22 ms·

I used Apple AirTags, Tiles and a GPS tracker to watch my husband’s every move

231 points by danso 5y ago

danso 5y ago
Non-paywall: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/11/technology/airtags-gps-surveillance.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DPDm8biPgYCIiG_EPKarskbtopwz2UX5pOKKRqX-Fo0OJeO0hkTQKl5JuYnZBPawMElbWOZEJklZTcQeJ_tjbwcmiyLOo4n-TgtEnaOmD1XqTc1GkmI141vZpmJVu133ZfzqvBEeJ-jtEozu5hUs4hPUoIZyaAtvbsAwwve4nVK0GBtXRlHr1RSjrRntWD6rkfcA00CVjOTnx34WtU-8oLcZpMf_65d0h8DZK41bYBCWVoL5OrBYkyReXXlbZrtr3OrH-c2XE1ZLmIGwntd3txuhXHQnE&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/11/technology/airtags-gps-su...
- ameminator 5y ago
  Btw, thanks for posting these types of links - it's appreciated.
ameminator 5y ago
Look, I usually try to be charitable. However, this article offered no new insight on Apple Airtags. If you don't want to waste your time, allow me to summarize: Woman puts Airtags in a car. Her husband isn't able to find them, even using Apple's "anti-stalk" features. Ergo, Apple needs to do more. I ask - what new insight did this article offer on Airtags? I don't think anyone can conclude either way on the effectiveness of Apple's "safety measures" when it comes to Airtags, from this small anecdote. In my mind, the article buries the Lede on the real discussion - should Apple be doing these measures at all? I find that issue far from settled when this article takes it for granted that not only should Apple take these safety measures, they should do more! The author also seems to be somewhat deceptive - "I sound like a terrible wife, but it's for journalism!" No, it seems like the author played a prank on her husband a while back and used that to neuroticaly follow him, then tried to excuse that behavior by writing this fluff piece. Anyways, I do think there is interesting discussion to be had about Airtags and if/what Apple should be doing to prevent unwanted tracking. However, this article didn't have that discussion or contribute to it in a meaningful way.
- bberenberg 5y ago
  I found the key quote to be "My husband, of course, had agreed to this in principle, but didn’t realize just how many devices I had planted on him. Of the seven trackers, he found only two: a Tile he felt in the breast pocket of his coat and an AirTag in his backpack when he was looking for something else. “It is impossible to find a device that makes no noise and gives no warning,” he said, when I showed him the ones he missed." which I read as "Apple needs to improve, but still drastically better than everything else out there" I am not in the market for AirTags, but if you are completely scatterbrained and this provides you a helpful way to manage your stuff, AirTags seem to be least bad way of doing this.
  - ameminator 5y ago
    I actually tend to agree somewhat with your arguments. However, from the article, I don't think you can reach those conclusions like: "Apple needs to improve, but still drastically better than everything else out there" Where does the article talk about this class of device? Nowhere is a competing product mentioned or compared against. Even a Bluetooth keyfob, used to track keys by emitting a sound (and widely available) could have been used there. I like and agree with what you said, I just don't think the article makes those points, to its detriment.
    - micromacrofoot 5y ago
      Yeah Tile even has the same network tracking effects that extend widely beyond bluetooth range. They've done this for a decade at this point, IIRC.
      - smilespray 5y ago
        Too bad Tile's network tracking is useless in most areas since an app install is required to be part of the network.
        micromacrofoot 5y ago
caffeine 5y ago
The only clear conclusion to be drawn from this is - never marry the author of this piece!
- rjsw 5y ago
  Next week, an article written by the husband on how to get a patio really flat in your garden.
- bhelkey 5y ago
  This is extremely uncharitable. It was buried, but the husband consented to this. > “You can do it,” [The author's husband] said. “But it’ll be boring. We’re in a pandemic. I never go anywhere.”
tinalumfoil 5y ago
I hate this AirTag because besides being pointless (nothing you couldn't do before), it fosters a fear of your neighbor while placing tech companies as your trusted friends. There's no evidence these, "people have freaked out after finding AirTags hidden in their bags and on their cars" are anything other than just stray airtags their owners would very much like back. Just because police (or journalists for that matter) are helping to foster this environment doesn't matter because most police are technologically illiterate and under-trained, and frankly don't know what they're doing. Google using hidden terms to track your every location is your enemy. Your wife leaving an AirTag in the car is not the enemy. You live in a tech dystopia, not a Liam Neeson film. Nobody is following is following you to QuickCheck to kidnap you. Also, AirTags suck. If you drop one in your friends car and drive around trying to find it you're now (1) effectively a stalker (2) won't find your AirTag if they have Android which kind of defeats the purpose, since these things are supposed to want to be found, and (3) correct me if I'm wrong, but even if someone finds your lost item and doesn't immediately send the police on you -- they have no way to contact you to setup a return of your lost item? You have to go through the police? Why would anyone want that? EDIT: Appearantly Apple says you can give it a message if lost of how to contact you, but no way to message without giving additional contact info, and only if you mark it as lost.
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  I disagree. I mean yeah, obviously mistakes are mistakes, but I doubt many people are seriously suspecting anything else than that. However, it seems unusual for people to be carrying around air tags in such a way that they are casually lost. I would guess mistakes aren't THAT common. I would guess domestic abuse is not an uncommon use case of these things. I would also guess that thieves do have an eye for it. You don't need to be Liam Neeson for someone to want to steal your shit. The alert that an air tag is following you mostly negates this. I do agree they don't seem to have much utility on their own
- dschep 5y ago
  > won't find your AirTag if they have Android which kind of defeats the purpose While they're alone in a car, sure. But as soon as they're around folks with iPhones, they're tracked just fine and will never get the notifications the husband in the article got.
etskinner 5y ago
https://archive.is/VGDKw https://archive.is/VGDKw
dangoor 5y ago
Regarding her husband not being able to find the Airtag, Apple's announcement this week of planned improvements[1] also include the ability for recent-model iPhones to be able to do precision tracking of unknown Airtags, just as they can when looking for known Airtags. I've personally come around to the idea that Airtags are a product that shouldn't exist, but at least Apple is making an effort to make these less attractive to stalkers. [1]: https://www.macrumors.com/2022/02/10/airtag-updates-unwanted-tracking/ https://www.macrumors.com/2022/02/10/airtag-updates-unwanted...
rustybolt 5y ago
> All these people received warnings on their iPhones, a feature Apple had built into the AirTag system to help prevent unwanted tracking. So if you don't have an iPhone, enjoy being stalked!
- boopmaster 5y ago
  I stalk iPhone users with Tiles
  - lostlogin 5y ago
    No you don't. Their CEO is here saying that doesn't happen. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30305461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30305461
- jeromegv 5y ago
  What are your plans regarding Tile and GPS trackers that provide no warnings? What was your opinion on it before the current hysteria, did that bother you?
  - rustybolt 5y ago
    I don't know, I never thought about them before the AirTags were widely used, so I never really formed an opinion on them. It just seems strangle that a safety measures is only made available for iPhone users.
bla3 5y ago
One way to look at this is that Apple is democratizing surveillance capitalism. Is that good? Bad? Seems a bit at odds with their pro-privacy marketing though, which might be why they get so much flak for something presumably fairly minor.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gwbas1c 5y ago
