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You don't ever own an electric vehicle

• AceJohnny2 5y ago
  In the 2006 sci-fi novel Rainbows End by Vernor Vinge, a back-from-the-almost-dead engineer character has a temper tantrum when they discover all the electronics, up to and including the cars outside, have a "No User Serviceable Parts Inside" cover over everything. The book was prescient in many ways.
• SubiculumCode 5y ago
  I've heard that electric cars are generally much more reliable than combustion engines: Much fewer parts that gain wear and tear. Have I been misled?
• exabrial 5y ago
  Which is why I won't be buying one either until this changes. Manufacturers are choosing post-sale control instead of prioritizing clean air.
  • amelius 5y ago
    Judging from how this evolved for SmartTVs, you won't be able to buy a car anytime starting in the near future.
    • zardo 5y ago
      Judging from SmartTVs, if you buy a car with a Samsung radio you won't be able to change the volume without reinstalling the audio drivers five times a week.
• IYasha 5y ago
  But how about building one yourself? A good old "dumb" electric-motor-powered car? There was a similar but more general thread on it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30144101 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30144101
  • soared 5y ago
    Related, a guy tried to build a toaster from scratch: https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmodo.com/one-mans-nearly-impossible-quest-to-make-a-toaster-from-5794368/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/gizmodo.com/one-mans-nearly-imp... Ended up writing a book about it and probably made a whole lot of money.
    • jwilk 5y ago
      Non-AMP link: https://gizmodo.com/one-mans-nearly-impossible-quest-to-make-a-toaster-from-5794368 https://gizmodo.com/one-mans-nearly-impossible-quest-to-make...
• natch 5y ago
  Not to miss the point here, but as an aside, it seems fairly likely that the option of completely ending sales to consumers in some current markets is on the table at Tesla once actual working (non-beta) full self driving exists.
• kube-system 5y ago
  > Until the late 1980s, a cable on the engine throttle connected directly to the accelerator pedal, giving drivers total control of their engine speed and power. Throttle problems were quick, easy to diagnose, and, more importantly, fixed at home without paying exorbitant mechanic prices. > Cars now use an ETC (electronic throttle control) managed by a computer, as is just about everything else on engines these days. Naturally, this makes vehicles more difficult to repair, not to mention the glaring “right to repair” issue growing by the day when everything runs on a chip. It isn't more difficult because anyone is conspiring against you. Maybe it's more difficult because electricity is invisible, the techniques require new knowledge, or you're not familiar with it. Go get some CAN bus debugging equipment, plug it into your high-speed CAN bus, move the accelerator pedal, and you'll see the CAN messages. Although, there's usually no debugging necessary for your accelerator pedal, because you no longer need to lubricate your accelerator cable; bits don't require lubrication. From an engineering perspective, it is very convenient (and reliable) to have everything in the car just sit on a communication bus and write software to do the logic, rather than have dedicated wires or mechanical connections.
  • jesterpm 5y ago
    But it's not really that straight forward. You push the pedal, the computer runs an algorithm, and then throttle body moves. The algorithm is the part that you can't troubleshoot, mitigate, or fix. I recently started driving a drive-by-wire vehicle. A while ago I had an issue where the engine dropped to a near-idle (on the freeway) and the pedal was effectively non-operative. The diagnostics said the computer wasn't getting the expected results from moving the throttle body, so it went into some kind of safe mode. Now, there are plenty of ways that drive-by-cable could fail, but in this case I was slightly resentful because I could have mitigated the computer's loss of senses with my own.
    • kube-system 5y ago
      The problem there is that the software is proprietary, not that it has an electronic throttle pedal.
• speedgoose 5y ago
  I own an eight years old electric vehicle. It’s not connected to the internet anymore, and it is fine. The maintenance is done by professionals. Sometimes they do software updates. I also own a new electric vehicle connected to the internet that updates itself once in a while. I know various non-official garages in my area that can fix it when it’s out of warranty. I guess if I remove the modem, it will simply stop updating automatically, and I will lose a few features like the smartphone app, like my other car.
  • 0ldskool 5y ago
    Can you say which vehicle you drive? electric vehicles platforms are very different from each other
    • speedgoose 5y ago
      Sure. The old one is a first gen BMW i3. But some coworkers, friends, and family have cars from the same time, Renault Zoé, Nissan Leaf, Volkswagen egolf, or Mitsubishi I-miev and it’s similar. Most of these are not connected. The new one is a Tesla model y.
• markb139 5y ago
  Recently had water ingress on an Audi hybrid (thankfully covered by warranty). It turned out, after many calls, there is one service centre that could do the work in Scotland. It’s 250 miles away. It would seem even the official channels are struggling to fix the vehicles. Any young people looking for a career you won’t go far wrong training up to fix EV’s
• fuzzieozzie 5y ago
  I have driven (dare I say owned) a Chevy Bolt for over 4 years. I have changed the tires and added windshield fluid. (they replaced the battery on recall - I had no problems). Updates were not necessary. If you want to understand and be able to modify everything about your transportation then ride a bicycle (not electric of course!)
  • nosianu 5y ago
    This is less about the user but about 3rd party "out of network" repair shops. The manufacturer's control over everything increases. It used to be that you could take your device to anywhere, now it's all about "in-network". It's a general trend. Personally, I think the system was much more "capitalistic" and a lot less limiting when you just needed general tools and knowledge to repair stuff in an entire category (cars, electrical household machines, etc.). I'd really like to see where this is going to end up a hundred years from now. I don't think all the long-term implications of this trend are really clear at this point yet. A more complex society may have to live with less freedom for individuals and compensate elsewhere. Even if at least some of current complexity is purposefully made for the purpose to create artificial restrictions, there may also be benefits that I'm unable to see from my low vantage point. Maybe in the future it offers manufacturers options to create really useful value on top of such restrictions, I don't know yet.
