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Crews are abandoned on ships in record numbers without pay, food or a way home
- thedigitalone 5y agoPaywalled https://archive.is/TX6lA https://archive.is/TX6lA
- pluc 5y agoI don't understand why this content is allowed. Without a subscription it's literally just an ad for a subscription. And I'm not going to buy a subscription for the three articles I read every month.
- lelandfe 5y agoOnce they start blocking archive.is I'll probably care more
- dundarious 5y agoIt's a major national US newspaper -- many, many people have subscriptions.
- rob74 5y agoWell, I live in Germany, and I'm not going to subscribe to a major national US newspaper just for the few articles that get linked here. If they had a micropayment alternative for single articles I would consider it however...
- dundarious 5y agoWhich is all fair enough. I'm opposing pluc's point that this type of post should perhaps be disallowed: > I don't understand why this content is allowed. It's certainly an appropriate post for a US-centric forum.
- detaro 5y ago> I don't understand why this content is allowed. Because a workaround is available. > And I'm not going to buy a subscription for the three articles I read every month. Then click the link in the comment you replied to and read it.
- dghughes 5y agoAnd also https://12ft.io/ https://12ft.io/
- Guereric 5y agoFailed for this article
- dghughes 5y agoYou have to go to the site and paste in the url you want to see. https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fcrews-are-abandoned-on-ships-in-record-numbers-without-pay-food-or-a-way-home-11633699978 https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles...
- jaqalopes 5y agoThis is upsetting. What can I, an ordinary civilian not involved with the shipping industry, do to help these people?
- mam2 5y agoNothing really relevant probalby.
- forgotmypw17 5y agoBuy less stuff, basically. Think hard before buying something "new". You may not need it, or you may be able to find alternatives, such as hand-me-downs, secondhand, etc.
- ericd 5y agoLocal BuyNothing groups are great for this.
- Tijdreiziger 5y agoJust looked into Buy Nothing. What's the advantage of using this platform vs. second-hand/thrift shops?
- forgotmypw17 5y agoI think it's an alternative to second-hand and thrift shops, and the biggest advantage is that it is available even in areas without thrift shops. The second advantage is that you don't have to pay, so it is more likely that items will find a good home instead of being discarded. The third advantage is non-participation in the money system, if you're into that sort of thing, and also the elimination of overhead for store and inventory upkeep. One downside, of course, is that most people aren't willing to keep their "stock" around for too long, so there's limited inventory at any given time that you can browse.
- ericd 5y agoIt’s typically just a Facebook group of your neighbors, so “platform” might be a bit strong for what it is. Besides everything being free, I’ve found it helps build a bit of a sense of community for those who participate.
- mistrial9 5y agoI paid money to cross the Pacific Ocean on a Maersk line, 300 meter cargo ship (us_en here). Many people asked me if I worked to be on board, and the answer was "no", Maersk did not allow it. The officers were mostly East Germans who needed a job, while the strictly segregated, "A-Bs" were almost all Pacific Islanders of some kind. The conditions were clean and professional, but I got the feeling soon that this was not a desirable job. The officers would spend at least 60 days on duty, often more.. without a vacation day, but had a weekly day "off" or two, except the Captain who is technically working at all times. I enjoyed the travel and had a good voyage, with many small things to say about it at another time. As I learn about "business" and the world, I understand more about labor abuses, even with "respectable" companies. And, your outrage does nothing, because people who mistreat others professionally are quite used to the complaining, including yours. I am not at all surprised at this article.
- CalChris 5y agoA-B, usually AB, is an able body seaman. This is the lowest level of certification for the deck department of a merchant ship. https://www.mitags.org/course/able-seaman-course/ https://www.mitags.org/course/able-seaman-course/
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- kaiwen1 5y agoLowest is Ordinary Seaman (OS). This is the entry level rating in the deck department. The only qualifications required are basic safety and firefighting training. The corresponding entry level rating in the engine department is Wiper.
- polishdude20 5y agoHow much did that voyage cost?
- p_j_w 5y agoI'm not OP, but I've looked it up before, and it's actually quite expensive. Ballpark of around $75/night (USD). And, of course, it's slow, so you'll be using a substantial portion of your banked vacation time to do it (if that's a concern for you).
