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Not everyone should meditate

231 points by joshcsimmons 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sAbakumoff 5y ago
Literally everyone should practice METTA at this unprecedented times.
bayesian_horse 5y ago
Such a claim can't be disproven. But the author doesn't have any really good argument why somebody shouldn't try meditation. In my opinion, if you can "think" yourself into something like a dangerous psychosis, then that is not a problem of sitting down too much, it is a problem that should be addressed through other channels like proper medical help. Yes, there are sharlatans, sects, whatever, but that's not what I mean by "meditation".
naruvimama 5y ago
TLDR; Every major school or lineage originating from Sanathana Dharma insists on the importance of a guru's guidance and/or initiation. Yet people decide to ignore it and think Apps can/should replace a guru. Going it alone comes with its risks, there are many who have done it having taken extreme plunges, some throwing away their last piece of clothing (or their kingdoms) to erase themselves of the memory & attachment to their past. Bringing it into our narrow world view trivialises this seeking, yes it is not the same, few people have true seeking to understand/experience reality.
yawboakye 5y ago
one just don’t write about meditation and riddle the article with ads
Karto 5y ago
This post reminds me of the book : Trauma Sensitive Mindfulness, by David A. Treleaven. It explains how incompetent meditation can awaken and reinforce trauma, while a competently handled meditation can be part of the toolbox to heal it.
barrenko 5y ago
Turtles all the way down. Also, meditation is a vehicle, not the destination, at one point you're gonna have to go further.
unfocussed_mike 5y ago
People with OCD [0] should consider doing less meditation, IMO. I find that meditation can lead me into rumination traps where I make no progress. I sometimes have to set myself deadlines or checkpoints to make sure that I do not ruminate my way out of available time. What I tend to need instead is breathing techniques to stay and cope within the moment, which I accept is like task-focussed micro-meditation in a way. But deliberate, long quiet meditation rarely helps me and it can make things worse. [0] by which I mean the debilitating condition, not the pop-culture joke about pointing out pictures aren't straight or kerning on some signage is wrong
intpete 5y ago
Having a life-long love affair with Japanese Zen, and a ten year zazen practice, the most useful insight for me comes from Claire Gesshin Greenwood's book, Bow First, Ask Questions Later. <quote> Most teachers of Zen, in Japan at least, will tell you that Zen is "not about thinking," and that practice is something you do primarily with your body. </quote> Soto Zen's practice of Shinkantaza, 'Just Sitting' fits well this. It's the posture, stupid. A few more snippets from Gesshin's book: In the Zen tradition especially, there is a lot of emphasis placed on "not thinking." In "Universal Instructions for Zazen", Dogen Zenji wrote, "Think of not-thinking. How do you think of not-thinking. Non-thinking. This in itself is the essential art of zazen." So generally (in Japanese Zen) the advice given is to just practice without trying to understand what is happening, because the only way to actually learn something is to engage with the thing itself without adding your own idea. If you add your own idea, then you are just engaging with your idea, not the thing you are trying to learn. I should add that this is all advice that I have personally received.
omnicognate 5y ago
There are different ways of meditating. If you're hallucinating blue, humming God balls you're certainly not doing what I do. I think what I do would probably be beneficial for most people. I'd hesitate to say all.
- jvanderbot 5y ago
  I agree. Most "meditation" (mindfulness) as I've seen it portrayed is really a very quiet, self-driven cognitive behavioral therapy: Learn to recognize thoughts, interrogate them to see where they may be false, and retrain to be detached from those cycles. That's a gentle practice that, in addition to taking 10-20m for yourself in quiet place, is pretty much OK as a general recommendation.
- hombre_fatal 5y ago
  Yeah, I don't think too many people are accidentally going to stumble upon the sort of meditation-induced psychosis talked about in the post using Headspace or Waking Up to try and reclaim some presence in their thoughts. They just get you to sit there, consciously realize that thoughts come from nowhere, and notice that you can merely discard them. After a year of the Waking Up app, it's just a practical way to reground myself. For example, maybe I realize a bit of anxiety in a large place like a music festival, and I take a moment to try to discard the feeling. I'd be surprised if this wasn't the sort of meditation most people associate with the word. So the thought of that being psychedelic or dangerous to people, suggested in the post, is just a reminder of how many things fall under the umbrella of "meditation".
  - kragen 5y ago
    I think it's more a question of dose. If you're meditating 20 minutes a day for three years you probably won't see a big effect. If you're meditating 12 hours for a day for 10 years, you're going to encounter a lot of stuff that could get labeled "psychosis" by people who don't know about it. And, it may be permanent. What kind of meditation you're doing will affect what you encounter and how you deal with it, but none of the paths will remain just "a practical way to reground [your]self."
njacobs5074 5y ago
I’ve meditated on and off for a few decades and have only ever experienced a sense of calm and clarity. Is the author’s experience common for other people?
- krageon 5y ago
  > Is the author’s experience common for other people? Not at all.
- xkcd-sucks 5y ago
  https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+5.+Dissolution%3CCOMMA%3E+Entrance+to+the+Dark+Night?p_r_p_http%3A%2F%2Fwww.liferay.com%2Fpublic-render-parameters%2Fwiki_nodeName=Main&p_r_p_http%3A%2F%2Fwww.liferay.com%2Fpublic-render-parameters%2Fwiki_title=MCTB%205.%20Dissolution%2C%20Entrance%20to%20the%20Dark%20Night https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCT...
  - kragen 5y ago
    I don't think the author of the article has yet reached the Dark Night of the Soul.
    - cbfrench 5y ago
      Or at the very least doesn’t mean what St. John of the Cross means by it. When I took ascetical theology in seminary, my professor told us that if someone comes to you and says they’re undergoing the Dark Night, they probably aren’t. (Unless you for some reason happen to be the spiritual director of a contemplative order, but even then.) He wasn’t being flippant; it was just a recognition of the degree of spiritual progress needed even to arrive at that point. It can be easy to confuse aridity or even unaddressed psychological issues for something like the Dark Night, but it does have a precise technical meaning in the mystical literature. It isn’t just “prayer is difficult for me right now.”
      - zozbot234 5y ago
carterschonwald 5y ago
Theres actually some evidence (or a least a lot of pubmed papers) that touch on how for certain at risk populations, meditation can increase the probability of an episode of psychosis! (so anyone who has any family history of schizophrenia or other things in the same space, really need to be careful of meditation and friends) see these google scholar results for more info: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=meditation+and+psychosis&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=meditation+and+psychosi...
- mistrial9 5y ago
  I believe that ' family history of schizophrenia ' is not fully understood.. there is an interrelated system of health, genetics, aging, stress, nutrition and extreme experiences, which can go many ways.. I believe that 'schizophrenia' is real and serious, but that the factors involved in leading to it, and its treatments, are not fully understood.. with that said, I believe there is science evidence that marijuana and meditation, both can be triggering to an ill mental state.. along with other, stronger things of course.. common street methamphetamine can bring on illness rather quickly and is addictive.. serious personal injury like trauma can bring on illness rather quickly.. things like that..
  - kayodelycaon 5y ago
    Both schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are highly correlated with family history. There is a clear connection something genetic causes them. What that is… we don’t know. Fortunately, we don’t need exact answers to do science. :) Psychiatry (and therapy) is far more advanced that it was just a few decades ago. It’s incredible we are where we are today. American culture is starting to accept and talk about mental health. Where will we be in another 30 years? :)
- joshcsimmons 5y ago
  Wow - thanks for posting. Had seem some brief research about it before but not this much. This really should be a larger part of the cultural conversation around meditation.
- 5y ago
hprotagonist 5y ago
expecting "good for me" to be "always fun and easy" is, broadly speaking, going to lead to some weird and probably disappointing mismatches of expectation and outcome. Meditative practice, prayer, etc. are "good for you", but they are _challenging_, which again, doesn't mean "a thing that is hard to learn but is sunshine and rainbows once i learn it". It means that you will come up against some dark shit sometimes, and that's "good" but it is in no way "fun", and yeah, you need a community of like-minded practitioners to help you. Relatedly, therapy is "good" but usually not "fun"; and therapists need therapists of their own, too.
gleenn 5y ago
Author compares meditation to doing LSD, then states that doing LSD can be helpful but super hurtful to possibly schizophrenic people. Some part of me can't stop thinking that it's nuts to tell people to not sit quietly and try and clear your mind because it might trigger schizophrenia.
- nerdponx 5y ago
  A lot of people here seem to be assuming that "meditation" has to be "intense Buddhist practices deliberately designed to destroy your sense of self." Maybe that's the problem? People read about "meditation" and don't realize what they're getting into? I don't get it.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure that "destroy your sense of self" is an anti-pattern, even in Buddhist practices. The "dark night" arises out of the very fear and despair that your sense of self could somehow be broken or destroyed, but the goal is to realize that your "senses" are all there, and that "awakening" is about giving yourself the choice of abandoning a flawed understanding of what those weird "senses" are all about. I respect the fact that most people by far will want to stay the f--- away from the "dark night"; it should only be explored by those who have the prereqs and the ethical maturity and wisdom to get past it smoothly. But the idea that the whole thing must be unreservedly bad or "destructive" is just too limiting.
- labrador 5y ago
  It's not nuts, it's Christian. The author states he is a Christian. Some Christian sects think that Yoga and meditation are rituals that open up the dark side. I hear all the time how meditation lets the demons in. 6 Reasons to Reject Eastern Meditation and Yoga https://rosilindjukic.com/eastern-meditation-differs-biblical-meditation/ https://rosilindjukic.com/eastern-meditation-differs-biblica... I'm bipolar and I meditate - I sit queitly, focus on my breath and try to let my thoughts quiet down. It's a way of relaxing. The end goal is to be at peace in the moment, not some crazy drug-like experience
reddit_clone 5y ago
People who suffer from severe ADHD, meditation is nearly impossible.
- astrange 5y ago
  This is true but the causation is the other way round - meditation is an exercise and if you gain the capability to do that means your ADHD is getting better.
- kragen 5y ago
  Like programming, meditation is nearly impossible for everyone. At first.
  - 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
    Also like programming, mainstream tools and procedures sometimes fail in bizarre, frustrating, and utterly undocumented ways when working with unusual hardware.
    - kragen 5y ago
      Sometimes, but you'd be amazed at how much documentation there is on meditation.
- cbfrench 5y ago
  This is an underappreciated point. I’m an Anglican priest, and I always thought I was just really bad at prayer. (Ironic, I know.) But then I got diagnosed a couple of years ago, and I realized that my brain was working against me. Some day I have a mind to write a book on spiritual disciplines for those with ADHD and how we talk about prayer and the spiritual life is often not useful for those with the disorder. But, you know, I have ADHD, so I doubt that will ever get written. ;)
