12 ms·

Sailfish 4

375 points by nabla9 5y ago

api 5y ago
Why is purchase prohibited from the USA or other countries outside the supported ones? You can get unlocked Android phones and SIM cards just fine. Some tax nonsense?
- ch_123 5y ago
  That, or patent licensing issues. Since they seem to be positioning themselves as a privacy-oriented OS for governments and businesses, maybe they decided that their market lies elsewhere, and that licensing IP for the US is not worth it.
p4bl0 5y ago
Has anyone experience with Sailfish? Can it run apps like Signal and WhatsApp? Is it stable? I know the website says that it can, but I'm looking for actual user feedback. EDIT: What about the KDE Connect app?
- letharion 5y ago
  No experience, but the shop (https://shop.jolla.com/ https://shop.jolla.com/ ) claims "Android App Support" so I'd expect you can run most apps.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- memling 5y ago
  > Has anyone experience with Sailfish? Can it run apps like Signal and WhatsApp? Is it stable? I ran Sailfish in the 2.x days on an old Moto G Falcon. They did not support Android apps at the time, but recent versions are supposed to.[1] My experience with Sailfish was pretty positive, but I have a high pain tolerance and don't need or want my phone to be more than a phone. (I need it to make calls and handle SMS/MMS. MMS messaging was iffy: reception was fine, but multiparty conversations didn't always thread well. I consider web browsing on the phone a bit of a mixed bag. Tethering is a bonus.) It was pretty. I liked being able to SSH into the phone. I appreciated the easy way to change themes (and that they migrated settings like volume, etc.). It was a slick O/S. Sadly my Falcon died, and I got a burner phone. It's hard to argue with $40 for the phone (KaiOS) and an MVNO that handles my comms on the cheap. I've toyed with the idea of picking up another one that's compatible and flashing the phone--but it looks like it's harder to get the OS onto newer devices these days. [1] https://sailfishos.org https://sailfishos.org
  - ryantgtg 5y ago
    I think they did support Android apps at that time, but only on the official devices (which is the same situation as now). I flashed 2.x back then, too, back in the glory days of flashing ubuntu touch and firefox os, etc. I loved the UI of Sailfish. Fatal flaw for me was the inability to group text. As far as I know there is still no group texting. The European users/devs claim this isn’t an issue, because they all use third party messaging apps. I’m glad they’re still developing Sailfish!
- c-c-c-c-c 5y ago
  I had the original jolla phone. Fun device and great for starting out developing simple apps. Back then they had a 3rd party whatsapp client called mittäkuuluu (litteraly what's up in finnish) in addition to the official one running through the android layer. Since then whatsapp has blocked 3rd party clients and i believe youre not able to run whatsapp on the consumer version of sailfish. Something really cool they had was integration with whatsapp and the facebook messenger with the sms app with contacts synced across the three.
  - mpol 5y ago
    There were even two apps, Mittäkuuluu by coderus, and Whatsup from older Symbian and Meego times. Both worked fine and were lovely to use, untill the company Whatsapp sent threatening letters from their lawyers to the developers. Whatsapp also often blocked users using those apps (I had it happen multiple times) and you could reactivate your account if you logged in with the official whatsapp.apk again. A few days later the Sailfish apps were updated and I would switch to one of those again :) So now there is no other option then use the whatsapp.apk, or just not use it and switch completely to Signal.
- fractallyte 5y ago
  It's my daily driver (on a Sony Xperia XA2). Signal and WhatsApp work perfectly, without any issues.
- mpol 5y ago
  Yes, the Android layer can run Whatsapp and Signal. I also run Firefox as an apk on it, I use the last v68 version of that. The Android layer is only available on the commercial version, and only on officially supported device. It has been available since 2013 on the original Jolla 1, which was for me the reason to upgrade from a Nokia N9. For me it is stable on my XA2. Though the software is made by a small company and their efforts are spread relatively thin. They don't have thousands of developers working on their mobile OS. For Android apps, the bluetooth stack of Android and Linux/Bluez is different, and the middleware called libhybris does not support offering bluetooth to Android apps. It might come in the future, many people in the community wish it to come available. There are many native apps, and there might not be that much need for all kinds of Android apps. Also, there is talk about offering Android support for community devices, like the Sony Tama devices (high end, small form factor) or Xiaumi devices.
- sakebomb 5y ago
  I use it a majority of the time. (Seldom need Android for work). It runs Signal just fine, along with all the other chat apps. I enjoy Sailfish very much. I will say that installing the google play store is not a simple click through, but I also don't care for it. A majority of the apps I want don't use google play anyway. I would highly recommend you give it a try for a few weeks and you won't go back.
  - ahnick 5y ago
    What do you use for maps/navigation?
    - mpol 5y ago
      Not the parent poster. For maps I use OSM. I have 3 apps installed, Pure Maps, OSMscout and modRana. I don't use navigation, but I understand that with OSM the navigation can be somewhat of a disappointment. There was a native app for Here Maps, but IIRC it was only licensed and available for the Jolla 1. I don't have it installed on my Sony XA2 and I think it's not available either.
      - bitL 5y ago
        I have HERE Maps on Xperia 10 ii, straight from Jolla Store. Maybe it's because I bought their paid package?
  - ahmedfromtunis 5y ago
    I'm just curious: when you say "I enjoy Sailfish very much" what does that entail? What does it mean to enjoy an OS. I ask this because I find myself numerous times disappointed: after installing a new OS, there's mostly nothing "new" or outstanding to enjoy other than the few limited different features. After that, it's just the same old terminal and Chrome with the occasional trip to the file browser.
    - mpol 5y ago
      Not the parent poster, but I often say similar things :) For me it's the idea that the software provider thinks privacy is important and I trust them much more than Google or Apple. It's also very close to desktop linux. Root access over ssh is just one checkbox away in the settings. After that I can install any software that is available on Linux, or I can mess about in /etc. The Ambience system is very nice as well. With almost only native apps and a white-on-black ambience, my phone is visually very quiet and not that much distracting. It feels like I own this phone, almost as much as my desktop computer. I am not renting it where someone else has root access and I don't (or I have to fight for it).
