17 ms·

New wave of strikes will test worker power

163 points by harambae 5y ago

diebeforei485 5y ago
I am not necessarily against tech forming a union. I am however against joining a grandpa union like CWA or OPEIU. Some CWA chapters have a very anti-immigrant take on the tech industry which does not vibe with most people in Bay Area or NYC tech.
kennywinker 5y ago
I for one will be cancelling my netflix and apple tv subscriptions if the IATSE strike happens tomorrow. Tech is such a multiplier when it comes to consolidation of power, workers need to stand united whenever possible.
- egh 5y ago
  Let your conscience guide you, but in my opinion you should look to the union to see what they are asking you to do. A boycott of a struck company is not necessarily what the union wants you to do. One can imagine, for instance, that consumers continue to demand a company's product, demand that strengthens the union's bargaining power. When in doubt you can always check the union's web site or social media to see what you can do to support them.
- newnamenewface 5y ago
  The strike was averted with a last minute deal as of a few hours ago.
  - monocasa 5y ago
    I'll throw out there that strikes are never for sure averted until the time for the strike has passed. Wildcat strikes where the deal negotiated isn't accepted by the masses of the striking workers and they strike anyway are always an option. The West Virginia teachers' strike a few years back went wildcat pretty soon, with the teachers continuing to strike after not accepting the deal the union negotiated. The union was then able to get a better deal for the teachers.
  - TigeriusKirk 5y ago
    The initial reaction from my IATSE friends is very negative. Whether that reaction will hold remains to be seen.
- toofy 5y ago
  It looks like it’s been averted, but yeah, I’ll be doing the same if I need to. It’s gonna be rough since I have so goddamn many streaming services — youtubeTV, hulu, netflix, hbomax, amazon, mubi, etc… even worse since I have three days off next week and was entirely looking forward to a lazy ass couch planted binge fest, but here we are. Hopefully they reached a solid agreement.
  - JKCalhoun 5y ago
    You make actually owning content sound good.
adventured 5y ago
Rising living costs due to inflation and a few other reasons (such as global supply chains being a mess), will force workers into a scenario where they have no other reasonable choice but to strike as a bargaining tactic (if they can), as the companies aren't going to often voluntarily outpace inflation (ie inflation adjustment + normal yearly raises). The John Deere offer to labor for example was very mediocre. Deere can do a lot better, they're doing quite well right now, their operating income has climbed from $2.7b in 2017 to $7b in the last four quarters (and heading toward $9b). That kind of stinginess toward your unionized workers while the company is prospering will get you a strike. Societal turmoil (worker, consumer, business) is one of the many not fun consequences from higher rates of inflation.
- refurb 5y ago
  Deer goes through waves of big profits then loss. Looking at the last 4 quarters doesn’t give you the full picture. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/DE/deere/revenue https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/DE/deere/revenue
  - adventured 5y ago
    > Deer goes through waves of big profits then loss. No they don't. There's no magical set cycle of outsized profits and losses waves for Deere. Globalization and the world adding 80 million new people per year has created a potent demand for their product, which is why their sales have done well over the last ~5 years ($26b to $42b) - there's another 400 million mouths to feed in that time and another billion more on the way. And those people have more money to spend on calories than past generations. It adds up to the world needing a lot more farm output and a lot more farm equipment. > Looking at the last 4 quarters doesn’t give you the full picture. I wasn't only looking at their last four quarters. Their last five fiscal years have been stellar in fact and getting better by the year. Covid only barely slowed them down. This past decade has been the best, by a dramatic margin, in the history of Deere.
    - refurb 5y ago
      Look at the link. -30% growth in 2008, then 2015, then 2020. What do you mean “no they dont”?
m_ke 5y ago
Sadly since tech ate the economy software engineers are one of the only groups with any worker power and we're paid way too much to ever use it. EDIT: I was listening to some of the IATSE workers and it sounds like their working conditions deteriorated when Netflix and Amazon bought up Hollywood and shifted the industry from films to churning out long series for streaming. It made me really think about the impact that tech has had on the country in the last 15 years. Growing up in the early 2000s I was very bullish on tech being a force for good (thanks Google and "making the world a better place") but looking at the world that we created is sad to see. I went biking early in the morning a few times this week and came across a bunch of Uber drivers sleeping in their cars with jackets over their heads. All of their strikes and organizing hasn't worked out, they're not "employees" and because they're a global workforce it's hard for them to organize. A few Dev ops engineers at Uber walking off their job for a few days could lead to more change for the workers than all of the NYC drivers striking for weeks. Same goes for Amazon warehouse and delivery drivers. From all of the reporting that I've seen their working conditions are awful but because they're distributed it's hard for them to organize. I grew up on the poorer side of Queens and have high school friends who I can't talk out of falling for NFT and crypto scams. As much as I enjoy using Airbnb it has played a role in reducing the supply of housing and increased housing costs. My younger female cousins are addicted to Instagram and are clearly having body image problems, with some of them opting to get plastic surgery to achieve the typical filtered Instagram look. TLDR: Tech is quickly taking over most industries and consolidating power to a few large players, which makes it harder for what used to be middle class workers to organize and negotiate better working conditions. As the people building and running these tools we have way more leverage than most workers.
- egypturnash 5y ago
  So many of you are also convinced you are expert negotiators and 200x programmers who surely deserve, and can get, get more for your work than the average programmer, so unions would surely result in less money for you. Or at least I sure do see that sentiment in most discussions of unions on HN.
