20 ms·

Organic and regenerative agriculture are revitalizing rural Montana economies

554 points by DerekBickerton 5y ago

kaycebasques 5y ago
Has anyone here undergone a soil restoration project (big or small)? Did you happen to blog about the progress? There's so much I don't know, like how you even determine that your soil is degraded, or how you measure progress.
- blacktriangle 5y ago
  Not on my own, but I spent some time working on a farm that had been working on soil restoration for roughly a decade. As time went on they had expanded the restoration efforts to new fields, What was awesome though was that they had soil cuts at each field so you could visually see the difference the years were making as the topsoil layer kept getting deeper and deeper.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- kickout 5y ago
  Things like soil organic carbon (SoC) are commonly used measures of progress. Also things like humic acid and other secondary measures of biological can be used. No two patches of 'good' soil are the same, so there is some intuition involved I try and blog a little bit about sustainable ag on thinkingagriculture.io as I work in ag research and am interested in how this meta evolves.
- mattwest 5y ago
  To determine the quality of your soil, you can perform a soil test. In the US, you will most likely find your local university offering this service through their extension agency. It will probably cost around 30 dollars, and you will need to probe samples from different locations on the property. They will assess and give you results. Some of the metrics are: concentration of major nutrients, organic matter content, pH, and CEC (cation exchange capacity). You will also probably receive a list of recommendations.
  - AmrMostafa 5y ago
    In the US, your local National Resources Conservation Service office also provides this service. Costs $7 - $10. Source: https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb1167377.pdf https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb116...
- gdubs 5y ago
  My wife and I bought a farm in Oregon and we're in the process of doing exactly this. We don't have a blog yet – working on it - but we do have an instagram account if anyone's interested: http://instagram.com/cleryfarm/ http://instagram.com/cleryfarm/ The previous owner had a soil test done, and through that we were able to assess how eroded it was (very). We switched the hay fields over to organic practices, but the biggest projects so far have been roughly 20 acres that we've put into conservation, including an oak woodland and an 'upland prairie' - both vanishing ecosystems in the state of Oregon. Long term we're moving towards agroforestry practices, and thinking through the lens of carbon sequestration. In the short term, we've been heavily focused on brush removal, tree limbing, etc, for wildfire prevention and suppression.
  - kaycebasques 5y ago
    Thanks for sharing. I followed your account. Looks like you're creating an idyllic life!
  - floren 5y ago
    I'd really like to know more about your farm--specifics about acreage, crops, location, etc. There's contact info linked from my profile, or if you don't mind dropping your email here, I'd love to pick your brain!
    - gdubs 5y ago
      Sorry for the late reply but DMs on the Instagram page are open if you ever wanted to reach out.
- hahamrfunnyguy 5y ago
  I am doing it on a small and unscientific scale. My soil is silty sand with a pretty neutral PH. I need to add quite a bit of organic material to get plants to thrive. In the past, I'd turn everything over with a shovel each year. This year I went to a no-till method for my annual crops putting down cardboard and woodchips as mulch. If a plant gives me an indication of a deficiency, I will address it. For example, sometimes my tomatoes need a little extra magnesium.
  - 0xffff2 5y ago
    >For example, sometimes my tomatoes need a little extra magnesium. How do you go about determining this? I just built a 400 sq. ft. greenhouse this year, and aside from watching the plants get bigger each day, I'm not really sure how to tell if I'm "doing it right".
- tastyfreeze 5y ago
  Get a shovel and dig a hole where there are some plants growing. You will see a darker layer (soil) on top of a lighter layer. The lighter layer is dirt (sand, silt, clay) without carbon in the form of life and carbohydrates. Progress is measured by the depth of the darker layer. The native prairie had a dark layer filled with roots 30 feet deep. To determine exactly how healthy your soil layer is you will need a microscope to survey the microbiota. If you dont have a microscope you can get an idea of how you are doing by observing how well the soil aggregates and is bound to roots. In healthy soil plants will have soil aggregates stuck to their roots that have to be manually removed. The aggregates are formed by glomalin produced by fungus and bacteria. The more life you see in the soil the healthier it is. Predatory arthropods are a really good indicator. If they are around that means there is food for them.
- artificialLimbs 5y ago
  My wife and I have been heavily influenced by Sepp Holzer, Elaine Ingham, Fukuoka Masanobu, and others in the permaculture/regen ag scene. We bought a plot of land here in Arkansas a year and a half ago and have been working it, and plan to continue doing so with the aim of creating a self sustaining food forest and garden, one outcome of which will necessarily require healthy and strong soil. The ground is rocky and the rain runs off fast. We have been planting trees, bringing in leaf mulch, and leaving the cut grass when we mow. There are a shockingly large number of techniques and things to know about this kind of work. Join some groups on Facebook or IRL, visit with farmers at your local farmers market, and search around and you will be able to get your hands on more info than you can handle.
- willlma 5y ago
  My father is trying to do this on 17 acres of land in Mallorca, Spain. He hasn't been able to find anyone on the island who can do a soil carbon test, but there are ways of visually identifying water retention, insect and fungal life in the soil, etc. Here's his website and instagram if you're interested: https://www.regencampos.es/ https://www.regencampos.es/ https://www.instagram.com/regencampos/ https://www.instagram.com/regencampos/
- Dylanfm 5y ago
  I've started a small market garden here on the far north coast of Scotland (https://www.instagram.com/burnlea.farm https://www.instagram.com/burnlea.farm). Growing veggies for the local community, trees from local seed stock and this year I'm growing some old local varieties of barley (bere barley). The soil on our croft is in a good way, having been left undisturbed for decades (aside from being cut for hay). However, we still need to build fertility and are doing so through compost, ramial woodchip and biodynamic preparations. This combined with a no-till (or minimum till) approach is helping to develop build soil and enhance soil structure. One issue we need to address with this is water management, as it can get very wet here (although we are a few weeks without rain now). For keeping track of fertility in your soil a simple test that many people do is measure organic matter. This isn't something I've done yet. You can also do worm counts. And more detailed soil tests. There are apps out there such as SoilMentor by Vidacycle that guide you in tracking this. Here's a good overview of their tests, which can be done by farmers on site with minimal equipment https://soils.vidacycle.com/soil-tests/ https://soils.vidacycle.com/soil-tests/ You can get a sense of the baseline when starting a project by doing this. But a good indicator would be looking at what plants are growing there already (if any) - weeds etc are indicators of soil characteristics. For example, compaction and drainage. Personally I haven't taken any soil tests yet, I'm just keeping an eye on our crops and getting the sense of things that way. I'll take some tests at some point soon. Simple approaches to this can be pretty handy, for example I've been scything our 2 acre field and it allows me to step over each part of the field noticing how the vegetation changes species-wise and in vigor. Supporting this, I'm also developing an app for market gardens to use for crop planning and record keeping. It's great to be your own customer, plus I'm tapping into a good network of established markets gardens here who are helping to shape the product. I recommend anyone starting a project should read Mark Shepard's new book Water For Any Farm. His master line system, built upon PA Yeoman's keyline and scale of permanence is valuable, especially at an early stage. Equally valuable in dry climates as it is in wet ones.
coldcode 5y ago
Like everything there are costs and benefits; sometimes people only focus on the benefits of "modern" practices and forget the costs associated with them, like stripping the soil, and the expense and side effects of chemicals. Finding a better approach means taking risks and trying new ideas. This applies to programming as well as growing food.
- kickout 5y ago
  Correct, but the current economic incentive structure is set up for short term profits and nobody really cares about the soil quality (except perhaps farmers that own the ground they farm; which even then they are to survive long enough to adapt soil-healthy practices). Right now, farmers (corn/soy/wheat/cotton) are reward on quantity, so they need to increase production and keep costs down. Rightly or wrongly, the prevailing thought is to increase yields rather than cuts costs. There are news systems thinking approaches slowly gaining steam (as the original article is about), but the reality is these things are economically risky. This is why the government needs to divert agricultural subsidy money from its existing criteria to one that requires practices like cover cropping. Importantly the money is already there, we just need to shift how its disbursed and start incentivizing more sustainable practices https://data.ers.usda.gov/reports.aspx?ID=17833 https://data.ers.usda.gov/reports.aspx?ID=17833
