27 ms·

Scientist says cleaning indoor air could make us healthier and smarter

476 points by sohkamyung 5y ago

icelancer 5y ago
Been saying this since the onset. Vaccinations were never going to be 70%+ in this country. How many people get flu vaccines and other ones that are non-compulsory? We needed a solution with many different approaches to cover many ways to combat the problem. Cheap box fans + 20x20 filters work wonders. I bought 30 for my place of work as well as jerry-rigged UVC lamps in enclosed boxes. That, combined with high vaccination rates through paying employees 0.5 days PTO if they opt for vaccination (and other common sense policies like distancing, copper-taped door handles, and improved general airflow), has led to 5 outdoor COVID cases coming into work with zero community spread.
maxexcloo 5y ago
Question as an aside, does anyone here have experience with indoor air quality meters? I've had a hard time finding some good recommendations for something reasonably accurate and not too expensive...
- jfim 5y ago
  It's a bit tricky, because one of the most expensive parts of an air quality meter appears to be the CO2 sensor. Less expensive sensors approximate CO2 concentration (it's referred to as "eCO2") and can be wildly off due to the way they sense gas concentrations. If you have the equipment to make electronics at home and are willing to DIY, it can be done for less than $100 and will be comparable to an off the shelf unit.
- bsilvereagle 5y ago
  I’m partial to the no-name monitor described here since all the sensors are removable and can be moved into a DIY unit if it breaks. The sensors used are the same parts used in big brand monitors. It also helps that the processor is unlocked and custom firmware can be cooked up: https://frdmtoplay.com/patching-in-fahrenheit/ https://frdmtoplay.com/patching-in-fahrenheit/
- andreyf 5y ago
  Those are subjective but there's a good paper on accuracy here https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360132320307836# https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S036013232...! tldr for CO2 best is https://www.kaiterra.com/en/laser-egg-co2 https://www.kaiterra.com/en/laser-egg-co2
fighterpilot 5y ago
Do they look at the relative contribution between CO2 and VOCs? These two require very different solutions. The first is about ventilation in closed spaces, and the second can be solved with only a $300 air purifier. EDIT: Here is the original study: https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1510037 https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1510037 I really don't understand their methods pertaining to VOCs. Maybe someone can fill me in. Their method pertaining to CO2 seems straightforward.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- gilgoomesh 5y ago
  They didn't clean the air. Their methods were to inject air of different concentrations. As stated in the article, the best approach to cleaning CO2 and VOCs is increasing the flow of outside air into closed spaces. The headline involving the word "cleaning" is misleading since it should not be your first choice unless outside air quality is poor.
girishso 5y ago
The pessimist in me likes to think this article is sponsored by the air purifier lobby. Healthier I can understand, but smarter? How do they prove smartness?
- IntrepidWorm 5y ago
  >In the first study, published in 2015, they had 24 white-collar volunteers spend six working days in environmentally controlled office spaces at Syracuse University’s Total Indoor Environmental Quality Laboratory. On various days the experimenters would alter ventilation rates and levels of CO2 and VOCs. Each afternoon the volunteers were tested on their ability to think analytically and react to a crisis. (One test, for example put the volunteer in the role of a small-town mayor trying to react to an emergency.) All tests were double-blind: Neither the volunteers nor the study personnel knew that day’s environmental conditions. Cognitive testing (detailed above) was used to test "smartness." I am, however, similarly pessimistic.
- loonster 5y ago
  It seemed like a huge fluff article for a "science" mag. I felt like I had to scroll a significant amount to get passed the bio. If anything it was sponsored by HVAC. Heat recovery ventilation units are expensive. (Would have one if a new house. Harder to justify for retrofit.)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  There's a lot of evidence that people perform worse on intellectual tasks at high CO2 and VOC levels.
  - inter_netuser 5y ago
    to be precise: we perform worse in conditions dramatically different from our natural habitat. Fish also can't breathe on land, despite much higher concentrations of oxygen. What does that mean? Those studies are often mis-used as doom porn fodder, and are really only useful for occupational limits and employment liability, not some future forecasts for the next few centuries. The only constant thing about climate is that its constantly changes, and large fluctuations have happened many times in the past, and mammals survived. Some of the dinosaurs that survived (birds) even developed a whole different type of super efficient hemoglobin, and if CO2 keeps going up - so will we. Some people already retain large amounts of fetal hemoglobin, maybe that's the way? At any rate, the best view on climate change I've read online: http://timtyler.org/end_the_ice_age/ http://timtyler.org/end_the_ice_age/
mensetmanusman 5y ago
I’ve been harping on this since learning covid was aerosol based early 2020. I like to tell new parents a trick that worked well for us: use a nice filter-based air purifier for white noise. It has deep bass, and it keeps the air near the child extremely clean. We have been doing this for our kids for almost 10 years now since birth. A fun experiment for kids: if you have a laser pointer, shine it close to the ground indoors and kick up dust near the floor. If you see any light in the air, that is all stuff you are breathing in (works really well on carpet)… Air quality associated with: Alzheimers: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-new-alzheimers-air-pollution-link/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-new-alzheimer... Cancers, plural: https://www.aacr.org/patients-caregivers/progress-against-cancer/air-pollution-associated-cancer/ https://www.aacr.org/patients-caregivers/progress-against-ca... Sperm Quality: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4443398/#sec99552title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4443398/#sec995... Female Fertility: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2207560-exposure-to-air-pollution-seems-to-negatively-affect-womens-fertility/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2207560-exposure-to-air... Autism: https://www.sciencealert.com/particulate-matter-in-air-pollution-raises-autism-risks-in-the-first-few-years https://www.sciencealert.com/particulate-matter-in-air-pollu... Bipolar/Depression: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/air-pollution-linked-to-bipolar-disorder-depression https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/air-p...
- LegitShady 5y ago
  recently replaced a robot vacuum with a corded plugin model with 3x the suction power and the amount of dust it removed from carpets already 'clean' by the robovac was pretty incredible. I have the robot vacuum still doing its thing every other day but at least once a week I do a deep clean and it removes a ton of dust. I also have a HEPA filter air purifier going 24 hours. Carpets are the worst.
  - tehnub 5y ago
    Maybe the carpet acts as a filter for dust that you would otherwise be breathing?
robertwt7 5y ago
I've been wanting to buy an air purifier but not sure if it is a necessary buy or not. Before spending another 200-300$ for some stuff that I usually find reason to spend on, I need to know if it makes a huge difference from day to day basis. This article definitely supports it, however has anyone actually ever felt that much difference after getting their purifier?
- vpj 5y ago
  Bought one about a week ago, because of similar research studies. I don't notice anything different. I use it in the bedroom when sleeping. May be my air quality was already pretty good. I will check the status of the filter after a few weeks to see how much purifying it had to do.
  - robertwt7 5y ago
    Do you feel any slight difference on your breath, health, body at all? Something worth noticing?
    - qw3rty01 5y ago
      You probably won't notice a difference unless you have allergies, or there's some other issue causing abnormally high amounts of VOCs to be in the air (such as mold or dust)
    - vpj 5y ago
      Nothing
- jjeaff 5y ago
  Get a $20 box fan and slap a house intake HEPA filter replacement on the back of it. It will do just as well if not better than an expensive HEPA filter. If it makes a difference and you want something that sounds different or has some extra features, then you could get a nicer one.
  - chris_va 5y ago
dbish 5y ago
I bought a few co2 and voc detectors and air purifiers to try and help with this. Air purifiers are useful during pollen season and for dust not sure anything else. The co2 detectors were actually great for knowing when to open the door or window in my office or living room
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  Which brand of detector?
  - dbish 5y ago
    Awair Element. Looks nice enough to keep on a shelf too
- breput 5y ago
