58 ms·

Letter from Union Pacific to LA District Attorney re: train thefts, safety [pdf]

259 points by tomohawk 5y ago

ilamont 5y ago
• On average, over 90 containers compromised per day. • In partnership with Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD), Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department (LASD), and California Highway Patrol (CHP) we estimate over 100 arrests have been made of active criminals vandalizing our trains. UP alone making several dozens of arrests. • With our law enforcement partners we have deterred hundreds of individuals from trespassing and vandalizing our trains. • Of all those arrests, however, UP has not been contacted for any court proceedings. The damning thing here is the lack of prosecution for the arrests that have happened. It's a clear message to offenders that they can continue what they are doing with no serious consequences. However, a figure that's missing from Union Pacific's letter is how much (or how little) UP has invested in security measures since the theft wave began, or relative to another time period.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  > UP by its own effort and cost enlisted additional and existing Special Agents across the UP system to join our local efforts with LAPD, LASD and CHP to help prevent the ongoing thefts. We have also utilized and are further exploring the use of additional technologies to help us combat these criminals through drones, specialized fencing, trespass detection systems, and other measures.
- csdvrx 5y ago
  - Ma8ee 5y ago
    /s?
    - csdvrx 5y ago
      - AlexandrB 5y ago
        I agree with you as long as we apply the same standard to "white collar crime". Embezzle money from your company? Off to death row for you. Defraud investors? Death row. Run a Ponzi scheme? Death row. Alternately, give defrauded investors the same rights you suggest for property owners so they can hunt the guilty party themselves.
        csdvrx 5y ago
        I love of whenever we talk about "theft", people cry "but what about wage theft". There's a clear difference in scope, amount, consequence (...), so much that except having the same letter in the same order, it's not the same thing. "Wage theft" means a small underpayment, which is (1) directly and immediately found, (2) can be put to a stop right after it happens by going to another job, (3) carries legal financial consequences to someone with deeper pocket, the employer (and I'm not even talking about negative press) "Theft" in the case of the attacked trains is for much larger amounts, is apparently unstoppable and carries 0 consequences to the perpetrators - should they even be found, charged and convicted, I don't think their estate would be able to cover even a fraction of the losses. To your favor, you didn't mention "wage theft" (yet), but here, you're doing essentially the same thing with a bunch of similar words. FYI, all that you mention carry heavy consequences: just look at how it went for Holmes or Madoff.
  - pempem 5y ago
    !!!
- integrii 5y ago
  Seems like you're suggesting that private security should be an expected cost because the state will no longer protect you like they have been for many years...
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    I certainly did not expect the libertarian ideal of depending for protection wholly on private security, instead of on the state, to be first implemented in Los Angeles, of all places.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      UPs police force is not private security in the usual sense. Those in CA are California peace officers, and all of them are also specially federally empowered for interstate operations. And this isn't new, major railroads have had these publicly-empowered police forces since the late 19th century.
  - bpodgursky 5y ago
    UP already has their own police. Why bother investing in more, if none of the arrests result in charges? It's pointless to spend more.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Why bother investing in more, if none of the arrests result in charges? UP is not complaining that none of the arrests result in charges. (They are complaining that the DA is settling for plea deals to lesser charges than they would prefer and not trying to employ cash bail as pre-conviction punishment for disabling [by incarceration of those who can’t afford it] suspects and deterring potential future criminals instead of not using it when it is not necessary to secure appearance of a suspect legally presumed innocent.) Also, it's well known that sufficiently visible security is a deterrent to crime, which is better than after-the-fact arrests, so an eruption in undeterred crime is evidence of a need for more and more visible security.
- mc32 5y ago
  On face value that’s pretty fanning of the current prosecutorial office. It’s a discouraging dereliction of duty to not follow up and prosecute these criminals. These thefts not only hurt the companies but also hurt each buyer who will have to pay indirectly for the added cost of operations. As I mentioned in the previous thread, we may yet see a Pinkerton service rise to meet this need.
  - Miner49er 5y ago
    > These thefts not only hurt the companies but also hurt each buyer who will have to pay indirectly for the added cost of operations. Is this damage more then the cost of prosecuting and punishing the thieves? If not, it's not worth it.
    - pempem 5y ago
      Well, first they need to be caught and brought up on charges. Then they can be prosecuted. The bigger question is where even is the LAPD?
      - fennecfoxen 5y ago
        Per the letter, the question is NOT, "where even is the LAPD." It is, "where are the Los Angeles County prosecutors?" And the answer Union Pacific provides is, "letting these people who are arrested go free with a plea deal for simple trespassing."
      - zaroth 5y ago
        They are being caught and arrested. Then the DA lets them go, so they go back and steal more, and spread the word that nothing happens even when you do get caught.
    - mc32 5y ago
      Non-prosecution sends a signal "it's okay, we will not prosecute you". Less scrupulous people learn there is no prosecution and this becomes a routine drag on rail commerce. In Nigeria you get people who hijack petrol transportation --often times they lead to fiery explosions. It's not a path we should want to devolve to. The middle ages had highway men. We want to avoid going backwards.
- pempem 5y ago
  Maybe its because the LAPD has such a little budget? /s.
  - Rebelgecko 5y ago
    Even though LAPD's budget is drastically lower per-capita and per-area than other major cities, it sounds like a bigger problem is that even when someone is arrested they can be let out of jail same day with no bail for even repeat offenders.
- millzlane 5y ago
  >The damning thing here is the lack of prosecution for the arrests that have happened. It's a clear message to offenders that they can continue what they are doing with no serious consequences. Also missing, is the figure of number of arrests that haven't been prosecuted. That data should be out there somewhere. It's interesting that no data to prove the theory has surfaced.
  - nathanvanfleet 5y ago
    That's what they are saying, the government isn't supplying them with that data.
    - lazyasciiart 5y ago
      All prosecutions are public data. So the government may not be serving it up on a plate, but they also must not be trying to find out.
  - pmorici 5y ago
    UP implies they believe there have been zero prosecutions. If there were any resulting from the arrests they made they would have had to be involved as witnesses and they say they haven’t been contacted in that capacity.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > UP implies they believe there have been zero prosecutions Under the California Victim's Bill of Rights they have a right to information on this on request (but they don't have to be provided with it proactively), so if they merely “believe” this but can point to neither concrete information or a failure to respond to inquiries, it means they have chosen not to ask to avoid their belief being proven wrong. But, anyway, they don't say that, so its immaterial: they specifically acknowledge prosecutions and convictions, they are just upset that the DA is taking plea deals to charges they feel are insufficiently serious rather than expending more resources seeking convictions (and risking acquittals) on more serious charges. (They also specifically are validating the argument of anti-cash-bail advocates by portraying cash bail as a punitive and disabling measure against unconvicted suspects rather than a means of securing appearance.)
- mikewarot 5y ago
- almost_usual 5y ago
  Interesting they choose the word vandalism here. I hope they’re distinguishing between someone doing graffiti and someone breaking into a container and stealing what’s inside it. Before anyone jumps to “well broken window” freight graffiti has been a thing for like 40 years and has no correlation to container robberies.
  - mleo 5y ago
    The use of “vandalism” vs theft seems to be perspective. The container was vandalized to access. The actual theft of items within is secondary. Related use. I had a storage space where the company said there was vandalism in the area of my locker and I should come check. Sure enough it was broken into and items had been taken. As far as storage company was concerned, it was vandalism of their property and theft of mine.
    - lazyasciiart 5y ago
      It's at best accidental lack of precision. It is inarguable that graffiti is vandalization: it is possible but unlikely that they are using it here only to describe a subset of the activities it means.
  - beerandt 5y ago
    Theft before the actual thing is taken would require at minimum a proof of intent, and could still be problematic. So vandalism is the "easiest" charge for those caught in the act. And gets around one potential argument from prosecutors that charges should be dropped.
  - mc32 5y ago