  - zamadatix 5y ago
eh9 5y ago
We should unionize and put Amazon & others in a PIP for a change
eh9 5y ago
What happens when minimum wage increases and businesses increase costs to meet the new cost of labor requirements? Wouldn’t that still lock out people from necessary products?
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  This doesn't compute at all! Wages are a fraction of the final product price - there are material costs, facilities, rent, etc. So even if we double the minimum wage, the cost of goods sold would only increase 30%-40%, so the folks depending on minimum wage have a major increase of their quality of life.
- tonfreed 5y ago
  To an extent, yes, but if inflation is high it's a false increase in value anyway.
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  I think it’s kind of a misunderstanding that this is how it works. Increasing wages can save companies money by improved productivity and reduced turnover. Moreover the price of the product is dictated by market demands and owners may simply have to take less profit in order to sell at market price. That is of course if increased productivity doesn’t completely cancel out the wage increase. Finally higher wages means people can afford higher prices to some extent.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    True, that is the happy-path scenario. There are a few steps in there that depend on the circumstances. There are other scenarios don't go that way too.
    - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
      Certainly. But we similarly cannot say as a fact that this will raise prices.
- jdavis703 5y ago
Animats 5y ago
Solidarity forever! The Union makes us strong!
- nlitened 5y ago
  Is it not hypocrisy to say that? Our job as software developers is literally to kill blue-collar and low-skill jobs by thousands.
  - claudiulodro 5y ago
    I think software devs kill white-collar jobs more than blue-collar. You're never going to replace a plumber with software, but you can definitely get close to replacing a tax preparer or paralegal.
TrispusAttucks 5y ago
Much respect to those on the front lines of these power battles. It seems like we are doomed to repeat these cycles because the necessary tension between labor and capital. I'd love to hear any ideas on how we could shorten this feedback loop so we don't have to so closely approach the precipice.
- runarberg 5y ago
  I’ve never studied philosophy nor economy so I don’t know relevant it is today, but Karl Marx had some ideas on how to fix this situation and wrote about it in Das Kapital. The short answer is basically democratize the workplace. Instead of a CEO and shareholders making decisions for the workers. The workers should have to powers to pick their own benefits from the profits they are creating.
  - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
    > I don’t know relevant it is today, but Karl Marx had some ideas on how to fix this situation and wrote about it in Das Kapital You can do that but can't force customers to buy from you.
  - TrispusAttucks 5y ago
    I am slightly familiar with Marxism. One point I never understood is that Marxist philosophy is almost always applied as a solution to a currently capitalist economy. What are the Marxist incentives for new business creation as opposed to just reforming an existing capitalist company?
    - Kbelicius 5y ago
      > What are the Marxist incentives for new business creation I also am not very familiar with Marxism so all I can tell you is that humans, generally, are driven by many things and not just by profit.
      - missedthecue 5y ago
harles 5y ago
I don’t quite understand the general anti big-tech-co/pro union sentiment on HN. Like somehow prioritizing engagement makes a group unforgivably evil, but literally hiring hit men to take out your rivals is no biggie.
- m_ke 5y ago
  Which hit men are you speaking of? The only person that I recall hiring hit men recently was a prince who has also pumped billions of dollars into Silicon Valley "unicorns".
  - harles 5y ago
    Jock Yablonski + his family and Jimmy Hoffa (who likely did the same himself). They’ve gotten significantly less violent in recent decades but I really doubt they have knocked off the organized crime.
- kelseyfrog 5y ago
  One way to understand this would be to ask people in the form of a question. Dear HN people who form this category, why do you demonize big tech while supporting unions who have killed rivals?
  - harles 5y ago
    Fair point. So HN folks who support unions who have previously engaged in hired killings but are against big tech which (to my knowledge) have not done so, why do you support one but not the other?
- claudiulodro 5y ago
  > literally hiring hit men to take out your rivals is no biggie. Like the Pinkertons?
  - harles 5y ago
    I’m not aware of the Pinkertons ever hiring or acting as hitmen. Is there a citation for this?
honksillet 5y ago
Some of these strikes will be covid vaccine mandate related.
Animats 5y ago
IATSE and the industry just settled.[1] Terms are generally favorable to the union. • Living wage achieved • Improved wages and working conditions for streaming • Retroactive scale wage Increases of 3% annually • Employer Funded Benefits for the term • Increased meal period penalties including prevailing rate • Daily Rest Periods of 10 hours without exclusions • Weekend Rest Periods of 54 and 32 hours • Martin Luther King Jr.’s Birthday Holiday • Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Initiatives • 13th and 14th checks for pre-August 2009 retirees • Additional MPI Hours for On-Call Employees • Expansion of Sick Leave Benefit to the entire country [1] https://iatse.net/landmark-tentative-agreement-reached-for-iatse-west-coast-film-and-television-workers-before-strike-deadline/ https://iatse.net/landmark-tentative-agreement-reached-for-i...
- harles 5y ago
  > Improved wages and working conditions for streaming I’m trying to understand what this means. Was Netflix paying less than the rest of the industry or was there something else going on? The linked articles don’t have details.
fallingfrog 5y ago
One thing missing from all the media accounts of these strikes is an understanding that organizing a workforce enough to produce a strike takes years of dedicated work. Every worker that joins the union has to be persuaded one on one, you have to get the backing of community leaders, then you slowly start to do solidarity actions like everyone wearing a pin or whatever. You don’t call a strike unless you have enough support that you’re pretty sure you’re going to win. The strike itself is the tip of the iceberg. What this means is that a massive wave of union organizing has been happening for years now which the media has, for better or worse, been downplaying or ignoring.