  • oceanplexian 5y ago
    I had a Bolt (Have since sold it) but you could literally pull the OnStar fuse and turn it into a dumb car in about 2 minutes. Solved that problem.
  • jacquesm 5y ago
    Modern bikes are surprisingly hard to work on. More and more complex systems such as hydraulic disc brakes, electronically actuated gear changers and so on. Bike mechanics - especially for e-bikes - routinely use computers for diagnostic purposes. A typical e-bike has 5 to 10 CPUs in it.
    • vanilla_nut 5y ago
• parentheses 5y ago
  Would you pay X% more to be able to repair Y? Most consumers will buy the cheaper Y if it provides the same day-to-day value as the more expensive but repairable Y. Right to repair is a much greater proportion of pining for the "good ol' days" than anything. When the complexity and manufacturing maturity were not that high, increasing complexity usually meant reducing reliability. The idea that products can deliver greater sophistication, comfort and efficiency without adding complexity is preposterous. At some point the complexity becomes so high that it's not safe for a non-expert to work on it. Imagine a customer bricking a $30,000 car because they wanted to repair it. Who would they blame? Themselves? "Well they shouldn't have made it this way!"
• cafed00d 5y ago
  Sounds like what we're really saying is "You don't ever own a software-as-a-service controlled vehicle". If all cars ran on software updates then these complaints apply to combustion engine vehicles too.
• foreigner 5y ago
  Sounds great. I hate having to own a car.
• monkaiju 5y ago
  I feel like I own my 2014 Nissan Leaf, and im gonna try to keep it running forever
• cosmiccatnap 5y ago
• cagr 5y ago
  Sounds like it was written by Putin
• coding123 5y ago
  Where I live people buy cars that were made in the 70s and 80s and then change out the engine, cut things up and change them. Lots of welders here too. I can definitely see in my future doing this and putting 40-50Kwh and some high torque motors on the wheels. There are apparently some books on amazon for this shit too.
  • zodzedzi 5y ago
    What are some example such books?
    • coding123 5y ago
      I only saw this one: https://www.amazon.com/Build-Your-Electric-Vehicle-Third/dp/0071770569/ref=sr_1_3?crid=1TX2TY730DJZI&keywords=electric+vehicle+build+your+own&qid=1647122486&sprefix=electric+vehicle+build+y%2Caps%2C1076&sr=8-3 https://www.amazon.com/Build-Your-Electric-Vehicle-Third/dp/...
• outworlder 5y ago
  > What happens when your fancy electric vehicle stops getting software updates Who cares? Cars don't normally get updates after they leave the factory, unless you take them to a dealership - usually because there's a recall. Tesla is changing this, and expect other companies to follow suit. But there's really zero reason why this is going to be confined to electric vehicles. The engine literally makes no difference. It was historically easier on EVs because, given that the engine is not always rotating, belts were not feasible. So they had electric steering (and other things like electric climate control). Regenerative breaking meant that you had to delegate braking action to the computer too. However, ICE vehicles already use an ECU, so engine is already software based. Then, we have ABS and lane assist (and adaptive cruise control, etc) which means that some computer can control the throttle, brakes and steering too. Other features like infotainment are completely orthogonal to the drive train. > For now, we’ll continue to buy cars that are increasingly more difficult and costly to repair Seems like the author hasn't bought an ICE vehicle recently. They are all more difficult to repair. Even things like replacing the infotainment system are no longer feasible since it's all integrated. This article sounds like FUD against EVs.
  • randyrand 5y ago
    > Who cares? Anyone that realizes these cars are a security nightmare? Wifi and cellular on a car! Brilliant! The fact that ransomware hasn't yet hit cars is as shocking as it is inevitable. Russia literally disabled all ViaSat phones before invading. Telsas literally download firmware at will when a centralized server tells them to! Edit: actually, looks like the attacks are already underway! https://fortune.com/2021/03/19/russian-pleads-guilty-ransomware-plot-against-tesla/ https://fortune.com/2021/03/19/russian-pleads-guilty-ransomw...
    • gjs278 5y ago
    • liketochill 5y ago
      Clearly It is impossible to secure anything, there will always be some 0 day, DoS, etc, so air gapping is the answer and then you only have to worry about attackers that are physically present.
• pards 5y ago
  I misplaced the key/fob to 2018 Toyota Rav4 hybrid and it can only be replaced at the dealership .. for $850 CAD. It's an especially cruel form of vendor lock-in and has caused me to reevaluate the selection criteria for the next vehicle I purchase. I want the simplest EV possible.
• DonnyV 5y ago
  Ugh...as usual a combination of Capitalism and lack of proper regulation is turning car ownership into permanent car renting.
• deleted 5y ago
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• bitwize 5y ago
  Suck it up. We are entering the own-nothing-be-happy era of human history, and there's not a God-damn thing you can do about it because market forces are prevailing against you. An example is computing. General purpose computing for the masses is moribund. The fundamental reason has little to do with the greed of OEMs (though that is very much a thing). It has a lot to do with the fact that end users don't want to be sysadmins. So they delegate the maintenance of their machine to the vendor. To keep costs down and the experience smooth, those vendors have an interest in restricting what can be run on their machines, and monitoring the machines' use to find problems (and run a side business selling that info to advertisers... the machines themselves are so low-margin, if not negative-margin that residual income for their use is a MUST to satisfy shareholders). And so it's becoming the same for cars. People these days don't want to be responsible for a cars' maintenance, they just want to pay a sum for a few years' use of the car. Accepting that the vendor will take care of maintenance, as well as whatever restrictions the vendor chooses to implement, is still a win for the consumer. Therefore this model will dominate in the marketplace, and the option of owning your car outright will be like the option of owning a non-smart TV: not worth the money for manufacturers.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• stutsmansoft 5y ago
  Kinda clickbaity. I sure own my Porsche EV. I don't have the daily thrills/hassles of the constant OTA updates, because they don't do them except for the radio. Not concerned about repairability when the designs are so simple there's almost nothing to break...plus it has a good warranty.
