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Looks like a Miele. That menu can be exited (the image where it says "Software Update", the tiny bit on the right... that's a scroll bar of multiple options inc

• stragies 5y ago
  Yeah, that tweet is click-bait meant to generate outrage clicks and follows. Most of the submissions on the front-page have -at best- incomplete titles.
  • throwaway2048 5y ago
    yes, clearly it is the user's fault that their dishwasher wont work without an update.
    • chaostheory 5y ago
      buro9 has just explained that it will work without the update. The person in question also had the choice either to not buy a wifi enabled smart dishwasher, or not connect it to the internet. My own smart TV is not connected to the internet.
    • obmelvin 5y ago
      maybe I'm misunderstanding the GP - but they seem to say that they have the same dishwasher and that you can skip the update
      • alistairSH 5y ago
        ... if you know the secret button sequence to break out of the menu. I can't think of a good reason to have a network-connected dishwasher. I don't think I'd ever start it remotely, as I still have to clear the table and rinse the dishes. The washer gets started when I'm done loading it. I can check detergent levels while the door is open. Pretty much the same for all my other appliance for that matter.
        • obmelvin 5y ago
          > ... if you know the secret button sequence to break out of the menu. I did see the twitter screenshots, but as I don't own the device myself I couldn't really judge if the GP's instructions are readily apparent to the average user. Also, I don't disagree with you. But the OP seemingly bought such a device and connected it to their wifi. Maybe they are living in a furnished apartment with pre-configured wifi? Anyway - thankfully we are not yet in an era where ones only choice is a connected dishwasher - can still buy used, older models etc. edit: One would hope that you can factory reset the dishwasher to make it forget the wifi information, if it has been configured by someone else.
    • herbstein 5y ago
      As the GGP said, the menu can be exited without updating by scrolling down. The interface isn't intuitive, but it's not a hard block.
      • eropple 5y ago
        If the UI does not make clear the actions you are allowed to perform, it isn't letting you do something.
        • danShumway 5y ago
          Eh. I'm not saying that bad or deceptive UI isn't something worth talking about, but I think there is a really tangible difference between something being difficult to find and being impossible to do.
          • eropple 5y ago
            In some contexts, sure. There's a step change between an appliance doing this--where you are expected to have limited capabilities--and something like a general-purpose computer doing this. An appliance going "nope, I have one path for this" is, tbh, to be expected. A dishwasher washes dishes, and the idea that there is a secret-sauce way to tell it to do something it isn't actively presenting to you is not something a reasonable person is going to expect. It's why my dishwasher has like eight buttons on the top--it enumerates everything it can do. So if that appliance is hiding its verbs, then a reasonable person is going to assume it doesn't have any.
      • JKCalhoun 5y ago
        Agree, but I think there are a number of us that don't want a menu that needs exiting on our dishwasher.
        • micromacrofoot 5y ago
          Sure, but that's a separate issue from title accuracy.
  • scrollaway 5y ago
    I'd have given the poster the benefit of the doubt but then they come out with hate-inciting nonsense trash like this: https://twitter.com/isislovecruft/status/1487947782585417728 https://twitter.com/isislovecruft/status/1487947782585417728 I don't even know what to make of that anymore. Just because it's self-deprecating doesn't make it okay.
    • Cthulhu_ 5y ago
      ...do you feel attacked by the word 'nerd'? I mean the tweet is putting the blame at the wrong people (it's a business decision after all), but I wouldn't go as far as call it "hate-inciting nonsense". You're not under attack.
      • scrollaway 5y ago
        I have a problem with the top reply being about bullying.
        • mcphage 5y ago
          ...what do you think "bullying" is?
    • kragen 5y ago
      Jesus, that's appalling.
    • deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    • toastercat 5y ago
      The twitter poster in question, isislovecruft, has a bit of a volatile persona online. They have been involved in multiple controversies over the years. Not to discredit their work, but they seem to relish in the tech social media spotlight.
    • LegitShady 5y ago
      >hate-inciting I don't see it.
