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Rugby: Head impact study shows cognitive decline after just one season

276 points by iechoz6H 5y ago

ben-gy 5y ago
I’ve been following concussions in sports for while as part of a company I’m launching soon (https://ocula.ai https://ocula.ai) - it’s seriously scary stuff now that longer term, validated studies are beginning to be published - it’s worth noting NFL powered through its allocated funds for concussion payouts of $0.5B almost a decade ahead of schedule (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/10056496 https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/10056...) and there’s many more on the way…
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  What’s the end game for American football when, inherently, everyone ends up with brain damage? I assume the NFL will end up bankrupt from civil claims?
  - fallingknife 5y ago
    Why can't they just add "this causes brain damage and we are not liable" to their contract?
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      The most American of answers.
      - quantumBerry 5y ago
        Person A consents voluntarily to Person B to take large sum of money in exchange for concussion/negative health effects on their own body (which I presume we agree they own their own body including the ability to risk it). What business is it to anyone else, least of all the government?
        alistairSH 5y ago
        You're only thinking about the NFL. High school and youth players are neither paid nor are they old enough to consent. Collegiate players are old enough to consent, but aren't paid (excluding tuition/room/board). Regardless of the sums of money, do we as a society, really want to allow people to allow themselves to become brain damaged in exchange for money? If not, we need to decide where we draw the line.
        quantumBerry 5y ago
        Yes, we really should allow people who consent to risk becoming brain damaged to do it in exchange for money. We already allow people to do it for free, like allowing people to ride dirt bikes. >You're only thinking about the NFL. The article was literally about professional rugby players. Yes I realize most of those guys are not making millions. >High school and youth players are neither paid nor are they old enough to consent. Which is why I said those who consent, who are you arguing against? My statement was "Person A consents." If you believe a minor cannot consent then by definition we haven't spoken about high school and youth. As an aside, do you believe all sex amongst 17 year olds is rape as well, since you are not attributing them the ability to consent?
        0134340 5y ago
        It becomes the government's and everyone else's business because who's going to look after you if you get disabled and can't work? You'll then have to proceed to beg, steal or live on government benefits and then you become everyone else's problem. As long as we live in a society we are our brother's keeper whether we like it or not. The only escape is to move away from society so you have no interaction with it so then you can't complain about society interacting with you. Which in today's world is impossible as society will still at least affect your natural environment, unfortunately.
        quantumBerry 5y ago
        If you don't like the fact that the disabled may have to be looked out for on your dime or taxpayer's dime, that sounds more like an argument for government not "looking out" for someone who voluntarily risked their body. Being your brother's keeper doesn't mean getting an IRS agent and some agent with a gun to force someone who didn't consent to someone else playing football/rugby to pay for their injury. Being brother's keeper doesn't mean removing consent. I think what you should really be arguing for is the rugby association to properly compensate anyone with medical disability as a result of their employment.
    - _jal 5y ago
      Aside from being appalling, this would also serve as an admission.
    - syops 5y ago
      In a properly functioning society the government tends to look out for the best interests of its citizens. People are local optimization machines and they tend to make bad long term decisions. In order to prevent exploitation of labor it is necessary for government to intervene from time to time. It's why we don't let mining companies say to the prospective employees: "This is dangerous and we aren't liable." Instead we require mining companies to take prudent steps to ensure the safety of workers. People desperate for a paycheck often times will do things they ordinarily wouldn't.
      - thinkharderdev 5y ago
        In general that is true, but I don't think NFL players fall into the category of "desperate for a paycheck." That said, the vast majority of football players never make a dime and if the NFL DOES go bankrupt it will because the pipeline of players dries up because many fewer people want to play at the HS/College level given the obvious health risks and very low adds of becoming a successful professional.
        1270018080 5y ago
        NFL players are absolutely desperate for a paycheck. For many, it's their way out of poverty. They have to go through 8+ years of brain damage for their only chance of not ending up poor like everyone else in their family. And the avg tenure in the NFL is only 3 years.
    - mustacheemperor 5y ago
      Professional football relies on the infrastructure of child/school football producing new players, so there’s going to be a trickle down effect from whatever happens with the NFL. Even if over 18 year olds signing contracts can waive their liability, high schoolers can’t. And mounting scientific evidence about the risk of concussions is going to cause it’s own liability issues for the schools hosting the sports. Anecdotally, I remember a couple of my high school classmates seemed perceptibly affected by their repeated concussions in varsity football, and would discuss at the lunch table how to throw the “impact” test at the start of the year so they would still be allowed to play after a serious hit. The test compared your score after injury to your score at the start of the year, so theoretically if you do badly enough on round 1 you can still pass with a “mild” concussion.
      - quantumBerry 5y ago
        Professional software development relies on the infrastructure of childhood STEM producing new scientists, so there’s going to be a trickle down effect from whatever happens with the startup sector. Even if over 18 year olds signing contracts can waive their liability, high schoolers can’t. And mounting scientific evidence about the risk of pressure to succeed in the sciences is going to cause it’s own liability issues for the schools hosting the subjects, such as the many suicides of engineering students who are overwhelmed with pressure to succeed. Anecdotally, more than 1 engineering student has killed themself, affected by their repeated challenges in engineering school, and has discussed their challenges at the lunch table about how to throw back a "drink" at the start of the night so they could still allow themselves to continue after a serious reprimand by their PI. -------------- NFL primarily sources from collegiate football, not high school. In fact, there is a strict rule a player must be 3 year out of high school before being drafted. If you have a problem with the way collegiate football recruits children, perhaps it is best to start there.
  - kasey_junk 5y ago
    Early on in American footballs life there was a problem with excessive deaths. The President stepped in and effectively demanded rule changes to make the sport less deadly. I doubt that will happen again but you can imagine a similar set of rule changes to help with brain health. I suspect the NFL will need to drive that as I don’t see a Teddy Roosevelt line public figure these days.
    - ProjectArcturis 5y ago
      What rule changes can you make to football to eliminate head hits, without making the game unrecognizable? I think if that were a possible solution, they would have done it already. As is they're just tinkering on the margins with things like kickoff rules (encouraging more touchbacks to eliminate contact on one of the most dangerous plays of the game).
      - LgWoodenBadger 5y ago
        Targeting (leading with the crown of the helmet) is a penalty that can get a college player ejected from the game, and if in the second half will carry over to the first half of the next game. A blow to the QBs head is a 15 yard penalty and automatic 1st down. Spearing is a personal foul, 15 yard penalty, automatic 1st down IIRC. I'm sure there are others...
        Goronmon 5y ago
