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Men are rapidly losing their close friends, poll finds

159 points by elorant 5y ago

version_five 5y ago
I wish the article had some info on the potential cause. I could only speculate. Anecdote, I'm 40, and I notice my younger male friends actually seem to have closer male friendships than I and my same age peers would have had, specifically more open about feelings, affection, basically things you'd be less likely to find and older generation man expressing. I wonder if it's like so many other disparities we see, where there are more very close friendships, more loners, and fewer people in the middle ground.
- elorant 5y ago
  There's more data on the links: https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/the-state-of-american-friendship-change-challenges-and-loss/ https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/the-state-of-a...
  - sjg007 5y ago
    The results in this report basically jives with my lived experience. I often think I should move to a city where some of my close school friends live. We are all techies and should really all work together but haven’t done so yet. I currently live in my wife’s hometown and there are a lot of folks who were born and raised here so the social fabric is strong. That being said I haven’t made any friends here. Oddly my wife made all new friends and while still has childhood friends here doesn’t really see them. That being said I’ve made friends at various jobs and I correlate a happy job and workplace success with the ability to make a friend at work. The only other thing I do is golf and I get some socialization there. We will probably see things change post pandemic though.
- schwartzworld 5y ago
  For me, it's been proximity. It's too expensive to own a home close to the city, and all my old friends live on various suburbs 30-60 minutes away.
  - lostmsu 5y ago
    Proximity is the king. It really kills the vibe if to hang out you need to plan days in advance because of 20+ minute drive each way. And then just popping up is no longer a thing.
Aqueous 5y ago
I find I am so overwhelmed by getting by at work and by taking care of all the assorted tasks I need to in order to keep functioning that I have literally no energy left to socialize or find people to hang out with. Has the world gotten more chaotic and require more of us to stay afloat or is it just me?
- zahrc 5y ago
  Don’t know how old you are, but I’m in my late 20s. My social circle grew a lot bigger when I first moved out, tho I lost touch with many high school “friends”. I moved places again in my early 20s and then it kept shrinking - more adult responsibilities, less friends. I recently moved countries and my circle now consists of a handful of people I’ve been friends with 10-15+ Years, funnily most of these I’ve met online. We’re all part of the same group mostly, everyone with their responsibilities; wives, jobs, etc. I’d say that’s pretty normal and expected
raarts 5y ago
Just guessing: smaller and broken families, more time behind screens, less male-only and female-only spaces, more mobility. Worse for males because women are more social-oriented.
- gumby 5y ago
  That's a lot of presuppositions and stereotypes in two sentences. It's possible that some of those factors matter (I'd think smaller families would increase availability for socialization) but, to provide anecdote, my circle of friends expanded after my breakup, which makes sense.
  - FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
    > my circle of friends expanded after my breakup, which makes sense. This surprises me. Usually breakups cost friends, as some are associated more with the partner you're leaving. > I'd think smaller families would increase availability for socialization I dunno, there can be a lot of socialization within the extended family. It has a lot to do with culture though. In some there'll be a WhatsApp group full of cousins and aunties, plus three generations actually living together in a big compound, and all the socialization you could need (and then some). And if you travel you'll never need a hotel. Lots of cultures like this.
  - TheFreim 5y ago
    > That's a lot of presuppositions and stereotypes in two sentences. In my (limited) experience many stereotypes are accurate. > I'd think smaller families would increase availability for socialization It really depends, but I don't know. Large families are correlated with certain activities, beliefs, etc which might be what help increase social interaction. I know a lot of parents who have big families and their kids basically introduce them to half a dozen families who they're friends with and it exponentially increases opportunity for socializing as the children age and dynamics change.
    - aaron695 5y ago
      > In my (limited) experience many stereotypes are accurate. This is also well proven - https://www.spsp.org/news-center/blog/stereotype-accuracy-response https://www.spsp.org/news-center/blog/stereotype-accuracy-re...
dkdk8283 5y ago
I moved to a conservative state to escape modern insanity and have made many strong friendships. I’m mid life and never had a better group of friends.
- jml7c5 5y ago
  Did you move from a city to a smaller town? Or is the population of the place you moved to about the same?
  - dkdk8283 5y ago
    Same population density different social environment. I went from wealthy to all blue collar neighborhood.
- mmckelvy 5y ago
  Which state?
  - dkdk8283 5y ago
    Decline to answer. Happy to address general questions, though.
    - nate_meurer 5y ago
      In general, which state did you move to?
- wittycardio 5y ago
  Uh what does conservative have to do with anything. I live in a large liberal city have a large group of friends
- tmh88j 5y ago
  >I moved to a conservative state to escape modern insanity and have made many strong friendships. How do any of those 3 things relate to one another? This is such a bizarre non-sequitur that I can only assume you're trolling.
