17 ms·
Missing businesswoman urges ex-husband not to publish book critical of China
- therealjumbo 5y agoReported by the same NPR that published this: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/on-the-media-constitutionally-speaking https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/on-the-med... https://taibbi.substack.com/p/npr-trashes-free-speech-a-brief-response https://taibbi.substack.com/p/npr-trashes-free-speech-a-brie... Unfortunately they aren't exactly a proponent of free speech themselves.
- belltaco 5y agoClassic strawman, atleast the second link. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28426181 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28426181
- jessaustin 5y agoI don't see the strings "Taibbi" or "strawman" at that link? That's just some sort of "blog-on-HN" post by you? How is it relevant?
- belltaco 5y agoBecause Tabibi is intentionally confusing #1 and #2 in the examples in that link. Fake news isn't a marketplace of ideas, it's the opposite. NPR is calling for roadblocks on fake news and misinformation. Many intellectual people who should better seem to intentionally promote the right to spread fake news and facts as something good for society because it is primarily helping their side politically. Whereas free speech is being able to speak your mind freely. We already have some limited laws restricting free speech like in cases of fraud and libel. Why shouldn't they be extended to news sources making up bullshit that never happened like NPR was suggesting?
- jessaustin 5y agoTaibbi didn't cite any specific examples, so it's unclear how any examples could have been confused. He just wrote that a particular discussion program should have featured a wider range of opinions. How are we to differentiate speaking one's mind freely from spreading misinformation? No human possesses perfect information.
- belltaco 5y agoSpreading third party misinformation is different from creating said misinformation. You could ask them where they got the misinformation and go up the chain till you find who knowingly made it up and don't have someone else to blame.
- jessaustin 5y agoWhose speech are you going to outlaw: the creator or the repeater? Who decides what is "misinformation"?
- belltaco 5y agoAgain, you're using the term 'speech' to describe fake news, to frame the discussion. Why is that term not used when people commit fraud or scams? Also the word 'outlaw'. What if tech companies don't amplify the fake news of both creators and repeaters? As far as the law is concerned a narrow and carefully crafted law can written, a repeater does not get in trouble unless it can be proven without a doubt that they knew it was fake news yet chose to spread it. As far as who decides it(in the legal system), we already have a system that works fairly decently, the court system. Maybe just civil sanctions, like a $500 fine. The accused will have a chance to explain to the court and the public their rationale behind what they wrote/said. We already have libel and other laws that restrict free speech. E.g https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_advertising#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_advertising#United_State... This law wouldn't affect opinions in the slightest. Saying "x gender should stay home", "y race people are terrible" would still not violate law. Again, this is something that I just threw together, I am sure there are many smarter people than me who can refine it so we can protect true free speech while restricting fake news.
- google234123 5y agoCan’t wait for the comment thread here about how the US gov is actually worse than the CCP
- Yaa101 5y agoNot worse, just as bad in a different way, it has nothing to do with geography. It is just that absolute power corrupts absolutely, regardless of the players of this power game.
- dgfitz 5y ago“The current US system of governing is shit, it’s just the best we’ve found so far.” - Poorly paraphrased quote by not-me While I agree with the sentiment, I also acknowledge others disagree and my no means do I wish to argue about it. Friendly conversation, sure. =)
- chroem- 5y agoI won't be executed in the US for doing the wrong kind of yoga. Also, as an aside, I wonder if 1930s HN would have guidelines against "nationalistic flamewars" vs. nazi Germany.
- DenisM 5y agoThoughtful criticism is welcome on HN, breathless fulminations are not. There are other venues for the latter.
- zzzbra 5y ago“breathless fulminations” — this is such a a great expression, thank you!
- howaboutnope 5y ago> Can’t wait for the comment thread here about how the US gov is actually worse than the CCP > Not worse, just as bad in a different way, it has nothing to do with geography. It is just that absolute power corrupts absolutely, regardless of the players of this power game. How are either of these "breathless fulminations"? Or this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28439648 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28439648 ? To give this as the reason is just reading from the teleprompter without even looking at what's in front of you. Meanwhile, rants about programming paradigms or coworkers, big companies, all of those and more can be rather colorful, it's mostly when stepping on the boots things get painted as rabid rants at the drop of a hat. Yet, what intellectual who is more than a vulgar stooge of power doesn't have a violent and uncompromising antipathy against those who would murder people for expressing the wrong opinion, or even simply for acknowledging historical facts? edit: I love how this was downvoted within a minute. > If you wish to be useful, never take a course that will silence you. Refuse to learn anything that implies collusion, whether it be a clerkship or a curacy, a legal fee or a post in a university. Retain the power of speech no matter what other power you may lose. If you can take this course, and in so far as you take it, you will bless this country. In so far as you depart from this course, you become dampers, mutes, and hooded executioners. -- John J. Chapman
- nikkinana 5y agoThe us is worse than the ccp.
