19 ms·

If You’re So Successful, Why Are You Still Working 70 Hours a Week?

252 points by absolute100 5y ago

absolute100 5y ago
"Work exceptionally long hours when you need to or want to, but do so consciously, for specified time periods, and to achieve specific goals. Don’t let it become a habit because you have forgotten how to work or live any other way." -- Having constraints on your time should help you better prioritize and utilize your energy levels during the day to boost your productivity.
AllSeason 5y ago
Ask Elon Musk or any uber-successful person in our culture. What would our world look like if Steve Jobs went home early every day?
blamestross 5y ago
I don't. I've hit the peak of promotion that I think I want in my career at a FAANG. I work from home and in practice I work 30ish hours a week. I do put a decent amount of effort into making sure the time that I do work is highly productive. Depression and chronic illness practically limited my working hours so I learned how to "work with" what I have. If you let go of the ladder-climbing and the impostor syndrome, you don't have to work like you ego depends on it.
GnarfGnarf 5y ago
This post incorrectly assumes that working is not fun and should be minimized. Maybe the work is the point.
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago
  What do you mean, incorrectly? For the vast majority of folks, work isn't fun - not when compared to not working, anyway. I mean, do you really think that most retail or foodservice workers think their job is fun? And even when folks like their jobs, there are practical limits. Some jobs are stressful and lower work hours minimize mistakes. Would you rather have emergency room employees in their 35th or 65th hour on the clock that week? Maybe work isn't the point, especially considering the unpaid work most of us do (and someone working 70 hours a week is surely expecting others to do, paid or not).
- dougmwne 5y ago
  The point of what? Life? If it is the point for you, that's great, but it's certainly not the point for me. Don't incorrectly assume most people share your purpose or values.
  - zamadatix 5y ago
    It sounds like you're both saying the same thing "Don't incorrectly assume most people share your purpose or values". They never prescribed everyone must have these values rather they pointed out the article does not consider some may.
- lr4444lr 5y ago
  Wait until you have kids. 70 hours at work is not fun unless you own the company.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  If the work was the point, you'd have to pay to do it, they wouldn't pay you.
JoeAltmaier 5y ago
Looks like a small demographic of east-coast financial professionals was studied? Anyway that's the examples given. May have nothing to do with 'us'.
Nursie 5y ago
I don’t, I work about 35, and right now I’m taking a three month hiatus. Always take time to see the bigger picture.
- RIMR 5y ago
  This is certainly good for you, but take a moment and reflect on how difficult this would be for 99% of working people in this world. Our need for labor should not be allowing us to harm the wellbeing of their laborers. You are clearly in a very privileged position, but it's not a position I can disagree with, only one that needs to be universal.
  - solitus 5y ago
    The 3 months hiatus sounds like a luxury for most yes, but 35 hours a week is standard in many developed country...
  - Nursie 5y ago
    I am highly privileged, I do realise, my answer was given in the context of “If you’re so successful”. I imagine for HN as a demographic I’m only averagely successful, but it’s quite a skewed demographic.
anovikov 5y ago
Sadly solution to this is to become a dick, be rude to people and just filter your interactions a great lot - otherwise lots of "nice" people will softly offload their job on you for free.
Freestyler_3 5y ago
When you are succesful your work has been very rewarding, you will keep chasing that feeling. I don't work that much. I do not hate my work at all. I went for something I really enjoy, and I don't really need many holidays to "recover" like I hear other people say.
sharadov 5y ago
Why do you suppose that people don't enjoy working 70 hours a week? My dad regularly worked 70 hour weeks - had multiple careers doctor/businessman/public figure. But he had a ton of help - manager, personal assistant, chauffeur. Everything on the home front was outsourced. He loved it. But he had a lot of control. Most people, I observe who burn out, do because of other reasons - work politics, poor health and ultimately not feeling in control of their lives. Not everyone is built to work like that, but some are. And they can sustain it for long periods of time.
- Taylor_OD 5y ago
  Most people don't enjoy working 70 hours a week.
  - hungryforcodes 5y ago
    You're not most people. I'll work 40 or 50 hours a week then spend another 30 on side projects happily! That's 80 hours just working on "stuff". No TikTok. So it really depends. Elon Musk famously claimed he worked 100 hours a week.
    - xkqd 5y ago
      I’m waiting for confirmation but I don’t think the comment thread is suggesting that all “work” is suspended after 40 hours. I think they’re saying that your obligation to your employer should float close to 40. I’m a big proponent of not regularly giving employers extra time, but I urge everyone to make the most of the remaining 168-40 hours a week - that means minimizing idle leisure too.
      - hungryforcodes 5y ago
        Totally agree with this.
  - itisit 5y ago
    Do you have the data to back that up? /s
solitus 5y ago
"J'fais dla poudre, pour travailler plus, pour faire plus d'argent, pour faire plus de poudre, pour travailler plus, pour faire plus d'argent..." Classic Punk song from Vulgaires Machins (Québec band), translates to: "I do coke, to work more, to make more money, to do more coke, to work more, to make more money..."
motohagiography 5y ago