I often peek at my wife when she's coming home from work via our car's app. She knows I do this. (When my kids are with me they love watching the car move on the map. I hope she peeks at me when she's with the kids and I have the car.) What made it funny one time was when I was between jobs, and she went to her gynecologist after work. Even though she told me, I forgot, and the map only showed that there was a divorce lawyer's office in the parking lot. I really needed a hug when she walked in the door.
- supergeek 5y ago
  Yeah, it's been very surprising as a Tesla owner to learn that there's no way to opt-out of this tracking in the car. Your location is always relayed to the app, and your only option is to log out of your account in the car, which still relays the data to Tesla for the super paranoid.
  - KyleJune 5y ago
    Only people with access to your Tesla account can access location information. The information is limited, you just see where the vehicle is at live, not a history of where it has been. You can opt out of people being able to check your location via the app. You can just go to the Safety & Security settings on the display in your car and turn off Mobile Access.
- kelnos 5y ago
  > Even though she told me, I forgot, and the map only showed that there was a divorce lawyer's office in the parking lot. I really needed a hug when she walked in the door. A fine example of why pervasive tracking is terrible for relationships. I'm assuming based on your tone that you were calm and collected and didn't fly off the handle with accusations when she got home. But I think there are many people who would give into their insecurities (we all have them) and create a big mess with this sort of knowledge. The "accidental" nature of it just makes it worse. I'm getting a new car soon, and I'm weighing losing the utility of the things in the app vs. my desire not to be tracked. It's really annoying that I have to make that trade off.
kbos87 5y ago
My comment isn’t specific to AirTags, but there’s a much larger conversation that needs to be had about this gray area of stalking capabilities that are now built into many mainstream products. Here’s a pattern I’ve seen play out more than once among friends and family - they share their location willingly and for seemingly benign reasons. It’s helpful to know when you’ll be getting home so I can start dinner! Just in case something happens to you! This is the innocent end of the spectrum; subtle or outright coercion in a controlling relationship is the darker end of the spectrum. How it starts really doesn’t matter, because the truth is that even among otherwise well meaning and well intentioned people, tracking tech can turn them obsessive. Checking in constantly. Wondering and/or quizzing their child, partner or friend about what they were doing at location X. The truth is that most people aren’t immune to being on either end of a situation like this, and the negative outcomes can range from feeling like your everyday movements are under a microscope, to outright abusive behavior more easily taken to the extreme. I don’t claim that there are simple solutions here, but a starting point would be tech companies making it easier to see an audit of how this “innocent” tracking tech is being used on the trackee. For example, I bet my grandpa would think twice about checking in on my cousins location as often as he probably does if he knew that my cousin got a notification every time he checked in.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  > For example, I bet my grandpa would think twice about checking in on my cousins location as often as he probably does if he knew that my cousin got a notification every time he checked in. I think this is a partial solution to keep honest people honest. Like door locks. They keep the temptation at bay for the average person. In abusive relationships it likely wouldn't accomplish much, but notifying might at least create known windows of "escape" when the tracking isn't being actively monitored. Maybe it could even draw someone's attention to abusive situations... if you're out with a friend and her phone "pings" that someone is tracking her 10 times over an hour maybe that's enough for someone to ask "hey is everything ok?"
  - kbos87 5y ago
    Exactly. Being held accountable, and knowing you are being held accountable, could likely stem some amount of bad behavior from the start, and at the very least it makes bad behavior harder to conceal.
fullstackchris 5y ago
Ah, yet another chilling reminder why Black Mirror doesn't have to make any new episodes.
hnlmorg 5y ago
Can someone explain to me (because I cannot work it myself) why everyone is suddenly worried about AirTags yet these kinds of devices have been around for a while (eg the Samsung Galaxy SmartTag was released last year and little was talked about it). And GPS tracking isn't even a new thing either. So why is it most conversations focus on the AirTag? What is it that the AirTag does better/worse/differently to the other options out there?
- xondono 5y ago
  Because there is vibrant a market for content hating on Apple, from forums, to magazines, podcasts,…
- orev 5y ago
  AirTags do sort of change the tracking game. GPS trackers need a relatively large power supply and some kind of data connection. Tile devices are not ubiquitous, and their tracking network is limited to other Tile users. AirTags have a huge advantage in that they use ALL iPhones as part of the tracking network, regardless of whether the iPhone owner has an AirTag themself. This allows them to work over short ranges with a tiny battery as they only need to be close enough to any iPhone for them to be trackable.
- darkwizard42 5y ago
  - Massively improved battery life vs. price - No network connectivity required, simply being near an iPhone creates location accuracy (so instantly a bigger network than any competitor) Probably the two biggest things right there.
- andrewaylett 5y ago
  Apple may not have invented the technology, but they've definitely popularised it. Sounds familiar :P. AirTags are (at least as far as I can tell) maybe a bit easier to use for this purpose than other tech, but that's not quite the point: we didn't have these discussions earlier because people didn't realise they were discussions we needed to have. As another data point, I've met several people who put AirTags on their dogs, and have been disappointed by how poorly they've worked: if the dog runs off and there's no-one with an iPhone around, the AirTag is no help. I have a battery-powered GPS and GPRS tracker on my dog, which works just about anywhere. The AirTag-using dog owners just don't know these things exist.
joe5150 5y ago
"Albert Fox Cahn, the executive director of the Surveillance Technology Oversight Project, thinks the devices are 'too ripe for abuse' to exist." besides the fact that these devices cover a wide spectrum of abuse potential, in what way is this even a tenable position to take? it would be hard enough to get them banned, but if we're talking about actually making them not "exist" anymore, we're talking about confiscating millions and millions of devices. other comments have noted that devices that are much more effective for actual tracking/stalking purposes are cheap and readily available, so I don't understand why AirTags have become the center of this conversation.
nickthegreek 5y ago
When it comes to AirTags, what I care about is my use cases and if this tech is serving me well. I have one in my motorcycle, vespa and backpack. I’ve previously had a bike stolen and never recovered. My mom looses her keys so what often, so I got her one as well. These AirTags provide me with an affordable peace of mind that works better than my Tile ever did.
- mettamage 5y ago
  Same, I was once drunk and I thought my backpack was stolen (it wasn't), because I didn't see it in the bar. It turned out it was in the car that was parked quite far away (15 min.). That saved a whooooollllleeeee load of anxiety. Recently I had to go at a moment's notice and needed my wallet. I couldn't find it, but I airtagged it, so I could. That saved an awful ton of stress, which helped me in keeping my head cool. The moment's notice was really stressful, searching my wallet for 5 to 10 minutes in a time-pressure sensitive task with stakes that are too high for my taste would only have compounded my stress. So in that sense, Apple is helping me preserve my sanity at moments where I could otherwise lose it. There only have been these two situations for it, but IMO that's worth it. I have one on my keys, my wallet and my backpack. And of course, I've used it dozens of times because I'm too lazy to go search them. That's just a convenience feature. The real reason I have them is to reduce stress.
- Unbeliever69 5y ago