  Do you see consistency between your CO2 detectors? Early on in the pandemic when I started working at home, I became very cognizant about the impact of CO2 and built a little project with a microcontroller and the MHZ-19B CO2 sensor. Calibrating the sensor is an ongoing challenge and while I have 18 months of data, I'm still not 100% confident about the accuracy of the data at any given time. Still...I literally can feel when the CO2 level is above 800 - 1000ppm and it isn't always as easy as opening a window to counteract. There are certain conditions - maybe the barometric pressure or temperature gradient, but sometimes forced ventilation is necessary to get into the "comfortable" 400-600ppm range.
  - dbish 5y ago
    They seem accurate within 100ppm or so which is enough to give me the information I need. Looking at their specs their claim is 75ppm https://support.getawair.com/hc/en-us/articles/360060843933-What-is-the-Technical-Accuracy-of-Awair-Element-Sensors- https://support.getawair.com/hc/en-us/articles/360060843933-...
    - breput 5y ago
      Yeah, that is more than adequate. When I posted my project online I got the not-unexpected feedback that the sensor was hard to calibrate. I don't care about 400 vs. 600 ppm. I do care about 600 ppm vs. 1600 ppm.
fabianhjr 5y ago
I have felt way better with a HEPA-filter in my room and better ventilation. (Also got a vacum-mop-robot that reduced dust a lot by vacumming and mopping daily my main working area and bedroom)
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  I was thinking about a home setup. Opening the window lets in VOCs from outside, which the HEPA-filter is supposed to clean up. Seems a bit counterproductive or self-defeating, no? A more proper setup that you'd find in an office building is probably too expensive for home.
  - fabianhjr 5y ago
    I open the back windows not the street facing ones
    - fighterpilot 5y ago
      Sure, but I just wonder about the effectiveness of a filter when we do that. If all of the air in the room is completely replaced with air from outside via the open window, then what does the filter achieve? It seems that there's a trade-off between lowering CO2 and lowering VOCs.
      - fabianhjr 5y ago
        Not all, just the rate has te be somewhat balanced, there is definitely a breeze and the air filter helps mostly with PM and indoor sources.
  - hollerith 5y ago
    HEPA removes only particulates, not VOCs and not CO2.
oneplane 5y ago
"Scientist says" - okay, that's not very useful, which scientist? What science? What research? What's it being backed by? What money flows are behind it? What's the conflict of interest report? Any time a headline says "scientists say" that's just some sort of crappy marketing signal, not actually a useful thing to put in your headline because those words in that way lost their value. It used to be that a scientist was someone who was an actual scientist, applying scientific principles and having an accredited master or maybe even doctorate. And then it also wasn't "they said" but "published" or "reported" or "found evidence of". In this case it happens to be: - Joseph Allen - runs a major public health research project at Harvard University (Associate Professor) - consults with companies on ventilation and air filtration - writing dozens of op-eds - washed out as an FBI recruit - doctoral thesis at the Boston University School of Public Health - a bunch of Director, Co-Director, Deputy Director, Commissioner, Chair, Advisory Group things - Has a bunch of publications which has his name on it, but also a billion other names, and as far as I know people tend to stick on a bunch of names that didn't actually 'do the work', but simply were guiding tutor style personal advisors. The Boston thing seems to be: > We used personal air samplers to measure indoor air exposure to polybrominated diphenyl ethers (PBDEs) for 20 residents of the Greater Boston Area (Massachusetts). Area air measures were simultaneously collected from two rooms in each participant's home. So the entirety of what's visible on the surface doesn't tell me much, except: - Does a lot of management type of thing - No quantitative hard science, just low sample sized tests - Mostly busy being 'visible' (be it marketing or talking head for a group that did the actual science) Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "this person is bad, this advice is bad, and there is nothing here to support any of this". I am saying that some magazine headline with a "scientist says" just doesn't have a lot of meaning. This guy might very well know his stuff, but it's pretty hard to derive that from whatever is published in magazines and sites. At the same time it seems somewhat obvious that if we, as mankind, go and modify the air we live in by constructing boxes to live and work in with minimal airflow (be it cycling or fresh air replacement) that you would normally have done by general weather patterns and nature, we're probably not going to be better for it. That doesn't mean we need a company to invent an 'outdoor air simulator' to buy, but it might mean that having a well-sealed building requires some compensating features (be it air replacement/flow from outside, or some other method like strategic vents that make use of differences in airflow speeds around the building). Making sure that you don't collect a lot of particulate matter and just floats through the air all the time has an impact. (or, as others have posted: cleaning up your durst and mopping) Measuring your air quality can give you an idea if what you are doing is making things worse or better (i.e. if you have forced-air AC and you turn it on, you can probably see CO2 levels either rise or drop, same as when you have air vents or windows to the outside you can open - requires the air outside to be reasonable of course).
tylorr 5y ago
Keeping an air purifier running efficiently requires me to keep all the windows closed which negatively effects the temperature in my apartment. Is it worth the trade off?
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  Without ventilation, you are increasing CO2 to over 1000 ppm doing that, which as the study points out is bad in itself.
  - tehnub 5y ago
    I was wondering about similar things a while back. I don't know if there are any easy options, but if you were, say, looking to do a custom house build, it seems that a passive house with mechanical ventilation heat recovery (MVHR), or alternatively a positive pressure system, would be ideal for indoor air quality. In either case you are getting a steady supply of purified, low-CO2 air to breathe.
- marricks 5y ago
  Keeping plants in your house reduces CO2 levels and removes pollutants, perhaps try that. - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32170619/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32170619/ - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1360138518300463 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13601...
zz865 5y ago
It doesn't make sense to me - I'd think we all get enough oxygen even in stale air. Is there any hypothetical reason why they'd think it would make you healthier or smarter?
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  Throughout our evolutionary history, we were breathing in air with about 300 ppm of CO2. What makes you think everything will be perfect with our bodies and brains if we jack that up to 1000 ppm?
  - inter_netuser 5y ago
    If you are indoors you are likely breathing 1000ppm already. Some large cities already at 900ppm. So, absolutely nothing? OSHA limits on CO2, might be useful: https://www.fsis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media_file/2020-08/Carbon-Dioxide.pdf https://www.fsis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media_file/202...
    - fighterpilot 5y ago
      > If you are indoors you are likely breathing 1000ppm already. Not if you have ventilation or leave the window open. > Some large cities already at 900ppm. Which ones? I read online that New York can go up to 500 ppm and Shanghai up to 550 ppm. > OSHA limits on CO2, might be useful I find it very plausible that higher order cognition is the first thing to be negatively impacted, before macro-level symptoms like headaches or drowsiness start manifesting at 10,000+ ppm.
      - inter_netuser 5y ago
        https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17100666/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17100666/ 1000pm in Shanghai classrooms, windows open: "The air exchange rate was 2.9-29.4 ac/h (mean 9.1), because of window opening. Mean CO2 exceeded 1000 ppm in 45% of the classrooms." 1000pm is a non-event. Life survived multiple extinction-level asteroid impacts. We've adapted to much worse in the past. At the worst, people will have indoor/car CO2-removers, just like you cannot really survive without an AC everywhere in Middle East (or Arizona) today. Maybe we'll just have to get some more indoor plants.
forgotmypw17 5y ago
You can go a long way by just not polluting your own house with VOCs, as mentioned in other comments here. Basically, you have to abstain from most "cleaning" products, new furniture, and ... something else, I think?
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  Wait, what's the thing with cleaning products? Do dish detergents and surface cleaners create VOCs?
  - Sunspark 5y ago
    A lot of people like to use "fabric softeners" that are heavily fragranced, and they also like to purchase plug-in oil wick "air fresheners" that soak into every porous surface as well as your lungs. This is in addition to the regular stuff. So it's not just VOCs anymore, but also HAPs--hazardous air pollutants. Example, those clip-in auto air vent air fresheners that people buy for their cars. Spend 20 minutes in that person's car, notice how the next day your clothing still smells strongly of the oil-based air freshener. You were also inhaling that. And this is somehow perfectly fine?
- binkHN 5y ago