Working 70hrs a week is terrible, crushing it 70hrs a week is never enough. (shlinkedin has ruined me), but sincerely, work is inversely proportional to leverage, which implies someone working that hard doesn't have a lot of leverage. If you don't have leverage, you aren't managing well, and if you aren't managing well, that's a problem worth solving. This seems abstract and businessy, but understanding what people mean when they use the term "leverage," in its myriad forms is a very useful concept to master.
hintymad 5y ago
It's as if work is just toiling, but in reality it is not. Some people may just love meeting people and calling the shot. Some people may just love reading papers and tweaking and building systems. Some people may just love deriving equations and writing papers and giving talks. They call such activities work, but they enjoy doing them. What matters is not hours but choice: can one choose to use her time at her own will? If she can, then I don't see any issue at all.
- justwalt 5y ago
  This is completely tangential to your point, but why did you choose to use “she” as the pronoun in your last sentence? I see this more and more frequently, and I assume it has something to do with being more inclusive (so as not to imply only a man could be the subject), but I don’t want to assume. Why not use “they” instead?
  - Clubber 5y ago
    >If she can, then I don't see any issue at all. >Why not use “they” instead? It's been 30 years since I've studied formal writing in earnest, but "they," is, or at least was, grammatically incorrect in that sentence, unless you are referring to more than one person. English doesn't have a proper gender neutral singular pronoun. People have bastardized "they" to fit that role though because they don't know the gender, or because changing social and cultural pressures. https://style.mla.org/using-singular-they/ https://style.mla.org/using-singular-they/
    - zabzonk 5y ago
      I think it is grammatical, though it may change the semantics. OTOH: > can one choose to use her time at her own will? changing to: can one choose to use they time at they own will? is nothing like English. You could of course use "their", but that has a kind of distancing effect.
    - pwinnski 5y ago
      They as a singular gender-neutral pronoun is far, far older than 30 years[0], so while I believe that you were taught that, you were taught incorrectly. So was I! It is neither a bastardization, nor grammatically incorrect, to use they as a singular gender-neutral pronoun. 0. https://www.academicwritingsuccess.com/the-astonishing-history-of-singular-they/ https://www.academicwritingsuccess.com/the-astonishing-histo...
neogodless 5y ago
The headline itself is an example of a question that answers itself. Another example would be "if you've saved up a lot of money, why don't you spend more?" Well because I saved it by not spending too much. And in this case, "success" is working long hours, because of what these workers believe. Success is the appearance of working hard, and having put the effort in. The article doesn't really address income/spending, though. Are they making excellent money because of working so hard? What do they do with it? If they spend most of it, they have to keep earning to sustain their lifestyle. Of course, some people spend little, work hard, earn a lot, and perhaps never reach "enough", where they can work less, spend a bit more, and actually enjoy the fruit of their labor.
- inetknght 5y ago
  No, I don't think people work 70 hours because they're successful. I think they work 70 hours out of necessity and others think that makes them successful. If I were successful then I definitely wouldn't be _working_. Yet here I am working many hours and others claim I am successful.
  - neogodless 5y ago
    You're defining "successful" as not having to work. They define it differently (just as "others" define your "working many hours" as successful.)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - mikecoles 5y ago
    Get a different job. If you don't love what you're doing, why do it? I you love doing something, why not get paid for it? People can be working 70 hours a week and enjoying it. Because you associate work with being miserable doesn't mean others do.
    - inetknght 5y ago
      > If you don't love what you're doing, why do it? I you love doing something, why not get paid for it? What I love doing doesn't pay nearly as much as what I don't love doing.
jeffreyrogers 5y ago
Based on people I know, either (1) they enjoy it and don't have anything else they'd rather do. This is common among business owners. Or (2) they also spend a lot of money and no other job is going to pay them remotely close to what they need to earn to continue spending the way they do. This is more common in industries like law and finance.
GDC7 5y ago
The only true answer is that out there are 8 billion people waking up every day. And all they do is seeking social relevance, and by doing so they are inadvertedly diluting your own social relevance. There is not a mechanism which allows you to stop working and freeze your social relevance in place as some sort of videogame checkpoint type manner. You stop working and your relevance is eroded away...hell you could keep the amount of work constant or even increase it and your relevance would be eroded away if you are in a sector or a country which is not performing well. The biggest lie that those at the top of the social pyramid have ever managed to pass onto the rest of us is that "it ain't a zero sum game" Well, matter of fact it is.
- elpakal 5y ago
  some people work because they have to though, it's not just about "social relevance".
  - sgillen 5y ago
    True, but this article is about "insecure overachievers" who work at "elite professional organizations". I think there's a decent argument that these people are largely driven by prestige AKA social relevance.
- milesvp 5y ago