- poetaster 5y ago
  Sigal via whisperfish. In rust!. I'm still on 3.4. Community port. Gigaset gs290. SFOS rocks.
- ravenstine 5y ago
  On that topic, are there any desktop-oriented Linux distros that support Android apps? Seems like that could fill some gaps in some places where a native Linux app sucks but an Android equivalent would be sufficient. (obviously in a few but perhaps not most cases) Maybe emulation would be needed for most current machines and be really slow, but with more ARM laptops coming in the future it seems like something GNU/Linux would need to do to compete in that space.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    It can be done via Anbox or WayDroid, but additional steps (e.g. via QEMU) are needed to run ARM-based apps on a typical x86 desktop, and performance might be a bit underwhelming.
- bitL 5y ago
  There is Whisperfish Signal client available on OpenRepos.net, if you don't want to install Android subsystem (I don't): https://openrepos.net/content/rubdos/whisperfish https://openrepos.net/content/rubdos/whisperfish
ognarb 5y ago
Are they still using qt 5.6?
- mpol 5y ago
  It's complicated :) After Qt 5.6 some important parts were relicensed as GPL. Which means that the Wayland compositor and some other Jolla parts needs to be either GPL (which the main investor is reluctant to do) or Jolla needs to buy a commercial license for Qt (which the main investor is reluctant to do). I understand that the developers at Jolla are ready to flip the switch to a newer Qt and have been for some time, but there is no business decision made yet.
- poetaster 5y ago
  Yes. But there is progress. The only real suckage is webview & co. I'm ok with lagging a bit, but for web.
AshamedCaptain 5y ago
It has to be said that I find the ties to the Russian government most disturbing for a "privacy"-focused OS, specially after I realized it's not actually OSS. EDIT: Emphasis on the non-OSS part. I couldn't care less as long as it was actually fully open.
- smallerfish 5y ago
  Can you point to references about Russian gov involvement? I see from the Sailfish page that it's deployed widely in Russia, but Jolla themselves are Finnish (https://jolla.com/about/ https://jolla.com/about/), not exactly the most Russia friendly country around. That their OS is used in Russia isn't the same as it being Russian developed, which it doesn't appear to be(?)
  - Raed667 5y ago
    > Russia trusts in Aurora OS > One of the first customers for OMP was Russian Post https://sailfishos.org/cases/ https://sailfishos.org/cases/
    - smallerfish 5y ago
      > The product was soon re-branded to Aurora OS. Aurora OS is an independent, “standalone” product and derivative work of Sailfish OS, and property of Open Mobile Platform LLC. From your link. Is there any evidence of them pushing code back upstream?
      - mpol 5y ago
        Yes, the latest release have seen some code contributions from Aurora. Some well-known people in the community even work for Aurora, like coderus. To be fair, without the Russian investor, there would be no Jolla anymore :)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - 5y ago
woliveirajr 5y ago
> Currently, it is available for Xperia 10 II, Xperia 10, Xperia 10 Plus, single and dual-SIM variants of Sony Xperia XA2, Xperia XA2 Plus, Xperia XA2 Ultra, Sony Xperia X, and Gemini PDA. So, EU-only (and 2 or 3 morecountries) and limited devices.
- sakebomb 5y ago
  I use it here in the US. As for the devices, the ones you listed are the ones licensed. There are a lot more community ports: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS#Community_enthusiasts'_ports_to_devices_from_other_vendors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS#Community_enthusia...
- poetaster 5y ago
  I use a gs290 from gigaset. Dirt cheap. Use a community port installed with ubports. Dead simple. Build apps with qt. Qt. Have fun.
Mutjake 5y ago
I wonder if Sailfish or a scrubbed Android (GrapheneOS?) would be worthwhile to give a test run for. Hard passing Apple is going to be painful, but I’m having trouble stomaching the direction where they see implanting end-user devices for LE purposes, so I might need to give it a spin. Any experiences on what would be the biggest pain points as a daily driver?
- 0des 5y ago
  Please do not take this as me being flippant, but it is also an option to reclaim your independence and not use a smartphone, or any phone at all. Since I started doing this, the effects on myself were as expected, better focus, etc, but the secondary effects on my social circle were unexpected. People take more care to be on time when they say they are meeting me places, no more calls as I arrive saying "oh okay, youre there? Im walking out the door". No more "drive by" social interactions that spawn new storylines and gossip that I dont need to be a part of. What was most unexpected is how, unprompted, a lot of the most ardent phone abusers in my social circle started gradually releasing themselves from their phones, putting them in a drawer, or just outright turning them off for weekends. I have a single prepaid phone that my wife has the number to, it has no apps, no email, no scrolly things. When we are apart, it is turned on, otherwise, my time is otherwise occupied.
  - Mutjake 5y ago
    Thanks, giving it a thought. I might be too in love with tech to go to the deep end, but it’s never a bad idea to consider that option either. I’d need to learn to use a paper calendar and to carry it with me at that point for sure :-)
    - pwython 5y ago
      And go back to reading shampoo bottles on the toilet. :)
      - Mutjake 5y ago
        There’s definitely going to be a market opportunity in publishing the James Joyce’s Ulysses in a limited edition shampoo bottle format. The perfect vanity gift for that special someone who already has everything, but tends to forget their phone when heading to the ministry of magic :-)
huhtenberg 5y ago
Privacy-oriented and what not, but the website still pulls something off googletagmanager.com.
- wedn3sday 5y ago
  Big difference between the business people that want to have site visit numbers for their pitch deck, and the engineering people making the OS. That said, I totally agree that using the most notorious tracking website out there on your landing page for a privacy product is a bad choice.
- mt_ 5y ago
  Just like Apple does, if you can't audit the source code and build it yourself, the use of the keyword "privacy" is just a marketing gimmick.
- notjustanymike 5y ago
  It only pulls Google Analytics, not exactly nefarious software.
  - abcd_f 5y ago
    This is THE tracking implement of them all. “Not exactly nefarious”... bajezus.
- poetaster 5y ago