• beerandt 5y ago
  I've been shopping these- I don't like network connected anything for appliances. Including for the reasons you gave. But there are miele versions with custom programmable cycles for things like sterilizing labware, etc, where I could see a web page interface much easier to use than the buttons or screen on the device.
• kuratkull 5y ago
  Sorry, but you forgot to write why the WiFi is useful, the things you listed are not useful at all and/or don't need WiFi.
  • hluska 5y ago
    At the risk of sounding old and snarky, I’ve been looking at a Miele dishwasher and I’m afraid I’m not quite intelligent enough to use it without either an app or an advanced training program. Crap, what happened to ‘normal’ versus ‘heavy’? The damned things are more complicated than my child.
    • denton-scratch 5y ago
      These machines have too many controls. My washer always runs on the same setting (I occasionally press the ECO button). Admittedly, most of my clothes are cotton or similar. When I had a dishwasher it was similar, but with a digital console. I used to just press "Wash". Of course, the controller board that makes all those options available is often the first thing to fail. There's about a dozen settings on the washer's wash-cycle dial, and two rows of buttons. I don't know what they're all for. It's nuts - there must be about 40 combinations.
• michaelt 5y ago
  > The Wi-Fi is useful [...] Performs updates, etc. Ah yes, get wifi so your dishwasher can get security updates, which you need because your dishwasher is on wifi.
  • snek_case 5y ago
    Wouldn't want hackers to hack your analog dishwasher through the power grid!
  • buro9 5y ago
    Updates improve wash efficiency, etc. Not just security updates. Maybe a new cleaning powder comes with a new algo. Maybe there's a better dosing for certain levels of water hardness. But the gist is that it updates the whole module. I'm fine with this, Miele are like Bosch in that they look after the hardware they sell for decades rather than considering it deprecated the day it leaves a shop floor.
    • JadeNB 5y ago
      > Maybe a new cleaning powder comes with a new algo. Ah, fantastic. "Now that we have updated the firmware, we have determined that you need the new proprietary cleaning powder. For your convenience, the dishwasher is disabled until you supply the proper cleaning powder."
    • datavirtue 5y ago
      We used to get this right before stamping them out in the factory. Instead, everything is all appy now, for the benefit of the manufacturer. They are riding the hype to normalize their shitty behavior. Sort of like when banks inconvenience you for thier sake and say it's to protect you (the person under no risk of liability).
    • mburee 5y ago
      Because it'd be too easy to just invest some time beforehand to figure out the optimal process beforehand.
      • 5y ago
• uxp100 5y ago
  Hah, I have an AC window unit from Miele that is a great piece of hardware. But the app, my god, it's so bad. Every launch of the app requires a log in. Every log in error messages pop up about api endpoint such and such, but it works anyway. If a command fails, which it does half the time, the app gets out of sync with the unit (i.e. app will say fan speed medium, unit will say fan speed low). So I guess it syncs state on startup and never again, and doesn't check if commands fail. But there is one feature I can only find in the app, not from buttons on the unit (turning all LEDs off on the unit while it continues to run). The buzzwords I never hear on HN is Digital Twin. It's usually in a HVAC or like smart building context. It's a buzzword for a simple idea, but the makers of the Miele AC app probably should have thought a little harder about tracking system state, maybe read a little of the literature.
  • fortran77 5y ago
    I have a Miele speed oven that arrived with a major defect: Microwave worked, but heat modes didn't. They sent a repair crew and there was a missing wire harness in the circuitry. It never could have worked. My experience with "high end" appliances in general (Bosch, Miele, Wolf, Subzero) is that it's a tax on "rich people". They're not better than top-line LG, etc.
    • Pasorrijer 5y ago
      I agree on a lot of them. Miele however, my mother's last Miele dishwasher lasted 22 years and they were still selling spare parts up until the day she replaced it. That's pretty unheard of in today's day and age
      • jacquesm 5y ago
        But that's the Miele of 22 years ago that you are talking about. Not necessarily the one that exists today.
        • EricE 5y ago
          Yup. I tend to prioritize manufacturers like Whirlpool that make service manuals and parts readily available. Sadly Whirlpool is in an ever shrinking minority. Here in the US there are zero advantages to the European brands - parts and service are atrocious adding insult to injury. Theres more than initial acquisition cost or the looks of the appliance that's worth considering when purchasing!