- justicezyx 5y agoCorrupted official get into jail... But her conspirator blamed on Communist party... Well, I don't pity them the slightest...
- gruez 5y agowhere "corrupted" in this case could mean "taking bribes for personal gain", "losing favor with the party", or both.
- justicezyx 5y agoI don't know, CCP is full of these types of skunks... Won't be surprised if both or many more crimes.
- gruez 5y agoThe problem is that china's justice system is a farce. Even if the charges were real, you don't know how much of it gets a blind eye (as long as you're in favor with the party) and whether the accused was being singled out for political reasons. Is it typical for people to be charged with corruption, imprisoned, but not acknowledged by the government? How would you like it if something like this happened in the US? eg. AOC (or the republican equivalent) getting sent to ADX Florence because she accepted an unauthorized gift of $60 (according to google the limit is $50), but it turned out that Pelosi/McConnell regularly received gifts of $100+ without any punishment?
- whatshisface 5y agoMarijuana's status as illegal federally but "legal" in states is setting some interesting groundwork for the same kind of thing to happen in the US.
- justicezyx 5y agoYou really think the 100 gifts are hurting AOC? That's but just a show. Look at the net worth of Pelosi family during her tenure. No one is going to be hurt by this ridiculous rule. It's just a show piece to hide the corruption happening in the political system. The difference is just that, in China, it's much easier to actually throw corrupted politicians into jail, but mostly impossible in US.
- 8eye 5y agowhat an evil government, instead of the officials “manning up” and admitting that they aren’t perfect, they sweep their dirty laundry under the bed in fear of being found out. not an example of the machoism they are now trying to push in chinese box offices. hearing about this corruption turns my stomach
- djklanac 5y agoThis comment assumes there is something redeemable about an autocratic, oppressive government with numerous human rights violations under their belt. “Manning up” is slang for doing the right thing. At what point in time has the CCP exhibited this behavior?
- dr_dshiv 5y agoOh stop.
- dylan604 5y ago> now trying to push in chinese box offices It's not just Chinese box offices. There is a lot of investment money coming from China to produce Hollywood films. As part of that investment, the scripts are definitely under a lot of scrutiny for how things are portrayed. Keep that in consideration the next time you see the distribution logos at the beginning of the film you're watching.
- wincy 5y agoI just watched Shang-Chi the new Marvel superhero movie and couldn’t shake the feeling that there’s a distinct current in the film of “come back to China all those who were part of the diaspora, we will accept you, you belong with us. You are part of our family”.
- dragonelite 5y agoDon't need a movie for that, the economics and the dynamic Chinese market is what will slowly but surely suck up Asia's talent. Just like the US could do in the 20th century with European/Anglo talent.
- exo-pla-net 5y agoStrange that the CCP didn't realize that this stunt would only Streisand Effect his book. And of course utterly evil they'd try to manipulate him by using his ex-wife they'd disappeared. If the CCP wanted to give themselves the worst look possible, they succeeded.
- sio8ohPi 5y agoIt's the difference between iterated and one-time games. Shum has a decision to Publish or Not Publish (P or NP). CCP has the decision to Retaliate or Not Retaliate (R or NR). In a one-time game, Shun chooses P and CCP chooses NR, because P/NR > P/R for CCP. A one-time game may be a good model if there's only one thing you wish to keep out of the public eye (e.g. photos of Barbara Streisand's house). But CCP will play this game many times: establishing that they're able and willing to harm their critics, even at cost to themselves, has value. It encourages future critics to never publish in the first place.
- silexia 5y agoWhich is exactly why everyone must oppose dictatorships with maximum possible force.
- drekipus 5y agoCommunism is in with the kids nowadays, and society is largely not unified in anything, so I think this is going to be here to stay.
- loonster 5y agoAllowing our kids to be taught by communist was not such a bright idea.
- Haga 5y agoSuch unruly youth not to respect the king from God's grace and the shareholder nobility,god bless them. Moonism it is, I tell you. Feudalism is the natural order. Capitalism only ever played nice at socialist gunpoint, how dare this youth wanting that part of the past back.
