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This should not be surprising to anyone. Arstechnica has followed Nikola's terrible and obvious fraud(s) for years now: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/02/ni

• api 5y ago
  Even the name screams transparent fraud, a ridiculously obvious attempt to associate with Tesla. Weren't there VCs who put money into this? What were they thinking? Were they being amoral and hoping to ride this pump and dump or did they actually buy into this shit?
  • mikestew 5y ago
    My first thought when hearing of the company was the J. T. Marlin "brokerage" from the movie Boiler Room. And for those viewers that didn't get the joke, the movie helpfully provides a scene where other brokers in a bar make fun of the uncanny resemblance to "J. P. Morgan". Bonus point for the ethical similarities between J. T. Marlin and Nikola.
    • twelve40 5y ago
      This Nikola thing looks pretty weird indeed, but to be fair, Musk's name for his company is also not very original, since he (or whoever) also just took the dude's name even though he had absolutely nothing to do with him.
      • lordnacho 5y ago
        I thought Musk joined after it had been founded? Did he change the name?
        • Sebguer 5y ago
          No, Musk had literally nothing to do with the name, just a continuation of his myth as anything more than a guy with a lot of money.
          • ineedasername 5y ago
            a guy with a lot of money Well, in the words of Batman when asked about his superpower, "I'm rich".
          • vlunkr 5y ago
            Is it really a significant part of his myth that he named the company?
            • deleted 5y ago
              [deleted]
            • Sebguer 5y ago
              I didn't say it was significant! Though, being considered a 'co-founder' of Tesla was important enough to him to sue the actual founders.
          • sebzim4500 5y ago
            I think Bezos has demonstrated quite convincingly that simply having a lot of money does not mean you can compete with SpaceX. Similarly, I don't know much about the automotive industry, but turning a company with a few employees into one of the most valuable companies in the world is not easy, even if you have $100 million to play with at the start. It's OK to simultaneously believe that "Elon Musk is very effective at growing engineering businesses to the point that they disrupt entire industries" and also that "Elon Musk is not as smart as he thinks he is, and his tweets are embarrassing".
    • dannylandau 5y ago
      Generally don't comment on sub-posts, but Boiler Room is a great movie! And very apropo to the current market stock/crypto craze going on right now.
  • SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
    > Weren't there VCs who put money into this? Definitely, but worse than that, real companies that really should have known better. GM associated themselves. For what reason I can’t figure out. It must have been high up because the GM engineers I know all knew it was a 100% scam. It’s like anything else that confuses me in business. Some idiot made a mistake, sure, but then their boss approved that, and all the other people required approved it, and at no point did anyone say “Hey, wait, no, stop”.
    • yup00 5y ago
      I read an article, over a year ago now, that said the GM deal was nothing but upside for GM They got cash from Nikola whether they ended up manufacturing anything for them or not, and had to put up nothing up front.
      • dasudasu 5y ago
        Reputational hit from propping up literal fraud. Opportunity cost from not partnering with better companies in the space.
        • yup00 5y ago
          GM’s reputation is trash with anyone but patriotic “GM/Chevy” Americans already. So long as the public are willing to believe they’re essential, they’ll remain too big to fail and don’t need to worry about their reputation.
    • mcot2 5y ago
      One of the NKLA board members Steve Girsky was previously a Vice Chairmen at GM and likely facilitated this deal. I think it needs to be investigated further and Mary Barra should be forced to provide the evidence of due dilligence that GM collected during the closing of the deal.
      • bell-cot 5y ago
        What due diligence is reasonably required of GM, if the deal is obviously a win or wash for them, no matter what happens at NKLA?
  • H8crilA 5y ago
    Just "Copying Tesla" is not a fraud by a mile, the whole point of capitalism is that enterprises compete by offering alternative solutions[1]. It is actually surprising it took so long for someone to copy the "electric car company with Tesla characteristics", given the insanely attractive cost of equity capital that Tesla is enjoying. Matt Levine wrote a section on this, about how Elon said good-bye to earnings calls since his funding is coming mostly from retail investors, to whom he speaks via Twitter and memes, they don't listen to the call anyhow so why bother :) https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-07-27/matt-levine-s-money-stuff-lordstown-is-selling-some-stock https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-07-27/matt-l... [1] Well unless (unless! unless!) it eventually turns out that Tesla is a fraud and you're copying that too.