  I think this is sort of a false dichotomy, and potentially a defeatist take. There is an increasing body of evidence that any work done above 40hrs/wk for thought work is only beneficial for a few weeks at a time. After which overtime is necessary just to maintain what would have otherwise taken only 40hrs. What this tells me is that it's essential to learn how to strategically work longer hours, knowing that the recovery time will reduce your hours by at least as much (personal experience is that 2x is actually more realistic to getting back to normal measurable output). I see it as no different than athletes who learn when to expend that extra energy in competition such that it doesn't leave them flagging the rest of the match. I also think you may be overestimating the amount of effort it takes to sort of tread water if necessary. I suspect it's more of a logarithmic decay function in terms of social relevance. I've come to think that the hardest part of staying socially relevant isn't the amount of effort it takes to stay on top, but to actually recognize when it's important to spend effort on some new trend, and when it's important to ignore other trends. I think for this it's even more important to take a step back and take time out to reflect rather than actively trying to work insane hours.
RIMR 5y ago
I have, since the beginning of my career, refuses to work for anyone that expects more than 40 hours per week of me. I ask it as part of my interview. I'm not against the occasional crunch, or traveling for work on occasion. Those are fine. But if an employer expects more than 40 hours per week consistently, I will simply not work for that company. And so far, I have remained upwardly mobile, and more importantly, happy with the work that I do and satisfied with the amount of time I am afforded for friends, family, and hobbies. Everyone searching for a job should be asking their employers hard questions. Job offers aren't worth it if you're being exploited.
paulpauper 5y ago
Wages for professionals, such as law, medicine, tech, finance, consulting, etc., have really ballooned over the past decade, since 2008 especially, even after accounting for student loan debt and inflation. This makes working long hours more attractive, as the financial payoff is so great both in terms of wages but also by investing one's income in rapidly appreciating assets such as stocks and real estate (the post-2009 bull market is the biggest and longest ever). Consequently, there are many people on Reddit and Hacker News on popular subs such as /r/personalfinance , r/investing, /r/financialindependence, /r/wallstreetbets (a lot of gambling, yes, but also many rich people who have 6-figures to play with) and /r/fatfire who have amassed considerable wealth by late 20 or 30s. Putting in long hours in your 20s and 30s to have a massive nest egg that will last you the rest of your life by your 40s seems like a good trade-off.
- Arisaka1 5y ago
  As an impoverished 30 year old I wish I was more focused in building and cultivating a career path. What I did instead was "a 9-5 on something I'm good at" (not coding as I'm career switching). Guess what followed after that: Odd jobs. Yes, they pay the bills but they don't build career progression. You cannot sell yourself to someone to hire you for your 1 year experience in 8 different things. This is why considering the money alone isn't enough. And yes, you also need to be educated on personal finance because if you were born in a poor family chances are you'll be spending the money as soon as you touch them.
  - adventured 5y ago
    > You cannot sell yourself to someone to hire you for your 1 year experience in 8 different things. It heavily depends on what those things are. If you have one year of legitimate experience in cyber security right now, you've got a job almost anytime you want it. The same goes for many in-demand programming languages at present. That level of experience will not initially net you a very high paying tech job, however compared to the median it'll be a good paying job and you can work your way up from there.
    - 5y ago
whytaka 5y ago
Because I'm not nearly as good at any hobbies as much as I'm good at my job and being good at something is what gives me day-to-day satisfaction. Having a high wage but not enough stored wealth to feel invincible against an increasingly uncertain future, I'm spending more time feeling good about work than finding and investing in a hobby that'll make me truly happy.
- justinator 5y ago
  > Having a high wage but not enough stored wealth to feel invincible against an increasingly uncertain future Hate to be the one to tell you this, but there is no guarantee on what the future may bring, money can't fix everything, and true security is a lie. Live your life in the here and now, before you regret wasting it.
  - ballenf 5y ago
    I read the comment to be working hard is what brings satisfaction. Some people really enjoy hard work and aren't doing it just as a means to afford leisure.
    - Nbox9 5y ago
      I read the comment to say that a hobby might make him “truly happy” but because of the uncertainty of the future he’s working hard and getting some level of satisfaction from that. He’s maximizing for security not for happiness.
      - imtringued 5y ago
        When everyone is doing that you have a recession. http://www.pkarchive.org/theory/baby.html http://www.pkarchive.org/theory/baby.html
        Nbox9 5y ago
        I don’t understand the relevance of that link with your point, although I mostly agree with your point I’m hoping you can provide more information on how your evidence is relevant. The link is mostly about what happens when there is too little currency. Someone deciding to work 40 hours a week instead of 70 would, if anything, reduce the amount of currency in circulation because more wealthy people tend to have larger savings and a person working 70 hours a week is probably making more money than if they were working 40.
neals 5y ago
Because I know what it means to work a 40hour shitty job. And I mean shitty. As in fill paint cans and inhale paint fumes all week shitty. I mean crawl into a conveyor belt that's stuck, use a torch to heat it up and a sledgehammer to straighten it shitty. That I'm now able to what I do and earn what I earn, to me, is like a miracle and I enjoy every minute of it.