- sluggosaurus 5y agoThis seems like a plausible claim, it all lines up with my preconceived expectations for how the CCP operates, but who knows? There are plausible commercial and political incentives for him to make these claims up (to promote his book, or to hurt a government he dislikes.) I hope NPR was able to corroborate these claims (Desmond Shum might have provided them with a recording of the calls?), because there is nothing in this article anybody else would be able to corroborate.
- echelon 5y agoIf I were to spend $100M on producing HBO's Chernobyl, except focused on Tiananmen (assume top talent, compelling story, and good marketing), what sort of blowback could I expect? Would my life be in danger? Would other businesses cut me off? Will this become increasingly difficult to pull off in the US/West? We know Disney and other entertainment companies don't want to touch it. Will that attitude stay the same now that China is beginning to cut off Western movie stars, movies, market access, etc.?
- mc32 5y agoIf you could bankroll it yourself, nothing would stop you --you might have some problem getting big names to sign up. I don't think the CCP would be so petty to come after you abroad for something like this. Big entertainment would not touch it, if they have business in China. So you might be able to get indie houses to play it along with independent domestic distributors. And, oh, don't travel to China after that.
- DenisM 5y agoI wonder if YouTube would let it be or pull it with some twisted excuse? That's a lot of audience.
- adventured 5y agoI think they'd allow it. You can watch Death by China on YouTube, the film production of the book by Peter Navarro, which was narrated by Martin Sheen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMlmjXtnIXI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMlmjXtnIXI
- gruez 5y agoDoes youtube even care? Aren't there a lot of anti-china documentaries/videos on youtube? Or do you think that those flew under the radar because they're not popular enough?
- comrh 5y ago
- Errik 5y agoa few other options : - perfect publicity for the new book about to be published - the wife isn't as innocent but part of the system - the couple isn't that innocent but was part of a corrupted system Can't tell wich one is correct, including the original version
- rtpg 5y agoRight, there's a strong line among all the really publically disappeared people which is that they are all pretty likely to be deeply linked into the entire corrupt machinations of the system. Like with Zhao Wei. You think you get to be a billionaire from just being a good actor? But even the worst kind of people deserve due process and like... some notion of rule of law. I think conflating "this person is being treated inhumanely" and "this person is a good person" are often conflated though, making it too easy to derail conversations about these kinds of cases. I don't know much about this person's case. It could be that there's legitimate reasons for this person's wife to be in jail. But this sort of bargaining of a person's freedom for this kind of thing is really nasty. It's not something unique to China (there are lots of nasty US plea deals that involve essentially trading your freedom for someone else's), but honestly pretty unique when it comes to people that are clearly extremely wealthy.
- powerapple 5y agoIt will be very interesting if it turns out to be a stunt by the author and publisher. Xi won't care about the publishing of a book of a former vice president, actually, the publish of the book is probably good for him. My speculations anyway. I would love to read the book
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- bookpub 5y agoReading through that, this appears more like a publicity stunt pulled out by the book's author. Who has verified those phone calls?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- Hnrobert42 5y agoI came to post the same thing. I regularly donate to NPR, but shame on them for not seeking to corroborate his story. They could try to reach the father or ask to see the phone company’s billing record of the call. They could at least preface the story with a caution.
- rkk3 5y agoPresumably the journalists at NPR did before they published this story... It's not like this was self-published on a blog
- gotflagged 5y agoYeah right! The author of this book received a call in the past 24 hours (as stated in there - "Now, obviously, you know, looking at the development in the last 24 hours, I can understand why."), book publication is tomorrow. So yeah, NPR put all their efforts to verify this story at such a short notice. People have faked their own assaults (remember Jussie Smollet) and news agencies have gone ahead and published that as a truth without verification and people think NPR will verify a story about someone getting a phone call.
- rnd0 5y ago>Presumably the journalists at NPR did before they published this story... In this day and age that's a pretty brave presumption. I wouldn't assume anything of the sort!
- Hnrobert42 5y agoUsually they would explain what they did to corroborate the story. This had none of that. I trust NPR specifically because they usually are transparent about their methods or disclose when they couldn’t meet their usually reporting standards.
- cperciva 5y agoIn case anyone wants to buy a copy: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1982156155 https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1982156155
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- elevenoh 5y agoYep. Thank you.
- capableweb 5y agoOr you can buy it straight from Simon & Schuster (the publisher), slightly more expensive but you can sleep well knowing you don't support more egoistic space travels: https://store.simonandschuster.com/on/demandware.store/Sites-simonandschusterus-Site/default/Cart-AddProduct?pid=9781982156152&couponCode=#shopping_cart https://store.simonandschuster.com/on/demandware.store/Sites...