  You can audit the source. There is very little closed, and that is primarily the android bits. I don't use those.
rado 5y ago
This site is incredibly slow to scroll/render. Closed.
girvo 5y ago
As someone who considers the Nokia N9 the greatest phone ever made, I’d love to pick up an Xperia 10 ii and pay for a license… but apparently because I live in Australia, I’m not authorised? What’s up with that — seems like an odd restriction.
- mpol 5y ago
  It has to do with bureacracy and regulations. Even the UK fell off after the Brexit. The most common advise is to use a VPN or your own VPS to download the free image for trying out and also for buying the license in the shop.
- gardaani 5y ago
  You try to can build it yourself [1] for many devices [2]. [1] https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Sailfish_X_Build_and_Flash https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Sailfish_X_Build_and_Flash [2] https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Adaptations/libhybris https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Adaptations/libhybris
- mempko 5y ago
  Do what some do and use a VPN inside europe to buy your license ;-)
  - ekianjo 5y ago
    but they can then revoke your license anytime?
    - mpol 5y ago
      In all those years I haven't heard of even one situation where this happened. I think the Sailfish X licensing exists since 2017 and many people have gone this route.
      - ekianjo 5y ago
        Thanks for sharing. Maybe I will try it out then.
6d65 5y ago
I was thinking not too long ago about how phones are missing an installable os with a clear business plan. There is the potential(given an unlocked bootloader), to use webusb to allow people flash the OS from an official website. And maybe at a later day allow install from phone to phone via a cable, as a lot of people nowadays don't have a PC. The pricing will be tricky though, $5 per install given a large user base, plus maybe some additional features for sale. That being said, having an OS also means having an appstore, that alone could generate enough revenue to make the OS free. By OS I mean an Android fork or a fuchsia based OS if the license allows it.
- phh 5y ago
  Yup. Considering my Android ROM can reach thousands of various phone models, from 30$ devices to 1000$ deviecs, and I can upgrade devices stuck on 3 years-old Android to latest Android versions, I believe I have a good basis to monetize it. And so far, I haven't seen any path towards monetization. Most people won't give you directly money, unless maybe you target very specific niches, like privacy or FLOSS (And I don't believe I can address either of those). As you mentioned, another possibility is to get revenue through app store (or other revenue sharing sources) possibilites. There is the obvious one, Google Play Store. I simply can't bear Google's bureaucraty, and if I were to try that, I'd have died of old age. Other actors would be much more willingly to discuss to 3rd parties, maybe Aptoide or Amazon Store would be interested? But then, you can't have Google Services, and usage would be much more limited. Also, I believe that the revenue from people out of Amazon Store is much lower than Play Store, because people have less trust towards it (but I could be wrong there). 5$ per install is imo far from enough, because it barely pays for the bandwidth to download OTAs for one year. Unless you mean 5$ per install and per OTA, but I don't like the idea of having the user pay for security upgrades. Also, it lacks an important property to replace revenue sharing, which is adaptability to users' money (if the user has a lot of money, the revenue sharing will give more money, and it's better for reach to still have a place for low income people, notably indian peoples can give you a lot of advertisement "for free" but they don't have much money)
  - 6d65 5y ago
    You have fair points and much more experience than I have in this domain. Yeah, $5 even at a 1M users is probably not that much, having to maintain drivers, and as you mentioned serving updates, that would require a team. With regards to the Google apps, I think a company would be better off trying to make something of their own, or collaborate with some app makers, at least for difficult stuff like maps, camera, gallery, browser(not sure about the paid codecs) As for the app store, I know that's a big project, but that would have to be custom and a core product of the company. Hope you'll eventually find a way to monetize your ROM.
fractallyte 5y ago
I use Sailfish on a Sony Xperia XA2, as well as an iPhone and Android phone. The Sailfish UI far outclasses those other two. It's simple, consistent, and pretty. That's all one can ask for! And it's familiar Linux underneath, with easy access through SSH - no rooting required. This is the phone that everyone else wants, whether they realize it or not... In comparison, I find iOS annoyingly inconsistent and obtuse. Android is straightforward, but feels like a step backward. I just wish Jolla had bigger investors, and more developers. It's really a breath of fresh air in the claustrophobic (and increasingly dystopic) mobile landscape...
- sakebomb 5y ago
  I totally agree with you. It is much easier to use overall. I wish more phone lines would give them a change like Nokia did with the N-series years ago.
- poetaster 5y ago
  Ditto. As an old apple guy i was dumbfounded that ios hadn't picked up anything from meego and on.
- Nition 5y ago
  This may have changed in the last few years, but another thing I really liked back when I ran Sailfish, was how even the third-party apps would use the standard UI assets and look/function exactly like native apps. That and the fact that they were usually open source and ad-free. For instance one I liked was "Solar System"[1]. Since no sane person would make a Sailfish app in order to get rich, Sailfish apps weren't trying to make money. [1] https://github.com/zeburon/sailfish-solarsystem https://github.com/zeburon/sailfish-solarsystem
martini333 5y ago
When a website hijacks the scroll behaviour of the browser, then I'm not interested in what they offer.
- kennydude 5y ago
  Same, it's a horrifically negative and terrible user experience
oriettaxx 5y ago
The official list of supported devices is in https://jolla.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012176974-Sailfish-X-for-which-device-models-is-it-available- https://jolla.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012176974-Sai...
- greyivy 5y ago
  Is Sailfish running on top of Android in this case? I'm a little confused on why Android version is relevant.
  - mempko 5y ago
    Sailfish does not run on top of Android. It is a gnu/linux system with a Qt interface. It has an Android layer called AlienDalvik which runs on top of it. But it also has native apps written in C++/Qt. You can also run FlatPack apps which is interesting. I believe it uses Wayland for it's display server. The Android apps blend pretty seamlessly with the whole experience. For example, the keyboard that pops up in Android apps is the same as the one in that pops up in native apps.
