85 ms·

Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

718 points by bmc7505 5y ago

eklavya 5y ago
With compose for desktop announced, I was wondering when a new interface would be unveiled. Looks like they are using the migration to the new stack to experiment with a lightweight alternative to vscode. I wonder if it also uses kotlin native and moves away from JVM, doesn’t seem likely since they say they are sharing code processing backend with IntelliJ.
- donatzsky 5y ago
  It uses a client-server architecture, with with code-completion and other IDE features provided by a server separate from the editor client. I suppose that means you might need the JVM for the IDE back-end, but there's no reason why the editor can't be native. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29378010 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29378010
  - eklavya 5y ago
    Thanks, sounds exciting. This definitely propels IntelliJ into the future. Beat of luck to them:)
- kaba0 5y ago
  I don’t think kotlin native would beat the JVM in performance though, only at memory usage. Not even Graal AOT beats it for long-running tasks and I imagine it has a bigger mindshare behind it.
curyous 5y ago
It is supposed to be fast, but starts up in “seconds”. Shame.
- mshroyer 5y ago
  VS Code also starts in "seconds" on my machine, so if that's what they're targeting it's probably a success.
  - davidkunz 5y ago
    Vim/Neovim is practically instant, everything else it too slow in my book.
    - hawk_ 5y ago
      Once vs code and similar are up, the observed latency in opening additional files is what matters to most devs though.
    - oblio 5y ago
      Considering the tools developers use in general (Visual Studio, VS Code, Eclipse, IntelliJ, Netbeans, various DB browsers, etc.), application start up time doesn't seem to be an important concern for the majority.
      - Osiris 5y ago
        My IDE stays open (I keep all the common projects I work on open and just switch between them as needed). I rarely reboot. Startup time is completely irrelevant.
      - iainmerrick 5y ago
        You typically leave an IDE open most of the time, and maybe start it up in the morning at most a few times a week. For that, a cold launch time of a couple of seconds (VS Code) is fine, tens of seconds (Eclipse, XCode) is annoying. Opening new files definitely needs to be instantaneous.
    - awild 5y ago
      On a given workday I always have at least one window of vscodr open that makes opening new files much faster than a cold start like vim et al are used
- greenmana 5y ago
  Doesnt' really matter in my daily life if some IDE takes 0.1 or 10 seconds to start, since it's done so rarely. Might be more annoying with an editor if you're opening files often, then it starts to add up. Or if the editor is slow with editing and scrolling big files, like VSCode is.
  - urthor 5y ago
    exactly this. I take 30 minutes to get into flow state, how long the IDE takes to start is irrelevant.
- benibela 5y ago
  On my old laptop, it took like 15 minutes to start IntelliJ IDEA
xyproto 5y ago
Fleet is not open source, offers little over VS Code and is not as fully featured as the full JetBrains IDE's. Who are intended to use this?
- samjmck 5y ago
  The program isn't even publicly available yet. How can you conclude that it provides little over VS Code? And why does it matter that it's not open source?
  - 5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
    > And why does it matter that it's not open source? I honestly find this question really weird. Do we really have to explain such basic things nowadays? It may not be important to you, it is extremely important to me, and (apparently) xyproto.
    - fxtentacle 5y ago
      And that's why you're not using Windows, Mac, Android, or iOS, but only Linux, correct? Mostly people want open source but they'll happily abandon it for convenience. That's how Gmail won over Dovecot.
      - esrh 5y ago
        That's exactly why, free/open source enthusiasts are just the minority type to prefer freedom or privacy over convenience.
- fxtentacle 5y ago
  People like me who like all the other JetBrains IDEs and have a toolbox subscription anyway.
- IceWreck 5y ago
  The non open source part is a bummer but its not Electron based. So its gotta be faster than VSCode.
tdrdt 5y ago
To me it sounds like this is used to test a rewrite of all their IDEs because it is written from scratch. I can imagine if this becomes a succes they will update all their IDEs or use Fleet as the new platform.
- sam_lowry_ 5y ago
  To me it sounds like they are trying to counter the assault of VSCode onto their market share.
- agilob 5y ago
  Over year ago JetBrains released a post showing they don't understand why VSCode eats their market: > Still, we don’t deny the information could be a bit skewed – even with the weighting we give to our survey results – given that this is from the JetBrains State of Developer Ecosystem survey, and one of JetBrains main products is IntelliJ IDEA. However, that is not to say that this is not totally unreasonable, as if we look at other surveys, IntelliJ IDEA is usually one the most used IDEs, and usually has around a 55-60% share of users. VS Code is growing which is concerning, not from a competitive point of view but actually from the point of view that there is clearly a lack of understanding of what an IDE gives you. VS Code is a code editor with some features that you’d find in an IDE, and extensions that can provide additional functionality – so if people are turning to VS Code for developing it may imply that developers don’t know what a fully-featured IDE can give them. In the web space it is understandable to use an editor as web developers are typically working with dynamic languages, and often use other tools like browser plugins to give them what they need. But in Java, especially professional Java, you really get a lot out of a good tool that has integration with the application server and you can really use the analysis and refactoring and everything. Specifically this part: > VS Code is growing which is concerning, not from a competitive point of view but actually from the point of view that there is clearly a lack of understanding of what an IDE gives you. https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2020/09/a-picture-of-java-in-2020/ https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2020/09/a-picture-of-java-in... People moved from IntelliJ to VSC because it was faster, simpler and language-agnostic, instead JetBrains blamed users for not using advanced features like CPU profiling which most people don't use daily. They are jumping on simple-editor train now. Better late than never
quiffledwerg 5y ago
I love Jetbrains products. I happily pay hard cash for what is my primary work tool …. a really capable IDE.
DeathArrow 5y ago
I would love the future IDEs to be fast with low footprint instead of slow monsters running Javascript in browser behind.
- amq 5y ago
  Is VS Code slow? I mean, Notepad is faster, but considering that VS Code is JS-based, it's actually fast and responsive.
tacone 5y ago
This file's contents may not be suitable for people under the legal age. Please confirm your birth date.
gigatexal 5y ago
Built from scratch ehh? I wonder what it’ll be priced at. It seems promising. DOA without vim bindings though.
- rk06 5y ago
  What? Vim bindings is not a deal breaker for majority of users. The decisive factor will be what does it bring over vscode?
  - gigatexal 5y ago
    > The decisive factor will be what does it bring over vscode? Hopefully a native, non-electron mess. I'm excited to check it out. Plugins should fix any holes with respect to vim mode ;-).
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > DOA without vim bindings though. The number of users pining for Vim and Vim bindings is greatly exaggerated.
  - johnchristopher 5y ago
    To my surprise, less than Emacs users https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#development-environments-and-tools https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#development-e... I found this group much more vocal with their org-mode.
  - gigatexal 5y ago
    Sure, for users who don't mind not having it. But for me I can't use anything without it. I vim all the things: my browser, my editor (vim of course), and will sure as shit shill for anything that makes more than a half baked effort to cater to my vim obsession. So for <i>me</i> it's a deal breaker, might not be for you.
  - 5y ago
coolgoose 5y ago
Vscode online pressure?
- himanshub16 5y ago
  definitely!
torginus 5y ago
I really hope it's not Electron-based.
- he_is_legend 5y ago
  Unlikely. The rest of their programmers toolset are mostly java based.
  - f311a 5y ago
    Google translate from a dev vacancy: You will be surprised, but we decided to create a new IDE from scratch and put together a bold team with a proven success track in creating tools inside JB. And right now we have a prototype and a bunch of bicycles. Our program consists of several parts that communicate with each other over the network. The first part is an editor that is written in a new cross-platform UI framework. When we made this framework, we were inspired by React.js and Swift UI. The second part is a small program written in Rust that tells about the arrangement of files on disk and starts processes. File watcher, process monitor and HTTP client in one binary. The third part is a server that analyzes the source code of the project. It can be IntelliJ, ReSharper, or LSP server. This architecture adds flexibility: if you run all the parts on one computer, you get a classic IDE. And if on different machines, it will be convenient to work in the cloud or in a container.
    - ac130kz 5y ago
      Now that's interesting, let's hope it's not immediate mode based and is closer to SolidJS (without Virtual DOM) than modern React, which clearly has no long-term future.
      - ushakov 5y ago
        they didn’t say it’s a JS framework though
      - drpotato 5y ago
        > modern React, which clearly has no long-term future Curious, why do you think that?
bennyp101 5y ago
I'm not sure what the use case is, for small tasks I have Sublime Text, for full on work, I have JetBrains. This /looks/ like a strange place between ST and VSCode
- creshal 5y ago
  Same. > For years folks have been asking us, “JetBrains, when will you create a lightweight editor?” I sure never did. If anything, I want their IDEs to be more involved and sophisticated. Otherwise I'm likely going to cancel our company subscriptions next year, VSCode is starting to overtake e.g. PyCharm in terms of developer comfort. So I really hope this is just a tech demonstrator to renew the architecture of their proper IDEs and they'll be picking up momentum on the latter as well.
  - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
    For sure. I like IntelliJ, all I want is for it to be snappier; it gets pretty laggy with bigger files (like, more than one screen), it seems to have to do a lot of work that interrupts the main UI thread when it comes to redoing syntax highlighting and error checking. I mean, the main reason why I'm not using vs code for most of my work is because it's cmd+click to go to definition isn't as good, auto/hotfixes aren't as good, and refactoring support is pretty much nonexistent.
    - kaba0 5y ago
      I don’t know why Jetbrains doesn’t already switch to a newer jdk. I found this tutorial (only the vm options part) to make intellij really snappy: https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-run-faster/ https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-r... It basically changes the jdk to version 16 (I used one from the openjdk website, not azul) where the new low-latency ZGC garbage collector is available and increases the default heapsize. Now I have a quite large project open with 1.5GB memory used, and it is really smooth all around with no stutters.
      - 5y ago
wokwokwok 5y ago