  Not much to add to the conversation here except that I love my Airtag in my wallet. So many times I've lost it for days and sometimes weeks on end only to find it in the crack of my couch, behind the seat in the car, under a pile of paper etc. Not anymore! Works like a charm within seconds.
maeln 5y ago
I think it is important to mention that clever people already managed to reverse engineer the Apple "Find My" network/protocol to "make tour own airtag" : https://github.com/seemoo-lab/openhaystack https://github.com/seemoo-lab/openhaystack This notably allow one to easily create a tracker that is silent and potentially smaller than an AirTag. Also easier to hid in a daily object since all you need is basically a nRF51822 and a battery. People who don't own an iPhone, or in general a recent iPhone might be tracked without their knowledge (and, obviously, their consent). The potential of misuse of this kind of tool is so great, we should really regulate against those.
- operator-name 5y ago
  Wow, this is wonderful and scary at the same time. We as a society really are pushing the boundaries of privacy.
shmatt 5y ago
I have to guess some of these "bugs" have to do with the writer and her husband sharing an Apple family. When AirTag just started, my S.O would get alerts when we walked together, that my AirPods are following them. Well yeah, we were doing errands together and the AirPods were in my pocket. These days it doesn't happen, I have to assume having a AirTag from your own defined family "track" you is not considered alert worthy anymore, at least not for the first few hours. Or somehow this bug still randomly pops up, but not right away
parasense 5y ago
I cannot see the content, paywall. Not even with incognito mode. What is the gist of the article?
- AdrianB1 5y ago
  Quote: "I realize I sound like the worst wife ever, so let me explain. It was for journalism.".
bigyellow 5y ago
johnwalkr 5y ago
I understand the negative points about airtags, and one negative point I thought of but never see mentioned is the fact that all iphones are opted in by default to use battery life and data (however little) to operate the findmy network. In fact not many non-tech people realize that a) airtags work globally, not just near your iphone and b) relay data through any nearby iphone and not somehow directly to apple. People are usually blown away when I show them my map with a bunch things But as a forgetful person, I got a pack of four on the day they were released. I used one when shipping an important, time sensitive and expensive item to a client. It was a huge value compared to the usual tracking of packages. I could see exactly when it moved from customs to an airplane, and surprisingly the location even updated in flight! I used and am still using this data, many times to confirm when the item was actually on the way or not, and if related travel and work can be done or not. It's saved thousands of dollars. Another time, I was just about to board a train from Paris to Luxembourg when my iphone notified me that I left my bag behind (at a cafe in the station). I bought 8 more after that and put them in anything of value I have the experience to leave behind somewhere. Bags, ski boots, glasses case, inside the ear cup of my good headphones. Come to think of it, I should put one in my work notebook. Early in my career I had a work trip to sketch all of the dimensions of some heavy machinery so I could automate it (replace actuators and control them with an added PLC). I lost the notebook and had to go back, which was probably a $20k mistake in travel costs + not working on other projects.
- kemayo 5y ago
  It's difficult, because the very thing that make AirTags specifically so useful for legitimate purposes -- the vast network they participate in, and the ease of use -- is also what makes them particularly usable for shady things. I mostly accept it because I'm aware of how trivial it is to get a cheap GPS+SIM tracker that's even better for nefarious purposes, so worrying about AirTags seems a bit overblown.
  - privacyking 5y ago
    G
  - privacyking 5y ago
Osiris 5y ago
My wife and I have Google maps location sharing turned on all the time. It's not stepping because we agreed to it. Last night I got home from a motorcycle ride and the garage door opened as I pulled up because my wife knew I was coming home from a movie and saw I was almost home.
- ei8htyfi5e 5y ago
  We do the same. We realized we were calling each other too often asking where the other is and just decided to let tech solve the problem. Now I can push a button and see how far away from home she is. If I decide to do something sketchy, I can turn off location temporarily and just lie to her about what I was doing if she checks while I was crime-ing. Same as the pretech way. :-P
- SkyPuncher 5y ago
  My wife and I do the same. She often has to drive long distances, at night, in the winter. It's a nice way for me to both see her progress and make sure she isn't stuck somewhere. I also struggle to send a "hey, I'm on my way message". My wife really appreciates being able to check on the map quickly.
  - Osiris 5y ago
    As a motorcycle rider I don't have access to my phone while riding so I actually prefer that she can just check on me. It also makes her feel better when she sees me moving and not stopped.
- operator-name 5y ago
  I'm also quite liberal with sharing my location (via Google maps) when traveling to meet up with friends, but it's always been a huge battery drain. I can't imagine what it's like being on all the time!
  - derimagia 5y ago
    It's not a huge battery drain when I use it at all. Google already has a history of where you go so I don't even know why they would need more battery for it.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
crhulls 5y ago
Hi All, I'm the cofounder and CEO of Life360, which is the relatively new owner of Tile. Stalking hasn't been much of an issue for us, but we are in the process expanding the finding network via our 35 million+ active user base (will require opt-in consent) and we also do offer a location device for kids and pets (Jiobit) that has its own cell connection which is actually meant for finding people in real-time. We have a number of initiatives in the works to help allay concerns. I would be curious if the community here has any suggestions. I know our very existence is controversial - so please be kind - I'm here to listen.
- latchkey 5y ago
  > Stalking hasn't been much of an issue for us How would you know?
  - crhulls 5y ago
    We get I think something on the order of 10,000 customer service tickets a week, and we regularly get subpoenas. We've heard almost every story you can think of. Although we are getting inquiries with this recent press, in terms of actual reports of stalking via our devices it is essentially zero. AirTags has a much broader network than us as of now. Part of why we bought Tile is because we can expand their network. We aren't as big as Apple but we have about 10% of devices so it will get us way up the S curve. So I could see it becoming more of an issue, which is why I'm looking for ideas. One thought would be to rate limit updates - at some frequency you get 90% of the benefit for lost items (since they don't move unless it was lost on say a train) but it dramatically hampers more nefarious use cases. That is just one thought. Or perhaps requiring ID verification and registering each device to a real human.
    - chaircher 5y ago
      What do you mean by "actual stalking report"? ID verification is the way to go IMO. So much stalking isn't like in movies, it's just seemingly normal people seeing how far they can push things and get away with it. And potentially some way to get people to register what it's being used for, as well as a way to register it missing. That would be very useful in a stalking case to cross-reference with how a the alledged stalker claims the tracker ended up in someone's bag/car/etc and could potentially be the break through that gets the conviction
kelnos 5y ago
> I opened an app linked to the most precise tracker in my arsenal, the $30 LandAirSea device. To activate it costs extra, because it needs a cellular plan to ping global positioning satellites. I feel like someone who writes about privacy and surveillance should at least know how GPS works... nothing "pings" a GPS satellite here. GPS signals are constantly being broadcast to the ground for anyone to receive. The cellular plan is so the device can phone home to tell an online service what the device's position is, after determining it from the (free to use, open air) GPS broadcasts.
- _g5q8 5y ago
