23 ms·

The Electrification of Everything

92 points by elorant 5y ago

neonate 5y ago
https://archive.is/hdCjz https://archive.is/hdCjz
stuaxo 5y ago
Every election in UK the last few years labour say they will electrify the rest of our railways, the Tories say they will too. The Tories get in and then don't do it.
- Xophmeister 5y ago
  This is probably not an HN-approved comment, but if we can find a party donor or friend of a cabinet minister who also happens to be in the railway industry, I’m sure we’d see a new golden age of rail in the UK!
esturk 5y ago
I think the stove is the only appliance that I will refuse to electrify. Cooking on a electric stove is just not the same, especially if you love to cook.
- turbinerneiter 5y ago
  I never used a gas stove, so I can't compare, but I moved from a regular electric to an induction stove and it's a billion times better. I think it's quite close to a gas stove. Maybe someone who actually used both can chime in.
  - kian 5y ago
    I've used both. Induction stoves are magical, and I also love gas. If you were going to electrify, go induction and you might even enjoy the fact that many things get to temperature faster.
  - Frenchgeek 5y ago
    You have more fine control over the heat with gas, but the timer in my cheap induction plate did save my bacon a few times...
    - mustafa_pasi 5y ago
      Yes that is true. I wish my induction stove allowed more fine tuning of the temperature as well.
      - dependsontheq 5y ago
        That’s the difference between cheap and expensive induction... I don’t need a Bain Marie because I can control the temperature that fine.
        chihuahua 5y ago
        That could be useful for tempering chocolate. Have you tried this?
        dependsontheq 5y ago
        Yes and it works fine, here is a weird Electrolux marketing photo https://www.reviewed.com/ovens/features/induction-101-better-cooking-through-science https://www.reviewed.com/ovens/features/induction-101-better... As weird as that looks I’m quite sure I could do that at home.
        hansthehorse 5y ago
        Temper chocolate with sous vide and you'll never fail again.
  - Swizec 5y ago
    I have used gas, fire, electric, and modern electric (the glass kind). No induction yet. Modern electric is best for consistency and control. Gas is best for fast heat. (wood) Fire is amazing for smores, great for grilling if you have the time to turn it into a radiant heat source. Old electric (metal plates) sucks and is terrible.
    - philips 5y ago
      I bought an Ikea induction to try it out alongside my gas stove. And it seems to heat my cast iron and steel pots and pans just as fast or faster than gas.
  - z2 5y ago
    I mostly use gas. I loved my induction cooktop and its precise and fast heat control when I had it, but the only thing I didn't like was that it required all pots to be flat (I have round woks with only a tiny flat area) and everything had to be compatible with induction, so no clay or aluminum. Even on the traditional gas vs electric debate, the heating power of a gas cooktop isn't guaranteed -- smaller BTU rated stoves take forever to heat with their dinky flames. I once had one that maxed out at around 350F when using a big pan.
  - gxqoz 5y ago
    I've seen several articles recently highlighting problems with gas stoves. Some of these are environmental critiques--gas needs to be retired to deal with climate change. Another critique is around indoor air quality: "On the air-quality front, at least, the evidence against gas stoves is damning. Although cooking food on any stove produces particulate pollutants, burning gas produces nitrogen dioxide, or NO2,, and sometimes also carbon monoxide, according to Brett Singer, a scientist at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory who studies indoor air quality. Brief exposures to air with high concentrations of NO2 can lead to coughing and wheezing for people with asthma or other respiratory issues, and prolonged exposure to the gas can contribute to the development of those conditions, according to the EPA. Homes with gas stoves can contain approximately 50 to 400 percent higher concentrations of NO2 than homes with electric stoves, often resulting in levels of indoor air pollution that would be illegal outdoors, according to a recent report by the Rocky Mountain Institute, a sustainability think tank. “NO2 is invisible and odorless, which is one of the reasons it’s gone so unnoticed,” Brady Seals, a lead author on the report, says." https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/10/gas-stoves-are-bad-you-and-environment/616700/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/10/gas-stov...
    - analyte123 5y ago
      Indoor air pollution is only a serious problem for unvented gas stoves. Current building codes require venting for gas stoves and any gas stove installed in the 21st century will have a vent.
      - lozenge 5y ago
        People don't always use the vent.
        cwkoss 5y ago
        Vents should turn on automatically while the burner is ignited and for some amount of time after.
        5y ago
  - KineticLensman 5y ago
    I've also used gas, electric (briefly, years ago) and now induction. Induction is superb: very precisely controllable for everything from long slow simmer to nuking. The flat surfaces are much easier to keep extremely clean and also serve as extra space for putting stuff down when a given ring isn't in use. The only sense in which I preferred the old gas system was the controls themselves which were rotary dials rather than long-press surfaces. But I'm used to that now.
  - odiroot 5y ago
    I find making nice and runny scrambled eggs on electricity really hard to do. Actually induction is even harder with the pulses of energy dissipating so quickly.
    - bryanlarsen 5y ago
      Kenji's method for creamy scrambled eggs works great on induction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXTnq7srJRs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXTnq7srJRs
    - pat2man 5y ago
      You just need a thicker pan.
    - cbovis 5y ago
      Try a pot not a pan, cook slowly, and turn often with a silicone spatula. I find this method to be fool proof! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUP7U5vTMM0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUP7U5vTMM0
      - odiroot 5y ago
        I use Gordon's way for years now but I can only make it work on gas. Thanks for the link though :)
  - mountainboy 5y ago
    Induction stoves are the highest EMF polluting device in a typical household. In particular they emit a large magnetic field. source: https://emfcaution.com/home-appliances-emf-readings/#1_Induction_Cooktop https://emfcaution.com/home-appliances-emf-readings/#1_Induc... You can do what you want, but I'll stick with gas and a vent fan, thanks.
    - throw0101a 5y ago
      > Induction stoves are the highest EMF polluting device in a typical household. In particular they emit a large magnetic field. And? You say this like the problem with this is obvious / self-evident. (Feel free to get technical: I have an EE.) The author of your source: > My interest in the topic of EMF radiation is two-fold: > I have studied Information Science and worked with router communication, Wi-Fi network, and fiber optics communication during the last 5 years. So I consider myself well-educated on parts of the technical aspects of the problem. > I am married to a wonderful girl who is hyper-sensitive. She can literally feel high levels of EMF radiation on her skin when she is near strong Wi-Fi signals or other sources of electromagnetic fields like induction stoves. * https://emfcaution.com/about-us/ https://emfcaution.com/about-us/
      - IkmoIkmo 5y ago
        And to note, no evidence in double blind tests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivi...
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    I love gas, too, but there's a problem. I installed a CO2 meter in my office. It goes off whenever the stove is used. Going from 600ppm to over a 1000ppm, if I forget to turn on the exhaust fan.
  - globular-toast 5y ago
    It's not close to a gas stove. Not by a long shot. It's just slightly better than normal electric because it doesn't have as much residual heat in the ring. The best thing induction hobs do is boil water, but it's still about half as quick as my kettle.
  - handrous 5y ago
    I've looked into induction, but: 1) It seems like you have to spend a lot to approach even a cheap gas stove, as far as cooking quality; and 2) Even on (say) Reddit threads full of people posting about how great they are, the same people comment a lot about how careful they have to be with the cooktop or how many times they've cracked and ruined(!!!) theirs and had to replace it.