There’s a real opportunity here for JB. If they’re prepared to give this away for free, and make money off of upselling folk on hosted remote dev envs (or licensing the server side to cloud providers) then this could actually compete with vscode. They basically don’t have any other product that is competitive with vscode. …but, I’m skeptical they’re willing to make the jump to freemium based on their other SAS product offerings which have… hm… not been hugely lucrative.
- davidjytang 5y ago
  My company used to have JetBrains toolkit for every developer and we trialed VSCode for a year. There was no noticeable difference in productivity. We then switched to VScode and canceled all subscriptions to JetBrains because we have no more reason to pay JetBrains anymore.
- quanticle 5y ago
  They could compete with VSCode, but what would be their competitive advantage? Being a pale imitation of VSCode with fewer features and tied to an online offering that has less mindshare than Github doesn't seem to me like it's a winning strategy.
  - simion314 5y ago
    They managed to sell in the past a C# plugin for Visual Studio, so people paid money on Visual Studio and this company convinced them to pay more and buy a plugin for a Microsoft language and a Microsoft IDE, people paid because it is a great product (for their projects). IMO they for sure can improve on VS Code, I bet they could sell you plugins better then MS can create and I think this is because when you are closer to your user you focus on the important stuff and no dude with a vision pushes things into a shitty direction. From my daily experience I can oopen a file and see what parts of the code were created in VS Studio or other basic editors, they have linting errors all over the place, I am not sure if the defaults are shit or if the linters are shit but I can confirm I can tell what (JavaScript)code was not made with a good IDE. I worked in Visual Stduio, Eclipse ,Intellij, QtCreator, and VS Code , and I am paying for Intellij because it makes me more productive , this might not apply on your specific project or your personal workflow. P.S. I still use my terminal tools like cat,tail,grep, diff so I am not a guy that needs pretty GUIs and I run an old Kubuntu LTS so I am not the person that looks at software at some identity badge.
quanticle 5y ago
What can Fleet do that VSCode doesn't already do better? I'm looking at the architecture description [1], and it seems like it's set up almost identically to how VSCode handles remote editing and language servers. Sure, Fleet is integrated with JetBrains' Spaces, but will that ever stand up to Github's offerings? I use both VSCode and JetBrains' IDEs in my day-to-day work so I would consider myself as having one foot in either camp, but I'm really struggling to come up with anything positive to say about Fleet, and the description that they've posted isn't doing anything to help me with that. [1] https://www.jetbrains.com/fleet/#distributive https://www.jetbrains.com/fleet/#distributive
- wokwokwok 5y ago
  Well, I mean to be fair the coding services for most languages in vscode other than js (ie java, c, rust, python, go, php, c#, ruby specifically) suck totally compared to the JB tooling. Let’s not play “pretend vscode is amazing” here today. The plug-ins for many languages are of massively varying quality and some of them really suck. The only thing they having going for them is being free. So… It’s pretty questionable to say: > What can Fleet do that VSCode doesn't already do better? Obviously, support languages with the full range of JB tooling, that is categorically better than the pathetic support vscode offers for, say, c#. …but, those tools cost $$$, and if you mean, “is it worth paying for the things Fleet can do over vscode…?” Well… it’s hard to say. Probably not for most vscode users.
  - quanticle 5y ago
    >Well, I mean to be fair the coding services for most languages in vscode other than js (ie java, c, rust, python, go, php, c#, ruby specifically) suck totally compared to the JB tooling. I have to disagree. JetBrains' tooling is superior for Java and Kotlin. For C#, Visual Studio is pretty good these days, even without Resharper. For everything else VSCode is unquestionably better. I can just point VSCode at a directory full of Python files with a virtualenv, and VSCode just "gets it", and lets me jump right in to editing, with autocomplete and suggestions. With PyCharm, I have to manually configure the interpreter root, set the project root, and wait for it to do a bunch of indexing before I can do anything at all. Yes, once it's all set up, I have marginally better suggestions, but as VSCode's Python tooling gets better, that setup cost becomes less and less worth it. >The plug-ins for many languages are of massively varying quality and some of them really suck. Agreed, but that cuts both ways. I would argue that, at this point, VSCode's Calva plugin for Clojure is superior to IntelliJ's Cursive. Similarly, I found VSCode's Rust plugin to be easier to set up and get started with in a WSL environment than the Rust plugin for CLion. Sure, VSCode's support for Java is a garbage fire and its support for Kotlin is nigh non-existent, but as far as I'm concerned, both sides have pretty huge blind-spots when it comes to languages that are "second-class citizens" for their respective ecosystems. >Obviously, support languages with the full range of JB tooling, that is categorically better than the pathetic support vscode offers for, say, c#. Whether the tooling can be categorically better is difficult to say. After all, the architecture of Fleet is pretty much the same as the architecture of VSCode. They're both editors which use a client-server architecture to enable suggestions and remote editing. I'm not sure how much of JetBrains' IDE work will translate over, and I'm not sure how much of it they want to bring over. As I stated in my other comment [1], unlike Microsoft, JetBrains doesn't have anything except its IDEs. They don't have a cloud platform that is more important to them than IDE sales. The IDEs are everything to them, and instead of making the IDEs better they're off chasing taillights. This seems like a mid-2010s Mozilla maneuver (like FirefoxOS) and I hope it doesn't do as much damage to JetBrains as FirefoxOS did to Mozilla. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29377859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29377859
politelemon 5y ago
Looking through the features, and the similarity of the architecture, looks like this is meant to compete with VS Code. Even the Settings implementation has the same global/user/workspace hierarchy; there's the 'trusted' code concept too. The one thing that might make it stand out is the smart mode: lightweight editor by default, and enabling it brings in the heavier IDE features. Anecdotally I've stopped using Jetbrains IDEs due to the bloat factor and their relatively poor Linux support, where VSCode has been providing excellent support and still manages to stay lightweight (though, it's starting to get notification heavy, isn't it?). Fleet is aimed at people like us so I'm willing to give it a try, but expectations are low.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  What do you see as poor Linux support?
  - vially 5y ago
    Not op, but for me the lack of native Wayland support is a deal breaker. And running it through XWayland has various issues (focus is broken, issues with HighDPI screens, etc). If Fleet supports Wayland natively I might give it a try, otherwise it's dead on arrival for me.
    - kaba0 5y ago
      As far as I know jetbrains did start to write a wayland backend for sway. But it is most probably a project with very low priority.
  - politelemon 5y ago
    My mistake on the wording, I should have said "mediocre", perhaps. I can't edit the comment now, oops sorry. I am referring to lack of an installer, and also the default shortcuts which clash with the distro, and in general I've seen features come to Linux a lot later. So a better way to put it is that Linux feels like an afterthought to Jetbrains. I do follow and also raise issues you on YouTrack but find they often languish. Their IDEs are still overall pretty good, but I gravitate towards VS Code now.
tluyben2 5y ago
Little bit offtopic; I try jetbrains ide's every time I get a new laptop; lately Rider for a 1m+ LoC c# project on my 16gb m1. It is unusable. I like the features but it is so incredibly slow... and it gets even slower as the day goes on.
- bosie 5y ago
  Which bits are slow?
- gjvc 5y ago
  The culprit is the JDK11-based JBR. I was ready to dump JetBrains tools due to their lagginess, but with some deviousness (which might not suit you), I now have them running slipperier than a wet fish, by using JDK15/16 and JAOTC. Instructions are here: https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-run-faster/ https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-r... (I am very keen to tell people who are in the same despair as I was about how slow JetBrains apps are out of the box -- hope it's not considered bad form to link to one's own blog post about it.)
  - tluyben2 5y ago
    I will try this now; thanks for that!
    - gjvc 5y ago
      please email me if you have any corrections / suggestions for improvement for the instructions :-)
      - citizenmatt 5y ago
        Please note that the JBR is a custom build that contains a number of important changes and fixes, and it's not recommended to replace this. For M1 support, it's much better to use an M1 compatible JVM and .NET runtime. Rider 2021.2 is an Intel build, because when it was released there was no M1 compatible .NET Runtime. Rider 2021.3 has an M1 build, and makes a big difference. It's currently in preview (https://www.jetbrains.com/rider/nextversion/ https://www.jetbrains.com/rider/nextversion/) but will be released in the next week or so.
ungawatkt 5y ago
If this can be 90% of the basic VSCode editor experience then I'm interested. Full props to VSCode's more advanced workflows[0], but I've mostly bought into jetbrains for that use case at this point. If I can fill the basic slot with a jetbrains product it fits well into my goal of a uniform tooling experience across everything. Fingers crossed for a good product that'll push both it and vscode to be better. [0]I use vscode as a basic text editor that can handle lots of files in a multi directory workspace because it's fast at it, plus markdown rendering and some basic autocomplete. I don't use the debugging features, navigation, or anything similar in it, but like I said, I give it full marks for being capable there, it's just that's outside my use case.
ch_123 5y ago
I would love to see a version of this which can run on an iPad. Combined with the Magic Keyboard and it would make a nice code environment in conjunction with a server, or a cloud instance.
- technobabbler 5y ago
  I marvel at those of you who can code on an iPad. How are your eyes so good? I have a 32" monitor running at like 120% zoom and can still barely read the code. Curse my ancient eyes!
The_Colonel 5y ago
Space Fleet The goal is not to replace VSCode (hardly any money in there) or Intellij but to fill a gap in the Space offering. Space is IMHO JetBrain's main strategic initiative for the next 10 years (and very promising).
- azeirah 5y ago
  What do you mean by space?
  - dagmx 5y ago
    https://www.jetbrains.com/space/ https://www.jetbrains.com/space/
comprev 5y ago
Although I only speak English I greatly appreciate the fact their blog is available in so many other languages. Are their IDEs interfaces available in multiple languages too?
- nottorp 5y ago
  Sheesh. Please no. Note that i do speak several languages and my native language isnt English. Still, please dont complicate my programming with translations.
  - vbezhenar 5y ago
    I don't understand this approach. Obviously you'll have a choice. And those who struggle with English would love to have a choice as well.
    - 5560675260 5y ago