    They forgot destruction of property. They had to break in to get to the goods.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  Am I missing something or is the first bullet point completely orthogonal to the second. They talk about train thefts on the rise but then cite a statistic about "over 100 arrests" for vandalism? How are these related? What are the stats for arrests for theft?
  - greggman3 5y ago
    As pointed out on other comments. From the train's POV the train was vandalized but nothing that belongs the the train company was stolen. The stuff that was stolen belong to other entities. But yes, it would be good to know stats for both
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > From the train's POV the train was vandalized but nothing that belongs the the train company was stolen. Trains are inanimate and don't have a POV, and from the perspective of UP (which has a police force notionally charged with addressing crimes on railway property, not merely crimes against the railway), that’s not correct if an actual theft occurred.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ethbr0 5y ago
  > But even with these expanded resources and closer partnerships with local law enforcement, we find ourselves coming back to the same results with the Los Angeles County criminal justice system. Criminals are caught and arrested, turned over to local authorities for booking, arraigned before the local courts, charges are reduced to a misdemeanor or petty offense, and the criminal is released after paying a nominal fine. These individuals are generally caught and released back onto the streets in less than twenty-four hours. From experience inside a major retail chain at the national level, this is the story of retail theft in general. The interface between private security and public law enforcement is... inefficient. (To put it nicely) "Not caught here" is a real thing. Private security lays a theft case in law enforcement's lap, oftentimes better documented than police cases, and the collective response is a yawn and inaction. And while I'm a proponent of justice reform, theft is theft. We're not talking about busting someone for personal amounts of marijuana. This is forcefully choosing to break into a secure container, for purposes of stealing items of value for sale. With the resulting costs being borne by everyone who uses the system.
  - chris11 5y ago
    > From experience inside a major retail chain at the national level, this is the story of retail theft in general. I thought it was common at some places, like Target, to track but not report shoplifting until it qualified for a felony. Then once the shoplifter had stolen enough to be charged for a felony they were prosecuted.
    - pkaeding 5y ago
      Years ago, I worked for a regional discount retail chain, in the Loss Prevention department (my job was installing cameras and other low-voltage systems). The focus of LP there (and probably at most retail places) was internal theft. They would try to discourage shoplifting, but employees stealing represented much bigger losses. I remember hearing one of the guys reviewing video tape saying that they were tallying up a bunch of thefts (in this case, the subject was a cashier, and he was pretending to ring up items for his friends and family, but not really scanning it). The kid was 17, going to turn 18 in a couple weeks. The guy reviewing the tape joked about how the tally would be $1000 shortly after his birthday, when he would be an adult: "Happy birthday, you're under arrest for grand larceny". It was sickening. I enjoyed my job, and I didn't mind if criminals were caught and prosecuted, but the attitude that led to jokes like that didn't sit well with me.
- prawn 5y ago
  I wondered if some of the issue is how people are caught? Are they getting caught with obvious evidence breaking into the containers, or are most getting caught scrounging through packages on the ground?
- kingcharles 5y ago
  From someone who has extensive experience in the criminal justice system, I wonder how much of this is because they have no evidence of theft by the persons they arrest? It's one thing to arrest someone who is clearly on your property* and the officer can testify they found Person X where they shouldn't be, but unless the officer sees X pulling a package out of a railcar and can specifically identify them, it gets tricky to find them guilty of the larger crime at trial. Almost certainly though, multiple misdemeanour convictions for trespassing are eventually going to elevate to a felony. It is possibly still worth it though. Having been locked up I know many people who would commit what most people would consider petty robberies and just suck up the months and years of being locked up. People become inured to incarceration. The first time you're locked up you're scared and you don't know what's going on. The second time: you walk in like a boss and all your friends are already there. A lot of the people doing this have been programmed by their peers to see regular jobs as something suckers do, and that crime is the "cool" way to make money. Most of them are not doing it because jobs are unavailable, just that they don't want a job. A lot of them would work for themselves though if they could find the right industry and were given appropriate help to see it through and stay on the correct path. * trespass isn't always a crime the first time you are caught somewhere you should not be - often it requires the property owner to tell you that you are not welcome to return before the statute activates
- bluedino 5y ago
  Remember all the smash and grab retail lootings? The Target store that was burned down? It was all on video. Hundreds participating. How many prosecutions came out of that?
  - jrockway 5y ago
    It takes time and money. The idiots that wrecked up the Capitol and tried to kill a sitting Vice President (all while recording thousands of hours of video footage) are just now being prosecuted, a year later.
x3n0ph3n3 5y ago
Related discussion: Train burglaries in LA - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930970
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
threatofrain 5y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29963125 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29963125 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930970
- millzlane 5y ago
  Think OP is correcting his post from yesterday. Where a commenter suggest he link to the letter instead of the opinion piece. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29962006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29962006
- fennecfoxen 5y ago
  + photo gallery attached to the LA Times coverage of the same: the train tracks are just littered with piles of torn-open shipping boxes https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-01-15/photos-robbing-trains-no-longer-exclusive-to-western-movies-as-tracks-near-dtla-littered-with-pilfered-e-commerce https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-01-15/photos-r...
  - exhilaration 5y ago
    Don't miss these pictures, folks!
    - Qub3d 5y ago
      Jeez, talk about dystopian: https://archive.fo/32Oxe/100c8558eb486a340a554a583e45f49d291b7c4b.webp https://archive.fo/32Oxe/100c8558eb486a340a554a583e45f49d291...
      - muzz 5y ago
        "Visible" might be a better word. Far more dollars are stolen from bank accounts, wages, etc. but there are no striking photos of that.
        5y ago
Overtonwindow 5y ago
IANL: What is the rules for use of force for railroad police, or railroad authorities protecting cargo? It seems people are breaking into these cars without fear of force, or prosecution. Combined, those are like a powder keg of lawlessness.
- asdff 5y ago
  It would be a bad idea to use force against train robbers. They would just start packing guns themselves. Often times these robberies are coordinated by organized crime who control robbery rights over certain sections of track.
  - integrii 5y ago
    Are you suggesting people should not defend property because the attackers will just escalate force and continue their crimes? Then by that logic, I now understand the push to reduce the punishment of so much crime.
  - treeman79 5y ago
    Basic criminals don’t like being shot. Large reason why gun free cities are so dangerous.
    - Ma8ee 5y ago
      Are gun free cities more dangerous? Could you provide a source for the claim?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - treeman79 5y ago
        Look at Chicago. Google suppresses nearly all pro gun or right wing content, so searching on mobile is difficult.
fuzzer37 5y ago
>we estimate over 100 arrests have been made of active criminals vandalizing our trains. I think the graffiti on trains looks cool. Much nicer looking than the logos on the side.
- ohCh6zos 5y ago
  I can't stand graffiti anywhere because it implies a lack of respect for those around you.
  - nopenopenopeno 5y ago
    I agree. Advertising has gotten out of hand. It is insulting to the citizens of our society, and often outright dishonest as well. The advertising industry should be illegal.
    - ketralnis 5y ago
      I think you're trying to be ironic but... yes. Absolutely. Third parties trading money with each other for my attention is insulting and dishonest.
      - nopenopenopeno 5y ago
        I am being dead serious.
    - prawn 5y ago
      I'd include tagging within a broader term of advertising.
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    Would you apply this same standard to wearing a mask during a pandemic? How about being vaccinated?
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    What I see is someone taking ugliness and artlessness and creating beauty.
andjd 5y ago
> On average, over 90 containers compromised per day. > 160% increase in criminal rail theft Combining these statistics indicates that UP was experiencing over 56 containers compromised per day before the policy change. Compare that with the almost 50,000 containers daily that flow through the Ports of LA and Long Beach. I don't know what percentage of that UP handles, but I think it's safe to say that even 90 containers is a small fraction. UP has insurance, and, I'm sure treats a small percentage of thefts as the cost of doing business. UP can increase their investment in securing their trains and property. The alternative is the taxpayer spending a lot of money on police and incarceration. The US's incarceration rate is ridiculously higher that all other advanced economies. We can probably find better things to spend all that money on.