- driverdan 5y ago
  > the expense and side effects of chemicals What does that mean? Everything is made of chemicals.
  - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
    From context I’d say they mean fertilizer, pesticides, and herbicides. Edit: you will probably find that many words have multiple meanings, and it is not hard to find words that have one specific technical meaning and a different one in colloquial usage. Organic is another common one.
  - samatman 5y ago
    Yes, words are contextual and don't always mean the same things every time they're used. I had zero difficulty understanding the post you're replying to— and neither did you. It doesn't even annoy me any more, probably because, as a chemist, I got it out of my system years ago. The time one of my second cousins responded to my telling her my major by making a face and saying "I don't like chemicals" does kind of stand out...
black_puppydog 5y ago
"How to save a planet" just has an episode out on the same topic: https://gimletmedia.com/shows/howtosaveaplanet/76hmbge/soil-the-dirty-climate-solution https://gimletmedia.com/shows/howtosaveaplanet/76hmbge/soil-... I found it an interesting listen. Of course it's a fairly shallow entry into the topic, but that's what they are about after all; get you interested, give you pointers for more if you feel like it. Just too bad they'll go spotify-only and thus seize to be a podcast... I'll have to stop recommending (and listening...)
- mooreds 5y ago
  > Just too bad they'll go spotify-only and thus seize to be a podcast... I'll have to stop recommending (and listening...) Yes, that bums me out too. It must make economic sense (for both parties; presumably the data in the app and exclusive content is a win for Spotify), but it's a real bummer that they are moving from a format that lets me, the listener, control how I want to listen, to a format that requires me to download an app. Not gonna happen, but companies will always try to build walled gardens.
  - _huayra_ 5y ago
    I don't know why they just don't use something like Acast which will take care of distribution (or maybe others I don't know of). The worst part of it is that Spotify's android app is buggy. Actually, that's an understatement: it's garbage. I shouldn't have it hang waiting for network connection just to navigate the offline portions of the app (e.g. downloaded podcasts). Anyone who writes a simple "music player" android app in a weekend or two could handle that case far better.
    - kilovoltaire 5y ago
      I assume any Spotify-only podcast is because Spotify is paying them to be exclusive?
      - topkai22 5y ago
        Spotify bought Gimlet (the podcast company) a few years back, so they presumably owned the rights to begin with.
iorek_dev 5y ago
For those who are interested in the topic of soil reconstruction and balance in nature, some more sources: Documentary on the Loess plateau in China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjLV_aVRUmQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjLV_aVRUmQ Talk on the Caledonian Forest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAGHUkby2Is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAGHUkby2Is Talk on using the "herd effect" in Africa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7pI7IYaJLI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7pI7IYaJLI A talk presenting a realistic view on soil reconstruction, what IMO is the best argument to convince farmers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmIdq0D6-A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmIdq0D6-A
- tastyfreeze 5y ago
  That Gabe Brown video convinced me a couple years ago. I agree, it is the most convincing soil health video and I share it every chance I get.
  - andscoop 5y ago
    His book, Dirt To Soil, is what convinced me. It was the first time in a while that I felt optimism about the future of the planet. It also changed how I viewed the morals of meat consumption.
- tagami 5y ago
  Thank you for the added resource links
stevespang 5y ago
Most apparent was the $200,000 in annual costs one of the farming operations saved by dumping the agro-chemical suppliers herbicides and pesticides.
- hanniabu 5y ago
  I think I read that many farmers are required to use them by contract. If that's the case then a lot of farmers don't have that luxury.
  - kickout 5y ago
    No, just no. This is 100% false. You are not required to use ANY chemical on ANY crop in the united states. It's it 100% a voluntary decision. Why so many people make the decision to use these chemicals is another discussion. Chemicals like roundup where so effective they changed agriculture production in unforeseen ways (like we lost institutional knowledge on how to successfully grow crops without them). The fact that mother nature is rendering all chemicals (glyposate, glufosinate, dicamba, 2,4-d) ineffective is predictable. Mother nature also had the mechanisms to combat these chemicals, but it happened quicker than most people thought. We also didn't have 2nd and 3rd generation tools (re: not chemicals) ready to go when the chemicals failed. So we're stuck on treadmill. There are solutions though...
    - jbotz 5y ago
      > Chemicals like roundup where so effective they changed agriculture production in unforeseen ways And some of those changes were significant positives not only for agricultural productivity, but also for the environment. The biggest of these is the reduced or eliminated tillage... tilling the soil several times a year with heavy machinery was the biggest contributor to soil degradation and even outright soil loss. First, after tilling, some of the soil literally blows away with the wind. Second, organic residue in freshly tilled soil decomposes rapidly to CO2 and Methane, versus healthy untilled soil where a significant portion of it would decompose to long-term stable humic and vulvic substances... so we have a double negative where we're increasing the global warming contribution and decreasing the capacity of the soil for retaining nutrients. I've dabbled in farming, and I'm no fan of glyphosate, and certainly not of Monsanto, but I think it's important to point this out because certain knee-jerk reactions, like "ban glyphosate" by themselves are only likely to make things worse. If you ban glyphosate for example, one of two things is likely to happen... 1) it will be replaced by even worse chemicals, or 2) people go back to frequent tilling. There are no quick fixes to industrial agriculture, the only solution is to move toward highly integrated regenerative approaches, and these are by their nature much more complex and labor intensive. It's great that there are more and more people doing that, but big ag keeps them operating at the margins of our food supply.
datavirtue 5y ago
I just got back from touring Oregon and Washington and I got to see a lot of fascinating agriculture. Primarily hazelnut trees along with some berries other speciality crops and "hay." The nut tree farmers need some help. They are spraying water scattershot to soak the ground. What's more is that they have the ground prepared as perfectly flat bare soil--I presume to make automated harvesting possible. It looks like a lot of resources are allocated to this rather imprecise method of irrigation and as the droughts and heat persist I could see this failing to scale. It doesn't look like it scales very well even in good times. I was wondering, given the very organized situation of the trees and ground, why are they not using direct or site-based (drip?) irrigation? It would definitely change the watering process from one of rolling and unrolling irrigation line and towing of sprinklers (water canons?) to one where you would automate water delivery via a network of lines with computers and have workers monitor and repair lines as needed.
- mastax 5y ago
  Drip irrigation works best when delivering water directly to the roots of small annual plants. Trees have large root systems, and are planted closely enough that you need to water the entire ground. Perhaps a network of smaller sprayers below the leaf canopy would reduce evaporative losses.
  - kickout 5y ago
    There does exist sub-surface irrigation setups. They aren't popular, but obviously would deliver water closer to the roots of tree. Note: I haven't ever seen a tree farm with sub-surface irrigation, only annual fruits/vegetables/crops https://extension.colostate.edu/topic-areas/agriculture/subsurface-drip-irrigation-sdi-4-716/ https://extension.colostate.edu/topic-areas/agriculture/subs...
  - cjrp 5y ago
    I wonder if there's any benefit to water hitting the leaves on the way down to the soil, i.e. cleaning the leaves. I know indoor plants require cleaning, but perhaps that's specifically because they're indoors.
blueyes 5y ago
Montanan here: This is true. One of the regenerative crop types are pulses (lentils, chick peas), and MT produces a lot. https://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/pulse-info/resources-pdf/Growing%20lentils%20in%20Montana.pdf https://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/pulse-info/resources-pdf/Growing... The state often appears in stories about agriculture in precarious environments (See Jared Diamond's "Collapse" for one example.) Montana is largely a semi-arid desert, especially over the 2/3's of the state that are northern Great Plains. East of the continental divide, it gets about 10" of rain per year, which is about a quarter of the US average. And with climate change, it is more precarious. Temperatures have been unusually high this summer, and it's fire season now. Weather has become more volatile. (Cherry crops on the Flathead have been destroyed two of the last three years.)