      Instead of learning english those people will now struggle both with english and programming, it is really a disservice. And when you'll collaborate with people using poorly translated terminology you'll struggle too.
      - dagmx 5y ago
        This is such a self centered colionolist attitude. Not everyone is going to be collaborating with foreigners. Even if a programming language is based around an English view, many company APIs may be based on their own primary communication language. Or it may just help someone who's still great at communicating in English to work more efficiently, when English isn't their primary language. Choice is good. Don't force your English centric world view on everyone.
        5560675260 5y ago
        It might look like there is a choice, but there is one good option and many bad ones. As long as english stays lingua franca, it will be the default language of every specs, docs and tool that matter. Even if development happens outside of anglosphere - nobody wants to get locked out of international community. There is just no getting away from this, unless Yellowstone eruption erases most of US and China gets to be a world leader. > Not everyone is going to be collaborating with foreigners Sure, someone can work for a pittance on an internal market. Handicapping you career like this is an example of a bad choice that I'm talking about. You wouldn't even be able to get a job in any decent company without going through an english language test first. This isn't obvious only if you yourself live in US and naively think that every other country is equally ripe with opportunity.
talhof8 5y ago
Oddly similar to vscode. Always loved Jetbrains' IDEs better. Hopefully they won't be stupid enough to deprecate them. I feel a much better effort would be to heavily work on optimizing performance for their existing suite of IDEs (or perhaps re-write them in Rust or something more suitable than Java/Kotlin).
mikkelam 5y ago
As a long-term pycharm user that recently migrated to VSCode im quite happy to see jetbrains building this. My main gripe with their stack is that I work across many languages and workflows and I like to use the exact same keymaps configurations and so on and pycharm just didn't give you that. I really love the idea of the virtualized file system allowing you to develop anywhere. I hope this works well. Comparably, VSCode's remote containers really do a poor job of allowing one to develop over ssh connections, which I do constantly.
- hanikesn 5y ago
  Why not use intellij ultimate? You can easily add all the language plugins (mod clion based ones).
  - mikkelam 5y ago
    Why? Because I'm a second class citizen in a java IDE. No thanks. The marketing is also quite clear on the target audience https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/features/ https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/features/
    - square_usual 5y ago
      Not really, tbh. IntelliJ Ultimate + the Ruby extension is RubyMine with a different name. Likewise with Go and JS, and I'm sure it's the same for php etc. but I can't speak for those. I've used this setup when I was testing out a bunch of languages for fun.
      - ta988 5y ago
        It is my experience as well. I only use CLion for Rust and C. All the rest (Python, TS, Kotlin, Ruby, Scala) I do in IntelliJ.
      - wilsonnb3 5y ago
        It is not true for C#, you need Rider for that. That is the only exception I am aware of, though.
ehnto 5y ago
I can see this being huge in a team with tight tool parity. I probably wouldn't use it as a freelancer, but remembering back to when I worked at an agency where we all had the same software and a pool of environments for all the different clients, this would have been the perfect tool. I know we all want to be special snowflakes, but my advice for a fast moving coherent team tooling includes having everyone on the same environment and using the same tools, so that you can share knowledge and master your tools as an individual and a team. Troubleshooting becomes much more reasonable, and we can all share the useful shortcuts we slowly build up over time. That's one of the downsides of tech moving so fast, no one masters anything, as a generalized industry we're eternally noobs.
KronisLV 5y ago
Huh, just the other day i was talking about how JetBrains products succeed in being some of the best IDEs around, but fail at the use case of just wanting to edit text files, where Notepad++, Visual Studio Code, Emacs, Sublime and vim could all be preferable to it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29362960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29362960 And then JetBrains come out with this... That's certainly pleasant to see!
- jatone 5y ago
  thats funny I've always found jetbrains IDE to be error ridden annoyances where I end up spending more time dealing with problems the IDE has caused than developing software.
  - wpietri 5y ago
    I think that's not the typical experience. I've certainly gotten occasional errors, but for me it's been a solid and reliable set of tools over the years. I started using it for Java, and have since used their Ruby, Python, and webdev versions happily for many thousands of hours.
    - jatone 5y ago
      it was primarily android and gradle issues honestly within its jetbrains IDE. jetbrains itself has performance issues, and you need to muck around too much to get them working properly. the JVM also causes issues resulting it having to tune the environment params to get decent performance. JB makes tons of assumptions and attempts to be helpful in ways that just are not; precompiling automatically, running massive indexing jobs causing the machine to bog down, assuming it has the right to modify your environment. these are all things I just do not want to think about when in essence I'm navigating directories and editing files with fancy hover tooltips. the standalone versions are okay usually depends on the language. I just want an editor with code linting regardless of the language. vscode in that respect has been a god send. install language server and you're done. performance is generally good and the background tasks seem thus far havent completely bogged down my machine.
yutijke 5y ago
I wonder if this a reaction to Microsoft gaining developer mindshare through VSCode, Github codespaces and other integrations around VSCode? It could also have been a response to requests for better remote development support due to the WFH situation in the last ~1.5 years. Don't know if there is a way for use to know which one though.
pjmlp 5y ago
Someone is getting too scared from VSCode and decided to counter-attack.
agluszak 5y ago
Does it have support for LSP?
- IceWreck 5y ago
  They said it does
- wluu 5y ago
  Yes https://www.jetbrains.com/help/fleet/1.0/architecture-overview.html https://www.jetbrains.com/help/fleet/1.0/architecture-overvi...
xvilka 5y ago
If it's in Java it's not exactly lightweight.
- vbezhenar 5y ago
  VSCode is Electron. You can't be more heavyweight.
  - bionade24 5y ago
    You never started any Java-based IDE, did you? You can smack tons of plugins into VSCode, enable them all and it still loads faster. Not using any of the above mentioned anymore, so I'm not teaming for one site.
    - kaba0 5y ago
      Even with all those plugins it does a fraction of what IntelliJ provides, so it is apples to oranges. Java itself doesn’t have that slow of a startup.
      - zxcq544 5y ago
        Java gui libraries are slow to start. Java starts fast but then GUI starts to load and it takes time.
chkhd 5y ago
I just hope the remote development features will actually work adequately in this. They tried to get that stuff working with existing IDEs multiple times [0][1][2][3], but they are all broken in their unique ways. Whenever I see them announce something new in the remote development space I always jump in right away and try it out, discover it is broken too, and then go back to using VS Code remote dev features. For local dev I still use JB stuff, but it is simply too broken and awkward for remote. [0] https://www.jetbrains.com/help/pycharm/configuring-remote-interpreters-via-ssh.html https://www.jetbrains.com/help/pycharm/configuring-remote-in... [1] https://lp.jetbrains.com/projector/ https://lp.jetbrains.com/projector/ [2] https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2021/11/29/introducing-remote-development-for-jetbrains-ides/ https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2021/11/29/introducing-remot... [3] https://www.jetbrains.com/code-with-me/ https://www.jetbrains.com/code-with-me/
- kombine 5y ago
  This is also the main reason I switched from PyCharm to VS Code at the start of the pandemic, which I think was really a really fortunate circumstance for the latter IDE. Even though PyCharm is a superior IDE, its remote development features were really broken, while VS Code nailed it.
- EdwardDiego 5y ago
  Code with me works okay. Far better than "Zoom share desktop".
- bobviolier 5y ago
  Out of curiosity, what doesn't work for you with Code With Me? The only thing I can think of is that the "client" also needs to have Code With Me installed, instead of a possible browser integration like VSCode has.
  - midoBB 5y ago
    Code with Me working or not is completely a tossup. I ended up paying for another service completely despite me having access to Code with me because it was never reliable. Me and the other user were having issues with it connecting 1/3 times and that's never fun having to waste time fixing a tool.
polycaster 5y ago
Is this the beginning of JetBrains trying to reiterate what MS did with VSCode + Copilot? After I spend a couple of weeks with Copilot I must say it works more or less as advertised (the exceptions are funny though) and there is no comparable product in sight. In the business of development tooling this is probably a feature not to miss in the long run if you prefer to stay in said business. I realize there is Copilote integration for JetBrains IDEs as well. But it's one thing to have access to a resource. And another to have control over it.
nervousDev 5y ago
Does the remote development focus mean that it will also provide a better WSL integration than the rest of the Jetbrains line-up? I see no mentions of WSL even though it might be a strong selling point specially if this is going to compete with VS Code.
ctvo 5y ago
> For years folks have been asking us, “JetBrains, when will you create a lightweight editor?” So we gave you anything but a lightweight editor. Lightweight editor implies speed, focused purpose, simplicity. What we get instead is remote collaboration, cloud functionality, and a distributed architecture. Does this thing support language server protocols for the listed language or will it continue to use Jetbrain's implementations?
withinboredom 5y ago
I struggle to see this as "lightweight," unless they mean "just on my machine." The maintenance burden to the organization looks quite ridiculous.
mgkimsal 5y ago
I don't think the relative ease of writing extensions for VSCode can be overlooked. There's a relative explosion of extensions addressing a lot of niche needs for various markets. My experience is that many of them aren't terribly good, or were good but are no longer maintained, etc. If/when JB makes it more straightforward to write extensions, there may always be a perception different. VSCode extensions in TypeScript will be easier for many curious folks to address vs Java/Scala-based plugins for JetBrains.
- FranksTV 5y ago
  Yeah but the quality is pretty mixed. A lot have performance problems, and maintenance is spotty.
  - mgkimsal 5y ago