- clipradiowallet 5y ago
  I empathize with your sentiment.. I checked out of IT-related work in my 20's, and the moment I checked back in was sitting on the floor of a production welding shop, impact drilling holes through plate steel. I had this moment of clarity when I realized that however "unhappy" IT made me, it wasn't nearly as miserable as the alternative I had stumbled into. Or as my dad put it: better to work with your head than your hands, isn't it son?
  - effingwewt 5y ago
    This all still skirts the main issue. Why does the janitor get paid so much less for a shitty job almost no one wants to do? Why do we have damn near minimum wage construction jobs? Many jobs are important, all should be paid accordingly. Failing that, shouldn't the most labor intensive jobs therefore pay the best? The incentives are so skewed in society now. And I say that as someone who has done all kinds of crazy jobs from cushy to hell.
    - jw433 5y ago
      Skills. What % of software engineers could competently perform a janitorial job, preferences aside? What % of janitors could competently perform a software engineering job?
      - effingwewt 5y ago
        6 week coding bootcamps would beg to differ with 'skills'.
throwaway98797 5y ago
There’s a high associated with intense work that you only get when around other people working hard. There’s a reason why the strongest bounds are formed under pressure. Pity that you can’t get that high and peace at the same time.
- jimsimmons 5y ago
  Isn't that "high" a flimsy thing though? It's like you're lowkey advocating for a trance like state. I'm not sure that's what I want to end up doing all my life -- be high with similar addicts.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
> If You’re So Successful, Why Are You Still Working 70 Hours a Week? Because I like it. But, then, you probably wouldn't think of me as "successful." I'm not on anyone's payroll, and I won't be zipping around in any private jets, in the foreseeable future. I would not agree with that assessment (I feel very successful), but it's not worth arguing about. Hi Ho, Hi Ho, It's off to work I go...
- drdeadringer 5y ago
  What will happen to you when you retire? Will you ever retire or will you work until you're dead? Are you someone for whom retirement, or not working, quite literally means death? Honest questions.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    I am retired. Didn't actually have much choice in the matter. No one wants to work with us "olds."
codegeek 5y ago
I work doing what I want to do so I don't count hours. Yes you need breaks and cannot always sprint 70 hour weeks but I absolutely would continue to do whenever I can because I am building my future with it. If you are in a dead end job working 790 hours, sucks to be you.
Proven 5y ago
Because I like it
adolph 5y ago
Because the prize for a pie eating contest is more pie. https://workingwithmckinsey.blogspot.com/2013/03/McKinsey-pie-eating-contest.html https://workingwithmckinsey.blogspot.com/2013/03/McKinsey-pi...
root_axis 5y ago
Well, it's 70 hours sitting in front of a PC. All things considered, it's about as easy as it gets in life besides being born rich.
ruchin_k 5y ago
It's possible that the most self-made successful people see wealth / money as a means to pick what they want to spend 70 hours doing rather than whether to spend 70 hours doing anything. If they want to spend 70 hours a week playing tennis so be it. Or if they want to work on a new idea they had, equally fair. It is likely that success ultimately only buys the freedom to choose where to spend your time. I know I've worked jobs and internships which required only couple of hours a day - and I was miserable. Working >70 hours a week on my own startup has felt more rewarding than any previous job :)
CraftingLinks 5y ago
Here I am with my 24hr work week! Not an American of course,they can't afford that.
whoisstan 5y ago
Because what I do in my so called "work" time is what I would do in my "free" time as well.
- asdff 5y ago
  What a privileged position to find oneself in
asah 5y ago
haha, 70 hours. So cute!
Florin_Andrei 5y ago
Because nothing else fulfills you.
- philosopher1234 5y ago
  Thats sad. Americans need meaning beyond career.
  - phendrenad2 5y ago
    How do you know they're an American?
    - philosopher1234 5y ago
      I could be wrong, they could be from anywhere in the world, but it seems more likely that they’re American than European if their life is dedicated to work
      - phendrenad2 5y ago
        Isn't that circular logic though?
        philosopher1234 5y ago
        no, this is probabilistic logic based on my experience
cerradokids 5y ago
Because I love what I do.
giantg2 5y ago
I'm not successful and I don't work 70hr weeks. I had worked about that much for a while (40-50 at IT job + 16-20 at Lowes), and I still wasn't successful.
banku_brougham 5y ago
Burnt out and going to quit soon. Taking a year+ off to try and remember what I used to enjoy.
thisismeme 5y ago
In Germany, the state will punish you if you work more than 32 hours per week by very high taxes. Germany has the highest average tax level for single persons (don't confuse with highest possible tax): https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TABLE_I6 https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TABLE_I6
- hayd 5y ago
  Is this to say, you're taxed a higher rate if you work 36 hours compared to someone who is earning more than you but only for 32 hours? That... seems unfair.
  - phendrenad2 5y ago
    That's why the "Silicaon Valley of Germany" is full of American multinationals and companies that went out of business.
phendrenad2 5y ago
I enjoy the sense of accomplishment that comes from making beautiful things (mostly code) more than I enjoy things like vacations, social situations, etc. That's just me, but I think I'm not necessarily in the minority on "Hacker" News.