        I think that would fall under "tinkering on the margins" as the person you replied to phrased it. An example of a more systemic change would be elimination of any head-to-head impacts that might occur between defense and offensive linemen on any given play. How do you work to eliminate those without changing the game into something unrecognizable?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - toast0 5y ago
  - adventured 5y ago
    > What’s the end game for American football when, inherently, everyone ends up with brain damage? Everyone doesn't end up with brain damage. Most NFL players only play for a few seasons. The average career is only three seasons; the median is even lower. An exceptionally small number of players are going to suffer brain damage in two or three seasons. Today's NFL players are paid far beyond extraordinarily well, they don't need the money. The bulk of the claims are coming from players in the past that were not paid so well and do need the money. Guys that used to play for $100,000 /yr across a ten year career, and played at a time when the NFL was far more violent and head protection was even worse. A player that lasts 10-15 years in the NFL today will typically earn $100 million or more. They'll have a lot of money and some will have lasting brain damage. A very small fraction of those players will ever consider suing the NFL. > I assume the NFL will end up bankrupt from civil claims? That's an incorrect assumption. The legal cost will barely be a drop in the bucket of the NFL's financial machinery. Someone else mentioned the $500m concussion fund was burned through sooner than expected. $50m-$100m per year is an easy problem for the NFL these days. The commissioner gets paid $40 million per year. League revenue was $16 billion in 2019. One team, the Dallas Cowboys, alone has $280 million in operating income. If you cycle out ten more years, the NFL could afford $500 million every single year in liability costs related to head injuries, and it would still be fine (and that number isn't going to happen).
    - watwut 5y ago
      Most players don't ever get to high league. They play in schools, colleges and clubs. They don't earn money and they do suffer injuries all the time.
    - alistairSH 5y ago
      Most NFL players only play for a few seasons. A large portion of collegiate players will end up with CTE. Enough high school players end up with CTE that we should be concerned. https://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2017/evidence-of-cte-found-in-brains-of-deceased-football-players/ https://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2017/evidence-of-cte-fo...
      - microtherion 5y ago
  - astura 5y ago
    Probably not, the death rate for former WWE wrestlers is absolutely astounding and they haven't been sued out of existence. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-pro-wrestlers-dying-at-an-unusual-rate/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-pro-wrestlers-dying... https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/comparing-the-wwfs-death-rate-to-the-nfls-and-other-pro-leagues/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/comparing-the-wwfs-deat... https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33817959 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33817959
- ProjectArcturis 5y ago
  You're probably aware of this, but this study and many others indicate that repeated sub-concussive hits can be just as dangerous to the brain. Indeed, some would argue that the NFL's focus on concussions is a way of looking like they're doing something while ignoring the fact that there is no way to play NFL football without causing brain damage.
  - ben-gy 5y ago
    Yep - 100% correct - brain scans can identify early signs of CTE processing after a single season for a soccer player in a defensive or offensive position that heads the ball regularly.
elijaht 5y ago
I played rugby and actively follow it and football but it's harder and harder to grapple with the long term consequences of these sports as more information about damage especially from sub-concussion level impacts comes out. It's hard to imagine but I think the NFL will have a serious reckoning over the next 10-20 years unless they can fix this somehow
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  Can they change the rules to any reasonable degree to mitigate the risk? Other codes, like Association, are far lower contact than the Rugby or American rules.
  - jabl 5y ago
    IIRC there are results around brain damage in association football as well, mostly due to players heading the ball. Guess nobody has dared suggest prohibiting head playing in association football. Would be interesting to see how the game would change if such a rule would be enacted.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      > Guess nobody has dared suggest prohibiting head playing in association football. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jul/28/major-heading-restrictions-agreed-for-english-football-at-all-levels-from-this-season https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jul/28/major-headi...
    - kitd 5y ago
      There are guidelines around heading at junior level: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51614088 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51614088 But it's one thing to not practise it, and another to actually ban it. I can see the latter in <5 years at all levels if the current research is followed up correctly.
    - tzs 5y ago
      I can see three ways to get rid of heading. 1. Just ban it, with the same penalties as using your hands. I used to think that this was the way to go, but I rarely watched soccer. I still don't understand soccer but over the last week I've watched a fair bit [1] and see now that simply removing headers without replacing them would alter the game too much. 2. Have the players wear something like a tennis racquet but with a longer handle attached to their back with the head of it extending above the player's head. Players can hit the ball with this instead of the head. Hitting with their head is treated like using their hands as in #1. This is one of those things that would probably be seen as fine if and only if it has been done that way for a long time. Otherwise, it is too ridiculous to seriously propose. 3. Players can deflect the ball with the part of their arm between the elbow and the wrist, but only if the elbow is above the ears. "Above" is defined relative to the player's orientation, not relative to the ground. This seems like it could be a close enough replacement for heading to not alter things too much. [1] I have a "free" (it is really a rental with $0/month rent) streaming box from my ISP that includes a free Peacock Premium subscription. The ISP noticed I rarely use it and asked me to return it if I'm not going to use it more. Everything I'm interested in on it I can get on my Fire TV or on my smart TV, including Peacock. But I'm not sure if the free Peacock Premium would continue, so instead I'm trying to use the "free" box more. One way I've done that is when I'm relaxing on the couch and not otherwise using the TV I've streamed replays and highlights from soccer, both to keep up usage on the box and to see if by watching enough soccer I'll eventually start to see that it only looks largely random and there really is a lot of skill and strategy and tactics involved.
rory 5y ago
I played rugby for years and had a constant, mild headache the entire time. Went abroad for five months so I took a break, and I couldn't believe how good I felt. I had forgotten what it felt like for my brain not to hurt. Needless to say, I never played again.
- unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
  The study covered one season and did not cover long term impacts. It's entirely possible that, like the parent comment, the whole team finished the season, tested poorly on cognitive performance, took a few months break and were then back close to baseline. The comments about long-term impact are generally not about one season of ordinary contact in any sport.
  - blunte 5y ago
    How many times of being hit in the head is ok? Obviously one wrong hit in the head can lead to death. Is there any acceptable level of being hit in the head? Why this is even a debate is boggling to me.
    - rory 5y ago
      I actually don't think it was primarily caused by hits to the head. Every collision (including tackles and scrums) "rattles" the head in a way that causes pain, and presumably damage, over time.
      - blunte 5y ago
        Ok, forgive me for being imprecise in my language :). Any willful activity that harms the brain should be considered carefully before undertaking. This would include drinking alcohol as well (something which many of us willfully choose).
    - unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