theshadowknows 5y ago
I came to the realization a while back that I only have maybe…4 friends other than my wife. When I moved and left for college I was married already and most of my friends were not. My wife and I weren’t big into the clubbing thing so old friends sort of fell away. We did both make some friends in college, some mutual and some exclusive. But there were social factors that made that difficult - mainly we were very, very poor and were often embarrassed to have people over or go out since we couldn’t afford to. A small handful of those friendships live on in my wife’s social media but I have no social media footprint. After college we both worked and that’s where I picked up the friends I have today. Two (now former) coworkers and a former boss. We have an ongoing text chat and we’re pretty open about real stuff. As luck would have it, both my former boss and I moved to the same state for new jobs and live fairly close. So the four of us (we and our wives) hang out on occasion. At my current job I’ve picked up one more friend with whom I talk regularly about non work things. But I’m unsure how long that friendship will last as we’re both seeking new jobs, she’s leaving in a week and I’ll (hopefully) be leaving shortly thereafter. Hopefully it’ll last, but who knows. My wife is better at making friends than I am. She’s joined several local groups around her interests and is slowly building a new social circle. But for me I tend to work from maybe 4am to 7pm and often during the weekend. So by the time I shut everything off at night I’m just so exhausted that I don’t have much more energy to do anything.
- adventured 5y ago
  > I came to the realization a while back that I only have maybe…4 friends other than my wife. This is overwhelmingly true about everyone, having a single digit count of close friends. People that pretend to have dozens of close friends, are liars, whether consciously or subconsciously (specifically they're maintaining a facade to draw social points from, narcissistically). It's not feasible to successfully maintain so many high level relationships, even if it's all a person does all day. A typical social butterfly might have a few dozen active social connections that they keep alive by occasionally touching base, which is very different from having that many good friends.
- soared 5y ago
  > 4am to 7pm and often during the weekend 15 hours days and more on the weekend sounds incredibly unhealthy. How do you eat, sleep, and socialize?
thebooktocome 5y ago
I'm lucky that I have a lot of friends through D&D and other in-person group gaming. As a happily married gay man, however, I find that a lot of straight men still get the wrong idea when I, e.g., invite them for a drink after work, even when it's as part of a group with other people. It's happened a few times now and I'm seriously perturbed! What other signals do I need to be throwing to tell people I just want to be friends?
- version_five 5y ago
  First, that does seem a bit funny to me, especially if you're married. It (being hit on) certainly would not be the first thing I suspected if a gay friend asked me to go have a drink. On the other hand, there have definitely been situations where I would have liked to ask a woman to go have a platonic drink, and didn't because of a concern she would get the wrong idea (I'm married too).
- gedy 5y ago
  It's the same type of reaction as when a straight guy asks women out for drinks, even if he was married
Proven 5y ago
I haven't lost any friends, but I've trimmed down friendships with non-libertarian men and women I knew, and I don't regret it. There's no point in having such friends. I still maintain friendships with libertarian friends, some of them I haven't seen for many years. I don't have fewer close friends than I'd like.
throwaway89652 5y ago
I stopped keeping in contact with my friends when I realized that it was more trouble than it was worth. I grew up. They didn't. I'd rather spend time nurturing my kids than talk about the latest infantilized product that they're consuming or their furrogate babies. Someone might ask "Maybe you need to find new friends," but why? I don't need to validate my identity or views. Most social hobbies are tedious timesinks. Other parents make shortsighted, contagious decisions concerning their kids behavior; Why should I even open that attack surface? It's all just so tiresome.
- sjg007 5y ago
  Well you do want to socially inoculate your kids at least for their sake. Kids learn to relate to others from their parents.
- pbourke 5y ago
  > furrogate babies Perhaps your friends stopped getting in contact with you after they realized that you’re an asshole.
  - throwaway89652 5y ago
    Ha, gottem! Now let's go take out Jean-Lick Pawcard for ice cream and his playdate before we catch the new MCU film!
jdhn 5y ago
I feel this. If I got married tomorrow, I'm honestly not sure I could find a best man.
- 46756e 5y ago
  I’ll be your best man
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- ab-dm 5y ago
  I was in the same boat with my wedding, just didn’t have a best man.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 5y ago
  Yep, had that exact experience.
- nate_meurer 5y ago
  I'm there. Never in my life have I had a friend even close to "best man" material, in either direction. For whatever reason, I've never been able to maintain friendships for more than a couple of years. Something always goes wrong, or folks just lose interest. In my mid forties now, it seems obvious that this is due to personality flaws of my own.
endisneigh 5y ago