• mikestew 5y ago
  Man, what a crap article. I'd even go as far as to use the word "clickbait" because of the unnecessary use of the word "electric", because little of the article is specific to electric vehicles. But let's dig into a few highlights... Cars now use an ETC (electronic throttle control) managed by a computer, as is just about everything else on engines these days. Naturally, this makes vehicles more difficult to repair... Citation needed. Might be more expensive, but swapping out the broken module the OBD reader told you to swap is probably not going to be that hard. The actual module is probably under the dash near the pedal, but that's probably the extent of the difficulty. And that's assuming that you ever need to replace it. You'll probably sell the car first. Throttle cables, OTOH... As technology in our cars continues to advance, repairability and maintenance are becoming a real issue. Just ask any old-school mechanic No, you go ask any old-school mechanic, because this old-school mechanic who quit professionally turning wrenches in the '90s sez "hurray!" to our electronically-controlled low-maintenance overlords. Because I'd rather not spend another evening replacing a set of ignition points so that I can get to work in the morning. We drive our vehicles until the wheels fall off, but for those that lease a vehicle for three years, my guess is you're not doing jack maintenance-wise before the lease is up (you will have to change oil on an ICE). What happens when your fancy electric vehicle stops getting software updates. Ooooooh, scary question! It'll be just like TFA's phone example: hackers will hack my car!!11! No, wait...I know the answer to this one because our Nissan Leaf quit getting updates when the 3G was shut off, and I've not taken it back to the dealer in several years. And the answer is...nothing happens. I mean, what's the assumed answer to what the author must think to be a rhetorical question?
  • hoosieree 5y ago
    I'm more worried about pressing the accelerator and getting an error message pop-up like "it looks like you're using an ad blocker..."
    • fhood 5y ago
      That can theoretically already happen, has nothing to do with whether a car is electric, and we already deal with something kind of similar known as "limp home mode"
• hadlock 5y ago
  Electric repower of classic cars is a thing. VW Beetles and Mustangs are popular targets. I've also seen everything from a 2CV to a Jaguar MK IV. It's just a charger, an inverter, battery, and drive unit (motor). Apparently the electric brake assist off the prius is plug and play due to how failover mode works when disconnected from a main computer. I suspect a lot of older cars will end up repowered by an electric motor simply because people love the car, not the engine, nor the endless tinkering to keep it running acceptably, and all the oil and grease involved.
  • zamalek 5y ago
    Yeah, I'm not buying the broad premise of this article given that salvage parts from the worst offender (Tesla) are routinely used for the conversions you mentioned.
• aaron_m04 5y ago
  I know I am playing Devil's Advocate here, but what about the guy who was mining crypto on his Tesla? That was definitely not a Tesla-approved change.
• seanp2k2 5y ago
  > In 2020, someone bought a used Tesla advertised with autopilot and full self-driving features, which at the time cost $8,000 for the previous owner to unlock and enjoy. Unfortunately, the new owner didn’t get those features, as Tesla disabled them once it changed hands. Note that this is not exclusive to cars. Presonus did this to me when I purchased a StudioLive rack mixer. The previous owner had access to the “free” DSP programs it has built-in to do various effects like compression in the device itself. When he switched the registration to me, those were disabled and I’d have to pay to unlock them, because as Presonus said, they were only free as a promo offer to the initial purchaser and non-transferable, despite other parts of the licensed software being transferable. To add insult, that pack of DSP plugins that run in this thing are the ONLY available plugins, so it’s not like I can get some open-source or third-party ones. I dislike them so much after this whole interaction that I won’t ever buy their stuff again and will repeat this story to anyone who will listen. I didn’t pay for the plug-in pack a second time, because I refuse to give them more money. I just got an external compressor instead. Anyway, total BS IMO for manufacturers to disable functionality that the hardware had when new when it changes hands.
• Bud 5y ago
  This guy's argument does not really seem to have any legitimate link to electric vehicles in particular, and as such, he should really back off of trying to blame EVs for this. It makes his overall point about repairability much weaker. As he himself acknowledges in the article, this is really a problem that's emerging more and more in all modern vehicles.
• dmix 5y ago
  There was a snippy saying from a book I read that stuck in my head: If it flies, fucks, or floats: rent it. This was in a story about never buying a boat because it's a giant money pit for maintenance. I'd imagine it would include cars if that was possible, which is finally becoming a reality. I believe renting should be the default and ownership is the alternative for people who need it (like pickup trucks for work and maybe commuters).
  • AnimalMuppet 5y ago
    My wife is an asset, not a liability or an expense. For the rest, it depends on how much you're going to use it. A boat or a plane (or an RV), you're likely to use less than you project you will at the time you're thinking of buying one, so it's easy to get suckered into buying something that you won't use enough to justify owning. But you probably know fairly accurately how much you use a car, unless you just made a significant lifestyle change. And I suspect that most people who own cars use them much more heavily than you suspect when you say that renting should be the default.
• Animats 5y ago
  Has nothing to do with the propulsion system being electric. Has everything to do with auto manufacturers wanting too much control. The CEO of Stellantis, which owns what's left of Chrysler and Fiat, has said that they intend to get their margins up to tech-company levels ("double digit margins") by adding software features with ongoing charges.[1] [1] https://www.stellantis.com/en/investors/events/strategic-plan https://www.stellantis.com/en/investors/events/strategic-pla...
• felurx 5y ago
  This article annoys me quite a bit. I don't even disagree with the author about how locking features behind paywalls, making repairs harder etc is bad. But that is in no way an EV problem, it is a shitty companies / missing legislation problem. (I suppose EVs can, in some limited ways, be harder to repair than combustion cars, but that's like 10% of the point of the article maximum.)