      One wrong step, sneeze, or meal can lead to death. People compete in sport not to get hit in the head, but for other benefits which are legion, just as people become sedentary doing desk jobs not in hopes of suffering ill health from doing no physical activity, but again because their focus is elsewhere.
pixelbreaker 5y ago
I played rugby at school and I'm f-f-f-fine.
joelbluminator 5y ago
I used Ruby for years without apparent decline
- robmccoll 5y ago
  I also read it "Ruby" and then laughed at myself.
- pawelduda 5y ago
  I developed GIL. Don't do Ruby.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dr-detroit 5y ago
Pro cyclists sometimes die from crashes where do you draw the line in sport safety?
- jtbayly 5y ago
  Great question. It's not easy to answer where to draw the line with risks. One difference is that a bicycle accident is an accident, whereas contact sports it is part of the game to hit each other. So it's less a question of whether a rare event might happen to you, and more a question of what is this common event doing to me?
- unclekev 5y ago
  > Pro cyclists sometimes die from crashes The difference here being the cyclists are not purposely driving their bikes into cars/objects vs being rugby being an actual 'contact sport'
  - thinkharderdev 5y ago
    I'm not so sure about that. Obviously pro cyclists aren't purposely crashing but the nature of the sport is to put yourself in extremely dangerous situations on a regular basis. Descending at 60+ mph on narrow, wet roads. Sprints where they are riding in excess of 35ph in VERY close quarters with other riders, etc. Not to mention the long term health consequences of maintaining an extremely low body fat percentage for long periods of time. The parent is being downvoted for a "what about X?" response but I think it is actually a legitimate question to ask. Almost every elite sport carries with it serious health and safety risks. But to counter their concern I would argue that elite sports almost always carry health risks, may amateur sports do not and are broadly beneficial. Contact sports such as American Football, Rugby, etc however are in a different class where the amateur athletes are also putting themselves at significant risk.
- unethical_ban 5y ago
  Somewhere between "this is a threat to every participant in the sport and most of them actively deny the threat while recruiting children to play" and "it happens upon occasion".
notjustanymike 5y ago
Watching or playing?
- nayuki 5y ago
  You can get head impact from watching?
catchmilk 5y ago
It's interesting to see that this issue is rather controversial within the Rugby/NFL world, whereas other sports it's almost a given? Boxing, for example, has pretty damaging long-term side-effects with notable legends dying prematurely. But nobody is really making Hollywood movies about it (like Concussions starring Will Smith). I wonder whether Rugby/NFL is just headed towards the direction of these sort of consequences becoming accepted as being 'part of the sport'.
- rapsey 5y ago
  Because boxing is a minor sport in comparison. Way to many billions at stake in football and rugby.
  - dmurray 5y ago
    Boxing is one of the biggest sports in the world. Rugby is pretty niche.
    - phaemon 5y ago
      That's completely wrong I'm afraid. In terms of popularity (number of fans) Rugby is about as popular as American Football, at around 9th most popular sport. The top two are 1. Association Football (aka soccer), 2. Cricket Boxing doesn't make the top 10.
      - pessimizer 5y ago
        The rise of MMA severely damaged the popularity of boxing.
- Retric 5y ago
  Boxing is somewhat popular to watch, but we don’t have high school boxing with large numbers of participants at most schools. I am fine with adults taking such risks with their own bodies knowing the risks, but it’s another thing when public school teams enter the equation. Replacing full contact high school football with say flag football or soccer would be unpopular, but continuing is an ethically dubious proposition.
jackschultz 5y ago
I'm in the US and had sort of a reckoning against out football a few years ago after a medical incident of mine. I used to be a big watcher of the NFL, mostly because my team was really good, but suddenly I had trouble watching week after week guys getting drilled in the head and being carted off to have their career ends. These league average numbers [1] are horrible to think about, with how little tie running backs play when they're able to make money (screw the NCAA) and they get hit every play. One of the arguments on a change that could help is a big transition back to old school leather helmets, or no helmets. There's been much talk about safety of rugby compared to football, especially from armchair thinkers [2]. Some of the answers in that Quora thread are agreeing with the result of this article, where rugby isn't exactly that much safer regardless of lack of helmet or tackling style. Heck even soccer is having to come to terms with headers causing head injuries later in life [3]. With more "lower" impact sports like rugby (not that much lower, but has been considered lower) and soccer coming out with so much head injury reports, I wonder how long we'll be stuck with popularity of the NFL. Brett Favre, a quarterback from the south, came out and said to not have kids play tackle until they're 14. But when they turn 14? It's not like that risk goes away. I'm lucky for myself that I like watching baseball and basketball the most so I don't have to think deal with watching head injuries that last lifetimes for the players. Or maybe that's why I like watching those two team sports the most. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/240102/average-player-career-length-in-the-national-football-league/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/240102/average-player-ca... [2] https://www.quora.com/Would-the-NFL-or-football-in-general-be-safer-if-there-were-no-pads-or-helmets https://www.quora.com/Would-the-NFL-or-football-in-general-b... [3] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/02/01/512848122/with-concussion-risk-in-soccer-headers-may-kick-it-up-a-notch https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/02/01/5128481... [4] https://www.npr.org/2021/08/17/1028547803/brett-favre-kids-football-14-cte https://www.npr.org/2021/08/17/1028547803/brett-favre-kids-f...
- alistairSH 5y ago
  Brett Favre, a quarterback from the south, came out and said to not have kids play tackle until they're 14. But when they turn 14? It's not like that risk goes away. IIRC, his statement was based on CTE studies on the brains of ex-high school (but not ex-college/NFL) players. Of the sample, those with signs of CTE had played youth football as well as high school ball. Only one CTE sample did not play youth ball (and the rest of the high-school-only samples did not have CTE). Gist of it being that playing youth ball through high school puts you at a significantly higher risk of CTE than high school only. But, you are correct that any time spent playing has risks.
eggy 5y ago
I played rugby in high school, and I was surprised at how much you don't hit your head intentionally like you do in American football. You use your shoulders, torso, and arms, or at least that is how we were trained. Sure, you hit your head occasionally, but sometimes in a maul you find yourself clasping your hands behind your head in a maul to guard the ball against the opposition, while your team tries to hook the ball out of your stomach side, while you are laying down in a fetal position on the pitch! I still think American football players maximize power off the line, feel protected by helmets and shoulder pads, and basically create a more powerful jolt when they hit heads instead of shoulder pads. When you're not wearing a helmet, you tend to become better at protecting your head against intentional hits. Then again Garryownens can result in being hit like a freight train if you decide to catch it!
- smcl 5y ago
  For non-rugby types, here's a Garryowen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmdqLiEvYw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmdqLiEvYw4
  - engineer_22 5y ago
    I don't know what I'm looking for, there's several stages of play in that clip, is a garyowen where they collide in midair?
    - maccard 5y ago
      It's the high kick.
    - smcl 5y ago
      edit: just read Jenk's comment :)
    - Jenk 5y ago
      A "Garryowen" is very high, but not that long, kick. It's a kick where the intent is to have your own team catch it. Let's say you are the fullback and you are facing a wall of approaching opposition, charging at you. All of your team are ahead of you, too, so they are of no use. Blocking is illegal. The opposition are not allowed to tackle you if you don't have the ball, so you kick it up high, over their heads, and run past them, catch it, and carry on running. The opposition's inertia will keep them going past the ball (and you) so when you regain the ball, you'll have a clear field ahead of you. That's the dream. The reality is you now have a field of fast, heavy, people running toward the same spot on the field, all looking straight-up at the ball that is now 50ft in the air, unaware they are about to collide in a wind-taking, bone-crunching crash.