  I use an air monitor from Awair. Every time I cook at home, the VOCs go up tremendously. Should I stop cooking?
  - MengerSponge 5y ago
    You should use a range hood, or you should have much better kitchen ventilation.
    - binkHN 5y ago
      I have a range hood. I haven't compared the VOCs when using it or not, but I can tell you they are rather high even with it.
cenophor 5y ago
This reeks like a con-artists rephrasing perfectly normal and mundane observations into scary-sounding situations so that people would buy the air-filter companies that are funding your research. I'm all for cleaner air and I don't doubt that the already well-established negative effects of high CO2 or VOC concentrations on us, but can we at least keep any discussion to non-anecdotal, strong scientific evidence? None the articles linked both here show any rigorous statistics that pinpoint cause and effects, it's all handwavy conjectures with "common sense" evidence and statistical dressing to show correlation. Correlation doesn't even necessarily mean causality. Some of the articles even have *may" in the title, you can be the judge. Probably an unpopular opinion given the large amount of anecdotal science already posted. Dust on carpet is bad and particularly if you don't clean it and let stuff grow - we all know that already and we don't need a laser pointer to show kids how scary it is. Just because you can see it doesn't necessarily mean it's worse, and just because you can't see it doesn't necessarily mean it's better. It's just insanity that everyone is suddenly a scientists with a few anecdotes or links to articles that show correlation but not causality.
- paul7986 5y ago
  Yes media is bought and paid for and is the boogeyman. Tuned it out May 2020 and get my news like for Covid directly from friends working in hospitals (docs, nurses, admins, etc) in various cities.
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  How can it not be causality when it's a double-blind intervention? This isn't an epidemiological study that is merely observing correlations in the wild. https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1510037 https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1510037
  - criticaltinker 5y ago
    > How can it not be causality when it's a double-blind intervention? The design of the study looks solid and results are certainly statistically significant. With N=24 and the limitations quoted below, I think it's fair to take these results with a grain of skepticism. But on balance, I found the criticism in GP's comment to be a little over the top. - "By testing on subsequent days, it is possible that effects from one condition were reflected in the scores obtained on the next day." - "The environmental factors that were not experimentally modified exhibited some variability owing to changes in outdoor conditions and participant behavior." - "This study used a controlled environment to individually control certain contaminants. Assessments performed in actual office environments are important to confirm the findings in a noncontrolled setting."
EGreg 5y ago
Conversely, at present rates, the CO2 in the atmosphere can approach a stuffy room in the future, making us have to actually run oxygen purifiers indoors to remain smart. https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/carbon-dioxide/ https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/carbon-dioxide/ whereas this is what humans can handle: https://www.kane.co.uk/knowledge-centre/what-are-safe-levels-of-co-and-co2-in-rooms https://www.kane.co.uk/knowledge-centre/what-are-safe-levels... Current value: 417 ppm With ocean acidification, acid rain, etc. it's not just about "global warming".
- elevenoh 5y ago
  This is quite an interesting phenomenon unfolding. Those with high-CO2 performant genetics may have better cognitive development in the future. (Also, it's sad to see kids wearing masks all day with zero regard for the science on CO2 concentration & health).
  - EGreg 5y ago
    I am sad to see kids eating genetically modified food sith high fructose corn syrup, products from cows with antibiotics, and so on, getting diabetes and obesity at a young age, and being addicted to screens And this is correlated to the morbidity from the actual virus The USA and its factory farmed agriculture industry doesn’t really care about the public health outcomes. They care about cheaper hamburgers and industrial level farming. For-profit industries often have to do it. The same way that so much ink has been spilled about the exodus of people from big cities during the pandemic, in a “ha ha too much socialism” way, but very little about the decade of slowly emptying small towns across America, from the rust belt to the mining towns. None of these political pundits care to talk about the slow plight of the little guy. The situation before the pandemic saw half of all employed Americans living paycheck to paycheck, very low savings, while the government doubled down on trickle down economics.
  - andreyf 5y ago
    Which science do you mean? Found a redacted study from Germany and doctors saying there's no effect on blood O2 or CO2 levels https://uihc.org/health-topics/do-face-masks-make-you-retain-carbon-dioxide https://uihc.org/health-topics/do-face-masks-make-you-retain...
MavropaliasG 5y ago
Just open the window
- divbzero 5y ago
  I’ve bought air filters and detectors to protect against wildfire smoke. “Just open the window” is actually pretty good advice in most (non-wildfire) times. My indoor air quality improves sharply as soon as let in an outdoor breeze.
  - r00fus 5y ago
    I installed a whole-house fan [1] when AQI outside is good (especially during fire season) - usually early mornings or late evenings - outside air, despite being somewhat dirty is often better than stale indoor air. We do this every day even when it's cold outside for at least 15m. In summer sometimes we leave on the "low" setting all night instead of running the AC. [1] https://www.hoffmannbros.com/electrical/whole-house-fans/how-it-works https://www.hoffmannbros.com/electrical/whole-house-fans/how...
- breput 5y ago
  Without adequate measurements, you would be surprised how wrong your advice is. If there are wildfires anywhere upwind, you're better off (barely) with the windows shut and recirculating the air through the furnace filter.
wolverine876 5y ago
This sentence raises questions for me: > Allen came to see businesspeople as natural allies who could act on his public health findings faster than government officials. When I see a cliched narrative or meme, I suspect it that's its only basis - reality doesn't match the memes so neatly - and also this one benefits their busines partners. Also, why aren't public health officials acting? When I see someone say they are too slow, IME it's usually because their claims aren't sufficiently substantiated. Accelerating approval and reducing government oversight hasn't had great results.
XorNot 5y ago
My big problem right now is adding a filtered fresh-air intake to my house. CO2 in my rooms spikes when working at home and above 600 is cognitive impairment and you definitely feel it (I'm pretty sure meetings which go off the rails at work have this problem too - I really need a wearable monitor so I can cancel them when it starts happening). The thing is I also need to do heat recovery, and since it's Australia, I definitely want to be able to do a filtered air overpressure in winter.
- teruakohatu 5y ago
  Just open a window a crack. The CO2 drops rapidly. The problem with ultra insulated homes are that C02 and moisture get trapped. So then you need filtered fresh air, and then heat recovery.
  - XorNot 5y ago
    My windows face the street - and that's the issue, heat loss in winter is a big deal. And I have to actively monitor in order to know I should do it - this isn't something you really think about, and its terrible when you're in the flow while working. There's also other reasons - for example I want to ensure the flow of air through the house concentrates and exits via the bathrooms and kitchen.
  - breput 5y ago
    It isn't quite that easy. Even if there aren't impediments to opening a window a crack, it is not guaranteed that passive measures will reduce CO2 levels. I've been tracking my home office's CO2 level for about a year and a half and obviously opening a window helps, but there are certain conditions (pressure, temperature, wind?) that require fans to normalize the levels.
  - nsporillo 5y ago
    Heat Recovery Ventilators can be used to address the moisture issue
cmurf 5y ago
I believe it will become necessary sooner than we imagine. 32 continuous days of air pollution warnings in Denver this summer (ozone and smoke). This comes with a recommendation to not drive unless you have a zero emission vehicle. It's bad enough I'm not running or biking much at all or I end up coughing for hours afterward, and have itchy eyes. It's terrible.
MattGaiser 5y ago
When is there going to be the Apple for houses? I want to buy a house that incorporates all this research and thought.
offsky 5y ago
If we can’t open a window because the outdoor air quality is poor (polluted city) how can we reduce indoor CO2?
- bsilvereagle 5y ago
  There are a growing number of companies selling algae-based CO2 scrubbers. You grow algae and force air to bubble through it. When the algae fully grows you can harvest it to eat or compost. However, you need to really run the numbers to see if the particular volume of algae is sufficient to clean the levels of CO2 you’d like to. In my case, I’d need ~20 of these to negate the CO2 generation in the space. https://algenair.com/ https://algenair.com/
  - andreyf 5y ago