- greenie_beans 5y ago
  where would one go to read about the cherry crops on the flathead? (such a lovely area!)
  - blueyes 5y ago
    For news about the cherry harvests you could go to the Daily Interlake, a newspaper published in Kalispell, or the Flathead Beacon: https://dailyinterlake.com/news/2021/jul/03/growers-expect-early-fruitful-cherry-harvest/ https://dailyinterlake.com/news/2021/jul/03/growers-expect-e... https://flatheadbeacon.com/?s=cherry https://flatheadbeacon.com/?s=cherry
- pacerwpg 5y ago
  Interesting, I saw a map show chick peas as being a big crop in that region and thought it was surprising, just because it's not seen as a huge money crop.
- danans 5y ago
  > Lentils (Lens culinaris Medik.) are produced on over 1.5 million acres throughout the world. They are primarily used for domestic consumption in casseroles, salads, soups and stews. Lentils provide an excellent source of protein (20 to 35 percent), but are limited in the sulphur-containing amino acids methionine and cystine. However, consumption of lentils with cereals provides a balanced diet high in fiber, protein and essential amino acids. > Lentils in the United States are primarily grown for export. Growing lentils is a great idea, but the developed and developing worlds' palates also need to also change course toward consuming less climate-damaging foods like meat and more lentils, chickpeas, and other pulses. Already today, pea protein is a major constituent of the newer more realistic meat-substitutes, which is a good trend, but if most lentils just end up being exported and used as some sort of livestock feed, it will make little differences to the climate and environmental issues we are experiencing.
slumdev 5y ago
Please make this a hill that a large and vocal political group is willing to die on. There are ways to prevent the desertification of the United States, and they don't involve PhDs and lobbying.
songzme 5y ago
There's a guy in Montana called Paul Wheaton who spent the last 6 years building soil rich in organic matter using no chemicals (pesticides & biocides) in his 200 acre plot of land. There were giant hugelkultur beds 15 ft high it was a crazy sight. He believes that in a decade the soil will be so rich in organic matter with healthy microbial activity (with no chemical history) could produce food that cures cancer. I believe that in an environment where human body is not weakened by the constant bombardment of chemical compounds, it could heal itself from cancer. He has a bootcamp and I took 2 weeks off from work to try it out in January and I learned alot just by being there. https://wheaton-labs.com/bootcamp/ https://wheaton-labs.com/bootcamp/ After that experience I couldn't focus on work anymore so I quit my job (I have 2 years worth of savings) and now my days are spent trying to restore the soil in my backyard.
- blevin 5y ago
  January in MT is no joke. Were the activities in that part of the year more on the theory end? Did you have to wait long between your reservation and getting a spot?
  - songzme 5y ago
    I registered in November and was able to get a spot for January. The winter was a really good time because there weren't there many people (because of weather) and I got to ask all the questions I wanted. We mainly worked on a greenhouse that keeps water from freezing in Montana winters using the earth's thermal energy and no electricity: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/paulwheaton/greenhouse-1 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/paulwheaton/greenhouse-...
- mathgladiator 5y ago
  There feels like a deep truth to the constant assault of man-hand compounds in relation to our health. I recently started fasting every other day, and I've noticed odd issues just clearing up on their own. I'd wager the down-votes related to the claims around curing cancer, but there is reason to pursue this. I'm self experimenting on myself and wife since the wife has an auto-immune issue (MS). She was on the anti-gluten train way before it was fashionable since there is an immediate cause and effect for her without celiacs. We really should question all of our practices and values.
durkie 5y ago
Is there an economic argument to be made for increasing the amount of money spent in the local economy? I often hear it cited as a benefit in situations like this, and it has a certain feel-good quality to it, but instinctively it feels like it means people pay higher prices: if you're buying seed from the local seed & feed, it's almost certainly more expensive than if you buy it from XYZ megacorp.
- majormajor 5y ago
  Beyond just the an outsourcing-style one? Where the local circulation is more important than the immediate sticker price? Giving your money to someone else local means they can purchase stuff from someone else local who then can purchase stuff from someone else local, etc... vs that money being out of the local economy entirely.
- jeffreyrogers 5y ago
  Maybe not a strictly economic one, but probably a socioeconomic one: that keeping more money in local communities helps those communities to be better places to live. Whether that is true or not, I don't know. It's definitely true that corporate concentration has been increasing and that many of these communities are in decline.
  - durkie 5y ago
    There are definitely plenty of towns I've been to in rural America (north GA) that are clearly hollow shells of their former selves. And it's way more fun and interesting to be in a place that does have a thriving local economy. The socioeconomic benefits are clear. I'm just wondering if theres a way to frame it in economic terms, or if everything about resiliency, more local jobs, etc. are basically all "externalities".
- louis___ 5y ago
  There is often an array of benefits. Following on your example, if you buy seed from the local seed & feed, you : - build resilience, for example if a global pandemic prevents far-reaching import-export - are less subject to geopolitics - money invested have a higher chance to stay in the local economy : the owner of the local seed & feed may buy its vegetables from you - create local jobs : this seed & feed owner may be able to create jobs for people - overall avoid the lock-in that you can have being tied to XYZ megacorp, for example if they now decide to only sell you seed that will grow with their newly branded feed - preserve local folklore : maybe there is a kind of seed that grows really well on your soil, but not so much in the others, so XYZ has decided to discontinue it because the market is too small to be profitable
zomdar 5y ago
Lol i love that his name is john wicks
jeffreyrogers 5y ago
What is the best criticism of regenerative ag? Everything I see about it is so positive that it seems crazy everyone hasn't switched. Are there really no downsides and it's just institutional inertia/caution holding everyone back?
- louis___ 5y ago
  It's more that it requires to leave the mainstream system, because the fertilizer and pesticides that destroyed your soil are the money-making machines of "Big Ag" corporations. Regenerative ag will not make you very rich either, so you have not much money to invest in lobbying activities, to go against the flow.
  - andscoop 5y ago
    > Regenerative ag will not make you rich… How do you figure? Regenerative ag is still relatively new, and it’s practices are being honed. Idk what you define as rich but I’d venture to guess that Joel Salatin and Gabe Brown are extremely wealthy.
- saalweachter 5y ago
  Honestly? My biggest concern about it is that half its advocates say crazy things. For instance, down-thread we got the line: "[Paul Wheaton] believes that in a decade the soil will be so rich in organic matter with healthy microbial activity (with no chemical history) could produce food that cures cancer. I believe that in an environment where human body is not weakened by the constant bombardment of chemical compounds, it could heal itself from cancer." I do my best to keep an open mind because, hey, a lot of bits and pieces sound plausible, but whenever I get to lines about cancer-curing food, I begin to doubt the truth, validity or factual nature of anything else that was said on the topic. Aside from that, the biggest question is always going to be "Does it scale to growing sufficient food for 10 billion people?" Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but whenever food comes up keep in mind that end game. If a particular agricultural system could produce food at lower energy costs, more sustainably, "better", but could only feed a billion people applied globally, it's only an acceptable solution in very particular moral frameworks.
zachware 5y ago
Organic and regenerative ag are built on the assumption that crops must be grown in open air soil. The reality is that crops can be grown in open air soil and, if they are, regenerative ag in particular is significantly better for soil longevity. That said it is not necessarily better to produce all crops in low density, high volatility, season dependent environments. Some material % of crops can move to more intelligent indoor settings where yields are higher, weather isn't a factor, and production yields can be scheduled without risk of weather impact. I'm actually a partner in one of these high volume operations in Montana (randomly). Uses less water, has zero soil impact, requires little to no chemical agents and is predictable. What I hope will continue is crops that are capable of producing profitable and predictable yields in indoor environments will move more and more in that direction. This could serve to reduce soil stress and leave soil for crops that need more space (e.g. tubers) and livestock to aid in improving soil longevity. Note this is not a plug for vertical farming. That's an entirely different mirage of financial engineering.