- DantesKite 5y ago
  The US justice system is the best in the world and one of the reason's why capitalism has flourished so well here. It is by no means perfect, but a free market only works when the rules are enforced. Giving up on crime doesn't strike me as a sensible solution for any community. See San Francisco et al.
  - throwaway946513 5y ago
    > The U.S. justice system is the best in the world, and one of the reasons... I'm sorry, but this is the first time I've heard such a statement, and would like to know more.
  - gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
    The shariah justice system is the best in the world and one of the reason's why Islam has flourished so well there. It is by no means perfect, but a pious society only works when the rules are enforced.
    - solumos 5y ago
      I'd rather live under sharia law than anarchy
newbamboo 5y ago
“all those arrests, however, UP has not been contacted for any court proceedings.” They’ve tried to recall gascon already for this, but the voters want him and his policies. If UP doesn’t like it they should bypass LA. It’s a sinking ship anyway, politely asking for “leadership” is laughably naive. California has one party for all intents and purposes and voters are too afraid because the elite tell them it’s too dangerous to vote outside The Party.
- 01100011 5y ago
  Well, I think you also have to recognize that a lot of non-Democrats running for offices in CA are... batshit crazy. Then again, you'd have to be to think you have a chance at winning in this state. I have to think there will be some point at which the voters will have had enough. Maybe it will be the mandatory 3rd bin for organic waste... maybe it will be single payer health care... Hard to say. FWIW, I'm not opposed in theory to either separation of organic waste or single payer health care, just the ways in which CA is likely to implement them. That's the thing that has kept me in CA so far. I agree in principle with many things. I'll even admit Chesa Boudin has some fair points about criminal justice reform. That said, there is a gross impracticality to the implementations of many pieces of Progressivism that CA Dems refuse to acknowledge.
  - the_only_law 5y ago
    > Well, I think you also have to recognize that a lot of non-Democrats running for offices in CA are... batshit crazy. This is the problem with the US. I get to pick from incompetent idiots or deranged idiots. I’ll continue just to sit out.
  - newbamboo 5y ago
    Political outsiders are always called crazy and/or incompetent, and since the parties can control reality via their media influence everyone accepts the narrative. Arnold Schwarzenegger was supposed to destroy the state, Ross Perot was mocked as a crazy incompetent, Ralph Nader etc… Always the same narrative. But the reality is, the stars of both political parties are, in many cases, crazy or incompetent themselves. Many examples. Some of the top party figures are starting to suffer from dementia and literally have had episodes, clear mental lapses, while speaking publicly. Despite the recorded evidence, the average news watching voter is convinced that political outsiders, even those who have had long successful careers in some competitive field outside politics (say brain surgeon or ceo) cannot perform similar duties because they don’t have the party’s endorsement. Party endorsement is not evidence of sanity or competent leadership.
cjbgkagh 5y ago
I've had 3 of 3 packages go missing in the last two months, all traveling via train through L.A. Either I'm rather unlucky or the thefts are rather thorough. I see some people complaining about their packages being stolen, but if the thefts are that thorough I would expect to see many more. My conspiracy brain can't help but imagine the possibility that discussion of this is being gently suppressed because business don't want people to stop buying things. I've had to stop buying things for now. I hope this is properly resolved soon.
- bhelkey 5y ago
  > I've had 3 of 3 packages go missing in the last two months Did the packages get replaced?
  - cjbgkagh 5y ago
    Refunds / replacements are in progress. I think customer service is a bit stretched at the moment. I'm not sure about the law but I think you have to receive the item to be considered to have taken delivery.
    - bhelkey 5y ago
      I see, I guess I figured that the merchant would detect that the package was never delivered and just ship another product on their end. Maybe I was a bit optimistic.
      - cjbgkagh 5y ago
        They are smaller boutique vendors and USPS and FedEx still have the packages as 'in transit'. Only the first package is considered lost by USPS and that was after 6 weeks of no updates and two escalations. At that time I had no idea train thefts were going on. The goods are expensive and low margin. I imagine it's not typically worth insuring though as it would normally be worth playing the odds. I would imagine having so much systemic theft at the same time would be crushing such vendors.
thebeardisred 5y ago
Seems like they should have re-titled the PDF (or not saved a default title in the client): "PREPARED FOR REVIEW/APPROVAL BY John Venice and Adrian Guerrero 5/14/18"
- gruez 5y ago
  >5/14/18 it was approved... 3 years ago?
  - sbierwagen 5y ago
    Somebody edited an existing letter to make this, for whatever reason.
BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 5y ago
UP needs to set up a fenced off freight yard in the middle of the desert with armed guards patrolling the perimeter and manning the entrances. Use Budd cars to bring in the employees. That was done in Toronto when the freight yards were moved from downtown to the boonies.
- chroem- 5y ago
  Alternatively, California could stop speedrunning a Somalia-style collapse of rule of law.
  - seattle_spring 5y ago
    I'm gonna have to say that's just a bit of an exaggeration.
    - e4e78a06 5y ago
      Perhaps not Somali civil war level failure, but taxes keep going up while government keeps becoming more ineffective. Government concern for personal safety and property keeps going down. I personally no longer feel safe going outside my $3000/mo apartment after dark despite being a tall man because there are mentally deranged homeless who, quite literally, roam the streets attacking vulnerable people (my wife was assaulted by one and police didn't care), and frequent reports of robbery at gunpoint. Prices in stores in downtown are 2x what they are in nice suburb areas an hour's drive away because of unprosecuted theft. It is literally cheaper for me to _order Instacart and tip a driver_ than it is to purchase from local grocery stores. And what are my elected politicians doing during this time? Sending out emails to their constituents about "mitigating inequity" in how roads are resurfaced and renaming manhole covers.
      - pueblito 5y ago
        $3,000 a month apartment surrounded by homeless people feels like a serious income distribution problem
trembonator 5y ago
friendlydog 5y ago
toptal 5y ago
This says it all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsipYHlah6s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsipYHlah6s
destitude 5y ago
So in other words no matter how much security UP puts in place it is pointless because they same people they turn over to police for prosecution will be right back tomorrow. Other option is then physical barriers which doesn't really seem feasible. So I can see why they are trying to figure out if they can just avoid the area entirely.
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  In another article it was mentioned that some cars are being welded closed because locks aren't enough to keep thieves out. So now it's a question of if the thieves show up with something to cut through the welds and if that extra time and effort will be deterrent enough.
  - beerandt 5y ago
    And do welded doors become a signal for "valuable contents"?
sfifs 5y ago
I think increasingly that people in western societies are misunderstanding (and electing people to positions of power who misunderstand) the big picture purpose that law enforcement and justice system has played throughout civilized history. The primary purpose is to promote economic growth by reducing societal costs by deterring crime and fraud (including 'civil' fraud like breaking contracts) in an orderly manner. The purpose is deterrence and without effective deterrence, costs of "lack of trust" drive economic inefficiency that are felt both at macro level and individual level. Where I live, people routinely leave bicycles and scooters outside when running errands, routinely take public transport and walk at any time of the day or night without fear and routinely leave delivery packages for collection at the doorstep just to give a few examples because the crime rate is low given strong deterrence. All this translates to lower costs individually, lower pollution, more efficient logistics leading to lower economic overheads and also a healthier than average population (exercise while taking public transport) leading to lower long term health care costs which enables the government to invest in more welfare state like measures wich in turn reduces crime further. Note however that social justice and welfare goals are advanced by other organizations in the Government, not the law enforcement organization. Without deterrence, you get a negative spiral as we're beginning to see in cases like this where the purpose of justice system is being subverted to goals other than deterrence. These other goals are very important, but they need to be achieved by other independent organizations so you don't get the carrot at the cost of the stick being broken.
- JPKab 5y ago