    - cameronh90 5y ago
      Gas is cheaper if you already have a gas installation. However nowadays most gas appliances are long gone and heating installations are increasingly switching to heat pumps. At that point, the cost to install gas just for cooking is hard to justify. Indeed that’s the reason most places I’ve lived no longer have a gas stove. The cost of adding a gas supply is just too high for it to be viable.
      - handrous 5y ago
        > Gas is cheaper if you already have a gas installation. However nowadays most gas appliances are long gone and heating installations are increasingly switching to heat pumps. At that point, the cost to install gas just for cooking is hard to justify. This must be very regional. We get about 3-4 months of hot weather, and 3-4 months of cold, and gas furnaces are still installed in most new homes, because it's much more expensive to heat with electricity. No-one's replacing them with electrical furnaces, when replacing furnaces, certainly—no-one wants the extra expense. Gas stoves are uncommon on lower-end houses, becoming more common as you move up, but gas furnaces are basically standard across the board. Heat pumps are sometimes installed, but I've repeatedly been advised by local HVAC folks that, whatever their claimed efficiency, they're not a great idea in our climate. Certainly it gets too cold here to rely only on them.
    - mynameisash 5y ago
      I have a ~$50 110v induction cooktop I bought on Amazon. It replaced the same thing from about 7 years before that worked pretty much flawlessly until we melted it on the other range. I never babied it - even took it camping, used it to cook in the backyard, and some very slow beer brewing with it. It's unreasonably awesome for the low price, and it makes cooking really fast and easy.
- anonporridge 5y ago
  Hydrogen might be an option. Also for heating as a near drop in replacement for natural gas, although not without problems.
- mustafa_pasi 5y ago
  I grew up cooking on a gas stove, and have since gotten used to electric and induction as I started renting. Electric (with a heating element) is truly horrible. You have to constantly move the pan off the heating element when you want to reduce the heat. Induction, is however, very responsive and I don't really notice a difference between it and gas.
- batrat 5y ago
  Same. I have gas central heating and a gas stove. During the winter electricity is not 100% and is nice to have heating (with ups) or to make a hot tea.
- 0xffff2 5y ago
  I love to cook (even did it professionally for a while), and I just don't get this complaint. If you have good (i.e. thick) pans, response times aren't instant no matter what your heat source. I find the difference between gas and electric to be basically unnoticeable.
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    What do you use for cooking traditionally done on curved cookware?
    - 0xffff2 5y ago
      The only thing that comes to mind when you say curved cookware is a wok. I've never owned a home stove, electric or gas, that got hot enough for proper wok stir frying so I have a standalone 14,000 BTU propane burner for that.
  - samatman 5y ago
    The contrary of this is that, for any given pan, pan + coil latency will be worse than pan + instant response, be that gas or induction. I find the difference between instant responding heat sources and radiant coils to be very noticeable, particularly with thin pans and delicate cooking, so: eggs, in particular.
    - 0xffff2 5y ago
      Of course that's technically true. My point is that the difference in latency is completely unnoticeable for me. The adjustment is so minor if you have good technique and good pans it's not worth mentioning.
      - ip26 5y ago
        I agree that response has mattered progressively less to me as I grow as a cook. However, that’s not really a line of argument that wins many followers.
  - 5y ago
- hannob 5y ago
  It is hardly plausible that a gas grid will be kept operating just for cooking. Generating the gas probably would even be feasible, as the amounts are likely small enough that they could be met with biomethane generated from waste, but operating the grid is unlikely.
  - innocenat 5y ago
    There are gas tanks.
    - hannob 5y ago
      Ok I guess I underestimated the amount of effort people are willing to put into nostalgia while cooking...
      - chihuahua 5y ago
        Many houses in remote locations (in the U.S.) have large propane tanks outside the house, which are refilled periodically by a truck. So people are already doing this for reasons other than nostalgia.
        handrous 5y ago
        Everyone with a propane grill—which is, like, every other house around here—already has a propane tank. You can go swap them out with full tanks at many grocery stores, when they're empty. It's pretty cheap—I'm not sure, but I wouldn't bet on electric being cheaper to cook with than propane. There are conversion kits for gas stoves. And yes, you're right, that's exactly what anyone out in the country with a gas stove already does (as you note, they've got those big propane tanks outside the house that get refilled every so often). [EDIT] natural gas (not propane) is definitely cheaper to heat with, here, than electric. All the HVAC guys don't even recommend heat pumps to supplement the furnace. They recommend putting the money toward higher-efficiency AC and gas furnace instead. They say they're good on paper but more expensive in practice, in our climate (Midwest). Outright electric heating is crazy expensive (I've had it, with a very new furnace even, and it was terrible, was paying a high premium for mediocre heating).
- innocenat 5y ago
  Or you cook Chinese. Cooking Chinese food on induction is so painful.
  - pat2man 5y ago
    You could get a separate induction wok burner.
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    Cooking with a wok was painful regardless on the biggest burner available on the last consumer gas hob I lived with.
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    There are freestanding stoves which can be used where combustion-based heat is necessary. Many are aimed at camping or RV use (you'll see them often in VanLife conversions). So long as fuel is available (propane, butane, alcohol, white gas), this is an option. Note that white gas should not be used indoors.
  - davidgould 5y ago
    I cook Chinese. Cooking on a typical gas rangetop is also painful. Not enough heat, and the wok is not very stable. I use a tabletop butane burner indoors (Iwatani 35FW) and it has at least 3x the heat and the wok is more stable.
    - innocenat 5y ago
      I guess I overestimated US gas range. I live in Japan, and my consumer grade gas range I use is definitely more powerful than Iwatani 35FW.
- deleted 5y ago
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- djrogers 5y ago
  I hope you live someplace that doesn't plan on eliminating them. My town is currently planning to change the permitting laws so that every kitchen/home remodel will require the removal of gas cooktops and ovens. There's a big outcry from those aware of it, but most people don't even know it's happening.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    That will no doubt increase permitting compliance.
- jhallenworld 5y ago
  Electric stove is also safer around kids and elderly.. I have gas stove, hot water, dryers and heating. The hot water and heating were upgraded to gas fairly recently, from oil (I live in New England, there are a lot of legacy heating systems- oil was actually an upgrade in the 1940s from the original coal heat). There is strong incentive to do this because oil was costing me $3800 / year back when oil hit $5 a gallon, whereas gas costs $700 / year. This upgrade costs $14000 (includeing installation of forced air vents, central A/C and gas water heat tank). The previous upgrade from coal to oil was about reducing waste and increasing convenience. With coal, you had to deal with ash waste and stoking. A dual-stage electric heat pump would in theory work and have comparable operating cost, but the install cost was like $30000, had questionable reliability and few contractors even knew about it. Geothermal would also work, but my land is tiny and the cost would have been something like $60000. There was even a Honda generator home co-generation plant option available, but again, expensive and no contractors. What would you do? BTW, my largest utility bill now is actually water, because we are paying for the Boston harbor clean-up in my sewage bill. I'm tempted to illegally use rain water for the toilets... A rooftop solar system is popular around here, but it's not worth it based on my tiny electric bill. We have to get off of fossil fuels, but it's definitely going to take a government mandate backed with financial incentives to get people to switch.