    and if you don't want to spend $250, the DIY version seems pretty easy, too: https://www.greenhousetoday.com/growing-spirulina/ https://www.greenhousetoday.com/growing-spirulina/
thewhitetulip 5y ago
Any plants that purify air? I've read online about the NASA study that says Snake plant purify air but then I read that there wasn't really a conclusive end to that study. And that it's all mis information I am not comfortable with an air filter at home so am searching for anything apart from that
- euroderf 5y ago
  There are plants that are pretty good at removing VOCs. I think spider plants were a winner.
- akaralar 5y ago
  yep, check this 4 min video https://www.ted.com/talks/kamal_meattle_how_to_grow_fresh_air https://www.ted.com/talks/kamal_meattle_how_to_grow_fresh_ai...
hourislate 5y ago
I have 5 20 x 20 box fans running 24/7/365 with Merv 13 HEPA filters placed against the back (held on by the fans suction). The whole house has Merv 12 HEPA filtration through forced air system. The air in the house is incredibly clean, to the point where after working from home and not going out much for the last 1.5 years, I am finding that I'm way more sensitive to allergens outside. Otherwise there is almost zero dust, the house has no odor, and there is a nice hum that drowns out outside noise and makes sleeping very comfortable. Lasko now sells a fan specifically made for cleaning your air. https://www.lasko.com/products/air-flex-air-purifier-and-room-fan-ff305/ https://www.lasko.com/products/air-flex-air-purifier-and-roo...
- breput 5y ago
  I don't know where you live, but that is way excessive for the developed world (minus wildfires). But as long as you are changing out those filters on a regular (3 months?) basis, you can go on being you and being healther for it.
privatdozent 5y ago
For anyone building a house: «Balanced Ventilation»
atlgator 5y ago
Waiting for Elon Musk to disrupt the entrenched, uninventive HVAC industry.
- euroderf 5y ago
  I would settle for a Raspberry Pi board that combines sensors for temperature, CO2, VOCs, and particulate load. Maybe combined with fans that can easily be put into cracked-open windows to force air flow.
- breput 5y ago
  There are already makers that build heat exchangers, but there are a lot of catches and other unexpected impacts. Install a heat pump and/or geothermal.
  - atlgator 5y ago
    I meant more from an air cleaning perspective not efficiency. Tesla built a very efficient auto HVAC system that pressurizes, cleans, and recirculates air through a multistage HEPA filter ("Bioweapon Defense Mode"). That kind of cleaning is usually reserved for commercial/hospital use and very expensive to implement in the residential space right now. In the last Battery Day, Musk indicated he would like to adapt the design to home use.
imvetri 5y ago
Do does the outdoor air
cyberpsybin 5y ago
This feels like a scam artist trying to push air purifiers.
sagarun 5y ago
Air purifiers do not remove co2. The green way to get fresh air into a well insulated house is to use a energy recovery ventilator (ERV)
jl6 5y ago
The growing problems of particulate pollution, airborne viruses, and carbon accumulation all make me think we’re on a path to building systems that will process and filter the entire planet’s atmosphere - a network of giant intake vents and towers.
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  Trantor?
BatteryMountain 5y ago
I've been using a dehumidifier with a hepa filter for the last 4 years or so. I mainly bought it because I moved from an inland region with about 10% humidity to a coastal city with 40% to 60%. Things around the house didn't get dry like I was used to (dishes, shower, towels, laundry, water spills) and on top of that, occasionally had to wash ceiling when they get moldy. Thus I bought a dehumidifier. It was quite expensive at the time and I didn't at the time realize the significance of the hepa filter. I don't have any allergies. Lets just say its been running for 4 years in my place. The trick is to keep windows/doors shut and let it do its work. I move it around in the apartment - in the mornings I move it to the bedroom to get the human smell out. Later on I'll move it to the bathroom or to the spare room to dry some laundry. While all of this is happening, it sucks up all the pollen and dust, odd smells, basically most moisture (no more wet windows). Haven't had to wash a ceiling since I bought it. When you enter the apartment, it smells neutral/clear/crisp - It's kinda hard to describe the smell of clean air, but it is a distinct sensation. You still need to air out your living space every once in a while to get some "fresh" air from the outside. I'd recommend anyone/everyone give this a shot! And remember to replace your hepa filter every once in a while. If you have carpets, you'll have to do it regularly (on that note, get rid of all carpets if you can). I use a "Meaco 12L Low Energy Dehumidifier and Air Purifier". It uses about 150W of power so basically the same as running a fairly large fridge (in my country about $4 of electricity per month). There are larger models but they make more noise. You can also attach a drain pipe to the back so you don't have to empty the water container every day (useful if you aren't going to move it around).
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  If you keep the doors and windows shut, aren't you getting lots of CO2 building up?
  - BatteryMountain 5y ago
    Hence the airing out once in a while. Keeping windows open is bad, esp if you live on a busy street, not to mention impossible to control the moisture then. So you would have to find a balance that fits your living space.
radu_floricica 5y ago
If there are others like me that have been searching for this, Daikin sells the holy grail: an air conditioning unit that does everything, including true ventilation, (de)humidifying and air purification. Basically a compact size HVAC. Currently saving for one. Here they're about 2000 eur.
ZeroGravitas 5y ago
I didn't like the format of this article, bit too much back story, but think the basic conclusion is true. Air quality has a quantifiable impact. The shift to EVs and electric home cooking and heating will also improve this as a side effect. Home stoves, including picturesque log fires are another source. I didn't think the air freshness thing was particularly new, but maybe US regulations have fallen behind, I thought most building codes already considered this.
room271 5y ago
Surprised not to see more mention of MVHR in the comments. This approach constantly brings in fresh air while retaining heat pretty effectively and also filtering incoming air for particles etc. I'm just in the process of retrofitting this to my old home (which definitely has elements of 'sick house' syndrome at the moment). It's not that cheap, and can be tricky to retrofit - usually alongside improving airtightness and insulation - but is one way to dramatically improve air quality in a building, especially over colder months. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation
dschuetz 5y ago
Or maybe we could end up with frail immune systems that go haywire each time when stepping outside. "Scientist says"
asah 5y ago
https://photos.app.goo.gl/kBoR9MCsGwfHG6NB6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/kBoR9MCsGwfHG6NB6 One week given west coast wildfires - perhaps 1-2 months in regular NYC air. Obviously, the healthier, happier and more financially efficient solution is to not pollute the air in the first place. This is wishful thinking given west coast wildfires. Scaremongering aside, it's obvious that air quality matters enough to health, to be worth addressing. Heck, if you're buying organic milk or filtered water, then filter your air. Filtration doesn't need to be expensive or fancy - a 20" box fan with 20" filters works great, no duct tape required - when you turn it on, the filter "sticks." I've proven it's effective with an air particle meter. https://photos.app.goo.gl/YgUnGbNzpYfNW2yr5 https://photos.app.goo.gl/YgUnGbNzpYfNW2yr5
- alistairSH 5y ago
  Is that box fan any more effective than the same/similar filter in the HVAC plenum?
rpmisms 5y ago
It's worth noting that a majority of American east-coast homes have some amount of black mold, which is scary stuff. Run a HEPA filter in your home, you won't regret it.
dionidium 5y ago
Can anybody recommended a device for testing home CO2 levels? I tried to do a quick search, but there is a wide range of products across many price points and it's hard to make sense of it.
- andreyf 5y ago
  after a bunch of looking, the paper that had the most detail on quality and sensors used is https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360132320307836# https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S036013232...! the most accurate readily available for CO2 seems to be the "Laser Egg+ CO2" for $200 https://shop-usa.kaiterra.com/collections/frontpage/products/laser-egg-plus-co2 https://shop-usa.kaiterra.com/collections/frontpage/products... which uses SenseAir S8 but looks and sounds a little silly and the $150 "Awair Element" https://wiki.liutyi.info/display/CO2/Awair+Element+inside https://wiki.liutyi.info/display/CO2/Awair+Element+inside which uses the Amphenol Telaire T6703-5K
revolvingocelot 5y ago
The buried lede in this article is the implication that all serving FBI agents are capable of being "unnerved by a polygraph test" -- so, they're credulous enough to believe fake science or they're influencable enough to break down for the interrogator. I wonder who, or what, this serves.
akaralar 5y ago
reminds me of a 4 minute TED talk I watched a while back, you can grow fresh air with only 3 plants https://www.ted.com/talks/kamal_meattle_how_to_grow_fresh_air/ https://www.ted.com/talks/kamal_meattle_how_to_grow_fresh_ai...