  - marbu 5y ago
    My guess is that Sailfish OS is reusing android device drivers.
    - bitL 5y ago
      It uses AOSP binary blobs published by Sony when installed on Xperias.
  - pedrogpimenta 5y ago
    I don't think so, the model numbers are specified: > Sony Xperia X Single SIM (F5121) > Sony Xperia X Dual SIM (F5122) Get the compact model's number to check.
- muterad_murilax 5y ago
  Xperia X is listed there. Anyone knows if that also includes the Compact model?
cbm-vic-20 5y ago
"the only mobile OS offering an exclusive licensing model for local implementations." What does this mean?
- TingPing 5y ago
  I think they are saying its proprietary and can be licensed. Weird wording to not be obvious its worse than Android licensing?
- ac29 5y ago
  Sounds like they offer regional exclusivity to interested partners: https://sailfishos.org/cases/ https://sailfishos.org/cases/
  - zahllos 5y ago
    Yes, looks like Russia wants to reduce dependence on iOS and Android: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS#Aurora_OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS#Aurora_OS
mempko 5y ago
I've been using Sailfish for years as my daily driver including the the new 4.1 version. Support for Android apps is great. They don't officially sell a license in the US but I am using it in the US. Up until recently it has been fine but with mobile carries now turning off 3G, I can't use for SMS or phone calls in the US anymore (I have AT&T). I am hoping the next version, which is coming out soon, will support VoLTE, but until it does, Sailfish is useless as an actual phone in the USA in the very near future. I am currently tethering my Sony Xperia 10 II with another cheap android phone so I can keep using it outside my house. Yes, I don't want to use iOS or Android that desperately. I enjoy using Sailfish that much.
ekianjo 5y ago
Are licenses still limited to Europe ?
worldsayshi 5y ago
My phone is soon old enough for not getting proper updates. I'd love to switch to Sailfish on it but there are apps that I rely on that doesn't work without Google's Android API. So I guess I will have to buy a new Android which feels very unnecessary and wasteful.
- tristan957 5y ago
  I am not at all familiar with SFOS, but it seems MicroG is available for it.
  - loosescrews 5y ago
    MicroG works and supports most Android apps including most of the official Google apps.
alexandrerond 5y ago
I'm very happy to see that Sailfish keeps shipping because more alternatives are always good. I tried to use it a while ago (Sailfish 3) but was driven off it because of the huge gap between the marketing and the actual reality. The claim that they are privacy and security focused was total bogus (and perhaps someone can comment if it still is). To use the phone features, a Jolla account is needed, so it will "ping home to Jolla". Privacy policy is pretty standard, so they reserve the right to track you all they want and of course, this is tied to your license, payment method etc. So much for privacy focused... What fully drove me off was that they launched full disk "encryption", but the LUKS encryption-key password they used was the user's numeric pin (4-8 digits long). So encryption keys could be bruteforced by a kid and they seemed to be fine with it (I don't know if nowadays it supports a passphrase). Then I also learned that apps in the "app-store" were not signed in any way so impossible to certify that what you are installing is actually coming from the app repository etc. the phone was just lacking basic security all over the place. I hope they are closer now to closing the "gap" between their marketing and the reality.
- Koshkin 5y ago
  Thank you. That fish has sailed for me.
- poetaster 5y ago
  There is still some truth to this. But the os does not phone home like google and apple phones do. Not even close. Package signing is usable but still not widly adopted. App jails are still in beta, since, 4. Luks passphrases are almost ready for noobs. I decided to work on it since it only calls home when you ask. And ui.
- poetaster 5y ago
  Oh, and I don't have to beg apple to sign for me. Signed via play or the apple store means nothing. Signed with my gpg key, sure.
  - 0x000000001 5y ago
    The use of GPG is a red flag for me in anything being developed past 2006. Just stop it already, it's terrible and there are better alternatives
bdcravens 5y ago
Native track pad functionality doesn't work (2-finger swipe to go back). Please stop hijacking native scroll functionality in an attempt for clever designs. You're breaking the web.
poetaster 5y ago
I like SFOS because it has coherent ui and flexible styling. From meego to here guy, though. I actually like the SDK, even if it's a bit stale. I maintain c , js and pytheotherside apps. It's fun over here.
lostgame 5y ago
What's strange is that the very first impression I got from this is that it's OSS - and it's not - which doesn't make it particularly attractive for me as an 'alternative'. Anyone else feel this way?
- loosescrews 5y ago
  It is mostly OSS and can easily be used as a pure OSS solution (perhaps minus some blob drivers from the device manufacturer, but that is true of most Linux distributions with much hardware support). There are some extra features available which require a license, but those are optional and you have to actively acquire a license if you want them. The main features which require a license are: * Android emulation * Predictive text * Microsoft Exchange support in the email application * Support from Jolla https://jolla.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003837053-What-is-Sailfish-X-licence https://jolla.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003837053-Wha...
melony 5y ago
How's Sailfish's UI performance compared to a typical Android flagship?
- bitL 5y ago
  It's smooth. I'd say more smooth than older Androids (<7). Haven't seen any UI hiccups on Xperia 10ii nor Jolla C. Definitely the most polished Linux smartphone experience (outside Android if you still consider that a Linux smartphone and not a tracking device).
ksec 5y ago
If anyone like me have some vague memory of the name Sailfish OS, here from Wiki: >The OS is an evolved continuation of the Linux MeeGo OS previously developed by alliance of Nokia and Intel which itself relies on combined Maemo and Moblin MeeGo. The era when both Nokia and Intel had zero freaking idea about Smartphone. But I am glad Sailfish is still doing great. It has been a long time since the name appeared in any media.
fractalf 5y ago
This is great, I really like sailfish UI, but..... there's just no way it can fight for a real market share, unless.... they go full FOSS, get the huge community behind it to catch momentum. Open it up, and find other ways of making money on it