as someone who struggled with this - my advice is pretty simple: "just say yes." Anytime anyone asks if you're interested in doing anything, just say yes. In my experience the problems sort of just resolved themselves. though this is much harder than it sounds. I used to be a huge flake because I'd always say no (for valid reasons, such as I just wasn't interested or wasn't really feeling the person that much), but saying yes and frequently being around someone (or a group) made some of the issues resolve themselves somehow. Conversely, once you get past this my other advice would be "many to one" - hang out in groups frequently to massage things, and try to hang out with people by themselves as frequently as possible. as great as group hang outs are - it's just not the same as one-on-one. for one you're not as candid about things. finally my last note would be: just because you see someone alot in a group does not mean you are friends. I cannot emphasize this enough. you must hang out with people in smaller groups, ideally one-on-one (this is not to say that people you hang out with in groups aren't your friends, tho).
- bootlooped 5y ago
  I agree. It only takes one or two nos before you stop getting asked.
  - atatatat 5y ago
    (Unless you specifically ask people to keep asking you!)
    - tarboreus 5y ago
      Only goes so far. As a person who organizes things a lot and invites lots of people to things, you probably get three shots, max. One or two is more the norm.
  - koheripbal 5y ago
    ...which can sometimes be the goal. Life is too short to spend with people you don't respect.
bluefirebrand 5y ago
This is likely just as simple as "Men are more likely to move away from established friend groups to pursue careers and struggle to make new connects wherever they land" That's what happened to me, anyways
- tootie 5y ago
  That doesn't explain the trend since the 90s. If anything, fewer men are married to their careers than before. I suspect it actually has to do with later marriages and declining fertility. As someone who doesn't really seek friendship, everyone I know socially is either through work or parents of my kids' friends.
  - joshka 5y ago
    >If anything, fewer men are married to their careers than before Is there a source for this claim? (not being acerbic - genuine question)
    - tootie 5y ago
      https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=F2lX https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=F2lX
      - joshka 5y ago
        Interesting - thanks.
71a54xd 5y ago
Actively deciding to stop drinking kind of did this anyways. Friends are great, but they're also a huge time sync. Also, as you get older you realize that most people aren't really your friends like they were in high school or college. I had one person I thought was a "friend" turn on a dime and start spamming me with horrible text messages. This was a person I talked to every day and worked on a few cool side projects with, one day randomly accused me of all this insane political stuff... The whole experience was jolting, pretty sure I'm going to take a break from friends for a while.
motohagiography 5y ago
Decided to actively solve for this problem in late 30s after attending funerals where the guy had to use some of the funeral home staff as palbearers, and I decided it was important to me to finish being able to convene a party of 6. How? Joined a fraternal organization. It's the least fashionable or cool thing to do, and that's precisely what made it a good idea. It is a way to have something in common without a lot of baggage or overhead, and you get to see what other men are really like from every walk of life, at different stages of their lives. The organizations are what you make them, and bringing conditions and expectation goes as well as you expect. I say men because a lot of young guys these days are uncomfortable saying out loud that they are a man. Instead they say they are a "person," "an adult," a "guy," or a "dude." Nobody needs a deep philosophical explanation of it, but being able to self accept enough to say you are a man is exceptional these days. You can certainly be all those things, but if someone asked you point blank whether you were a good man, for many it's an uncomfortably direct question. I think this is the root of what makes male friendships hard, we've all become too neurotic and anxious. The org I joined doesn't have any answers to that (it's not unlike a theatre group), but just being around other guys and doing the work to keep the thing running gives you the tools to figure it out for yourself if that's your thing. I also think we've been given a bunch of substitute cognitively limiting tools to dodge the question, like saying we aren't bros or toxic masculine persons, or don't need to overcompensate because we're educated, etc. I think because many of us haven't been equipped with the tools to discern what it means to be a good one makes the whole thing intimidating. Anyway, in mine, I hang out with a wildly diverse group (whole spectrum of religion, sexuality, ethnicity, age, etc), and in having almost nothing in common, the equillibrium we manage to find gives you an idea of a common thread that we can find. It helps everyone recognize there is a way to meet almost anyone on the level. It's not for everyone, and that bar makes the other side of it really special. Partners are fine with it because it's good clean fun and knowing 20+ guys who will return your txts is pretty cool. I think the thing that turned me is I saw the quality of the criticisms on the internet of fraternal organizations and the list of who has historically been against them, and I figured if there was a team I could join, it would be the one those anti- people are against. The rules are that the organization can't recruit, so if you want to be the change, the opportunity is unlimited.
- 5y ago
colmvp 5y ago