476 points by sohkamyung 5y ago

Been saying this since the onset. Vaccinations were never going to be 70%+ in this country. How many people get flu vaccines and other ones that are non-compulsory? We needed a solution with many different approaches to cover many ways to combat the problem. Cheap box fans + 20x20 filters work wonders. I bought 30 for my place of work as well as jerry-rigged UVC lamps in enclosed boxes. That, combined with high vaccination rates through paying employees 0.5 days PTO if they opt for vaccination (and other common sense policies like distancing, copper-taped door handles, and improved general airflow), has led to 5 outdoor COVID cases coming into work with zero community spread.

maxexcloo 5y ago

Question as an aside, does anyone here have experience with indoor air quality meters? I've had a hard time finding some good recommendations for something reasonably accurate and not too expensive...

jfim 5y ago
It's a bit tricky, because one of the most expensive parts of an air quality meter appears to be the CO2 sensor. Less expensive sensors approximate CO2 concentration (it's referred to as "eCO2") and can be wildly off due to the way they sense gas concentrations. If you have the equipment to make electronics at home and are willing to DIY, it can be done for less than $100 and will be comparable to an off the shelf unit.
bsilvereagle 5y ago
I’m partial to the no-name monitor described here since all the sensors are removable and can be moved into a DIY unit if it breaks. The sensors used are the same parts used in big brand monitors. It also helps that the processor is unlocked and custom firmware can be cooked up: https://frdmtoplay.com/patching-in-fahrenheit/ https://frdmtoplay.com/patching-in-fahrenheit/
andreyf 5y ago
Those are subjective but there's a good paper on accuracy here https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360132320307836# https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S036013232...! tldr for CO2 best is https://www.kaiterra.com/en/laser-egg-co2 https://www.kaiterra.com/en/laser-egg-co2

fighterpilot 5y ago

Do they look at the relative contribution between CO2 and VOCs? These two require very different solutions. The first is about ventilation in closed spaces, and the second can be solved with only a $300 air purifier. EDIT: Here is the original study: https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1510037 https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1510037 I really don't understand their methods pertaining to VOCs. Maybe someone can fill me in. Their method pertaining to CO2 seems straightforward.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gilgoomesh 5y ago
They didn't clean the air. Their methods were to inject air of different concentrations. As stated in the article, the best approach to cleaning CO2 and VOCs is increasing the flow of outside air into closed spaces. The headline involving the word "cleaning" is misleading since it should not be your first choice unless outside air quality is poor.

girishso 5y ago

The pessimist in me likes to think this article is sponsored by the air purifier lobby. Healthier I can understand, but smarter? How do they prove smartness?

IntrepidWorm 5y ago
>In the first study, published in 2015, they had 24 white-collar volunteers spend six working days in environmentally controlled office spaces at Syracuse University’s Total Indoor Environmental Quality Laboratory. On various days the experimenters would alter ventilation rates and levels of CO2 and VOCs. Each afternoon the volunteers were tested on their ability to think analytically and react to a crisis. (One test, for example put the volunteer in the role of a small-town mayor trying to react to an emergency.) All tests were double-blind: Neither the volunteers nor the study personnel knew that day’s environmental conditions. Cognitive testing (detailed above) was used to test "smartness." I am, however, similarly pessimistic.
loonster 5y ago
It seemed like a huge fluff article for a "science" mag. I felt like I had to scroll a significant amount to get passed the bio. If anything it was sponsored by HVAC. Heat recovery ventilation units are expensive. (Would have one if a new house. Harder to justify for retrofit.)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
bpodgursky 5y ago
There's a lot of evidence that people perform worse on intellectual tasks at high CO2 and VOC levels.
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  to be precise: we perform worse in conditions dramatically different from our natural habitat. Fish also can't breathe on land, despite much higher concentrations of oxygen. What does that mean? Those studies are often mis-used as doom porn fodder, and are really only useful for occupational limits and employment liability, not some future forecasts for the next few centuries. The only constant thing about climate is that its constantly changes, and large fluctuations have happened many times in the past, and mammals survived. Some of the dinosaurs that survived (birds) even developed a whole different type of super efficient hemoglobin, and if CO2 keeps going up - so will we. Some people already retain large amounts of fetal hemoglobin, maybe that's the way? At any rate, the best view on climate change I've read online: http://timtyler.org/end_the_ice_age/ http://timtyler.org/end_the_ice_age/

mensetmanusman 5y ago

I’ve been harping on this since learning covid was aerosol based early 2020. I like to tell new parents a trick that worked well for us: use a nice filter-based air purifier for white noise. It has deep bass, and it keeps the air near the child extremely clean. We have been doing this for our kids for almost 10 years now since birth. A fun experiment for kids: if you have a laser pointer, shine it close to the ground indoors and kick up dust near the floor. If you see any light in the air, that is all stuff you are breathing in (works really well on carpet)… Air quality associated with: Alzheimers: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-new-alzheimers-air-pollution-link/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-new-alzheimer... Cancers, plural: https://www.aacr.org/patients-caregivers/progress-against-cancer/air-pollution-associated-cancer/ https://www.aacr.org/patients-caregivers/progress-against-ca... Sperm Quality: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4443398/#sec99552title https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4443398/#sec995... Female Fertility: https://www.newscientist.com/article/2207560-exposure-to-air-pollution-seems-to-negatively-affect-womens-fertility/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2207560-exposure-to-air... Autism: https://www.sciencealert.com/particulate-matter-in-air-pollution-raises-autism-risks-in-the-first-few-years https://www.sciencealert.com/particulate-matter-in-air-pollu... Bipolar/Depression: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/air-pollution-linked-to-bipolar-disorder-depression https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/air-p...

LegitShady 5y ago
recently replaced a robot vacuum with a corded plugin model with 3x the suction power and the amount of dust it removed from carpets already 'clean' by the robovac was pretty incredible. I have the robot vacuum still doing its thing every other day but at least once a week I do a deep clean and it removes a ton of dust. I also have a HEPA filter air purifier going 24 hours. Carpets are the worst.
- tehnub 5y ago
  Maybe the carpet acts as a filter for dust that you would otherwise be breathing?

robertwt7 5y ago

I've been wanting to buy an air purifier but not sure if it is a necessary buy or not. Before spending another 200-300$ for some stuff that I usually find reason to spend on, I need to know if it makes a huge difference from day to day basis. This article definitely supports it, however has anyone actually ever felt that much difference after getting their purifier?

vpj 5y ago
Bought one about a week ago, because of similar research studies. I don't notice anything different. I use it in the bedroom when sleeping. May be my air quality was already pretty good. I will check the status of the filter after a few weeks to see how much purifying it had to do.
- robertwt7 5y ago
  Do you feel any slight difference on your breath, health, body at all? Something worth noticing?
  - qw3rty01 5y ago
    You probably won't notice a difference unless you have allergies, or there's some other issue causing abnormally high amounts of VOCs to be in the air (such as mold or dust)
  - vpj 5y ago
    Nothing
jjeaff 5y ago
Get a $20 box fan and slap a house intake HEPA filter replacement on the back of it. It will do just as well if not better than an expensive HEPA filter. If it makes a difference and you want something that sounds different or has some extra features, then you could get a nicer one.
- chris_va 5y ago

dbish 5y ago

I bought a few co2 and voc detectors and air purifiers to try and help with this. Air purifiers are useful during pollen season and for dust not sure anything else. The co2 detectors were actually great for knowing when to open the door or window in my office or living room

fighterpilot 5y ago
Which brand of detector?
- dbish 5y ago
  Awair Element. Looks nice enough to keep on a shelf too
breput 5y ago
Do you see consistency between your CO2 detectors? Early on in the pandemic when I started working at home, I became very cognizant about the impact of CO2 and built a little project with a microcontroller and the MHZ-19B CO2 sensor. Calibrating the sensor is an ongoing challenge and while I have 18 months of data, I'm still not 100% confident about the accuracy of the data at any given time. Still...I literally can feel when the CO2 level is above 800 - 1000ppm and it isn't always as easy as opening a window to counteract. There are certain conditions - maybe the barometric pressure or temperature gradient, but sometimes forced ventilation is necessary to get into the "comfortable" 400-600ppm range.
- dbish 5y ago
  They seem accurate within 100ppm or so which is enough to give me the information I need. Looking at their specs their claim is 75ppm https://support.getawair.com/hc/en-us/articles/360060843933-What-is-the-Technical-Accuracy-of-Awair-Element-Sensors- https://support.getawair.com/hc/en-us/articles/360060843933-...
  - breput 5y ago
    Yeah, that is more than adequate. When I posted my project online I got the not-unexpected feedback that the sensor was hard to calibrate. I don't care about 400 vs. 600 ppm. I do care about 600 ppm vs. 1600 ppm.