- KerrAvon 5y ago
  This is definitely not the case for everyone with severe ADHD. I think you have to define "severe" and you have to define "meditation." If your ADHD allows you to hold a steady professional-level job, I suspect you can do TM, for example.
beebeepka 5y ago
I would like to at least try to meditate but I am not calm person. Not at all. Even coffee and green tea kick my nervous system into overdrive, so 8 don't consume them. What could possibly make meditation accessible to a person like me?
- kragen 5y ago
  Maybe guidance from a good teacher, patience with yourself, and persistence (continuing to practice even when you're frustrated with your lack of progress). Meditation isn't for everyone but nothing you have said suggests that it isn't for you.
  - beebeepka 5y ago
    Instead of me spilling tons of personal info, do you mind sharing what would suggest meditation isn't for someone? Your input will be appreciated
    - kragen 5y ago
      There's an anecdote in the Tipitaka where the Buddha analogizes would-be followers who never advance in the practice to farm animals that never grow, and explains what the herder does with those animals: he kills them. This is generally understood as a recommendation to kick hopeless monks out of the monastery, not literally kill them. You'd have to ask a competent meditation teacher, which I am very much not, how to know. I am pretty sure that the answer involves spending some time trying, with good guidance.
- cpeterso 5y ago
  Try starting with very short meditation sessions, even just 1-2 minutes. Even a small first step is still beneficial. Long meditation sessions are not the end goal. Self-awareness is. I just finished watching two informative series that I recommend: “The Science of Mindfulness: A Research-Based Path to Well-being” and “Practicing Mindfulness: An Introduction to Meditation”. They’re long (24 30-minutes episodes in each series). You can watch them for free on Kanopy.com with a library card from a participating library.
skilled 5y ago
This is a great perspective. I know what the author means with it, too. I spent 5 years in daily meditation practice (twice a day for 20 minutes) and it completely altered my state of mind. I was a naturally introverted person when I started, though I believe that meditation really stepped it up a notch for me. The strange thing about meditation and the idea of living in the present is that it completely transcends your life experience. It is not in human nature to fight with the inner workings of your own psychology, and for me - meditation really amplified all that I had been trough or was going through at the time. I spoke to Buddhist monks in Himalayas, and I lived with Hinduist practitioners in Bali. I went quite far with my exploration of meditation, and perhaps that warrants a blog post of its own. But in terms of keeping up with it, in my case - the chickens came home to roost. I was so caught up with spirituality and meditation that I overlooked anything else in my life. I started working less, started losing interest in certain things. I lost friendships that I later regretted. And I attribute it specifically to meditation because in that "peaceful state of mind" you can't help but laugh at the stupidity of this world. Why should you care if everything around you is designed to work against you. We live in a systematic world yet the system does not provide the means to be genuinely happy human. Insights like this really dominated my life at the time, and it was very difficult to process it at all. So, at some point, I experienced a "collapse" of sorts and stopped. At some point, when I catch up with the things I neglected - I would definitely like to return to the habit of daily practice. Meditation is an incredible tool (even if my own report says otherwise) to connect with this world on an entirely different wavelength.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  Yeah it feels like living in a hospital bubble to maximize health. I'd think we need to blend meditative view points (ability to keep some distance, to cool down) with normal daily lives.
- mahathu 5y ago
  What sort of meditation practice did you do?
  - skilled 5y ago
twofornone 5y ago
>The first odd thing I experienced was the inexplicable feeling that there was someone else in the room during my meditation. Luckily this didn't disturb me too much, one of the books I had read at that time mentioned that this was something that could happen during zazen. I now know that it is called the sensed presence effect. Other sits were more pleasant - I often had a sensation of uncaused joy arise. Sometimes I would see intense and clear images inside my head. During one session I saw a bright blue humming sphere that I knew was God (or some kind of representation of) - I swear I could hear the harmonious hum of it. I had previously abandoned my Christian faith but that experience alone made me reconsider my stance. I've been trying to meditate on and off for years, including daily 30 minute sessions for months at a time, and never experienced anything remotely as intense as this author. In fact despite all the time I've spent trying, I can't say I feel like I've gotten any better at it. At best I've developed a sensation I would describe as being extremely tall, as though my head were posted thousands of feet above my legs, but psychologically I don't feel like I'm doing any better today than when I started with respect to observing my thoughts or focusing on, say, breath. I suspect some people are far more predisposed, be it nature or nurture, toward successful and deep meditation than others.
TapWaterBandit 5y ago
Has anyone here ever tried Waking Up app by Sam Harris? I am working through the intro course now and very much enjoying it and finding it helpful, but I don't have a good base reference to know if he knows his stuff. I am not interested in the spiritual side of meditation so much as the learning to be in my own head a bit more stably and acknowledge and understand my emotions/thought more productively. Any advice would be appreciated.
- jes 5y ago
  I subscribed to the app and used it almost daily for a few years. I found it helpful.
- dorfsmay 5y ago
  Yes he knows one type of meditation really well. I went through his course, for me it was ok but I found the value of the Waking up app being exposed to other teachers from other traditions. It really opened up my eyes.
razzio 5y ago
Meditation is just a word. As an analogy you can say that driving a car can hurt you. Well that depends what kind of car, your driving style, the speed, whether you use the correct side of the road and so on. My personal experience is with 30 years of Anapana and Vipassana that started under guidance in a Thai monastery. Even with Anapana, which is considered quite low risk in terms of 'side effects', the message was that it is always better to practice with a teacher and don't mix different practices. This cannot be overstated enough. My own dark night lasted around 10 years, even with the guidance. Sometimes my outlook so dark it was impossible to look in the mirror. Over time there was a slow transformation of perspective that is still ongoing today. Less clinging to ideas of good, bad, and especially self. Things just happen and most of the time I can now see that all emotions and ideas around that what happens are created by the mind and constantly changing. What starts to matter more and more is compassion for the situation of others and their suffering. Meditation is often a transformative process and without proper support and guidance this process can indeed be risky.
- andrewflnr 5y ago
  > Less clinging to ideas of good, bad... > What starts to matter more and more is compassion for the situation of others and their suffering. I can't understand this at all. What is good/bad if not defined by compassion for others?
palencharizard 5y ago
Anyone else getting a 404? Seems like the article was taken down, judging further from what's listed on the homepage
- joshcsimmons 5y ago
  Should be back now - was doing some maintenance and brought it down for a few minutes.
URfejk 5y ago
Oh, this page does not exist. You can head back to homepage.
- joshcsimmons 5y ago
  Back up now!
dj_mc_merlin 5y ago
After a decade of practice I basically vividly hallucinate if I let myself when I meditate. Focus is more useful, but the hallucinations are very interesting/calming too. I'm lucky to have been born naturally resilient to mental damage, but I know from (friends') experience that when you're genetically predisposed to schizophrenia, you're SOL. I've definitely felt my sanity slip at times or delusions take hold, but eventually my brain would reset to the status quo. The silver lining is: unless you're willing to devote a large amount of your attention and life to this, you're unlikely to ever experience these kind of effects. I know people who practice for years and experience nothing.
newbie789 5y ago
Mo3 5y ago
Can confirm from personal experience. Even a lot of vipassana meditation by itself can send you into psychotic states when you're not ready for all the insight yet. I came very close to psychosis once, experienced ego death, broke down mentally and had to spend 2 months in a depression ward. Cannot recommend. I don't regret the 2-3 months of active ego dissolution phase, life has never been more beautiful and strangely peaceful and jarring at the same time. However, I did lose my job, my apartment and almost permanently lost my sanity as well, but now in hindsight it looks like it was all for the better. Nevertheless I don't think you should force something like this (like I very much did), the consequences to internal and external reality can be absolutely dramatic, I have gained insights I was not supposed to have and I've preferred to mostly live in peaceful ignorance since then... safe for the short moments of.. remembering. Everything and nothing at once. Becoming the observer. Observing the observer. Being everything... It's all still there if I really wanted to, and my state of mind has changed permanently in drastic yet mostly unconscious ways. It took years to come to terms with all of this and since I've achieved stream entry back then there is no way back out now. It's either managing to get out of the cycle or repeating it over and over again. Meditation has become mandatory like drinking water. I‘ll soon be confronted with all of this again. https://ibb.co/WtBR3FD https://ibb.co/WtBR3FD Tread carefully, reality is not as stable as you think.
- mi3law 5y ago
  I'm sorry you've had such difficult experiences. Does the following excerpt resonate with you? If so, I'd be happy to share more. "This comment is extremely important and should be borne in mind by all who feel tempted to dabble with the psychedelic experience without knowing what they are doing or why. He who enters the fifth state of consciousness without preparation may be spiritually paralyzed by his experience. He has seen too much too soon and, as a result, all games become meaningless. He cannot play the life games that satisfy men in the third state of consciousness. He cannot play the Master Game because he knows nothing about it and has no teacher. So he becomes, like Daumal's "leaf in the wind," an even more helpless plaything of external forces than he was before his rash experiment."
  - Mo3 5y ago
janeerie 5y ago
I started a casual meditation practice a couple of years ago and was getting benefits from it, when I came across an article (on Hacker News) written by a man who had developed severe disassociation and other disorders from meditation. The irony is that I started meditating because I struggle with panic disorder. Now I was hearing that my most common panic trigger (the thought that I could think myself crazy) was actually real! This sent me down quite a spiral that I have had to resolve by accepting the tiny odds that I might go spontaneously nuts. That's not an easy one, and I wish there was more reliable research on this issue.
- bckr 5y ago
  I'm sorry you experienced that. > had to resolve by accepting the tiny odds I think that's the right approach. Acceptance works wonders. FWIW, from what I've read you won't go spontaneously nuts unless you're doing a heavy, heavy practice--hours per day for weeks, at least.
rl3 5y ago
Meditation may—in rare instances—potentially trigger psychosis in vulnerable persons: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31668156/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31668156/
cma 5y ago
Hang on to your ego.
FastMonkey 5y ago