Honestly, Covid-19 showed me there are 'friends' and there are friends. It changed my perspective of some of my friendships. I had some 'friends' who I knew for 10+ years who couldn't spare a single minute over the past 1.5 years to go for a walk or have a coffee outside. As someone who was there for them at various points in life, all I could think of was "really, you know I live alone and don't have an SO like you do, did it seriously never cross your mind how lonely it's been for me?" Unless I made the umpteenth trip to visit him/her, they would make zero effort. I also had friends including those who just had newborns who made the time every single week to jump on a zoom call just to say hi and to keep each others spirits up. I probably won't let it destroy the friendships because what is 1.5 years compared to 10+, but at the same time, I'd be lying if I said it was easy to forget.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  I think we need to have some compassion. Many people this past year were terrified and traumatized.
  - babyshake 5y ago
    And speaking for myself, I got a lot of Zoom/Facetime fatigue and also was dreading having the same conversations over and over again about COVID and lockdown.
    - listless 5y ago
      I would rather be alone forever than have another zoom call. That’s where I am.
      - Pamar 5y ago
        At the start of the pandemic I git in touch with a group of people ("friends") who were living all over Europe and set up a role playing campaign using Discord. I did it for two reasons: I like RPGs, and to provide them with a chance to socialize and get some distraction from Covid, depression etc. We talk if "normal stuff" (including the Pandemic) for 10-15 minutes top at the start, especially while waiting for everybody to get online, then we play for two hours straight. Voice only, no video. It's a Fantasy campaign so it's pure escapism. It sorta worked so far.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
joelbondurant 5y ago
Who needs math illiterate diaper face communists in their life, 1,2,3 not I.
tkojames 5y ago
People will laugh but playing golf has increased my social circle by a wide amount. I play golf with different people all the time. I play 2-3 times a week. We have a core group of people 10-12 that always play together. Would join in golf trips going to play different places around the world. Huge age difference in the group. People in mid 20's all the way up to some who just turned 80. Gotta find that hobby and then find that group of people.
- moltar 5y ago
  But are they real friends or just circles of interest?
  - bobf 5y ago
    What is a "real friend" then? Many would argue that shared interests or experiences can certainly be the basis of at least some level of friendship. There are certainly some people who might claim that the label of "real friend" only applies to those you could "trust to help bury a body", or some other extremely unlikely/intense situation. Like most things, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. There are likely varying degrees of friendship. Qualifying them as "real" (or not) comes across more like the informal logical fallacy of an appeal to purity (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) than anything.
    - sliken 5y ago
      Real friends will help out, not just greet you in a shared setting. Would they buy you lunch if you forgot your wallet? Loan you their vehicle? Help you move? Visit you in the hospital if you broke your leg? Actively try to help you with life in general? As the saying goes when the chips are down, you will know who your true friends are.
      - nate_meurer 5y ago
        And it means you often have to discover this the hard way, which can lead to some brutal surprises.
flax 5y ago
Why is this assumed to be a problem? I'm much happier now that I've accepted that I don't need or want friends other than my wife and family.
- adius 5y ago
  That’s a good point! I hate how many paint any change to how it has been as a failure. This is exactly part of the social stigma that causes bad feelings in itself.
failwhaleshark 5y ago
I lived in vehicles for ~9 years and dwindled down to 3 elderly, frail, sane homeless guys as friends (mostly, it was me helping them and I didn't expect anything in return). - Be a friend to have friends. - Be the source of the party, activities, and adventures. Do not wait around for anyone else to ask first, or it's waiting for Godot. - Make everything an ADVENTURE! Going to get milk: ADVENTURE TIME! B) :D Ridiculousness on 11 with a broken knob. - Bring more than there was before: stuff, energy, liveliness, etc. - Be early or late. - Always leave while everyone is still having a good time. - Say "no" with frustration and schedule something concrete immediately. - Exponentially-backoff after 2-3 texts / 1-2 calls. - All of the "Let's do lunch people" who aren't interested in concrete plans are just being "nice" dicks, wasting your time and theirs. - If people just want your number without anything else, they're trying to exit (and ghost you). - Thank people with specific, personalized notes (cards or emails) after invites. Cards, where possible. - Ask for people's birthdays and anniversaries. - When you create contacts of people, demonstrate getting details like birth day and month and anniversary. It shows you don't just view people as ephemeral leads to the next networking event. - Give people time to miss you but not time for forget you. - You're only as good as your last impression. - Lookout for the needs of others, listen, and don't be a greedy or selfish dick. - Not as a moral judgement but have integrity: reliable, fair, keeps confidence, and trustworthy. If a particular cleaning or cleanup task should be absolutely necessary, there is no doubt about its conclusion. - Dissuade a friend's worst proclivities while helping them see new abilities and capacities. - Sense of humor: find it, grab it with both hands, and squeeze. Sorry, ma'am, I was making a point here with my 259 new internet friends who are such bastards who never invite me anywhere. Don't mind me, I'm just a terrible, weird, ugly, boring, desperate person dragging this cross along... don't even think of helping now that you didn't invite me. How dare you!? Good day to you, I say. I said "good day!" There is the door. Stop reading!
mikhailfranco 5y ago
Introversion is the new superpower in today's atomized pandemicked zoomed WFH asocial-media eggshell-walking distanced society.