  - justaguy88 5y ago
    > use rain water for the toilets I'm curious about why that's not allowed
    - jhallenworld 5y ago
      They meter the sewage by the amount of water you use, so using an un-metered water source would short-change them. You do have the option of getting a separate water meter for water you use for gardening, to avoid the sewage bill for water you don't send down the drain.
      - meepmorp 5y ago
        I've never heard of metering sewage before. Everywhere I've ever lived had a flat fee per home, or based it on square footage. Is the water utility owned by the local government?
- yongjik 5y ago
  We have a new gas cooktop - we also looked up about the electric ones, but since the existing one was gas, we didn't know how much more it would cost to add wires across the house. It's pretty good and there are a few things you can't do with electric (like roasting a sheet of seaweed), but in general I think they're more or less comparable. One problem with gas is that so much heat is lost to the rising hot air - in addition to inefficiency, it makes all the pot handles burning hot, so I always need to have mittens ready. Never had the problem when I had electric.
  - globular-toast 5y ago
    > it makes all the pot handles burning hot Never had that problem with gas. Not once.
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    Are you using small pans on the larger burners?
- globular-toast 5y ago
  I've used all types of electric hob (that I'm aware of) hotplates, ceramic and induction, and they are all awful. Honestly I think the only people who can deal with them do nothing more than heat up tins of soup on them.
- Mediterraneo10 5y ago
  Some jurisdictions forbid new installations of gas stoves, so over time society might not have much of a choice.
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    And some are contemplating retrofits to replace existing gas lines. Notably, San Francisco.
    - davidgould 5y ago
      I'm hoping for this in Oakland, I'd love to go all electric.
- deleted 5y ago
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- oh_sigh 5y ago
  This sounds similar to the people who would refuse to upgrade to automobiles because horses were better than cars. Induction is better in almost every way over gas. There are a few minor things you can't do it with it, like wok cooking or charring peppers etc. But for those instances, there are easy workarounds, I just use my turkey fryer for wok work, and use a handheld blowtorch for charring.
Animats 5y ago
We'll probably still need natural gas for heating for a few more decades. But it's pretty clear that everything that moves on wheels is going electric.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  Nah. It’s pretty easy to electrify heating, too. A ground source heat pump or even a good (not mediocre) air source heat pump can reduce the energy cost of heating with electricity to the same as gas.
  - boulos 5y ago
    Yeah, depending on your climate, a heat pump can have a Coefficient of Performance [1] of like 3.5. If you don’t take this into account and just take “natural gas in therms => kWh” it often seems like a heat pump would be a large increase. Divide by 3 and it’s suddenly much better :). [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance
    - sbradford26 5y ago
      Also ground source heat pumps can have COPs in the 4-4.5 range and also keep that performance through a wide temperature range unlike air source heat pumps. Sadly air source heat pumps COP really start to drop around 0F even with the new hyper heat models. Given that I would still probably prefer an air source heat pump over using heating oil or propane.
      - pitaj 5y ago
        Yeah the reason they stay in the higher range is because they're pumping from a source of higher temperature in the first place. They're also more effective at air conditioning because they're pumping into a cooler medium.
  - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
    As someone who lives in a climate that pretty reliably sees -40C and a week of the mid -30's ever year I think that the only option is a ground source heat pump - I can't see an air heat pump putting out 80,000 BTUs when it is at its least efficient. I wonder how that works for a city - is the idea that everyone drills their own 15 foot hole? Our frost can reach down to ~8 feet.
Robotbeat 5y ago
> * More of the energy we use will come from the electric socket. And we aren’t ready.* I don’t get this argument that increasing electricity generation is going to be particularly hard. From 1950 to 1959, the US more than doubled electricity generation. The article says by 2050 we’ll need about double current electricity production. That’s three times as long! From 1950 to 1973, just 23 years, electricity production increased by over 450%. People trying to make it sound like this will be unprecedentedly hard either forgot about the time when America used to grow electricity quickly, or they’re pessimistic about modern America’s ability to build anything big any more.
- anonporridge 5y ago
  > or they’re pessimistic about modern America’s ability to build anything big any more. This wouldn't be an entirely unfounded concern.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    Yeah, I was throwing the author a bone, there. Unfortunately, with scare articles like this, it’s somewhat of a self fulfilling prophecy. We need articles talking about how it’s relatively easy given historical capabilities, but we need actual action.
    - anonporridge 5y ago
      True that. Setting expectations and believing something is possible is an underrated part of the process to get there. Pessimism leads to inaction.
    - asdff 5y ago
      Too bad the nature of politics has changed. We need another FDR and WPA. Too many politicans favor crafting lucrative public contracts to their cabal of friends than crafting a productive public works project. There is no job security in that. Another big issue is the cost to run. In order to be a decent candidate, you need to buy national advertising, which is owned by a handful of companies, which would prefer certain candidates who would provide them with profitable legislation. The current crop is rotten and the mechanisms we have to get a new one are coopted by these entrenched private interest groups who actively fight to ensure their profitable status quo doesn't change, and only does if a profitable angle has been already conceived. Maybe this is the American Way.
Maximus9000 5y ago
I need to update my home hot water heater. I'd like a tankless instant hot water heater. Despite wanting to do my part for climate change, all indications point me towards getting as natural gas unit instead of electric.
- conk 5y ago
  I’m curious why your preference is for tankless?
  - Maximus9000 5y ago
    * Saves space in utility room * uses less energy * never run out of hot water * units are longer lasting
    - conk 5y ago
      I’ve had tankless and now have a rheem heat pump water heater. The rheem uses far less energy (~60 kWh/mo) then the instant water heater. Lifespan I’m not so sure about. I know depending on the water quality they can have issues. I’ve seen many tank water heaters still working after 30 years with little to no service. Tankless are smaller and it’s true they won’t run out of hot water so they do have that going for them.
    - ip26 5y ago
      An idea for you - consider an electric tanked with a drain water heat recovery unit. Even lower energy usage than a tankless, and while you can still run out of hot water the DWHR significantly accelerates the re-heating. The DWHR unit should last basically forever. This is what I did, been very happy. Total cost wasn't more than $1,600 (DIY). Tankless is a nice idea but was just too complicated to ever pay for itself as a retrofit.
      - ip26 5y ago
        Just to be explicit on the cost, it was something like: Electric Tanked WH: $600 DWHR: $800 Parts, pipe, new electrical circuit, new breaker, etc: $200
11235813213455 5y ago
I don't really understand electric bikes, on a flat surface, riding a bike is effortless for me (I don't really try to go fast, 20km/h is good enough), if it goes slightly uphill then it's a good opportunity to do a bit of exercise, but really, you can ride bikes with very little (own) energy, and that's super healthy, no engines, thanks I think bicyles will become a primary transport in the next decades, electric or not
- psgibbs 5y ago
  Range goes way up – electrification can turn a 10+ mile commute from something intense (where you need a shower when you arrive) into something manageable. It allows bikes to be a substitute for far more things that you'd otherwise use a different mode of transportation for.