- divbzero 5y agoOr to support local bookstores while buying: https://bookshop.org/books/red-roulette-an-insider-s-story-of-wealth-power-corruption-and-vengeance-in-today-s-china-9781797132655/9781982156152 https://bookshop.org/books/red-roulette-an-insider-s-story-o...
- SllX 5y agoThanks!
- mensetmanusman 5y agoCCP is sometimes hilariously bad at international PR. This is like a satire scene out of Team America.
- rpmisms 5y agoMatt and Trey have a Simpsons-esque knack for capturing the tone of the future.
- fomine3 5y agoCCP embassy's twitter is joke. I wonder is they think propaganda is succeeding.
- sonicggg 5y agoI think sometimes the importance of propaganda is overstated. Those guys are around 70 years in power now, and have shut down every attempt ate rebellion so far, so they must be doing something right. Yeah, their international image is not the most stellar one. But what will people do about it, besides bitching online?
- Ekaros 5y agoNone of the big power players or even medium power players have exactly stellar image. So does image even matter if you can get away with things anyway... Terrorism by state actor is default policy and nothing is being done about it... So why should China act any different?
- rcpt 5y agoBut TikTok isn't a joke. I'm more than a little concerned by it
- Clewza313 5y agoCCP is hilariously bad at PR, period. Their idea of pacifying unrest in Tibet is to put up a giant middle finger facing the Potala Palace and surround it with posters of Mao and Xi. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_to_the_Peaceful_Liberation_of_Tibet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_to_the_Peaceful_Liber...
- vmception 5y agoIs that ominous saying really common in China?
- Clewza313 5y agoChinese has tens of thousands of chengyu (pithy four-character sayings), it's hard to tell which one she used but maybe this: http://blog.tutorming.com/mandarin-chinese-learning-tips/chengyu-zhi-nan-er-tui-meaning-idiom http://blog.tutorming.com/mandarin-chinese-learning-tips/che...
- etherwaste 5y agoA political system which operates above and oppresses the bourgeois class? Based!
- 88913527 5y agoWhat sort of consequences is the CCP anticipating as a result of the book's publication? If they expected none, they wouldn't have made the point of having Shum's ex-wife contact him. Assuming this book is targeting a US market, and most Americans are neutral or negative in their views of China, I don't see the needle moving much. And beyond trade deals, how can we influence them? We may not agree with their policies, we trade with them, we allow anyone here to write publicly about China, and life goes on as usual.
- CaptainZapp 5y agoIt may be more about sending a message to other potential critics. Nice family you have here. Would be a shame if something happens to it!
- b3nji 5y agoWhat a clever book marketing campaign. I'm sure loads of people will be preordering off the back of this interview.
- aristofun 5y agoWhat else do you expect from new soviet union? Sometimes people’s naiveness wonders me.
- elevenoh 5y agoBut they're protecting us! We'd fall apart without authoritarianism! /s Analogous to authoritarian covid protocols.
- seanicus 5y agoThere's like 30 ongoing threads right now about COVID. But yes, someone getting sent to indefinite detention by the state is the same as someone asking you to mask up at the Arby's.
- laserbeam 5y agoRight. Has anyone here done a reasonable background check on the author, Desmond Shum, to verify this is not just a PR stunt? It is perfectly plausible that everything in the article is true... But if the kidnapping isn't real then I wouldn't trust the book either. After a quick search I've only found some of the author's history in finance and which suggests he has the background to write this book. If the kidnapping is indeed real, then the book becomes an interesting read indeed.
- laserbeam 5y agoWell, the disappearance seems legit... https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/07/world/asia/china-whitney-duan-weihong.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/07/world/asia/china-whitney-...
- gorgoiler 5y agoIt’s NPR.
- laserbeam 5y agoI am not from a country who has npr, and i know little about its reputation. It looks like an article which could be mistaken as a pr stunt.
- CyanBird 5y agoWeren't they in favor of the Iraq war? This is a legitimate question, I don't know about their reporting from back then And from an external perspective, why would they be a more reliable source than let's say Voice Of America or Radio Free Asia, both of which ofc are "offensive" (as in vanguard/aggressive/warfaring) media outlets
- mrtranscendence 5y agoI don't recall what kind of coverage NPR had over the Iraq war; maybe it was generally favorable. But it would surprise me if the station were "in favor of" it full stop. It's certainly possible to find critical pieces from the era by googling. > why would they be a more reliable source than let's say Voice Of America or Radio Free Asia Voice of America and Radio Free Asia are governmental agencies; NPR is a private non-profit organization funded by advertising, donations, grants, etc (but not directly by the federal government).
