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People look at me funny when I say I hope gas prices go up. It’s just basic economics - we’re running up ruinous externality debt, so just about anything that p
by gbrown 5y ago
People look at me funny when I say I hope gas prices go up. It’s just basic economics - we’re running up ruinous externality debt, so just about anything that pushes us towards sustainability is good.
There should be some incentive not to drive an F350 to an office job…
- shiftpgdn 5y agoA diesel f350’s fuel consumption is only marginally less than a Subaru Outback or WRX.
- et2o 5y agoThe EPA does not even produce fuel economy estimates for vehicles as large as the F-350, but data I can find gives about 13-14 mpg in real world use, perhaps about 20 mpg on the highway in ideal circumstances. Meanwhile the 2021 Outback (which is not particularly fuel efficient) is EPA rated at 26 city/33 highway, which is significantly better.
- shiftpgdn 5y agoDiesel f250/350s realistically get around 17-20mpg unloaded.
- kasey_junk 5y agoA WRX has a combined mpg score of ~23mpg. So even the worst case scenario (a tuner car) and the best average you provide (20mpg) we see that the WRX get takes 4.3 gallons to go 100 miles while the f350 takes 5. The ridiculous tuner car is 15% more efficient than the _unloaded_ f350 with the most efficient drive train. Thats a pretty big deal.
- epistasis 5y agoWhen you add in that diesel emits 13% more CO2 per gallon than gasoline, that's not even close, the f250/f350 is emitting at least 75% more CO2 per mile.
- et2o 5y agohttps://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/f-350_super_duty/2021?engineconfig_id=300&bodytype_id=&submodel_id= https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/f-350_super_duty/2021?engine... Not sure about that
- rasz 5y agoyou misspelled 14 https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/f-350_super_duty?engineconfig_id=300&bodytype_id=&submodel_id= https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/f-350_super_duty?engineconfi... and 2x worse https://www.fuelly.com/car/subaru/wrx https://www.fuelly.com/car/subaru/wrx
- driverdan 5y agoI'm not sure why you're being downvoted. Diesel pickups tend to get high teens unloaded, depending how they're driven. Mine gets around 20mpg on the highway.
- wffurr 5y agoWhich are themselves not especially fuel efficient compared to the Impreza much less a hybrid or efficient compact sedan.
- madengr 5y agoDiesel is more energy dense, so better to compare it to a VW TDI of 40+ MPG. You are still hauling around all that weight. I have always wanted a VW (Rabbit) pickup. I don’t know why there are no diesel-electric trucks. If you need torque, do what trains do.
- nradov 5y agoCustomer reported data for current model Ford F-350 diesels shows about 12 - 13 mpg. https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/f-350_super_duty?engineconfig_id=300&bodytype_id=&submodel_id= https://www.fuelly.com/car/ford/f-350_super_duty?engineconfi... Subaru Outback is about 23 mpg. https://www.fuelly.com/car/subaru/outback?engineconfig_id=866&bodytype_id=&submodel_id= https://www.fuelly.com/car/subaru/outback?engineconfig_id=86... Of course those are self selected samples and not independent tests, but still probably close to what most drivers will see in the real world.
- Spooky23 5y agoI drove one for a few years… I recall 14 mpg. But it wasn’t a commuter vehicle, and I’m not an idiot burning smoke like many buyers of fancy F350s. Usually the consumer midsize crossover nets out around 20.
- gbrown 5y ago…which is not remotely relevant to the actual point I was making.
- tejohnso 5y agoI'm with you. I've been saying "gas is too cheap", half joking, for years. That's just based off of watching people's use of their vehicles, having not the slightest concern for gasoline cost. It's not even considered in the list of tradeoffs when making plans. I think it should be expensive enough so that at least a median income person making a completely frivolous trip stops for half a second to consider the cost. I'm sure it's more complicated than that. Lower income folks who have less of a choice, for example. A real policy would take some work.
- Noumenon72 5y agoIf you could designate a certain trip as your commute and kids' school and get reimbursed for the tax on that, it would fix some of the distributional effects.