• JKCalhoun 5y ago
  > Looks like a Miele. Well, kind of what I expect when I buy a cheap dishwasher. (that's sarcasm)
  • tinus_hn 5y ago
    Please wash verification can
• aceazzameen 5y ago
  A good interface consisting of anything such as lights, screens, buzzers, chimes, etc could tell/alert you about levels or the status of the dishwasher without an app too.
• JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
  I have never once needed my dishwasher to be operated remotely. Load it and press start. The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done?
  • BruiseLee 5y ago
    In case of modern appliances, you are not the only customer/user of the product. Other customers are various advertisers that are interested in data about you. The updates provide enhancements for these other customers.
    • ethbr0 5y ago
      We should stop calling it the advertising industry and just call it the tracking industry. Advertising just happens to be the most obvious consumer. IMHO, IoT is a clusterfuck because it's preying on users' past goodwill towards computing. Historically, computers have worked "pretty well" (especially in the last couple decades). So users, when looking at a network-enabled fridge, toaster, etc. logically assume "Oh, this will be like my laptop." What's not apparent to them is how good modern computing has gotten (unless they remember the 90s), or that the companies making IoT stuff have no prior experience in software, or that there are effectively no certifications, standards, or laws around IoT quality.
      • goodpoint 5y ago
        > We should stop calling it the advertising industry and just call it the tracking industry Tracking is not even the most harmful aspect. Tracking is a requirement for targeted psychological manipulation (AKA advertisement) including voter manipulation like Cambridge Analytica did.
      • EricE 5y ago
        Not all IoT is the same. I only buy into IoT systems that I control and have zero or minimal cloud connections. Started years ago with the original X10 powerline control stuff, but as soon as the ZWave wireless mesh stuff started getting traction switched to that and never looked back. I use HomeSeer which is commercial home automation software - that will talk to just about ANY home automation standard out there. The UI is ugly as hell but its ridiculously versatile and functional. If I were to set up something now I'd just stick to stuff that can work locally with HomeKit and use HomeAssistant as the brain to replace HomeSeer. I already have HomeSeer and it works so no need to replace it, but thankfully there are alternatives like HomeKit that are capable - and free!
• fullstop 5y ago
  My dishwasher is from 1992. It's from the era of packet radio and pre-dates WiFi. I can't imagine using some smart phone app to manage a dishwasher.
  • mywacaday 5y ago
    The electricity and water efficiency are likely terrible compared to a modern machine.
    • dtech 5y ago
      I'd be interested in seeing a comparison on this. Washing dishes is a pretty mechanically limited process. I can't imagine that much improvement has been made.
      • fullstop 5y ago
        There have been improvements in the amount of water used since mine was made.
        • brnt 5y ago
          Water consumption I can imagine, but power consumption? And by how much anyway? Improvements in these appliances always feel a little like those percentages on dishwashing liquid. If I would multiple all the improvements since 1990 I think one drop of detergent will be enough for the rest of my life.
          • dtech 5y ago
            I recon decreased energy consumption would be achieved by decreased water consumption, since less water needs heating.
      • vel0city 5y ago
        Better engineered sprayer jets, adding better sensors to determine water turbidity and other water metrics, additional sprayer arms (second-rack sprayer arms were pretty rare IME in the 90s, common today), automatic soap dispenser systems dispensing just the right amount of soap or rinse aid given on various water properties, etc. Even today a super basic mechanical timer based washing machine probably won't work as well or as efficiently as a high end unit with various sensors and logic.
• bambax 5y ago
  > but now you know to do it later Nobody wants to update the firmware of their dishwasher! (or anything, really) I'm sure one can think of "benefits" to this, but as this incident shows, the annoyance far, far outweighs any possible benefit. This is really getting out of hand. "Right to repair" should include "right to dumb down".