    • mcot2 5y ago
      Whatever you think of them, the Tesla fanboys have been proven more right then wrong and the likes of Matt Levine (and Bloomberg) are just bitter at this point. A lot of EV startups like NKLA are going to come and go but very few if any will be able to replicate Teslas success in the long term. Retail investors are not always stupid, many of the same Tesla investors have been shorting NKLA since it came on via a spac offering. Personally I don’t always love everything Elon does but I view him in many ways as a modern day Edison. It’s always funny to me to go back and read stuff said about Edison while he was alive. I very much color my view of Musk by historical perspective and try not to get lost in present day minutia.
      • ineedasername 5y ago
        and the likes of Matt Levine (and Bloomberg) are just bitter Matt Levine has also struck me as more amused-- and perhaps confused-- than bitter about this.
        • unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
          Matt writes brilliantly on irrational, ridiculous, silly happenings in the world of finance. My guess is he's happy for a such a steady stream of subject matter.
  • itsoktocry 5y ago
    >a ridiculously obvious attempt to associate with Tesla. Nikola was building barely functional prototypes of their trucks years before Tesla was building barely functional Semi truck prototypes, for the record. >What were they thinking? Were they being amoral and hoping to ride this pump and dump or did they actually buy into this shit? Fundamentally, what have they done that's so evil compared to, say, the multitude of things Tesla has claimed over the past few years? For example, Tesla claimed door-to-door cross country self-driving tests, oh, about 5 years ago. At what point is it aspiration versus indictable fraud?
    • admax88q 5y ago
      Well... Tesla actually sells real cars. Nikola so far looks little different than your average kickstarter that never delivers.
      • itsoktocry 5y ago
        >Well... Tesla actually sells real cars. So if you sell cars and land rockets, you can lie about other things?
        • lazide 5y ago
          Hopefully not - but at least you’d not be 100% fraudulent, unlike the lovely subject of this posting.
    • rberg 5y ago
      > Nikola was building barely functional prototypes of their trucks years before Tesla was building barely functional Semi truck prototypes, for the record. If by "barely functional" you mean a metal skeleton on wheels that rolled down hills, then yes. I'm not a shill for Tesla as they definitely have made very questionable claims in the past, but to claim that Nikola's semi is in any way similar to Tesla is a bit of a stretch.
      • mcot2 5y ago
• anyfactor 5y ago
  I browse through a lot of niche investing social media groups. One of the more liked posts on a Nikola investment group was, "If "they" cared about the future, the earth and the renewable energy issue, they would let whatever Trevor did slide." Surprisingly, I saw similar posts about Musk on the Thailand rescuer tweet and the price too high tweet. You are not betting against the fundamentals or the realities of the stock, you are betting against these people.
  • fossuser 5y ago
    Something can be true in one case and not true in another. Nikola looked like fraud from the start (no Silicon Valley funds invested iirc - money came from Detroit). Elon Musk is obviously different.
    • zeusk 5y ago
      Silicon Valley is choke full of fraud and absurd valuations.
      • fossuser 5y ago
        When you look at the actual fraud (like Theranos) silicon valley funds are nowhere near it. The people that get duped are usually outsiders that are more easily manipulated. It can be hard to tell the difference between big ideas and bullshit, they can often sound similar. Con-artists will mimic the people that actually know their shit. In order to tell the difference you need to actually look at the underlying tech for yourself.
        • rvz 5y ago
          > Con-artists will mimic the people that actually know their shit. Ah yes. A certain billionaire promises robo-taxis and full Level 5 autonomy by 2020, and then in 2021, admits self-driving is hard as FSD is still Level 2, after duping their own customers on buying ahead of their 'promises'. This billionaire in 2019, surely knew what he was talking about. /s > In order to tell the difference you need to actually look at the underlying tech for yourself. Like the deceptive advertisement of FSD (Full Self Driving) auto-pilot software in Tesla cars that has tricked many Tesla drivers into paying for a product that not only doesn't work as advertised, but puts the safety of drivers and others at risk. The worst part is that they continue to market it regardless of the missed deadlines, the safety risks and the fact that the software is still 'safe' for usage, which that is complete bullshit. The FSD feature in Tesla cars (along side the robotaxis) was deceptively advertised as 'safe' and promised as 'Level 5' with lots of customers buying into it; and some have lost their lives over the software getting confused. If FSD is not regarded as 'actual fraud' or 'deceptively advertised', then I don't know what is.