• AngeloAnolin 5y ago
  One overlooked aspect of vehicle ownership is that these manufacturers / dealerships have adopted a mindset similar to subscription based models where the predictability of finances is well established. At some point, I think there will be a greater demand for right-to-repair form of ownership where you can fix (by yourself) or bring your vehicle to another company which will have some knowledge in how to resolve your vehicle's issue. Author makes a nice point though about future of EVs where convenience of renting or on demand lease of vehicles become the norm.
• llsf 5y ago
  It is true to any new car, there is more electronic and more software than before. Maybe new EV are embracing it even more. But this seems the trend: more electronic, more software, less cables/gears. Yes, it is more complex to repair, and requires more skills. Yes, some features can be disable remotely, like Apple could do on your phone, Amazon on your Alexa, Google on your Nest, etc. "Software eating the world" maybe has some drawbacks (more difficult to repair, remote disable, etc) but is not specific to EV.
• giantg2 5y ago
  I've said it before... give me a basic work truck that's an EV. No exorbitant prices, no intrusive tech, no marketing or updates BS.
• iancmceachern 5y ago
  Any vehicle that relies on a touchscreen for essential functions falls under this category. Like fans in a computer, it's always the first, and most often, thing to fail.
  • gkop 5y ago
    Huh. I'm as big a touchscreen hater as anyone, but they're solid state, unlike the knobs and buttons they replace (and also unlike computer fans). Why do they fail so early and often?
    • saalweachter 5y ago
      It's also a lot harder to drop the touchscreen in your car than the one in your pocket.
    • iancmceachern 5y ago
      Solid state does not necessarily mean more durable or reliable. Think of a thin stem wine glass, it's solid state but wouldn't last long in a car. Then you could have something like vise grip pliers or a crescent wrench and that would last 100 years or more in a car and even last for millions and millions of use cycles. Disclaimer: I'm an idiot, these are my random thoughts on the subject, I'm not an expert in lcd reliability, but have designed many products with LCD in them, or that were LCD displays themselves. LCDs are solid state, but are still incredibly complex pieces of engineering. Early on in Teslas life there is a famous story about them using consumer grade (not automotive) in their cars because the latter simply wasn't available. This highlights an important difference between automotive applications and others. Automotive component specs are more stringent on vibration and thermL requirements than say consumer products or medical devices. It gets really hot inside the cabin of a car, also really cold. This thermal cycling, and vibration is hell on things that are sensitive to thermal shock like things made of composted of many different materials (glass, plastic, epoxy, clear conductive magic stuff, etc) which is exactly what a LCD screen is. On the other hand, buttons are dead simple. Many are 3 or 4 parts, all super reliable and with great quality control. Another way to think about it, is a plastic piece with two copper contacts, a spring (often molded into one of the plastic parts directly), and a plastic housing more complex or less reliable than the amazing complex beast that is a LCD display.
• gutino 5y ago
  It is not only EVEs also modern ICE too, worst for you, its like that with almost every technology as it gets more advance. Or do you not want to get it better? Do you acknoledge the advantage of an acelerator controled by a ICU?
• cush 5y ago
  So the line of logic here is EVs are hard to repair, therefore you don’t own your EV? They could have titled this clickbait article “The demand for EV mechanics is very high”. The jump from hard to repair to you don’t own your vehicle is asinine. By this logic, I don’t own my TV, MacBook, Car door opener, Bluetooth headphones, or my Hot Pockets either. Hot Pockets are nearly impossible to put back together once opened.
• vzaliva 5y ago
  Most of this applies to sufficiently modern gas vehicle. Even my motorcycle has now drive-by-wire throttle, computer-controlled fuel injection, and computer controlled brakes in addition to throttle control and other stuff. We will need to get used to the fact that many modern devices we use in everyday life are very sophisticaed and beyond "fix it yourself". Even your home fridge is likely to have a computer and bluetooth.
  • civilized 5y ago
    Everything new is cancerous in this exact same way. Every piece of software, every piece of hardware, every appliance. EVs just happened to scale up production at the same moment that everything was becoming so thoroughly diseased. Our evil overlords want to make every tool, every convenience, every means of existence require a wifi connection, a smartphone, a web browser, a username and password, and -- most importantly -- a hefty, relentlessly increasing monthly fee. If they ever get neural implants into us, you'll pay $10 a month to shit.
    • poink 5y ago
      My 30+ year appliance repair guy quit last year because he said everything is planned obsolete and you can't get a good appliance at any price. Pay extra for Speed Queen or whatever if you want, but when it inevitably breaks you're looking for donor parts on eBay as if it were an old Android phone.
      • throwaway09223 5y ago
        Even speed queen is pushing / has switched to electronic controls. The big mechanical selector knobs are still there, but they're interacting with a PCB underneath.
    • omegalulw 5y ago
      You are saying two very different things here. The stuff that we make today is built on millennia of knowledge - obviously it won't be trivial to understand or fix. That's not a problem - unless you want to force everyone back to the stone age. Your second point is valid, a lot of stuff is shipped with stuff that isn't useful for end consumer or even anti consumer outright. The solution to this is to push for right to repair laws, patent reform, open source, etc and not decry modern technology altogether.
• chmod600 5y ago
  If it's more complicated than a hammer, you don't own it. That's modern society.
• alfor 5y ago
  Electronic ate the mechanicals things. Software is eating the electronic things and mechanical things remaining. Now it’s AI and the connected things doing it again. Also cars are cheaper, more efficient, more reliable use less materials, are way safer, etc. But yes I wonder what will happen in 20 years with those high tech vehicle, but imagine the tech we will have in 20 years. Every car will be electric, self driving and cheap. Solar energy will be cheap and everywhere.
• toraway1234 5y ago
• DennisP 5y ago
  Aptera appears to be committed to right-to-repair. https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/19/a-recent-aptera-video-gives-us-a-peek-at-its-repairable-guts/ https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/19/a-recent-aptera-video-g... https://aptera.us/giving-you-the-right-to-repair/ https://aptera.us/giving-you-the-right-to-repair/
• pabs3 5y ago
  Same goes for pretty much any modern computing device.