375 points by nabla9 5y ago

api 5y ago

Why is purchase prohibited from the USA or other countries outside the supported ones? You can get unlocked Android phones and SIM cards just fine. Some tax nonsense?

ch_123 5y ago
That, or patent licensing issues. Since they seem to be positioning themselves as a privacy-oriented OS for governments and businesses, maybe they decided that their market lies elsewhere, and that licensing IP for the US is not worth it.

p4bl0 5y ago

Has anyone experience with Sailfish? Can it run apps like Signal and WhatsApp? Is it stable? I know the website says that it can, but I'm looking for actual user feedback. EDIT: What about the KDE Connect app?

letharion 5y ago
No experience, but the shop (https://shop.jolla.com/ https://shop.jolla.com/ ) claims "Android App Support" so I'd expect you can run most apps.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
memling 5y ago
> Has anyone experience with Sailfish? Can it run apps like Signal and WhatsApp? Is it stable? I ran Sailfish in the 2.x days on an old Moto G Falcon. They did not support Android apps at the time, but recent versions are supposed to.[1] My experience with Sailfish was pretty positive, but I have a high pain tolerance and don't need or want my phone to be more than a phone. (I need it to make calls and handle SMS/MMS. MMS messaging was iffy: reception was fine, but multiparty conversations didn't always thread well. I consider web browsing on the phone a bit of a mixed bag. Tethering is a bonus.) It was pretty. I liked being able to SSH into the phone. I appreciated the easy way to change themes (and that they migrated settings like volume, etc.). It was a slick O/S. Sadly my Falcon died, and I got a burner phone. It's hard to argue with $40 for the phone (KaiOS) and an MVNO that handles my comms on the cheap. I've toyed with the idea of picking up another one that's compatible and flashing the phone--but it looks like it's harder to get the OS onto newer devices these days. [1] https://sailfishos.org https://sailfishos.org
- ryantgtg 5y ago
  I think they did support Android apps at that time, but only on the official devices (which is the same situation as now). I flashed 2.x back then, too, back in the glory days of flashing ubuntu touch and firefox os, etc. I loved the UI of Sailfish. Fatal flaw for me was the inability to group text. As far as I know there is still no group texting. The European users/devs claim this isn’t an issue, because they all use third party messaging apps. I’m glad they’re still developing Sailfish!
c-c-c-c-c 5y ago
I had the original jolla phone. Fun device and great for starting out developing simple apps. Back then they had a 3rd party whatsapp client called mittäkuuluu (litteraly what's up in finnish) in addition to the official one running through the android layer. Since then whatsapp has blocked 3rd party clients and i believe youre not able to run whatsapp on the consumer version of sailfish. Something really cool they had was integration with whatsapp and the facebook messenger with the sms app with contacts synced across the three.
- mpol 5y ago
  There were even two apps, Mittäkuuluu by coderus, and Whatsup from older Symbian and Meego times. Both worked fine and were lovely to use, untill the company Whatsapp sent threatening letters from their lawyers to the developers. Whatsapp also often blocked users using those apps (I had it happen multiple times) and you could reactivate your account if you logged in with the official whatsapp.apk again. A few days later the Sailfish apps were updated and I would switch to one of those again :) So now there is no other option then use the whatsapp.apk, or just not use it and switch completely to Signal.
fractallyte 5y ago
It's my daily driver (on a Sony Xperia XA2). Signal and WhatsApp work perfectly, without any issues.
mpol 5y ago
Yes, the Android layer can run Whatsapp and Signal. I also run Firefox as an apk on it, I use the last v68 version of that. The Android layer is only available on the commercial version, and only on officially supported device. It has been available since 2013 on the original Jolla 1, which was for me the reason to upgrade from a Nokia N9. For me it is stable on my XA2. Though the software is made by a small company and their efforts are spread relatively thin. They don't have thousands of developers working on their mobile OS. For Android apps, the bluetooth stack of Android and Linux/Bluez is different, and the middleware called libhybris does not support offering bluetooth to Android apps. It might come in the future, many people in the community wish it to come available. There are many native apps, and there might not be that much need for all kinds of Android apps. Also, there is talk about offering Android support for community devices, like the Sony Tama devices (high end, small form factor) or Xiaumi devices.
sakebomb 5y ago
I use it a majority of the time. (Seldom need Android for work). It runs Signal just fine, along with all the other chat apps. I enjoy Sailfish very much. I will say that installing the google play store is not a simple click through, but I also don't care for it. A majority of the apps I want don't use google play anyway. I would highly recommend you give it a try for a few weeks and you won't go back.
- ahnick 5y ago
  What do you use for maps/navigation?
  - mpol 5y ago
    Not the parent poster. For maps I use OSM. I have 3 apps installed, Pure Maps, OSMscout and modRana. I don't use navigation, but I understand that with OSM the navigation can be somewhat of a disappointment. There was a native app for Here Maps, but IIRC it was only licensed and available for the Jolla 1. I don't have it installed on my Sony XA2 and I think it's not available either.
    - bitL 5y ago
      I have HERE Maps on Xperia 10 ii, straight from Jolla Store. Maybe it's because I bought their paid package?
- ahmedfromtunis 5y ago
  I'm just curious: when you say "I enjoy Sailfish very much" what does that entail? What does it mean to enjoy an OS. I ask this because I find myself numerous times disappointed: after installing a new OS, there's mostly nothing "new" or outstanding to enjoy other than the few limited different features. After that, it's just the same old terminal and Chrome with the occasional trip to the file browser.
  - mpol 5y ago
    Not the parent poster, but I often say similar things :) For me it's the idea that the software provider thinks privacy is important and I trust them much more than Google or Apple. It's also very close to desktop linux. Root access over ssh is just one checkbox away in the settings. After that I can install any software that is available on Linux, or I can mess about in /etc. The Ambience system is very nice as well. With almost only native apps and a white-on-black ambience, my phone is visually very quiet and not that much distracting. It feels like I own this phone, almost as much as my desktop computer. I am not renting it where someone else has root access and I don't (or I have to fight for it).
poetaster 5y ago
Sigal via whisperfish. In rust!. I'm still on 3.4. Community port. Gigaset gs290. SFOS rocks.
ravenstine 5y ago
On that topic, are there any desktop-oriented Linux distros that support Android apps? Seems like that could fill some gaps in some places where a native Linux app sucks but an Android equivalent would be sufficient. (obviously in a few but perhaps not most cases) Maybe emulation would be needed for most current machines and be really slow, but with more ARM laptops coming in the future it seems like something GNU/Linux would need to do to compete in that space.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  It can be done via Anbox or WayDroid, but additional steps (e.g. via QEMU) are needed to run ARM-based apps on a typical x86 desktop, and performance might be a bit underwhelming.
bitL 5y ago
There is Whisperfish Signal client available on OpenRepos.net, if you don't want to install Android subsystem (I don't): https://openrepos.net/content/rubdos/whisperfish https://openrepos.net/content/rubdos/whisperfish