  This is common sense, except to the foolish activists who believe everything Rousseau ever wrote.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  > Where I live, people routinely leave bicycles and scooters outside when running errands, routinely take public transport and walk at any time of the day or night without fear and routinely leave delivery packages for collection at the doorstep just to give a few examples because the crime rate is low given strong deterrence I've lived in places like this, as well. Except it didn't come down to the existence of the police, but the fact that it was a middle to upper middle class neighborhood where nobody had a reason to commit petty theft. Deterrence wasn't a factor at all with the people that lived there when it came to buying and selling drugs like cocaine, for example. Truthfully, I think most property crime would be stopped in its tracks if people didn't have economic reasons to commit petty theft. > I think increasingly that people in western societies are misunderstanding (and electing people to positions of power who misunderstand) the big picture purpose that law enforcement and justice system has played throughout civilized history. If we look at the history of policing in the US, we didn't have municipal police forces for quite some time. In the North in port cities, merchant owners would hire security at their ports, and decided that it would be cheaper to instead make it a government service that everyone pays for instead of just the merchants[1]: > In cities, increasing urbanization rendered the night-watch system completely useless as communities got too big. The first publicly funded, organized police force with officers on duty full-time was created in Boston in 1838. Boston was a large shipping commercial center, and businesses had been hiring people to protect their property and safeguard the transport of goods from the port of Boston to other places, says Potter. These merchants came up with a way to save money by transferring to the cost of maintaining a police force to citizens by arguing that it was for the “collective good.” In the South, policing rose out of gangs of slave patrols[1]: > In the South, however, the economics that drove the creation of police forces were centered not on the protection of shipping interests but on the preservation of the slavery system. Some of the primary policing institutions there were the slave patrols tasked with chasing down runaways and preventing slave revolts, Potter says; the first formal slave patrol had been created in the Carolina colonies in 1704. During the Civil War, the military became the primary form of law enforcement in the South, but during Reconstruction, many local sheriffs functioned in a way analogous to the earlier slave patrols, enforcing segregation and the disenfranchisement of freed slaves. Ultimately, the origins of policing in the US from wealthy owners wishing to secure their expensive assets from theft, destruction, or in the case of slaves, escape, and also not wanting to pay for that security themselves. Later those police forces served those same owners by serving as strikebreakers[1]: > For example, businessmen in the late 19th century had both connections to politicians and an image of the kinds of people most likely to go on strike and disrupt their workforce. So it’s no coincidence that by the late 1880s, all major U.S. cities had police forces. Fears of labor-union organizers and of large waves of Catholic, Irish, Italian, German, and Eastern European immigrants, who looked and acted differently from the people who had dominated cities before, drove the call for the preservation of law and order, or at least the version of it promoted by dominant interests. For example, people who drank at taverns rather than at home were seen as “dangerous” people by others, but they might have pointed out other factors such as how living in a smaller home makes drinking in a tavern more appealing. (The irony of this logic, Potter points out, is that the businessmen who maintained this belief were often the ones who profited off of the commercial sale of alcohol in public places.) [1] https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/ https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/
victorbstan 5y ago
I wonder if the US police in LA is starting to become like the local Mexican police, ie. corrupt and working with the criminals; where the "Federal Police" and then the Army has to step in to reign-in local police corruption. -- I say this because of the statement in the letter, where UP mentioned that they were never contacted in regards with any of the arrests made.
- nxm 5y ago
  No evidence of this, so I take it as nothing more than a conspiracy theory
  - noah_buddy 5y ago
    You should look into the sheriff gangs of LA county. Most police departments have more than their fair share of criminals.
- klurple 5y ago
  They were never contacted in regards to court proceedings. That’s different and involves a charging decision by a prosecuting attorney, in this case Garcón or his staff. In the US you can be arrested, held, and prosecution declined. It happens routinely and the police have absolutely nothing to do with it (short of what they charge and allege informing the decision by the prosecuting attorney). UP is saying that LAPD/LASD and their own peace officers are making arrests and subsequently step two isn’t happening. They’re right, too. Declination of prosecution is the remedy specifically prescribed by 20-07 for some offenses, notably trespassing. Whereas before this was a subjective call by a prosecuting attorney (i.e., redirecting troubled folks to get care), Garcón has made it proscriptive with little regard for the circumstances. That’s what UP is fundamentally protesting here. In case it’s not clear, they’re barking at and low-key threatening Garcón with this letter, not the police (but it’s a rather weak threat; UP avoiding LA county doesn’t impact the DA nor county much). The two halves of American justice are often unclear and blend together. I get that it’s easy to blame the police here, but they honestly have pretty much nothing to do with it. I say that as someone who considers LAPD and LASD hostile entities in the general case, to reinforce for you that this is just a misunderstanding of how arrest and charging works in the US (it’s common).
intrepidhero 5y ago
When I first read the headline I thought it meant people were stealing trains and using them to threaten public safety. I'm glad it's not about that but certainly a more exciting story.
manuelabeledo 5y ago
In the developed world, this seems to be a problem only in the US. Perhaps the issue is more the rising inequality, forcing some people to commit crimes?
- MomoXenosaga 5y ago
  Not true. Flash mobs stealing things is not a US exclusive thing.
  - manuelabeledo 5y ago
    At this scale, it looks like it. I haven’t been able to find any examples that compare to this one, but I admit that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
- jrnichols 5y ago
  the pervasive internet attitude that "it's just stuff, who cares? it's insured" certainly isn't helping matters either.
  - manuelabeledo 5y ago
    It is just stuff. I would like to see more approaches like "why are people stealing stuff?", and I lean towards thinking that these people just don't have their basic needs fulfilled and they resort to crime.
    - jrnichols 5y ago
      It's not just stuff and that is a cavalier dismissal of what is a huge problem. > I would like to see more approaches like "why are people stealing stuff?", and I lean towards thinking that these people just don't have their basic needs fulfilled and they resort to crime. They have their basic needs fulfilled. Crime is a way easier means to an end. They can make more selling stolen merchandise than they'd make in a 40 hour work week. They steal stuff because it's thrilling and it's easy money.
jeffbee 5y ago
What you're reading here is quite literally a joint press release between Pinkertons and the LA and LA County cops, together an axis of vile mendacity. I would read this as dispassionately and skeptically as possible.
zg35lk 5y ago
steve76 5y ago
joe_the_user 5y ago
"In mid-December 2021, Adrian Guerrero, Union Pacific’s general director for California and Pacific Northwest operations, wrote to Gascón asking him to reconsider his December 2020 Special Directive 20-07, directing county attorneys to decline to prosecute or dismiss before arraignment charges including trespassing; loitering; being in possession or under the influence of drugs, drug paraphernalia, or alcohol; and making criminal threats or resisting arrest."[1] So, what I would deduce from some googling is that LA prosecutors are essentially declining to prosecute the homeless camping on railroad tracks and UP at least thinks this gives criminals an opportunity to act. While the idea of "not criminalizing homelessness" is appealing, what is really needed is solving the problem because a permanent gray area of homeless illegally camping somewhere sooner or later will provoke a reaction. [1] https://www.city-journal.org/union-pacific-facing-rising-rail-thefts-in-los-angeles https://www.city-journal.org/union-pacific-facing-rising-rai...
- majormajor 5y ago
  I don't see anything there about directing anyone to not prosecute theft. So are they not catching anyone in the act, or what?
  - JudasGoat 5y ago
    I used to "find" scrap metal in the rail yards. The only real tool the railroads have to prevent theft is to enforce trespassing laws.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
I think this could be fixed easily - no cash bail first time, cash bail if you are caught again.
notananthem 5y ago
Kinda expected YC crowd to cheer for more policing. This is a failure of UP to protect their cargo. All the more reason aging slow existing train freight infrastructure is keeping America behind. Invest in new train infrastructure NOT made by Elon Musk.
jefurii 5y ago
Before Recent Wave of Train Cargo Thefts, Union Pacific Laid Off Unspecified Number of Its Railroad Police Force https://www.lataco.com/union-pacific-theft-police-laid-off/ https://www.lataco.com/union-pacific-theft-police-laid-off/ "A Union Pacific worker, who asked to remain nameless, [said that] the number of patrolling officers has been cut from 50 to 60 agents to eight, which the worker thinks has led to an increase in train robberies."