- jasonlaramburu 5y ago
  What criteria (crop type, geography, etc) are required for the benefits you outline of indoor ag to outweigh the energy cost of artificial lighting?
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    > What criteria (crop type, geography, etc) are required for the benefits you outline of indoor ag to outweigh the energy cost of artificial lighting? Massive amounts of government regulation that inflates the price. I.e. just weed so far.
  - kickout 5y ago
    It's mostly high margin vegetables and spices. Look up gotham greens for a successul and properly done indoor ag startup. Generally tomatoes and maybe peppers have enough margin and volume to be justify indoor settings. Things like nuts are a no-go or any sort of wheat/cotton/maize/soybean operation (even specialty applications like edamame have severe uphill battles to profitability)
evtothedev 5y ago
If you're a UI/UX designer, and this area excites you, please drop me a line. We're tackling this exact problem at Yard Stick (https://www.useyardstick.com/ https://www.useyardstick.com/) - developing a new way to measure soil carbon that is fast, accurate and affordable, with backing by ARPA-E and in collaboration with the Soil Health Institute. Later this week, I'm going to post a contract-to-hire position. In the meantime, email me at evan@useyardstick.com
- roldie 5y ago
  I'm not sure how much time I could commit, but at the very least I could help spread the word. What kind of involvement are you looking for design-wise?
  - evtothedev 5y ago
    Ideally full time. As you might imagine, the space is technical & complicated, and I suspect that delivering elegant designs would require quite some time to get up to speed.
- eightysixfour 5y ago
  I work for a design consultancy with a heavy emphasis on user research. Are you only open to working with individuals or would you be open to working with a consultancy? This sounds like an awesome design problem.
songzme 5y ago
If you are still buying groceries from supermarkets, it is in your best interest to change that habit and buy organic only. Food co-ops usually tend to store organic only so they are great places to buy your groceries. Organic ensures that the soil where your food came from had no prohibited substances (most synthetic fertilizers and pesticides) applied for three years. Chances are, if you are buying food from supermarkets without the organic label, your food probably came from a farm that uses unhealthy synthetic fertilizers that may attribute to health issues later down the road. Unless you know your restaurant is cooking with organic food, they are probably not so it is best to eat out sparingly and learn to cook with your own delicious food with your organic ingredients. If you want to step up your game, you could also buy organic clothes (aka clothes that came from plants / animal) that came from soil without prohibited substances. Your body is covered most of the day so it's better to be on the healthier side. Obviously, the label "organic" doesn't mean you are getting the best because there is still alot of room for improvement. Organic still allows some form of pesticides and fertilizers and has next to nothing about the organic matter in your soil (which determine how nutritious your food would be). The article mentions regenerative organic certification, which addresses the shortcomings for organic labels. If we, as consumers, demand for the highest quality food, it turns out to be good for the soil and the long term health of the earth too! Hands down, if you have a space for your own garden or even pots at home, you could easily grow food that are more nutritious than any food you can find in a grocery store. Optimize for organic matter in your soil. The higher the organic matter, the more nutritious your food is. Most of the agricultural soil that grows food has about 3-6% organic matter, you can easily get it above 10% at home. So if you have time on your hands, you should try growing the food you eat most regularly at home.
- pbk1 5y ago
  Setting aside the environmental concerns (which are important, and indirectly health-adjacent), are there material health reasons to eat organic? This Mayo Clinic article [0] points to pretty minor improvements, would love if someone could point me to evidence substantiating OP's claim, or maybe which products in particular are materially healthier if produced organically. [0] https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/organic-food/art-20043880 https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-h...
metalliqaz 5y ago
On this topic, I would suggest reading Animal, Vegetable, Junk: A History of Food, from Sustainable to Suicidal [1]. It's a great book on an issue that everyone should understand. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Animal-Vegetable-Junk-Sustainable-Suicidal/dp/1328974626 https://www.amazon.com/Animal-Vegetable-Junk-Sustainable-Sui...
vicarrion 5y ago
At Indigo we're working on incentivizing farmers to adopt regenerative practices and get paid for sequestering carbon. There's a number of open positions, most with the option to be remote! https://www.indigoag.com/carbon https://www.indigoag.com/carbon https://www.indigoag.com/join-us https://www.indigoag.com/join-us
- kickout 5y ago
  Indigo and every other ag player. Space saturated quickly. Now people need to find ways to fund the 10-40 per acre benefits long-term...
  - groby_b 5y ago
    Would you mind elaborating what you meant with that comment? What are the "10-40 per acre benefits"?
    - kickout 5y ago
      Whoops. Meant to be 10-40 $$, USD per acre. That range seems to be the most common direct payment for farmers to adapt regenerative or sustainable practices on their farm. It depends where in the country and what method is used to determine payment (usually). It’s a very, very new method but it basically means paying farmers—- that money has to come from somewhere as usually farmers pay companies
      - groby_b 5y ago
        Ah, got it - thank you for the explanation. I’m not familiar with this space, so I had no idea that practice existed!
- pkaye 5y ago
  Sounds like an interesting approach. I'm glad there are people working of these issues. When I read this article I was thinking something like this is needed to incentivize the farmers.
- 5y ago
worik 5y ago
"In 2018 they went cold turkey on both pesticide and fertilizer, reducing their operational costs by $200,000 from the previous year, " I think that is going to be the property of this sort of agriculture that makes it really popular. Pity they cannot get carbon credits for the increase in top soil. Or can they?
emilywolfe 5y ago
Emily Wolfe here, I’m the person who wrote this story. As I plan the second story in the series, which will be about new markets related to organic and regenerative, I’m curious to know a couple of things: -isn’t this a tech/VC blog? How is it that so many of you are so interested in and knowledgeable about agriculture? -what about this story made you want to discuss it here? Looking forward to learning more!
- underdeserver 5y ago
  It's not a blog, it's a user-submitted news story aggregator. And we the users are nerds, and while most of us work in software engineering, we're interested in everything and anything deep and tech/science related.
  - kungito 5y ago
    Often times I feel interested in anything but software engineering
- evv555 5y ago
  >isn’t this a tech/VC blog? How is it that so many of you are so interested in and knowledgeable about agriculture? It's a moderated forum of scientists, engineers, and intellectuals. ycombinator was one of the original VC funders of reddit and decided to use the same idea for its VC community.
  - naasking 5y ago
    > It's a moderated forum of scientists, engineers, and intellectuals. There sure are a lot of stereotypes about tech enthusiasts. Hackers are interested in hacking nature too! ;-)
- te_chris 5y ago
  Personally, I’m fascinated by the system aspect of regenerative (etc.) ag. A lot of what I do as a tech CTO is systems based, but realistically we’re just mere amateurs compared to nature. Plus screens are boring.
akeck 5y ago
Gabe Brown's talk is my favorite introduction to regenerative ag: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmIdq0D6-A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmIdq0D6-A He did a book on it: https://www.chelseagreen.com/product/dirt-to-soil/ https://www.chelseagreen.com/product/dirt-to-soil/ I also like Geoff Lawton's work on food forests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgF9BU4uYMU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgF9BU4uYMU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCJfSYZqZ0Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCJfSYZqZ0Y
Floegipoky 5y ago
I'm glad to see formerly conventional farmers adopting no-till and other regenerative practices, but it's crazy to me that they're still trying to plant hundreds of hectares in monocrop. Baby steps, I guess. Maybe there's just no other way to make the economics work with so little rainfall?
emilywolfe 5y ago
Now that I see there’s such a hunger for this kind of storytelling, I want to build on what I’ve done in part 1. To do so, I’m seeking to fully fund parts 2 and 3 of this series, so I can continue digging deeply and telling stories of great characters. What ideas do you have for individuals/entities that might be interested? The money would go through the publisher, which is a 501 c3 nonprofit. Thank you all for such a great conversation here and asking such thought-provoking questions!
- evv555 5y ago
  There's a ycombinator startup for this. https://substack.com/ https://substack.com/