  • EricE 5y ago
    >"This is really getting out of hand. "Right to repair" should include "right to dumb down"." Yes! Especially with cars - Toyota backed down but they are full of crap; they fully intended to do it until people objected: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLlzAv2GTdc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLlzAv2GTdc I love how the only people that were going to be exempted were peoples who's cars cellular modems already didn't work. How convenient. I hope I can be buried in the cars I currently own. And if I have to buy a new one if it won't work with the cellular modem being pulled out I ain't buying it.
• cmsonger 5y ago
  > on a VLAN with other white goods, outbound connections to certain domains only ... That probably says what needs to be said about smart appliances. There's a reason that's the right choice. This same reason is the reason smart appliances are a bad idea. Am curious: When the washer is past security updates, are you going to leave it on the VLAN? Would you do that if the washer had a camera or microphone?
  • buro9 5y ago
    > Am curious: When the washer is past security updates, are you going to leave it on the VLAN? Would you do that if the washer had a camera or microphone? TBH I figure that this is roughly the point when the Wi-Fi chipsets can't connect to whatever the standard is at that moment in time. The only really useful Wi-Fi feature of the white goods in my house would be within the hob and the extractor hood. These communicate over Wi-Fi so that the extraction is automatically turned on at the appropriate speed for however the hob is being used, and turned off 30 seconds after the hob stops being used.
• hungryforcodes 5y ago
  "the Wi-Fi is useful... the dishwasher auto-doses the powder, rinse aid, salt, etc... and can let me know the levels of those." I do appreciate your respect for the usefulness of this functionality -- I just throw my laundry in the machine, press ON and then press START, throw in a random amount of soap and 60 minutes later or so I have clean clothes.
  • buro9 5y ago
    > I just throw my laundry in the machine Into the dishwasher?
    • usrbinbash 5y ago
      Oh, I have seen worse things in student dormitories. Ever seen someone use the coffe-maker to cook instant ramen?
      • denton-scratch 5y ago
        I've had AirBnB guests that used the electric kettle to cook ramen. This is an apartment with a stove, oven and all necessary kitchen equipment. Of course this is stupid; you put the dry ramen in a bowl, pour on boiling water, and wait a minute or two. That's what the instructions on the pack actually say. It's not necessary to boil ramen.
        • goodpoint 5y ago
          A lot of instant noodles taste a lot better if you boil them a bit.
    • jsmith45 5y ago
      I suppose it technically could clean clothing too, albeit you probably can't fit very much without balling or layering stuff up too much to get it clean. A clothes washing machine is probably more efficient for this purpose. Although for countries where laundry machines are typically in the kitchen, a theoretical hybrid machine would be interesting (if it worked well, and the dish specific stuff could fold away compactly), but in practice multi-function machines like that rarely seem to turn out well.
• sofixa 5y ago
  > There's a Home Assistant integration too, but I've not done that (my VLAN setup prevented it!). Can't you have the machine running HA on two vlans or route with your router?
  • vetinari 5y ago
    You can, but... 1) if you run HassOS (Home Assistant Operating System), getting root shell where you can run appropriate nmcli commands is unnecessary convoluted (there are two "ssh & terminal" extensions, the "official" one won't give you a shell on the host, due to "security"). The good news is, that once you do have the root shell, configuring vlans is easy, it runs standard NetworkManager. 2) if you do not run HassOS, but inside a docker on some other common home devices, they can have their footguns too. For example, if you have Synology NAS and run HA in docker, you are going to google for blog posts how to configure vlans + bonding (spoiler: no hybrid ports, only trunk), or vlans + openswitch, or, heaven forbid, vlans + bonding + openswitch. That are going to be few evenings appropriately spent. 3) Some devices, when connecting to wifi, would connect successfully only if the device you are pairing it from is on the same wifi (i.e. you can't have your phone on your main ssid/vlan and connect the device to isolated ssid/vlan). Bosch Home Connect, I'm looking at you...
• lifeisstillgood 5y ago
  What are you using as your home router setup? (off topic but interested)
  • buro9 5y ago
    Still stuck on Ubiquiti things. It does allow wrangling with the networks and the UI is very pretty... but configuring this to disable the Ubiquiti Cloud and yet enable most features locally was a PITA.