259 points by tomohawk 5y ago

• On average, over 90 containers compromised per day. • In partnership with Los Angeles Police Department (LAPD), Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department (LASD), and California Highway Patrol (CHP) we estimate over 100 arrests have been made of active criminals vandalizing our trains. UP alone making several dozens of arrests. • With our law enforcement partners we have deterred hundreds of individuals from trespassing and vandalizing our trains. • Of all those arrests, however, UP has not been contacted for any court proceedings. The damning thing here is the lack of prosecution for the arrests that have happened. It's a clear message to offenders that they can continue what they are doing with no serious consequences. However, a figure that's missing from Union Pacific's letter is how much (or how little) UP has invested in security measures since the theft wave began, or relative to another time period.

Symbiote 5y ago
> UP by its own effort and cost enlisted additional and existing Special Agents across the UP system to join our local efforts with LAPD, LASD and CHP to help prevent the ongoing thefts. We have also utilized and are further exploring the use of additional technologies to help us combat these criminals through drones, specialized fencing, trespass detection systems, and other measures.
csdvrx 5y ago
- Ma8ee 5y ago
  /s?
  - csdvrx 5y ago
    - AlexandrB 5y ago
      I agree with you as long as we apply the same standard to "white collar crime". Embezzle money from your company? Off to death row for you. Defraud investors? Death row. Run a Ponzi scheme? Death row. Alternately, give defrauded investors the same rights you suggest for property owners so they can hunt the guilty party themselves.
      - csdvrx 5y ago
        I love of whenever we talk about "theft", people cry "but what about wage theft". There's a clear difference in scope, amount, consequence (...), so much that except having the same letter in the same order, it's not the same thing. "Wage theft" means a small underpayment, which is (1) directly and immediately found, (2) can be put to a stop right after it happens by going to another job, (3) carries legal financial consequences to someone with deeper pocket, the employer (and I'm not even talking about negative press) "Theft" in the case of the attacked trains is for much larger amounts, is apparently unstoppable and carries 0 consequences to the perpetrators - should they even be found, charged and convicted, I don't think their estate would be able to cover even a fraction of the losses. To your favor, you didn't mention "wage theft" (yet), but here, you're doing essentially the same thing with a bunch of similar words. FYI, all that you mention carry heavy consequences: just look at how it went for Holmes or Madoff.
- pempem 5y ago
  !!!
integrii 5y ago
Seems like you're suggesting that private security should be an expected cost because the state will no longer protect you like they have been for many years...
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  I certainly did not expect the libertarian ideal of depending for protection wholly on private security, instead of on the state, to be first implemented in Los Angeles, of all places.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    UPs police force is not private security in the usual sense. Those in CA are California peace officers, and all of them are also specially federally empowered for interstate operations. And this isn't new, major railroads have had these publicly-empowered police forces since the late 19th century.
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  UP already has their own police. Why bother investing in more, if none of the arrests result in charges? It's pointless to spend more.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Why bother investing in more, if none of the arrests result in charges? UP is not complaining that none of the arrests result in charges. (They are complaining that the DA is settling for plea deals to lesser charges than they would prefer and not trying to employ cash bail as pre-conviction punishment for disabling [by incarceration of those who can’t afford it] suspects and deterring potential future criminals instead of not using it when it is not necessary to secure appearance of a suspect legally presumed innocent.) Also, it's well known that sufficiently visible security is a deterrent to crime, which is better than after-the-fact arrests, so an eruption in undeterred crime is evidence of a need for more and more visible security.
mc32 5y ago
On face value that’s pretty fanning of the current prosecutorial office. It’s a discouraging dereliction of duty to not follow up and prosecute these criminals. These thefts not only hurt the companies but also hurt each buyer who will have to pay indirectly for the added cost of operations. As I mentioned in the previous thread, we may yet see a Pinkerton service rise to meet this need.
- Miner49er 5y ago
  > These thefts not only hurt the companies but also hurt each buyer who will have to pay indirectly for the added cost of operations. Is this damage more then the cost of prosecuting and punishing the thieves? If not, it's not worth it.
  - pempem 5y ago
    Well, first they need to be caught and brought up on charges. Then they can be prosecuted. The bigger question is where even is the LAPD?
    - fennecfoxen 5y ago
      Per the letter, the question is NOT, "where even is the LAPD." It is, "where are the Los Angeles County prosecutors?" And the answer Union Pacific provides is, "letting these people who are arrested go free with a plea deal for simple trespassing."
    - zaroth 5y ago
      They are being caught and arrested. Then the DA lets them go, so they go back and steal more, and spread the word that nothing happens even when you do get caught.
  - mc32 5y ago
    Non-prosecution sends a signal "it's okay, we will not prosecute you". Less scrupulous people learn there is no prosecution and this becomes a routine drag on rail commerce. In Nigeria you get people who hijack petrol transportation --often times they lead to fiery explosions. It's not a path we should want to devolve to. The middle ages had highway men. We want to avoid going backwards.
pempem 5y ago
Maybe its because the LAPD has such a little budget? /s.
- Rebelgecko 5y ago
  Even though LAPD's budget is drastically lower per-capita and per-area than other major cities, it sounds like a bigger problem is that even when someone is arrested they can be let out of jail same day with no bail for even repeat offenders.
millzlane 5y ago
>The damning thing here is the lack of prosecution for the arrests that have happened. It's a clear message to offenders that they can continue what they are doing with no serious consequences. Also missing, is the figure of number of arrests that haven't been prosecuted. That data should be out there somewhere. It's interesting that no data to prove the theory has surfaced.
- nathanvanfleet 5y ago
  That's what they are saying, the government isn't supplying them with that data.
  - lazyasciiart 5y ago
    All prosecutions are public data. So the government may not be serving it up on a plate, but they also must not be trying to find out.
- pmorici 5y ago
  UP implies they believe there have been zero prosecutions. If there were any resulting from the arrests they made they would have had to be involved as witnesses and they say they haven’t been contacted in that capacity.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > UP implies they believe there have been zero prosecutions Under the California Victim's Bill of Rights they have a right to information on this on request (but they don't have to be provided with it proactively), so if they merely “believe” this but can point to neither concrete information or a failure to respond to inquiries, it means they have chosen not to ask to avoid their belief being proven wrong. But, anyway, they don't say that, so its immaterial: they specifically acknowledge prosecutions and convictions, they are just upset that the DA is taking plea deals to charges they feel are insufficiently serious rather than expending more resources seeking convictions (and risking acquittals) on more serious charges. (They also specifically are validating the argument of anti-cash-bail advocates by portraying cash bail as a punitive and disabling measure against unconvicted suspects rather than a means of securing appearance.)
mikewarot 5y ago
almost_usual 5y ago
Interesting they choose the word vandalism here. I hope they’re distinguishing between someone doing graffiti and someone breaking into a container and stealing what’s inside it. Before anyone jumps to “well broken window” freight graffiti has been a thing for like 40 years and has no correlation to container robberies.
- mleo 5y ago
  The use of “vandalism” vs theft seems to be perspective. The container was vandalized to access. The actual theft of items within is secondary. Related use. I had a storage space where the company said there was vandalism in the area of my locker and I should come check. Sure enough it was broken into and items had been taken. As far as storage company was concerned, it was vandalism of their property and theft of mine.
  - lazyasciiart 5y ago
    It's at best accidental lack of precision. It is inarguable that graffiti is vandalization: it is possible but unlikely that they are using it here only to describe a subset of the activities it means.
- beerandt 5y ago
  Theft before the actual thing is taken would require at minimum a proof of intent, and could still be problematic. So vandalism is the "easiest" charge for those caught in the act. And gets around one potential argument from prosecutors that charges should be dropped.
- mc32 5y ago
  They forgot destruction of property. They had to break in to get to the goods.
AlexandrB 5y ago
Am I missing something or is the first bullet point completely orthogonal to the second. They talk about train thefts on the rise but then cite a statistic about "over 100 arrests" for vandalism? How are these related? What are the stats for arrests for theft?
- greggman3 5y ago
  As pointed out on other comments. From the train's POV the train was vandalized but nothing that belongs the the train company was stolen. The stuff that was stolen belong to other entities. But yes, it would be good to know stats for both
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > From the train's POV the train was vandalized but nothing that belongs the the train company was stolen. Trains are inanimate and don't have a POV, and from the perspective of UP (which has a police force notionally charged with addressing crimes on railway property, not merely crimes against the railway), that’s not correct if an actual theft occurred.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ethbr0 5y ago
> But even with these expanded resources and closer partnerships with local law enforcement, we find ourselves coming back to the same results with the Los Angeles County criminal justice system. Criminals are caught and arrested, turned over to local authorities for booking, arraigned before the local courts, charges are reduced to a misdemeanor or petty offense, and the criminal is released after paying a nominal fine. These individuals are generally caught and released back onto the streets in less than twenty-four hours. From experience inside a major retail chain at the national level, this is the story of retail theft in general. The interface between private security and public law enforcement is... inefficient. (To put it nicely) "Not caught here" is a real thing. Private security lays a theft case in law enforcement's lap, oftentimes better documented than police cases, and the collective response is a yawn and inaction. And while I'm a proponent of justice reform, theft is theft. We're not talking about busting someone for personal amounts of marijuana. This is forcefully choosing to break into a secure container, for purposes of stealing items of value for sale. With the resulting costs being borne by everyone who uses the system.
- chris11 5y ago
  > From experience inside a major retail chain at the national level, this is the story of retail theft in general. I thought it was common at some places, like Target, to track but not report shoplifting until it qualified for a felony. Then once the shoplifter had stolen enough to be charged for a felony they were prosecuted.
  - pkaeding 5y ago
    Years ago, I worked for a regional discount retail chain, in the Loss Prevention department (my job was installing cameras and other low-voltage systems). The focus of LP there (and probably at most retail places) was internal theft. They would try to discourage shoplifting, but employees stealing represented much bigger losses. I remember hearing one of the guys reviewing video tape saying that they were tallying up a bunch of thefts (in this case, the subject was a cashier, and he was pretending to ring up items for his friends and family, but not really scanning it). The kid was 17, going to turn 18 in a couple weeks. The guy reviewing the tape joked about how the tally would be $1000 shortly after his birthday, when he would be an adult: "Happy birthday, you're under arrest for grand larceny". It was sickening. I enjoyed my job, and I didn't mind if criminals were caught and prosecuted, but the attitude that led to jokes like that didn't sit well with me.
prawn 5y ago
I wondered if some of the issue is how people are caught? Are they getting caught with obvious evidence breaking into the containers, or are most getting caught scrounging through packages on the ground?
kingcharles 5y ago
From someone who has extensive experience in the criminal justice system, I wonder how much of this is because they have no evidence of theft by the persons they arrest? It's one thing to arrest someone who is clearly on your property* and the officer can testify they found Person X where they shouldn't be, but unless the officer sees X pulling a package out of a railcar and can specifically identify them, it gets tricky to find them guilty of the larger crime at trial. Almost certainly though, multiple misdemeanour convictions for trespassing are eventually going to elevate to a felony. It is possibly still worth it though. Having been locked up I know many people who would commit what most people would consider petty robberies and just suck up the months and years of being locked up. People become inured to incarceration. The first time you're locked up you're scared and you don't know what's going on. The second time: you walk in like a boss and all your friends are already there. A lot of the people doing this have been programmed by their peers to see regular jobs as something suckers do, and that crime is the "cool" way to make money. Most of them are not doing it because jobs are unavailable, just that they don't want a job. A lot of them would work for themselves though if they could find the right industry and were given appropriate help to see it through and stay on the correct path. * trespass isn't always a crime the first time you are caught somewhere you should not be - often it requires the property owner to tell you that you are not welcome to return before the statute activates
bluedino 5y ago
Remember all the smash and grab retail lootings? The Target store that was burned down? It was all on video. Hundreds participating. How many prosecutions came out of that?
- jrockway 5y ago
  It takes time and money. The idiots that wrecked up the Capitol and tried to kill a sitting Vice President (all while recording thousands of hours of video footage) are just now being prosecuted, a year later.