ognarb 5y ago

Are they still using qt 5.6?

mpol 5y ago
It's complicated :) After Qt 5.6 some important parts were relicensed as GPL. Which means that the Wayland compositor and some other Jolla parts needs to be either GPL (which the main investor is reluctant to do) or Jolla needs to buy a commercial license for Qt (which the main investor is reluctant to do). I understand that the developers at Jolla are ready to flip the switch to a newer Qt and have been for some time, but there is no business decision made yet.
poetaster 5y ago
Yes. But there is progress. The only real suckage is webview & co. I'm ok with lagging a bit, but for web.

AshamedCaptain 5y ago

It has to be said that I find the ties to the Russian government most disturbing for a "privacy"-focused OS, specially after I realized it's not actually OSS. EDIT: Emphasis on the non-OSS part. I couldn't care less as long as it was actually fully open.

smallerfish 5y ago
Can you point to references about Russian gov involvement? I see from the Sailfish page that it's deployed widely in Russia, but Jolla themselves are Finnish (https://jolla.com/about/ https://jolla.com/about/), not exactly the most Russia friendly country around. That their OS is used in Russia isn't the same as it being Russian developed, which it doesn't appear to be(?)
- Raed667 5y ago
  > Russia trusts in Aurora OS > One of the first customers for OMP was Russian Post https://sailfishos.org/cases/ https://sailfishos.org/cases/
  - smallerfish 5y ago
    > The product was soon re-branded to Aurora OS. Aurora OS is an independent, “standalone” product and derivative work of Sailfish OS, and property of Open Mobile Platform LLC. From your link. Is there any evidence of them pushing code back upstream?
    - mpol 5y ago
      Yes, the latest release have seen some code contributions from Aurora. Some well-known people in the community even work for Aurora, like coderus. To be fair, without the Russian investor, there would be no Jolla anymore :)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- 5y ago

woliveirajr 5y ago

> Currently, it is available for Xperia 10 II, Xperia 10, Xperia 10 Plus, single and dual-SIM variants of Sony Xperia XA2, Xperia XA2 Plus, Xperia XA2 Ultra, Sony Xperia X, and Gemini PDA. So, EU-only (and 2 or 3 morecountries) and limited devices.

sakebomb 5y ago
I use it here in the US. As for the devices, the ones you listed are the ones licensed. There are a lot more community ports: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS#Community_enthusiasts'_ports_to_devices_from_other_vendors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS#Community_enthusia...
poetaster 5y ago
I use a gs290 from gigaset. Dirt cheap. Use a community port installed with ubports. Dead simple. Build apps with qt. Qt. Have fun.

Mutjake 5y ago

I wonder if Sailfish or a scrubbed Android (GrapheneOS?) would be worthwhile to give a test run for. Hard passing Apple is going to be painful, but I’m having trouble stomaching the direction where they see implanting end-user devices for LE purposes, so I might need to give it a spin. Any experiences on what would be the biggest pain points as a daily driver?

0des 5y ago
Please do not take this as me being flippant, but it is also an option to reclaim your independence and not use a smartphone, or any phone at all. Since I started doing this, the effects on myself were as expected, better focus, etc, but the secondary effects on my social circle were unexpected. People take more care to be on time when they say they are meeting me places, no more calls as I arrive saying "oh okay, youre there? Im walking out the door". No more "drive by" social interactions that spawn new storylines and gossip that I dont need to be a part of. What was most unexpected is how, unprompted, a lot of the most ardent phone abusers in my social circle started gradually releasing themselves from their phones, putting them in a drawer, or just outright turning them off for weekends. I have a single prepaid phone that my wife has the number to, it has no apps, no email, no scrolly things. When we are apart, it is turned on, otherwise, my time is otherwise occupied.
- Mutjake 5y ago
  Thanks, giving it a thought. I might be too in love with tech to go to the deep end, but it’s never a bad idea to consider that option either. I’d need to learn to use a paper calendar and to carry it with me at that point for sure :-)
  - pwython 5y ago
    And go back to reading shampoo bottles on the toilet. :)
    - Mutjake 5y ago
      There’s definitely going to be a market opportunity in publishing the James Joyce’s Ulysses in a limited edition shampoo bottle format. The perfect vanity gift for that special someone who already has everything, but tends to forget their phone when heading to the ministry of magic :-)

huhtenberg 5y ago

Privacy-oriented and what not, but the website still pulls something off googletagmanager.com.

wedn3sday 5y ago
Big difference between the business people that want to have site visit numbers for their pitch deck, and the engineering people making the OS. That said, I totally agree that using the most notorious tracking website out there on your landing page for a privacy product is a bad choice.
mt_ 5y ago
Just like Apple does, if you can't audit the source code and build it yourself, the use of the keyword "privacy" is just a marketing gimmick.
notjustanymike 5y ago
It only pulls Google Analytics, not exactly nefarious software.
- abcd_f 5y ago
  This is THE tracking implement of them all. “Not exactly nefarious”... bajezus.
poetaster 5y ago
You can audit the source. There is very little closed, and that is primarily the android bits. I don't use those.