marttt 5y ago
Reminds me of John Urschel, MIT mathematician who quit his NFL career because he was afraid of possible brain damage. Looks like he finished his PhD in 2021 [0]. Congrats! Apparently, Urschel had suffered a concussion a few years before his decision [1, 2]. There was also an interesting, semi-related HN thread about football and brain trauma earlier [3]. 0: https://math.mit.edu/~urschel/ https://math.mit.edu/~urschel/ 1: https://archive.is/RG9tg https://archive.is/RG9tg 2: https://news.mit.edu/2019/student-john-urschel-math-football-0515 https://news.mit.edu/2019/student-john-urschel-math-football... 4: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16291827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16291827
- gumby 5y ago
  He put in the time to qualify for a league pension, then quit then quit the NFL. Somehow this overlapped with his time as a masters student (source, iirc, alumni section of technology review).
- antasvara 5y ago
  He's got a solid book [1] with some insight into his decisions. He's an interesting guy- definitely worth a read. [1] https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/557242/mind-and-matter-by-john-urschel-and-louisa-thomas/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/557242/mind-and-mat...
- reedf1 5y ago
  He has written a book as well! Now if he can play an instrument and embroider he'd be my choice for the human general talent gauntlet.
ren_engineer 5y ago
Football and Rugby get a lot of attention but soccer also has major issues with heading the ball for low impact and major head injuries when people accidentally hit heads. In America girl's soccer is actually a close 2nd place finisher to boys football when it comes to diagnosed concussions
unethical_ban 5y ago
I played rugby for a few seasons, and I had several concussions. I never blacked out, but I temporarily lost my ability to speak (several minutes), as well as got emotional. I cried though I wasn't upset, then I would get enraged even though I wasn't mad at anything (except maybe getting a concussion). I'm in my 30s now, and I can't remember things like I used to. I can be thinking of something, and it "just disappears". I feel like my mind behaves like a 65 year old, not a 30-something. I used to have a lot more focus, more dedication to certain things, and it's harder now. I don't know what combination of growing older, drinking, or concussions have caused my issues. And it's hard to say I regret playing, because it was fun and a part of who I am. However, concussions are not a joke, and I wish more players had the sense to step away from the game after getting a small number, rather than thinking "it's normal" and playing for 20-30 years.
- noname_jabroni 5y ago
  This is very close to my experience. I played rugby for 10 years and had multiple concussions (2 that knocked me out). After one concussion I went through a period where I would get emotional and angry, especially when drinking (i.e. have 2 beers, black out, and then black-in crying). I quit drinking about 2 years ago (I'm in my early 30s) and the mental clarity has been incredible. I had a tendency to drink heavily when I drank (about weekly) and so if you're struggling with memory issues I'd suggest giving sobriety a chance for a month or two to see if it makes a difference.
nayuki 5y ago
> players saw a decline in blood flow to the brain and cognitive function - the ability to ... perform mental gymnastics. Avoiding mental gymnastics can't be a bad thing, right?
swader999 5y ago
I wonder if you even have to hit your head, perhaps just a hard tackle to the ground would be enough for a minor concussion.
- favorited 5y ago
  Research of Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy in NFL players suggests that concussions aren't even necessary to cause CTE. The constant subconcussive hits are enough. https://www.bumc.bu.edu/busm/2018/01/18/study-hits-not-concussions-cause-cte/ https://www.bumc.bu.edu/busm/2018/01/18/study-hits-not-concu...
ihaveajob 5y ago
My experience with high school rugby was that head impacts were exceedingly rare. Lots of bruises, though. The showers after a game were loud, with kids screaming their pain away. I stopped in college because I didn't have time (or will) for the gym, and it suddenly wasn't fun to play against people several years older than you. I imagine American football would be much worse in terms because of the external protection provided by the padding and helmets. It hurts more to hit skin to skin, so you don't do it so much, and when you do, it's carefully. But in older age, and professional settings, I imagine things are different.
- xadhominemx 5y ago
  Severe head impacts are rare but I used to play rugby and felt like my head was jostled hard several times a day, and I would often finish practice or a match with scrapes and bruises on my head.
- zeku 5y ago
  My HS rugby(USA) someone got a concussion pretty much every single game. I decided to quit the sport after HS despite how fun it is, it's not worth my future.
  - ihaveajob 5y ago
    That's odd, I don't remember a single concussion in any game for the 3 years I played. I wonder if in the US kids play more football-like? I played in Spain, where it's a fringe sport, very rare outside the amateur/college circuit.
    - zeku 5y ago
      We probably did. Most of our players were off season football players.
pessimizer 5y ago
The emergent research about CTE in what are upper-middle class sports in the US like soccer and rugby are ironically going to be an effective shield for the NFL, because there's no way American suburbanites are going to allow a little brain damage to force them to limit their European affectations.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
dboreham 5y ago
I was required to take Rugby in school, but I engaged at the minimum level possible: I was sent off once by the coach for failing to make physical contact with other players. Sounds like I dodged a bullet.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  >I engaged at the minimum level possible That was my approach to all sport at school.
  - bethecloud 5y ago
    Loser mindset
    - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28364032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28364032
make3 5y ago
I don't know why it's not more of a mainstream opinion to try to make these sports as unpopular as possible or to straight up make them illegal to play in how ever many official settings as you can manage, including highschools at the very least. It's very fucking bad, everyone knows this. I don't know how long it will take for people to get it.
nostromo 5y ago
Professional rugby. This isn't going to be a typical outcome for you or me. I play rec league rugby and find that it's a great way to stay in shape and meet new people. More people would be healthy if we encouraged people to continue to play sports throughout life, including contact sports.
- Permit 5y ago
  > This isn't going to be a typical outcome for you or me. Can you elaborate? What makes you say that with such confidence? Is amateur rugby non-contact? Edit: Digging into it a little bit there does appear to be some anecdotal evidence of CTE among amateur rugby players: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/13/rugby-dementia-ex-players-legal-action-authorities-head-injuries https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/13/rugby-dementia... > “I’ve seen quite a number of rugby players in the last five to 10 years with CTE pathology in the brain, and none of them has been professional – they all come from the amateur era.” I don't think we can say definitively that CTE will be an issue for amateur rugby players but I think that's only because of a lack of studies not because any study has suggested amateur players don't suffer from CTE.
  - qqqwerty 5y ago
    Rugby turned pro in 1995. So the "amateur era" is likely referring to players pre-1995. While not strictly "pro", they were not your typical rec league players. They were doing international tournaments and playing for national teams, etc... From what I have read, the evidence really points to duration of exposure as the key risk factor. So for someone who plays at the amateur club level, typically practicing 1-2 times a week, the risk might be fairly low. They are probably racking up a fraction of the exposure that a professional would experience in a given year.
Romanulus 5y ago
I read Rugby as Ruby and chortled a bit.
8eye 5y ago
i know joe rogan talks about sports and head injury’s and how psychedelic mushrooms have been shown to help