fabianhjr 5y ago

I have felt way better with a HEPA-filter in my room and better ventilation. (Also got a vacum-mop-robot that reduced dust a lot by vacumming and mopping daily my main working area and bedroom)

fighterpilot 5y ago
I was thinking about a home setup. Opening the window lets in VOCs from outside, which the HEPA-filter is supposed to clean up. Seems a bit counterproductive or self-defeating, no? A more proper setup that you'd find in an office building is probably too expensive for home.
- fabianhjr 5y ago
  I open the back windows not the street facing ones
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    Sure, but I just wonder about the effectiveness of a filter when we do that. If all of the air in the room is completely replaced with air from outside via the open window, then what does the filter achieve? It seems that there's a trade-off between lowering CO2 and lowering VOCs.
    - fabianhjr 5y ago
      Not all, just the rate has te be somewhat balanced, there is definitely a breeze and the air filter helps mostly with PM and indoor sources.
- hollerith 5y ago
  HEPA removes only particulates, not VOCs and not CO2.

oneplane 5y ago

"Scientist says" - okay, that's not very useful, which scientist? What science? What research? What's it being backed by? What money flows are behind it? What's the conflict of interest report? Any time a headline says "scientists say" that's just some sort of crappy marketing signal, not actually a useful thing to put in your headline because those words in that way lost their value. It used to be that a scientist was someone who was an actual scientist, applying scientific principles and having an accredited master or maybe even doctorate. And then it also wasn't "they said" but "published" or "reported" or "found evidence of". In this case it happens to be: - Joseph Allen - runs a major public health research project at Harvard University (Associate Professor) - consults with companies on ventilation and air filtration - writing dozens of op-eds - washed out as an FBI recruit - doctoral thesis at the Boston University School of Public Health - a bunch of Director, Co-Director, Deputy Director, Commissioner, Chair, Advisory Group things - Has a bunch of publications which has his name on it, but also a billion other names, and as far as I know people tend to stick on a bunch of names that didn't actually 'do the work', but simply were guiding tutor style personal advisors. The Boston thing seems to be: > We used personal air samplers to measure indoor air exposure to polybrominated diphenyl ethers (PBDEs) for 20 residents of the Greater Boston Area (Massachusetts). Area air measures were simultaneously collected from two rooms in each participant's home. So the entirety of what's visible on the surface doesn't tell me much, except: - Does a lot of management type of thing - No quantitative hard science, just low sample sized tests - Mostly busy being 'visible' (be it marketing or talking head for a group that did the actual science) Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "this person is bad, this advice is bad, and there is nothing here to support any of this". I am saying that some magazine headline with a "scientist says" just doesn't have a lot of meaning. This guy might very well know his stuff, but it's pretty hard to derive that from whatever is published in magazines and sites. At the same time it seems somewhat obvious that if we, as mankind, go and modify the air we live in by constructing boxes to live and work in with minimal airflow (be it cycling or fresh air replacement) that you would normally have done by general weather patterns and nature, we're probably not going to be better for it. That doesn't mean we need a company to invent an 'outdoor air simulator' to buy, but it might mean that having a well-sealed building requires some compensating features (be it air replacement/flow from outside, or some other method like strategic vents that make use of differences in airflow speeds around the building). Making sure that you don't collect a lot of particulate matter and just floats through the air all the time has an impact. (or, as others have posted: cleaning up your durst and mopping) Measuring your air quality can give you an idea if what you are doing is making things worse or better (i.e. if you have forced-air AC and you turn it on, you can probably see CO2 levels either rise or drop, same as when you have air vents or windows to the outside you can open - requires the air outside to be reasonable of course).

tylorr 5y ago

Keeping an air purifier running efficiently requires me to keep all the windows closed which negatively effects the temperature in my apartment. Is it worth the trade off?

fighterpilot 5y ago
Without ventilation, you are increasing CO2 to over 1000 ppm doing that, which as the study points out is bad in itself.
- tehnub 5y ago
  I was wondering about similar things a while back. I don't know if there are any easy options, but if you were, say, looking to do a custom house build, it seems that a passive house with mechanical ventilation heat recovery (MVHR), or alternatively a positive pressure system, would be ideal for indoor air quality. In either case you are getting a steady supply of purified, low-CO2 air to breathe.
marricks 5y ago
Keeping plants in your house reduces CO2 levels and removes pollutants, perhaps try that. - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32170619/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32170619/ - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1360138518300463 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13601...

zz865 5y ago

It doesn't make sense to me - I'd think we all get enough oxygen even in stale air. Is there any hypothetical reason why they'd think it would make you healthier or smarter?

fighterpilot 5y ago
Throughout our evolutionary history, we were breathing in air with about 300 ppm of CO2. What makes you think everything will be perfect with our bodies and brains if we jack that up to 1000 ppm?
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  If you are indoors you are likely breathing 1000ppm already. Some large cities already at 900ppm. So, absolutely nothing? OSHA limits on CO2, might be useful: https://www.fsis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media_file/2020-08/Carbon-Dioxide.pdf https://www.fsis.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media_file/202...
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    > If you are indoors you are likely breathing 1000ppm already. Not if you have ventilation or leave the window open. > Some large cities already at 900ppm. Which ones? I read online that New York can go up to 500 ppm and Shanghai up to 550 ppm. > OSHA limits on CO2, might be useful I find it very plausible that higher order cognition is the first thing to be negatively impacted, before macro-level symptoms like headaches or drowsiness start manifesting at 10,000+ ppm.
    - inter_netuser 5y ago
      https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17100666/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17100666/ 1000pm in Shanghai classrooms, windows open: "The air exchange rate was 2.9-29.4 ac/h (mean 9.1), because of window opening. Mean CO2 exceeded 1000 ppm in 45% of the classrooms." 1000pm is a non-event. Life survived multiple extinction-level asteroid impacts. We've adapted to much worse in the past. At the worst, people will have indoor/car CO2-removers, just like you cannot really survive without an AC everywhere in Middle East (or Arizona) today. Maybe we'll just have to get some more indoor plants.

forgotmypw17 5y ago

You can go a long way by just not polluting your own house with VOCs, as mentioned in other comments here. Basically, you have to abstain from most "cleaning" products, new furniture, and ... something else, I think?

fighterpilot 5y ago
Wait, what's the thing with cleaning products? Do dish detergents and surface cleaners create VOCs?
- Sunspark 5y ago
  A lot of people like to use "fabric softeners" that are heavily fragranced, and they also like to purchase plug-in oil wick "air fresheners" that soak into every porous surface as well as your lungs. This is in addition to the regular stuff. So it's not just VOCs anymore, but also HAPs--hazardous air pollutants. Example, those clip-in auto air vent air fresheners that people buy for their cars. Spend 20 minutes in that person's car, notice how the next day your clothing still smells strongly of the oil-based air freshener. You were also inhaling that. And this is somehow perfectly fine?
binkHN 5y ago
I use an air monitor from Awair. Every time I cook at home, the VOCs go up tremendously. Should I stop cooking?
- MengerSponge 5y ago
  You should use a range hood, or you should have much better kitchen ventilation.
  - binkHN 5y ago
    I have a range hood. I haven't compared the VOCs when using it or not, but I can tell you they are rather high even with it.