• oxplot 5y ago
  Complexity is going to inevitably make everything harder to repair as it becomes ever so involved to learn and understand how things work. However, it need not be harder than it should be if manufacturers are not hostile towards 3rd part repair. That’s job of the government to mandate it. Most manufacturers want control over their processes to ensure, in the least, the repair is done right and it won’t end up as bad press and reputation damage due to someone else’s screw ups. EVs are in their infancy. So don’t expect perfection just yet. Give it a few decades and regulation will catch up.
• minroot 5y ago
  Solution is easy, buy car that runs on open-source software. How can this be too hard?
• Blackstrat 5y ago
  Big Tech, eg. Microsoft, took everything to the "cloud" and charges a subscription fee. Google, et. al., scans your mail and docs, Apple the various things uploaded to the cloud. Ever had your own music, ripped from your own CDs, removed from your IPhone following an update? Yep, I have. Electric cars are the ultimate virtual signaling status symbol. The younger one is, the more conditioned to the Big Tech business model, e.g., in game purchases, always on phones, Instagram, blah, blah. Now the US is likely to follow China down the "social credit score" path. The inflation and high gas prices are intended to accelerate the changeover. Fundamentally, the younger one is, the more conditioned they are to surrender their freedoms to the oligarchs and bureaucrats. One additional benefit of EVs to the bureaucrats is they limit the populace's mobility, i.e., the travel range is much shorter and recharges take much longer than filling up with gas. I drive an old car devoid of any electronic gadgetry and very repairable.
• charles_f 5y ago
  This is not an ev problem. Somehow vehicle connectivity came somewhat at the same time as electrification, and so, people see causation where it's just correlation; but by any means its not a downside of EVs, it's a problem of connectivity and corporate greed. EVs existed before connectivity and none of the issues cited in the article were in those early versions. Similarly, connected non electric cars have the same problem. See BMW which built cars with heated seats but required you to give them extra money to activate them, all the examples with John Deer, connected range rovers that you could remote open, etc. I'm not shocked by the fact that companies like Toyota and co. will try to leverage random small features like remote open or remote diagnostics that require connection to start charging you monthly. Subscription economy is the shitty way the world is moving to, and any industry that didn't pivot there yet is getting very jealous.
• txneo 5y ago
  It sounds like these cars will be a prime target for hacking into and rooting the same way that a smartphone is rooted. Otherwise, why not lease a thing like this which is so expensive so locked?
• rcrestomods 5y ago
  You do if you build it yourself! Hack the planet! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8McUViPbh6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8McUViPbh6M P.S. just look at the new Koenigsegg electric motor. So much potential.
• webmobdev 5y ago
  In the future we won't own anything, corporates will. And with the data they will collect, share and collate, and use against us, they will effectively enslave us. But we'll all still be under the illusion that we have autonomy and freedom. .
  • selfhoster11 5y ago
    F*ck that. I want no part in that future.
  • aww_dang 5y ago
    You can still go the DIY kit car option or have a professional do it for you.
    • LinuxBender 5y ago
      When my 23 year old vehicle finally gives in and it gets too expensive to repair I will be getting a side-by-side. [1] Possibly even one that is EV but no internet connections. No fondle-screen. It will cover 99% of my driving needs as I don't even leave this county any more. I see people drive their side-by-sides into town all the time, even the ones that aren't street legal and the troopers don't bat an eye. I will get the street legal version regardless. Maybe in 10+ years if large EV trucks have options for no internet/cellular network connection and no touch screens I might get one. They have a lot of bugs to work out and competition to create. [1] - https://ranger.polaris.com/en-us/ranger-ev/ https://ranger.polaris.com/en-us/ranger-ev/
      • aww_dang 5y ago
        Kei trucks are another option. People really like the Suzuki Carry with aftermarket parts. A bit cheaper than the Polaris stuff too.
        • LinuxBender 5y ago
          Thankyou! I am currently reading up on these. I've seen a couple old ones in town. I didn't know that heating was an option in some of these that would be a big plus here.
• grey_earthling 5y ago
  A car isn't the only type of vehicle. You can own an electric bike, which is an electric vehicle. If you see “vehicle” and automatically think “car”, consider why that might be.
  • selfhoster11 5y ago
    That's worth pointing out, but sometimes you really do need a car. There's no way I'd be commuting to my office every day on a bike or by bus - the former thanks to the weather conditions, and the latter because of how much time is wasted in the traffic.
    • grey_earthling 5y ago
      Yeah, I agree that bikes and public transport can't meet everyone's needs right now. I'd also point out that the traffic holding up your bus is mostly cars :) so if enough people can be persuaded to shift to the denser form of transport (buses), those buses would waste less time in traffic — and so would the fewer people using cars out of necessity, and emergency services and so on.
  • righttoolforjob 5y ago
    It's because when someone means bike, they say bike.
  • bambax 5y ago
    Yes! Also, you can make your own ebike from a regular bike, a motor and a battery, and that gives you maximum freedom. It's also cheaper.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  • danuker 5y ago
    Relevant: YouTube channels "Not Just Bikes" and "City Beautiful"
• epgui 5y ago
  The article tries to make this about EVs, but really this seems to be more about modern cars in general.
  • avel 5y ago
    Just because most of the EVs are software heavy, it doesn't mean that all of them are. The upcoming Dacia Spring EV is a perfect counter-example.
  • rob74 5y ago
    Exactly! The problem of "not being able to repair your car by yourself anymore" is already years old and worsened gradually over time. Ok, with "older" (non-Tesla) cars you don't have OTA updates, but you still have lots of electronics for which you need a specialized repair shop. In fact, I would be glad to receive free updates for my 5-year-old Ford Focus. Instead, I have to live with 5 year old maps on the built-in GPS, or go to a dealer and pay $$$ to have them updated.