252 points by absolute100 5y ago

"Work exceptionally long hours when you need to or want to, but do so consciously, for specified time periods, and to achieve specific goals. Don’t let it become a habit because you have forgotten how to work or live any other way." -- Having constraints on your time should help you better prioritize and utilize your energy levels during the day to boost your productivity.

AllSeason 5y ago

Ask Elon Musk or any uber-successful person in our culture. What would our world look like if Steve Jobs went home early every day?

blamestross 5y ago

I don't. I've hit the peak of promotion that I think I want in my career at a FAANG. I work from home and in practice I work 30ish hours a week. I do put a decent amount of effort into making sure the time that I do work is highly productive. Depression and chronic illness practically limited my working hours so I learned how to "work with" what I have. If you let go of the ladder-climbing and the impostor syndrome, you don't have to work like you ego depends on it.

GnarfGnarf 5y ago

This post incorrectly assumes that working is not fun and should be minimized. Maybe the work is the point.

Broken_Hippo 5y ago
What do you mean, incorrectly? For the vast majority of folks, work isn't fun - not when compared to not working, anyway. I mean, do you really think that most retail or foodservice workers think their job is fun? And even when folks like their jobs, there are practical limits. Some jobs are stressful and lower work hours minimize mistakes. Would you rather have emergency room employees in their 35th or 65th hour on the clock that week? Maybe work isn't the point, especially considering the unpaid work most of us do (and someone working 70 hours a week is surely expecting others to do, paid or not).
dougmwne 5y ago
The point of what? Life? If it is the point for you, that's great, but it's certainly not the point for me. Don't incorrectly assume most people share your purpose or values.
- zamadatix 5y ago
  It sounds like you're both saying the same thing "Don't incorrectly assume most people share your purpose or values". They never prescribed everyone must have these values rather they pointed out the article does not consider some may.
lr4444lr 5y ago
Wait until you have kids. 70 hours at work is not fun unless you own the company.
pessimizer 5y ago
If the work was the point, you'd have to pay to do it, they wouldn't pay you.

JoeAltmaier 5y ago

Looks like a small demographic of east-coast financial professionals was studied? Anyway that's the examples given. May have nothing to do with 'us'.

Nursie 5y ago

I don’t, I work about 35, and right now I’m taking a three month hiatus. Always take time to see the bigger picture.

RIMR 5y ago
This is certainly good for you, but take a moment and reflect on how difficult this would be for 99% of working people in this world. Our need for labor should not be allowing us to harm the wellbeing of their laborers. You are clearly in a very privileged position, but it's not a position I can disagree with, only one that needs to be universal.
- solitus 5y ago
  The 3 months hiatus sounds like a luxury for most yes, but 35 hours a week is standard in many developed country...
- Nursie 5y ago
  I am highly privileged, I do realise, my answer was given in the context of “If you’re so successful”. I imagine for HN as a demographic I’m only averagely successful, but it’s quite a skewed demographic.

anovikov 5y ago

Sadly solution to this is to become a dick, be rude to people and just filter your interactions a great lot - otherwise lots of "nice" people will softly offload their job on you for free.

Freestyler_3 5y ago

When you are succesful your work has been very rewarding, you will keep chasing that feeling. I don't work that much. I do not hate my work at all. I went for something I really enjoy, and I don't really need many holidays to "recover" like I hear other people say.

sharadov 5y ago

Why do you suppose that people don't enjoy working 70 hours a week? My dad regularly worked 70 hour weeks - had multiple careers doctor/businessman/public figure. But he had a ton of help - manager, personal assistant, chauffeur. Everything on the home front was outsourced. He loved it. But he had a lot of control. Most people, I observe who burn out, do because of other reasons - work politics, poor health and ultimately not feeling in control of their lives. Not everyone is built to work like that, but some are. And they can sustain it for long periods of time.

Taylor_OD 5y ago
Most people don't enjoy working 70 hours a week.
- hungryforcodes 5y ago
  You're not most people. I'll work 40 or 50 hours a week then spend another 30 on side projects happily! That's 80 hours just working on "stuff". No TikTok. So it really depends. Elon Musk famously claimed he worked 100 hours a week.
  - xkqd 5y ago
    I’m waiting for confirmation but I don’t think the comment thread is suggesting that all “work” is suspended after 40 hours. I think they’re saying that your obligation to your employer should float close to 40. I’m a big proponent of not regularly giving employers extra time, but I urge everyone to make the most of the remaining 168-40 hours a week - that means minimizing idle leisure too.
    - hungryforcodes 5y ago
      Totally agree with this.
- itisit 5y ago
  Do you have the data to back that up? /s

solitus 5y ago

"J'fais dla poudre, pour travailler plus, pour faire plus d'argent, pour faire plus de poudre, pour travailler plus, pour faire plus d'argent..." Classic Punk song from Vulgaires Machins (Québec band), translates to: "I do coke, to work more, to make more money, to do more coke, to work more, to make more money..."