- nradov 5y agoThe best approach would be to gradually phase in a revenue neutral carbon tax where an equal amount of money is rebated to everyone. That way those who use less fuel than average would end up financially net positive.
- sandworm101 5y agoExcept that the people who use the most fuel are not the most wealthy. People in rural or low cost areas who need to commute. People who work shifts at odd hours. Trades who need to carry tools. The people who buy the least gas are those who can work from home and drive a Tesla: rich people. They don't need more money.
- philipkglass 5y agoThis is cherry picking examples from different income bands. We know that people in higher income bands consume more fossil fuels per capita, on average. They would therefore pay more carbon tax. I would guess that Tesla owning households still have higher than average fossil consumption at present because their higher incomes also positively correlate with flying more and consuming more goods that were at least partially made with fossil fuels. The very poorest people in the US can't afford to drive even a used car.
- winphone1974 5y agoYou should do a little research, we're taking about natural gas not gasoline. The supply, demand and price are only loosely connected and nobody drives an F350 powered by natural gas. Natural gas predominately displaces coal, so you must really hate the earth.
- jacquesm 5y ago> nobody drives an F350 powered by natural gas https://www.fleetequipmentmag.com/fords-cng-propane-trucks/ https://www.fleetequipmentmag.com/fords-cng-propane-trucks/
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoStatistically nobody, literally nobody, potato, potato.
- jacquesm 5y agoAnd ... you're wrong. In retail the majority is gasoline and diesel for the really heavy applications, but fleets of carbon emissions conscious companies buy the LNG version. In total some 50 K over the last decade. Maybe that's statistically nobody to you but it's a lot more than zero and besides that you're engaging in goal post moving. Same with other classes of vehicles such as VW vans in the passenger version, the 'normal' ones are all diesel, the fleet version tends to be bi-fuel with a relatively small petrol engine and an LNG underbody tank system. This is a popular solution for taxi fleets in Europe. And as diesel is coming more and more under scrutiny you can expect the LNG/CNG version of these cars to gain in popularity.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago>but fleets of carbon emissions conscious companies buy the LNG version A rounding error compared to all the other trucks/vans/commercial vehicles. Go look for CNG vehicles from pickups and airport vans on up to heavy trucks on the heavy equipment section of CL and machinery trader. You will see how few and far between they are.
- jacquesm 5y agoThe better solution would be to perform that job from home rather than to drive something smaller or use public transport. Our addiction to insane levels of mobility is one of our biggest problems.
- biomcgary 5y agoHave you ever seen any calculations about changes in energy usage patterns and environmental impact if all jobs that could be made remote were converted? It would definitely reduce commuting costs, but would also lead to more energy use in residential sectors (e.g., cooling). It seems almost guaranteed to be a net win environmentally.
- jacquesm 5y agoNo, but I'd definitely be interested to read them, I do recall some mentions of COVID-19 related reduction in smog and other pollution from the beginning of the pandemic.
- throwawaysea 5y agoMobility is very much related to notions of freedom and quality of life. I can see the argument for doing away with unnecessary in-person work and commutes, as an optimization. But we live to experience life, not to only participate in a fixed set of local activities approved by the state. Motor vehicles are a big part of many people’s lives for enabling leisure activities, without which life is very limited. Committed urbanists, like those who are content with NYC as their entire world, may have trouble seeing this. But I feel a majority of people want and need mobility beyond what walking, biking, and fixed transit routes can offer.
- papito 5y agoF150 is going electric, so at least men will be able to suggest their penis sizes in a sustainable manner. Still, what a waste of raw natural resources and materials.
- mrlonglong 5y agoUm, OP was talking about natural gas, not this gas stuff that's used in automobiles, but your point still stands.
- gbrown 5y agoUm, yeah, I got that, but they’re both carbon energy sources directly used by customers.
- manuelmagic 5y agoIf oil prices go up then cracking is a bargain again, so... it's not the solution towards renewables.
- gbrown 5y agoOil prices != gas prices. I’m talking taxes.