159 points by elorant 5y ago

I wish the article had some info on the potential cause. I could only speculate. Anecdote, I'm 40, and I notice my younger male friends actually seem to have closer male friendships than I and my same age peers would have had, specifically more open about feelings, affection, basically things you'd be less likely to find and older generation man expressing. I wonder if it's like so many other disparities we see, where there are more very close friendships, more loners, and fewer people in the middle ground.

elorant 5y ago
There's more data on the links: https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/the-state-of-american-friendship-change-challenges-and-loss/ https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/the-state-of-a...
- sjg007 5y ago
  The results in this report basically jives with my lived experience. I often think I should move to a city where some of my close school friends live. We are all techies and should really all work together but haven’t done so yet. I currently live in my wife’s hometown and there are a lot of folks who were born and raised here so the social fabric is strong. That being said I haven’t made any friends here. Oddly my wife made all new friends and while still has childhood friends here doesn’t really see them. That being said I’ve made friends at various jobs and I correlate a happy job and workplace success with the ability to make a friend at work. The only other thing I do is golf and I get some socialization there. We will probably see things change post pandemic though.
schwartzworld 5y ago
For me, it's been proximity. It's too expensive to own a home close to the city, and all my old friends live on various suburbs 30-60 minutes away.
- lostmsu 5y ago
  Proximity is the king. It really kills the vibe if to hang out you need to plan days in advance because of 20+ minute drive each way. And then just popping up is no longer a thing.

Aqueous 5y ago

I find I am so overwhelmed by getting by at work and by taking care of all the assorted tasks I need to in order to keep functioning that I have literally no energy left to socialize or find people to hang out with. Has the world gotten more chaotic and require more of us to stay afloat or is it just me?

zahrc 5y ago
Don’t know how old you are, but I’m in my late 20s. My social circle grew a lot bigger when I first moved out, tho I lost touch with many high school “friends”. I moved places again in my early 20s and then it kept shrinking - more adult responsibilities, less friends. I recently moved countries and my circle now consists of a handful of people I’ve been friends with 10-15+ Years, funnily most of these I’ve met online. We’re all part of the same group mostly, everyone with their responsibilities; wives, jobs, etc. I’d say that’s pretty normal and expected

raarts 5y ago

Just guessing: smaller and broken families, more time behind screens, less male-only and female-only spaces, more mobility. Worse for males because women are more social-oriented.

gumby 5y ago
That's a lot of presuppositions and stereotypes in two sentences. It's possible that some of those factors matter (I'd think smaller families would increase availability for socialization) but, to provide anecdote, my circle of friends expanded after my breakup, which makes sense.
- FooBarBizBazz 5y ago
  > my circle of friends expanded after my breakup, which makes sense. This surprises me. Usually breakups cost friends, as some are associated more with the partner you're leaving. > I'd think smaller families would increase availability for socialization I dunno, there can be a lot of socialization within the extended family. It has a lot to do with culture though. In some there'll be a WhatsApp group full of cousins and aunties, plus three generations actually living together in a big compound, and all the socialization you could need (and then some). And if you travel you'll never need a hotel. Lots of cultures like this.
- TheFreim 5y ago
  > That's a lot of presuppositions and stereotypes in two sentences. In my (limited) experience many stereotypes are accurate. > I'd think smaller families would increase availability for socialization It really depends, but I don't know. Large families are correlated with certain activities, beliefs, etc which might be what help increase social interaction. I know a lot of parents who have big families and their kids basically introduce them to half a dozen families who they're friends with and it exponentially increases opportunity for socializing as the children age and dynamics change.
  - aaron695 5y ago
    > In my (limited) experience many stereotypes are accurate. This is also well proven - https://www.spsp.org/news-center/blog/stereotype-accuracy-response https://www.spsp.org/news-center/blog/stereotype-accuracy-re...

dkdk8283 5y ago

I moved to a conservative state to escape modern insanity and have made many strong friendships. I’m mid life and never had a better group of friends.

jml7c5 5y ago
Did you move from a city to a smaller town? Or is the population of the place you moved to about the same?
- dkdk8283 5y ago
  Same population density different social environment. I went from wealthy to all blue collar neighborhood.
mmckelvy 5y ago
Which state?
- dkdk8283 5y ago
  Decline to answer. Happy to address general questions, though.
  - nate_meurer 5y ago
    In general, which state did you move to?
wittycardio 5y ago
Uh what does conservative have to do with anything. I live in a large liberal city have a large group of friends
tmh88j 5y ago
>I moved to a conservative state to escape modern insanity and have made many strong friendships. How do any of those 3 things relate to one another? This is such a bizarre non-sequitur that I can only assume you're trolling.