It's easy to spend your entire life running from one thing to the next. Meditation can just be a 10 minute break where you give yourself permission to take a mental break. Like almost everything, there is an unhealthy extreme. As an analogue, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that fitness is generally good for you, but trying to do ultra ironmans is probably not going to be good for many people, and if you attempt it you have to prepare in a way that's suited to your own body.
kragen 5y ago
https://hollyelmore.substack.com/p/i-believed-the-hype-and-did-mindfulness-meditation-for-dumb-reasons-now-im-trying-to-reverse-the-damage?s=r https://hollyelmore.substack.com/p/i-believed-the-hype-and-d... talks about some results of meditating seriously that are causing its author considerable distress. She also talks about some positive results.
foxhop 5y ago
lousyd 5y ago
The argument here seems to be that LSD can be dangerous, meditation is kind of like LSD, and therefore meditation can be dangerous. It does seem like a possibility, but you'd think if someone were going to write about it they'd try to present evidence of some sort to support the point.
- iaw 5y ago
  Meditation can cause severe psychotic episodes in some people [1]. The author may not present the best evidence but meditation is dangerous for some percentage of the population's mental health. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17848828/#:~:text=Conclusion%3A%20Meditation%20can%20act%20as,like%20Qi%2Dgong%20Psychotic%20Reaction https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17848828/#:~:text=Conclusion....
  - galangalalgol 5y ago
    Is there any way to know in advance if you are at risk? It seems to be beneficial for many as well right?
    - iaw 5y ago
      From what I've read, psychotic episodes were preceded by exceedingly long meditation sessions. Essentially, don't meditate for more than an hour a day and you should be okay, the psychotic breaks have a higher tendency to happen at meditation 'retreats' where they do like 8 hours a day of meditation.
    - skmurphy 5y ago
      Based on the documented cases of psychotic break and the number of people who meditate, the odds are approximately a million to one in your favor of getting some benefit out of mediation vs. a psychotic break.
  - skmurphy 5y ago
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17848828/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17848828/ documents a single case. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31668156/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31668156/ is a survey of 19 studies that identified 28 cases. Conclusion: "Of the 28 cases reported, 14 patients had certain precipitating factors like insomnia, lack of food intake, history of mental illness, stress, and psychoactive substance use." Given the millions who meditate I think risk is less than a range of ordinary daily activities we engage in that can entail a life changing injury: crossing the street, diving into a pool to swim, and eating peanut butter (aflatoxin risk) to name three. The suggestion to consult a mental health professional, in the absence of any prior psychological issues that were significant, seems to me to be a waste of time and money.
kranke155 5y ago
The author might be more correct than he imagines. I suffer from bipolar disorder, which was “activated” during a heavy meditation period 5 years ago or so. My therapist now advises me to stay away from it. She says that meditation is a form of “self hypnosis” and that I should stay away from daily practice, which is what I had previously.
- nradov 5y ago
  Is there any evidence that your bipolar disorder would have activated later or not at all if you hadn't meditated?
  - kranke155 5y ago
    Not that I’m aware of. But bipolar disorder is (very) poorly understood. Asking for evidence would imply for instance, that we know what bipolar IS, and from my knowledge, I don’t think we do. In order to have evidence that meditation and bipolar interact we would have to know what bipolar affects in our system that causes it. As far as I know we don’t know what causes it/how it works exactly. We have some inklings of what’s involved. What we have is some medications that work with relatively extreme side effects (I am now pre diabetic due to daily Seroquel use) and sort of folk tradition of what to do and not to do - ie bipolar people are advised to stay away from religion for instance. In my experience both the medication and the folk tradition are mostly right actually, as weird as that might sound. It’s not like psychologists are performing huge studies, but they can see patterns in the individual cases when they are studied in bulk - ie religious individuals might have more psychotic episodes etc.
  - kayodelycaon 5y ago
    Altered states of consciousness are know to trigger psychosis in people who many develop bipolar disorder. It’s relatively easy for me to deliberately trigger psychosis, despite being on antipsychotics. And it is a very bad idea for me to do that. Losing touch with reality isn’t exactly fun. For those who are interested, I’ve written about the four-month-long psychotic break that ended with me being diagnosed bipolar. https://kayode.co/blog/4106/living-with-psychosis/ https://kayode.co/blog/4106/living-with-psychosis/
mettamage 5y ago
When I had a daily body scan practice, I body scanned so much that I didn't emotionally recognize myself in the mirror. Only rationally did I know that it was me. But it felt like I was looking at a strange man. I stopped my daily practice after that. Unfortunately, most benefits also went away. Fortunately, a few of them stayed and for that I'm grateful :)
- sooheon 5y ago
  Wow cool. Sounds like semantic satiation.
raz32dust 5y ago
Meditation is a tool. I don't understand how anyone can claim that a tool is powerful enough to alter your mind or body can only have positive effects. Of course, any such tool can also alter your mind or body in a negative way, if used incorrectly or if it is not the right tool for you. Same with Yoga, Ayurveda, weed etc. If you think it has the power to change you, you have to accept that it can also change you in a way you did not anticipate or want. I think we should explore all of these, but also be careful in recommending them as "side-effect-free".
h0l0cube 5y ago
"If you can find a worthy meditation teacher - that may be a valid route too, but the lack of professional qualifications makes it difficult to estimate the authority of such a person." Vipassana teachers do at least have some guaranteed qualification, and there are schools right around the world. Despite being a 'silent' practice you can speak to the teacher at the middle and end of the day. https://www.reddit.com/r/vipassana/comments/agaqbo/what_is_the_process_for_becoming_an_assistant/ https://www.reddit.com/r/vipassana/comments/agaqbo/what_is_t...
blockwriter 5y ago
How much of this is caused by the dissociative nature of the world in which we live? A similar phenomenon can occur when writing fiction. When I think back on the time in life when my devoted interest in writing became unlimited, I look to the lack of coherent experience offered by the world outside of my work as the primary culprit for my fugue state.
servytor 5y ago
I think meditation is a way of being nice to our right hemisphere. Our left hemisphere is responsible for speech, and our right hemisphere is mute. Be nice to your right hemisphere, it's you too, and it doesn't like listening to your jibber-jabber. On a semi-related note, I think the movie 'Us' by Jordan Peele is about our split-minds. The protagonists are the left-hemispheres, and the clones are our right hemispheres (they cannot speak). I read a book called "Of Two Minds: The Revolutionary Science of Dual-Brain Psychology" recently and it just reinforces it. So if you break it down that way theoretically, our right-hemispheres live impoverished lives eating cold, raw rabbit and are experimented on, forced to be 'tethered' to us, listening through us to 'pop' music and the 'government' getting angrier and angrier, fantasizing about using scissors on our own corpus callosum...
- dorfsmay 5y ago
  Yes, some forms of meditation, in particular "open awareness" is said to give more space to the right hemisphere. I highly recommend this video if you want to hear about what life is when the right hemisphere is in control, especially for people who have been doing non-dual practices (lots of parallel experiences IMO): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU
labrador 5y ago
> As a Christian, I use it to hone my focus for prayer and to increase my mindfulness so that I can better sense what God wants for me. Thanks for letting me know because there is a long campaign against Yoga and meditation by some sects of American Christians, who feel they are demonic and meditation is how you let demons in so they take over. These Christians have bizarre ideas of what Yoga and meditation are, treating them like some kind of ritual that gets you in touch with a hidden world. That was my first thought when reading the title, so I'm happy the author owned up to his biases. Saying "Not everyone should meditate" is like saying not everyone should sit quietly, pay attention to their breath and see if they can quiet their thoughts. I am bipolar and meditation along with CBT is how I stay balanced
- joshcsimmons 5y ago
  I’m glad you found a combo that works for you. I don’t know many Christians that demonize meditation, but I’m sure they’re out there.
  - labrador 5y ago
    Out there? I get almost 6 million hits for "meditation demonic" and it really bugs me to having something so helpful to me slurred like this. I suggest you make it clear where you stand on the issue if you're going to write about and sneakily slur it without letting us know you dogmatic positions. edit: https://www.google.com/search?q=meditation+demonic https://www.google.com/search?q=meditation+demonic
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - bckr 5y ago
      I think you are reading aggression into GP's comment that wasn't there.
  - kayodelycaon 5y ago
    I grew up around a lot who did. The best way I can describe it is the spiritual practices around meditation where considered to be incompatible with Christianity.
lawrenceyan 5y ago
I feel like this actually somewhat overinflates the impact that meditation can have, at least on an acute level. There's a marked difference between taking a psychoactive substance like LSD and meditating. Conflating the two is somewhat disingenuous in my opinion. This isn't to say that meditation doesn't work, which I highly recommend for improving focus and de-stressing. You probably actually often end up meditating without even realizing it (e.g. anytime you exercise or listen to music).
cromd 5y ago
For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deeper than a nature/nurture argument where you might say "oh, I just behave a certain way I guess, its in my genes". You start to wonder if you're just being forced to watch the movie that is your own life. I personally feel like my life is a mostly-good movie, and there's reason to predict it will continue that way, but for many people, they're stuck in a bad movie. Some people may feel imprisoned by that. But not feeling in control can also be liberating, depending how you look at it. So I definitely agree that it's a double edged sword, or that YMMV. (Overall, I've enjoyed meditation, and I try to do it about once a week, just to remind myself that there's another mode of thinking that's available to me.)
- leobg 5y ago
  "You are not responsible for your own thinking." B.F. Skinner https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpDmRc8-pyU&t=793s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpDmRc8-pyU&t=793s
- leobg 5y ago
  Carl Jung used to compare thoughts with deer in a forest: If you sit quietly and observe, you will notice that they will come and go all on their own.
- eurasiantiger 5y ago
  There are levels to meditation. Deep down, everything you know to be real is a thought in your head. The joy of being close to someone. Pain and suffering. Ultimately, only NULL is kind of real, and even that representation is too much of something to really be real.
- iamacyborg 5y ago
  I think you’d enjoy reading Selfie by William Storr. It talks a lot about the left brain observer and various experiments that have observed what you’re talking about.
littlethrowaway 5y ago
No, they certainly shouldn't... for various reasons I did a vipassana 10 day silent retreat back in 2010, and, ended up triggering a bipolar episode[0]. No, there was no history of that in my family, it was a complete surprise. This obviously doesn't happen to everyone doing it, but, while my blog is very much buried now, I still get yearly mails from people saying that the same thing happened to them.. [0]. http://livingvipassana.blogspot.com/2010/02/bipolar-chronicles.html http://livingvipassana.blogspot.com/2010/02/bipolar-chronicl...
- nerdponx 5y ago