motohagiography 5y ago

Working 70hrs a week is terrible, crushing it 70hrs a week is never enough. (shlinkedin has ruined me), but sincerely, work is inversely proportional to leverage, which implies someone working that hard doesn't have a lot of leverage. If you don't have leverage, you aren't managing well, and if you aren't managing well, that's a problem worth solving. This seems abstract and businessy, but understanding what people mean when they use the term "leverage," in its myriad forms is a very useful concept to master.

hintymad 5y ago

It's as if work is just toiling, but in reality it is not. Some people may just love meeting people and calling the shot. Some people may just love reading papers and tweaking and building systems. Some people may just love deriving equations and writing papers and giving talks. They call such activities work, but they enjoy doing them. What matters is not hours but choice: can one choose to use her time at her own will? If she can, then I don't see any issue at all.

justwalt 5y ago
This is completely tangential to your point, but why did you choose to use “she” as the pronoun in your last sentence? I see this more and more frequently, and I assume it has something to do with being more inclusive (so as not to imply only a man could be the subject), but I don’t want to assume. Why not use “they” instead?
- Clubber 5y ago
  >If she can, then I don't see any issue at all. >Why not use “they” instead? It's been 30 years since I've studied formal writing in earnest, but "they," is, or at least was, grammatically incorrect in that sentence, unless you are referring to more than one person. English doesn't have a proper gender neutral singular pronoun. People have bastardized "they" to fit that role though because they don't know the gender, or because changing social and cultural pressures. https://style.mla.org/using-singular-they/ https://style.mla.org/using-singular-they/
  - zabzonk 5y ago
    I think it is grammatical, though it may change the semantics. OTOH: > can one choose to use her time at her own will? changing to: can one choose to use they time at they own will? is nothing like English. You could of course use "their", but that has a kind of distancing effect.
  - pwinnski 5y ago
    They as a singular gender-neutral pronoun is far, far older than 30 years[0], so while I believe that you were taught that, you were taught incorrectly. So was I! It is neither a bastardization, nor grammatically incorrect, to use they as a singular gender-neutral pronoun. 0. https://www.academicwritingsuccess.com/the-astonishing-history-of-singular-they/ https://www.academicwritingsuccess.com/the-astonishing-histo...

neogodless 5y ago

The headline itself is an example of a question that answers itself. Another example would be "if you've saved up a lot of money, why don't you spend more?" Well because I saved it by not spending too much. And in this case, "success" is working long hours, because of what these workers believe. Success is the appearance of working hard, and having put the effort in. The article doesn't really address income/spending, though. Are they making excellent money because of working so hard? What do they do with it? If they spend most of it, they have to keep earning to sustain their lifestyle. Of course, some people spend little, work hard, earn a lot, and perhaps never reach "enough", where they can work less, spend a bit more, and actually enjoy the fruit of their labor.

inetknght 5y ago
No, I don't think people work 70 hours because they're successful. I think they work 70 hours out of necessity and others think that makes them successful. If I were successful then I definitely wouldn't be _working_. Yet here I am working many hours and others claim I am successful.
- neogodless 5y ago
  You're defining "successful" as not having to work. They define it differently (just as "others" define your "working many hours" as successful.)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mikecoles 5y ago
  Get a different job. If you don't love what you're doing, why do it? I you love doing something, why not get paid for it? People can be working 70 hours a week and enjoying it. Because you associate work with being miserable doesn't mean others do.
  - inetknght 5y ago
    > If you don't love what you're doing, why do it? I you love doing something, why not get paid for it? What I love doing doesn't pay nearly as much as what I don't love doing.

jeffreyrogers 5y ago

Based on people I know, either (1) they enjoy it and don't have anything else they'd rather do. This is common among business owners. Or (2) they also spend a lot of money and no other job is going to pay them remotely close to what they need to earn to continue spending the way they do. This is more common in industries like law and finance.

GDC7 5y ago

The only true answer is that out there are 8 billion people waking up every day. And all they do is seeking social relevance, and by doing so they are inadvertedly diluting your own social relevance. There is not a mechanism which allows you to stop working and freeze your social relevance in place as some sort of videogame checkpoint type manner. You stop working and your relevance is eroded away...hell you could keep the amount of work constant or even increase it and your relevance would be eroded away if you are in a sector or a country which is not performing well. The biggest lie that those at the top of the social pyramid have ever managed to pass onto the rest of us is that "it ain't a zero sum game" Well, matter of fact it is.