theshadowknows 5y ago

I came to the realization a while back that I only have maybe…4 friends other than my wife. When I moved and left for college I was married already and most of my friends were not. My wife and I weren’t big into the clubbing thing so old friends sort of fell away. We did both make some friends in college, some mutual and some exclusive. But there were social factors that made that difficult - mainly we were very, very poor and were often embarrassed to have people over or go out since we couldn’t afford to. A small handful of those friendships live on in my wife’s social media but I have no social media footprint. After college we both worked and that’s where I picked up the friends I have today. Two (now former) coworkers and a former boss. We have an ongoing text chat and we’re pretty open about real stuff. As luck would have it, both my former boss and I moved to the same state for new jobs and live fairly close. So the four of us (we and our wives) hang out on occasion. At my current job I’ve picked up one more friend with whom I talk regularly about non work things. But I’m unsure how long that friendship will last as we’re both seeking new jobs, she’s leaving in a week and I’ll (hopefully) be leaving shortly thereafter. Hopefully it’ll last, but who knows. My wife is better at making friends than I am. She’s joined several local groups around her interests and is slowly building a new social circle. But for me I tend to work from maybe 4am to 7pm and often during the weekend. So by the time I shut everything off at night I’m just so exhausted that I don’t have much more energy to do anything.

adventured 5y ago
> I came to the realization a while back that I only have maybe…4 friends other than my wife. This is overwhelmingly true about everyone, having a single digit count of close friends. People that pretend to have dozens of close friends, are liars, whether consciously or subconsciously (specifically they're maintaining a facade to draw social points from, narcissistically). It's not feasible to successfully maintain so many high level relationships, even if it's all a person does all day. A typical social butterfly might have a few dozen active social connections that they keep alive by occasionally touching base, which is very different from having that many good friends.
soared 5y ago
> 4am to 7pm and often during the weekend 15 hours days and more on the weekend sounds incredibly unhealthy. How do you eat, sleep, and socialize?

thebooktocome 5y ago

I'm lucky that I have a lot of friends through D&D and other in-person group gaming. As a happily married gay man, however, I find that a lot of straight men still get the wrong idea when I, e.g., invite them for a drink after work, even when it's as part of a group with other people. It's happened a few times now and I'm seriously perturbed! What other signals do I need to be throwing to tell people I just want to be friends?

version_five 5y ago
First, that does seem a bit funny to me, especially if you're married. It (being hit on) certainly would not be the first thing I suspected if a gay friend asked me to go have a drink. On the other hand, there have definitely been situations where I would have liked to ask a woman to go have a platonic drink, and didn't because of a concern she would get the wrong idea (I'm married too).
gedy 5y ago
It's the same type of reaction as when a straight guy asks women out for drinks, even if he was married

Proven 5y ago

I haven't lost any friends, but I've trimmed down friendships with non-libertarian men and women I knew, and I don't regret it. There's no point in having such friends. I still maintain friendships with libertarian friends, some of them I haven't seen for many years. I don't have fewer close friends than I'd like.

throwaway89652 5y ago

I stopped keeping in contact with my friends when I realized that it was more trouble than it was worth. I grew up. They didn't. I'd rather spend time nurturing my kids than talk about the latest infantilized product that they're consuming or their furrogate babies. Someone might ask "Maybe you need to find new friends," but why? I don't need to validate my identity or views. Most social hobbies are tedious timesinks. Other parents make shortsighted, contagious decisions concerning their kids behavior; Why should I even open that attack surface? It's all just so tiresome.

sjg007 5y ago
Well you do want to socially inoculate your kids at least for their sake. Kids learn to relate to others from their parents.
pbourke 5y ago
> furrogate babies Perhaps your friends stopped getting in contact with you after they realized that you’re an asshole.
- throwaway89652 5y ago
  Ha, gottem! Now let's go take out Jean-Lick Pawcard for ice cream and his playdate before we catch the new MCU film!

jdhn 5y ago

I feel this. If I got married tomorrow, I'm honestly not sure I could find a best man.

46756e 5y ago
I’ll be your best man
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ab-dm 5y ago
I was in the same boat with my wedding, just didn’t have a best man.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
8f2ab37a-ed6c 5y ago
Yep, had that exact experience.
nate_meurer 5y ago
I'm there. Never in my life have I had a friend even close to "best man" material, in either direction. For whatever reason, I've never been able to maintain friendships for more than a couple of years. Something always goes wrong, or folks just lose interest. In my mid forties now, it seems obvious that this is due to personality flaws of my own.