  A 10-day silent retreat is really intense though. A few minutes a day of calming your mind and being still in your body is a lot different. I suspect the author's 20 minutes a day of meditation was a bit more intense than just that. They describe voraciously reading Zen literature and also describe strong personal Christian beliefs. And why would you keep meditating intensely every day after you've started experiencing these symptoms? Wouldn't you want to back off a little at that point? It seems like people "abuse" meditation the same way people abuse hallucinogenic drugs, losing all sense of moderation and going too far with the psychonaut exploration stuff. Maybe also some people are unusually susceptible to these negative effects, and/or are unusually susceptible to being swept up in the spiritual quest fervor. I think this is the author's thesis, and fine, point taken. Those people in particular need to stay away from intense practice and should probably seek out a guide. But I think the majority of people don't have this problem.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- heyoni 5y ago
  I quit on day 5. My life started playing itself in my head on repeat and I started to focus on all the pain. I would imagine the universe dying and coming back to life where everything, especially some nasty events would reoccur ad infinitum. I was convinced that the people who were unlucky in this life were actually suffering for eternity and practically lost it. I had a panic attack, and then another and finally talked to the teacher who agreed that I should leave.
TameAntelope 5y ago
For me it's just hard to find an objective, "meditation is objectively good for you and here is what 'meditation' means." Every study I find is either terrible (p hacking) or not directly studying what I'd like.
awill88 5y ago
Meditation: Flex your third eye or it didn’t happen
SMAAART 5y ago
Agree. I mediated an average of 10-15 hours/week for about 10 years, and... it didn't do much for me. What instead did a lot for me was Zen Practice: - going to the temple - going to retreat - Zen reading - Dharma talks - Interview with the Zen Masters - Working at the Temple And then, meeting the inflated ego of some - but not all - the Zen characters in low-level leadership. I still practice Zen, but I do it as a Free-Agent LOL Recently I realized something, not so much achieving Nirvana, more like a DUH-moment: mediation is practice for mindfulness, and at any point in time, no matter where I am, no matter what I do, I can practice mindfulness. Here, I am doing it right now... And don't get me started in all the pseudo-meditation practices and "applications".
- jazzyjackson 5y ago
  Good insight. Seems to me people who doubt the usefulness of mindfulness are looking too close. It's obvious, the hard part is staying in that DUH moment, we are built to over-think :)
dorfsmay 5y ago
I cannot reach the page, copy on archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20220302210608/https://www.joshcsimmons.com/posts/no-not-everyone-should-meditate https://web.archive.org/web/20220302210608/https://www.joshc...
mtalantikite 5y ago
Coincidentally Mingyur Rinpoche just posted a talk about this as well [1]. I think the most important thing is to find a lineage to practice under, with texts that can support that practice. As much as people want to divorce it from it's historical context, meditation is part of a spiritual practice and communities of people have ways of teaching it in particular ways for a reason. No one should just go sit with zero context and no support. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VzeYD2VY5o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VzeYD2VY5o
- borepop 5y ago
  >No one should just go sit with zero context and no support. C'mon now. It's not hang-gliding or dropping acid, it's sitting quietly in a room. Not everything in life should be treated as if it's horrendously risky or can't possibly be understood by people exercising common sense. Nor, in my opinion, do the agglomeration of various meditative practices and teachings, no matter how old and "sacred" they may theoretically be, necessarily have anything all that critical to add to the subjective experience of simply sitting quietly. Just like the practices and teachings that accompany many organized religions, a lot of meditative lingo and theories about meditative "progress" is, IMHO, horseshit peddled by people who have decided to make a living selling said horseshit or have defined themselves by their unquestioning acceptance of said horseshit. edit: I should add that I can recognize that, as others discuss in this thread, deep meditation over long periods may trigger various psychological issues for some people. However, it's also true that, for example, eating food can be extremely problematic for some people who have serious eating disorders. That doesn't mean that the mere act of eating, which most people manage to do just fine, somehow needs to be guided by some deep tradition, and I don't believe that sitting in meditation needs such guidance in general either. For most people, meditation is a very gentle, mildly restorative practice that aids mood and focus, not some metaphysically shattering cataclysm.
  - joeberon 5y ago
    Even just 20 minutes a day sustained over a long time (e.g. 5 years) is enough to bring life-changing effects. It isn't as benign as it sounds on paper
gcp123 5y ago
dorfsmay 5y ago
Meditation is not just one thing, there are many traditions and many forms, some can lead to strange side effects, in fact, some document those side effects on their map towards their goal. Every culture has forms of meditation, for example some prayers that christian monks do are mindfulness meditation. See David Fontana's "The Meditator's Handbook: A Comprehensive Guide to Eastern and Western Meditation Techniques" for a overview of many forms of meditations across cultures. One thing that is not emphasized enough about meditation is to explore why you want to meditate, what you expect out of it. Different answers to that questions will lead to different practices. My understanding though is that if done in an intensive manner, all forms of meditation converge and have side effects. Finding a good teacher is important, the issue is to how... There is no easy answer, but there is a lot of information online, do your homework about particular practices and what to expect, their risks, etc... and trust your gut instincts. Don't take red flags lightly, talk to friend and family, see a professional if in doubt.
HimalayanGoat 5y ago
I have been meditating for the last 28 years and I meditate 2-3 hours a day, every day, without fail. Still don’t consider myself an expert and I am not a teacher although when pushed, I will sit with someone sincere and meditate with them. If they ask. The question is not whether everyone should meditate or not. The question is whether “I should meditate?” And if the answer to that is yes, try and find someone who knows what they are doing. If they charge you something, that’s fine, they need to make a living. If they charge you so much they make you weak—-run. If they in any way try to come between you and your friends or family—-run. I cannot say if meditation is for everyone because I am not everyone. I am me, and meditation has had a mind-blowing effect on my life. And with it (because of it) I can work (I’m an engineer) and know I am not working, I can do, and know I am not doing, and perhaps best of all, be, without blaming anyone.
Animats 5y ago
It's known to be possible to OD on religion. Why not meditation, too? See the classic "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".
Existenceblinks 5y ago
Grew up in a continent of many legendary arahant monks (in Thailand), I would say legit lessons have been lost a lot in the past century, to the point that, as of today I don't think I can trust any living monk as a teacher, it's also very hard to find direct descendants of passed away arahant monk. We call this trustworthy monk "Forest monk" who you barely saw/see them, they were/are mostly in deep jungle.
Rastonbury 5y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27890790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27890790 Discussion on meditation induced psychosis and some a bit more metadiscussion on how it is perceived by pro-meditation groups - victim blaming (eg. you're doing it wrong, this didn't happen to me, this isn't meditation). Seeing some similar comments in here. Some areas of meditation actually acknowledge some sort of "dark night" that practitioners have to push through which caused a mental breakdown in the author. Just because I've done LSD multiple times without psychosis, doesn't mean that LSD can't cause psychosis in some people. I believe it is the same with meditation. As much as some think meditation is beneficial, the effective sample size is 1.
- hartator 5y ago
  I agree. Meditation made a little “high” on life. Careless to the point of physical injuries. Stress via excess is obviously bad but it’s better guide in life than an utopia nirvana. Like if you look at a colony of beavers. Some are building a dam, others are collecting fruits, kids are playing in the river, some beavers are making love, … . And you have Dave. Dave just stay there 5 hours straight in some sort of yoga position. Just lost in his thoughts. Doesn’t contribute or do anything. Is there any value to be Dave?
  - agent008t 5y ago
    Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. One of the points about meditation is about being present, fully experiencing the present moment. By fully experiencing every present moment, you fully experience your life. The opposite would be living perpetually in the future or in the past; not living your life, but continuously preparing to start living it some day. In your example, the beavers being present and building a dam/collecting fruits are in fact the equivalent of skilled meditators. Dave 'lost in his thoughts' is a person unskilled in meditation, the default situation for a lot of people a lot of the time. Consider how many hours a week people tend to spend distracting themselves, 'lost in their thoughts' - time better spent just sitting and doing nothing, getting bored, and then getting an urge to be creative - like when you were a child.
cyberpunk 5y ago
This sort of thing comes up now and again, and all I can really say is: don't harm yourself by doing this incorrectly or without the proper support. If you're meditating intensively like a sesshin or a retreat, you really need some kind of experienced teacher or access to a proper community to help you deal with this kind of stuff. I am a practicing buddhist of the Zen variety, and I certainly couldn't do a 10 day vipassana retreat, even after actual years of practicing staring at a wall. People who expect to be able to do this kind of stuff, with a 'teacher' that got his/her credentials by sending off 500 dollars to deepak chopra without such things happening are misguided at best and being taken advantage of (read: suckers). There are no shortcuts, look after your health, don't overdo it. Don't pay charlatans.
gregfjohnson 5y ago
A helpful concept from Thomas Keating is "the evacuation of the unconscious". The idea is that it is normal to have painful thoughts arise into our consciousness when we enter into meditation. It is common in ordinary life to get into the habit of filling one's life with noise and distraction, in order to keep sources of anxiety or other negative emotions at bay. Meditation lessens the noise and distraction, which has the natural effect of making room for the suppressed thoughts and emotions to pop up. In meditation practice one learns to gently refrain from engaging with emotionally charged material, noticing it with objectivity and detachment, letting it pass by, and returning to a state of calm wordless awareness. In the natural course of events, suppressed fears and anxieties are much less powerful when looked at consciously and rationally. One ends up taking them less seriously, and consequently they tend to lessen in terms of their ability to cause unhappiness. Circling back to the point of the OP, if an attempt at meditation practice starts causing psychotic episodes or anything of that nature, don't do it. That's just common sense.
- Flankk 5y ago
  This is my experience as well. You gain self awareness and it helps your focus. I haven't experienced ghosts or orbs myself. The author should question his own sanity instead of being concerned with others.
  - elbear 5y ago
    Your positive experience doesn't discount others' unpleasant one. Through meditation you can reach deep into the unconscious. The safe approach is to start with practices that get you more in touch with the body, that get you to become more aware of the body. If you are grounded in the body, it's a lot easier to face whatever unpleasant emotions or sensations might come up.