276 points by iechoz6H 5y ago

I’ve been following concussions in sports for while as part of a company I’m launching soon (https://ocula.ai https://ocula.ai) - it’s seriously scary stuff now that longer term, validated studies are beginning to be published - it’s worth noting NFL powered through its allocated funds for concussion payouts of $0.5B almost a decade ahead of schedule (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/10056496 https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/10056...) and there’s many more on the way…

toomuchtodo 5y ago
What’s the end game for American football when, inherently, everyone ends up with brain damage? I assume the NFL will end up bankrupt from civil claims?
- fallingknife 5y ago
  Why can't they just add "this causes brain damage and we are not liable" to their contract?
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    The most American of answers.
    - quantumBerry 5y ago
      Person A consents voluntarily to Person B to take large sum of money in exchange for concussion/negative health effects on their own body (which I presume we agree they own their own body including the ability to risk it). What business is it to anyone else, least of all the government?
      - alistairSH 5y ago
        You're only thinking about the NFL. High school and youth players are neither paid nor are they old enough to consent. Collegiate players are old enough to consent, but aren't paid (excluding tuition/room/board). Regardless of the sums of money, do we as a society, really want to allow people to allow themselves to become brain damaged in exchange for money? If not, we need to decide where we draw the line.
        quantumBerry 5y ago
        Yes, we really should allow people who consent to risk becoming brain damaged to do it in exchange for money. We already allow people to do it for free, like allowing people to ride dirt bikes. >You're only thinking about the NFL. The article was literally about professional rugby players. Yes I realize most of those guys are not making millions. >High school and youth players are neither paid nor are they old enough to consent. Which is why I said those who consent, who are you arguing against? My statement was "Person A consents." If you believe a minor cannot consent then by definition we haven't spoken about high school and youth. As an aside, do you believe all sex amongst 17 year olds is rape as well, since you are not attributing them the ability to consent?
      - 0134340 5y ago
        It becomes the government's and everyone else's business because who's going to look after you if you get disabled and can't work? You'll then have to proceed to beg, steal or live on government benefits and then you become everyone else's problem. As long as we live in a society we are our brother's keeper whether we like it or not. The only escape is to move away from society so you have no interaction with it so then you can't complain about society interacting with you. Which in today's world is impossible as society will still at least affect your natural environment, unfortunately.
        quantumBerry 5y ago
        If you don't like the fact that the disabled may have to be looked out for on your dime or taxpayer's dime, that sounds more like an argument for government not "looking out" for someone who voluntarily risked their body. Being your brother's keeper doesn't mean getting an IRS agent and some agent with a gun to force someone who didn't consent to someone else playing football/rugby to pay for their injury. Being brother's keeper doesn't mean removing consent. I think what you should really be arguing for is the rugby association to properly compensate anyone with medical disability as a result of their employment.
  - _jal 5y ago
    Aside from being appalling, this would also serve as an admission.
  - syops 5y ago
    In a properly functioning society the government tends to look out for the best interests of its citizens. People are local optimization machines and they tend to make bad long term decisions. In order to prevent exploitation of labor it is necessary for government to intervene from time to time. It's why we don't let mining companies say to the prospective employees: "This is dangerous and we aren't liable." Instead we require mining companies to take prudent steps to ensure the safety of workers. People desperate for a paycheck often times will do things they ordinarily wouldn't.
    - thinkharderdev 5y ago
      In general that is true, but I don't think NFL players fall into the category of "desperate for a paycheck." That said, the vast majority of football players never make a dime and if the NFL DOES go bankrupt it will because the pipeline of players dries up because many fewer people want to play at the HS/College level given the obvious health risks and very low adds of becoming a successful professional.
      - 1270018080 5y ago
        NFL players are absolutely desperate for a paycheck. For many, it's their way out of poverty. They have to go through 8+ years of brain damage for their only chance of not ending up poor like everyone else in their family. And the avg tenure in the NFL is only 3 years.
  - mustacheemperor 5y ago
    Professional football relies on the infrastructure of child/school football producing new players, so there’s going to be a trickle down effect from whatever happens with the NFL. Even if over 18 year olds signing contracts can waive their liability, high schoolers can’t. And mounting scientific evidence about the risk of concussions is going to cause it’s own liability issues for the schools hosting the sports. Anecdotally, I remember a couple of my high school classmates seemed perceptibly affected by their repeated concussions in varsity football, and would discuss at the lunch table how to throw the “impact” test at the start of the year so they would still be allowed to play after a serious hit. The test compared your score after injury to your score at the start of the year, so theoretically if you do badly enough on round 1 you can still pass with a “mild” concussion.
    - quantumBerry 5y ago
      Professional software development relies on the infrastructure of childhood STEM producing new scientists, so there’s going to be a trickle down effect from whatever happens with the startup sector. Even if over 18 year olds signing contracts can waive their liability, high schoolers can’t. And mounting scientific evidence about the risk of pressure to succeed in the sciences is going to cause it’s own liability issues for the schools hosting the subjects, such as the many suicides of engineering students who are overwhelmed with pressure to succeed. Anecdotally, more than 1 engineering student has killed themself, affected by their repeated challenges in engineering school, and has discussed their challenges at the lunch table about how to throw back a "drink" at the start of the night so they could still allow themselves to continue after a serious reprimand by their PI. -------------- NFL primarily sources from collegiate football, not high school. In fact, there is a strict rule a player must be 3 year out of high school before being drafted. If you have a problem with the way collegiate football recruits children, perhaps it is best to start there.
- kasey_junk 5y ago
  Early on in American footballs life there was a problem with excessive deaths. The President stepped in and effectively demanded rule changes to make the sport less deadly. I doubt that will happen again but you can imagine a similar set of rule changes to help with brain health. I suspect the NFL will need to drive that as I don’t see a Teddy Roosevelt line public figure these days.
  - ProjectArcturis 5y ago
    What rule changes can you make to football to eliminate head hits, without making the game unrecognizable? I think if that were a possible solution, they would have done it already. As is they're just tinkering on the margins with things like kickoff rules (encouraging more touchbacks to eliminate contact on one of the most dangerous plays of the game).
    - LgWoodenBadger 5y ago
      Targeting (leading with the crown of the helmet) is a penalty that can get a college player ejected from the game, and if in the second half will carry over to the first half of the next game. A blow to the QBs head is a 15 yard penalty and automatic 1st down. Spearing is a personal foul, 15 yard penalty, automatic 1st down IIRC. I'm sure there are others...
      - Goronmon 5y ago
        I think that would fall under "tinkering on the margins" as the person you replied to phrased it. An example of a more systemic change would be elimination of any head-to-head impacts that might occur between defense and offensive linemen on any given play. How do you work to eliminate those without changing the game into something unrecognizable?
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - toast0 5y ago
- adventured 5y ago
  > What’s the end game for American football when, inherently, everyone ends up with brain damage? Everyone doesn't end up with brain damage. Most NFL players only play for a few seasons. The average career is only three seasons; the median is even lower. An exceptionally small number of players are going to suffer brain damage in two or three seasons. Today's NFL players are paid far beyond extraordinarily well, they don't need the money. The bulk of the claims are coming from players in the past that were not paid so well and do need the money. Guys that used to play for $100,000 /yr across a ten year career, and played at a time when the NFL was far more violent and head protection was even worse. A player that lasts 10-15 years in the NFL today will typically earn $100 million or more. They'll have a lot of money and some will have lasting brain damage. A very small fraction of those players will ever consider suing the NFL. > I assume the NFL will end up bankrupt from civil claims? That's an incorrect assumption. The legal cost will barely be a drop in the bucket of the NFL's financial machinery. Someone else mentioned the $500m concussion fund was burned through sooner than expected. $50m-$100m per year is an easy problem for the NFL these days. The commissioner gets paid $40 million per year. League revenue was $16 billion in 2019. One team, the Dallas Cowboys, alone has $280 million in operating income. If you cycle out ten more years, the NFL could afford $500 million every single year in liability costs related to head injuries, and it would still be fine (and that number isn't going to happen).
  - watwut 5y ago
    Most players don't ever get to high league. They play in schools, colleges and clubs. They don't earn money and they do suffer injuries all the time.
  - alistairSH 5y ago
    Most NFL players only play for a few seasons. A large portion of collegiate players will end up with CTE. Enough high school players end up with CTE that we should be concerned. https://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2017/evidence-of-cte-found-in-brains-of-deceased-football-players/ https://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2017/evidence-of-cte-fo...
    - microtherion 5y ago
- astura 5y ago
  Probably not, the death rate for former WWE wrestlers is absolutely astounding and they haven't been sued out of existence. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-pro-wrestlers-dying-at-an-unusual-rate/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/are-pro-wrestlers-dying... https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/comparing-the-wwfs-death-rate-to-the-nfls-and-other-pro-leagues/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/comparing-the-wwfs-deat... https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33817959 https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33817959
ProjectArcturis 5y ago
You're probably aware of this, but this study and many others indicate that repeated sub-concussive hits can be just as dangerous to the brain. Indeed, some would argue that the NFL's focus on concussions is a way of looking like they're doing something while ignoring the fact that there is no way to play NFL football without causing brain damage.
- ben-gy 5y ago
  Yep - 100% correct - brain scans can identify early signs of CTE processing after a single season for a soccer player in a defensive or offensive position that heads the ball regularly.