cenophor 5y ago

This reeks like a con-artists rephrasing perfectly normal and mundane observations into scary-sounding situations so that people would buy the air-filter companies that are funding your research. I'm all for cleaner air and I don't doubt that the already well-established negative effects of high CO2 or VOC concentrations on us, but can we at least keep any discussion to non-anecdotal, strong scientific evidence? None the articles linked both here show any rigorous statistics that pinpoint cause and effects, it's all handwavy conjectures with "common sense" evidence and statistical dressing to show correlation. Correlation doesn't even necessarily mean causality. Some of the articles even have *may" in the title, you can be the judge. Probably an unpopular opinion given the large amount of anecdotal science already posted. Dust on carpet is bad and particularly if you don't clean it and let stuff grow - we all know that already and we don't need a laser pointer to show kids how scary it is. Just because you can see it doesn't necessarily mean it's worse, and just because you can't see it doesn't necessarily mean it's better. It's just insanity that everyone is suddenly a scientists with a few anecdotes or links to articles that show correlation but not causality.

paul7986 5y ago
Yes media is bought and paid for and is the boogeyman. Tuned it out May 2020 and get my news like for Covid directly from friends working in hospitals (docs, nurses, admins, etc) in various cities.
fighterpilot 5y ago
How can it not be causality when it's a double-blind intervention? This isn't an epidemiological study that is merely observing correlations in the wild. https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1510037 https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/ehp.1510037
- criticaltinker 5y ago
  > How can it not be causality when it's a double-blind intervention? The design of the study looks solid and results are certainly statistically significant. With N=24 and the limitations quoted below, I think it's fair to take these results with a grain of skepticism. But on balance, I found the criticism in GP's comment to be a little over the top. - "By testing on subsequent days, it is possible that effects from one condition were reflected in the scores obtained on the next day." - "The environmental factors that were not experimentally modified exhibited some variability owing to changes in outdoor conditions and participant behavior." - "This study used a controlled environment to individually control certain contaminants. Assessments performed in actual office environments are important to confirm the findings in a noncontrolled setting."

EGreg 5y ago

Conversely, at present rates, the CO2 in the atmosphere can approach a stuffy room in the future, making us have to actually run oxygen purifiers indoors to remain smart. https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/carbon-dioxide/ https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/carbon-dioxide/ whereas this is what humans can handle: https://www.kane.co.uk/knowledge-centre/what-are-safe-levels-of-co-and-co2-in-rooms https://www.kane.co.uk/knowledge-centre/what-are-safe-levels... Current value: 417 ppm With ocean acidification, acid rain, etc. it's not just about "global warming".

elevenoh 5y ago
This is quite an interesting phenomenon unfolding. Those with high-CO2 performant genetics may have better cognitive development in the future. (Also, it's sad to see kids wearing masks all day with zero regard for the science on CO2 concentration & health).
- EGreg 5y ago
  I am sad to see kids eating genetically modified food sith high fructose corn syrup, products from cows with antibiotics, and so on, getting diabetes and obesity at a young age, and being addicted to screens And this is correlated to the morbidity from the actual virus The USA and its factory farmed agriculture industry doesn’t really care about the public health outcomes. They care about cheaper hamburgers and industrial level farming. For-profit industries often have to do it. The same way that so much ink has been spilled about the exodus of people from big cities during the pandemic, in a “ha ha too much socialism” way, but very little about the decade of slowly emptying small towns across America, from the rust belt to the mining towns. None of these political pundits care to talk about the slow plight of the little guy. The situation before the pandemic saw half of all employed Americans living paycheck to paycheck, very low savings, while the government doubled down on trickle down economics.
- andreyf 5y ago
  Which science do you mean? Found a redacted study from Germany and doctors saying there's no effect on blood O2 or CO2 levels https://uihc.org/health-topics/do-face-masks-make-you-retain-carbon-dioxide https://uihc.org/health-topics/do-face-masks-make-you-retain...

MavropaliasG 5y ago

Just open the window

divbzero 5y ago
I’ve bought air filters and detectors to protect against wildfire smoke. “Just open the window” is actually pretty good advice in most (non-wildfire) times. My indoor air quality improves sharply as soon as let in an outdoor breeze.
- r00fus 5y ago
  I installed a whole-house fan [1] when AQI outside is good (especially during fire season) - usually early mornings or late evenings - outside air, despite being somewhat dirty is often better than stale indoor air. We do this every day even when it's cold outside for at least 15m. In summer sometimes we leave on the "low" setting all night instead of running the AC. [1] https://www.hoffmannbros.com/electrical/whole-house-fans/how-it-works https://www.hoffmannbros.com/electrical/whole-house-fans/how...
breput 5y ago
Without adequate measurements, you would be surprised how wrong your advice is. If there are wildfires anywhere upwind, you're better off (barely) with the windows shut and recirculating the air through the furnace filter.

wolverine876 5y ago

This sentence raises questions for me: > Allen came to see businesspeople as natural allies who could act on his public health findings faster than government officials. When I see a cliched narrative or meme, I suspect it that's its only basis - reality doesn't match the memes so neatly - and also this one benefits their busines partners. Also, why aren't public health officials acting? When I see someone say they are too slow, IME it's usually because their claims aren't sufficiently substantiated. Accelerating approval and reducing government oversight hasn't had great results.

XorNot 5y ago

My big problem right now is adding a filtered fresh-air intake to my house. CO2 in my rooms spikes when working at home and above 600 is cognitive impairment and you definitely feel it (I'm pretty sure meetings which go off the rails at work have this problem too - I really need a wearable monitor so I can cancel them when it starts happening). The thing is I also need to do heat recovery, and since it's Australia, I definitely want to be able to do a filtered air overpressure in winter.

teruakohatu 5y ago
Just open a window a crack. The CO2 drops rapidly. The problem with ultra insulated homes are that C02 and moisture get trapped. So then you need filtered fresh air, and then heat recovery.
- XorNot 5y ago
  My windows face the street - and that's the issue, heat loss in winter is a big deal. And I have to actively monitor in order to know I should do it - this isn't something you really think about, and its terrible when you're in the flow while working. There's also other reasons - for example I want to ensure the flow of air through the house concentrates and exits via the bathrooms and kitchen.
- breput 5y ago
  It isn't quite that easy. Even if there aren't impediments to opening a window a crack, it is not guaranteed that passive measures will reduce CO2 levels. I've been tracking my home office's CO2 level for about a year and a half and obviously opening a window helps, but there are certain conditions (pressure, temperature, wind?) that require fans to normalize the levels.
- nsporillo 5y ago
  Heat Recovery Ventilators can be used to address the moisture issue

cmurf 5y ago

I believe it will become necessary sooner than we imagine. 32 continuous days of air pollution warnings in Denver this summer (ozone and smoke). This comes with a recommendation to not drive unless you have a zero emission vehicle. It's bad enough I'm not running or biking much at all or I end up coughing for hours afterward, and have itchy eyes. It's terrible.