    • xscott 5y ago
      They won't update your maps. They'll just put advertisements that you're forced to watch at loud volume before the car will permit you to start it.
    • hnburnsy 5y ago
      You can update yourself, go to eBay, search Ford Sync 3 update, should cost about $40.
  • chme 5y ago
    Even more general, consumer electronic products. Companies feel the need to not just earn money when they sell their product, but earn to even more over its whole lifetime. This refocuses their goal into providing products that regularly need some attention, which only they can provide, instead of creating the best product they can before it is sold, and let the customer and third-parties maintain it if necessary.
    • 5y ago
• johannes1234321 5y ago
  From an environmental problem there is an interesting perspective on lending appliances. Let's look at washing machines: (or any other appliance) If you buy a washing machine there is limited incentive for the manufacturer to make it repairable or easy to dismantle and recycle the parts. Also for the owners there are incentives to run it as long as they can, while new, resource (energy, water, ...) efficient replacements will come out. If you turn this around and make it a rental system where you buy 1000 runs or so the producer for one is incentived to make sure they have as little service cases as possible, so the machine has to be robust enough for that. And then when taking it back they have an interest to recycle the parts as good as they can since it's suddenly their problem and people get new or refurbished machines regularly which reduces resource usage. Switching to such a model ain't easy, but interesting to me nonetheless.
  • userabchn 5y ago
  • goodpoint 5y ago
    True, but it could very well be the opposite: financial incentives can encourage churning through equipment even faster. Another problem: the Global South is a huge user of second hard stuff (car, phones, everything). "smart" devices kill the second hand market on purpose, to prevent reuse, leading to way more consumption and pollution. Never trust market forces to solve environmental problems.
  • nokeya 5y ago
    … and sooner or later these 1000 runs will shrinkflate to 900, then 800 runs for the same price…
  • Sankozi 5y ago
    I recently thought about the same thing. The problem with rental system is user now has less incentive to treat rented item well. But overall I think it still leads to less production and less resource usage.
  • tapas73 5y ago
• mohanmcgeek 5y ago
  This has nothing to do with the car being an EV. Isn't it? It's perfectly possible for ICE car manufacturers also to start adopting this "expansion pack for cars" model
  • hans_castorp 5y ago
    They are already doing that. For some Audi models you can order a tuning pack that increases your engine's power and is delivered through an internet connection (e.g. WiFi or built-in phone network). I think this is probably true for other brands as well.
    • rob74 5y ago
      A simple example which I have seen on many cars: "directional" headlights that are actually achieved by turning on the fog light on the side you are steering to. This is 100% implemented in software and uses the fog lights which are already installed (in all but the cheapest variants).
• captainmuon 5y ago
  So, can anybody recommend an EV that is not a smartphone on wheels, but an actual car that just happens to be electric? I really would like to get a Tesla, but besides the manufacturing issues (like large gaps between the panels) the IP and data issues are really putting me off. - Car is always online, gets OTA updates, GPS is always running - Cameras inside of the car - Tesla can remotely downgrade or deactivate the car - Independent mechanics can't repair many things
  • nharada 5y ago
    I love my Chevy Bolt as a (relatively) cheap city car. You'll probably be able to get one cheap once the battery recall issues are resolved. I got it for ~22k out the door new. It's not fully disconnected, but I basically feel like it's my car. I don't pay for any subscriptions (OnStar and XM are both available), and software updates are possible OTA but not required. No cameras (as far as I know) anywhere besides the backup cam. I'm not sure how repairable the electronics are as luckily I've never needed any non-warranty work done. There was an issue with the hands-free mics and I took it in to a local dealer and they just replaced a module under warranty. On the downside, it's a city car. Gets 260 miles of range, but fast charge rates are outdated (55kw max) and make road tripping harder than a more modern EV.
  • groos 5y ago
    If you want a "real", no-compromise EV, there really isn't any alternative to Tesla. For me, the killer feature was a supercharging network. Without it, you have an expensive toy unless you are just going to potter around town on short trips. Even though most day I just charge my car at home, there's no way I would have bought a Tesla without the supercharging network. Re. panel gaps and build quality, yes, the outside build/paint quality is about average (the seats are _very_ nice) but this is not why I bought a Tesla. I wanted the next generation vehicle tech and a car that can really go without making a fuss. Had I wanted absolutely even panel gaps, I would have bought a German or Japanese gas car. Re. OTA updates, my 3+ year old car feels it was bought this year because of OTA updates. I have no desire to acquire a new model because the newer model will practically be identical to mine, apart from the mileage. [edit:typos]
• jillesvangurp 5y ago
  A few counter points: - Loads of aftermarket conversions of existing cars to EVs are done by third parties using a wide range of components from OEMs, custom built stuff, or scrapped EVs. E.g. Tesla batteries have a high value for this. Not that hard apparently. - There are companies providing aftermarket upgrades to Teslas and other EVs to e.g. install custom batteries. For example, Our Next Energy (One) has installed their batteries in Teslas and other vehicles: https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/05/our-next-energy-tests-its-750-mile-range-prototype-in-a-tesla-model-s/ https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/05/our-next-energy-tests-i.... So, it's not true you are dependent on the OEM for this. Same with many older EVs that are still servicable. E.g. the original Nissan Leaf from twelve years ago can be equipped with after market battery replacements. - Tesla recently urged owners of older models to come in to replace their 3G modules with 4G replacements to keep the over the air updates and other online stuff going. The cars work fine without that but obviously lose some functionality as 3G networks are being shut down. - ICE vehicles are similarly software intensive. It's just that most vendors are a bit behind on update procedures and the update procedure generally sucks. They're busy switching to EVs instead of developing new ICE vehicles, so there's a lot of effectively unsupported software in the field that will never get serviced even if it is full of bugs. Which is of course common because most car manufacturers aren't very good at creating software. It's not a problem if the car keeps on running. - Lots of things are software intensive these days. This is not unique to EVs. Why single those out?