    Touched on that with "My experience is that many of them aren't terribly good, or were good but are no longer maintained, etc" But... I realize now my comment was edited some during writing, and I merged two different directions I was heading in in to one comment, and didn't really finish either direction... You're correct that the quality is mixed at best, and... discovery is a pain. I regularly use phpstorm, and when working with others using vscode, I see they've gone through multiple php plugins for vscode, with varying success, and almost nothing comes close to the built-in functionality with JetBrains. The "live share" aspect of vscode is really nice (and 'codewithme' is OK too) but I've rarely been on a team where people ever paired enough to make it a useful or regular part of work. The 'remote' thing is where vscode has really seemed to rocket ahead in the last year or so (just my own observation from colleagues). I didn't understand the attraction, then... on thinking about it more, I guess I can somewhat understand the attraction, but it's not something I've felt compelled to pursue - it's felt like a step backwards. Maybe that will be something I revisit in 2022...
999900000999 5y ago
My issue has never been the actual cost of JBs products, but rather I have to go and justify myself to a manager to get a license. That's something which of course is not a factor when you're using open source stuff, but maybe I'll still buy this for my personal use. Vs code was supposed to be a lighter weight visual studio, but at this point it's hell bent on becoming just as bloated.
- nlitened 5y ago
  I suppose something like: “Hey pal, you pay me 400k a year. How about we spend 200 bucks a year to make me 10% more productive?”
  - davidjytang 5y ago
    10% more productive part is hard to prove. My company tried switching between webstorm and vscode, there was no discernible difference in team productivity.
  - 999900000999 5y ago
    It depends on your company. Many places will spend 500$ to decline a 200$ expense.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
forgotmypw17 5y ago
Yes! As someone who uses IntelliJ for writing primarily Perl, I welcome this.
MikusR 5y ago
"We're asked, over and over again, by the guidelines and by moderator comments, not to editorialize titles like this." tptacek
glun 5y ago
Whenever I try to use something other than IntelliJ (generally VS Code) I'm always struck by how awful the code completion and auto-imports are. I really hope we can get a lightweight editor with those two functions working properly. However, I don't see how you can do either of those features well without a lot of indexing of the codebase. And indexing is a major reason why IntelliJ so so clunky.
- fivea 5y ago
  Even though I wouldn't classify it as "awful", I do agree with the sentiment. Whenever I use Clion, I feel I need to have vscode also on the same project to mitigate the shortcomings of it's code completion and even search. Clion's support for CMake is particularly enfuriating, with it's propensity to actively replate a target's name with filenames, even if they do not match in caps, which makes absolutely no sense at all and feels it is doing it's best to get in the way and sabotage your productivity.
  - torginus 5y ago
    I have a bit of an off-topic question for you: I'm developing a single app for Windows in 3 languages: C#, C++, and Typescript using Visual Studio and I get excellent autocomplete/integration support. However I'm looking towards porting it to Linux, and I'm looking at some other IDE. Is there something that can handle building/debugging/autocomplete for these 3 that's not VS?
    - zenron 5y ago
      Try moving to VSCode on Windows, see if you can re-create your workflow there using plugins. Then, if you are successful, port your workflow to VSCode running in Linux.
    - kaba0 5y ago
      Perhaps also intellij with the language specific plugins? Separately, all these languages work fine. What’s the build tool?
Diesel555 5y ago
I keep seeing discussions on a full IDE vs an editor like VSCode. People are claiming VSCode is poor with autocompletions and other features only a full IDE can accomplish. I use Pycharm, Webstorm, and VSCode and I don’t see the huge difference. Is it more apparent on certain languages? They stated in their blog https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2020/09/a-picture-of-java-in-2020/ https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2020/09/a-picture-of-java-in... > In the web space it is understandable to use an editor as web developers are typically working with dynamic languages, and often use other tools like browser plugins to give them what they need. But in Java, especially professional Java, you really get a lot out of a good tool that has integration with the application server and you can really use the analysis and refactoring and everything. > VS Code is growing which is concerning, not from a competitive point of view but actually from the point of view that there is clearly a lack of understanding of what an IDE gives you So my main question is what do full blown IDEs do that an editor like VSCode cannot?
- ta988 5y ago
  Yes it is much more apparent with typed languages (and starts to show with typed Python as well).
- lukewrites 5y ago
  For my job I spend a lot of time working on a python package that uses threads. I’ve found that pycharm’s debugging tools are much better than vscode’s when it comes to threads. Also, auto imports are possible while I don’t think I’m able to do that in VScode. If someone can tell me how to set up VSCode to do this better, I would love to know. However I also need to be able to support other engineers who typically don’t work on the package but might need to drop into the code. It is much easier to tell them to download the community edition of pycharm and start working than it is to walk them through setting up another editor/ide. I don’t particularly like pycharm, and don’t use it when I don’t have to, but in this case it’s the right tool for the job. (So far.)
  - Diesel555 5y ago
    What do you mean by auto imports? If you type a function, type, or other token in VS Code that is not part of the scope, but exists in the environment, it will suggest and complete an import for you. At least for Typescript.
voidfunc 5y ago
Really weird name for an editor… I love IntelliJ and have paid for it for years now so I will probably check this out. VSCode has always felt too different.
tgv 5y ago
How does it compete against their other products? This seems to contain more than PyCharm and Gogland.
renewiltord 5y ago
I am thrilled to hear about the “develop locally, build remotely” feature.
cmrdporcupine 5y ago
If it's got IntelliJ's keybindings, I'm game. I've been a JetBrains user/customer for just under 20 years, and my brain is now hardwired for them. I've got a residual part of my brain that can do Emacs, but VSCode has never been pleasant for me, so I'm into this if they can do it right.
pizza 5y ago
While we’re all here, does anyone know how to make CLion a lot snappier? It seems to get reeally slow once you’re working on a pretty sizable codebase
- zxcq544 5y ago
  You can try these steps https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-run-faster/ https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-r...
ff23ff23333 5y ago
All java applications are horrible. DataGrip IDE from Jetbrains requires 966 MB memory just to work with a single (!!!) query file that has few lines of SQL. I also opened a huge project in Visual Studio 2022 that contains thousands of files and it only needs 735 MB memory (however previous versions were much slower and less memory efficient). So, avoid Java at any cost. Even JavaScript-based VSCode is much faster that any Java application.
abeppu 5y ago
Side question: One thing they highlight is that this supports live collaboration, including simultaneously working on the same files. Can anyone describe a productive way of working where that's helpful and not confusing? When would you choose to work that way rather than e.g. pair programming with a single IDE or splitting up work in different branches? Shared editing of a document seems mostly fine but occasionally confusing, but code has to be internally consistent, and it seems like two parties trying jointly complete a feature on the same copy of a repo might be slower than sequencing if A's intermediate changes can prevent B from building/testing what they just wrote, etc.
- chakkepolja 5y ago
  One use case is, pair programming for remote work.
- dagmx 5y ago
  I think your example of pair programming is where it's useful (and what they highlight in their current integration in their existing products) The idea being (no pun intended) that you can do remote pair programming
  - abeppu 5y ago
    I guess, my assumption is that for pair programming only one person ought to be actually writing code at a time, you should be looking at the same files at the same time, and you likely want to have some live voice and/or video channel open to discuss what you're doing, etc. So, I kinda think that as janky as it feels, screen share of a normal IDE over zoom ends up being a less disjointed experience than zoom + "collaborative" IDE where you might each be looking at different files or different parts of files.
    - dagmx 5y ago
      I think anyone should be able to take over as needed. Having done pair programming with coworkers over zoom, it's painful when I have to describe where I want them to click, and you have to resort to saying line numbers or describing constructs. In person you can gesture. That's the hole that collaborative editing can fill.
Shadonototra 5y ago
Hopefully they keep their promise and the IDE stays lightweight with time! And their debugger, i hope i can use it to debug native programs.. If the debugger is open, that alone will be massive That is one area where VSCode sucks, specially for native programs
baybal2 5y ago
How it is different from all other JetBrain IDEs?
siproprio 5y ago
omg I'm in love with jetbrains now
willangley 5y ago
I'm excited to see this and signed up for the preview. It's just in time for M1 Pro MacBooks. I spent hours stuck on the very first thing I tried coding on my new laptop because of a missing linux-aarch64 binary wheel on PyPI and had to figure out what was happening and how to build it from source. If this is priced close to JetBrains' other products and works decently well I could see myself signing up for it. The subscription would pay for itself in one averted experience like this a year :P
ksec 5y ago
Supported Language: Java, Kotlin, Python, Go, JavaScript, Rust, TypeScript, JSON Coming Soon: PHP, C++, C#, HTML Right now 307 Comments I am surprised no one has mentioned it. Ruby isn't even on the Coming soon list.
cryptonector 5y ago
Got vim keybindings?
projectileboy 5y ago
Reading this comment thread, it’s weird to me how entitled software developers seem to be about free tools. Is it really that insane to pay $100 (or whatever) for something you use all day every day?
ivanstame 5y ago
Not that exciting tbh. You showed nothing new and it's probably going to be paid software (closed source for sure), and comparing that to VSCode + Copilot (which is blowing my mind day by day) I don't see why would I switch. And that pair programming session is so faaaaaake.
alberth 5y ago
I still seem to be the only person I know using UltraEdit. Been using it 19 years now.
codeape 5y ago
I wish there was benchmarks for IDEs/editors, just like there are benchmarks for web frameworks (https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/ https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/ https://web-frameworks-benchmark.netlify.app/ https://web-frameworks-benchmark.netlify.app/). For instance, given some Java program/project: 1. Clock time from selecting "Run" in the IDE to first line written to stdout (to measure startup time) 2. Clock time from selecting "Debug" in the IDE to breakpoint hit and debugger able to inspect stack (with breakpoint on line N) 3. Total memory used with open project, with single editor window open. 4. Total memory used when breakpoint hit. 5. Clock time from selecting "Run tests" in the IDE to test results are displayed 6. Clock time from selecting "Debug tests" in the IDE to breakpoint hit and debugger able to inspect stack (with breakpoint on line N)