rado 5y ago

This site is incredibly slow to scroll/render. Closed.

girvo 5y ago

As someone who considers the Nokia N9 the greatest phone ever made, I’d love to pick up an Xperia 10 ii and pay for a license… but apparently because I live in Australia, I’m not authorised? What’s up with that — seems like an odd restriction.

mpol 5y ago
It has to do with bureacracy and regulations. Even the UK fell off after the Brexit. The most common advise is to use a VPN or your own VPS to download the free image for trying out and also for buying the license in the shop.
gardaani 5y ago
You try to can build it yourself [1] for many devices [2]. [1] https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Sailfish_X_Build_and_Flash https://sailfishos.org/wiki/Sailfish_X_Build_and_Flash [2] https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Adaptations/libhybris https://wiki.merproject.org/wiki/Adaptations/libhybris
mempko 5y ago
Do what some do and use a VPN inside europe to buy your license ;-)
- ekianjo 5y ago
  but they can then revoke your license anytime?
  - mpol 5y ago
    In all those years I haven't heard of even one situation where this happened. I think the Sailfish X licensing exists since 2017 and many people have gone this route.
    - ekianjo 5y ago
      Thanks for sharing. Maybe I will try it out then.

6d65 5y ago

I was thinking not too long ago about how phones are missing an installable os with a clear business plan. There is the potential(given an unlocked bootloader), to use webusb to allow people flash the OS from an official website. And maybe at a later day allow install from phone to phone via a cable, as a lot of people nowadays don't have a PC. The pricing will be tricky though, $5 per install given a large user base, plus maybe some additional features for sale. That being said, having an OS also means having an appstore, that alone could generate enough revenue to make the OS free. By OS I mean an Android fork or a fuchsia based OS if the license allows it.

phh 5y ago
Yup. Considering my Android ROM can reach thousands of various phone models, from 30$ devices to 1000$ deviecs, and I can upgrade devices stuck on 3 years-old Android to latest Android versions, I believe I have a good basis to monetize it. And so far, I haven't seen any path towards monetization. Most people won't give you directly money, unless maybe you target very specific niches, like privacy or FLOSS (And I don't believe I can address either of those). As you mentioned, another possibility is to get revenue through app store (or other revenue sharing sources) possibilites. There is the obvious one, Google Play Store. I simply can't bear Google's bureaucraty, and if I were to try that, I'd have died of old age. Other actors would be much more willingly to discuss to 3rd parties, maybe Aptoide or Amazon Store would be interested? But then, you can't have Google Services, and usage would be much more limited. Also, I believe that the revenue from people out of Amazon Store is much lower than Play Store, because people have less trust towards it (but I could be wrong there). 5$ per install is imo far from enough, because it barely pays for the bandwidth to download OTAs for one year. Unless you mean 5$ per install and per OTA, but I don't like the idea of having the user pay for security upgrades. Also, it lacks an important property to replace revenue sharing, which is adaptability to users' money (if the user has a lot of money, the revenue sharing will give more money, and it's better for reach to still have a place for low income people, notably indian peoples can give you a lot of advertisement "for free" but they don't have much money)
- 6d65 5y ago
  You have fair points and much more experience than I have in this domain. Yeah, $5 even at a 1M users is probably not that much, having to maintain drivers, and as you mentioned serving updates, that would require a team. With regards to the Google apps, I think a company would be better off trying to make something of their own, or collaborate with some app makers, at least for difficult stuff like maps, camera, gallery, browser(not sure about the paid codecs) As for the app store, I know that's a big project, but that would have to be custom and a core product of the company. Hope you'll eventually find a way to monetize your ROM.

fractallyte 5y ago

I use Sailfish on a Sony Xperia XA2, as well as an iPhone and Android phone. The Sailfish UI far outclasses those other two. It's simple, consistent, and pretty. That's all one can ask for! And it's familiar Linux underneath, with easy access through SSH - no rooting required. This is the phone that everyone else wants, whether they realize it or not... In comparison, I find iOS annoyingly inconsistent and obtuse. Android is straightforward, but feels like a step backward. I just wish Jolla had bigger investors, and more developers. It's really a breath of fresh air in the claustrophobic (and increasingly dystopic) mobile landscape...

sakebomb 5y ago
I totally agree with you. It is much easier to use overall. I wish more phone lines would give them a change like Nokia did with the N-series years ago.
poetaster 5y ago
Ditto. As an old apple guy i was dumbfounded that ios hadn't picked up anything from meego and on.
Nition 5y ago
This may have changed in the last few years, but another thing I really liked back when I ran Sailfish, was how even the third-party apps would use the standard UI assets and look/function exactly like native apps. That and the fact that they were usually open source and ad-free. For instance one I liked was "Solar System"[1]. Since no sane person would make a Sailfish app in order to get rich, Sailfish apps weren't trying to make money. [1] https://github.com/zeburon/sailfish-solarsystem https://github.com/zeburon/sailfish-solarsystem

martini333 5y ago

When a website hijacks the scroll behaviour of the browser, then I'm not interested in what they offer.

kennydude 5y ago
Same, it's a horrifically negative and terrible user experience

oriettaxx 5y ago

The official list of supported devices is in https://jolla.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012176974-Sailfish-X-for-which-device-models-is-it-available- https://jolla.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360012176974-Sai...

greyivy 5y ago
Is Sailfish running on top of Android in this case? I'm a little confused on why Android version is relevant.
- mempko 5y ago
  Sailfish does not run on top of Android. It is a gnu/linux system with a Qt interface. It has an Android layer called AlienDalvik which runs on top of it. But it also has native apps written in C++/Qt. You can also run FlatPack apps which is interesting. I believe it uses Wayland for it's display server. The Android apps blend pretty seamlessly with the whole experience. For example, the keyboard that pops up in Android apps is the same as the one in that pops up in native apps.
- marbu 5y ago
  My guess is that Sailfish OS is reusing android device drivers.
  - bitL 5y ago
    It uses AOSP binary blobs published by Sony when installed on Xperias.
- pedrogpimenta 5y ago
  I don't think so, the model numbers are specified: > Sony Xperia X Single SIM (F5121) > Sony Xperia X Dual SIM (F5122) Get the compact model's number to check.
muterad_murilax 5y ago
Xperia X is listed there. Anyone knows if that also includes the Compact model?

cbm-vic-20 5y ago

"the only mobile OS offering an exclusive licensing model for local implementations." What does this mean?