163 points by harambae 5y ago

I am not necessarily against tech forming a union. I am however against joining a grandpa union like CWA or OPEIU. Some CWA chapters have a very anti-immigrant take on the tech industry which does not vibe with most people in Bay Area or NYC tech.

kennywinker 5y ago

I for one will be cancelling my netflix and apple tv subscriptions if the IATSE strike happens tomorrow. Tech is such a multiplier when it comes to consolidation of power, workers need to stand united whenever possible.

egh 5y ago
Let your conscience guide you, but in my opinion you should look to the union to see what they are asking you to do. A boycott of a struck company is not necessarily what the union wants you to do. One can imagine, for instance, that consumers continue to demand a company's product, demand that strengthens the union's bargaining power. When in doubt you can always check the union's web site or social media to see what you can do to support them.
newnamenewface 5y ago
The strike was averted with a last minute deal as of a few hours ago.
- monocasa 5y ago
  I'll throw out there that strikes are never for sure averted until the time for the strike has passed. Wildcat strikes where the deal negotiated isn't accepted by the masses of the striking workers and they strike anyway are always an option. The West Virginia teachers' strike a few years back went wildcat pretty soon, with the teachers continuing to strike after not accepting the deal the union negotiated. The union was then able to get a better deal for the teachers.
- TigeriusKirk 5y ago
  The initial reaction from my IATSE friends is very negative. Whether that reaction will hold remains to be seen.
toofy 5y ago
It looks like it’s been averted, but yeah, I’ll be doing the same if I need to. It’s gonna be rough since I have so goddamn many streaming services — youtubeTV, hulu, netflix, hbomax, amazon, mubi, etc… even worse since I have three days off next week and was entirely looking forward to a lazy ass couch planted binge fest, but here we are. Hopefully they reached a solid agreement.
- JKCalhoun 5y ago
  You make actually owning content sound good.