- mesh 5y agoIf interested in reading more on this, and other abuses on the sea: The Outlaw Ocean https://www.amazon.com/Outlaw-Ocean-Journeys-Untamed-Frontier/dp/1101972378/ https://www.amazon.com/Outlaw-Ocean-Journeys-Untamed-Frontie... This is based on a series of articles the author wrote for the New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/07/24/world/the-outlaw-ocean.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/07/24/world/the-out...
- mbil 5y agoI'll add that there was a 99% Invisible episode on this topic: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/abandoned-ships/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/abandoned-ships/
- bena 5y agoThere's a slightly older book on the same topic The Outlaw Sea: https://www.amazon.com/Outlaw-Sea-World-Freedom-Chaos/dp/0865477221 https://www.amazon.com/Outlaw-Sea-World-Freedom-Chaos/dp/086... It's a pretty good look into the world of international sea travel as well. It even gets into the ship-breaking industry as well.
- at-fates-hands 5y agoThis was a shocking and eye opening series for me. Complete lawlessness, murder and mayhem; which is rampant in certain areas of the world. I had been under the impression that international waters were much more regulated. Man oh man, was I wrong.
- Thlom 5y agoPorts are very regulated. International waters not so much.
- hansthehorse 5y agoWhich is why you have to very careful if you gamble on a cruise ship. They answer to no gaming commission, nobody inspects their gaming machines and you are basically trusting the company to run fair games.
- erellsworth 5y agoTie all the abandoned ships together and turn them into a floating city where the only law is the law of the sea. I mean, we're aiming for full on dystopia aren't we?
- mike503 5y agoReal life Snow Crash!
- germinalphrase 5y agoPerhaps, more like Armada from “The Scar”.
- srvmshr 5y agoThere actually was such a situation during the wars near Suez Canal - the Great Bitter Lakes Association or the Yellow fleet [1][2] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Fleet 2. https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/great-bitter-lake-association/ https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/great-bitter-lake-ass...
- obmelvin 5y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26657332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26657332 Most recent discussion of the Great Bitter Lake Association (googling seems to indicate it'd been posted on HN before - but the Ever Given's grounding made it relevant again)
- louwrentius 5y agoCan we call this floating city Waterworld?
- BoxOfRain 5y agoYou might be interested in the story of Radio Caroline, back in the '60s the BBC had a state monopoly on British radio and it was very stuffy and conservative. To get around this people used to set up AM transmitters and studios on ships just outside of UK territorial waters and transmitted from beyond the jurisdiction of the government. There were quite a few of these but Radio Caroline was the first and longest-lived - they lasted up to 1990 when the British government gave itself the power to raid radio ships in international waters (!) but it eventually returned with a license and is still around today. While it wasn't exactly a dystopian floating city (quite the opposite, it was dedicated people who wanted to be there) it's still really interesting from lots of points of view I think.
- trhway 5y agoat some point they will raise the Jolly Rodger. >Without Pay, Food or a Way Home the civilized version would be to go the local authorities and initiate abandoned property/lien proceedings against the ship and the cargo for some port fees/fines for some violations by the ship (which is easy to commit if you're in control of the ship) or do a bit of freight Uber - after all you have a ship :).
- R0b0t1 5y agoUsually they are scared of retaliation in their home countries. If they weren't going to ultimately be returned to their port of origin I'm sure more would just abandon the ships at first sign of trouble. It'd be better if they did, really, as then it would cause authorities in the port countries to pierce the veil and shake down the owners.
- trhway 5y agoNever heard that being an issue. As long as the crew is sticking together. Back in 199x my father worked on a fish trawling fleet which consisted of a former USSR ships "privatized" by a "New Russian" businessman. The fleet at various times - depending on success/failure of negotiations with whatever warlord would happen to control given territory on a given morning - was based at various places in Mozambique and Somali. The fleet owner having no laws over him and being otherwise very shrewd and unscrupulous and being perfectly able to reach say our family in Russia (though that would really be against his interests) had never even delayed payments to the crew as that would mean angering 20-30 able bodied men who are in control of one of his ships in a place with practically no laws (and with the crews of the other ships definitely not in support of the owner on that issue).