231 points by joshcsimmons 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

sAbakumoff 5y ago

Literally everyone should practice METTA at this unprecedented times.

bayesian_horse 5y ago

Such a claim can't be disproven. But the author doesn't have any really good argument why somebody shouldn't try meditation. In my opinion, if you can "think" yourself into something like a dangerous psychosis, then that is not a problem of sitting down too much, it is a problem that should be addressed through other channels like proper medical help. Yes, there are sharlatans, sects, whatever, but that's not what I mean by "meditation".

naruvimama 5y ago

TLDR; Every major school or lineage originating from Sanathana Dharma insists on the importance of a guru's guidance and/or initiation. Yet people decide to ignore it and think Apps can/should replace a guru. Going it alone comes with its risks, there are many who have done it having taken extreme plunges, some throwing away their last piece of clothing (or their kingdoms) to erase themselves of the memory & attachment to their past. Bringing it into our narrow world view trivialises this seeking, yes it is not the same, few people have true seeking to understand/experience reality.

yawboakye 5y ago

one just don’t write about meditation and riddle the article with ads

Karto 5y ago

This post reminds me of the book : Trauma Sensitive Mindfulness, by David A. Treleaven. It explains how incompetent meditation can awaken and reinforce trauma, while a competently handled meditation can be part of the toolbox to heal it.

barrenko 5y ago

Turtles all the way down. Also, meditation is a vehicle, not the destination, at one point you're gonna have to go further.

unfocussed_mike 5y ago

People with OCD [0] should consider doing less meditation, IMO. I find that meditation can lead me into rumination traps where I make no progress. I sometimes have to set myself deadlines or checkpoints to make sure that I do not ruminate my way out of available time. What I tend to need instead is breathing techniques to stay and cope within the moment, which I accept is like task-focussed micro-meditation in a way. But deliberate, long quiet meditation rarely helps me and it can make things worse. [0] by which I mean the debilitating condition, not the pop-culture joke about pointing out pictures aren't straight or kerning on some signage is wrong

intpete 5y ago

Having a life-long love affair with Japanese Zen, and a ten year zazen practice, the most useful insight for me comes from Claire Gesshin Greenwood's book, Bow First, Ask Questions Later. <quote> Most teachers of Zen, in Japan at least, will tell you that Zen is "not about thinking," and that practice is something you do primarily with your body. </quote> Soto Zen's practice of Shinkantaza, 'Just Sitting' fits well this. It's the posture, stupid. A few more snippets from Gesshin's book: In the Zen tradition especially, there is a lot of emphasis placed on "not thinking." In "Universal Instructions for Zazen", Dogen Zenji wrote, "Think of not-thinking. How do you think of not-thinking. Non-thinking. This in itself is the essential art of zazen." So generally (in Japanese Zen) the advice given is to just practice without trying to understand what is happening, because the only way to actually learn something is to engage with the thing itself without adding your own idea. If you add your own idea, then you are just engaging with your idea, not the thing you are trying to learn. I should add that this is all advice that I have personally received.

omnicognate 5y ago

There are different ways of meditating. If you're hallucinating blue, humming God balls you're certainly not doing what I do. I think what I do would probably be beneficial for most people. I'd hesitate to say all.

jvanderbot 5y ago
I agree. Most "meditation" (mindfulness) as I've seen it portrayed is really a very quiet, self-driven cognitive behavioral therapy: Learn to recognize thoughts, interrogate them to see where they may be false, and retrain to be detached from those cycles. That's a gentle practice that, in addition to taking 10-20m for yourself in quiet place, is pretty much OK as a general recommendation.
hombre_fatal 5y ago
Yeah, I don't think too many people are accidentally going to stumble upon the sort of meditation-induced psychosis talked about in the post using Headspace or Waking Up to try and reclaim some presence in their thoughts. They just get you to sit there, consciously realize that thoughts come from nowhere, and notice that you can merely discard them. After a year of the Waking Up app, it's just a practical way to reground myself. For example, maybe I realize a bit of anxiety in a large place like a music festival, and I take a moment to try to discard the feeling. I'd be surprised if this wasn't the sort of meditation most people associate with the word. So the thought of that being psychedelic or dangerous to people, suggested in the post, is just a reminder of how many things fall under the umbrella of "meditation".
- kragen 5y ago
  I think it's more a question of dose. If you're meditating 20 minutes a day for three years you probably won't see a big effect. If you're meditating 12 hours for a day for 10 years, you're going to encounter a lot of stuff that could get labeled "psychosis" by people who don't know about it. And, it may be permanent. What kind of meditation you're doing will affect what you encounter and how you deal with it, but none of the paths will remain just "a practical way to reground [your]self."

njacobs5074 5y ago

I’ve meditated on and off for a few decades and have only ever experienced a sense of calm and clarity. Is the author’s experience common for other people?

krageon 5y ago
> Is the author’s experience common for other people? Not at all.
xkcd-sucks 5y ago
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCTB+5.+Dissolution%3CCOMMA%3E+Entrance+to+the+Dark+Night?p_r_p_http%3A%2F%2Fwww.liferay.com%2Fpublic-render-parameters%2Fwiki_nodeName=Main&p_r_p_http%3A%2F%2Fwww.liferay.com%2Fpublic-render-parameters%2Fwiki_title=MCTB%205.%20Dissolution%2C%20Entrance%20to%20the%20Dark%20Night https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/MCT...
- kragen 5y ago
  I don't think the author of the article has yet reached the Dark Night of the Soul.
  - cbfrench 5y ago
    Or at the very least doesn’t mean what St. John of the Cross means by it. When I took ascetical theology in seminary, my professor told us that if someone comes to you and says they’re undergoing the Dark Night, they probably aren’t. (Unless you for some reason happen to be the spiritual director of a contemplative order, but even then.) He wasn’t being flippant; it was just a recognition of the degree of spiritual progress needed even to arrive at that point. It can be easy to confuse aridity or even unaddressed psychological issues for something like the Dark Night, but it does have a precise technical meaning in the mystical literature. It isn’t just “prayer is difficult for me right now.”
    - zozbot234 5y ago

carterschonwald 5y ago

Theres actually some evidence (or a least a lot of pubmed papers) that touch on how for certain at risk populations, meditation can increase the probability of an episode of psychosis! (so anyone who has any family history of schizophrenia or other things in the same space, really need to be careful of meditation and friends) see these google scholar results for more info: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=meditation+and+psychosis&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=meditation+and+psychosi...

mistrial9 5y ago
I believe that ' family history of schizophrenia ' is not fully understood.. there is an interrelated system of health, genetics, aging, stress, nutrition and extreme experiences, which can go many ways.. I believe that 'schizophrenia' is real and serious, but that the factors involved in leading to it, and its treatments, are not fully understood.. with that said, I believe there is science evidence that marijuana and meditation, both can be triggering to an ill mental state.. along with other, stronger things of course.. common street methamphetamine can bring on illness rather quickly and is addictive.. serious personal injury like trauma can bring on illness rather quickly.. things like that..
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  Both schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are highly correlated with family history. There is a clear connection something genetic causes them. What that is… we don’t know. Fortunately, we don’t need exact answers to do science. :) Psychiatry (and therapy) is far more advanced that it was just a few decades ago. It’s incredible we are where we are today. American culture is starting to accept and talk about mental health. Where will we be in another 30 years? :)
joshcsimmons 5y ago
Wow - thanks for posting. Had seem some brief research about it before but not this much. This really should be a larger part of the cultural conversation around meditation.
5y ago

hprotagonist 5y ago

expecting "good for me" to be "always fun and easy" is, broadly speaking, going to lead to some weird and probably disappointing mismatches of expectation and outcome. Meditative practice, prayer, etc. are "good for you", but they are _challenging_, which again, doesn't mean "a thing that is hard to learn but is sunshine and rainbows once i learn it". It means that you will come up against some dark shit sometimes, and that's "good" but it is in no way "fun", and yeah, you need a community of like-minded practitioners to help you. Relatedly, therapy is "good" but usually not "fun"; and therapists need therapists of their own, too.

gleenn 5y ago

Author compares meditation to doing LSD, then states that doing LSD can be helpful but super hurtful to possibly schizophrenic people. Some part of me can't stop thinking that it's nuts to tell people to not sit quietly and try and clear your mind because it might trigger schizophrenia.

nerdponx 5y ago
A lot of people here seem to be assuming that "meditation" has to be "intense Buddhist practices deliberately designed to destroy your sense of self." Maybe that's the problem? People read about "meditation" and don't realize what they're getting into? I don't get it.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure that "destroy your sense of self" is an anti-pattern, even in Buddhist practices. The "dark night" arises out of the very fear and despair that your sense of self could somehow be broken or destroyed, but the goal is to realize that your "senses" are all there, and that "awakening" is about giving yourself the choice of abandoning a flawed understanding of what those weird "senses" are all about. I respect the fact that most people by far will want to stay the f--- away from the "dark night"; it should only be explored by those who have the prereqs and the ethical maturity and wisdom to get past it smoothly. But the idea that the whole thing must be unreservedly bad or "destructive" is just too limiting.
labrador 5y ago
It's not nuts, it's Christian. The author states he is a Christian. Some Christian sects think that Yoga and meditation are rituals that open up the dark side. I hear all the time how meditation lets the demons in. 6 Reasons to Reject Eastern Meditation and Yoga https://rosilindjukic.com/eastern-meditation-differs-biblical-meditation/ https://rosilindjukic.com/eastern-meditation-differs-biblica... I'm bipolar and I meditate - I sit queitly, focus on my breath and try to let my thoughts quiet down. It's a way of relaxing. The end goal is to be at peace in the moment, not some crazy drug-like experience

reddit_clone 5y ago

People who suffer from severe ADHD, meditation is nearly impossible.

astrange 5y ago
This is true but the causation is the other way round - meditation is an exercise and if you gain the capability to do that means your ADHD is getting better.
kragen 5y ago
Like programming, meditation is nearly impossible for everyone. At first.
- 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
  Also like programming, mainstream tools and procedures sometimes fail in bizarre, frustrating, and utterly undocumented ways when working with unusual hardware.
  - kragen 5y ago
    Sometimes, but you'd be amazed at how much documentation there is on meditation.
cbfrench 5y ago
This is an underappreciated point. I’m an Anglican priest, and I always thought I was just really bad at prayer. (Ironic, I know.) But then I got diagnosed a couple of years ago, and I realized that my brain was working against me. Some day I have a mind to write a book on spiritual disciplines for those with ADHD and how we talk about prayer and the spiritual life is often not useful for those with the disorder. But, you know, I have ADHD, so I doubt that will ever get written. ;)
KerrAvon 5y ago
This is definitely not the case for everyone with severe ADHD. I think you have to define "severe" and you have to define "meditation." If your ADHD allows you to hold a steady professional-level job, I suspect you can do TM, for example.