• paganel 5y ago
  > the tiny bit on the right... that's a scroll bar of multiple options including the ability to exit this menu) This should merit a post all by itself.
• cproctor 5y ago
  I think in the end it's not abut utility--adding "smart" lets you dramatically bump the price. Look at smoke detectors (as an example I was thinking about this morning): the best-rated (Consumer Reports) wired smoke detector costs $31. Ten-year sealed battery models cost less. But the smart smoke detectors start at $130. These cost another $2 in hardware and some dev (and probably certification) costs to recoup, but they also open the opportunity for subscriptions and who-knows-what-kind-of in-app purchases which can be sold to anxious-complacent-frazzled consumers with extra disposable income.
  • dylan604 5y ago
    I'm not sure. Look at "smart" TVs. Their prices continue to go down. Why? They are heavily subsidized by all of the analytics they earn from the data you provide them. By lowering the price, it makes it easier to sell to more and more people. Raising the prices does not. Not sure of the number of units sold comparing dishwashers vs TVs, so maybe there's not enough volume in dishwasher? Also, I can only imagine the analytics data from TV viewing is much more informative/beneficial than how many times someone washes dishes.
    • cproctor 5y ago
      That's a good counter-example, and I agree with your suggestion that the value of the analytics probably explains the difference. (The value of smoke detector analytics is probably even lower than that of dishwashers!) So maybe we could agree that adding "smart" results in a more profitable product, whether that's because of a higher sale price, higher ongoing revenues, or both.
  • EricE 5y ago
    That best rated consumer reports detector only detects fast burning fires. The Nest Protect, for example, has both slow burning and fast burning smoke detectors as well as carbon monoxide. Three detectors in one. They also have built sensors and perform weekly automatic self tests to ensure they will make noise/alert when needed and that the detectors are working. A non functioning sensor in a detector just provides a false sense of security. Just about every time there are deaths from house fires detectors are either missing or are non-functioning. Speaking of non-functioning, many people disconnect detectors because the cheap ones are so hard to silence if there is a false alarm. Again with the Nest Protects you just wave at them. People are far less likely to disable something if it's not annoying. When there is an event instead of just loudly beeping, they also speak in a clear voice what the issue is (smoke, CO, etc.) - and more importantly, which detector is going off so you know where the issue is as well. I love that for my parents who are older - clarity in a time of crises is life saving. So yeah, at $100 (easy to find them on sale or bundled) they cost more than a $31 detector - but they also do a hell of a lot more. Having had friends/family who have had to deal with house fires in the middle of the night (very disorienting) or near death experiences with undetected carbon monoxide (it's more common that one would think!) the slight price increase of them is WELL worth it. A ridiculous pittance for the greatly increased peace of mind. And they still work without connecting to the Internet. I would at least do it initially to configure them, especially to program in their locations so you get useful information in an emergency, then disconnect them if you are really paranoid. However I do like the alerting if there is a problem with one. It happens - sensors don't last forever and I'd rather know about a non-functioning detector and replace it rather than have a useless piece of plastic on the wall. Also love the motion activated path light feature of them too - so perfect for moving around at night without waking others or having to fumble for a switch. Wish they had an option for brighter lights, especially for units in the hallway - or as supplemental emergency egress lighting. Would help further offset their higher cost. But yeah, smart detectors - probably one place where there is SIGNIFICANT net benefit well worth the increased cost.
• barbazoo 5y ago
  I added smart plugs flashed with Tasmota to appliances to determine that they are "done". No need for proprietary apps or to call the manufacturer, just measure the power draw.
• strangattractor 5y ago
  My LG TV would not let we watch until I updated my Terms of Service. The only option was to agree or not be able to use the TV I had already purchased and paid for.
  • EricE 5y ago
    Never connect it to the Internet. Just use a Roku instead of the horrible built in apps. Honestly I'm amazed that so many people actually connect their "smart" TVs to the Internet. No way in hell!