- R0b0t1 5y agoThat is what I would expect considering the time period and nationality of your story. But, the material that exploded in that one port was there because a Russian businessman abandoned his crew. It is sad, shows there is some deterioration of social fabric in Russia. The good news is the legal system of their home country is functioning enough they were not punished for it. If you have crew from the middle east it is possible they will be tried in a kangaroo court for some weird theft charges related to abandoning the ship.
- JoeAltmaier 5y agoThe ocean is a different place in so many ways. My cousin is a Merchant Marine Engineer. Some big ships can't leave port without one, yet they are in short supply. So he's paid a lot per voyage. Two or three multi-week voyages and he'd done working for the year. Early on in his career, an officer would request his passport. To make things go faster in port, all the passports could be presented at once for quicker clearing of customs etc. Of course he learned immediately, this meant he could not leave the ship in foreign port. And the officer sandbagged when he requested his passport back. The result was, he was essentially held captive for several months aboard ship, several times longer than he was contracted for. And the ship could count on having an Engineer for every leg of the journey. Now he knows better, keeps his passport on his person at all times.
- codazoda 5y agoI was just reading about Cuba the other day. It seems that only the captain can leave the ship there until all passengers are cleared. I presume he needs to take their passports with him. That creates a bit of a catch-22 here.
- downrightmike 5y agoSeems like you should order a second passport once you have the first. Give the Capt the first one that is now invalid, but since he can't scan it, how will he know?
- nicoburns 5y agoIn the UK you can actually legitimately get two passports if you can show you need it for work (I think it's typically for travelling to countries who don't like each other and won't let you in if you have stamps from the other one). I wonder if this would count.
- manquer 5y agoOr if you have dual nationality, You could use your other one. Really though, most embassies will issue travel documentation if your passport is lost without too much difficulty ( it is effectively lost if you cannot get access to it). If that sailor really wanted to leave, he can get another one from his embassy. This is more power dynamic between employee/ employer , I have seen similar stunts pulled by agents who get foreign workers in middle east.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y agoThey need to scuttle their ships.
- dk1138 5y agoI agree...it would send a message to beach these ships in high-visibility areas
- rob74 5y agoMight be an alternative if you're off the coast of, say, Romania. I wouldn't recommend it off the coast of Somalia though...
- tacocataco 5y agoThese sailors are essentially hostage for corporate debt. Do you expect the hostage takers to treat misbehavior lightly? Instead of being on a boat prison they would end up in regular prison. Edit: wording
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago"The prop shaft seals started leaking and running the bilge pumps 24/7 used up all the diesel. Prove me wrong."
- h2odragon 5y agoNot related but I have to mention it: There's a picture of a "garden" bucket in the article, with an obviously just bought fresh onion on top of the dirt. I guess to communicate its "garden"-ness. I cant help but wonder, if its OK to stage small details like that to be more favorable to the narrative, ... where is the line drawn?
- kevingadd 5y agoThe owner of the bucket could have taken that photo when it was new. Can imagine posting that on social media "just made my first garden bucket!", or having a series of photos from points in time to show the progress
- tdeck 5y agoThat onion has clearly sprouted a lot, so perhaps it's a seed onion? It's not uncommon to buy small seed onions and plant them so they'll get bigger (although I personally don't see the point, and would grow small bunching onions instead). In this case it's probably just an old onion that sat in a bag too long and sprouted, so they decided to plant it.
- h2odragon 5y agono roots. its bought.
- tdeck 5y agoIt's not a "just-bought" onion. What grocery store sells an onion with an eight inch sprout coming out of it? At least in the U.S. such an onion would be unsellable, which is why I think they found this one in a bag somewhere and decided to plant it.
- h2odragon 5y agohttps://www.walmart.com/ip/Green-Onions-Bunch/51259361?athbdg=L1600 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Green-Onions-Bunch/51259361?athbd... Its not a sprout; its fresh.
- jollybean 5y agoCompanies need be insured for ABC if not, illegal to go anywhere near a port in a rich country.