  does this distinction matter at all, in any way to the point they were trying to get across?
  - kelnos 5y ago
    If someone is going to write an article about tracking and surveillance, to me it reduces their credibility if they don't understand something very basic about how GPS works. It makes me wonder what else they got wrong in the article, and whether or not I should trust their overall conclusions. This might not matter to you, and that's fine; it does matter to me.
    - xeromal 5y ago
      But she's not giving a technical analysis of GPS. She's a wife tracking her husband. For that scenario, her understanding is good enough.
bitminers 5y ago
I didn't find any analysis here of what these companies are doing with all this location data they are collecting. The consumer gets some detail of single devices which they can see on a screen, but the mother ship is collecting a ton of detailed location data from every device that they can run through their advanced computing to refine into predictive products or advertising. This is the bigger story to me.
greatjack613 5y ago
https://webreader.app/?url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/11/technology/airtags-gps-surveillance.html https://webreader.app/?url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/1...
throw7 5y ago
tl;dr the baby was fine.
coding123 5y ago
So they can more than double detection if Apple opens a web service that lets you find out if you're recent coordinates were also tracked by giving such a service to Google. So instead of having your phone ping Apple, Google could do it for you and find out if you're being tracked.
andrewstuart 5y ago
Whenever I open the front door my cat tries to zip out and run away. He doesn't go far, and generally stops running from me after a few meters and gives up. But I am concerned what might happen if he's away a few hours before I discover. So I put an airtag on his collar. It's already paid off once when I found the front door open I just looked up where he was and went and got him.
alistairSH 5y ago
And, if I'm reading the documentation correctly, for the only use case I personally care about (theft recovery for expensive bicycles), it's useless because the thief can utilize the anti-stalk features to locate/disable the tag?
- Zigurd 5y ago
  It would make a good decoy: "Ah! I found the airtag under the saddle!"
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
McHankHenry 5y ago
Apple have reluctantly been in the surveilance industry for years, due the governments far-reaching and uncontestable court orders. Now it seems they've willingly jumped in with both feet.
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  I often wonder with USA whether TLA's have a bounty on certain tech, like implement a tracker we can piggyback on and we'll provide a $X00M bonus, implement an email parsing service, implement a street-facing webcam system, implement a household based microphone array with remote access, etc.. They'd be state level equivalents to a parent slipping a tracker in a kids bag, or reading their messages, or whatever.
pyman 5y ago
Paywall!!
gnicholas 5y ago
> ... but I think I’ll leave the AirTag in it. It will make it easier to find the car in a vast parking lot. It sounds like the author has an iPhone, and it has a feature that will show you where you parked your car if you connect it to your car via BT. It basically takes note of the location where you disconnected from the car and stores it in Maps as Parked Car. Leaving a tracker in your car is not a bad idea if you're worried about theft, though.
ubermonkey 5y ago
OH, I remember this person's story about setting up way-too-much smart tech in their house. Her whole shtick is this kind of IT HAPPENED TO ME weird quasi-alarmist immersive reporting, and I imagine it's incredibly tedious in real life. It definitely is on the page. I closed the tab once I realized it was the same person.
arthurofbabylon 5y ago
This may sound nuts - but I don’t want certain kinds of security. For example, I don’t want my home in specific to be safe – I want my society to be safe. So I’m less interested in cameras/locks and more interested in social programs, education, and access to resources. As another example familiar to those who travel in wild places, there’s not much value in trying to avoid getting robbed. Mitigate the losses with pragmatic decisions but by all means enjoy a great adventure. (Preventing violence is a different equation.) Being robbed might be scary - but there are much more important things worthy of attention in some of these places. Last example, closer to privacy -> One of the healthiest opportunities for humans is to get early morning light (it establishes endocrine function, literally curing depression) - for most people sacrificing this is not worth increased privacy in the form of closed blinds. Calculations of privacy and security are rarely intuitive. They inherently touch numerous webs of interconnection. And folks who use AirTags will find the same challenges and realize similar lessons.
- maccard 5y ago
  > for most people sacrificing this is not worth increased privacy in the form of closed blinds. There is an assumption here that people wake after sunrise and that people go to bed after sunset. I live in Scotland where during winter it's dark at 4:30 pm and bright at 9am, and during summer it's mostly dark by midnight (we've technically had sundown but it doesn't dark dark) and bright at 4am. I sure as hell am not going to be a healthier person for being awake at 4am after having gone to bed at midnight
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
aeturnum 5y ago
I've been aggressively sharing my location with anyone who will have it[1] because I think it's important that we grapple with how many people might be aware of our location at this point. Our locations are all shared with many people we will never meet, often in ways that are indirect. The social experience of being able to see a 'location'[2] at any time is a pretty new idea (relatively) and I think the only way we (collectively) are going to form an opinion about how we would like engage or block it is to engage. What I mean by 'engage' is not to use location sharing (tho I do), but to hypothesize what each one of us thinks is the right approach to location monitoring (embrace, block, etc) and try to implement it. It's the only way we'll develop informed opinions about what should be different and how to improve the system we are building. [1] If you reply to this with a Gmail address (or message me on twitter or email me: aeturnum@gmail.com) I'll share my location with you. Feel free to share back, or don't! I am not picky. [2] The idea of a location is super complicated. It involves coordinate systems and maps and abstraction. So I am loath to just talk about it like it's straightforward.
- 3-cheese-sundae 5y ago
  Can you elaborate a bit on how sharing your location to others indiscriminately will increase awareness of involuntary location tracking?
  - aeturnum 5y ago
    Sure! So it's easy to think about all of the things someone could do to you if they have your location: hurt you, delay you, rob you, etc. But it's also very mundanely easy to get the location of a human. I'm sure, if you look outside your window, you can probably find one now. So the question is how do we draw the lines? When does some random person on the internet knowing my location go from being amusing to being creepy? The only way I've found is to share with people and see how that feels. Because I have the opportunity to learn when someone new can see where I am and reflect on how I feel about that. Or, when I am going somewhere, it reminds me that people can see where I am going. The idea is to increase the opportunities to think about it and, potentially, to find fellow interested people to think about it with. But, again, my *whole point* is that people can see where all of us are going and we have no idea who. None of us can say exactly how many people are aware of our locations. So the best we can do is reach out and choose to engage (or block) in the location interfaces we have access to and reflect on how those actions impact us and our lives. What do you get from telling Google where you are? What do you get from telling your mom where you are? What do you get from telling a stranger where you are? Are the three related and how?
brian_herman 5y ago
I just bought one to put in my car incase it gets car jacked.
Vixel 5y ago
Cool article. Either I'm getting old or the NYT is hiring some great new writers. I have really liked a lot of the reporters from the last year or so.