Has anyone here undergone a soil restoration project (big or small)? Did you happen to blog about the progress? There's so much I don't know, like how you even determine that your soil is degraded, or how you measure progress.

blacktriangle 5y ago
Not on my own, but I spent some time working on a farm that had been working on soil restoration for roughly a decade. As time went on they had expanded the restoration efforts to new fields, What was awesome though was that they had soil cuts at each field so you could visually see the difference the years were making as the topsoil layer kept getting deeper and deeper.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
kickout 5y ago
Things like soil organic carbon (SoC) are commonly used measures of progress. Also things like humic acid and other secondary measures of biological can be used. No two patches of 'good' soil are the same, so there is some intuition involved I try and blog a little bit about sustainable ag on thinkingagriculture.io as I work in ag research and am interested in how this meta evolves.
mattwest 5y ago
To determine the quality of your soil, you can perform a soil test. In the US, you will most likely find your local university offering this service through their extension agency. It will probably cost around 30 dollars, and you will need to probe samples from different locations on the property. They will assess and give you results. Some of the metrics are: concentration of major nutrients, organic matter content, pH, and CEC (cation exchange capacity). You will also probably receive a list of recommendations.
- AmrMostafa 5y ago
  In the US, your local National Resources Conservation Service office also provides this service. Costs $7 - $10. Source: https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb1167377.pdf https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb116...
gdubs 5y ago
My wife and I bought a farm in Oregon and we're in the process of doing exactly this. We don't have a blog yet – working on it - but we do have an instagram account if anyone's interested: http://instagram.com/cleryfarm/ http://instagram.com/cleryfarm/ The previous owner had a soil test done, and through that we were able to assess how eroded it was (very). We switched the hay fields over to organic practices, but the biggest projects so far have been roughly 20 acres that we've put into conservation, including an oak woodland and an 'upland prairie' - both vanishing ecosystems in the state of Oregon. Long term we're moving towards agroforestry practices, and thinking through the lens of carbon sequestration. In the short term, we've been heavily focused on brush removal, tree limbing, etc, for wildfire prevention and suppression.
- kaycebasques 5y ago
  Thanks for sharing. I followed your account. Looks like you're creating an idyllic life!
- floren 5y ago
  I'd really like to know more about your farm--specifics about acreage, crops, location, etc. There's contact info linked from my profile, or if you don't mind dropping your email here, I'd love to pick your brain!
  - gdubs 5y ago
    Sorry for the late reply but DMs on the Instagram page are open if you ever wanted to reach out.
hahamrfunnyguy 5y ago
I am doing it on a small and unscientific scale. My soil is silty sand with a pretty neutral PH. I need to add quite a bit of organic material to get plants to thrive. In the past, I'd turn everything over with a shovel each year. This year I went to a no-till method for my annual crops putting down cardboard and woodchips as mulch. If a plant gives me an indication of a deficiency, I will address it. For example, sometimes my tomatoes need a little extra magnesium.
- 0xffff2 5y ago
  >For example, sometimes my tomatoes need a little extra magnesium. How do you go about determining this? I just built a 400 sq. ft. greenhouse this year, and aside from watching the plants get bigger each day, I'm not really sure how to tell if I'm "doing it right".
tastyfreeze 5y ago
Get a shovel and dig a hole where there are some plants growing. You will see a darker layer (soil) on top of a lighter layer. The lighter layer is dirt (sand, silt, clay) without carbon in the form of life and carbohydrates. Progress is measured by the depth of the darker layer. The native prairie had a dark layer filled with roots 30 feet deep. To determine exactly how healthy your soil layer is you will need a microscope to survey the microbiota. If you dont have a microscope you can get an idea of how you are doing by observing how well the soil aggregates and is bound to roots. In healthy soil plants will have soil aggregates stuck to their roots that have to be manually removed. The aggregates are formed by glomalin produced by fungus and bacteria. The more life you see in the soil the healthier it is. Predatory arthropods are a really good indicator. If they are around that means there is food for them.
artificialLimbs 5y ago
My wife and I have been heavily influenced by Sepp Holzer, Elaine Ingham, Fukuoka Masanobu, and others in the permaculture/regen ag scene. We bought a plot of land here in Arkansas a year and a half ago and have been working it, and plan to continue doing so with the aim of creating a self sustaining food forest and garden, one outcome of which will necessarily require healthy and strong soil. The ground is rocky and the rain runs off fast. We have been planting trees, bringing in leaf mulch, and leaving the cut grass when we mow. There are a shockingly large number of techniques and things to know about this kind of work. Join some groups on Facebook or IRL, visit with farmers at your local farmers market, and search around and you will be able to get your hands on more info than you can handle.
willlma 5y ago
My father is trying to do this on 17 acres of land in Mallorca, Spain. He hasn't been able to find anyone on the island who can do a soil carbon test, but there are ways of visually identifying water retention, insect and fungal life in the soil, etc. Here's his website and instagram if you're interested: https://www.regencampos.es/ https://www.regencampos.es/ https://www.instagram.com/regencampos/ https://www.instagram.com/regencampos/
Dylanfm 5y ago
I've started a small market garden here on the far north coast of Scotland (https://www.instagram.com/burnlea.farm https://www.instagram.com/burnlea.farm). Growing veggies for the local community, trees from local seed stock and this year I'm growing some old local varieties of barley (bere barley). The soil on our croft is in a good way, having been left undisturbed for decades (aside from being cut for hay). However, we still need to build fertility and are doing so through compost, ramial woodchip and biodynamic preparations. This combined with a no-till (or minimum till) approach is helping to develop build soil and enhance soil structure. One issue we need to address with this is water management, as it can get very wet here (although we are a few weeks without rain now). For keeping track of fertility in your soil a simple test that many people do is measure organic matter. This isn't something I've done yet. You can also do worm counts. And more detailed soil tests. There are apps out there such as SoilMentor by Vidacycle that guide you in tracking this. Here's a good overview of their tests, which can be done by farmers on site with minimal equipment https://soils.vidacycle.com/soil-tests/ https://soils.vidacycle.com/soil-tests/ You can get a sense of the baseline when starting a project by doing this. But a good indicator would be looking at what plants are growing there already (if any) - weeds etc are indicators of soil characteristics. For example, compaction and drainage. Personally I haven't taken any soil tests yet, I'm just keeping an eye on our crops and getting the sense of things that way. I'll take some tests at some point soon. Simple approaches to this can be pretty handy, for example I've been scything our 2 acre field and it allows me to step over each part of the field noticing how the vegetation changes species-wise and in vigor. Supporting this, I'm also developing an app for market gardens to use for crop planning and record keeping. It's great to be your own customer, plus I'm tapping into a good network of established markets gardens here who are helping to shape the product. I recommend anyone starting a project should read Mark Shepard's new book Water For Any Farm. His master line system, built upon PA Yeoman's keyline and scale of permanence is valuable, especially at an early stage. Equally valuable in dry climates as it is in wet ones.

coldcode 5y ago

Like everything there are costs and benefits; sometimes people only focus on the benefits of "modern" practices and forget the costs associated with them, like stripping the soil, and the expense and side effects of chemicals. Finding a better approach means taking risks and trying new ideas. This applies to programming as well as growing food.