elijaht 5y ago

I played rugby and actively follow it and football but it's harder and harder to grapple with the long term consequences of these sports as more information about damage especially from sub-concussion level impacts comes out. It's hard to imagine but I think the NFL will have a serious reckoning over the next 10-20 years unless they can fix this somehow

chrisseaton 5y ago
Can they change the rules to any reasonable degree to mitigate the risk? Other codes, like Association, are far lower contact than the Rugby or American rules.
- jabl 5y ago
  IIRC there are results around brain damage in association football as well, mostly due to players heading the ball. Guess nobody has dared suggest prohibiting head playing in association football. Would be interesting to see how the game would change if such a rule would be enacted.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > Guess nobody has dared suggest prohibiting head playing in association football. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jul/28/major-heading-restrictions-agreed-for-english-football-at-all-levels-from-this-season https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jul/28/major-headi...
  - kitd 5y ago
    There are guidelines around heading at junior level: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51614088 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51614088 But it's one thing to not practise it, and another to actually ban it. I can see the latter in <5 years at all levels if the current research is followed up correctly.
  - tzs 5y ago
    I can see three ways to get rid of heading. 1. Just ban it, with the same penalties as using your hands. I used to think that this was the way to go, but I rarely watched soccer. I still don't understand soccer but over the last week I've watched a fair bit [1] and see now that simply removing headers without replacing them would alter the game too much. 2. Have the players wear something like a tennis racquet but with a longer handle attached to their back with the head of it extending above the player's head. Players can hit the ball with this instead of the head. Hitting with their head is treated like using their hands as in #1. This is one of those things that would probably be seen as fine if and only if it has been done that way for a long time. Otherwise, it is too ridiculous to seriously propose. 3. Players can deflect the ball with the part of their arm between the elbow and the wrist, but only if the elbow is above the ears. "Above" is defined relative to the player's orientation, not relative to the ground. This seems like it could be a close enough replacement for heading to not alter things too much. [1] I have a "free" (it is really a rental with $0/month rent) streaming box from my ISP that includes a free Peacock Premium subscription. The ISP noticed I rarely use it and asked me to return it if I'm not going to use it more. Everything I'm interested in on it I can get on my Fire TV or on my smart TV, including Peacock. But I'm not sure if the free Peacock Premium would continue, so instead I'm trying to use the "free" box more. One way I've done that is when I'm relaxing on the couch and not otherwise using the TV I've streamed replays and highlights from soccer, both to keep up usage on the box and to see if by watching enough soccer I'll eventually start to see that it only looks largely random and there really is a lot of skill and strategy and tactics involved.

rory 5y ago

I played rugby for years and had a constant, mild headache the entire time. Went abroad for five months so I took a break, and I couldn't believe how good I felt. I had forgotten what it felt like for my brain not to hurt. Needless to say, I never played again.

unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
The study covered one season and did not cover long term impacts. It's entirely possible that, like the parent comment, the whole team finished the season, tested poorly on cognitive performance, took a few months break and were then back close to baseline. The comments about long-term impact are generally not about one season of ordinary contact in any sport.
- blunte 5y ago
  How many times of being hit in the head is ok? Obviously one wrong hit in the head can lead to death. Is there any acceptable level of being hit in the head? Why this is even a debate is boggling to me.
  - rory 5y ago
    I actually don't think it was primarily caused by hits to the head. Every collision (including tackles and scrums) "rattles" the head in a way that causes pain, and presumably damage, over time.
    - blunte 5y ago
      Ok, forgive me for being imprecise in my language :). Any willful activity that harms the brain should be considered carefully before undertaking. This would include drinking alcohol as well (something which many of us willfully choose).
  - unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
    One wrong step, sneeze, or meal can lead to death. People compete in sport not to get hit in the head, but for other benefits which are legion, just as people become sedentary doing desk jobs not in hopes of suffering ill health from doing no physical activity, but again because their focus is elsewhere.

pixelbreaker 5y ago

I played rugby at school and I'm f-f-f-fine.

joelbluminator 5y ago

I used Ruby for years without apparent decline

robmccoll 5y ago
I also read it "Ruby" and then laughed at myself.
pawelduda 5y ago
I developed GIL. Don't do Ruby.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

dr-detroit 5y ago

Pro cyclists sometimes die from crashes where do you draw the line in sport safety?