- winrid 5y agoWhy wouldn't they just ban the book? I seems like they don't need to go through all of this. I'm sure there's plenty of books already banned.
- pwdisswordfish8 5y agoNon-cookiewalled: https://text.npr.org/1034556269 https://text.npr.org/1034556269
- bryanrasmussen 5y agomaybe one could write a book saying how wonderful China is; here are all the messages from missing people to confirm it.
- bob229 5y agoChina is the new evil empire
- pvaldes 5y agoThe entire history is very suspicious. She seems to have a few secrets that would need to explain. I wonder for example, how do they know that the woman that is talking by phone is really his spouse and not another woman pretending to be her? We have old actors making films in young roles again. To modify the pitch of a telephonic voice with a computer is standard and well developed technology. Specially when everybody is uploading their videos to internet and they have a wide sample to feed the software. Hiding people for 4 years is hard. Disappearing if the government wants to find you in a world of cameras deployed and global watching is even harder. They could just put her in jail without taking so many troubles. Moreover, would be the best option. A trial in a stranger country is very expensive. Involves a lot of people hiring lawyers, going to hotels for months to be close to his familiar, and spending tons of money in the area until the trial ends. Why the government would renounce to all this fresh money? As long as they had a minimum case, just to trow her in jail and shut the mouth would be stupid when they can milk the family for a long time instead.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- Wolfenstein98k 5y agoThat government is never to be trusted.
- pixxel 5y agoGovernment is never to be trusted.
- cutemonster 5y agoSome governments in small countries can sometimes be trusted, but not in larger countries
- bawana 5y agoI dont know what to believe anymore. Is this author using his ex to publicize his book? Is this woman even alive? Second hand info is suspect. If the wife were alive, she would have messaged him publicly,no?
- chkaloon 5y agoAnd, is he sure it was his wife on the phone?
- ajflores1604 5y agoWonder what the chances are that her voice was deep faked. I don't want to get all conspiracy theory and say it probably was. But considering who's involved, the chances are definitely non-zero. Feel like this is obvious neferious use case for the tech. Impersonate loved ones to manipulate.
- dang 5y agoEdit: I got this wrong. Very sorry! Original comment below. All the principles are correct but I applied them in the wrong order. The article's title is misleading in the way gojomo points out below, so the title rewrite was good. ---- The submitted title is heavily editorialized, breaking the site guidelines badly. We take submission privileges away from accounts that do that, so please don't do that. "Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Cherry-picking a detail, especially a sensational detail, and making that the title is the main way that people break this guideline. If you want to say what you think is important about an article, that's great, but do so by adding a comment to the thread. Then your view will be on a level playing field with everyone else's: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22level%20playing%20field%22%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... Threads are sensitive to initial conditions and titles are the mother of all initial conditions, so this is a big deal. Normally we'd change the title, but since the thread has been entirely determined by the editorialized title, I don't think it makes sense to do that in this case. Edit: yikes, this is the third title in a row that you editorialized. I don't want to take submission privileges away from you! so please don't keep doing that!
- gojomo 5y agoThe title obviously varies from the source, & I have no opinion on any prior cases of editorialized titles from the submitter. But, on this story itself, the submitted title is more honestly representative of the article contents than NPR's own title. The current HN title is: "Missing businesswoman urges ex-husband not to publish book critical of China" The NPR title is: "'Red Roulette' Reveals The Inside Of China's Wealth-Making Machine" Notably, the interview is entirely about the details of the strange & sinister calls the author received. There is only a vaguest blurb of the book's topic in the interviewer's intro/outro. There are no questions or answers about the larger topic of "China's Wealth-Making Machine" or specific material in the book. It's all recounting the circumstances of the surprise calls, happening after the book's contents were written. This article is truly well-described by "Missing businesswoman urges ex-husband not to publish book critical of China", instead of NPR's anodyne title – except insofar as the author's whole recounting of the calls is clearly part of the book's pre-launch PR. (In fact, the contrast between the interview contents & NPR title is so large it raises at least 2 more questions: • Did the author make up these calls as PR? • Did NPR itself feel pressured to 'hide the lede', genericizing their title, either because of their own doubts about the story credibility, or geopolitical concerns about angering the CCP?)
- kweik 5y agoIt feels like a PR move before book publishing. I don't see any reason to trust CCP and also "former private-equity executive"