x3n0ph3n3 5y ago

Related discussion: Train burglaries in LA - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930970

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

threatofrain 5y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29963125 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29963125 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930970 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930970

millzlane 5y ago
Think OP is correcting his post from yesterday. Where a commenter suggest he link to the letter instead of the opinion piece. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29962006 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29962006
fennecfoxen 5y ago
+ photo gallery attached to the LA Times coverage of the same: the train tracks are just littered with piles of torn-open shipping boxes https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-01-15/photos-robbing-trains-no-longer-exclusive-to-western-movies-as-tracks-near-dtla-littered-with-pilfered-e-commerce https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2022-01-15/photos-r...
- exhilaration 5y ago
  Don't miss these pictures, folks!
  - Qub3d 5y ago
    Jeez, talk about dystopian: https://archive.fo/32Oxe/100c8558eb486a340a554a583e45f49d291b7c4b.webp https://archive.fo/32Oxe/100c8558eb486a340a554a583e45f49d291...
    - muzz 5y ago
      "Visible" might be a better word. Far more dollars are stolen from bank accounts, wages, etc. but there are no striking photos of that.
      - 5y ago

Overtonwindow 5y ago

IANL: What is the rules for use of force for railroad police, or railroad authorities protecting cargo? It seems people are breaking into these cars without fear of force, or prosecution. Combined, those are like a powder keg of lawlessness.

asdff 5y ago
It would be a bad idea to use force against train robbers. They would just start packing guns themselves. Often times these robberies are coordinated by organized crime who control robbery rights over certain sections of track.
- integrii 5y ago
  Are you suggesting people should not defend property because the attackers will just escalate force and continue their crimes? Then by that logic, I now understand the push to reduce the punishment of so much crime.
- treeman79 5y ago
  Basic criminals don’t like being shot. Large reason why gun free cities are so dangerous.
  - Ma8ee 5y ago
    Are gun free cities more dangerous? Could you provide a source for the claim?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - treeman79 5y ago
      Look at Chicago. Google suppresses nearly all pro gun or right wing content, so searching on mobile is difficult.

fuzzer37 5y ago

>we estimate over 100 arrests have been made of active criminals vandalizing our trains. I think the graffiti on trains looks cool. Much nicer looking than the logos on the side.

ohCh6zos 5y ago
I can't stand graffiti anywhere because it implies a lack of respect for those around you.
- nopenopenopeno 5y ago
  I agree. Advertising has gotten out of hand. It is insulting to the citizens of our society, and often outright dishonest as well. The advertising industry should be illegal.
  - ketralnis 5y ago
    I think you're trying to be ironic but... yes. Absolutely. Third parties trading money with each other for my attention is insulting and dishonest.
    - nopenopenopeno 5y ago
      I am being dead serious.
  - prawn 5y ago
    I'd include tagging within a broader term of advertising.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  Would you apply this same standard to wearing a mask during a pandemic? How about being vaccinated?
- wolverine876 5y ago
  What I see is someone taking ugliness and artlessness and creating beauty.

andjd 5y ago

> On average, over 90 containers compromised per day. > 160% increase in criminal rail theft Combining these statistics indicates that UP was experiencing over 56 containers compromised per day before the policy change. Compare that with the almost 50,000 containers daily that flow through the Ports of LA and Long Beach. I don't know what percentage of that UP handles, but I think it's safe to say that even 90 containers is a small fraction. UP has insurance, and, I'm sure treats a small percentage of thefts as the cost of doing business. UP can increase their investment in securing their trains and property. The alternative is the taxpayer spending a lot of money on police and incarceration. The US's incarceration rate is ridiculously higher that all other advanced economies. We can probably find better things to spend all that money on.