jtbayly 5y ago
Great question. It's not easy to answer where to draw the line with risks. One difference is that a bicycle accident is an accident, whereas contact sports it is part of the game to hit each other. So it's less a question of whether a rare event might happen to you, and more a question of what is this common event doing to me?
unclekev 5y ago
> Pro cyclists sometimes die from crashes The difference here being the cyclists are not purposely driving their bikes into cars/objects vs being rugby being an actual 'contact sport'
- thinkharderdev 5y ago
  I'm not so sure about that. Obviously pro cyclists aren't purposely crashing but the nature of the sport is to put yourself in extremely dangerous situations on a regular basis. Descending at 60+ mph on narrow, wet roads. Sprints where they are riding in excess of 35ph in VERY close quarters with other riders, etc. Not to mention the long term health consequences of maintaining an extremely low body fat percentage for long periods of time. The parent is being downvoted for a "what about X?" response but I think it is actually a legitimate question to ask. Almost every elite sport carries with it serious health and safety risks. But to counter their concern I would argue that elite sports almost always carry health risks, may amateur sports do not and are broadly beneficial. Contact sports such as American Football, Rugby, etc however are in a different class where the amateur athletes are also putting themselves at significant risk.
unethical_ban 5y ago
Somewhere between "this is a threat to every participant in the sport and most of them actively deny the threat while recruiting children to play" and "it happens upon occasion".

notjustanymike 5y ago

Watching or playing?

nayuki 5y ago
You can get head impact from watching?

catchmilk 5y ago

It's interesting to see that this issue is rather controversial within the Rugby/NFL world, whereas other sports it's almost a given? Boxing, for example, has pretty damaging long-term side-effects with notable legends dying prematurely. But nobody is really making Hollywood movies about it (like Concussions starring Will Smith). I wonder whether Rugby/NFL is just headed towards the direction of these sort of consequences becoming accepted as being 'part of the sport'.

rapsey 5y ago
Because boxing is a minor sport in comparison. Way to many billions at stake in football and rugby.
- dmurray 5y ago
  Boxing is one of the biggest sports in the world. Rugby is pretty niche.
  - phaemon 5y ago
    That's completely wrong I'm afraid. In terms of popularity (number of fans) Rugby is about as popular as American Football, at around 9th most popular sport. The top two are 1. Association Football (aka soccer), 2. Cricket Boxing doesn't make the top 10.
    - pessimizer 5y ago
      The rise of MMA severely damaged the popularity of boxing.
Retric 5y ago
Boxing is somewhat popular to watch, but we don’t have high school boxing with large numbers of participants at most schools. I am fine with adults taking such risks with their own bodies knowing the risks, but it’s another thing when public school teams enter the equation. Replacing full contact high school football with say flag football or soccer would be unpopular, but continuing is an ethically dubious proposition.

jackschultz 5y ago

I'm in the US and had sort of a reckoning against out football a few years ago after a medical incident of mine. I used to be a big watcher of the NFL, mostly because my team was really good, but suddenly I had trouble watching week after week guys getting drilled in the head and being carted off to have their career ends. These league average numbers [1] are horrible to think about, with how little tie running backs play when they're able to make money (screw the NCAA) and they get hit every play. One of the arguments on a change that could help is a big transition back to old school leather helmets, or no helmets. There's been much talk about safety of rugby compared to football, especially from armchair thinkers [2]. Some of the answers in that Quora thread are agreeing with the result of this article, where rugby isn't exactly that much safer regardless of lack of helmet or tackling style. Heck even soccer is having to come to terms with headers causing head injuries later in life [3]. With more "lower" impact sports like rugby (not that much lower, but has been considered lower) and soccer coming out with so much head injury reports, I wonder how long we'll be stuck with popularity of the NFL. Brett Favre, a quarterback from the south, came out and said to not have kids play tackle until they're 14. But when they turn 14? It's not like that risk goes away. I'm lucky for myself that I like watching baseball and basketball the most so I don't have to think deal with watching head injuries that last lifetimes for the players. Or maybe that's why I like watching those two team sports the most. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/240102/average-player-career-length-in-the-national-football-league/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/240102/average-player-ca... [2] https://www.quora.com/Would-the-NFL-or-football-in-general-be-safer-if-there-were-no-pads-or-helmets https://www.quora.com/Would-the-NFL-or-football-in-general-b... [3] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/02/01/512848122/with-concussion-risk-in-soccer-headers-may-kick-it-up-a-notch https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/02/01/5128481... [4] https://www.npr.org/2021/08/17/1028547803/brett-favre-kids-football-14-cte https://www.npr.org/2021/08/17/1028547803/brett-favre-kids-f...

alistairSH 5y ago
Brett Favre, a quarterback from the south, came out and said to not have kids play tackle until they're 14. But when they turn 14? It's not like that risk goes away. IIRC, his statement was based on CTE studies on the brains of ex-high school (but not ex-college/NFL) players. Of the sample, those with signs of CTE had played youth football as well as high school ball. Only one CTE sample did not play youth ball (and the rest of the high-school-only samples did not have CTE). Gist of it being that playing youth ball through high school puts you at a significantly higher risk of CTE than high school only. But, you are correct that any time spent playing has risks.

eggy 5y ago

I played rugby in high school, and I was surprised at how much you don't hit your head intentionally like you do in American football. You use your shoulders, torso, and arms, or at least that is how we were trained. Sure, you hit your head occasionally, but sometimes in a maul you find yourself clasping your hands behind your head in a maul to guard the ball against the opposition, while your team tries to hook the ball out of your stomach side, while you are laying down in a fetal position on the pitch! I still think American football players maximize power off the line, feel protected by helmets and shoulder pads, and basically create a more powerful jolt when they hit heads instead of shoulder pads. When you're not wearing a helmet, you tend to become better at protecting your head against intentional hits. Then again Garryownens can result in being hit like a freight train if you decide to catch it!

smcl 5y ago
For non-rugby types, here's a Garryowen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmdqLiEvYw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmdqLiEvYw4
- engineer_22 5y ago
  I don't know what I'm looking for, there's several stages of play in that clip, is a garyowen where they collide in midair?
  - maccard 5y ago
    It's the high kick.
  - smcl 5y ago
    edit: just read Jenk's comment :)
  - Jenk 5y ago
    A "Garryowen" is very high, but not that long, kick. It's a kick where the intent is to have your own team catch it. Let's say you are the fullback and you are facing a wall of approaching opposition, charging at you. All of your team are ahead of you, too, so they are of no use. Blocking is illegal. The opposition are not allowed to tackle you if you don't have the ball, so you kick it up high, over their heads, and run past them, catch it, and carry on running. The opposition's inertia will keep them going past the ball (and you) so when you regain the ball, you'll have a clear field ahead of you. That's the dream. The reality is you now have a field of fast, heavy, people running toward the same spot on the field, all looking straight-up at the ball that is now 50ft in the air, unaware they are about to collide in a wind-taking, bone-crunching crash.