adventured 5y ago

Rising living costs due to inflation and a few other reasons (such as global supply chains being a mess), will force workers into a scenario where they have no other reasonable choice but to strike as a bargaining tactic (if they can), as the companies aren't going to often voluntarily outpace inflation (ie inflation adjustment + normal yearly raises). The John Deere offer to labor for example was very mediocre. Deere can do a lot better, they're doing quite well right now, their operating income has climbed from $2.7b in 2017 to $7b in the last four quarters (and heading toward $9b). That kind of stinginess toward your unionized workers while the company is prospering will get you a strike. Societal turmoil (worker, consumer, business) is one of the many not fun consequences from higher rates of inflation.

refurb 5y ago
Deer goes through waves of big profits then loss. Looking at the last 4 quarters doesn’t give you the full picture. https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/DE/deere/revenue https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/DE/deere/revenue
- adventured 5y ago
  > Deer goes through waves of big profits then loss. No they don't. There's no magical set cycle of outsized profits and losses waves for Deere. Globalization and the world adding 80 million new people per year has created a potent demand for their product, which is why their sales have done well over the last ~5 years ($26b to $42b) - there's another 400 million mouths to feed in that time and another billion more on the way. And those people have more money to spend on calories than past generations. It adds up to the world needing a lot more farm output and a lot more farm equipment. > Looking at the last 4 quarters doesn’t give you the full picture. I wasn't only looking at their last four quarters. Their last five fiscal years have been stellar in fact and getting better by the year. Covid only barely slowed them down. This past decade has been the best, by a dramatic margin, in the history of Deere.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Look at the link. -30% growth in 2008, then 2015, then 2020. What do you mean “no they dont”?

m_ke 5y ago

Sadly since tech ate the economy software engineers are one of the only groups with any worker power and we're paid way too much to ever use it. EDIT: I was listening to some of the IATSE workers and it sounds like their working conditions deteriorated when Netflix and Amazon bought up Hollywood and shifted the industry from films to churning out long series for streaming. It made me really think about the impact that tech has had on the country in the last 15 years. Growing up in the early 2000s I was very bullish on tech being a force for good (thanks Google and "making the world a better place") but looking at the world that we created is sad to see. I went biking early in the morning a few times this week and came across a bunch of Uber drivers sleeping in their cars with jackets over their heads. All of their strikes and organizing hasn't worked out, they're not "employees" and because they're a global workforce it's hard for them to organize. A few Dev ops engineers at Uber walking off their job for a few days could lead to more change for the workers than all of the NYC drivers striking for weeks. Same goes for Amazon warehouse and delivery drivers. From all of the reporting that I've seen their working conditions are awful but because they're distributed it's hard for them to organize. I grew up on the poorer side of Queens and have high school friends who I can't talk out of falling for NFT and crypto scams. As much as I enjoy using Airbnb it has played a role in reducing the supply of housing and increased housing costs. My younger female cousins are addicted to Instagram and are clearly having body image problems, with some of them opting to get plastic surgery to achieve the typical filtered Instagram look. TLDR: Tech is quickly taking over most industries and consolidating power to a few large players, which makes it harder for what used to be middle class workers to organize and negotiate better working conditions. As the people building and running these tools we have way more leverage than most workers.

egypturnash 5y ago
So many of you are also convinced you are expert negotiators and 200x programmers who surely deserve, and can get, get more for your work than the average programmer, so unions would surely result in less money for you. Or at least I sure do see that sentiment in most discussions of unions on HN.
- zamadatix 5y ago

eh9 5y ago

We should unionize and put Amazon & others in a PIP for a change

eh9 5y ago

What happens when minimum wage increases and businesses increase costs to meet the new cost of labor requirements? Wouldn’t that still lock out people from necessary products?

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
This doesn't compute at all! Wages are a fraction of the final product price - there are material costs, facilities, rent, etc. So even if we double the minimum wage, the cost of goods sold would only increase 30%-40%, so the folks depending on minimum wage have a major increase of their quality of life.
tonfreed 5y ago
To an extent, yes, but if inflation is high it's a false increase in value anyway.
TaylorAlexander 5y ago
I think it’s kind of a misunderstanding that this is how it works. Increasing wages can save companies money by improved productivity and reduced turnover. Moreover the price of the product is dictated by market demands and owners may simply have to take less profit in order to sell at market price. That is of course if increased productivity doesn’t completely cancel out the wage increase. Finally higher wages means people can afford higher prices to some extent.
- giantg2 5y ago
  True, that is the happy-path scenario. There are a few steps in there that depend on the circumstances. There are other scenarios don't go that way too.
  - TaylorAlexander 5y ago
    Certainly. But we similarly cannot say as a fact that this will raise prices.
jdavis703 5y ago

Animats 5y ago

Solidarity forever! The Union makes us strong!

nlitened 5y ago
Is it not hypocrisy to say that? Our job as software developers is literally to kill blue-collar and low-skill jobs by thousands.
- claudiulodro 5y ago
  I think software devs kill white-collar jobs more than blue-collar. You're never going to replace a plumber with software, but you can definitely get close to replacing a tax preparer or paralegal.