endisneigh 5y ago

as someone who struggled with this - my advice is pretty simple: "just say yes." Anytime anyone asks if you're interested in doing anything, just say yes. In my experience the problems sort of just resolved themselves. though this is much harder than it sounds. I used to be a huge flake because I'd always say no (for valid reasons, such as I just wasn't interested or wasn't really feeling the person that much), but saying yes and frequently being around someone (or a group) made some of the issues resolve themselves somehow. Conversely, once you get past this my other advice would be "many to one" - hang out in groups frequently to massage things, and try to hang out with people by themselves as frequently as possible. as great as group hang outs are - it's just not the same as one-on-one. for one you're not as candid about things. finally my last note would be: just because you see someone alot in a group does not mean you are friends. I cannot emphasize this enough. you must hang out with people in smaller groups, ideally one-on-one (this is not to say that people you hang out with in groups aren't your friends, tho).

bootlooped 5y ago
I agree. It only takes one or two nos before you stop getting asked.
- atatatat 5y ago
  (Unless you specifically ask people to keep asking you!)
  - tarboreus 5y ago
    Only goes so far. As a person who organizes things a lot and invites lots of people to things, you probably get three shots, max. One or two is more the norm.
- koheripbal 5y ago
  ...which can sometimes be the goal. Life is too short to spend with people you don't respect.

bluefirebrand 5y ago

This is likely just as simple as "Men are more likely to move away from established friend groups to pursue careers and struggle to make new connects wherever they land" That's what happened to me, anyways

tootie 5y ago
That doesn't explain the trend since the 90s. If anything, fewer men are married to their careers than before. I suspect it actually has to do with later marriages and declining fertility. As someone who doesn't really seek friendship, everyone I know socially is either through work or parents of my kids' friends.
- joshka 5y ago
  >If anything, fewer men are married to their careers than before Is there a source for this claim? (not being acerbic - genuine question)
  - tootie 5y ago
    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=F2lX https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=F2lX
    - joshka 5y ago
      Interesting - thanks.

71a54xd 5y ago

Actively deciding to stop drinking kind of did this anyways. Friends are great, but they're also a huge time sync. Also, as you get older you realize that most people aren't really your friends like they were in high school or college. I had one person I thought was a "friend" turn on a dime and start spamming me with horrible text messages. This was a person I talked to every day and worked on a few cool side projects with, one day randomly accused me of all this insane political stuff... The whole experience was jolting, pretty sure I'm going to take a break from friends for a while.

motohagiography 5y ago

Decided to actively solve for this problem in late 30s after attending funerals where the guy had to use some of the funeral home staff as palbearers, and I decided it was important to me to finish being able to convene a party of 6. How? Joined a fraternal organization. It's the least fashionable or cool thing to do, and that's precisely what made it a good idea. It is a way to have something in common without a lot of baggage or overhead, and you get to see what other men are really like from every walk of life, at different stages of their lives. The organizations are what you make them, and bringing conditions and expectation goes as well as you expect. I say men because a lot of young guys these days are uncomfortable saying out loud that they are a man. Instead they say they are a "person," "an adult," a "guy," or a "dude." Nobody needs a deep philosophical explanation of it, but being able to self accept enough to say you are a man is exceptional these days. You can certainly be all those things, but if someone asked you point blank whether you were a good man, for many it's an uncomfortably direct question. I think this is the root of what makes male friendships hard, we've all become too neurotic and anxious. The org I joined doesn't have any answers to that (it's not unlike a theatre group), but just being around other guys and doing the work to keep the thing running gives you the tools to figure it out for yourself if that's your thing. I also think we've been given a bunch of substitute cognitively limiting tools to dodge the question, like saying we aren't bros or toxic masculine persons, or don't need to overcompensate because we're educated, etc. I think because many of us haven't been equipped with the tools to discern what it means to be a good one makes the whole thing intimidating. Anyway, in mine, I hang out with a wildly diverse group (whole spectrum of religion, sexuality, ethnicity, age, etc), and in having almost nothing in common, the equillibrium we manage to find gives you an idea of a common thread that we can find. It helps everyone recognize there is a way to meet almost anyone on the level. It's not for everyone, and that bar makes the other side of it really special. Partners are fine with it because it's good clean fun and knowing 20+ guys who will return your txts is pretty cool. I think the thing that turned me is I saw the quality of the criticisms on the internet of fraternal organizations and the list of who has historically been against them, and I figured if there was a team I could join, it would be the one those anti- people are against. The rules are that the organization can't recruit, so if you want to be the change, the opportunity is unlimited.