  - plorg 5y ago
    Put slightly differently, electric bikes (and scooters for that matter) make those transportation forms accessible to a much larger number of people.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- samatman 5y ago
  If I were inclined to use the modern 'gotchas' rhetorically, I would call this comment ableist. Instead I'll just point out that being young(ish), (reasonably) healthy, and having only slightly uphill to worry about, are all luxuries. Electric bikes make bicycling accessible to many more people, and their embodied and operating energies are quite modest. Best of all, they don't take away your ability to ride a pushbike! Or brag about it on the Internet.
  - 11235813213455 5y ago
    I understand, but honestly I'm 36, commuted for many years (South-East of France, not really flat except sea-side), I've currently a re-broken clavicle since 10 days, and yet I still use my (modest) bike (sort of partially-temporarily disabled, that's annoying for the rest of life though). My energy is modest at least I'm maybe shaped for hills, it's just that as I explained, I ride slowly. You can spend as much energy as someone on his electric bike, it's just that you need to go slower, and not be stressed by time. I just wanted to say there are some mental barriers and false opinions on the difficulty of bike, or societal (like the fact to sweat ..) which can be overriden
analyte123 5y ago
I know that authors don't write headlines, but this article should be headlined, "Touted for Climate Change Benefits, Energy Electrification Has Stalled and Poses New Risks and Costs". Most of their electric energy ratio graphs are flat for a twenty year period. While there have been major improvements in batteries and some improvements in efficiency, real electricity prices have not decreased in the same twenty years. The author correctly points out that electrification makes homes far more vulnerable to service disruption unless everybody shells out $10k+ for solar and batteries. Even then, you're going to need more Powerwalls than most people will ever buy to have hot water, transportation, and unspoiled food after a hurricane.
asdff 5y ago
Moving to an apartment with a gas stove and gas heat has probably saved me thousands of dollars in utility bills. Electric heat is so expensive and seems so wasteful, especially when my winter gas bill is like $18 a month (gets into the 40s-50s so not terribly cold, but used daily in winter).
- hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
  Electric heat pumps use less electricity than electric resistance heating, especially in a climate like yours that does not get truly frigid temps. As a side benefit they also offer efficient cooling during hot weather.
  - djrogers 5y ago
    They still cost more in many places than gas heaters.
    - throw0101a 5y ago
      Yes, there's a ROI period. It's a matter of pay now or pay later (over time). Obligatory Technology Connections video: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J52mDjZzto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J52mDjZzto
  - ip26 5y ago
    In the case of your parent comment, where winter temps don't go below 40-50, they don't even need a fancy heat pump, just a regular A/C with a reversing valve, which are not much more expensive.
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    Yeah, I live in a mild climate and my previous house was in-ceiling electric resistance heating. We mostly just bundled up, but just for a lark, I set all the thermostats to 65 for the month of January to see how much it would cost. It was a bit over $1000. We had the warmest attic on the block though, I'm sure.
eyelovewe 5y ago
We should note that the WSJ is owned by Rupert Murdoch.
- eyelovewe 5y ago
  Nice, I get dinged for pointing out the fact that the owner of the publisher of this story has spent his life fueling climate change denialism and FUD. The WSJ is not a good source for news in the alleged trouble with electrification of vehicles. They are spreading FUD. It was immoral to downvote my previous simple factual statement. Now that I explained why I downvoted, you could disagree etc, but there is no planet where my previous factual statement deserves downvotes.
- eyelovewe 5y ago
  So, a factual statement gets downvotes around here? Who did that to me? I wanna know.
- eyelovewe 5y ago
  @dang, your moderation is needed here. I am being flagged unjustly
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    Being factually true doesn't mean its a productive contribution and not the kind of low-effort dismissal discouraged by the rules (I personally don’t think it warrants flagging, but I don’t think that or downvotes are clearly unjust, either.)
    - eyelovewe 5y ago
      The fact is material and pertinent. It is absolutely objectively pertinent to whether the WSJ journal is earnestly acting in good faith with a long history of anti-electrification articles. Whether you AGREE with my assessment that, no they are not a good faith actor, is perhaps an open question. My flagged comment below expressed my OPINION that the WSJ is a bad faith actor in this topic, arguably Rupert Murdoch is responsible for much of climate change denialism. However, flagging a civilly expressed opinion that has a pertinent bearing on the thread is abusing flagging for the sake of suppressing criticism.
ant6n 5y ago
> The idea is being pushed by several groups with a vested interest in seeing it happen—most notably, environmentalists and the tech industry. Those environmentalists are just waiting to collect those dividends on a saved planet, while everybody else gets shafted. > But in some sense, consumers have already made the choice to move toward at least the “electrification of a lot more things,” if not everything. That’s because our smartphones and computers and all the other devices that attach to them require electric power. So electrification is happening, whether we’ve made a conscious decision to electrify or not. Yeah, let’s go back to the good old times of gas-powered computers and smartphones!
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
bklyn11201 5y ago
Information I have learned from reading the Green Building Advisors website over the past two years while building a new house (electric-only although I didn't start with that purpose): 1) Air source heat pumps have become incredibly efficient even in cold climates. 2) Ground source heat pumps are complex and very expensive and probably best suited for large installs like schools. 3) Ductless mini splits are the preferred way to heat and cool most USA (tight) homes. 4) Modern code dictates a tight (measured by air changes per hour) home and making an existing home tighter is usually the best use of time and money. 5) Induction is superior in many ways and air quality points to gas cooking being much worse than previously thought. 6) Heat pump hot water heaters (with tank) are the most efficient way to provide hot water. 7) Tankless electric is difficult because of the huge spikes of power it needs. Maybe if you have a battery with your solar setup, it can work better. 8) Tankless also seems to have more maintenance issues than expected (e.g., it's not maintenance free as I imagined). 9) Once your house becomes very tight (measured by air changes per hour), you will need to bring in fresh air. An ERV is efficient at exchanging stale, temp-regulated air with outside air. 10) Building tight, all-electric, with solar will provide a comfortable, clean, long-lasting house, but it will be quite a bit more expensive. Possibly 30%+ more expensive than using standard contractor choices.
- danans 5y ago
  > 10) Building tight, all-electric, with solar will provide a comfortable, clean, long-lasting house, but it will be quite a bit more expensive. Possibly 30%+ more expensive than using standard contractor choices. I'm just finishing doing a high performance renovation ( <1 ACH50, all electric, heat pumps, HRV, etc.). For new construction, the difference is more like +5-10% - the materials are marginally more expensive, and the labor doesn't require extremely specialized skills. The HVAC equipment is the very expensive part. For a renovation, it's more like 20% more expensive but it can vary widely depending on the existing house's condition and the original build quality. I personally saved a boatload by doing the high performance air sealing work myself - it's not that hard once you get the hang of it, just laborious.
  - lbotos 5y ago
jonbaer 5y ago
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/simultaneous-hack-of-ev-chargers-could-cause-manhattan-blackout-nyu-resear/560974/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/simultaneous-hack-of-ev-cha...