718 points by bmc7505 5y ago

With compose for desktop announced, I was wondering when a new interface would be unveiled. Looks like they are using the migration to the new stack to experiment with a lightweight alternative to vscode. I wonder if it also uses kotlin native and moves away from JVM, doesn’t seem likely since they say they are sharing code processing backend with IntelliJ.

donatzsky 5y ago
It uses a client-server architecture, with with code-completion and other IDE features provided by a server separate from the editor client. I suppose that means you might need the JVM for the IDE back-end, but there's no reason why the editor can't be native. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29378010 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29378010
- eklavya 5y ago
  Thanks, sounds exciting. This definitely propels IntelliJ into the future. Beat of luck to them:)
kaba0 5y ago
I don’t think kotlin native would beat the JVM in performance though, only at memory usage. Not even Graal AOT beats it for long-running tasks and I imagine it has a bigger mindshare behind it.

curyous 5y ago

It is supposed to be fast, but starts up in “seconds”. Shame.

mshroyer 5y ago
VS Code also starts in "seconds" on my machine, so if that's what they're targeting it's probably a success.
- davidkunz 5y ago
  Vim/Neovim is practically instant, everything else it too slow in my book.
  - hawk_ 5y ago
    Once vs code and similar are up, the observed latency in opening additional files is what matters to most devs though.
  - oblio 5y ago
    Considering the tools developers use in general (Visual Studio, VS Code, Eclipse, IntelliJ, Netbeans, various DB browsers, etc.), application start up time doesn't seem to be an important concern for the majority.
    - Osiris 5y ago
      My IDE stays open (I keep all the common projects I work on open and just switch between them as needed). I rarely reboot. Startup time is completely irrelevant.
    - iainmerrick 5y ago
      You typically leave an IDE open most of the time, and maybe start it up in the morning at most a few times a week. For that, a cold launch time of a couple of seconds (VS Code) is fine, tens of seconds (Eclipse, XCode) is annoying. Opening new files definitely needs to be instantaneous.
  - awild 5y ago
    On a given workday I always have at least one window of vscodr open that makes opening new files much faster than a cold start like vim et al are used
greenmana 5y ago
Doesnt' really matter in my daily life if some IDE takes 0.1 or 10 seconds to start, since it's done so rarely. Might be more annoying with an editor if you're opening files often, then it starts to add up. Or if the editor is slow with editing and scrolling big files, like VSCode is.
- urthor 5y ago
  exactly this. I take 30 minutes to get into flow state, how long the IDE takes to start is irrelevant.
benibela 5y ago
On my old laptop, it took like 15 minutes to start IntelliJ IDEA

xyproto 5y ago

Fleet is not open source, offers little over VS Code and is not as fully featured as the full JetBrains IDE's. Who are intended to use this?

samjmck 5y ago
The program isn't even publicly available yet. How can you conclude that it provides little over VS Code? And why does it matter that it's not open source?
- 5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
  > And why does it matter that it's not open source? I honestly find this question really weird. Do we really have to explain such basic things nowadays? It may not be important to you, it is extremely important to me, and (apparently) xyproto.
  - fxtentacle 5y ago
    And that's why you're not using Windows, Mac, Android, or iOS, but only Linux, correct? Mostly people want open source but they'll happily abandon it for convenience. That's how Gmail won over Dovecot.
    - esrh 5y ago
      That's exactly why, free/open source enthusiasts are just the minority type to prefer freedom or privacy over convenience.
fxtentacle 5y ago
People like me who like all the other JetBrains IDEs and have a toolbox subscription anyway.
IceWreck 5y ago
The non open source part is a bummer but its not Electron based. So its gotta be faster than VSCode.

tdrdt 5y ago

To me it sounds like this is used to test a rewrite of all their IDEs because it is written from scratch. I can imagine if this becomes a succes they will update all their IDEs or use Fleet as the new platform.

sam_lowry_ 5y ago
To me it sounds like they are trying to counter the assault of VSCode onto their market share.
agilob 5y ago
Over year ago JetBrains released a post showing they don't understand why VSCode eats their market: > Still, we don’t deny the information could be a bit skewed – even with the weighting we give to our survey results – given that this is from the JetBrains State of Developer Ecosystem survey, and one of JetBrains main products is IntelliJ IDEA. However, that is not to say that this is not totally unreasonable, as if we look at other surveys, IntelliJ IDEA is usually one the most used IDEs, and usually has around a 55-60% share of users. VS Code is growing which is concerning, not from a competitive point of view but actually from the point of view that there is clearly a lack of understanding of what an IDE gives you. VS Code is a code editor with some features that you’d find in an IDE, and extensions that can provide additional functionality – so if people are turning to VS Code for developing it may imply that developers don’t know what a fully-featured IDE can give them. In the web space it is understandable to use an editor as web developers are typically working with dynamic languages, and often use other tools like browser plugins to give them what they need. But in Java, especially professional Java, you really get a lot out of a good tool that has integration with the application server and you can really use the analysis and refactoring and everything. Specifically this part: > VS Code is growing which is concerning, not from a competitive point of view but actually from the point of view that there is clearly a lack of understanding of what an IDE gives you. https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2020/09/a-picture-of-java-in-2020/ https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2020/09/a-picture-of-java-in... People moved from IntelliJ to VSC because it was faster, simpler and language-agnostic, instead JetBrains blamed users for not using advanced features like CPU profiling which most people don't use daily. They are jumping on simple-editor train now. Better late than never

quiffledwerg 5y ago

I love Jetbrains products. I happily pay hard cash for what is my primary work tool …. a really capable IDE.

DeathArrow 5y ago

I would love the future IDEs to be fast with low footprint instead of slow monsters running Javascript in browser behind.

amq 5y ago
Is VS Code slow? I mean, Notepad is faster, but considering that VS Code is JS-based, it's actually fast and responsive.

tacone 5y ago

This file's contents may not be suitable for people under the legal age. Please confirm your birth date.

gigatexal 5y ago

Built from scratch ehh? I wonder what it’ll be priced at. It seems promising. DOA without vim bindings though.

rk06 5y ago
What? Vim bindings is not a deal breaker for majority of users. The decisive factor will be what does it bring over vscode?
- gigatexal 5y ago
  > The decisive factor will be what does it bring over vscode? Hopefully a native, non-electron mess. I'm excited to check it out. Plugins should fix any holes with respect to vim mode ;-).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
dmitriid 5y ago
> DOA without vim bindings though. The number of users pining for Vim and Vim bindings is greatly exaggerated.
- johnchristopher 5y ago
  To my surprise, less than Emacs users https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#development-environments-and-tools https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#development-e... I found this group much more vocal with their org-mode.
- gigatexal 5y ago
  Sure, for users who don't mind not having it. But for me I can't use anything without it. I vim all the things: my browser, my editor (vim of course), and will sure as shit shill for anything that makes more than a half baked effort to cater to my vim obsession. So for <i>me</i> it's a deal breaker, might not be for you.
- 5y ago

coolgoose 5y ago

Vscode online pressure?

himanshub16 5y ago
definitely!

torginus 5y ago

I really hope it's not Electron-based.

he_is_legend 5y ago
Unlikely. The rest of their programmers toolset are mostly java based.
- f311a 5y ago
  Google translate from a dev vacancy: You will be surprised, but we decided to create a new IDE from scratch and put together a bold team with a proven success track in creating tools inside JB. And right now we have a prototype and a bunch of bicycles. Our program consists of several parts that communicate with each other over the network. The first part is an editor that is written in a new cross-platform UI framework. When we made this framework, we were inspired by React.js and Swift UI. The second part is a small program written in Rust that tells about the arrangement of files on disk and starts processes. File watcher, process monitor and HTTP client in one binary. The third part is a server that analyzes the source code of the project. It can be IntelliJ, ReSharper, or LSP server. This architecture adds flexibility: if you run all the parts on one computer, you get a classic IDE. And if on different machines, it will be convenient to work in the cloud or in a container.
  - ac130kz 5y ago
    Now that's interesting, let's hope it's not immediate mode based and is closer to SolidJS (without Virtual DOM) than modern React, which clearly has no long-term future.
    - ushakov 5y ago
      they didn’t say it’s a JS framework though
    - drpotato 5y ago
      > modern React, which clearly has no long-term future Curious, why do you think that?

bennyp101 5y ago

I'm not sure what the use case is, for small tasks I have Sublime Text, for full on work, I have JetBrains. This /looks/ like a strange place between ST and VSCode

creshal 5y ago
Same. > For years folks have been asking us, “JetBrains, when will you create a lightweight editor?” I sure never did. If anything, I want their IDEs to be more involved and sophisticated. Otherwise I'm likely going to cancel our company subscriptions next year, VSCode is starting to overtake e.g. PyCharm in terms of developer comfort. So I really hope this is just a tech demonstrator to renew the architecture of their proper IDEs and they'll be picking up momentum on the latter as well.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  For sure. I like IntelliJ, all I want is for it to be snappier; it gets pretty laggy with bigger files (like, more than one screen), it seems to have to do a lot of work that interrupts the main UI thread when it comes to redoing syntax highlighting and error checking. I mean, the main reason why I'm not using vs code for most of my work is because it's cmd+click to go to definition isn't as good, auto/hotfixes aren't as good, and refactoring support is pretty much nonexistent.
  - kaba0 5y ago
    I don’t know why Jetbrains doesn’t already switch to a newer jdk. I found this tutorial (only the vm options part) to make intellij really snappy: https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-run-faster/ https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-r... It basically changes the jdk to version 16 (I used one from the openjdk website, not azul) where the new low-latency ZGC garbage collector is available and increases the default heapsize. Now I have a quite large project open with 1.5GB memory used, and it is really smooth all around with no stutters.
    - 5y ago

wokwokwok 5y ago

There’s a real opportunity here for JB. If they’re prepared to give this away for free, and make money off of upselling folk on hosted remote dev envs (or licensing the server side to cloud providers) then this could actually compete with vscode. They basically don’t have any other product that is competitive with vscode. …but, I’m skeptical they’re willing to make the jump to freemium based on their other SAS product offerings which have… hm… not been hugely lucrative.