kickout 5y ago
Correct, but the current economic incentive structure is set up for short term profits and nobody really cares about the soil quality (except perhaps farmers that own the ground they farm; which even then they are to survive long enough to adapt soil-healthy practices). Right now, farmers (corn/soy/wheat/cotton) are reward on quantity, so they need to increase production and keep costs down. Rightly or wrongly, the prevailing thought is to increase yields rather than cuts costs. There are news systems thinking approaches slowly gaining steam (as the original article is about), but the reality is these things are economically risky. This is why the government needs to divert agricultural subsidy money from its existing criteria to one that requires practices like cover cropping. Importantly the money is already there, we just need to shift how its disbursed and start incentivizing more sustainable practices https://data.ers.usda.gov/reports.aspx?ID=17833 https://data.ers.usda.gov/reports.aspx?ID=17833
driverdan 5y ago
> the expense and side effects of chemicals What does that mean? Everything is made of chemicals.
- amanaplanacanal 5y ago
  From context I’d say they mean fertilizer, pesticides, and herbicides. Edit: you will probably find that many words have multiple meanings, and it is not hard to find words that have one specific technical meaning and a different one in colloquial usage. Organic is another common one.
- samatman 5y ago
  Yes, words are contextual and don't always mean the same things every time they're used. I had zero difficulty understanding the post you're replying to— and neither did you. It doesn't even annoy me any more, probably because, as a chemist, I got it out of my system years ago. The time one of my second cousins responded to my telling her my major by making a face and saying "I don't like chemicals" does kind of stand out...

black_puppydog 5y ago

"How to save a planet" just has an episode out on the same topic: https://gimletmedia.com/shows/howtosaveaplanet/76hmbge/soil-the-dirty-climate-solution https://gimletmedia.com/shows/howtosaveaplanet/76hmbge/soil-... I found it an interesting listen. Of course it's a fairly shallow entry into the topic, but that's what they are about after all; get you interested, give you pointers for more if you feel like it. Just too bad they'll go spotify-only and thus seize to be a podcast... I'll have to stop recommending (and listening...)

mooreds 5y ago
> Just too bad they'll go spotify-only and thus seize to be a podcast... I'll have to stop recommending (and listening...) Yes, that bums me out too. It must make economic sense (for both parties; presumably the data in the app and exclusive content is a win for Spotify), but it's a real bummer that they are moving from a format that lets me, the listener, control how I want to listen, to a format that requires me to download an app. Not gonna happen, but companies will always try to build walled gardens.
- _huayra_ 5y ago
  I don't know why they just don't use something like Acast which will take care of distribution (or maybe others I don't know of). The worst part of it is that Spotify's android app is buggy. Actually, that's an understatement: it's garbage. I shouldn't have it hang waiting for network connection just to navigate the offline portions of the app (e.g. downloaded podcasts). Anyone who writes a simple "music player" android app in a weekend or two could handle that case far better.
  - kilovoltaire 5y ago
    I assume any Spotify-only podcast is because Spotify is paying them to be exclusive?
    - topkai22 5y ago
      Spotify bought Gimlet (the podcast company) a few years back, so they presumably owned the rights to begin with.

iorek_dev 5y ago

For those who are interested in the topic of soil reconstruction and balance in nature, some more sources: Documentary on the Loess plateau in China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjLV_aVRUmQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjLV_aVRUmQ Talk on the Caledonian Forest: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAGHUkby2Is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAGHUkby2Is Talk on using the "herd effect" in Africa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7pI7IYaJLI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7pI7IYaJLI A talk presenting a realistic view on soil reconstruction, what IMO is the best argument to convince farmers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmIdq0D6-A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmIdq0D6-A

tastyfreeze 5y ago
That Gabe Brown video convinced me a couple years ago. I agree, it is the most convincing soil health video and I share it every chance I get.
- andscoop 5y ago
  His book, Dirt To Soil, is what convinced me. It was the first time in a while that I felt optimism about the future of the planet. It also changed how I viewed the morals of meat consumption.
tagami 5y ago
Thank you for the added resource links

stevespang 5y ago

Most apparent was the $200,000 in annual costs one of the farming operations saved by dumping the agro-chemical suppliers herbicides and pesticides.

hanniabu 5y ago
I think I read that many farmers are required to use them by contract. If that's the case then a lot of farmers don't have that luxury.
- kickout 5y ago
  No, just no. This is 100% false. You are not required to use ANY chemical on ANY crop in the united states. It's it 100% a voluntary decision. Why so many people make the decision to use these chemicals is another discussion. Chemicals like roundup where so effective they changed agriculture production in unforeseen ways (like we lost institutional knowledge on how to successfully grow crops without them). The fact that mother nature is rendering all chemicals (glyposate, glufosinate, dicamba, 2,4-d) ineffective is predictable. Mother nature also had the mechanisms to combat these chemicals, but it happened quicker than most people thought. We also didn't have 2nd and 3rd generation tools (re: not chemicals) ready to go when the chemicals failed. So we're stuck on treadmill. There are solutions though...
  - jbotz 5y ago
    > Chemicals like roundup where so effective they changed agriculture production in unforeseen ways And some of those changes were significant positives not only for agricultural productivity, but also for the environment. The biggest of these is the reduced or eliminated tillage... tilling the soil several times a year with heavy machinery was the biggest contributor to soil degradation and even outright soil loss. First, after tilling, some of the soil literally blows away with the wind. Second, organic residue in freshly tilled soil decomposes rapidly to CO2 and Methane, versus healthy untilled soil where a significant portion of it would decompose to long-term stable humic and vulvic substances... so we have a double negative where we're increasing the global warming contribution and decreasing the capacity of the soil for retaining nutrients. I've dabbled in farming, and I'm no fan of glyphosate, and certainly not of Monsanto, but I think it's important to point this out because certain knee-jerk reactions, like "ban glyphosate" by themselves are only likely to make things worse. If you ban glyphosate for example, one of two things is likely to happen... 1) it will be replaced by even worse chemicals, or 2) people go back to frequent tilling. There are no quick fixes to industrial agriculture, the only solution is to move toward highly integrated regenerative approaches, and these are by their nature much more complex and labor intensive. It's great that there are more and more people doing that, but big ag keeps them operating at the margins of our food supply.

datavirtue 5y ago

I just got back from touring Oregon and Washington and I got to see a lot of fascinating agriculture. Primarily hazelnut trees along with some berries other speciality crops and "hay." The nut tree farmers need some help. They are spraying water scattershot to soak the ground. What's more is that they have the ground prepared as perfectly flat bare soil--I presume to make automated harvesting possible. It looks like a lot of resources are allocated to this rather imprecise method of irrigation and as the droughts and heat persist I could see this failing to scale. It doesn't look like it scales very well even in good times. I was wondering, given the very organized situation of the trees and ground, why are they not using direct or site-based (drip?) irrigation? It would definitely change the watering process from one of rolling and unrolling irrigation line and towing of sprinklers (water canons?) to one where you would automate water delivery via a network of lines with computers and have workers monitor and repair lines as needed.

mastax 5y ago
Drip irrigation works best when delivering water directly to the roots of small annual plants. Trees have large root systems, and are planted closely enough that you need to water the entire ground. Perhaps a network of smaller sprayers below the leaf canopy would reduce evaporative losses.
- kickout 5y ago
  There does exist sub-surface irrigation setups. They aren't popular, but obviously would deliver water closer to the roots of tree. Note: I haven't ever seen a tree farm with sub-surface irrigation, only annual fruits/vegetables/crops https://extension.colostate.edu/topic-areas/agriculture/subsurface-drip-irrigation-sdi-4-716/ https://extension.colostate.edu/topic-areas/agriculture/subs...
- cjrp 5y ago
  I wonder if there's any benefit to water hitting the leaves on the way down to the soil, i.e. cleaning the leaves. I know indoor plants require cleaning, but perhaps that's specifically because they're indoors.

blueyes 5y ago

Montanan here: This is true. One of the regenerative crop types are pulses (lentils, chick peas), and MT produces a lot. https://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/pulse-info/resources-pdf/Growing%20lentils%20in%20Montana.pdf https://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/pulse-info/resources-pdf/Growing... The state often appears in stories about agriculture in precarious environments (See Jared Diamond's "Collapse" for one example.) Montana is largely a semi-arid desert, especially over the 2/3's of the state that are northern Great Plains. East of the continental divide, it gets about 10" of rain per year, which is about a quarter of the US average. And with climate change, it is more precarious. Temperatures have been unusually high this summer, and it's fire season now. Weather has become more volatile. (Cherry crops on the Flathead have been destroyed two of the last three years.)