231 points by danso 5y ago

Non-paywall: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/11/technology/airtags-gps-surveillance.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWka3DPDm8biPgYCIiG_EPKarskbtopwz2UX5pOKKRqX-Fo0OJeO0hkTQKl5JuYnZBPawMElbWOZEJklZTcQeJ_tjbwcmiyLOo4n-TgtEnaOmD1XqTc1GkmI141vZpmJVu133ZfzqvBEeJ-jtEozu5hUs4hPUoIZyaAtvbsAwwve4nVK0GBtXRlHr1RSjrRntWD6rkfcA00CVjOTnx34WtU-8oLcZpMf_65d0h8DZK41bYBCWVoL5OrBYkyReXXlbZrtr3OrH-c2XE1ZLmIGwntd3txuhXHQnE&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/11/technology/airtags-gps-su...

ameminator 5y ago
Btw, thanks for posting these types of links - it's appreciated.

ameminator 5y ago

Look, I usually try to be charitable. However, this article offered no new insight on Apple Airtags. If you don't want to waste your time, allow me to summarize: Woman puts Airtags in a car. Her husband isn't able to find them, even using Apple's "anti-stalk" features. Ergo, Apple needs to do more. I ask - what new insight did this article offer on Airtags? I don't think anyone can conclude either way on the effectiveness of Apple's "safety measures" when it comes to Airtags, from this small anecdote. In my mind, the article buries the Lede on the real discussion - should Apple be doing these measures at all? I find that issue far from settled when this article takes it for granted that not only should Apple take these safety measures, they should do more! The author also seems to be somewhat deceptive - "I sound like a terrible wife, but it's for journalism!" No, it seems like the author played a prank on her husband a while back and used that to neuroticaly follow him, then tried to excuse that behavior by writing this fluff piece. Anyways, I do think there is interesting discussion to be had about Airtags and if/what Apple should be doing to prevent unwanted tracking. However, this article didn't have that discussion or contribute to it in a meaningful way.

bberenberg 5y ago
I found the key quote to be "My husband, of course, had agreed to this in principle, but didn’t realize just how many devices I had planted on him. Of the seven trackers, he found only two: a Tile he felt in the breast pocket of his coat and an AirTag in his backpack when he was looking for something else. “It is impossible to find a device that makes no noise and gives no warning,” he said, when I showed him the ones he missed." which I read as "Apple needs to improve, but still drastically better than everything else out there" I am not in the market for AirTags, but if you are completely scatterbrained and this provides you a helpful way to manage your stuff, AirTags seem to be least bad way of doing this.
- ameminator 5y ago
  I actually tend to agree somewhat with your arguments. However, from the article, I don't think you can reach those conclusions like: "Apple needs to improve, but still drastically better than everything else out there" Where does the article talk about this class of device? Nowhere is a competing product mentioned or compared against. Even a Bluetooth keyfob, used to track keys by emitting a sound (and widely available) could have been used there. I like and agree with what you said, I just don't think the article makes those points, to its detriment.
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    Yeah Tile even has the same network tracking effects that extend widely beyond bluetooth range. They've done this for a decade at this point, IIRC.
    - smilespray 5y ago
      Too bad Tile's network tracking is useless in most areas since an app install is required to be part of the network.
      - micromacrofoot 5y ago

caffeine 5y ago

The only clear conclusion to be drawn from this is - never marry the author of this piece!

rjsw 5y ago
Next week, an article written by the husband on how to get a patio really flat in your garden.
bhelkey 5y ago
This is extremely uncharitable. It was buried, but the husband consented to this. > “You can do it,” [The author's husband] said. “But it’ll be boring. We’re in a pandemic. I never go anywhere.”

tinalumfoil 5y ago

I hate this AirTag because besides being pointless (nothing you couldn't do before), it fosters a fear of your neighbor while placing tech companies as your trusted friends. There's no evidence these, "people have freaked out after finding AirTags hidden in their bags and on their cars" are anything other than just stray airtags their owners would very much like back. Just because police (or journalists for that matter) are helping to foster this environment doesn't matter because most police are technologically illiterate and under-trained, and frankly don't know what they're doing. Google using hidden terms to track your every location is your enemy. Your wife leaving an AirTag in the car is not the enemy. You live in a tech dystopia, not a Liam Neeson film. Nobody is following is following you to QuickCheck to kidnap you. Also, AirTags suck. If you drop one in your friends car and drive around trying to find it you're now (1) effectively a stalker (2) won't find your AirTag if they have Android which kind of defeats the purpose, since these things are supposed to want to be found, and (3) correct me if I'm wrong, but even if someone finds your lost item and doesn't immediately send the police on you -- they have no way to contact you to setup a return of your lost item? You have to go through the police? Why would anyone want that? EDIT: Appearantly Apple says you can give it a message if lost of how to contact you, but no way to message without giving additional contact info, and only if you mark it as lost.

spywaregorilla 5y ago
I disagree. I mean yeah, obviously mistakes are mistakes, but I doubt many people are seriously suspecting anything else than that. However, it seems unusual for people to be carrying around air tags in such a way that they are casually lost. I would guess mistakes aren't THAT common. I would guess domestic abuse is not an uncommon use case of these things. I would also guess that thieves do have an eye for it. You don't need to be Liam Neeson for someone to want to steal your shit. The alert that an air tag is following you mostly negates this. I do agree they don't seem to have much utility on their own
dschep 5y ago
> won't find your AirTag if they have Android which kind of defeats the purpose While they're alone in a car, sure. But as soon as they're around folks with iPhones, they're tracked just fine and will never get the notifications the husband in the article got.

etskinner 5y ago

https://archive.is/VGDKw https://archive.is/VGDKw

dangoor 5y ago

Regarding her husband not being able to find the Airtag, Apple's announcement this week of planned improvements[1] also include the ability for recent-model iPhones to be able to do precision tracking of unknown Airtags, just as they can when looking for known Airtags. I've personally come around to the idea that Airtags are a product that shouldn't exist, but at least Apple is making an effort to make these less attractive to stalkers. [1]: https://www.macrumors.com/2022/02/10/airtag-updates-unwanted-tracking/ https://www.macrumors.com/2022/02/10/airtag-updates-unwanted...

rustybolt 5y ago

> All these people received warnings on their iPhones, a feature Apple had built into the AirTag system to help prevent unwanted tracking. So if you don't have an iPhone, enjoy being stalked!

boopmaster 5y ago
I stalk iPhone users with Tiles
- lostlogin 5y ago
  No you don't. Their CEO is here saying that doesn't happen. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30305461 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30305461
jeromegv 5y ago
What are your plans regarding Tile and GPS trackers that provide no warnings? What was your opinion on it before the current hysteria, did that bother you?
- rustybolt 5y ago
  I don't know, I never thought about them before the AirTags were widely used, so I never really formed an opinion on them. It just seems strangle that a safety measures is only made available for iPhone users.

