe and I can tell you, at least those people believe a staggering amount of supernatural things and they will tell you this directly usually. As in if you asked them if they believe in the supernatural, they will give you an emphatic yes. People in this thread are incredulous that the "educated" believe in this stuff, and yet most of these spiritualists are college educated and then the apologists who say "it isn't really supernatural" are college educated as well. I personally take these people about as seriously as if someone told me they could make money manifest in a pot. It's indefensible to have received the amount of education these people have received and have access to the unlimited knowledge in our current society and to believe what amounts to kids' fairy stories.
- kelvin0 5y agoThis demonstrates to me the 'power' of the mind, similar to the placebo effect? If a belief is objectively 'true' or not is irrelevant, what the mind believes and is able to immerse itself into can manifest some unexplained results. Of course, I'm not advocating any superstitions, but simply it seems that powerful beliefs can yield astonishing results sometimes (good or bad).
- codezero 5y agoI think it speaks more to the social pressures of cultures. When a practice is embedded in the social expectations of a culture, it becomes very hard to remove or to dismiss without breaking social ties or generational ties. Breaking those ties can leave people without support, finances, or even shelter, so it's often taboo to even try.
- IceMetalPunk 5y agoThe placebo effect has control over a person's own perceptions and, to a much lesser degree, their own health. It can make them feel happier or less pain, it can even bolster the immune system by reducing stress, but it won't cure cancer. It also will not manifest money, or turn you into a cat or a banana, or do anything supernatural. It cannot manifest anything beyond a person's own perceptions and mild health benefits. Whether something is true or not is absolutely relevant. To quote Tim Minchin's brilliant poem "Storm": is truth "so loose-weave of a morn / When deciding to leave your flat by the door / Or the open window on the second floor?"
- IceMetalPunk 5y agoI feel like many Western folks would laugh or gasp at this, while at the same time, we (especially in the US) are inundated with equally superstitious BS from a young age. Christians will tell you their beliefs are about love and therefore are harmless, but the Bible they claim is both inerrant and an example of the purest love actively glorifies, and even explicitly commands, murder in multiple places. And then there's the more subtle dangers of teaching people this nonsense: recent studies have shown that children brought up religiously are less likely to be able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality (as tested by comparing mundane stories with stories of wizards, for instance, and asking which one is probably real). And more egregiously, telling children they will go to paradise when they die is disgusting. I have a personal anecdote on the matter. My dad is a fundamentalist Christian, a young-Earth creationist who truly believes that the primary-school concept of Conservation of Mass disproves all the science showing the age of the Earth (because he has no idea how radiometric dating works, but is convinced he understands it better than physicists and chemists). Anyway, my brother-in-law let him start taking my niece and nephew to church. After a few weeks of church, My niece, who was then 8, was talking to me about something and then said, with a smile mind you, "Oh, well, it'll be good when I die." I was like, "What? Don't say things like that!" "Why?" she asked. "Because everyone would be very sad if you died." "But why?" she asked again. "They should be happy, because I'll be in heaven with God!" She grinned, and I was disgusted and terrified. I didn't know how to convince her that death was bad without directly contradicting her parent's decision to bring her to church. Religion, simply by the promise of an afterlife, makes young children happy about dying. That alone should be enough for people to chuck it in the bin, and yet, it's not. (By the way, this is the same reason so many religions with paradisiacal afterlife promises almost always have to outline that suicide is a sin. Because when you convince people that their death will be far better than their life could possibly be, of course they'll want to get there as soon as possible! But then you'd have no followers left alive, so you have to tell them "wait, no, but you can't do that because, um, then you won't get that paradise after all!") Theistic religions, and honestly any religion with any sort of afterlife, are fundamentally sick. And expanding that to all religions with beliefs in the supernatural, they are all BS and dangerous and have no place in a modern world built upon the efforts and successes of rational and scientific considerations.
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- encryptluks2 5y agoA lot of Nigerians must have superpowers cause I get emails almost daily from princes saying they can help me get rich real quick.
- vt85 5y ago
- gurjeet 5y agoIf the protagonist of this story, Gbenga Adewoyin, is here, or if someone can put me in touch with him, I am willing to back his efforts with my money. This is so that he can raise the stakes, and attract more attention to the social evils, and the drag those evils create on the people's lives and on the economy. Think of it like Randy's Paranormal challenge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_...
- slim 5y agothis seems to be his twitter https://twitter.com/gbengadewoyin https://twitter.com/gbengadewoyin
- knighthack 5y agoFor anyone interested, you should look into George Knapp's Hunt for the Skinwalker. It ties in with the were-mythos.
- tsol 5y agoWhy are the articles about Africa that are posted on HN always about how strange and different they supposedly are? This isn't even tech related. Rather than focus on their technology industry, what gets posted is some strange folk belief of the poor-- as if people in the USA don't also have superstitions like black cats are unlucky. These conversations seem to turn into a self congratulatory series of people talking about how they would never believe anything so illogical, in fact they don't even understand how you could believe anything so illogical. Though the intention is to place themselves as the more intelligent ones, this just makes me think people here are naive that they don't understand they've went through a lifetime of training to think that way and still have weird superstitions(ie romantic love is special as opposed to evolutions way of tricking you into thinking having sex is meaningful)