davidjytang 5y ago
My company used to have JetBrains toolkit for every developer and we trialed VSCode for a year. There was no noticeable difference in productivity. We then switched to VScode and canceled all subscriptions to JetBrains because we have no more reason to pay JetBrains anymore.
quanticle 5y ago
They could compete with VSCode, but what would be their competitive advantage? Being a pale imitation of VSCode with fewer features and tied to an online offering that has less mindshare than Github doesn't seem to me like it's a winning strategy.
- simion314 5y ago
  They managed to sell in the past a C# plugin for Visual Studio, so people paid money on Visual Studio and this company convinced them to pay more and buy a plugin for a Microsoft language and a Microsoft IDE, people paid because it is a great product (for their projects). IMO they for sure can improve on VS Code, I bet they could sell you plugins better then MS can create and I think this is because when you are closer to your user you focus on the important stuff and no dude with a vision pushes things into a shitty direction. From my daily experience I can oopen a file and see what parts of the code were created in VS Studio or other basic editors, they have linting errors all over the place, I am not sure if the defaults are shit or if the linters are shit but I can confirm I can tell what (JavaScript)code was not made with a good IDE. I worked in Visual Stduio, Eclipse ,Intellij, QtCreator, and VS Code , and I am paying for Intellij because it makes me more productive , this might not apply on your specific project or your personal workflow. P.S. I still use my terminal tools like cat,tail,grep, diff so I am not a guy that needs pretty GUIs and I run an old Kubuntu LTS so I am not the person that looks at software at some identity badge.

quanticle 5y ago

What can Fleet do that VSCode doesn't already do better? I'm looking at the architecture description [1], and it seems like it's set up almost identically to how VSCode handles remote editing and language servers. Sure, Fleet is integrated with JetBrains' Spaces, but will that ever stand up to Github's offerings? I use both VSCode and JetBrains' IDEs in my day-to-day work so I would consider myself as having one foot in either camp, but I'm really struggling to come up with anything positive to say about Fleet, and the description that they've posted isn't doing anything to help me with that. [1] https://www.jetbrains.com/fleet/#distributive https://www.jetbrains.com/fleet/#distributive

wokwokwok 5y ago
Well, I mean to be fair the coding services for most languages in vscode other than js (ie java, c, rust, python, go, php, c#, ruby specifically) suck totally compared to the JB tooling. Let’s not play “pretend vscode is amazing” here today. The plug-ins for many languages are of massively varying quality and some of them really suck. The only thing they having going for them is being free. So… It’s pretty questionable to say: > What can Fleet do that VSCode doesn't already do better? Obviously, support languages with the full range of JB tooling, that is categorically better than the pathetic support vscode offers for, say, c#. …but, those tools cost $$$, and if you mean, “is it worth paying for the things Fleet can do over vscode…?” Well… it’s hard to say. Probably not for most vscode users.
- quanticle 5y ago
  >Well, I mean to be fair the coding services for most languages in vscode other than js (ie java, c, rust, python, go, php, c#, ruby specifically) suck totally compared to the JB tooling. I have to disagree. JetBrains' tooling is superior for Java and Kotlin. For C#, Visual Studio is pretty good these days, even without Resharper. For everything else VSCode is unquestionably better. I can just point VSCode at a directory full of Python files with a virtualenv, and VSCode just "gets it", and lets me jump right in to editing, with autocomplete and suggestions. With PyCharm, I have to manually configure the interpreter root, set the project root, and wait for it to do a bunch of indexing before I can do anything at all. Yes, once it's all set up, I have marginally better suggestions, but as VSCode's Python tooling gets better, that setup cost becomes less and less worth it. >The plug-ins for many languages are of massively varying quality and some of them really suck. Agreed, but that cuts both ways. I would argue that, at this point, VSCode's Calva plugin for Clojure is superior to IntelliJ's Cursive. Similarly, I found VSCode's Rust plugin to be easier to set up and get started with in a WSL environment than the Rust plugin for CLion. Sure, VSCode's support for Java is a garbage fire and its support for Kotlin is nigh non-existent, but as far as I'm concerned, both sides have pretty huge blind-spots when it comes to languages that are "second-class citizens" for their respective ecosystems. >Obviously, support languages with the full range of JB tooling, that is categorically better than the pathetic support vscode offers for, say, c#. Whether the tooling can be categorically better is difficult to say. After all, the architecture of Fleet is pretty much the same as the architecture of VSCode. They're both editors which use a client-server architecture to enable suggestions and remote editing. I'm not sure how much of JetBrains' IDE work will translate over, and I'm not sure how much of it they want to bring over. As I stated in my other comment [1], unlike Microsoft, JetBrains doesn't have anything except its IDEs. They don't have a cloud platform that is more important to them than IDE sales. The IDEs are everything to them, and instead of making the IDEs better they're off chasing taillights. This seems like a mid-2010s Mozilla maneuver (like FirefoxOS) and I hope it doesn't do as much damage to JetBrains as FirefoxOS did to Mozilla. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29377859 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29377859

politelemon 5y ago

Looking through the features, and the similarity of the architecture, looks like this is meant to compete with VS Code. Even the Settings implementation has the same global/user/workspace hierarchy; there's the 'trusted' code concept too. The one thing that might make it stand out is the smart mode: lightweight editor by default, and enabling it brings in the heavier IDE features. Anecdotally I've stopped using Jetbrains IDEs due to the bloat factor and their relatively poor Linux support, where VSCode has been providing excellent support and still manages to stay lightweight (though, it's starting to get notification heavy, isn't it?). Fleet is aimed at people like us so I'm willing to give it a try, but expectations are low.

selfhoster11 5y ago
What do you see as poor Linux support?
- vially 5y ago
  Not op, but for me the lack of native Wayland support is a deal breaker. And running it through XWayland has various issues (focus is broken, issues with HighDPI screens, etc). If Fleet supports Wayland natively I might give it a try, otherwise it's dead on arrival for me.
  - kaba0 5y ago
    As far as I know jetbrains did start to write a wayland backend for sway. But it is most probably a project with very low priority.
- politelemon 5y ago
  My mistake on the wording, I should have said "mediocre", perhaps. I can't edit the comment now, oops sorry. I am referring to lack of an installer, and also the default shortcuts which clash with the distro, and in general I've seen features come to Linux a lot later. So a better way to put it is that Linux feels like an afterthought to Jetbrains. I do follow and also raise issues you on YouTrack but find they often languish. Their IDEs are still overall pretty good, but I gravitate towards VS Code now.

tluyben2 5y ago

Little bit offtopic; I try jetbrains ide's every time I get a new laptop; lately Rider for a 1m+ LoC c# project on my 16gb m1. It is unusable. I like the features but it is so incredibly slow... and it gets even slower as the day goes on.

bosie 5y ago
Which bits are slow?
gjvc 5y ago
The culprit is the JDK11-based JBR. I was ready to dump JetBrains tools due to their lagginess, but with some deviousness (which might not suit you), I now have them running slipperier than a wet fish, by using JDK15/16 and JAOTC. Instructions are here: https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-run-faster/ https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-r... (I am very keen to tell people who are in the same despair as I was about how slow JetBrains apps are out of the box -- hope it's not considered bad form to link to one's own blog post about it.)
- tluyben2 5y ago
  I will try this now; thanks for that!
  - gjvc 5y ago
    please email me if you have any corrections / suggestions for improvement for the instructions :-)
    - citizenmatt 5y ago
      Please note that the JBR is a custom build that contains a number of important changes and fixes, and it's not recommended to replace this. For M1 support, it's much better to use an M1 compatible JVM and .NET runtime. Rider 2021.2 is an Intel build, because when it was released there was no M1 compatible .NET Runtime. Rider 2021.3 has an M1 build, and makes a big difference. It's currently in preview (https://www.jetbrains.com/rider/nextversion/ https://www.jetbrains.com/rider/nextversion/) but will be released in the next week or so.

ungawatkt 5y ago

If this can be 90% of the basic VSCode editor experience then I'm interested. Full props to VSCode's more advanced workflows[0], but I've mostly bought into jetbrains for that use case at this point. If I can fill the basic slot with a jetbrains product it fits well into my goal of a uniform tooling experience across everything. Fingers crossed for a good product that'll push both it and vscode to be better. [0]I use vscode as a basic text editor that can handle lots of files in a multi directory workspace because it's fast at it, plus markdown rendering and some basic autocomplete. I don't use the debugging features, navigation, or anything similar in it, but like I said, I give it full marks for being capable there, it's just that's outside my use case.

ch_123 5y ago

I would love to see a version of this which can run on an iPad. Combined with the Magic Keyboard and it would make a nice code environment in conjunction with a server, or a cloud instance.

technobabbler 5y ago
I marvel at those of you who can code on an iPad. How are your eyes so good? I have a 32" monitor running at like 120% zoom and can still barely read the code. Curse my ancient eyes!