marttt 5y ago

Reminds me of John Urschel, MIT mathematician who quit his NFL career because he was afraid of possible brain damage. Looks like he finished his PhD in 2021 [0]. Congrats! Apparently, Urschel had suffered a concussion a few years before his decision [1, 2]. There was also an interesting, semi-related HN thread about football and brain trauma earlier [3]. 0: https://math.mit.edu/~urschel/ https://math.mit.edu/~urschel/ 1: https://archive.is/RG9tg https://archive.is/RG9tg 2: https://news.mit.edu/2019/student-john-urschel-math-football-0515 https://news.mit.edu/2019/student-john-urschel-math-football... 4: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16291827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16291827

gumby 5y ago
He put in the time to qualify for a league pension, then quit then quit the NFL. Somehow this overlapped with his time as a masters student (source, iirc, alumni section of technology review).
antasvara 5y ago
He's got a solid book [1] with some insight into his decisions. He's an interesting guy- definitely worth a read. [1] https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/557242/mind-and-matter-by-john-urschel-and-louisa-thomas/ https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/557242/mind-and-mat...
reedf1 5y ago
He has written a book as well! Now if he can play an instrument and embroider he'd be my choice for the human general talent gauntlet.

ren_engineer 5y ago

Football and Rugby get a lot of attention but soccer also has major issues with heading the ball for low impact and major head injuries when people accidentally hit heads. In America girl's soccer is actually a close 2nd place finisher to boys football when it comes to diagnosed concussions

unethical_ban 5y ago

I played rugby for a few seasons, and I had several concussions. I never blacked out, but I temporarily lost my ability to speak (several minutes), as well as got emotional. I cried though I wasn't upset, then I would get enraged even though I wasn't mad at anything (except maybe getting a concussion). I'm in my 30s now, and I can't remember things like I used to. I can be thinking of something, and it "just disappears". I feel like my mind behaves like a 65 year old, not a 30-something. I used to have a lot more focus, more dedication to certain things, and it's harder now. I don't know what combination of growing older, drinking, or concussions have caused my issues. And it's hard to say I regret playing, because it was fun and a part of who I am. However, concussions are not a joke, and I wish more players had the sense to step away from the game after getting a small number, rather than thinking "it's normal" and playing for 20-30 years.

noname_jabroni 5y ago
This is very close to my experience. I played rugby for 10 years and had multiple concussions (2 that knocked me out). After one concussion I went through a period where I would get emotional and angry, especially when drinking (i.e. have 2 beers, black out, and then black-in crying). I quit drinking about 2 years ago (I'm in my early 30s) and the mental clarity has been incredible. I had a tendency to drink heavily when I drank (about weekly) and so if you're struggling with memory issues I'd suggest giving sobriety a chance for a month or two to see if it makes a difference.

nayuki 5y ago

> players saw a decline in blood flow to the brain and cognitive function - the ability to ... perform mental gymnastics. Avoiding mental gymnastics can't be a bad thing, right?

swader999 5y ago

I wonder if you even have to hit your head, perhaps just a hard tackle to the ground would be enough for a minor concussion.

favorited 5y ago
Research of Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy in NFL players suggests that concussions aren't even necessary to cause CTE. The constant subconcussive hits are enough. https://www.bumc.bu.edu/busm/2018/01/18/study-hits-not-concussions-cause-cte/ https://www.bumc.bu.edu/busm/2018/01/18/study-hits-not-concu...

ihaveajob 5y ago

My experience with high school rugby was that head impacts were exceedingly rare. Lots of bruises, though. The showers after a game were loud, with kids screaming their pain away. I stopped in college because I didn't have time (or will) for the gym, and it suddenly wasn't fun to play against people several years older than you. I imagine American football would be much worse in terms because of the external protection provided by the padding and helmets. It hurts more to hit skin to skin, so you don't do it so much, and when you do, it's carefully. But in older age, and professional settings, I imagine things are different.

xadhominemx 5y ago
Severe head impacts are rare but I used to play rugby and felt like my head was jostled hard several times a day, and I would often finish practice or a match with scrapes and bruises on my head.
zeku 5y ago
My HS rugby(USA) someone got a concussion pretty much every single game. I decided to quit the sport after HS despite how fun it is, it's not worth my future.
- ihaveajob 5y ago
  That's odd, I don't remember a single concussion in any game for the 3 years I played. I wonder if in the US kids play more football-like? I played in Spain, where it's a fringe sport, very rare outside the amateur/college circuit.
  - zeku 5y ago
    We probably did. Most of our players were off season football players.

pessimizer 5y ago

The emergent research about CTE in what are upper-middle class sports in the US like soccer and rugby are ironically going to be an effective shield for the NFL, because there's no way American suburbanites are going to allow a little brain damage to force them to limit their European affectations.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

dboreham 5y ago

I was required to take Rugby in school, but I engaged at the minimum level possible: I was sent off once by the coach for failing to make physical contact with other players. Sounds like I dodged a bullet.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
>I engaged at the minimum level possible That was my approach to all sport at school.
- bethecloud 5y ago
  Loser mindset
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28364032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28364032

make3 5y ago

I don't know why it's not more of a mainstream opinion to try to make these sports as unpopular as possible or to straight up make them illegal to play in how ever many official settings as you can manage, including highschools at the very least. It's very fucking bad, everyone knows this. I don't know how long it will take for people to get it.

nostromo 5y ago

Professional rugby. This isn't going to be a typical outcome for you or me. I play rec league rugby and find that it's a great way to stay in shape and meet new people. More people would be healthy if we encouraged people to continue to play sports throughout life, including contact sports.

Permit 5y ago
> This isn't going to be a typical outcome for you or me. Can you elaborate? What makes you say that with such confidence? Is amateur rugby non-contact? Edit: Digging into it a little bit there does appear to be some anecdotal evidence of CTE among amateur rugby players: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/13/rugby-dementia-ex-players-legal-action-authorities-head-injuries https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/13/rugby-dementia... > “I’ve seen quite a number of rugby players in the last five to 10 years with CTE pathology in the brain, and none of them has been professional – they all come from the amateur era.” I don't think we can say definitively that CTE will be an issue for amateur rugby players but I think that's only because of a lack of studies not because any study has suggested amateur players don't suffer from CTE.
- qqqwerty 5y ago
  Rugby turned pro in 1995. So the "amateur era" is likely referring to players pre-1995. While not strictly "pro", they were not your typical rec league players. They were doing international tournaments and playing for national teams, etc... From what I have read, the evidence really points to duration of exposure as the key risk factor. So for someone who plays at the amateur club level, typically practicing 1-2 times a week, the risk might be fairly low. They are probably racking up a fraction of the exposure that a professional would experience in a given year.

Romanulus 5y ago

I read Rugby as Ruby and chortled a bit.

8eye 5y ago

i know joe rogan talks about sports and head injury’s and how psychedelic mushrooms have been shown to help