  • guyzero 5y ago
    "- Lots of things are software intensive these days. This is not unique to EVs. Why single those out?" Very much this. The description in the article sounds like owning a laptop vs a desktop pc. People don't care that they can't upgrade their car if they're just going to get a new one every three years anyway that has better features and twice the range. It's not how I buy cars, but the majority of car buyers don't buy cars like I buy cars.
  • HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
    > most car manufacturers aren't very good at creating software They're been doing it for decades at this point. Which part of it aren't they good at? I'm not in the automotive industry, but the code I write has to conform to MISRA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Industry_Software_Reliability_Association https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Industry_Software_Reliab...) guidelines. I think they've learned a few things by now.
• rvz 5y ago
• tinco 5y ago
  "Tesla limits driving range through software then sell the vehicle at a lower price" The battery is the most expensive part in the car, no way manufacturers would put them in and not expose them through software just to sell at a lower price point. That's just not how the world works. Tesla, as well as every other long term lithium battery producer limits the amount you can use to protect the longetivity of the battery. Their company wouldn't do so well if after 3 years reports of severely degraded batteries started coming out. It still supports the article's point, but it's a lot less malicious. You don't get to decide how much to drain your battery because Tesla has a reputation to maintain.
  • BlueTemplar 5y ago
    This isn't about discharging the battery "under 0%" or charging it "over 100%", as car batteries already only go between 25% and 85% effective charge, this is about forcibly keeping them what should be between 35% and 75% (for the "60" => "40" kWh models) https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-lithium-based-batteries https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-... And while this does have some extra benefit in terms of battery lifetime, it's fucked up that you wouldn't be able to choose the % charge on batteries that you supposedly own.
  • objclxt 5y ago
    > The battery is the most expensive part in the car, no way manufacturers would put them in and not expose them through software just to sell at a lower price point. That's just not how the world works. That is literally what Tesla did in Canada: https://www.thedrive.com/news/40153/heres-why-tesla-still-sells-a-94-mile-model-3-without-autopilot-in-canada https://www.thedrive.com/news/40153/heres-why-tesla-still-se...
    • rpmisms 5y ago
      That's essentially a show model, made to fulfill a stupid government funding mandate. It ends up being better for the customer in the end.
• bipson 5y ago
  This is not limited to EVs - several "old school" manufacturers have not only put uplinks in their cars (obviously just so that the user can do fancy things remotely /s), but also introduced rental options, pay-as-you-go extras (BMW had a "pay 5k, get a few extra kW for a weekend"-thing once, don't know if it still exists). Skoda at least (I expect all of the newer VWs, Audis, Seats, ...) use the built in mobile uplink to gather massive amounts of data about usage, e.g. how often the car is "pushed hard", or driven dangerously. Nobody knows exactly how they will use that, maybe to limit guarantees? - but if the cars is yours and yours only, this shouldn't matter, right? It shouldn't happen in the first place. Well, not anymore I guess. The manufacturers will not limit these possibilities to a certain drive-train technology - why should they? It is also not limited to "newer companies", all of them will do it. Further, if the customer likes these models, the manufacturers (and increasingly more of them) will expand their offering. Heck, the majority of cars on the street where I live are not legally owned anyway, they are all leased and people like that a lot.
  • ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    > use the built in mobile uplink to gather massive amounts of data about usage, e.g. how often the car is "pushed hard", or driven dangerously. Nobody knows exactly how they will use that, maybe to limit guarantees? - but if the cars is yours and yours only, this shouldn't matter, right? Why wouldn't it matter? About 10 years ago, a friend bought a brand new VW Polo and after 2000km ended up with warped brake discs. When he went to the VW dealer to have them replaced under warranty, the dealer refused, claiming that the warrant only covers stuff like engine and bodywork and not consumable parts like brake discs, and also that brake discs should not warp under normal usage, which is one of the conditions of the warranty to be valid, and since they are warped, the dealer claimed that the owner mush have been driving his car outside of the normal usage specs the car is rated for and under which the warranty applies. I guess that telemetry will help manufacturers validate or invalidate warranty claims.
    • cyberge99 5y ago
      Who gets to see the telemetry?
• StreamBright 5y ago
  I am wondering when we are moving over to hydrogen powered vehicles already.
  • timbit42 5y ago
    Hydrogen won't happen in passenger vehicles and it's too expensive to produce for it to be used for much else. Electricity is one of the fundamental forces. Using an element like hydrogen will never be as efficient. To beat electricity, you may be able to do it by controlling one of the other fundamental forces such as gravity.
  • pdonis 5y ago
    Hydrogen has some serious disadvantages for vehicles: it's very difficult to store and it is much more flammable, meaning refueling is much more hazardous. The only potential advantage to it would be if we could mine it, but since we don't live on Jupiter, we can't; we have to make it, and it costs more energy to make it than you get back out of it when you burn it.
    • outworlder 5y ago
      > it costs more energy to make it than you get back out of it when you burn it. This is fine. Gasoline has horrendous losses too. The problem is that the most economical way of making hydrogen is by using fossil fuels(natural gas). Just burn the natural gas instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_reforming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_reforming
      • pdonis 5y ago
        > Gasoline has horrendous losses too. I'm not sure what "horrendous" losses you're referring to, but I assume you mean losses due to inefficiency in combustion. That's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the fact that hydrogen does not occur in its combustible form on Earth. You can't just refine it by purifying something that comes out of the ground, the way gasoline is refined from crude oil. You have to produce it by some process that basically reverses the chemical reaction that will take place when you burn it. And since the chemical reaction of burning produces a large amount of energy (otherwise you wouldn't use it to do things like power cars), reversing that reaction requires a large amount of energy (which is why steam reforming, as the article you reference says, is strongly endothermic). All that is in addition to the thermodynamic losses that will occur during combustion when you burn the fuel.