The_Colonel 5y ago

Space Fleet The goal is not to replace VSCode (hardly any money in there) or Intellij but to fill a gap in the Space offering. Space is IMHO JetBrain's main strategic initiative for the next 10 years (and very promising).

azeirah 5y ago
What do you mean by space?
- dagmx 5y ago
  https://www.jetbrains.com/space/ https://www.jetbrains.com/space/

comprev 5y ago

Although I only speak English I greatly appreciate the fact their blog is available in so many other languages. Are their IDEs interfaces available in multiple languages too?

nottorp 5y ago
Sheesh. Please no. Note that i do speak several languages and my native language isnt English. Still, please dont complicate my programming with translations.
- vbezhenar 5y ago
  I don't understand this approach. Obviously you'll have a choice. And those who struggle with English would love to have a choice as well.
  - 5560675260 5y ago
    Instead of learning english those people will now struggle both with english and programming, it is really a disservice. And when you'll collaborate with people using poorly translated terminology you'll struggle too.
    - dagmx 5y ago
      This is such a self centered colionolist attitude. Not everyone is going to be collaborating with foreigners. Even if a programming language is based around an English view, many company APIs may be based on their own primary communication language. Or it may just help someone who's still great at communicating in English to work more efficiently, when English isn't their primary language. Choice is good. Don't force your English centric world view on everyone.
      - 5560675260 5y ago
        It might look like there is a choice, but there is one good option and many bad ones. As long as english stays lingua franca, it will be the default language of every specs, docs and tool that matter. Even if development happens outside of anglosphere - nobody wants to get locked out of international community. There is just no getting away from this, unless Yellowstone eruption erases most of US and China gets to be a world leader. > Not everyone is going to be collaborating with foreigners Sure, someone can work for a pittance on an internal market. Handicapping you career like this is an example of a bad choice that I'm talking about. You wouldn't even be able to get a job in any decent company without going through an english language test first. This isn't obvious only if you yourself live in US and naively think that every other country is equally ripe with opportunity.

talhof8 5y ago

Oddly similar to vscode. Always loved Jetbrains' IDEs better. Hopefully they won't be stupid enough to deprecate them. I feel a much better effort would be to heavily work on optimizing performance for their existing suite of IDEs (or perhaps re-write them in Rust or something more suitable than Java/Kotlin).

mikkelam 5y ago

As a long-term pycharm user that recently migrated to VSCode im quite happy to see jetbrains building this. My main gripe with their stack is that I work across many languages and workflows and I like to use the exact same keymaps configurations and so on and pycharm just didn't give you that. I really love the idea of the virtualized file system allowing you to develop anywhere. I hope this works well. Comparably, VSCode's remote containers really do a poor job of allowing one to develop over ssh connections, which I do constantly.

hanikesn 5y ago
Why not use intellij ultimate? You can easily add all the language plugins (mod clion based ones).
- mikkelam 5y ago
  Why? Because I'm a second class citizen in a java IDE. No thanks. The marketing is also quite clear on the target audience https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/features/ https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/features/
  - square_usual 5y ago
    Not really, tbh. IntelliJ Ultimate + the Ruby extension is RubyMine with a different name. Likewise with Go and JS, and I'm sure it's the same for php etc. but I can't speak for those. I've used this setup when I was testing out a bunch of languages for fun.
    - ta988 5y ago
      It is my experience as well. I only use CLion for Rust and C. All the rest (Python, TS, Kotlin, Ruby, Scala) I do in IntelliJ.
    - wilsonnb3 5y ago
      It is not true for C#, you need Rider for that. That is the only exception I am aware of, though.

ehnto 5y ago

I can see this being huge in a team with tight tool parity. I probably wouldn't use it as a freelancer, but remembering back to when I worked at an agency where we all had the same software and a pool of environments for all the different clients, this would have been the perfect tool. I know we all want to be special snowflakes, but my advice for a fast moving coherent team tooling includes having everyone on the same environment and using the same tools, so that you can share knowledge and master your tools as an individual and a team. Troubleshooting becomes much more reasonable, and we can all share the useful shortcuts we slowly build up over time. That's one of the downsides of tech moving so fast, no one masters anything, as a generalized industry we're eternally noobs.

KronisLV 5y ago

Huh, just the other day i was talking about how JetBrains products succeed in being some of the best IDEs around, but fail at the use case of just wanting to edit text files, where Notepad++, Visual Studio Code, Emacs, Sublime and vim could all be preferable to it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29362960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29362960 And then JetBrains come out with this... That's certainly pleasant to see!

jatone 5y ago
thats funny I've always found jetbrains IDE to be error ridden annoyances where I end up spending more time dealing with problems the IDE has caused than developing software.
- wpietri 5y ago
  I think that's not the typical experience. I've certainly gotten occasional errors, but for me it's been a solid and reliable set of tools over the years. I started using it for Java, and have since used their Ruby, Python, and webdev versions happily for many thousands of hours.
  - jatone 5y ago
    it was primarily android and gradle issues honestly within its jetbrains IDE. jetbrains itself has performance issues, and you need to muck around too much to get them working properly. the JVM also causes issues resulting it having to tune the environment params to get decent performance. JB makes tons of assumptions and attempts to be helpful in ways that just are not; precompiling automatically, running massive indexing jobs causing the machine to bog down, assuming it has the right to modify your environment. these are all things I just do not want to think about when in essence I'm navigating directories and editing files with fancy hover tooltips. the standalone versions are okay usually depends on the language. I just want an editor with code linting regardless of the language. vscode in that respect has been a god send. install language server and you're done. performance is generally good and the background tasks seem thus far havent completely bogged down my machine.

yutijke 5y ago

I wonder if this a reaction to Microsoft gaining developer mindshare through VSCode, Github codespaces and other integrations around VSCode? It could also have been a response to requests for better remote development support due to the WFH situation in the last ~1.5 years. Don't know if there is a way for use to know which one though.

pjmlp 5y ago

Someone is getting too scared from VSCode and decided to counter-attack.

agluszak 5y ago

Does it have support for LSP?

IceWreck 5y ago
They said it does
wluu 5y ago
Yes https://www.jetbrains.com/help/fleet/1.0/architecture-overview.html https://www.jetbrains.com/help/fleet/1.0/architecture-overvi...

xvilka 5y ago

If it's in Java it's not exactly lightweight.

vbezhenar 5y ago
VSCode is Electron. You can't be more heavyweight.
- bionade24 5y ago
  You never started any Java-based IDE, did you? You can smack tons of plugins into VSCode, enable them all and it still loads faster. Not using any of the above mentioned anymore, so I'm not teaming for one site.
  - kaba0 5y ago
    Even with all those plugins it does a fraction of what IntelliJ provides, so it is apples to oranges. Java itself doesn’t have that slow of a startup.
    - zxcq544 5y ago
      Java gui libraries are slow to start. Java starts fast but then GUI starts to load and it takes time.

chkhd 5y ago

I just hope the remote development features will actually work adequately in this. They tried to get that stuff working with existing IDEs multiple times [0][1][2][3], but they are all broken in their unique ways. Whenever I see them announce something new in the remote development space I always jump in right away and try it out, discover it is broken too, and then go back to using VS Code remote dev features. For local dev I still use JB stuff, but it is simply too broken and awkward for remote. [0] https://www.jetbrains.com/help/pycharm/configuring-remote-interpreters-via-ssh.html https://www.jetbrains.com/help/pycharm/configuring-remote-in... [1] https://lp.jetbrains.com/projector/ https://lp.jetbrains.com/projector/ [2] https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2021/11/29/introducing-remote-development-for-jetbrains-ides/ https://blog.jetbrains.com/blog/2021/11/29/introducing-remot... [3] https://www.jetbrains.com/code-with-me/ https://www.jetbrains.com/code-with-me/

kombine 5y ago
This is also the main reason I switched from PyCharm to VS Code at the start of the pandemic, which I think was really a really fortunate circumstance for the latter IDE. Even though PyCharm is a superior IDE, its remote development features were really broken, while VS Code nailed it.
EdwardDiego 5y ago
Code with me works okay. Far better than "Zoom share desktop".
bobviolier 5y ago
Out of curiosity, what doesn't work for you with Code With Me? The only thing I can think of is that the "client" also needs to have Code With Me installed, instead of a possible browser integration like VSCode has.
- midoBB 5y ago
  Code with Me working or not is completely a tossup. I ended up paying for another service completely despite me having access to Code with me because it was never reliable. Me and the other user were having issues with it connecting 1/3 times and that's never fun having to waste time fixing a tool.

polycaster 5y ago

Is this the beginning of JetBrains trying to reiterate what MS did with VSCode + Copilot? After I spend a couple of weeks with Copilot I must say it works more or less as advertised (the exceptions are funny though) and there is no comparable product in sight. In the business of development tooling this is probably a feature not to miss in the long run if you prefer to stay in said business. I realize there is Copilote integration for JetBrains IDEs as well. But it's one thing to have access to a resource. And another to have control over it.

nervousDev 5y ago

Does the remote development focus mean that it will also provide a better WSL integration than the rest of the Jetbrains line-up? I see no mentions of WSL even though it might be a strong selling point specially if this is going to compete with VS Code.

ctvo 5y ago

> For years folks have been asking us, “JetBrains, when will you create a lightweight editor?” So we gave you anything but a lightweight editor. Lightweight editor implies speed, focused purpose, simplicity. What we get instead is remote collaboration, cloud functionality, and a distributed architecture. Does this thing support language server protocols for the listed language or will it continue to use Jetbrain's implementations?

withinboredom 5y ago

I struggle to see this as "lightweight," unless they mean "just on my machine." The maintenance burden to the organization looks quite ridiculous.

mgkimsal 5y ago

I don't think the relative ease of writing extensions for VSCode can be overlooked. There's a relative explosion of extensions addressing a lot of niche needs for various markets. My experience is that many of them aren't terribly good, or were good but are no longer maintained, etc. If/when JB makes it more straightforward to write extensions, there may always be a perception different. VSCode extensions in TypeScript will be easier for many curious folks to address vs Java/Scala-based plugins for JetBrains.