bla3 5y ago

One way to look at this is that Apple is democratizing surveillance capitalism. Is that good? Bad? Seems a bit at odds with their pro-privacy marketing though, which might be why they get so much flak for something presumably fairly minor.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

gwbas1c 5y ago

I often peek at my wife when she's coming home from work via our car's app. She knows I do this. (When my kids are with me they love watching the car move on the map. I hope she peeks at me when she's with the kids and I have the car.) What made it funny one time was when I was between jobs, and she went to her gynecologist after work. Even though she told me, I forgot, and the map only showed that there was a divorce lawyer's office in the parking lot. I really needed a hug when she walked in the door.

supergeek 5y ago
Yeah, it's been very surprising as a Tesla owner to learn that there's no way to opt-out of this tracking in the car. Your location is always relayed to the app, and your only option is to log out of your account in the car, which still relays the data to Tesla for the super paranoid.
- KyleJune 5y ago
  Only people with access to your Tesla account can access location information. The information is limited, you just see where the vehicle is at live, not a history of where it has been. You can opt out of people being able to check your location via the app. You can just go to the Safety & Security settings on the display in your car and turn off Mobile Access.
kelnos 5y ago
> Even though she told me, I forgot, and the map only showed that there was a divorce lawyer's office in the parking lot. I really needed a hug when she walked in the door. A fine example of why pervasive tracking is terrible for relationships. I'm assuming based on your tone that you were calm and collected and didn't fly off the handle with accusations when she got home. But I think there are many people who would give into their insecurities (we all have them) and create a big mess with this sort of knowledge. The "accidental" nature of it just makes it worse. I'm getting a new car soon, and I'm weighing losing the utility of the things in the app vs. my desire not to be tracked. It's really annoying that I have to make that trade off.

kbos87 5y ago

My comment isn’t specific to AirTags, but there’s a much larger conversation that needs to be had about this gray area of stalking capabilities that are now built into many mainstream products. Here’s a pattern I’ve seen play out more than once among friends and family - they share their location willingly and for seemingly benign reasons. It’s helpful to know when you’ll be getting home so I can start dinner! Just in case something happens to you! This is the innocent end of the spectrum; subtle or outright coercion in a controlling relationship is the darker end of the spectrum. How it starts really doesn’t matter, because the truth is that even among otherwise well meaning and well intentioned people, tracking tech can turn them obsessive. Checking in constantly. Wondering and/or quizzing their child, partner or friend about what they were doing at location X. The truth is that most people aren’t immune to being on either end of a situation like this, and the negative outcomes can range from feeling like your everyday movements are under a microscope, to outright abusive behavior more easily taken to the extreme. I don’t claim that there are simple solutions here, but a starting point would be tech companies making it easier to see an audit of how this “innocent” tracking tech is being used on the trackee. For example, I bet my grandpa would think twice about checking in on my cousins location as often as he probably does if he knew that my cousin got a notification every time he checked in.

micromacrofoot 5y ago
> For example, I bet my grandpa would think twice about checking in on my cousins location as often as he probably does if he knew that my cousin got a notification every time he checked in. I think this is a partial solution to keep honest people honest. Like door locks. They keep the temptation at bay for the average person. In abusive relationships it likely wouldn't accomplish much, but notifying might at least create known windows of "escape" when the tracking isn't being actively monitored. Maybe it could even draw someone's attention to abusive situations... if you're out with a friend and her phone "pings" that someone is tracking her 10 times over an hour maybe that's enough for someone to ask "hey is everything ok?"
- kbos87 5y ago
  Exactly. Being held accountable, and knowing you are being held accountable, could likely stem some amount of bad behavior from the start, and at the very least it makes bad behavior harder to conceal.

fullstackchris 5y ago

Ah, yet another chilling reminder why Black Mirror doesn't have to make any new episodes.

hnlmorg 5y ago

Can someone explain to me (because I cannot work it myself) why everyone is suddenly worried about AirTags yet these kinds of devices have been around for a while (eg the Samsung Galaxy SmartTag was released last year and little was talked about it). And GPS tracking isn't even a new thing either. So why is it most conversations focus on the AirTag? What is it that the AirTag does better/worse/differently to the other options out there?

xondono 5y ago
Because there is vibrant a market for content hating on Apple, from forums, to magazines, podcasts,…
orev 5y ago
AirTags do sort of change the tracking game. GPS trackers need a relatively large power supply and some kind of data connection. Tile devices are not ubiquitous, and their tracking network is limited to other Tile users. AirTags have a huge advantage in that they use ALL iPhones as part of the tracking network, regardless of whether the iPhone owner has an AirTag themself. This allows them to work over short ranges with a tiny battery as they only need to be close enough to any iPhone for them to be trackable.
darkwizard42 5y ago
- Massively improved battery life vs. price - No network connectivity required, simply being near an iPhone creates location accuracy (so instantly a bigger network than any competitor) Probably the two biggest things right there.
andrewaylett 5y ago
Apple may not have invented the technology, but they've definitely popularised it. Sounds familiar :P. AirTags are (at least as far as I can tell) maybe a bit easier to use for this purpose than other tech, but that's not quite the point: we didn't have these discussions earlier because people didn't realise they were discussions we needed to have. As another data point, I've met several people who put AirTags on their dogs, and have been disappointed by how poorly they've worked: if the dog runs off and there's no-one with an iPhone around, the AirTag is no help. I have a battery-powered GPS and GPRS tracker on my dog, which works just about anywhere. The AirTag-using dog owners just don't know these things exist.

joe5150 5y ago

"Albert Fox Cahn, the executive director of the Surveillance Technology Oversight Project, thinks the devices are 'too ripe for abuse' to exist." besides the fact that these devices cover a wide spectrum of abuse potential, in what way is this even a tenable position to take? it would be hard enough to get them banned, but if we're talking about actually making them not "exist" anymore, we're talking about confiscating millions and millions of devices. other comments have noted that devices that are much more effective for actual tracking/stalking purposes are cheap and readily available, so I don't understand why AirTags have become the center of this conversation.

nickthegreek 5y ago

When it comes to AirTags, what I care about is my use cases and if this tech is serving me well. I have one in my motorcycle, vespa and backpack. I’ve previously had a bike stolen and never recovered. My mom looses her keys so what often, so I got her one as well. These AirTags provide me with an affordable peace of mind that works better than my Tile ever did.

mettamage 5y ago
Same, I was once drunk and I thought my backpack was stolen (it wasn't), because I didn't see it in the bar. It turned out it was in the car that was parked quite far away (15 min.). That saved a whooooollllleeeee load of anxiety. Recently I had to go at a moment's notice and needed my wallet. I couldn't find it, but I airtagged it, so I could. That saved an awful ton of stress, which helped me in keeping my head cool. The moment's notice was really stressful, searching my wallet for 5 to 10 minutes in a time-pressure sensitive task with stakes that are too high for my taste would only have compounded my stress. So in that sense, Apple is helping me preserve my sanity at moments where I could otherwise lose it. There only have been these two situations for it, but IMO that's worth it. I have one on my keys, my wallet and my backpack. And of course, I've used it dozens of times because I'm too lazy to go search them. That's just a convenience feature. The real reason I have them is to reduce stress.
Unbeliever69 5y ago
Not much to add to the conversation here except that I love my Airtag in my wallet. So many times I've lost it for days and sometimes weeks on end only to find it in the crack of my couch, behind the seat in the car, under a pile of paper etc. Not anymore! Works like a charm within seconds.