• yup00 5y ago
  Financial markets are not coupled to real economics anymore. They’re coupled to speculative gamesmanship. Whoever can generate statistics to captivate the masses who do not understand them, via press releases, and media blitzes. That sounds cynical, but I “hob nob” with people invited to Davos, and run depts at Ivy League schools. Behind closed doors these are the conversations I’ve been privy too. How to captivate the “market” which is a euphemism created years ago to replace the religious concept of “flock”. Mirror neurons really challenge the correctness of any wisdom to come from business leaders. It’s a pantomime, ingratiate ourselves before the socially rich People see taxation as theft of property. I see it as reminding people there are no Gods or kings.
  • _game_of_life 5y ago
    I don't know about mirror neurons personally, but the cult-like behaviour, evangelism, and buzz words in business has been easily observable for decades. Now you go into subreddits like /r/superstonk, bitcoin, GME, Dogecoin, etc. And the cultish religiosity is palpable in these echo chambers too. So I'm not really surprised by this, if what you've shared is true.
  • aeternum 5y ago
    Marketing matters a lot, and NKLA was quite popular or even infamous there. A known brand does have value, even according to 'real economics'. Most investors seem to have been valuing that aspect and completely discounting the engineering/tech.
    • yup00 5y ago
      It helps me to think in terms of particles and waves. A person is a particle and their influence is a wave. I’m not so sure light is both, but our cognition enables seeing it as both. Mirror neurons fire when we engage a behavior or see it performed. Our culture is built upon a meme repeating protectionist like chants for the rich, deflation for the middle class, and stagnation of the poor. Repeat, fire mirror neurons. It’s not perfect mind control though cause once you know how the sausage is made, why give that particle (rich person) reverence?
• pbreit 5y ago
  Still a $5b company: https://www.google.com/finance/quote/NKLA:NASDAQ https://www.google.com/finance/quote/NKLA:NASDAQ
  • robohoe 5y ago
    Which is surprising....do they even have a car in the works?
    • volta83 5y ago
      A friend just bought 2000$ in shares, because "its cheap right now". The only thing the stock price reflects is how valuable the stock is. Nothing more, nothing less. If each person of earth decided that their life goal was to own 100 nikola shares "to feel alive" or "own a piece of their failure" or whatever, their stock price would skyrocket, and stay high as long as everybody holds. Those who value stock in terms of a company fundamentals, are making the assumption that at least most other participants in the market will value the stock in terms of its fundamentals as well. That assumption might be true for some stocks. It isn't true for stocks that "people ""just"" like" (or dislike) and are willing to pay a premium to buy, because it has some other value to them.
      • tim333 5y ago
        >or dislike The disliked ones tend to get valued kind of fairly as even if you hate them they pay dividends or similar.
• belter 5y ago
  At 5 min and 57 sec... https://youtu.be/AJUIaVuqpUs?t=357 https://youtu.be/AJUIaVuqpUs?t=357 Is this whole shebang very different from Tesla FSD claims?
  • simondotau 5y ago
    Very different. Nikola showed a vehicle that absolutely could not do the incredibly basic thing it was shown doing. Tesla has provided FSD beta access to two thousand real people who are showing the system's capability, warts and all, to anyone who cares to watch on YouTube or elsewhere.
• wpietri 5y ago
  I'm glad to see a little accountability happening, but we've been building up to this for a long time as standards have loosened and money flooded in. One startup I happened to follow was uBeam; their former VP of engineering had a great blog called Lies, Damn Lies, and Startup PR that tracked what was going on there. Whether or not it was legally fraud is a matter of debate, but it was certainly dodgy: https://liesandstartuppr.blogspot.com/search/label/ubeam https://liesandstartuppr.blogspot.com/search/label/ubeam I'd be curious to hear about other startups folks here think were somewhere near the borderline of fraud. There must be a lot of stories out there!