beebeepka 5y ago

I would like to at least try to meditate but I am not calm person. Not at all. Even coffee and green tea kick my nervous system into overdrive, so 8 don't consume them. What could possibly make meditation accessible to a person like me?

kragen 5y ago
Maybe guidance from a good teacher, patience with yourself, and persistence (continuing to practice even when you're frustrated with your lack of progress). Meditation isn't for everyone but nothing you have said suggests that it isn't for you.
- beebeepka 5y ago
  Instead of me spilling tons of personal info, do you mind sharing what would suggest meditation isn't for someone? Your input will be appreciated
  - kragen 5y ago
    There's an anecdote in the Tipitaka where the Buddha analogizes would-be followers who never advance in the practice to farm animals that never grow, and explains what the herder does with those animals: he kills them. This is generally understood as a recommendation to kick hopeless monks out of the monastery, not literally kill them. You'd have to ask a competent meditation teacher, which I am very much not, how to know. I am pretty sure that the answer involves spending some time trying, with good guidance.
cpeterso 5y ago
Try starting with very short meditation sessions, even just 1-2 minutes. Even a small first step is still beneficial. Long meditation sessions are not the end goal. Self-awareness is. I just finished watching two informative series that I recommend: “The Science of Mindfulness: A Research-Based Path to Well-being” and “Practicing Mindfulness: An Introduction to Meditation”. They’re long (24 30-minutes episodes in each series). You can watch them for free on Kanopy.com with a library card from a participating library.

skilled 5y ago

This is a great perspective. I know what the author means with it, too. I spent 5 years in daily meditation practice (twice a day for 20 minutes) and it completely altered my state of mind. I was a naturally introverted person when I started, though I believe that meditation really stepped it up a notch for me. The strange thing about meditation and the idea of living in the present is that it completely transcends your life experience. It is not in human nature to fight with the inner workings of your own psychology, and for me - meditation really amplified all that I had been trough or was going through at the time. I spoke to Buddhist monks in Himalayas, and I lived with Hinduist practitioners in Bali. I went quite far with my exploration of meditation, and perhaps that warrants a blog post of its own. But in terms of keeping up with it, in my case - the chickens came home to roost. I was so caught up with spirituality and meditation that I overlooked anything else in my life. I started working less, started losing interest in certain things. I lost friendships that I later regretted. And I attribute it specifically to meditation because in that "peaceful state of mind" you can't help but laugh at the stupidity of this world. Why should you care if everything around you is designed to work against you. We live in a systematic world yet the system does not provide the means to be genuinely happy human. Insights like this really dominated my life at the time, and it was very difficult to process it at all. So, at some point, I experienced a "collapse" of sorts and stopped. At some point, when I catch up with the things I neglected - I would definitely like to return to the habit of daily practice. Meditation is an incredible tool (even if my own report says otherwise) to connect with this world on an entirely different wavelength.

agumonkey 5y ago
Yeah it feels like living in a hospital bubble to maximize health. I'd think we need to blend meditative view points (ability to keep some distance, to cool down) with normal daily lives.
mahathu 5y ago
What sort of meditation practice did you do?
- skilled 5y ago

twofornone 5y ago

>The first odd thing I experienced was the inexplicable feeling that there was someone else in the room during my meditation. Luckily this didn't disturb me too much, one of the books I had read at that time mentioned that this was something that could happen during zazen. I now know that it is called the sensed presence effect. Other sits were more pleasant - I often had a sensation of uncaused joy arise. Sometimes I would see intense and clear images inside my head. During one session I saw a bright blue humming sphere that I knew was God (or some kind of representation of) - I swear I could hear the harmonious hum of it. I had previously abandoned my Christian faith but that experience alone made me reconsider my stance. I've been trying to meditate on and off for years, including daily 30 minute sessions for months at a time, and never experienced anything remotely as intense as this author. In fact despite all the time I've spent trying, I can't say I feel like I've gotten any better at it. At best I've developed a sensation I would describe as being extremely tall, as though my head were posted thousands of feet above my legs, but psychologically I don't feel like I'm doing any better today than when I started with respect to observing my thoughts or focusing on, say, breath. I suspect some people are far more predisposed, be it nature or nurture, toward successful and deep meditation than others.

TapWaterBandit 5y ago

Has anyone here ever tried Waking Up app by Sam Harris? I am working through the intro course now and very much enjoying it and finding it helpful, but I don't have a good base reference to know if he knows his stuff. I am not interested in the spiritual side of meditation so much as the learning to be in my own head a bit more stably and acknowledge and understand my emotions/thought more productively. Any advice would be appreciated.

jes 5y ago
I subscribed to the app and used it almost daily for a few years. I found it helpful.
dorfsmay 5y ago
Yes he knows one type of meditation really well. I went through his course, for me it was ok but I found the value of the Waking up app being exposed to other teachers from other traditions. It really opened up my eyes.

razzio 5y ago

Meditation is just a word. As an analogy you can say that driving a car can hurt you. Well that depends what kind of car, your driving style, the speed, whether you use the correct side of the road and so on. My personal experience is with 30 years of Anapana and Vipassana that started under guidance in a Thai monastery. Even with Anapana, which is considered quite low risk in terms of 'side effects', the message was that it is always better to practice with a teacher and don't mix different practices. This cannot be overstated enough. My own dark night lasted around 10 years, even with the guidance. Sometimes my outlook so dark it was impossible to look in the mirror. Over time there was a slow transformation of perspective that is still ongoing today. Less clinging to ideas of good, bad, and especially self. Things just happen and most of the time I can now see that all emotions and ideas around that what happens are created by the mind and constantly changing. What starts to matter more and more is compassion for the situation of others and their suffering. Meditation is often a transformative process and without proper support and guidance this process can indeed be risky.

andrewflnr 5y ago
> Less clinging to ideas of good, bad... > What starts to matter more and more is compassion for the situation of others and their suffering. I can't understand this at all. What is good/bad if not defined by compassion for others?

palencharizard 5y ago

Anyone else getting a 404? Seems like the article was taken down, judging further from what's listed on the homepage

joshcsimmons 5y ago
Should be back now - was doing some maintenance and brought it down for a few minutes.

URfejk 5y ago

Oh, this page does not exist. You can head back to homepage.

joshcsimmons 5y ago
Back up now!

dj_mc_merlin 5y ago

After a decade of practice I basically vividly hallucinate if I let myself when I meditate. Focus is more useful, but the hallucinations are very interesting/calming too. I'm lucky to have been born naturally resilient to mental damage, but I know from (friends') experience that when you're genetically predisposed to schizophrenia, you're SOL. I've definitely felt my sanity slip at times or delusions take hold, but eventually my brain would reset to the status quo. The silver lining is: unless you're willing to devote a large amount of your attention and life to this, you're unlikely to ever experience these kind of effects. I know people who practice for years and experience nothing.

newbie789 5y ago

Mo3 5y ago

Can confirm from personal experience. Even a lot of vipassana meditation by itself can send you into psychotic states when you're not ready for all the insight yet. I came very close to psychosis once, experienced ego death, broke down mentally and had to spend 2 months in a depression ward. Cannot recommend. I don't regret the 2-3 months of active ego dissolution phase, life has never been more beautiful and strangely peaceful and jarring at the same time. However, I did lose my job, my apartment and almost permanently lost my sanity as well, but now in hindsight it looks like it was all for the better. Nevertheless I don't think you should force something like this (like I very much did), the consequences to internal and external reality can be absolutely dramatic, I have gained insights I was not supposed to have and I've preferred to mostly live in peaceful ignorance since then... safe for the short moments of.. remembering. Everything and nothing at once. Becoming the observer. Observing the observer. Being everything... It's all still there if I really wanted to, and my state of mind has changed permanently in drastic yet mostly unconscious ways. It took years to come to terms with all of this and since I've achieved stream entry back then there is no way back out now. It's either managing to get out of the cycle or repeating it over and over again. Meditation has become mandatory like drinking water. I‘ll soon be confronted with all of this again. https://ibb.co/WtBR3FD https://ibb.co/WtBR3FD Tread carefully, reality is not as stable as you think.

mi3law 5y ago
I'm sorry you've had such difficult experiences. Does the following excerpt resonate with you? If so, I'd be happy to share more. "This comment is extremely important and should be borne in mind by all who feel tempted to dabble with the psychedelic experience without knowing what they are doing or why. He who enters the fifth state of consciousness without preparation may be spiritually paralyzed by his experience. He has seen too much too soon and, as a result, all games become meaningless. He cannot play the life games that satisfy men in the third state of consciousness. He cannot play the Master Game because he knows nothing about it and has no teacher. So he becomes, like Daumal's "leaf in the wind," an even more helpless plaything of external forces than he was before his rash experiment."
- Mo3 5y ago

janeerie 5y ago

I started a casual meditation practice a couple of years ago and was getting benefits from it, when I came across an article (on Hacker News) written by a man who had developed severe disassociation and other disorders from meditation. The irony is that I started meditating because I struggle with panic disorder. Now I was hearing that my most common panic trigger (the thought that I could think myself crazy) was actually real! This sent me down quite a spiral that I have had to resolve by accepting the tiny odds that I might go spontaneously nuts. That's not an easy one, and I wish there was more reliable research on this issue.

bckr 5y ago
I'm sorry you experienced that. > had to resolve by accepting the tiny odds I think that's the right approach. Acceptance works wonders. FWIW, from what I've read you won't go spontaneously nuts unless you're doing a heavy, heavy practice--hours per day for weeks, at least.

rl3 5y ago

Meditation may—in rare instances—potentially trigger psychosis in vulnerable persons: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31668156/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31668156/

cma 5y ago

Hang on to your ego.