maeln 5y ago

I think it is important to mention that clever people already managed to reverse engineer the Apple "Find My" network/protocol to "make tour own airtag" : https://github.com/seemoo-lab/openhaystack https://github.com/seemoo-lab/openhaystack This notably allow one to easily create a tracker that is silent and potentially smaller than an AirTag. Also easier to hid in a daily object since all you need is basically a nRF51822 and a battery. People who don't own an iPhone, or in general a recent iPhone might be tracked without their knowledge (and, obviously, their consent). The potential of misuse of this kind of tool is so great, we should really regulate against those.

operator-name 5y ago
Wow, this is wonderful and scary at the same time. We as a society really are pushing the boundaries of privacy.

shmatt 5y ago

I have to guess some of these "bugs" have to do with the writer and her husband sharing an Apple family. When AirTag just started, my S.O would get alerts when we walked together, that my AirPods are following them. Well yeah, we were doing errands together and the AirPods were in my pocket. These days it doesn't happen, I have to assume having a AirTag from your own defined family "track" you is not considered alert worthy anymore, at least not for the first few hours. Or somehow this bug still randomly pops up, but not right away

parasense 5y ago

I cannot see the content, paywall. Not even with incognito mode. What is the gist of the article?

AdrianB1 5y ago
Quote: "I realize I sound like the worst wife ever, so let me explain. It was for journalism.".

bigyellow 5y ago

johnwalkr 5y ago

I understand the negative points about airtags, and one negative point I thought of but never see mentioned is the fact that all iphones are opted in by default to use battery life and data (however little) to operate the findmy network. In fact not many non-tech people realize that a) airtags work globally, not just near your iphone and b) relay data through any nearby iphone and not somehow directly to apple. People are usually blown away when I show them my map with a bunch things But as a forgetful person, I got a pack of four on the day they were released. I used one when shipping an important, time sensitive and expensive item to a client. It was a huge value compared to the usual tracking of packages. I could see exactly when it moved from customs to an airplane, and surprisingly the location even updated in flight! I used and am still using this data, many times to confirm when the item was actually on the way or not, and if related travel and work can be done or not. It's saved thousands of dollars. Another time, I was just about to board a train from Paris to Luxembourg when my iphone notified me that I left my bag behind (at a cafe in the station). I bought 8 more after that and put them in anything of value I have the experience to leave behind somewhere. Bags, ski boots, glasses case, inside the ear cup of my good headphones. Come to think of it, I should put one in my work notebook. Early in my career I had a work trip to sketch all of the dimensions of some heavy machinery so I could automate it (replace actuators and control them with an added PLC). I lost the notebook and had to go back, which was probably a $20k mistake in travel costs + not working on other projects.

kemayo 5y ago
It's difficult, because the very thing that make AirTags specifically so useful for legitimate purposes -- the vast network they participate in, and the ease of use -- is also what makes them particularly usable for shady things. I mostly accept it because I'm aware of how trivial it is to get a cheap GPS+SIM tracker that's even better for nefarious purposes, so worrying about AirTags seems a bit overblown.
- privacyking 5y ago
  G
- privacyking 5y ago

Osiris 5y ago

My wife and I have Google maps location sharing turned on all the time. It's not stepping because we agreed to it. Last night I got home from a motorcycle ride and the garage door opened as I pulled up because my wife knew I was coming home from a movie and saw I was almost home.

ei8htyfi5e 5y ago
We do the same. We realized we were calling each other too often asking where the other is and just decided to let tech solve the problem. Now I can push a button and see how far away from home she is. If I decide to do something sketchy, I can turn off location temporarily and just lie to her about what I was doing if she checks while I was crime-ing. Same as the pretech way. :-P
SkyPuncher 5y ago
My wife and I do the same. She often has to drive long distances, at night, in the winter. It's a nice way for me to both see her progress and make sure she isn't stuck somewhere. I also struggle to send a "hey, I'm on my way message". My wife really appreciates being able to check on the map quickly.
- Osiris 5y ago
  As a motorcycle rider I don't have access to my phone while riding so I actually prefer that she can just check on me. It also makes her feel better when she sees me moving and not stopped.
operator-name 5y ago
I'm also quite liberal with sharing my location (via Google maps) when traveling to meet up with friends, but it's always been a huge battery drain. I can't imagine what it's like being on all the time!
- derimagia 5y ago
  It's not a huge battery drain when I use it at all. Google already has a history of where you go so I don't even know why they would need more battery for it.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

crhulls 5y ago

Hi All, I'm the cofounder and CEO of Life360, which is the relatively new owner of Tile. Stalking hasn't been much of an issue for us, but we are in the process expanding the finding network via our 35 million+ active user base (will require opt-in consent) and we also do offer a location device for kids and pets (Jiobit) that has its own cell connection which is actually meant for finding people in real-time. We have a number of initiatives in the works to help allay concerns. I would be curious if the community here has any suggestions. I know our very existence is controversial - so please be kind - I'm here to listen.

latchkey 5y ago
> Stalking hasn't been much of an issue for us How would you know?
- crhulls 5y ago
  We get I think something on the order of 10,000 customer service tickets a week, and we regularly get subpoenas. We've heard almost every story you can think of. Although we are getting inquiries with this recent press, in terms of actual reports of stalking via our devices it is essentially zero. AirTags has a much broader network than us as of now. Part of why we bought Tile is because we can expand their network. We aren't as big as Apple but we have about 10% of devices so it will get us way up the S curve. So I could see it becoming more of an issue, which is why I'm looking for ideas. One thought would be to rate limit updates - at some frequency you get 90% of the benefit for lost items (since they don't move unless it was lost on say a train) but it dramatically hampers more nefarious use cases. That is just one thought. Or perhaps requiring ID verification and registering each device to a real human.
  - chaircher 5y ago
    What do you mean by "actual stalking report"? ID verification is the way to go IMO. So much stalking isn't like in movies, it's just seemingly normal people seeing how far they can push things and get away with it. And potentially some way to get people to register what it's being used for, as well as a way to register it missing. That would be very useful in a stalking case to cross-reference with how a the alledged stalker claims the tracker ended up in someone's bag/car/etc and could potentially be the break through that gets the conviction

kelnos 5y ago

> I opened an app linked to the most precise tracker in my arsenal, the $30 LandAirSea device. To activate it costs extra, because it needs a cellular plan to ping global positioning satellites. I feel like someone who writes about privacy and surveillance should at least know how GPS works... nothing "pings" a GPS satellite here. GPS signals are constantly being broadcast to the ground for anyone to receive. The cellular plan is so the device can phone home to tell an online service what the device's position is, after determining it from the (free to use, open air) GPS broadcasts.