greenie_beans 5y ago
where would one go to read about the cherry crops on the flathead? (such a lovely area!)
- blueyes 5y ago
  For news about the cherry harvests you could go to the Daily Interlake, a newspaper published in Kalispell, or the Flathead Beacon: https://dailyinterlake.com/news/2021/jul/03/growers-expect-early-fruitful-cherry-harvest/ https://dailyinterlake.com/news/2021/jul/03/growers-expect-e... https://flatheadbeacon.com/?s=cherry https://flatheadbeacon.com/?s=cherry
pacerwpg 5y ago
Interesting, I saw a map show chick peas as being a big crop in that region and thought it was surprising, just because it's not seen as a huge money crop.
danans 5y ago
> Lentils (Lens culinaris Medik.) are produced on over 1.5 million acres throughout the world. They are primarily used for domestic consumption in casseroles, salads, soups and stews. Lentils provide an excellent source of protein (20 to 35 percent), but are limited in the sulphur-containing amino acids methionine and cystine. However, consumption of lentils with cereals provides a balanced diet high in fiber, protein and essential amino acids. > Lentils in the United States are primarily grown for export. Growing lentils is a great idea, but the developed and developing worlds' palates also need to also change course toward consuming less climate-damaging foods like meat and more lentils, chickpeas, and other pulses. Already today, pea protein is a major constituent of the newer more realistic meat-substitutes, which is a good trend, but if most lentils just end up being exported and used as some sort of livestock feed, it will make little differences to the climate and environmental issues we are experiencing.

slumdev 5y ago

Please make this a hill that a large and vocal political group is willing to die on. There are ways to prevent the desertification of the United States, and they don't involve PhDs and lobbying.

songzme 5y ago

There's a guy in Montana called Paul Wheaton who spent the last 6 years building soil rich in organic matter using no chemicals (pesticides & biocides) in his 200 acre plot of land. There were giant hugelkultur beds 15 ft high it was a crazy sight. He believes that in a decade the soil will be so rich in organic matter with healthy microbial activity (with no chemical history) could produce food that cures cancer. I believe that in an environment where human body is not weakened by the constant bombardment of chemical compounds, it could heal itself from cancer. He has a bootcamp and I took 2 weeks off from work to try it out in January and I learned alot just by being there. https://wheaton-labs.com/bootcamp/ https://wheaton-labs.com/bootcamp/ After that experience I couldn't focus on work anymore so I quit my job (I have 2 years worth of savings) and now my days are spent trying to restore the soil in my backyard.

blevin 5y ago
January in MT is no joke. Were the activities in that part of the year more on the theory end? Did you have to wait long between your reservation and getting a spot?
- songzme 5y ago
  I registered in November and was able to get a spot for January. The winter was a really good time because there weren't there many people (because of weather) and I got to ask all the questions I wanted. We mainly worked on a greenhouse that keeps water from freezing in Montana winters using the earth's thermal energy and no electricity: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/paulwheaton/greenhouse-1 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/paulwheaton/greenhouse-...
mathgladiator 5y ago
There feels like a deep truth to the constant assault of man-hand compounds in relation to our health. I recently started fasting every other day, and I've noticed odd issues just clearing up on their own. I'd wager the down-votes related to the claims around curing cancer, but there is reason to pursue this. I'm self experimenting on myself and wife since the wife has an auto-immune issue (MS). She was on the anti-gluten train way before it was fashionable since there is an immediate cause and effect for her without celiacs. We really should question all of our practices and values.

durkie 5y ago

Is there an economic argument to be made for increasing the amount of money spent in the local economy? I often hear it cited as a benefit in situations like this, and it has a certain feel-good quality to it, but instinctively it feels like it means people pay higher prices: if you're buying seed from the local seed & feed, it's almost certainly more expensive than if you buy it from XYZ megacorp.

majormajor 5y ago
Beyond just the an outsourcing-style one? Where the local circulation is more important than the immediate sticker price? Giving your money to someone else local means they can purchase stuff from someone else local who then can purchase stuff from someone else local, etc... vs that money being out of the local economy entirely.
jeffreyrogers 5y ago
Maybe not a strictly economic one, but probably a socioeconomic one: that keeping more money in local communities helps those communities to be better places to live. Whether that is true or not, I don't know. It's definitely true that corporate concentration has been increasing and that many of these communities are in decline.
- durkie 5y ago
  There are definitely plenty of towns I've been to in rural America (north GA) that are clearly hollow shells of their former selves. And it's way more fun and interesting to be in a place that does have a thriving local economy. The socioeconomic benefits are clear. I'm just wondering if theres a way to frame it in economic terms, or if everything about resiliency, more local jobs, etc. are basically all "externalities".
louis___ 5y ago
There is often an array of benefits. Following on your example, if you buy seed from the local seed & feed, you : - build resilience, for example if a global pandemic prevents far-reaching import-export - are less subject to geopolitics - money invested have a higher chance to stay in the local economy : the owner of the local seed & feed may buy its vegetables from you - create local jobs : this seed & feed owner may be able to create jobs for people - overall avoid the lock-in that you can have being tied to XYZ megacorp, for example if they now decide to only sell you seed that will grow with their newly branded feed - preserve local folklore : maybe there is a kind of seed that grows really well on your soil, but not so much in the others, so XYZ has decided to discontinue it because the market is too small to be profitable

zomdar 5y ago

Lol i love that his name is john wicks

jeffreyrogers 5y ago

What is the best criticism of regenerative ag? Everything I see about it is so positive that it seems crazy everyone hasn't switched. Are there really no downsides and it's just institutional inertia/caution holding everyone back?

louis___ 5y ago
It's more that it requires to leave the mainstream system, because the fertilizer and pesticides that destroyed your soil are the money-making machines of "Big Ag" corporations. Regenerative ag will not make you very rich either, so you have not much money to invest in lobbying activities, to go against the flow.
- andscoop 5y ago
  > Regenerative ag will not make you rich… How do you figure? Regenerative ag is still relatively new, and it’s practices are being honed. Idk what you define as rich but I’d venture to guess that Joel Salatin and Gabe Brown are extremely wealthy.
saalweachter 5y ago
Honestly? My biggest concern about it is that half its advocates say crazy things. For instance, down-thread we got the line: "[Paul Wheaton] believes that in a decade the soil will be so rich in organic matter with healthy microbial activity (with no chemical history) could produce food that cures cancer. I believe that in an environment where human body is not weakened by the constant bombardment of chemical compounds, it could heal itself from cancer." I do my best to keep an open mind because, hey, a lot of bits and pieces sound plausible, but whenever I get to lines about cancer-curing food, I begin to doubt the truth, validity or factual nature of anything else that was said on the topic. Aside from that, the biggest question is always going to be "Does it scale to growing sufficient food for 10 billion people?" Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, but whenever food comes up keep in mind that end game. If a particular agricultural system could produce food at lower energy costs, more sustainably, "better", but could only feed a billion people applied globally, it's only an acceptable solution in very particular moral frameworks.

zachware 5y ago

Organic and regenerative ag are built on the assumption that crops must be grown in open air soil. The reality is that crops can be grown in open air soil and, if they are, regenerative ag in particular is significantly better for soil longevity. That said it is not necessarily better to produce all crops in low density, high volatility, season dependent environments. Some material % of crops can move to more intelligent indoor settings where yields are higher, weather isn't a factor, and production yields can be scheduled without risk of weather impact. I'm actually a partner in one of these high volume operations in Montana (randomly). Uses less water, has zero soil impact, requires little to no chemical agents and is predictable. What I hope will continue is crops that are capable of producing profitable and predictable yields in indoor environments will move more and more in that direction. This could serve to reduce soil stress and leave soil for crops that need more space (e.g. tubers) and livestock to aid in improving soil longevity. Note this is not a plug for vertical farming. That's an entirely different mirage of financial engineering.