5y ago

colmvp 5y ago

Honestly, Covid-19 showed me there are 'friends' and there are friends. It changed my perspective of some of my friendships. I had some 'friends' who I knew for 10+ years who couldn't spare a single minute over the past 1.5 years to go for a walk or have a coffee outside. As someone who was there for them at various points in life, all I could think of was "really, you know I live alone and don't have an SO like you do, did it seriously never cross your mind how lonely it's been for me?" Unless I made the umpteenth trip to visit him/her, they would make zero effort. I also had friends including those who just had newborns who made the time every single week to jump on a zoom call just to say hi and to keep each others spirits up. I probably won't let it destroy the friendships because what is 1.5 years compared to 10+, but at the same time, I'd be lying if I said it was easy to forget.

pmoriarty 5y ago
I think we need to have some compassion. Many people this past year were terrified and traumatized.
- babyshake 5y ago
  And speaking for myself, I got a lot of Zoom/Facetime fatigue and also was dreading having the same conversations over and over again about COVID and lockdown.
  - listless 5y ago
    I would rather be alone forever than have another zoom call. That’s where I am.
    - Pamar 5y ago
      At the start of the pandemic I git in touch with a group of people ("friends") who were living all over Europe and set up a role playing campaign using Discord. I did it for two reasons: I like RPGs, and to provide them with a chance to socialize and get some distraction from Covid, depression etc. We talk if "normal stuff" (including the Pandemic) for 10-15 minutes top at the start, especially while waiting for everybody to get online, then we play for two hours straight. Voice only, no video. It's a Fantasy campaign so it's pure escapism. It sorta worked so far.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

joelbondurant 5y ago

Who needs math illiterate diaper face communists in their life, 1,2,3 not I.

tkojames 5y ago

People will laugh but playing golf has increased my social circle by a wide amount. I play golf with different people all the time. I play 2-3 times a week. We have a core group of people 10-12 that always play together. Would join in golf trips going to play different places around the world. Huge age difference in the group. People in mid 20's all the way up to some who just turned 80. Gotta find that hobby and then find that group of people.

moltar 5y ago
But are they real friends or just circles of interest?
- bobf 5y ago
  What is a "real friend" then? Many would argue that shared interests or experiences can certainly be the basis of at least some level of friendship. There are certainly some people who might claim that the label of "real friend" only applies to those you could "trust to help bury a body", or some other extremely unlikely/intense situation. Like most things, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. There are likely varying degrees of friendship. Qualifying them as "real" (or not) comes across more like the informal logical fallacy of an appeal to purity (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman) than anything.
  - sliken 5y ago
    Real friends will help out, not just greet you in a shared setting. Would they buy you lunch if you forgot your wallet? Loan you their vehicle? Help you move? Visit you in the hospital if you broke your leg? Actively try to help you with life in general? As the saying goes when the chips are down, you will know who your true friends are.
    - nate_meurer 5y ago
      And it means you often have to discover this the hard way, which can lead to some brutal surprises.

flax 5y ago

Why is this assumed to be a problem? I'm much happier now that I've accepted that I don't need or want friends other than my wife and family.

adius 5y ago
That’s a good point! I hate how many paint any change to how it has been as a failure. This is exactly part of the social stigma that causes bad feelings in itself.

failwhaleshark 5y ago

I lived in vehicles for ~9 years and dwindled down to 3 elderly, frail, sane homeless guys as friends (mostly, it was me helping them and I didn't expect anything in return). - Be a friend to have friends. - Be the source of the party, activities, and adventures. Do not wait around for anyone else to ask first, or it's waiting for Godot. - Make everything an ADVENTURE! Going to get milk: ADVENTURE TIME! B) :D Ridiculousness on 11 with a broken knob. - Bring more than there was before: stuff, energy, liveliness, etc. - Be early or late. - Always leave while everyone is still having a good time. - Say "no" with frustration and schedule something concrete immediately. - Exponentially-backoff after 2-3 texts / 1-2 calls. - All of the "Let's do lunch people" who aren't interested in concrete plans are just being "nice" dicks, wasting your time and theirs. - If people just want your number without anything else, they're trying to exit (and ghost you). - Thank people with specific, personalized notes (cards or emails) after invites. Cards, where possible. - Ask for people's birthdays and anniversaries. - When you create contacts of people, demonstrate getting details like birth day and month and anniversary. It shows you don't just view people as ephemeral leads to the next networking event. - Give people time to miss you but not time for forget you. - You're only as good as your last impression. - Lookout for the needs of others, listen, and don't be a greedy or selfish dick. - Not as a moral judgement but have integrity: reliable, fair, keeps confidence, and trustworthy. If a particular cleaning or cleanup task should be absolutely necessary, there is no doubt about its conclusion. - Dissuade a friend's worst proclivities while helping them see new abilities and capacities. - Sense of humor: find it, grab it with both hands, and squeeze. Sorry, ma'am, I was making a point here with my 259 new internet friends who are such bastards who never invite me anywhere. Don't mind me, I'm just a terrible, weird, ugly, boring, desperate person dragging this cross along... don't even think of helping now that you didn't invite me. How dare you!? Good day to you, I say. I said "good day!" There is the door. Stop reading!

mikhailfranco 5y ago

Introversion is the new superpower in today's atomized pandemicked zoomed WFH asocial-media eggshell-walking distanced society.