FranksTV 5y ago
Yeah but the quality is pretty mixed. A lot have performance problems, and maintenance is spotty.
- mgkimsal 5y ago
  Touched on that with "My experience is that many of them aren't terribly good, or were good but are no longer maintained, etc" But... I realize now my comment was edited some during writing, and I merged two different directions I was heading in in to one comment, and didn't really finish either direction... You're correct that the quality is mixed at best, and... discovery is a pain. I regularly use phpstorm, and when working with others using vscode, I see they've gone through multiple php plugins for vscode, with varying success, and almost nothing comes close to the built-in functionality with JetBrains. The "live share" aspect of vscode is really nice (and 'codewithme' is OK too) but I've rarely been on a team where people ever paired enough to make it a useful or regular part of work. The 'remote' thing is where vscode has really seemed to rocket ahead in the last year or so (just my own observation from colleagues). I didn't understand the attraction, then... on thinking about it more, I guess I can somewhat understand the attraction, but it's not something I've felt compelled to pursue - it's felt like a step backwards. Maybe that will be something I revisit in 2022...

999900000999 5y ago

My issue has never been the actual cost of JBs products, but rather I have to go and justify myself to a manager to get a license. That's something which of course is not a factor when you're using open source stuff, but maybe I'll still buy this for my personal use. Vs code was supposed to be a lighter weight visual studio, but at this point it's hell bent on becoming just as bloated.

nlitened 5y ago
I suppose something like: “Hey pal, you pay me 400k a year. How about we spend 200 bucks a year to make me 10% more productive?”
- davidjytang 5y ago
  10% more productive part is hard to prove. My company tried switching between webstorm and vscode, there was no discernible difference in team productivity.
- 999900000999 5y ago
  It depends on your company. Many places will spend 500$ to decline a 200$ expense.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

forgotmypw17 5y ago

Yes! As someone who uses IntelliJ for writing primarily Perl, I welcome this.

MikusR 5y ago

"We're asked, over and over again, by the guidelines and by moderator comments, not to editorialize titles like this." tptacek

glun 5y ago

Whenever I try to use something other than IntelliJ (generally VS Code) I'm always struck by how awful the code completion and auto-imports are. I really hope we can get a lightweight editor with those two functions working properly. However, I don't see how you can do either of those features well without a lot of indexing of the codebase. And indexing is a major reason why IntelliJ so so clunky.

fivea 5y ago
Even though I wouldn't classify it as "awful", I do agree with the sentiment. Whenever I use Clion, I feel I need to have vscode also on the same project to mitigate the shortcomings of it's code completion and even search. Clion's support for CMake is particularly enfuriating, with it's propensity to actively replate a target's name with filenames, even if they do not match in caps, which makes absolutely no sense at all and feels it is doing it's best to get in the way and sabotage your productivity.
- torginus 5y ago
  I have a bit of an off-topic question for you: I'm developing a single app for Windows in 3 languages: C#, C++, and Typescript using Visual Studio and I get excellent autocomplete/integration support. However I'm looking towards porting it to Linux, and I'm looking at some other IDE. Is there something that can handle building/debugging/autocomplete for these 3 that's not VS?
  - zenron 5y ago
    Try moving to VSCode on Windows, see if you can re-create your workflow there using plugins. Then, if you are successful, port your workflow to VSCode running in Linux.
  - kaba0 5y ago
    Perhaps also intellij with the language specific plugins? Separately, all these languages work fine. What’s the build tool?

Diesel555 5y ago

I keep seeing discussions on a full IDE vs an editor like VSCode. People are claiming VSCode is poor with autocompletions and other features only a full IDE can accomplish. I use Pycharm, Webstorm, and VSCode and I don’t see the huge difference. Is it more apparent on certain languages? They stated in their blog https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2020/09/a-picture-of-java-in-2020/ https://blog.jetbrains.com/idea/2020/09/a-picture-of-java-in... > In the web space it is understandable to use an editor as web developers are typically working with dynamic languages, and often use other tools like browser plugins to give them what they need. But in Java, especially professional Java, you really get a lot out of a good tool that has integration with the application server and you can really use the analysis and refactoring and everything. > VS Code is growing which is concerning, not from a competitive point of view but actually from the point of view that there is clearly a lack of understanding of what an IDE gives you So my main question is what do full blown IDEs do that an editor like VSCode cannot?

ta988 5y ago
Yes it is much more apparent with typed languages (and starts to show with typed Python as well).
lukewrites 5y ago
For my job I spend a lot of time working on a python package that uses threads. I’ve found that pycharm’s debugging tools are much better than vscode’s when it comes to threads. Also, auto imports are possible while I don’t think I’m able to do that in VScode. If someone can tell me how to set up VSCode to do this better, I would love to know. However I also need to be able to support other engineers who typically don’t work on the package but might need to drop into the code. It is much easier to tell them to download the community edition of pycharm and start working than it is to walk them through setting up another editor/ide. I don’t particularly like pycharm, and don’t use it when I don’t have to, but in this case it’s the right tool for the job. (So far.)
- Diesel555 5y ago
  What do you mean by auto imports? If you type a function, type, or other token in VS Code that is not part of the scope, but exists in the environment, it will suggest and complete an import for you. At least for Typescript.

voidfunc 5y ago

Really weird name for an editor… I love IntelliJ and have paid for it for years now so I will probably check this out. VSCode has always felt too different.

tgv 5y ago

How does it compete against their other products? This seems to contain more than PyCharm and Gogland.

renewiltord 5y ago

I am thrilled to hear about the “develop locally, build remotely” feature.

cmrdporcupine 5y ago

If it's got IntelliJ's keybindings, I'm game. I've been a JetBrains user/customer for just under 20 years, and my brain is now hardwired for them. I've got a residual part of my brain that can do Emacs, but VSCode has never been pleasant for me, so I'm into this if they can do it right.

pizza 5y ago

While we’re all here, does anyone know how to make CLion a lot snappier? It seems to get reeally slow once you’re working on a pretty sizable codebase

zxcq544 5y ago
You can try these steps https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-run-faster/ https://iam.georgecox.com/2021/11/24/making-jetbrains-ides-r...

ff23ff23333 5y ago

All java applications are horrible. DataGrip IDE from Jetbrains requires 966 MB memory just to work with a single (!!!) query file that has few lines of SQL. I also opened a huge project in Visual Studio 2022 that contains thousands of files and it only needs 735 MB memory (however previous versions were much slower and less memory efficient). So, avoid Java at any cost. Even JavaScript-based VSCode is much faster that any Java application.

abeppu 5y ago

Side question: One thing they highlight is that this supports live collaboration, including simultaneously working on the same files. Can anyone describe a productive way of working where that's helpful and not confusing? When would you choose to work that way rather than e.g. pair programming with a single IDE or splitting up work in different branches? Shared editing of a document seems mostly fine but occasionally confusing, but code has to be internally consistent, and it seems like two parties trying jointly complete a feature on the same copy of a repo might be slower than sequencing if A's intermediate changes can prevent B from building/testing what they just wrote, etc.

chakkepolja 5y ago
One use case is, pair programming for remote work.
dagmx 5y ago
I think your example of pair programming is where it's useful (and what they highlight in their current integration in their existing products) The idea being (no pun intended) that you can do remote pair programming
- abeppu 5y ago
  I guess, my assumption is that for pair programming only one person ought to be actually writing code at a time, you should be looking at the same files at the same time, and you likely want to have some live voice and/or video channel open to discuss what you're doing, etc. So, I kinda think that as janky as it feels, screen share of a normal IDE over zoom ends up being a less disjointed experience than zoom + "collaborative" IDE where you might each be looking at different files or different parts of files.
  - dagmx 5y ago
    I think anyone should be able to take over as needed. Having done pair programming with coworkers over zoom, it's painful when I have to describe where I want them to click, and you have to resort to saying line numbers or describing constructs. In person you can gesture. That's the hole that collaborative editing can fill.

Shadonototra 5y ago

Hopefully they keep their promise and the IDE stays lightweight with time! And their debugger, i hope i can use it to debug native programs.. If the debugger is open, that alone will be massive That is one area where VSCode sucks, specially for native programs

baybal2 5y ago

How it is different from all other JetBrain IDEs?

siproprio 5y ago

omg I'm in love with jetbrains now

willangley 5y ago

I'm excited to see this and signed up for the preview. It's just in time for M1 Pro MacBooks. I spent hours stuck on the very first thing I tried coding on my new laptop because of a missing linux-aarch64 binary wheel on PyPI and had to figure out what was happening and how to build it from source. If this is priced close to JetBrains' other products and works decently well I could see myself signing up for it. The subscription would pay for itself in one averted experience like this a year :P

ksec 5y ago

Supported Language: Java, Kotlin, Python, Go, JavaScript, Rust, TypeScript, JSON Coming Soon: PHP, C++, C#, HTML Right now 307 Comments I am surprised no one has mentioned it. Ruby isn't even on the Coming soon list.

cryptonector 5y ago

Got vim keybindings?

projectileboy 5y ago

Reading this comment thread, it’s weird to me how entitled software developers seem to be about free tools. Is it really that insane to pay $100 (or whatever) for something you use all day every day?

ivanstame 5y ago

Not that exciting tbh. You showed nothing new and it's probably going to be paid software (closed source for sure), and comparing that to VSCode + Copilot (which is blowing my mind day by day) I don't see why would I switch. And that pair programming session is so faaaaaake.

alberth 5y ago

I still seem to be the only person I know using UltraEdit. Been using it 19 years now.

codeape 5y ago

I wish there was benchmarks for IDEs/editors, just like there are benchmarks for web frameworks (https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/ https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/ https://web-frameworks-benchmark.netlify.app/ https://web-frameworks-benchmark.netlify.app/). For instance, given some Java program/project: 1. Clock time from selecting "Run" in the IDE to first line written to stdout (to measure startup time) 2. Clock time from selecting "Debug" in the IDE to breakpoint hit and debugger able to inspect stack (with breakpoint on line N) 3. Total memory used with open project, with single editor window open. 4. Total memory used when breakpoint hit. 5. Clock time from selecting "Run tests" in the IDE to test results are displayed 6. Clock time from selecting "Debug tests" in the IDE to breakpoint hit and debugger able to inspect stack (with breakpoint on line N)