92 points by elorant 5y ago

https://archive.is/hdCjz https://archive.is/hdCjz

Every election in UK the last few years labour say they will electrify the rest of our railways, the Tories say they will too. The Tories get in and then don't do it.

Xophmeister 5y ago
This is probably not an HN-approved comment, but if we can find a party donor or friend of a cabinet minister who also happens to be in the railway industry, I’m sure we’d see a new golden age of rail in the UK!

esturk 5y ago

I think the stove is the only appliance that I will refuse to electrify. Cooking on a electric stove is just not the same, especially if you love to cook.

turbinerneiter 5y ago
I never used a gas stove, so I can't compare, but I moved from a regular electric to an induction stove and it's a billion times better. I think it's quite close to a gas stove. Maybe someone who actually used both can chime in.
- kian 5y ago
  I've used both. Induction stoves are magical, and I also love gas. If you were going to electrify, go induction and you might even enjoy the fact that many things get to temperature faster.
- Frenchgeek 5y ago
  You have more fine control over the heat with gas, but the timer in my cheap induction plate did save my bacon a few times...
  - mustafa_pasi 5y ago
    Yes that is true. I wish my induction stove allowed more fine tuning of the temperature as well.
    - dependsontheq 5y ago
      That’s the difference between cheap and expensive induction... I don’t need a Bain Marie because I can control the temperature that fine.
      - chihuahua 5y ago
        That could be useful for tempering chocolate. Have you tried this?
        dependsontheq 5y ago
        Yes and it works fine, here is a weird Electrolux marketing photo https://www.reviewed.com/ovens/features/induction-101-better-cooking-through-science https://www.reviewed.com/ovens/features/induction-101-better... As weird as that looks I’m quite sure I could do that at home.
        hansthehorse 5y ago
        Temper chocolate with sous vide and you'll never fail again.
- Swizec 5y ago
  I have used gas, fire, electric, and modern electric (the glass kind). No induction yet. Modern electric is best for consistency and control. Gas is best for fast heat. (wood) Fire is amazing for smores, great for grilling if you have the time to turn it into a radiant heat source. Old electric (metal plates) sucks and is terrible.
  - philips 5y ago
    I bought an Ikea induction to try it out alongside my gas stove. And it seems to heat my cast iron and steel pots and pans just as fast or faster than gas.
- z2 5y ago
  I mostly use gas. I loved my induction cooktop and its precise and fast heat control when I had it, but the only thing I didn't like was that it required all pots to be flat (I have round woks with only a tiny flat area) and everything had to be compatible with induction, so no clay or aluminum. Even on the traditional gas vs electric debate, the heating power of a gas cooktop isn't guaranteed -- smaller BTU rated stoves take forever to heat with their dinky flames. I once had one that maxed out at around 350F when using a big pan.
- gxqoz 5y ago
  I've seen several articles recently highlighting problems with gas stoves. Some of these are environmental critiques--gas needs to be retired to deal with climate change. Another critique is around indoor air quality: "On the air-quality front, at least, the evidence against gas stoves is damning. Although cooking food on any stove produces particulate pollutants, burning gas produces nitrogen dioxide, or NO2,, and sometimes also carbon monoxide, according to Brett Singer, a scientist at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory who studies indoor air quality. Brief exposures to air with high concentrations of NO2 can lead to coughing and wheezing for people with asthma or other respiratory issues, and prolonged exposure to the gas can contribute to the development of those conditions, according to the EPA. Homes with gas stoves can contain approximately 50 to 400 percent higher concentrations of NO2 than homes with electric stoves, often resulting in levels of indoor air pollution that would be illegal outdoors, according to a recent report by the Rocky Mountain Institute, a sustainability think tank. “NO2 is invisible and odorless, which is one of the reasons it’s gone so unnoticed,” Brady Seals, a lead author on the report, says." https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/10/gas-stoves-are-bad-you-and-environment/616700/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/10/gas-stov...
  - analyte123 5y ago
    Indoor air pollution is only a serious problem for unvented gas stoves. Current building codes require venting for gas stoves and any gas stove installed in the 21st century will have a vent.
    - lozenge 5y ago
      People don't always use the vent.
      - cwkoss 5y ago
        Vents should turn on automatically while the burner is ignited and for some amount of time after.
        5y ago
- KineticLensman 5y ago
  I've also used gas, electric (briefly, years ago) and now induction. Induction is superb: very precisely controllable for everything from long slow simmer to nuking. The flat surfaces are much easier to keep extremely clean and also serve as extra space for putting stuff down when a given ring isn't in use. The only sense in which I preferred the old gas system was the controls themselves which were rotary dials rather than long-press surfaces. But I'm used to that now.
- odiroot 5y ago
  I find making nice and runny scrambled eggs on electricity really hard to do. Actually induction is even harder with the pulses of energy dissipating so quickly.
  - bryanlarsen 5y ago
    Kenji's method for creamy scrambled eggs works great on induction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXTnq7srJRs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXTnq7srJRs
  - pat2man 5y ago
    You just need a thicker pan.
  - cbovis 5y ago
    Try a pot not a pan, cook slowly, and turn often with a silicone spatula. I find this method to be fool proof! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUP7U5vTMM0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUP7U5vTMM0
    - odiroot 5y ago
      I use Gordon's way for years now but I can only make it work on gas. Thanks for the link though :)
- mountainboy 5y ago
  Induction stoves are the highest EMF polluting device in a typical household. In particular they emit a large magnetic field. source: https://emfcaution.com/home-appliances-emf-readings/#1_Induction_Cooktop https://emfcaution.com/home-appliances-emf-readings/#1_Induc... You can do what you want, but I'll stick with gas and a vent fan, thanks.