FastMonkey 5y ago

It's easy to spend your entire life running from one thing to the next. Meditation can just be a 10 minute break where you give yourself permission to take a mental break. Like almost everything, there is an unhealthy extreme. As an analogue, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that fitness is generally good for you, but trying to do ultra ironmans is probably not going to be good for many people, and if you attempt it you have to prepare in a way that's suited to your own body.

kragen 5y ago

https://hollyelmore.substack.com/p/i-believed-the-hype-and-did-mindfulness-meditation-for-dumb-reasons-now-im-trying-to-reverse-the-damage?s=r https://hollyelmore.substack.com/p/i-believed-the-hype-and-d... talks about some results of meditating seriously that are causing its author considerable distress. She also talks about some positive results.

foxhop 5y ago

lousyd 5y ago

The argument here seems to be that LSD can be dangerous, meditation is kind of like LSD, and therefore meditation can be dangerous. It does seem like a possibility, but you'd think if someone were going to write about it they'd try to present evidence of some sort to support the point.

iaw 5y ago
Meditation can cause severe psychotic episodes in some people [1]. The author may not present the best evidence but meditation is dangerous for some percentage of the population's mental health. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17848828/#:~:text=Conclusion%3A%20Meditation%20can%20act%20as,like%20Qi%2Dgong%20Psychotic%20Reaction https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17848828/#:~:text=Conclusion....
- galangalalgol 5y ago
  Is there any way to know in advance if you are at risk? It seems to be beneficial for many as well right?
  - iaw 5y ago
    From what I've read, psychotic episodes were preceded by exceedingly long meditation sessions. Essentially, don't meditate for more than an hour a day and you should be okay, the psychotic breaks have a higher tendency to happen at meditation 'retreats' where they do like 8 hours a day of meditation.
  - skmurphy 5y ago
    Based on the documented cases of psychotic break and the number of people who meditate, the odds are approximately a million to one in your favor of getting some benefit out of mediation vs. a psychotic break.
- skmurphy 5y ago
  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17848828/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17848828/ documents a single case. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31668156/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31668156/ is a survey of 19 studies that identified 28 cases. Conclusion: "Of the 28 cases reported, 14 patients had certain precipitating factors like insomnia, lack of food intake, history of mental illness, stress, and psychoactive substance use." Given the millions who meditate I think risk is less than a range of ordinary daily activities we engage in that can entail a life changing injury: crossing the street, diving into a pool to swim, and eating peanut butter (aflatoxin risk) to name three. The suggestion to consult a mental health professional, in the absence of any prior psychological issues that were significant, seems to me to be a waste of time and money.

kranke155 5y ago

The author might be more correct than he imagines. I suffer from bipolar disorder, which was “activated” during a heavy meditation period 5 years ago or so. My therapist now advises me to stay away from it. She says that meditation is a form of “self hypnosis” and that I should stay away from daily practice, which is what I had previously.

nradov 5y ago
Is there any evidence that your bipolar disorder would have activated later or not at all if you hadn't meditated?
- kranke155 5y ago
  Not that I’m aware of. But bipolar disorder is (very) poorly understood. Asking for evidence would imply for instance, that we know what bipolar IS, and from my knowledge, I don’t think we do. In order to have evidence that meditation and bipolar interact we would have to know what bipolar affects in our system that causes it. As far as I know we don’t know what causes it/how it works exactly. We have some inklings of what’s involved. What we have is some medications that work with relatively extreme side effects (I am now pre diabetic due to daily Seroquel use) and sort of folk tradition of what to do and not to do - ie bipolar people are advised to stay away from religion for instance. In my experience both the medication and the folk tradition are mostly right actually, as weird as that might sound. It’s not like psychologists are performing huge studies, but they can see patterns in the individual cases when they are studied in bulk - ie religious individuals might have more psychotic episodes etc.
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  Altered states of consciousness are know to trigger psychosis in people who many develop bipolar disorder. It’s relatively easy for me to deliberately trigger psychosis, despite being on antipsychotics. And it is a very bad idea for me to do that. Losing touch with reality isn’t exactly fun. For those who are interested, I’ve written about the four-month-long psychotic break that ended with me being diagnosed bipolar. https://kayode.co/blog/4106/living-with-psychosis/ https://kayode.co/blog/4106/living-with-psychosis/

mettamage 5y ago

When I had a daily body scan practice, I body scanned so much that I didn't emotionally recognize myself in the mirror. Only rationally did I know that it was me. But it felt like I was looking at a strange man. I stopped my daily practice after that. Unfortunately, most benefits also went away. Fortunately, a few of them stayed and for that I'm grateful :)

sooheon 5y ago
Wow cool. Sounds like semantic satiation.

raz32dust 5y ago

Meditation is a tool. I don't understand how anyone can claim that a tool is powerful enough to alter your mind or body can only have positive effects. Of course, any such tool can also alter your mind or body in a negative way, if used incorrectly or if it is not the right tool for you. Same with Yoga, Ayurveda, weed etc. If you think it has the power to change you, you have to accept that it can also change you in a way you did not anticipate or want. I think we should explore all of these, but also be careful in recommending them as "side-effect-free".

h0l0cube 5y ago

"If you can find a worthy meditation teacher - that may be a valid route too, but the lack of professional qualifications makes it difficult to estimate the authority of such a person." Vipassana teachers do at least have some guaranteed qualification, and there are schools right around the world. Despite being a 'silent' practice you can speak to the teacher at the middle and end of the day. https://www.reddit.com/r/vipassana/comments/agaqbo/what_is_the_process_for_becoming_an_assistant/ https://www.reddit.com/r/vipassana/comments/agaqbo/what_is_t...

blockwriter 5y ago

How much of this is caused by the dissociative nature of the world in which we live? A similar phenomenon can occur when writing fiction. When I think back on the time in life when my devoted interest in writing became unlimited, I look to the lack of coherent experience offered by the world outside of my work as the primary culprit for my fugue state.

servytor 5y ago

I think meditation is a way of being nice to our right hemisphere. Our left hemisphere is responsible for speech, and our right hemisphere is mute. Be nice to your right hemisphere, it's you too, and it doesn't like listening to your jibber-jabber. On a semi-related note, I think the movie 'Us' by Jordan Peele is about our split-minds. The protagonists are the left-hemispheres, and the clones are our right hemispheres (they cannot speak). I read a book called "Of Two Minds: The Revolutionary Science of Dual-Brain Psychology" recently and it just reinforces it. So if you break it down that way theoretically, our right-hemispheres live impoverished lives eating cold, raw rabbit and are experimented on, forced to be 'tethered' to us, listening through us to 'pop' music and the 'government' getting angrier and angrier, fantasizing about using scissors on our own corpus callosum...

dorfsmay 5y ago
Yes, some forms of meditation, in particular "open awareness" is said to give more space to the right hemisphere. I highly recommend this video if you want to hear about what life is when the right hemisphere is in control, especially for people who have been doing non-dual practices (lots of parallel experiences IMO): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyyjU8fzEYU

labrador 5y ago

> As a Christian, I use it to hone my focus for prayer and to increase my mindfulness so that I can better sense what God wants for me. Thanks for letting me know because there is a long campaign against Yoga and meditation by some sects of American Christians, who feel they are demonic and meditation is how you let demons in so they take over. These Christians have bizarre ideas of what Yoga and meditation are, treating them like some kind of ritual that gets you in touch with a hidden world. That was my first thought when reading the title, so I'm happy the author owned up to his biases. Saying "Not everyone should meditate" is like saying not everyone should sit quietly, pay attention to their breath and see if they can quiet their thoughts. I am bipolar and meditation along with CBT is how I stay balanced

joshcsimmons 5y ago
I’m glad you found a combo that works for you. I don’t know many Christians that demonize meditation, but I’m sure they’re out there.
- labrador 5y ago
  Out there? I get almost 6 million hits for "meditation demonic" and it really bugs me to having something so helpful to me slurred like this. I suggest you make it clear where you stand on the issue if you're going to write about and sneakily slur it without letting us know you dogmatic positions. edit: https://www.google.com/search?q=meditation+demonic https://www.google.com/search?q=meditation+demonic
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bckr 5y ago
    I think you are reading aggression into GP's comment that wasn't there.
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  I grew up around a lot who did. The best way I can describe it is the spiritual practices around meditation where considered to be incompatible with Christianity.

lawrenceyan 5y ago

I feel like this actually somewhat overinflates the impact that meditation can have, at least on an acute level. There's a marked difference between taking a psychoactive substance like LSD and meditating. Conflating the two is somewhat disingenuous in my opinion. This isn't to say that meditation doesn't work, which I highly recommend for improving focus and de-stressing. You probably actually often end up meditating without even realizing it (e.g. anytime you exercise or listen to music).

cromd 5y ago

For me, meditation started a fundamental shift in how I think about free will, and oddly nobody I've mentioned it to in real life has felt this. I used to feel very in-control of my own mind, but after intentionally sitting and monitoring for thoughts, labeling those thoughts, etc, I became sensitive to how thoughts can really come out of nowhere. You can't predict what you will think next. That strikes a little deeper than a nature/nurture argument where you might say "oh, I just behave a certain way I guess, its in my genes". You start to wonder if you're just being forced to watch the movie that is your own life. I personally feel like my life is a mostly-good movie, and there's reason to predict it will continue that way, but for many people, they're stuck in a bad movie. Some people may feel imprisoned by that. But not feeling in control can also be liberating, depending how you look at it. So I definitely agree that it's a double edged sword, or that YMMV. (Overall, I've enjoyed meditation, and I try to do it about once a week, just to remind myself that there's another mode of thinking that's available to me.)

leobg 5y ago
"You are not responsible for your own thinking." B.F. Skinner https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpDmRc8-pyU&t=793s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpDmRc8-pyU&t=793s
leobg 5y ago
Carl Jung used to compare thoughts with deer in a forest: If you sit quietly and observe, you will notice that they will come and go all on their own.
eurasiantiger 5y ago
There are levels to meditation. Deep down, everything you know to be real is a thought in your head. The joy of being close to someone. Pain and suffering. Ultimately, only NULL is kind of real, and even that representation is too much of something to really be real.
iamacyborg 5y ago
I think you’d enjoy reading Selfie by William Storr. It talks a lot about the left brain observer and various experiments that have observed what you’re talking about.

littlethrowaway 5y ago

No, they certainly shouldn't... for various reasons I did a vipassana 10 day silent retreat back in 2010, and, ended up triggering a bipolar episode[0]. No, there was no history of that in my family, it was a complete surprise. This obviously doesn't happen to everyone doing it, but, while my blog is very much buried now, I still get yearly mails from people saying that the same thing happened to them.. [0]. http://livingvipassana.blogspot.com/2010/02/bipolar-chronicles.html http://livingvipassana.blogspot.com/2010/02/bipolar-chronicl...

nerdponx 5y ago
A 10-day silent retreat is really intense though. A few minutes a day of calming your mind and being still in your body is a lot different. I suspect the author's 20 minutes a day of meditation was a bit more intense than just that. They describe voraciously reading Zen literature and also describe strong personal Christian beliefs. And why would you keep meditating intensely every day after you've started experiencing these symptoms? Wouldn't you want to back off a little at that point? It seems like people "abuse" meditation the same way people abuse hallucinogenic drugs, losing all sense of moderation and going too far with the psychonaut exploration stuff. Maybe also some people are unusually susceptible to these negative effects, and/or are unusually susceptible to being swept up in the spiritual quest fervor. I think this is the author's thesis, and fine, point taken. Those people in particular need to stay away from intense practice and should probably seek out a guide. But I think the majority of people don't have this problem.
deleted 5y ago
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heyoni 5y ago
I quit on day 5. My life started playing itself in my head on repeat and I started to focus on all the pain. I would imagine the universe dying and coming back to life where everything, especially some nasty events would reoccur ad infinitum. I was convinced that the people who were unlucky in this life were actually suffering for eternity and practically lost it. I had a panic attack, and then another and finally talked to the teacher who agreed that I should leave.