- bserge 5y agoIf these were sail ships, they'd have been commandeered a long time ago. Sadly, they're all dependent on expensive af fuel.
- jefftk 5y agoSailing ships require large amounts of labor, which is even more expensive.
- bserge 5y agoYeah, that's not why they're not being used. More to do with the absolutely massive size that motor powered ships can have.
- MattGaiser 5y agoYes, but then the labour can just take over the ship if they aren’t paid.
- hikerclimber1 5y agoGood.
- themaninthedark 5y agoSomething interesting to me is that this article comes a t a time when shipping is reaching record highs. We used to pay around 4k for a container from Asia to the US, now the price is 25k. It looks like there a a large amount of volatility in the shipping system as this is not the first time we have seen price jumps and crashes. I remember hearing about shipping congestion/issues in SEA a couple years ago as well as periodic stories about congestion/issues at Longbeach. With global trade ever on the rise, we should expect to see it remain profitable, unless there are too many companies coming in and trying to undercut each other.
- m463 5y agoI wonder what effect Ever Given had on all of this
- themaninthedark 5y agoWe were having issues before the Ever Given but that did not help. Our orders come from Asia to Eastern Sea board.
- sytelus 5y agoIt looks like our demand/supply ecosystem was setup with negligible buffers and unprepared for any big disruptions. This is a chain reaction that might go on for quite some time. Meanwhile prices of goods is getting pretty crazy!
- maxerickson 5y agoI don't think it is a given that a system with more buffers would have made more material available over the last 18 months. We might have been worse off.
- m0zg 5y agoSounds to me like people will have to overthrow their governments to "go back to normal" anytime soon. The lack of normalcy increases the power of those imposing lockdowns and restrictions dramatically, and they aren't going to let go of that. There's no precedent for any government ever willingly ceding significant power. Just watch "V for Vendetta" - it's the same thing, except in the movie it was called the "St. Mary's virus". Incredible foresight.
- m0zg 5y agoIt's all outlined here, down to the election: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnyvFtfRCu8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnyvFtfRCu8
- andy_ppp 5y agoWhen I worked with a container shipping company there was a mechanic trapped on a ship for months past his shore date but there was no one to cover him. He looked at me, the computer guy from the office, carrying a large wrench, like he wanted to kill me just to get off the ship.
- phkahler 5y agoHow about the crew sells the ship for scrap. Had they left after their pay stopped the ship would be abandoned. Not sure how salvage works, but isnt there an element of "finders keepers"? If you dont work for the company as evidenced by them not paying you for X months, aren't you the finder of a big floating pule of scrap? I'm sure there's a flaw in my logic...
- betwixthewires 5y agoThere's really nothing wrong with your logic, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way. These ships are usually abandoned at port, which means what happens is subject to the laws of the country they're in. Most countries have laws about ships and shipping to prevent becoming responsible for abandoned ships, it's common for some crew member to be criminally liable for abandoning a ship at port. Then you take into account bankruptcy filings in the flag country with assets worldwide, it would be very hard for a person to claim a ship as salvage in territorial waters while litigation about assets is ongoing. Ideally it would be as simple as you say, but when you're talking about potentially billions of dollars in machinery and cargo, owned by probably hundreds of different interests, the people on these ships get caught in the middle of the mess and nobody with a financial interest in the situation wants to help the poor saps take their money from them.
- stjohnswarts 5y agoWow this seems like an easily solvable problem and one reason why we have the UN. I guess they'd rather be bickering in committees than helping individuals trapped on these boats.
- smabie 5y agoThese crew members are irrational: you gonna stay on a ship for years without pay while you wait for your year of back pay? Why?
- thepasswordis 5y agoBecause many/most of the people working on the ships are basically slaves.
- spicybbq 5y agoThey don't know in advance how long the wait will be, and time that has already passed is a sunk cost, so they are stuck waiting "another couple of months" over and over again. There is a survivorship bias in this story because we don't hear about the (presumably much more numerous) sailors in similar situations who got paid after a much shorter wait.
- silexia 5y agoWe need to eliminate the limited liability company. Far too many abuses are perpetrated only because no one is ultimately liable, from cigarette companies selling products that kill to situations like this where ships and people are abandoned.