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    > Induction stoves are the highest EMF polluting device in a typical household. In particular they emit a large magnetic field. And? You say this like the problem with this is obvious / self-evident. (Feel free to get technical: I have an EE.) The author of your source: > My interest in the topic of EMF radiation is two-fold: > I have studied Information Science and worked with router communication, Wi-Fi network, and fiber optics communication during the last 5 years. So I consider myself well-educated on parts of the technical aspects of the problem. > I am married to a wonderful girl who is hyper-sensitive. She can literally feel high levels of EMF radiation on her skin when she is near strong Wi-Fi signals or other sources of electromagnetic fields like induction stoves. * https://emfcaution.com/about-us/ https://emfcaution.com/about-us/
    - IkmoIkmo 5y ago
      And to note, no evidence in double blind tests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_hypersensitivi...
- WalterBright 5y ago
  I love gas, too, but there's a problem. I installed a CO2 meter in my office. It goes off whenever the stove is used. Going from 600ppm to over a 1000ppm, if I forget to turn on the exhaust fan.
- globular-toast 5y ago
  It's not close to a gas stove. Not by a long shot. It's just slightly better than normal electric because it doesn't have as much residual heat in the ring. The best thing induction hobs do is boil water, but it's still about half as quick as my kettle.
- handrous 5y ago
  I've looked into induction, but: 1) It seems like you have to spend a lot to approach even a cheap gas stove, as far as cooking quality; and 2) Even on (say) Reddit threads full of people posting about how great they are, the same people comment a lot about how careful they have to be with the cooktop or how many times they've cracked and ruined(!!!) theirs and had to replace it.
  - cameronh90 5y ago
    Gas is cheaper if you already have a gas installation. However nowadays most gas appliances are long gone and heating installations are increasingly switching to heat pumps. At that point, the cost to install gas just for cooking is hard to justify. Indeed that’s the reason most places I’ve lived no longer have a gas stove. The cost of adding a gas supply is just too high for it to be viable.
    - handrous 5y ago
      > Gas is cheaper if you already have a gas installation. However nowadays most gas appliances are long gone and heating installations are increasingly switching to heat pumps. At that point, the cost to install gas just for cooking is hard to justify. This must be very regional. We get about 3-4 months of hot weather, and 3-4 months of cold, and gas furnaces are still installed in most new homes, because it's much more expensive to heat with electricity. No-one's replacing them with electrical furnaces, when replacing furnaces, certainly—no-one wants the extra expense. Gas stoves are uncommon on lower-end houses, becoming more common as you move up, but gas furnaces are basically standard across the board. Heat pumps are sometimes installed, but I've repeatedly been advised by local HVAC folks that, whatever their claimed efficiency, they're not a great idea in our climate. Certainly it gets too cold here to rely only on them.
  - mynameisash 5y ago
    I have a ~$50 110v induction cooktop I bought on Amazon. It replaced the same thing from about 7 years before that worked pretty much flawlessly until we melted it on the other range. I never babied it - even took it camping, used it to cook in the backyard, and some very slow beer brewing with it. It's unreasonably awesome for the low price, and it makes cooking really fast and easy.
anonporridge 5y ago
Hydrogen might be an option. Also for heating as a near drop in replacement for natural gas, although not without problems.
mustafa_pasi 5y ago
I grew up cooking on a gas stove, and have since gotten used to electric and induction as I started renting. Electric (with a heating element) is truly horrible. You have to constantly move the pan off the heating element when you want to reduce the heat. Induction, is however, very responsive and I don't really notice a difference between it and gas.
batrat 5y ago
Same. I have gas central heating and a gas stove. During the winter electricity is not 100% and is nice to have heating (with ups) or to make a hot tea.
0xffff2 5y ago
I love to cook (even did it professionally for a while), and I just don't get this complaint. If you have good (i.e. thick) pans, response times aren't instant no matter what your heat source. I find the difference between gas and electric to be basically unnoticeable.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  What do you use for cooking traditionally done on curved cookware?
  - 0xffff2 5y ago
    The only thing that comes to mind when you say curved cookware is a wok. I've never owned a home stove, electric or gas, that got hot enough for proper wok stir frying so I have a standalone 14,000 BTU propane burner for that.
- samatman 5y ago
  The contrary of this is that, for any given pan, pan + coil latency will be worse than pan + instant response, be that gas or induction. I find the difference between instant responding heat sources and radiant coils to be very noticeable, particularly with thin pans and delicate cooking, so: eggs, in particular.
  - 0xffff2 5y ago
    Of course that's technically true. My point is that the difference in latency is completely unnoticeable for me. The adjustment is so minor if you have good technique and good pans it's not worth mentioning.
    - ip26 5y ago
      I agree that response has mattered progressively less to me as I grow as a cook. However, that’s not really a line of argument that wins many followers.
- 5y ago
hannob 5y ago
It is hardly plausible that a gas grid will be kept operating just for cooking. Generating the gas probably would even be feasible, as the amounts are likely small enough that they could be met with biomethane generated from waste, but operating the grid is unlikely.
- innocenat 5y ago
  There are gas tanks.
  - hannob 5y ago
    Ok I guess I underestimated the amount of effort people are willing to put into nostalgia while cooking...
    - chihuahua 5y ago
      Many houses in remote locations (in the U.S.) have large propane tanks outside the house, which are refilled periodically by a truck. So people are already doing this for reasons other than nostalgia.
      - handrous 5y ago