TingPing 5y ago
I think they are saying its proprietary and can be licensed. Weird wording to not be obvious its worse than Android licensing?
ac29 5y ago
Sounds like they offer regional exclusivity to interested partners: https://sailfishos.org/cases/ https://sailfishos.org/cases/
- zahllos 5y ago
  Yes, looks like Russia wants to reduce dependence on iOS and Android: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS#Aurora_OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailfish_OS#Aurora_OS

mempko 5y ago

I've been using Sailfish for years as my daily driver including the the new 4.1 version. Support for Android apps is great. They don't officially sell a license in the US but I am using it in the US. Up until recently it has been fine but with mobile carries now turning off 3G, I can't use for SMS or phone calls in the US anymore (I have AT&T). I am hoping the next version, which is coming out soon, will support VoLTE, but until it does, Sailfish is useless as an actual phone in the USA in the very near future. I am currently tethering my Sony Xperia 10 II with another cheap android phone so I can keep using it outside my house. Yes, I don't want to use iOS or Android that desperately. I enjoy using Sailfish that much.

ekianjo 5y ago

Are licenses still limited to Europe ?

worldsayshi 5y ago

My phone is soon old enough for not getting proper updates. I'd love to switch to Sailfish on it but there are apps that I rely on that doesn't work without Google's Android API. So I guess I will have to buy a new Android which feels very unnecessary and wasteful.

tristan957 5y ago
I am not at all familiar with SFOS, but it seems MicroG is available for it.
- loosescrews 5y ago
  MicroG works and supports most Android apps including most of the official Google apps.

alexandrerond 5y ago

I'm very happy to see that Sailfish keeps shipping because more alternatives are always good. I tried to use it a while ago (Sailfish 3) but was driven off it because of the huge gap between the marketing and the actual reality. The claim that they are privacy and security focused was total bogus (and perhaps someone can comment if it still is). To use the phone features, a Jolla account is needed, so it will "ping home to Jolla". Privacy policy is pretty standard, so they reserve the right to track you all they want and of course, this is tied to your license, payment method etc. So much for privacy focused... What fully drove me off was that they launched full disk "encryption", but the LUKS encryption-key password they used was the user's numeric pin (4-8 digits long). So encryption keys could be bruteforced by a kid and they seemed to be fine with it (I don't know if nowadays it supports a passphrase). Then I also learned that apps in the "app-store" were not signed in any way so impossible to certify that what you are installing is actually coming from the app repository etc. the phone was just lacking basic security all over the place. I hope they are closer now to closing the "gap" between their marketing and the reality.

Koshkin 5y ago
Thank you. That fish has sailed for me.
poetaster 5y ago
There is still some truth to this. But the os does not phone home like google and apple phones do. Not even close. Package signing is usable but still not widly adopted. App jails are still in beta, since, 4. Luks passphrases are almost ready for noobs. I decided to work on it since it only calls home when you ask. And ui.
poetaster 5y ago
Oh, and I don't have to beg apple to sign for me. Signed via play or the apple store means nothing. Signed with my gpg key, sure.
- 0x000000001 5y ago
  The use of GPG is a red flag for me in anything being developed past 2006. Just stop it already, it's terrible and there are better alternatives

bdcravens 5y ago

Native track pad functionality doesn't work (2-finger swipe to go back). Please stop hijacking native scroll functionality in an attempt for clever designs. You're breaking the web.

poetaster 5y ago

I like SFOS because it has coherent ui and flexible styling. From meego to here guy, though. I actually like the SDK, even if it's a bit stale. I maintain c , js and pytheotherside apps. It's fun over here.

lostgame 5y ago

What's strange is that the very first impression I got from this is that it's OSS - and it's not - which doesn't make it particularly attractive for me as an 'alternative'. Anyone else feel this way?

loosescrews 5y ago
It is mostly OSS and can easily be used as a pure OSS solution (perhaps minus some blob drivers from the device manufacturer, but that is true of most Linux distributions with much hardware support). There are some extra features available which require a license, but those are optional and you have to actively acquire a license if you want them. The main features which require a license are: * Android emulation * Predictive text * Microsoft Exchange support in the email application * Support from Jolla https://jolla.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003837053-What-is-Sailfish-X-licence https://jolla.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003837053-Wha...

melony 5y ago

How's Sailfish's UI performance compared to a typical Android flagship?

bitL 5y ago
It's smooth. I'd say more smooth than older Androids (<7). Haven't seen any UI hiccups on Xperia 10ii nor Jolla C. Definitely the most polished Linux smartphone experience (outside Android if you still consider that a Linux smartphone and not a tracking device).

ksec 5y ago

If anyone like me have some vague memory of the name Sailfish OS, here from Wiki: >The OS is an evolved continuation of the Linux MeeGo OS previously developed by alliance of Nokia and Intel which itself relies on combined Maemo and Moblin MeeGo. The era when both Nokia and Intel had zero freaking idea about Smartphone. But I am glad Sailfish is still doing great. It has been a long time since the name appeared in any media.

fractalf 5y ago

This is great, I really like sailfish UI, but..... there's just no way it can fight for a real market share, unless.... they go full FOSS, get the huge community behind it to catch momentum. Open it up, and find other ways of making money on it