_g5q8 5y ago
does this distinction matter at all, in any way to the point they were trying to get across?
- kelnos 5y ago
  If someone is going to write an article about tracking and surveillance, to me it reduces their credibility if they don't understand something very basic about how GPS works. It makes me wonder what else they got wrong in the article, and whether or not I should trust their overall conclusions. This might not matter to you, and that's fine; it does matter to me.
  - xeromal 5y ago
    But she's not giving a technical analysis of GPS. She's a wife tracking her husband. For that scenario, her understanding is good enough.

bitminers 5y ago

I didn't find any analysis here of what these companies are doing with all this location data they are collecting. The consumer gets some detail of single devices which they can see on a screen, but the mother ship is collecting a ton of detailed location data from every device that they can run through their advanced computing to refine into predictive products or advertising. This is the bigger story to me.

greatjack613 5y ago

https://webreader.app/?url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/11/technology/airtags-gps-surveillance.html https://webreader.app/?url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/1...

throw7 5y ago

tl;dr the baby was fine.

coding123 5y ago

So they can more than double detection if Apple opens a web service that lets you find out if you're recent coordinates were also tracked by giving such a service to Google. So instead of having your phone ping Apple, Google could do it for you and find out if you're being tracked.

andrewstuart 5y ago

Whenever I open the front door my cat tries to zip out and run away. He doesn't go far, and generally stops running from me after a few meters and gives up. But I am concerned what might happen if he's away a few hours before I discover. So I put an airtag on his collar. It's already paid off once when I found the front door open I just looked up where he was and went and got him.

alistairSH 5y ago

And, if I'm reading the documentation correctly, for the only use case I personally care about (theft recovery for expensive bicycles), it's useless because the thief can utilize the anti-stalk features to locate/disable the tag?

Zigurd 5y ago
It would make a good decoy: "Ah! I found the airtag under the saddle!"

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

McHankHenry 5y ago

Apple have reluctantly been in the surveilance industry for years, due the governments far-reaching and uncontestable court orders. Now it seems they've willingly jumped in with both feet.

pbhjpbhj 5y ago
I often wonder with USA whether TLA's have a bounty on certain tech, like implement a tracker we can piggyback on and we'll provide a $X00M bonus, implement an email parsing service, implement a street-facing webcam system, implement a household based microphone array with remote access, etc.. They'd be state level equivalents to a parent slipping a tracker in a kids bag, or reading their messages, or whatever.

pyman 5y ago

Paywall!!

gnicholas 5y ago

> ... but I think I’ll leave the AirTag in it. It will make it easier to find the car in a vast parking lot. It sounds like the author has an iPhone, and it has a feature that will show you where you parked your car if you connect it to your car via BT. It basically takes note of the location where you disconnected from the car and stores it in Maps as Parked Car. Leaving a tracker in your car is not a bad idea if you're worried about theft, though.

ubermonkey 5y ago

OH, I remember this person's story about setting up way-too-much smart tech in their house. Her whole shtick is this kind of IT HAPPENED TO ME weird quasi-alarmist immersive reporting, and I imagine it's incredibly tedious in real life. It definitely is on the page. I closed the tab once I realized it was the same person.

arthurofbabylon 5y ago

This may sound nuts - but I don’t want certain kinds of security. For example, I don’t want my home in specific to be safe – I want my society to be safe. So I’m less interested in cameras/locks and more interested in social programs, education, and access to resources. As another example familiar to those who travel in wild places, there’s not much value in trying to avoid getting robbed. Mitigate the losses with pragmatic decisions but by all means enjoy a great adventure. (Preventing violence is a different equation.) Being robbed might be scary - but there are much more important things worthy of attention in some of these places. Last example, closer to privacy -> One of the healthiest opportunities for humans is to get early morning light (it establishes endocrine function, literally curing depression) - for most people sacrificing this is not worth increased privacy in the form of closed blinds. Calculations of privacy and security are rarely intuitive. They inherently touch numerous webs of interconnection. And folks who use AirTags will find the same challenges and realize similar lessons.

maccard 5y ago
> for most people sacrificing this is not worth increased privacy in the form of closed blinds. There is an assumption here that people wake after sunrise and that people go to bed after sunset. I live in Scotland where during winter it's dark at 4:30 pm and bright at 9am, and during summer it's mostly dark by midnight (we've technically had sundown but it doesn't dark dark) and bright at 4am. I sure as hell am not going to be a healthier person for being awake at 4am after having gone to bed at midnight

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

aeturnum 5y ago

I've been aggressively sharing my location with anyone who will have it[1] because I think it's important that we grapple with how many people might be aware of our location at this point. Our locations are all shared with many people we will never meet, often in ways that are indirect. The social experience of being able to see a 'location'[2] at any time is a pretty new idea (relatively) and I think the only way we (collectively) are going to form an opinion about how we would like engage or block it is to engage. What I mean by 'engage' is not to use location sharing (tho I do), but to hypothesize what each one of us thinks is the right approach to location monitoring (embrace, block, etc) and try to implement it. It's the only way we'll develop informed opinions about what should be different and how to improve the system we are building. [1] If you reply to this with a Gmail address (or message me on twitter or email me: aeturnum@gmail.com) I'll share my location with you. Feel free to share back, or don't! I am not picky. [2] The idea of a location is super complicated. It involves coordinate systems and maps and abstraction. So I am loath to just talk about it like it's straightforward.

3-cheese-sundae 5y ago
Can you elaborate a bit on how sharing your location to others indiscriminately will increase awareness of involuntary location tracking?
- aeturnum 5y ago
  Sure! So it's easy to think about all of the things someone could do to you if they have your location: hurt you, delay you, rob you, etc. But it's also very mundanely easy to get the location of a human. I'm sure, if you look outside your window, you can probably find one now. So the question is how do we draw the lines? When does some random person on the internet knowing my location go from being amusing to being creepy? The only way I've found is to share with people and see how that feels. Because I have the opportunity to learn when someone new can see where I am and reflect on how I feel about that. Or, when I am going somewhere, it reminds me that people can see where I am going. The idea is to increase the opportunities to think about it and, potentially, to find fellow interested people to think about it with. But, again, my *whole point* is that people can see where all of us are going and we have no idea who. None of us can say exactly how many people are aware of our locations. So the best we can do is reach out and choose to engage (or block) in the location interfaces we have access to and reflect on how those actions impact us and our lives. What do you get from telling Google where you are? What do you get from telling your mom where you are? What do you get from telling a stranger where you are? Are the three related and how?

brian_herman 5y ago

I just bought one to put in my car incase it gets car jacked.

Vixel 5y ago

Cool article. Either I'm getting old or the NYT is hiring some great new writers. I have really liked a lot of the reporters from the last year or so.