        Everyone with a propane grill—which is, like, every other house around here—already has a propane tank. You can go swap them out with full tanks at many grocery stores, when they're empty. It's pretty cheap—I'm not sure, but I wouldn't bet on electric being cheaper to cook with than propane. There are conversion kits for gas stoves. And yes, you're right, that's exactly what anyone out in the country with a gas stove already does (as you note, they've got those big propane tanks outside the house that get refilled every so often). [EDIT] natural gas (not propane) is definitely cheaper to heat with, here, than electric. All the HVAC guys don't even recommend heat pumps to supplement the furnace. They recommend putting the money toward higher-efficiency AC and gas furnace instead. They say they're good on paper but more expensive in practice, in our climate (Midwest). Outright electric heating is crazy expensive (I've had it, with a very new furnace even, and it was terrible, was paying a high premium for mediocre heating).
innocenat 5y ago
Or you cook Chinese. Cooking Chinese food on induction is so painful.
- pat2man 5y ago
  You could get a separate induction wok burner.
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  Cooking with a wok was painful regardless on the biggest burner available on the last consumer gas hob I lived with.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  There are freestanding stoves which can be used where combustion-based heat is necessary. Many are aimed at camping or RV use (you'll see them often in VanLife conversions). So long as fuel is available (propane, butane, alcohol, white gas), this is an option. Note that white gas should not be used indoors.
- davidgould 5y ago
  I cook Chinese. Cooking on a typical gas rangetop is also painful. Not enough heat, and the wok is not very stable. I use a tabletop butane burner indoors (Iwatani 35FW) and it has at least 3x the heat and the wok is more stable.
  - innocenat 5y ago
    I guess I overestimated US gas range. I live in Japan, and my consumer grade gas range I use is definitely more powerful than Iwatani 35FW.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
djrogers 5y ago
I hope you live someplace that doesn't plan on eliminating them. My town is currently planning to change the permitting laws so that every kitchen/home remodel will require the removal of gas cooktops and ovens. There's a big outcry from those aware of it, but most people don't even know it's happening.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  That will no doubt increase permitting compliance.
jhallenworld 5y ago
Electric stove is also safer around kids and elderly.. I have gas stove, hot water, dryers and heating. The hot water and heating were upgraded to gas fairly recently, from oil (I live in New England, there are a lot of legacy heating systems- oil was actually an upgrade in the 1940s from the original coal heat). There is strong incentive to do this because oil was costing me $3800 / year back when oil hit $5 a gallon, whereas gas costs $700 / year. This upgrade costs $14000 (includeing installation of forced air vents, central A/C and gas water heat tank). The previous upgrade from coal to oil was about reducing waste and increasing convenience. With coal, you had to deal with ash waste and stoking. A dual-stage electric heat pump would in theory work and have comparable operating cost, but the install cost was like $30000, had questionable reliability and few contractors even knew about it. Geothermal would also work, but my land is tiny and the cost would have been something like $60000. There was even a Honda generator home co-generation plant option available, but again, expensive and no contractors. What would you do? BTW, my largest utility bill now is actually water, because we are paying for the Boston harbor clean-up in my sewage bill. I'm tempted to illegally use rain water for the toilets... A rooftop solar system is popular around here, but it's not worth it based on my tiny electric bill. We have to get off of fossil fuels, but it's definitely going to take a government mandate backed with financial incentives to get people to switch.
- justaguy88 5y ago
  > use rain water for the toilets I'm curious about why that's not allowed
  - jhallenworld 5y ago
    They meter the sewage by the amount of water you use, so using an un-metered water source would short-change them. You do have the option of getting a separate water meter for water you use for gardening, to avoid the sewage bill for water you don't send down the drain.
    - meepmorp 5y ago
      I've never heard of metering sewage before. Everywhere I've ever lived had a flat fee per home, or based it on square footage. Is the water utility owned by the local government?
yongjik 5y ago
We have a new gas cooktop - we also looked up about the electric ones, but since the existing one was gas, we didn't know how much more it would cost to add wires across the house. It's pretty good and there are a few things you can't do with electric (like roasting a sheet of seaweed), but in general I think they're more or less comparable. One problem with gas is that so much heat is lost to the rising hot air - in addition to inefficiency, it makes all the pot handles burning hot, so I always need to have mittens ready. Never had the problem when I had electric.
- globular-toast 5y ago
  > it makes all the pot handles burning hot Never had that problem with gas. Not once.
- Symbiote 5y ago
  Are you using small pans on the larger burners?
globular-toast 5y ago
I've used all types of electric hob (that I'm aware of) hotplates, ceramic and induction, and they are all awful. Honestly I think the only people who can deal with them do nothing more than heat up tins of soup on them.
Mediterraneo10 5y ago
Some jurisdictions forbid new installations of gas stoves, so over time society might not have much of a choice.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  And some are contemplating retrofits to replace existing gas lines. Notably, San Francisco.
  - davidgould 5y ago
    I'm hoping for this in Oakland, I'd love to go all electric.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
oh_sigh 5y ago
This sounds similar to the people who would refuse to upgrade to automobiles because horses were better than cars. Induction is better in almost every way over gas. There are a few minor things you can't do it with it, like wok cooking or charring peppers etc. But for those instances, there are easy workarounds, I just use my turkey fryer for wok work, and use a handheld blowtorch for charring.