• w3news 5y ago
  This is indeed not limited to EV's and cars. Search e.g. on "John Deere right to repair", and you will see that farmers cannot repair their own tractor anymore, and need the factory dealer to repair it, and the owner have to wait and cannot do anything. Prices of old school tractors are rising, because a lot of farmers like to repair a lot of things, so they can keep going, and dont have to wait for a mechanic that can repair it. On your car, i also like old cars, because you can bring it to every mechanic, or do it yourself. I like the basic car, and hope EV's will come that are also simple and build like Lego, so you can easy switch some (electronic) parts. Who need large displays, self driven cars, and other gadgets. A vehicle is just a useful thing to bring you from A to B on a save way, we dont need distraction from all the expensive gadgets, just safety and comfort. Just keep cars simple please.
• brainwipe 5y ago
  Do you ever own anything highly technical? My phone requires regular updates to keep it secure; as does my computer, my TV, etc. If I get my home heating repaired then it has to be with someone registered or my home insurance is void. My first 2 cars, I could work on. They were old, easy to fix and didn't require special tools. My 2006 Yaris has a pressurized diesel system I can't mess with. So that needs specialist knowledge.
  • selfhoster11 5y ago
    I definitely own my Linux desktop. I still have to accept auto-updates to stay secure, but I trust these random software authors not to screw me over infinitely more than I'd trust Microsoft or Google.
    • brainwipe 5y ago
      I understand the issue of trust. I think my point still stands. You don't really own it unless you're doing the kernel fixes yourself.
  • mullen 5y ago
    My phone and TV continue to work doing their primary job if I don't have them attached to the Internet. My Google Pixel 5 Pro will continue to operate as a phone only if it is removed from Internet and unable to install updates or check into the Google Mothership. Same with my Sony TV. Yes, they lose some functionality because they are not on the Internet but I would expect that because those functionalities require the Internet. However, my car should always work as a car, even without Internet access or ever checking with the Car Manufacturer Mothership. Yes, I can expect mapping feature to not work, but when I start my car, it should always start.
    • brainwipe 5y ago
      But if the phone network decides to change how connections are made you decide not to update your phone, it won't work. 1G is deprecated. 2G has 11 years left in it in the UK. If you don't get your car serviced; it will cease to work and servicing will require updates. In most modern cars you are beholden to specialist knowledge to do that. I agree with your trust issue but I think we already trust technology companies for many parts of our lives.
• eimrine 5y ago
  I think you don't really own even a petroleum vehicle. For example, an engine is controlled by non-FOSS computer device for fuel injecting. Another example, you can not turn off your seat-belt alert. Please note, I am not a big fun of carburetor engines or driving without seat-belts. But if I can not turn on an engine without running some malware and have to obey to some guy who has written what I ought to do while sitting in my car then I am not an owner of the engine and the rest of "my" car.
  • drewzero1 5y ago
    It's not available in any recent cars, but one of my cars has a mechanical fuel injection system that was commonly used on VWs, Porsches, Mercedes, and SAABs in the 80s. Working on this car I really get the sense that I do own it (for better or for worse)!
• hughrr 5y ago
  I don't mind not owning cheaper things but when it comes to very high value purchases i.e. houses, cars etc, I'm not going to put capital in up front or leverage debt unless I actually own all rights to them. I don't mind renting them but the value proposition has to be decent and it's not for any EVs at the moment for my personal circumstances. It would be silly for almost everyone I know to invest in one as well and they only end up realistically as status purchases. When my current, modest petrol vehicle becomes to cost inefficient to look after, I'm not going to bother getting another one. I live in a major city with good public transport so will leverage that, ride my bike and hire a car if I need one.
• trabant00 5y ago
  While the trend for vendor lock-in applies to ICE vehicles as well it feels disingenuous not to acknowledge the differences. The difference is comparable to PC vs smartphone. Sure, you get a lot of proprietary code on PCs as well but come on...
  • detaro 5y ago
    Are you sure you aren't just comparing Tesla vs other brands? Tesla is pushing the "smartphone"-style further/first and only does EVs. Whereas with other brands it does seem like they follow the same trend line towards that with both EVs and non-EVs in their ranges (and many would do it more if they could manage doing it, but traditional car companies and software is ... challenging)
• fit2rule 5y ago
• throwaway22032 5y ago
  This isn't limited to EV's. I drive a 20 year old car, my local government is pushing for me to buy a newer one "cos emissions". Which is ridiculous - I drive it infrequently enough that the cost of just making the body of a new car and nothing else would outweigh the savings. The endgame seems to basically be that I move out of the city, which would be a massive own goal emissions/energy wise because it's far more costly for me to bop around on my own land miles away from services than it is for me to use my car once or twice a week whilst taking public transport most of the time. Perfect is the enemy of the good.
  • snarf21 5y ago
    This isn't about you specifically. They want old cars to get scrapped so the average emissions goes down even further even quicker. They won't want your car to end up in the hands of someone who will drive it A LOT. Each EV sold is one less ICE sold. The goal is a market of lower emission used cars.
    • throwaway22032 5y ago
      Except my car only has about another 5-10T of CO2 in it before everything fails anyway. This makes no sense, the current set of EV's aren't built to last much longer than ICE cars do.
      • outworlder 5y ago
        They will definitely outlast ICE vehicles - except for the battery. We need a better story on that.
        • aliher1911 5y ago
          When people say electric car will outlast ICE what do they mean exactly? I'm driving 10 y.o. Honda and with my usage I think rubber and plastic trims will fall apart and the body would rust much sooner than its engine or gearbox will fail. All the parts like upholstery, suspension wear as much on electric as on ICE I would think. No one replaces those parts, does it mean you'll be driving your electric car till your sit falls through the rusted floor but the engine still runs smooth?