elpakal 5y ago
some people work because they have to though, it's not just about "social relevance".
- sgillen 5y ago
  True, but this article is about "insecure overachievers" who work at "elite professional organizations". I think there's a decent argument that these people are largely driven by prestige AKA social relevance.
milesvp 5y ago
I think this is sort of a false dichotomy, and potentially a defeatist take. There is an increasing body of evidence that any work done above 40hrs/wk for thought work is only beneficial for a few weeks at a time. After which overtime is necessary just to maintain what would have otherwise taken only 40hrs. What this tells me is that it's essential to learn how to strategically work longer hours, knowing that the recovery time will reduce your hours by at least as much (personal experience is that 2x is actually more realistic to getting back to normal measurable output). I see it as no different than athletes who learn when to expend that extra energy in competition such that it doesn't leave them flagging the rest of the match. I also think you may be overestimating the amount of effort it takes to sort of tread water if necessary. I suspect it's more of a logarithmic decay function in terms of social relevance. I've come to think that the hardest part of staying socially relevant isn't the amount of effort it takes to stay on top, but to actually recognize when it's important to spend effort on some new trend, and when it's important to ignore other trends. I think for this it's even more important to take a step back and take time out to reflect rather than actively trying to work insane hours.

RIMR 5y ago

I have, since the beginning of my career, refuses to work for anyone that expects more than 40 hours per week of me. I ask it as part of my interview. I'm not against the occasional crunch, or traveling for work on occasion. Those are fine. But if an employer expects more than 40 hours per week consistently, I will simply not work for that company. And so far, I have remained upwardly mobile, and more importantly, happy with the work that I do and satisfied with the amount of time I am afforded for friends, family, and hobbies. Everyone searching for a job should be asking their employers hard questions. Job offers aren't worth it if you're being exploited.

paulpauper 5y ago

Wages for professionals, such as law, medicine, tech, finance, consulting, etc., have really ballooned over the past decade, since 2008 especially, even after accounting for student loan debt and inflation. This makes working long hours more attractive, as the financial payoff is so great both in terms of wages but also by investing one's income in rapidly appreciating assets such as stocks and real estate (the post-2009 bull market is the biggest and longest ever). Consequently, there are many people on Reddit and Hacker News on popular subs such as /r/personalfinance , r/investing, /r/financialindependence, /r/wallstreetbets (a lot of gambling, yes, but also many rich people who have 6-figures to play with) and /r/fatfire who have amassed considerable wealth by late 20 or 30s. Putting in long hours in your 20s and 30s to have a massive nest egg that will last you the rest of your life by your 40s seems like a good trade-off.

Arisaka1 5y ago
As an impoverished 30 year old I wish I was more focused in building and cultivating a career path. What I did instead was "a 9-5 on something I'm good at" (not coding as I'm career switching). Guess what followed after that: Odd jobs. Yes, they pay the bills but they don't build career progression. You cannot sell yourself to someone to hire you for your 1 year experience in 8 different things. This is why considering the money alone isn't enough. And yes, you also need to be educated on personal finance because if you were born in a poor family chances are you'll be spending the money as soon as you touch them.
- adventured 5y ago
  > You cannot sell yourself to someone to hire you for your 1 year experience in 8 different things. It heavily depends on what those things are. If you have one year of legitimate experience in cyber security right now, you've got a job almost anytime you want it. The same goes for many in-demand programming languages at present. That level of experience will not initially net you a very high paying tech job, however compared to the median it'll be a good paying job and you can work your way up from there.
  - 5y ago

whytaka 5y ago

Because I'm not nearly as good at any hobbies as much as I'm good at my job and being good at something is what gives me day-to-day satisfaction. Having a high wage but not enough stored wealth to feel invincible against an increasingly uncertain future, I'm spending more time feeling good about work than finding and investing in a hobby that'll make me truly happy.

justinator 5y ago
> Having a high wage but not enough stored wealth to feel invincible against an increasingly uncertain future Hate to be the one to tell you this, but there is no guarantee on what the future may bring, money can't fix everything, and true security is a lie. Live your life in the here and now, before you regret wasting it.
- ballenf 5y ago
  I read the comment to be working hard is what brings satisfaction. Some people really enjoy hard work and aren't doing it just as a means to afford leisure.
  - Nbox9 5y ago
    I read the comment to say that a hobby might make him “truly happy” but because of the uncertainty of the future he’s working hard and getting some level of satisfaction from that. He’s maximizing for security not for happiness.
    - imtringued 5y ago
      When everyone is doing that you have a recession. http://www.pkarchive.org/theory/baby.html http://www.pkarchive.org/theory/baby.html
      - Nbox9 5y ago
        I don’t understand the relevance of that link with your point, although I mostly agree with your point I’m hoping you can provide more information on how your evidence is relevant. The link is mostly about what happens when there is too little currency. Someone deciding to work 40 hours a week instead of 70 would, if anything, reduce the amount of currency in circulation because more wealthy people tend to have larger savings and a person working 70 hours a week is probably making more money than if they were working 40.

neals 5y ago

Because I know what it means to work a 40hour shitty job. And I mean shitty. As in fill paint cans and inhale paint fumes all week shitty. I mean crawl into a conveyor belt that's stuck, use a torch to heat it up and a sledgehammer to straighten it shitty. That I'm now able to what I do and earn what I earn, to me, is like a miracle and I enjoy every minute of it.