TrispusAttucks 5y ago

Much respect to those on the front lines of these power battles. It seems like we are doomed to repeat these cycles because the necessary tension between labor and capital. I'd love to hear any ideas on how we could shorten this feedback loop so we don't have to so closely approach the precipice.

runarberg 5y ago
I’ve never studied philosophy nor economy so I don’t know relevant it is today, but Karl Marx had some ideas on how to fix this situation and wrote about it in Das Kapital. The short answer is basically democratize the workplace. Instead of a CEO and shareholders making decisions for the workers. The workers should have to powers to pick their own benefits from the profits they are creating.
- cscurmudgeon 5y ago
  > I don’t know relevant it is today, but Karl Marx had some ideas on how to fix this situation and wrote about it in Das Kapital You can do that but can't force customers to buy from you.
- TrispusAttucks 5y ago
  I am slightly familiar with Marxism. One point I never understood is that Marxist philosophy is almost always applied as a solution to a currently capitalist economy. What are the Marxist incentives for new business creation as opposed to just reforming an existing capitalist company?
  - Kbelicius 5y ago
    > What are the Marxist incentives for new business creation I also am not very familiar with Marxism so all I can tell you is that humans, generally, are driven by many things and not just by profit.
    - missedthecue 5y ago

harles 5y ago

I don’t quite understand the general anti big-tech-co/pro union sentiment on HN. Like somehow prioritizing engagement makes a group unforgivably evil, but literally hiring hit men to take out your rivals is no biggie.

m_ke 5y ago
Which hit men are you speaking of? The only person that I recall hiring hit men recently was a prince who has also pumped billions of dollars into Silicon Valley "unicorns".
- harles 5y ago
  Jock Yablonski + his family and Jimmy Hoffa (who likely did the same himself). They’ve gotten significantly less violent in recent decades but I really doubt they have knocked off the organized crime.
kelseyfrog 5y ago
One way to understand this would be to ask people in the form of a question. Dear HN people who form this category, why do you demonize big tech while supporting unions who have killed rivals?
- harles 5y ago
  Fair point. So HN folks who support unions who have previously engaged in hired killings but are against big tech which (to my knowledge) have not done so, why do you support one but not the other?
claudiulodro 5y ago
> literally hiring hit men to take out your rivals is no biggie. Like the Pinkertons?
- harles 5y ago
  I’m not aware of the Pinkertons ever hiring or acting as hitmen. Is there a citation for this?

honksillet 5y ago

Some of these strikes will be covid vaccine mandate related.

Animats 5y ago

IATSE and the industry just settled.[1] Terms are generally favorable to the union. • Living wage achieved • Improved wages and working conditions for streaming • Retroactive scale wage Increases of 3% annually • Employer Funded Benefits for the term • Increased meal period penalties including prevailing rate • Daily Rest Periods of 10 hours without exclusions • Weekend Rest Periods of 54 and 32 hours • Martin Luther King Jr.’s Birthday Holiday • Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Initiatives • 13th and 14th checks for pre-August 2009 retirees • Additional MPI Hours for On-Call Employees • Expansion of Sick Leave Benefit to the entire country [1] https://iatse.net/landmark-tentative-agreement-reached-for-iatse-west-coast-film-and-television-workers-before-strike-deadline/ https://iatse.net/landmark-tentative-agreement-reached-for-i...

harles 5y ago
> Improved wages and working conditions for streaming I’m trying to understand what this means. Was Netflix paying less than the rest of the industry or was there something else going on? The linked articles don’t have details.

fallingfrog 5y ago

One thing missing from all the media accounts of these strikes is an understanding that organizing a workforce enough to produce a strike takes years of dedicated work. Every worker that joins the union has to be persuaded one on one, you have to get the backing of community leaders, then you slowly start to do solidarity actions like everyone wearing a pin or whatever. You don’t call a strike unless you have enough support that you’re pretty sure you’re going to win. The strike itself is the tip of the iceberg. What this means is that a massive wave of union organizing has been happening for years now which the media has, for better or worse, been downplaying or ignoring.