DantesKite 5y ago
The US justice system is the best in the world and one of the reason's why capitalism has flourished so well here. It is by no means perfect, but a free market only works when the rules are enforced. Giving up on crime doesn't strike me as a sensible solution for any community. See San Francisco et al.
- throwaway946513 5y ago
  > The U.S. justice system is the best in the world, and one of the reasons... I'm sorry, but this is the first time I've heard such a statement, and would like to know more.
- gunfighthacksaw 5y ago
  The shariah justice system is the best in the world and one of the reason's why Islam has flourished so well there. It is by no means perfect, but a pious society only works when the rules are enforced.
  - solumos 5y ago
    I'd rather live under sharia law than anarchy

newbamboo 5y ago

“all those arrests, however, UP has not been contacted for any court proceedings.” They’ve tried to recall gascon already for this, but the voters want him and his policies. If UP doesn’t like it they should bypass LA. It’s a sinking ship anyway, politely asking for “leadership” is laughably naive. California has one party for all intents and purposes and voters are too afraid because the elite tell them it’s too dangerous to vote outside The Party.

01100011 5y ago
Well, I think you also have to recognize that a lot of non-Democrats running for offices in CA are... batshit crazy. Then again, you'd have to be to think you have a chance at winning in this state. I have to think there will be some point at which the voters will have had enough. Maybe it will be the mandatory 3rd bin for organic waste... maybe it will be single payer health care... Hard to say. FWIW, I'm not opposed in theory to either separation of organic waste or single payer health care, just the ways in which CA is likely to implement them. That's the thing that has kept me in CA so far. I agree in principle with many things. I'll even admit Chesa Boudin has some fair points about criminal justice reform. That said, there is a gross impracticality to the implementations of many pieces of Progressivism that CA Dems refuse to acknowledge.
- the_only_law 5y ago
  > Well, I think you also have to recognize that a lot of non-Democrats running for offices in CA are... batshit crazy. This is the problem with the US. I get to pick from incompetent idiots or deranged idiots. I’ll continue just to sit out.
- newbamboo 5y ago
  Political outsiders are always called crazy and/or incompetent, and since the parties can control reality via their media influence everyone accepts the narrative. Arnold Schwarzenegger was supposed to destroy the state, Ross Perot was mocked as a crazy incompetent, Ralph Nader etc… Always the same narrative. But the reality is, the stars of both political parties are, in many cases, crazy or incompetent themselves. Many examples. Some of the top party figures are starting to suffer from dementia and literally have had episodes, clear mental lapses, while speaking publicly. Despite the recorded evidence, the average news watching voter is convinced that political outsiders, even those who have had long successful careers in some competitive field outside politics (say brain surgeon or ceo) cannot perform similar duties because they don’t have the party’s endorsement. Party endorsement is not evidence of sanity or competent leadership.

cjbgkagh 5y ago

I've had 3 of 3 packages go missing in the last two months, all traveling via train through L.A. Either I'm rather unlucky or the thefts are rather thorough. I see some people complaining about their packages being stolen, but if the thefts are that thorough I would expect to see many more. My conspiracy brain can't help but imagine the possibility that discussion of this is being gently suppressed because business don't want people to stop buying things. I've had to stop buying things for now. I hope this is properly resolved soon.

bhelkey 5y ago
> I've had 3 of 3 packages go missing in the last two months Did the packages get replaced?
- cjbgkagh 5y ago
  Refunds / replacements are in progress. I think customer service is a bit stretched at the moment. I'm not sure about the law but I think you have to receive the item to be considered to have taken delivery.
  - bhelkey 5y ago
    I see, I guess I figured that the merchant would detect that the package was never delivered and just ship another product on their end. Maybe I was a bit optimistic.
    - cjbgkagh 5y ago
      They are smaller boutique vendors and USPS and FedEx still have the packages as 'in transit'. Only the first package is considered lost by USPS and that was after 6 weeks of no updates and two escalations. At that time I had no idea train thefts were going on. The goods are expensive and low margin. I imagine it's not typically worth insuring though as it would normally be worth playing the odds. I would imagine having so much systemic theft at the same time would be crushing such vendors.

thebeardisred 5y ago

Seems like they should have re-titled the PDF (or not saved a default title in the client): "PREPARED FOR REVIEW/APPROVAL BY John Venice and Adrian Guerrero 5/14/18"

gruez 5y ago
>5/14/18 it was approved... 3 years ago?
- sbierwagen 5y ago
  Somebody edited an existing letter to make this, for whatever reason.

BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 5y ago

UP needs to set up a fenced off freight yard in the middle of the desert with armed guards patrolling the perimeter and manning the entrances. Use Budd cars to bring in the employees. That was done in Toronto when the freight yards were moved from downtown to the boonies.

chroem- 5y ago
Alternatively, California could stop speedrunning a Somalia-style collapse of rule of law.
- seattle_spring 5y ago
  I'm gonna have to say that's just a bit of an exaggeration.
  - e4e78a06 5y ago
    Perhaps not Somali civil war level failure, but taxes keep going up while government keeps becoming more ineffective. Government concern for personal safety and property keeps going down. I personally no longer feel safe going outside my $3000/mo apartment after dark despite being a tall man because there are mentally deranged homeless who, quite literally, roam the streets attacking vulnerable people (my wife was assaulted by one and police didn't care), and frequent reports of robbery at gunpoint. Prices in stores in downtown are 2x what they are in nice suburb areas an hour's drive away because of unprosecuted theft. It is literally cheaper for me to _order Instacart and tip a driver_ than it is to purchase from local grocery stores. And what are my elected politicians doing during this time? Sending out emails to their constituents about "mitigating inequity" in how roads are resurfaced and renaming manhole covers.
    - pueblito 5y ago
      $3,000 a month apartment surrounded by homeless people feels like a serious income distribution problem

trembonator 5y ago

friendlydog 5y ago

toptal 5y ago

This says it all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsipYHlah6s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsipYHlah6s

destitude 5y ago

So in other words no matter how much security UP puts in place it is pointless because they same people they turn over to police for prosecution will be right back tomorrow. Other option is then physical barriers which doesn't really seem feasible. So I can see why they are trying to figure out if they can just avoid the area entirely.

Mountain_Skies 5y ago
In another article it was mentioned that some cars are being welded closed because locks aren't enough to keep thieves out. So now it's a question of if the thieves show up with something to cut through the welds and if that extra time and effort will be deterrent enough.
- beerandt 5y ago
  And do welded doors become a signal for "valuable contents"?

sfifs 5y ago

I think increasingly that people in western societies are misunderstanding (and electing people to positions of power who misunderstand) the big picture purpose that law enforcement and justice system has played throughout civilized history. The primary purpose is to promote economic growth by reducing societal costs by deterring crime and fraud (including 'civil' fraud like breaking contracts) in an orderly manner. The purpose is deterrence and without effective deterrence, costs of "lack of trust" drive economic inefficiency that are felt both at macro level and individual level. Where I live, people routinely leave bicycles and scooters outside when running errands, routinely take public transport and walk at any time of the day or night without fear and routinely leave delivery packages for collection at the doorstep just to give a few examples because the crime rate is low given strong deterrence. All this translates to lower costs individually, lower pollution, more efficient logistics leading to lower economic overheads and also a healthier than average population (exercise while taking public transport) leading to lower long term health care costs which enables the government to invest in more welfare state like measures wich in turn reduces crime further. Note however that social justice and welfare goals are advanced by other organizations in the Government, not the law enforcement organization. Without deterrence, you get a negative spiral as we're beginning to see in cases like this where the purpose of justice system is being subverted to goals other than deterrence. These other goals are very important, but they need to be achieved by other independent organizations so you don't get the carrot at the cost of the stick being broken.