clipradiowallet 5y ago
I empathize with your sentiment.. I checked out of IT-related work in my 20's, and the moment I checked back in was sitting on the floor of a production welding shop, impact drilling holes through plate steel. I had this moment of clarity when I realized that however "unhappy" IT made me, it wasn't nearly as miserable as the alternative I had stumbled into. Or as my dad put it: better to work with your head than your hands, isn't it son?
- effingwewt 5y ago
  This all still skirts the main issue. Why does the janitor get paid so much less for a shitty job almost no one wants to do? Why do we have damn near minimum wage construction jobs? Many jobs are important, all should be paid accordingly. Failing that, shouldn't the most labor intensive jobs therefore pay the best? The incentives are so skewed in society now. And I say that as someone who has done all kinds of crazy jobs from cushy to hell.
  - jw433 5y ago
    Skills. What % of software engineers could competently perform a janitorial job, preferences aside? What % of janitors could competently perform a software engineering job?
    - effingwewt 5y ago
      6 week coding bootcamps would beg to differ with 'skills'.

throwaway98797 5y ago

There’s a high associated with intense work that you only get when around other people working hard. There’s a reason why the strongest bounds are formed under pressure. Pity that you can’t get that high and peace at the same time.

jimsimmons 5y ago
Isn't that "high" a flimsy thing though? It's like you're lowkey advocating for a trance like state. I'm not sure that's what I want to end up doing all my life -- be high with similar addicts.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

> If You’re So Successful, Why Are You Still Working 70 Hours a Week? Because I like it. But, then, you probably wouldn't think of me as "successful." I'm not on anyone's payroll, and I won't be zipping around in any private jets, in the foreseeable future. I would not agree with that assessment (I feel very successful), but it's not worth arguing about. Hi Ho, Hi Ho, It's off to work I go...

drdeadringer 5y ago
What will happen to you when you retire? Will you ever retire or will you work until you're dead? Are you someone for whom retirement, or not working, quite literally means death? Honest questions.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  I am retired. Didn't actually have much choice in the matter. No one wants to work with us "olds."

codegeek 5y ago

I work doing what I want to do so I don't count hours. Yes you need breaks and cannot always sprint 70 hour weeks but I absolutely would continue to do whenever I can because I am building my future with it. If you are in a dead end job working 790 hours, sucks to be you.

Proven 5y ago

Because I like it

adolph 5y ago

Because the prize for a pie eating contest is more pie. https://workingwithmckinsey.blogspot.com/2013/03/McKinsey-pie-eating-contest.html https://workingwithmckinsey.blogspot.com/2013/03/McKinsey-pi...

root_axis 5y ago

Well, it's 70 hours sitting in front of a PC. All things considered, it's about as easy as it gets in life besides being born rich.

ruchin_k 5y ago

It's possible that the most self-made successful people see wealth / money as a means to pick what they want to spend 70 hours doing rather than whether to spend 70 hours doing anything. If they want to spend 70 hours a week playing tennis so be it. Or if they want to work on a new idea they had, equally fair. It is likely that success ultimately only buys the freedom to choose where to spend your time. I know I've worked jobs and internships which required only couple of hours a day - and I was miserable. Working >70 hours a week on my own startup has felt more rewarding than any previous job :)

CraftingLinks 5y ago

Here I am with my 24hr work week! Not an American of course,they can't afford that.

whoisstan 5y ago

Because what I do in my so called "work" time is what I would do in my "free" time as well.

asdff 5y ago
What a privileged position to find oneself in

asah 5y ago

haha, 70 hours. So cute!

Florin_Andrei 5y ago

Because nothing else fulfills you.

philosopher1234 5y ago
Thats sad. Americans need meaning beyond career.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  How do you know they're an American?
  - philosopher1234 5y ago
    I could be wrong, they could be from anywhere in the world, but it seems more likely that they’re American than European if their life is dedicated to work
    - phendrenad2 5y ago
      Isn't that circular logic though?
      - philosopher1234 5y ago
        no, this is probabilistic logic based on my experience

cerradokids 5y ago

Because I love what I do.

giantg2 5y ago

I'm not successful and I don't work 70hr weeks. I had worked about that much for a while (40-50 at IT job + 16-20 at Lowes), and I still wasn't successful.

banku_brougham 5y ago

Burnt out and going to quit soon. Taking a year+ off to try and remember what I used to enjoy.

thisismeme 5y ago

In Germany, the state will punish you if you work more than 32 hours per week by very high taxes. Germany has the highest average tax level for single persons (don't confuse with highest possible tax): https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TABLE_I6 https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=TABLE_I6

hayd 5y ago
Is this to say, you're taxed a higher rate if you work 36 hours compared to someone who is earning more than you but only for 32 hours? That... seems unfair.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  That's why the "Silicaon Valley of Germany" is full of American multinationals and companies that went out of business.

phendrenad2 5y ago

I enjoy the sense of accomplishment that comes from making beautiful things (mostly code) more than I enjoy things like vacations, social situations, etc. That's just me, but I think I'm not necessarily in the minority on "Hacker" News.