MattGaiser 5y ago

When is there going to be the Apple for houses? I want to buy a house that incorporates all this research and thought.

offsky 5y ago

If we can’t open a window because the outdoor air quality is poor (polluted city) how can we reduce indoor CO2?

bsilvereagle 5y ago
There are a growing number of companies selling algae-based CO2 scrubbers. You grow algae and force air to bubble through it. When the algae fully grows you can harvest it to eat or compost. However, you need to really run the numbers to see if the particular volume of algae is sufficient to clean the levels of CO2 you’d like to. In my case, I’d need ~20 of these to negate the CO2 generation in the space. https://algenair.com/ https://algenair.com/
- andreyf 5y ago
  and if you don't want to spend $250, the DIY version seems pretty easy, too: https://www.greenhousetoday.com/growing-spirulina/ https://www.greenhousetoday.com/growing-spirulina/

thewhitetulip 5y ago

Any plants that purify air? I've read online about the NASA study that says Snake plant purify air but then I read that there wasn't really a conclusive end to that study. And that it's all mis information I am not comfortable with an air filter at home so am searching for anything apart from that

euroderf 5y ago
There are plants that are pretty good at removing VOCs. I think spider plants were a winner.
akaralar 5y ago
yep, check this 4 min video https://www.ted.com/talks/kamal_meattle_how_to_grow_fresh_air https://www.ted.com/talks/kamal_meattle_how_to_grow_fresh_ai...

hourislate 5y ago

I have 5 20 x 20 box fans running 24/7/365 with Merv 13 HEPA filters placed against the back (held on by the fans suction). The whole house has Merv 12 HEPA filtration through forced air system. The air in the house is incredibly clean, to the point where after working from home and not going out much for the last 1.5 years, I am finding that I'm way more sensitive to allergens outside. Otherwise there is almost zero dust, the house has no odor, and there is a nice hum that drowns out outside noise and makes sleeping very comfortable. Lasko now sells a fan specifically made for cleaning your air. https://www.lasko.com/products/air-flex-air-purifier-and-room-fan-ff305/ https://www.lasko.com/products/air-flex-air-purifier-and-roo...

breput 5y ago
I don't know where you live, but that is way excessive for the developed world (minus wildfires). But as long as you are changing out those filters on a regular (3 months?) basis, you can go on being you and being healther for it.

privatdozent 5y ago

For anyone building a house: «Balanced Ventilation»

atlgator 5y ago

Waiting for Elon Musk to disrupt the entrenched, uninventive HVAC industry.

euroderf 5y ago
I would settle for a Raspberry Pi board that combines sensors for temperature, CO2, VOCs, and particulate load. Maybe combined with fans that can easily be put into cracked-open windows to force air flow.
breput 5y ago
There are already makers that build heat exchangers, but there are a lot of catches and other unexpected impacts. Install a heat pump and/or geothermal.
- atlgator 5y ago
  I meant more from an air cleaning perspective not efficiency. Tesla built a very efficient auto HVAC system that pressurizes, cleans, and recirculates air through a multistage HEPA filter ("Bioweapon Defense Mode"). That kind of cleaning is usually reserved for commercial/hospital use and very expensive to implement in the residential space right now. In the last Battery Day, Musk indicated he would like to adapt the design to home use.

imvetri 5y ago

Do does the outdoor air

cyberpsybin 5y ago

This feels like a scam artist trying to push air purifiers.

sagarun 5y ago

Air purifiers do not remove co2. The green way to get fresh air into a well insulated house is to use a energy recovery ventilator (ERV)

jl6 5y ago

The growing problems of particulate pollution, airborne viruses, and carbon accumulation all make me think we’re on a path to building systems that will process and filter the entire planet’s atmosphere - a network of giant intake vents and towers.

DoingIsLearning 5y ago
Trantor?

BatteryMountain 5y ago

I've been using a dehumidifier with a hepa filter for the last 4 years or so. I mainly bought it because I moved from an inland region with about 10% humidity to a coastal city with 40% to 60%. Things around the house didn't get dry like I was used to (dishes, shower, towels, laundry, water spills) and on top of that, occasionally had to wash ceiling when they get moldy. Thus I bought a dehumidifier. It was quite expensive at the time and I didn't at the time realize the significance of the hepa filter. I don't have any allergies. Lets just say its been running for 4 years in my place. The trick is to keep windows/doors shut and let it do its work. I move it around in the apartment - in the mornings I move it to the bedroom to get the human smell out. Later on I'll move it to the bathroom or to the spare room to dry some laundry. While all of this is happening, it sucks up all the pollen and dust, odd smells, basically most moisture (no more wet windows). Haven't had to wash a ceiling since I bought it. When you enter the apartment, it smells neutral/clear/crisp - It's kinda hard to describe the smell of clean air, but it is a distinct sensation. You still need to air out your living space every once in a while to get some "fresh" air from the outside. I'd recommend anyone/everyone give this a shot! And remember to replace your hepa filter every once in a while. If you have carpets, you'll have to do it regularly (on that note, get rid of all carpets if you can). I use a "Meaco 12L Low Energy Dehumidifier and Air Purifier". It uses about 150W of power so basically the same as running a fairly large fridge (in my country about $4 of electricity per month). There are larger models but they make more noise. You can also attach a drain pipe to the back so you don't have to empty the water container every day (useful if you aren't going to move it around).

fighterpilot 5y ago
If you keep the doors and windows shut, aren't you getting lots of CO2 building up?
- BatteryMountain 5y ago
  Hence the airing out once in a while. Keeping windows open is bad, esp if you live on a busy street, not to mention impossible to control the moisture then. So you would have to find a balance that fits your living space.

radu_floricica 5y ago

If there are others like me that have been searching for this, Daikin sells the holy grail: an air conditioning unit that does everything, including true ventilation, (de)humidifying and air purification. Basically a compact size HVAC. Currently saving for one. Here they're about 2000 eur.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

I didn't like the format of this article, bit too much back story, but think the basic conclusion is true. Air quality has a quantifiable impact. The shift to EVs and electric home cooking and heating will also improve this as a side effect. Home stoves, including picturesque log fires are another source. I didn't think the air freshness thing was particularly new, but maybe US regulations have fallen behind, I thought most building codes already considered this.

room271 5y ago

Surprised not to see more mention of MVHR in the comments. This approach constantly brings in fresh air while retaining heat pretty effectively and also filtering incoming air for particles etc. I'm just in the process of retrofitting this to my old home (which definitely has elements of 'sick house' syndrome at the moment). It's not that cheap, and can be tricky to retrofit - usually alongside improving airtightness and insulation - but is one way to dramatically improve air quality in a building, especially over colder months. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_recovery_ventilation

dschuetz 5y ago

Or maybe we could end up with frail immune systems that go haywire each time when stepping outside. "Scientist says"

asah 5y ago

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kBoR9MCsGwfHG6NB6 https://photos.app.goo.gl/kBoR9MCsGwfHG6NB6 One week given west coast wildfires - perhaps 1-2 months in regular NYC air. Obviously, the healthier, happier and more financially efficient solution is to not pollute the air in the first place. This is wishful thinking given west coast wildfires. Scaremongering aside, it's obvious that air quality matters enough to health, to be worth addressing. Heck, if you're buying organic milk or filtered water, then filter your air. Filtration doesn't need to be expensive or fancy - a 20" box fan with 20" filters works great, no duct tape required - when you turn it on, the filter "sticks." I've proven it's effective with an air particle meter. https://photos.app.goo.gl/YgUnGbNzpYfNW2yr5 https://photos.app.goo.gl/YgUnGbNzpYfNW2yr5

alistairSH 5y ago
Is that box fan any more effective than the same/similar filter in the HVAC plenum?

rpmisms 5y ago

It's worth noting that a majority of American east-coast homes have some amount of black mold, which is scary stuff. Run a HEPA filter in your home, you won't regret it.

dionidium 5y ago

Can anybody recommended a device for testing home CO2 levels? I tried to do a quick search, but there is a wide range of products across many price points and it's hard to make sense of it.

andreyf 5y ago
after a bunch of looking, the paper that had the most detail on quality and sensors used is https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360132320307836# https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S036013232...! the most accurate readily available for CO2 seems to be the "Laser Egg+ CO2" for $200 https://shop-usa.kaiterra.com/collections/frontpage/products/laser-egg-plus-co2 https://shop-usa.kaiterra.com/collections/frontpage/products... which uses SenseAir S8 but looks and sounds a little silly and the $150 "Awair Element" https://wiki.liutyi.info/display/CO2/Awair+Element+inside https://wiki.liutyi.info/display/CO2/Awair+Element+inside which uses the Amphenol Telaire T6703-5K

revolvingocelot 5y ago

The buried lede in this article is the implication that all serving FBI agents are capable of being "unnerved by a polygraph test" -- so, they're credulous enough to believe fake science or they're influencable enough to break down for the interrogator. I wonder who, or what, this serves.

akaralar 5y ago

reminds me of a 4 minute TED talk I watched a while back, you can grow fresh air with only 3 plants https://www.ted.com/talks/kamal_meattle_how_to_grow_fresh_air/ https://www.ted.com/talks/kamal_meattle_how_to_grow_fresh_ai...