JPKab 5y ago
This is common sense, except to the foolish activists who believe everything Rousseau ever wrote.
heavyset_go 5y ago
> Where I live, people routinely leave bicycles and scooters outside when running errands, routinely take public transport and walk at any time of the day or night without fear and routinely leave delivery packages for collection at the doorstep just to give a few examples because the crime rate is low given strong deterrence I've lived in places like this, as well. Except it didn't come down to the existence of the police, but the fact that it was a middle to upper middle class neighborhood where nobody had a reason to commit petty theft. Deterrence wasn't a factor at all with the people that lived there when it came to buying and selling drugs like cocaine, for example. Truthfully, I think most property crime would be stopped in its tracks if people didn't have economic reasons to commit petty theft. > I think increasingly that people in western societies are misunderstanding (and electing people to positions of power who misunderstand) the big picture purpose that law enforcement and justice system has played throughout civilized history. If we look at the history of policing in the US, we didn't have municipal police forces for quite some time. In the North in port cities, merchant owners would hire security at their ports, and decided that it would be cheaper to instead make it a government service that everyone pays for instead of just the merchants[1]: > In cities, increasing urbanization rendered the night-watch system completely useless as communities got too big. The first publicly funded, organized police force with officers on duty full-time was created in Boston in 1838. Boston was a large shipping commercial center, and businesses had been hiring people to protect their property and safeguard the transport of goods from the port of Boston to other places, says Potter. These merchants came up with a way to save money by transferring to the cost of maintaining a police force to citizens by arguing that it was for the “collective good.” In the South, policing rose out of gangs of slave patrols[1]: > In the South, however, the economics that drove the creation of police forces were centered not on the protection of shipping interests but on the preservation of the slavery system. Some of the primary policing institutions there were the slave patrols tasked with chasing down runaways and preventing slave revolts, Potter says; the first formal slave patrol had been created in the Carolina colonies in 1704. During the Civil War, the military became the primary form of law enforcement in the South, but during Reconstruction, many local sheriffs functioned in a way analogous to the earlier slave patrols, enforcing segregation and the disenfranchisement of freed slaves. Ultimately, the origins of policing in the US from wealthy owners wishing to secure their expensive assets from theft, destruction, or in the case of slaves, escape, and also not wanting to pay for that security themselves. Later those police forces served those same owners by serving as strikebreakers[1]: > For example, businessmen in the late 19th century had both connections to politicians and an image of the kinds of people most likely to go on strike and disrupt their workforce. So it’s no coincidence that by the late 1880s, all major U.S. cities had police forces. Fears of labor-union organizers and of large waves of Catholic, Irish, Italian, German, and Eastern European immigrants, who looked and acted differently from the people who had dominated cities before, drove the call for the preservation of law and order, or at least the version of it promoted by dominant interests. For example, people who drank at taverns rather than at home were seen as “dangerous” people by others, but they might have pointed out other factors such as how living in a smaller home makes drinking in a tavern more appealing. (The irony of this logic, Potter points out, is that the businessmen who maintained this belief were often the ones who profited off of the commercial sale of alcohol in public places.) [1] https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/ https://time.com/4779112/police-history-origins/

victorbstan 5y ago

I wonder if the US police in LA is starting to become like the local Mexican police, ie. corrupt and working with the criminals; where the "Federal Police" and then the Army has to step in to reign-in local police corruption. -- I say this because of the statement in the letter, where UP mentioned that they were never contacted in regards with any of the arrests made.

nxm 5y ago
No evidence of this, so I take it as nothing more than a conspiracy theory
- noah_buddy 5y ago
  You should look into the sheriff gangs of LA county. Most police departments have more than their fair share of criminals.
klurple 5y ago
They were never contacted in regards to court proceedings. That’s different and involves a charging decision by a prosecuting attorney, in this case Garcón or his staff. In the US you can be arrested, held, and prosecution declined. It happens routinely and the police have absolutely nothing to do with it (short of what they charge and allege informing the decision by the prosecuting attorney). UP is saying that LAPD/LASD and their own peace officers are making arrests and subsequently step two isn’t happening. They’re right, too. Declination of prosecution is the remedy specifically prescribed by 20-07 for some offenses, notably trespassing. Whereas before this was a subjective call by a prosecuting attorney (i.e., redirecting troubled folks to get care), Garcón has made it proscriptive with little regard for the circumstances. That’s what UP is fundamentally protesting here. In case it’s not clear, they’re barking at and low-key threatening Garcón with this letter, not the police (but it’s a rather weak threat; UP avoiding LA county doesn’t impact the DA nor county much). The two halves of American justice are often unclear and blend together. I get that it’s easy to blame the police here, but they honestly have pretty much nothing to do with it. I say that as someone who considers LAPD and LASD hostile entities in the general case, to reinforce for you that this is just a misunderstanding of how arrest and charging works in the US (it’s common).

intrepidhero 5y ago

When I first read the headline I thought it meant people were stealing trains and using them to threaten public safety. I'm glad it's not about that but certainly a more exciting story.

manuelabeledo 5y ago

In the developed world, this seems to be a problem only in the US. Perhaps the issue is more the rising inequality, forcing some people to commit crimes?

MomoXenosaga 5y ago
Not true. Flash mobs stealing things is not a US exclusive thing.
- manuelabeledo 5y ago
  At this scale, it looks like it. I haven’t been able to find any examples that compare to this one, but I admit that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
jrnichols 5y ago
the pervasive internet attitude that "it's just stuff, who cares? it's insured" certainly isn't helping matters either.
- manuelabeledo 5y ago
  It is just stuff. I would like to see more approaches like "why are people stealing stuff?", and I lean towards thinking that these people just don't have their basic needs fulfilled and they resort to crime.
  - jrnichols 5y ago
    It's not just stuff and that is a cavalier dismissal of what is a huge problem. > I would like to see more approaches like "why are people stealing stuff?", and I lean towards thinking that these people just don't have their basic needs fulfilled and they resort to crime. They have their basic needs fulfilled. Crime is a way easier means to an end. They can make more selling stolen merchandise than they'd make in a 40 hour work week. They steal stuff because it's thrilling and it's easy money.

jeffbee 5y ago

What you're reading here is quite literally a joint press release between Pinkertons and the LA and LA County cops, together an axis of vile mendacity. I would read this as dispassionately and skeptically as possible.

zg35lk 5y ago

steve76 5y ago

joe_the_user 5y ago

"In mid-December 2021, Adrian Guerrero, Union Pacific’s general director for California and Pacific Northwest operations, wrote to Gascón asking him to reconsider his December 2020 Special Directive 20-07, directing county attorneys to decline to prosecute or dismiss before arraignment charges including trespassing; loitering; being in possession or under the influence of drugs, drug paraphernalia, or alcohol; and making criminal threats or resisting arrest."[1] So, what I would deduce from some googling is that LA prosecutors are essentially declining to prosecute the homeless camping on railroad tracks and UP at least thinks this gives criminals an opportunity to act. While the idea of "not criminalizing homelessness" is appealing, what is really needed is solving the problem because a permanent gray area of homeless illegally camping somewhere sooner or later will provoke a reaction. [1] https://www.city-journal.org/union-pacific-facing-rising-rail-thefts-in-los-angeles https://www.city-journal.org/union-pacific-facing-rising-rai...

majormajor 5y ago
I don't see anything there about directing anyone to not prosecute theft. So are they not catching anyone in the act, or what?
- JudasGoat 5y ago
  I used to "find" scrap metal in the rail yards. The only real tool the railroads have to prevent theft is to enforce trespassing laws.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago

I think this could be fixed easily - no cash bail first time, cash bail if you are caught again.

notananthem 5y ago

Kinda expected YC crowd to cheer for more policing. This is a failure of UP to protect their cargo. All the more reason aging slow existing train freight infrastructure is keeping America behind. Invest in new train infrastructure NOT made by Elon Musk.

jefurii 5y ago

Before Recent Wave of Train Cargo Thefts, Union Pacific Laid Off Unspecified Number of Its Railroad Police Force https://www.lataco.com/union-pacific-theft-police-laid-off/ https://www.lataco.com/union-pacific-theft-police-laid-off/ "A Union Pacific worker, who asked to remain nameless, [said that] the number of patrolling officers has been cut from 50 to 60 agents to eight, which the worker thinks has led to an increase in train robberies."