jasonlaramburu 5y ago
What criteria (crop type, geography, etc) are required for the benefits you outline of indoor ag to outweigh the energy cost of artificial lighting?
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  > What criteria (crop type, geography, etc) are required for the benefits you outline of indoor ag to outweigh the energy cost of artificial lighting? Massive amounts of government regulation that inflates the price. I.e. just weed so far.
- kickout 5y ago
  It's mostly high margin vegetables and spices. Look up gotham greens for a successul and properly done indoor ag startup. Generally tomatoes and maybe peppers have enough margin and volume to be justify indoor settings. Things like nuts are a no-go or any sort of wheat/cotton/maize/soybean operation (even specialty applications like edamame have severe uphill battles to profitability)

evtothedev 5y ago

If you're a UI/UX designer, and this area excites you, please drop me a line. We're tackling this exact problem at Yard Stick (https://www.useyardstick.com/ https://www.useyardstick.com/) - developing a new way to measure soil carbon that is fast, accurate and affordable, with backing by ARPA-E and in collaboration with the Soil Health Institute. Later this week, I'm going to post a contract-to-hire position. In the meantime, email me at evan@useyardstick.com

roldie 5y ago
I'm not sure how much time I could commit, but at the very least I could help spread the word. What kind of involvement are you looking for design-wise?
- evtothedev 5y ago
  Ideally full time. As you might imagine, the space is technical & complicated, and I suspect that delivering elegant designs would require quite some time to get up to speed.
eightysixfour 5y ago
I work for a design consultancy with a heavy emphasis on user research. Are you only open to working with individuals or would you be open to working with a consultancy? This sounds like an awesome design problem.

songzme 5y ago

If you are still buying groceries from supermarkets, it is in your best interest to change that habit and buy organic only. Food co-ops usually tend to store organic only so they are great places to buy your groceries. Organic ensures that the soil where your food came from had no prohibited substances (most synthetic fertilizers and pesticides) applied for three years. Chances are, if you are buying food from supermarkets without the organic label, your food probably came from a farm that uses unhealthy synthetic fertilizers that may attribute to health issues later down the road. Unless you know your restaurant is cooking with organic food, they are probably not so it is best to eat out sparingly and learn to cook with your own delicious food with your organic ingredients. If you want to step up your game, you could also buy organic clothes (aka clothes that came from plants / animal) that came from soil without prohibited substances. Your body is covered most of the day so it's better to be on the healthier side. Obviously, the label "organic" doesn't mean you are getting the best because there is still alot of room for improvement. Organic still allows some form of pesticides and fertilizers and has next to nothing about the organic matter in your soil (which determine how nutritious your food would be). The article mentions regenerative organic certification, which addresses the shortcomings for organic labels. If we, as consumers, demand for the highest quality food, it turns out to be good for the soil and the long term health of the earth too! Hands down, if you have a space for your own garden or even pots at home, you could easily grow food that are more nutritious than any food you can find in a grocery store. Optimize for organic matter in your soil. The higher the organic matter, the more nutritious your food is. Most of the agricultural soil that grows food has about 3-6% organic matter, you can easily get it above 10% at home. So if you have time on your hands, you should try growing the food you eat most regularly at home.

pbk1 5y ago
Setting aside the environmental concerns (which are important, and indirectly health-adjacent), are there material health reasons to eat organic? This Mayo Clinic article [0] points to pretty minor improvements, would love if someone could point me to evidence substantiating OP's claim, or maybe which products in particular are materially healthier if produced organically. [0] https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/organic-food/art-20043880 https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-h...

metalliqaz 5y ago

On this topic, I would suggest reading Animal, Vegetable, Junk: A History of Food, from Sustainable to Suicidal [1]. It's a great book on an issue that everyone should understand. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Animal-Vegetable-Junk-Sustainable-Suicidal/dp/1328974626 https://www.amazon.com/Animal-Vegetable-Junk-Sustainable-Sui...

vicarrion 5y ago

At Indigo we're working on incentivizing farmers to adopt regenerative practices and get paid for sequestering carbon. There's a number of open positions, most with the option to be remote! https://www.indigoag.com/carbon https://www.indigoag.com/carbon https://www.indigoag.com/join-us https://www.indigoag.com/join-us

kickout 5y ago
Indigo and every other ag player. Space saturated quickly. Now people need to find ways to fund the 10-40 per acre benefits long-term...
- groby_b 5y ago
  Would you mind elaborating what you meant with that comment? What are the "10-40 per acre benefits"?
  - kickout 5y ago
    Whoops. Meant to be 10-40 $$, USD per acre. That range seems to be the most common direct payment for farmers to adapt regenerative or sustainable practices on their farm. It depends where in the country and what method is used to determine payment (usually). It’s a very, very new method but it basically means paying farmers—- that money has to come from somewhere as usually farmers pay companies
    - groby_b 5y ago
      Ah, got it - thank you for the explanation. I’m not familiar with this space, so I had no idea that practice existed!
pkaye 5y ago
Sounds like an interesting approach. I'm glad there are people working of these issues. When I read this article I was thinking something like this is needed to incentivize the farmers.
5y ago

worik 5y ago

"In 2018 they went cold turkey on both pesticide and fertilizer, reducing their operational costs by $200,000 from the previous year, " I think that is going to be the property of this sort of agriculture that makes it really popular. Pity they cannot get carbon credits for the increase in top soil. Or can they?

emilywolfe 5y ago

Emily Wolfe here, I’m the person who wrote this story. As I plan the second story in the series, which will be about new markets related to organic and regenerative, I’m curious to know a couple of things: -isn’t this a tech/VC blog? How is it that so many of you are so interested in and knowledgeable about agriculture? -what about this story made you want to discuss it here? Looking forward to learning more!

underdeserver 5y ago
It's not a blog, it's a user-submitted news story aggregator. And we the users are nerds, and while most of us work in software engineering, we're interested in everything and anything deep and tech/science related.
- kungito 5y ago
  Often times I feel interested in anything but software engineering
evv555 5y ago
>isn’t this a tech/VC blog? How is it that so many of you are so interested in and knowledgeable about agriculture? It's a moderated forum of scientists, engineers, and intellectuals. ycombinator was one of the original VC funders of reddit and decided to use the same idea for its VC community.
- naasking 5y ago
  > It's a moderated forum of scientists, engineers, and intellectuals. There sure are a lot of stereotypes about tech enthusiasts. Hackers are interested in hacking nature too! ;-)
te_chris 5y ago
Personally, I’m fascinated by the system aspect of regenerative (etc.) ag. A lot of what I do as a tech CTO is systems based, but realistically we’re just mere amateurs compared to nature. Plus screens are boring.

akeck 5y ago

Gabe Brown's talk is my favorite introduction to regenerative ag: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmIdq0D6-A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmIdq0D6-A He did a book on it: https://www.chelseagreen.com/product/dirt-to-soil/ https://www.chelseagreen.com/product/dirt-to-soil/ I also like Geoff Lawton's work on food forests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgF9BU4uYMU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgF9BU4uYMU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCJfSYZqZ0Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCJfSYZqZ0Y

Floegipoky 5y ago

I'm glad to see formerly conventional farmers adopting no-till and other regenerative practices, but it's crazy to me that they're still trying to plant hundreds of hectares in monocrop. Baby steps, I guess. Maybe there's just no other way to make the economics work with so little rainfall?

emilywolfe 5y ago

Now that I see there’s such a hunger for this kind of storytelling, I want to build on what I’ve done in part 1. To do so, I’m seeking to fully fund parts 2 and 3 of this series, so I can continue digging deeply and telling stories of great characters. What ideas do you have for individuals/entities that might be interested? The money would go through the publisher, which is a 501 c3 nonprofit. Thank you all for such a great conversation here and asking such thought-provoking questions!

evv555 5y ago
There's a ycombinator startup for this. https://substack.com/ https://substack.com/