TameAntelope 5y ago

For me it's just hard to find an objective, "meditation is objectively good for you and here is what 'meditation' means." Every study I find is either terrible (p hacking) or not directly studying what I'd like.

awill88 5y ago

Meditation: Flex your third eye or it didn’t happen

SMAAART 5y ago

Agree. I mediated an average of 10-15 hours/week for about 10 years, and... it didn't do much for me. What instead did a lot for me was Zen Practice: - going to the temple - going to retreat - Zen reading - Dharma talks - Interview with the Zen Masters - Working at the Temple And then, meeting the inflated ego of some - but not all - the Zen characters in low-level leadership. I still practice Zen, but I do it as a Free-Agent LOL Recently I realized something, not so much achieving Nirvana, more like a DUH-moment: mediation is practice for mindfulness, and at any point in time, no matter where I am, no matter what I do, I can practice mindfulness. Here, I am doing it right now... And don't get me started in all the pseudo-meditation practices and "applications".

jazzyjackson 5y ago
Good insight. Seems to me people who doubt the usefulness of mindfulness are looking too close. It's obvious, the hard part is staying in that DUH moment, we are built to over-think :)

dorfsmay 5y ago

I cannot reach the page, copy on archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20220302210608/https://www.joshcsimmons.com/posts/no-not-everyone-should-meditate https://web.archive.org/web/20220302210608/https://www.joshc...

mtalantikite 5y ago

Coincidentally Mingyur Rinpoche just posted a talk about this as well [1]. I think the most important thing is to find a lineage to practice under, with texts that can support that practice. As much as people want to divorce it from it's historical context, meditation is part of a spiritual practice and communities of people have ways of teaching it in particular ways for a reason. No one should just go sit with zero context and no support. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VzeYD2VY5o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VzeYD2VY5o

borepop 5y ago
>No one should just go sit with zero context and no support. C'mon now. It's not hang-gliding or dropping acid, it's sitting quietly in a room. Not everything in life should be treated as if it's horrendously risky or can't possibly be understood by people exercising common sense. Nor, in my opinion, do the agglomeration of various meditative practices and teachings, no matter how old and "sacred" they may theoretically be, necessarily have anything all that critical to add to the subjective experience of simply sitting quietly. Just like the practices and teachings that accompany many organized religions, a lot of meditative lingo and theories about meditative "progress" is, IMHO, horseshit peddled by people who have decided to make a living selling said horseshit or have defined themselves by their unquestioning acceptance of said horseshit. edit: I should add that I can recognize that, as others discuss in this thread, deep meditation over long periods may trigger various psychological issues for some people. However, it's also true that, for example, eating food can be extremely problematic for some people who have serious eating disorders. That doesn't mean that the mere act of eating, which most people manage to do just fine, somehow needs to be guided by some deep tradition, and I don't believe that sitting in meditation needs such guidance in general either. For most people, meditation is a very gentle, mildly restorative practice that aids mood and focus, not some metaphysically shattering cataclysm.
- joeberon 5y ago
  Even just 20 minutes a day sustained over a long time (e.g. 5 years) is enough to bring life-changing effects. It isn't as benign as it sounds on paper

gcp123 5y ago

dorfsmay 5y ago

Meditation is not just one thing, there are many traditions and many forms, some can lead to strange side effects, in fact, some document those side effects on their map towards their goal. Every culture has forms of meditation, for example some prayers that christian monks do are mindfulness meditation. See David Fontana's "The Meditator's Handbook: A Comprehensive Guide to Eastern and Western Meditation Techniques" for a overview of many forms of meditations across cultures. One thing that is not emphasized enough about meditation is to explore why you want to meditate, what you expect out of it. Different answers to that questions will lead to different practices. My understanding though is that if done in an intensive manner, all forms of meditation converge and have side effects. Finding a good teacher is important, the issue is to how... There is no easy answer, but there is a lot of information online, do your homework about particular practices and what to expect, their risks, etc... and trust your gut instincts. Don't take red flags lightly, talk to friend and family, see a professional if in doubt.

HimalayanGoat 5y ago

I have been meditating for the last 28 years and I meditate 2-3 hours a day, every day, without fail. Still don’t consider myself an expert and I am not a teacher although when pushed, I will sit with someone sincere and meditate with them. If they ask. The question is not whether everyone should meditate or not. The question is whether “I should meditate?” And if the answer to that is yes, try and find someone who knows what they are doing. If they charge you something, that’s fine, they need to make a living. If they charge you so much they make you weak—-run. If they in any way try to come between you and your friends or family—-run. I cannot say if meditation is for everyone because I am not everyone. I am me, and meditation has had a mind-blowing effect on my life. And with it (because of it) I can work (I’m an engineer) and know I am not working, I can do, and know I am not doing, and perhaps best of all, be, without blaming anyone.

Animats 5y ago

It's known to be possible to OD on religion. Why not meditation, too? See the classic "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance".

Existenceblinks 5y ago

Grew up in a continent of many legendary arahant monks (in Thailand), I would say legit lessons have been lost a lot in the past century, to the point that, as of today I don't think I can trust any living monk as a teacher, it's also very hard to find direct descendants of passed away arahant monk. We call this trustworthy monk "Forest monk" who you barely saw/see them, they were/are mostly in deep jungle.

Rastonbury 5y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27890790 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27890790 Discussion on meditation induced psychosis and some a bit more metadiscussion on how it is perceived by pro-meditation groups - victim blaming (eg. you're doing it wrong, this didn't happen to me, this isn't meditation). Seeing some similar comments in here. Some areas of meditation actually acknowledge some sort of "dark night" that practitioners have to push through which caused a mental breakdown in the author. Just because I've done LSD multiple times without psychosis, doesn't mean that LSD can't cause psychosis in some people. I believe it is the same with meditation. As much as some think meditation is beneficial, the effective sample size is 1.

hartator 5y ago
I agree. Meditation made a little “high” on life. Careless to the point of physical injuries. Stress via excess is obviously bad but it’s better guide in life than an utopia nirvana. Like if you look at a colony of beavers. Some are building a dam, others are collecting fruits, kids are playing in the river, some beavers are making love, … . And you have Dave. Dave just stay there 5 hours straight in some sort of yoga position. Just lost in his thoughts. Doesn’t contribute or do anything. Is there any value to be Dave?
- agent008t 5y ago
  Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. One of the points about meditation is about being present, fully experiencing the present moment. By fully experiencing every present moment, you fully experience your life. The opposite would be living perpetually in the future or in the past; not living your life, but continuously preparing to start living it some day. In your example, the beavers being present and building a dam/collecting fruits are in fact the equivalent of skilled meditators. Dave 'lost in his thoughts' is a person unskilled in meditation, the default situation for a lot of people a lot of the time. Consider how many hours a week people tend to spend distracting themselves, 'lost in their thoughts' - time better spent just sitting and doing nothing, getting bored, and then getting an urge to be creative - like when you were a child.

cyberpunk 5y ago

This sort of thing comes up now and again, and all I can really say is: don't harm yourself by doing this incorrectly or without the proper support. If you're meditating intensively like a sesshin or a retreat, you really need some kind of experienced teacher or access to a proper community to help you deal with this kind of stuff. I am a practicing buddhist of the Zen variety, and I certainly couldn't do a 10 day vipassana retreat, even after actual years of practicing staring at a wall. People who expect to be able to do this kind of stuff, with a 'teacher' that got his/her credentials by sending off 500 dollars to deepak chopra without such things happening are misguided at best and being taken advantage of (read: suckers). There are no shortcuts, look after your health, don't overdo it. Don't pay charlatans.

gregfjohnson 5y ago

A helpful concept from Thomas Keating is "the evacuation of the unconscious". The idea is that it is normal to have painful thoughts arise into our consciousness when we enter into meditation. It is common in ordinary life to get into the habit of filling one's life with noise and distraction, in order to keep sources of anxiety or other negative emotions at bay. Meditation lessens the noise and distraction, which has the natural effect of making room for the suppressed thoughts and emotions to pop up. In meditation practice one learns to gently refrain from engaging with emotionally charged material, noticing it with objectivity and detachment, letting it pass by, and returning to a state of calm wordless awareness. In the natural course of events, suppressed fears and anxieties are much less powerful when looked at consciously and rationally. One ends up taking them less seriously, and consequently they tend to lessen in terms of their ability to cause unhappiness. Circling back to the point of the OP, if an attempt at meditation practice starts causing psychotic episodes or anything of that nature, don't do it. That's just common sense.

Flankk 5y ago
This is my experience as well. You gain self awareness and it helps your focus. I haven't experienced ghosts or orbs myself. The author should question his own sanity instead of being concerned with others.
- elbear 5y ago
  Your positive experience doesn't discount others' unpleasant one. Through meditation you can reach deep into the unconscious. The safe approach is to start with practices that get you more in touch with the body, that get you to become more aware of the body. If you are grounded in the body, it's a lot easier to face whatever unpleasant emotions or sensations might come up.