    • obert 5y ago
      not everyone likes Roku interface, and not everyone wants to or can plug in something on the back of the tv
      • EricE 5y ago
        Then enjoy being tracked in increasingly unseemly ways. The current morass of advertising chicanery continues to exist because people are willing to trade away their privacy for convenience. If you know something sucks but continue to do it because it's convenient then it's beyond disingenuous to keep complaining about it. "Doctor it hurts when I do this" and all that :p
        • obert 5y ago
          you assume everyone, me included, is complaining, and that Roku doesn’t track either. That’s the same mentality that people had about Google in the early days. There’s a need for embedded solutions, better design, lower costs, etc.
    • spookthesunset 5y ago
      The "smart" stuff on my Sony TV is pretty damn good actually. It has all the major streaming services I use and the remote isn't half bad. It's actually taken over most of the functionality we used the Apple TV for.
• twobitshifter 5y ago
  If your dishwasher Shopping don’t get caught up in the Miele brand. Wire cutter put them below almost all other brands including whirlpool Maytag and GE in terms of cleaning. Of course they still do have a good reputation for reliability. https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwasher/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/the-best-dishwash... >Miele’s cleaning performance is strong, but not quite the best we’ve found. We tested two different Classic Plus units (both installed in our office in Long Island City, New York), and they struggled a bit with the stubbornest foods, including a cheese-and-bean plate, egg, oatmeal, and burnt brownie. Miele’s model was a step behind the Bosch, Whirlpool, Maytag, and even GE dishwashers we tested. Consumer Reports (“Quick Guide: Dishwashers,” Consumer Reports Buying Guide 2021, pp. 23–25) also rates Miele just a tick below the best performers. But with most loads, most of the time, a Miele should still get everything totally clean.
  • Freak_NL 5y ago
    Miele also started limiting the availability of parts to official Miele certified repair centres only¹, so repairability is limited too — i.e., you would have to go to an approved service company rather than do it yourself or have a local handy person do it. 1: This was reported in the news in the Netherlands, they may not be introducing this everywhere at once, but it is a worrying trend.
• bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  >Alternatively as the dishwasher clearly is on Wi-Fi already (the only way it would know there's an update) I guess yes it might be that but consider this workflow - First start Ask to update software - sounds legit OK Now you've okayed, now we ask to connect to Wi-fi - obviously need to connect to update software which you already agreed to! If say user testing found that more people agreed to connect to Wi-Fi as part of update software on first installation then we get the above workflow and nobody says my dishwasher won't let me start without connecting to Wi-Fi which to some people might sound more worrying. And people then say there are lots of reasons why you should take software update - what about security! Bug fixes in the dishwasher! but all that said you are probably right, it is on wi-fi and that's how it knows, but it won't necessarily stay that way forever.
• idatum 5y ago
  If you simply need to know when the dishwasher is on, and be alerted when then off (complete), there are simple and non-wifi solutions by monitoring the power usage on its circuit. For example, I have CTs directly attached to my laundry circuits which I monitor to generate alerts. Helps keep the family moving along when we all have laundry queued up.
• spaceman10 5y ago
  Your post missed the entire point of the frustration and arbitrates it away through an explanation that obfuscates clarity ad nauseum. See what i did there. one sentence. THE ISSUE PRESENTED IN THE POST: I want to use the product. I have to inconvenience my routine to use it. This issue is pervasive in tech. It ASSUMES the idiot. Big Tech is defining what is best for the user. This is what we have bought. This post is pointing that out. From what I can tell, the Parent post here is a shill or is the typical 'doesn't happen to me tech elitist'. That's about it. Found my login to make this comment. Logging out.
• adhesive_wombat 5y ago
  I am still completely mystified by why it's useful to be able to check your dishwasher salt or rinse aid on a phone. When it's empty, you still have to actually fill it, so if the LED comes on just fill the tank at some point in the next 10 or so cycles and it'll do. And when old bag or bottle is empty, buy salt on one of the next 10 or so supermarket trips. The dishwasher will not need more any time soon after a refill. Maybe I'm missing a crucial piece of modern life, but it feels like yet more stats porn to go with all the metrics vomited into life by fitness trackers and apparently every piece of software.
• barfingclouds 5y ago
  I wish I was able to use the downvote button