Animats 5y ago

We'll probably still need natural gas for heating for a few more decades. But it's pretty clear that everything that moves on wheels is going electric.

Robotbeat 5y ago
Nah. It’s pretty easy to electrify heating, too. A ground source heat pump or even a good (not mediocre) air source heat pump can reduce the energy cost of heating with electricity to the same as gas.
- boulos 5y ago
  Yeah, depending on your climate, a heat pump can have a Coefficient of Performance [1] of like 3.5. If you don’t take this into account and just take “natural gas in therms => kWh” it often seems like a heat pump would be a large increase. Divide by 3 and it’s suddenly much better :). [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_performance
  - sbradford26 5y ago
    Also ground source heat pumps can have COPs in the 4-4.5 range and also keep that performance through a wide temperature range unlike air source heat pumps. Sadly air source heat pumps COP really start to drop around 0F even with the new hyper heat models. Given that I would still probably prefer an air source heat pump over using heating oil or propane.
    - pitaj 5y ago
      Yeah the reason they stay in the higher range is because they're pumping from a source of higher temperature in the first place. They're also more effective at air conditioning because they're pumping into a cooler medium.
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
  As someone who lives in a climate that pretty reliably sees -40C and a week of the mid -30's ever year I think that the only option is a ground source heat pump - I can't see an air heat pump putting out 80,000 BTUs when it is at its least efficient. I wonder how that works for a city - is the idea that everyone drills their own 15 foot hole? Our frost can reach down to ~8 feet.

Robotbeat 5y ago

> * More of the energy we use will come from the electric socket. And we aren’t ready.* I don’t get this argument that increasing electricity generation is going to be particularly hard. From 1950 to 1959, the US more than doubled electricity generation. The article says by 2050 we’ll need about double current electricity production. That’s three times as long! From 1950 to 1973, just 23 years, electricity production increased by over 450%. People trying to make it sound like this will be unprecedentedly hard either forgot about the time when America used to grow electricity quickly, or they’re pessimistic about modern America’s ability to build anything big any more.

anonporridge 5y ago
> or they’re pessimistic about modern America’s ability to build anything big any more. This wouldn't be an entirely unfounded concern.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  Yeah, I was throwing the author a bone, there. Unfortunately, with scare articles like this, it’s somewhat of a self fulfilling prophecy. We need articles talking about how it’s relatively easy given historical capabilities, but we need actual action.
  - anonporridge 5y ago
    True that. Setting expectations and believing something is possible is an underrated part of the process to get there. Pessimism leads to inaction.
  - asdff 5y ago
    Too bad the nature of politics has changed. We need another FDR and WPA. Too many politicans favor crafting lucrative public contracts to their cabal of friends than crafting a productive public works project. There is no job security in that. Another big issue is the cost to run. In order to be a decent candidate, you need to buy national advertising, which is owned by a handful of companies, which would prefer certain candidates who would provide them with profitable legislation. The current crop is rotten and the mechanisms we have to get a new one are coopted by these entrenched private interest groups who actively fight to ensure their profitable status quo doesn't change, and only does if a profitable angle has been already conceived. Maybe this is the American Way.

Maximus9000 5y ago

I need to update my home hot water heater. I'd like a tankless instant hot water heater. Despite wanting to do my part for climate change, all indications point me towards getting as natural gas unit instead of electric.

conk 5y ago
I’m curious why your preference is for tankless?
- Maximus9000 5y ago
  * Saves space in utility room * uses less energy * never run out of hot water * units are longer lasting
  - conk 5y ago
    I’ve had tankless and now have a rheem heat pump water heater. The rheem uses far less energy (~60 kWh/mo) then the instant water heater. Lifespan I’m not so sure about. I know depending on the water quality they can have issues. I’ve seen many tank water heaters still working after 30 years with little to no service. Tankless are smaller and it’s true they won’t run out of hot water so they do have that going for them.
  - ip26 5y ago
    An idea for you - consider an electric tanked with a drain water heat recovery unit. Even lower energy usage than a tankless, and while you can still run out of hot water the DWHR significantly accelerates the re-heating. The DWHR unit should last basically forever. This is what I did, been very happy. Total cost wasn't more than $1,600 (DIY). Tankless is a nice idea but was just too complicated to ever pay for itself as a retrofit.
    - ip26 5y ago
      Just to be explicit on the cost, it was something like: Electric Tanked WH: $600 DWHR: $800 Parts, pipe, new electrical circuit, new breaker, etc: $200

11235813213455 5y ago

I don't really understand electric bikes, on a flat surface, riding a bike is effortless for me (I don't really try to go fast, 20km/h is good enough), if it goes slightly uphill then it's a good opportunity to do a bit of exercise, but really, you can ride bikes with very little (own) energy, and that's super healthy, no engines, thanks I think bicyles will become a primary transport in the next decades, electric or not

psgibbs 5y ago
Range goes way up – electrification can turn a 10+ mile commute from something intense (where you need a shower when you arrive) into something manageable. It allows bikes to be a substitute for far more things that you'd otherwise use a different mode of transportation for.
- plorg 5y ago
  Put slightly differently, electric bikes (and scooters for that matter) make those transportation forms accessible to a much larger number of people.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
samatman 5y ago
If I were inclined to use the modern 'gotchas' rhetorically, I would call this comment ableist. Instead I'll just point out that being young(ish), (reasonably) healthy, and having only slightly uphill to worry about, are all luxuries. Electric bikes make bicycling accessible to many more people, and their embodied and operating energies are quite modest. Best of all, they don't take away your ability to ride a pushbike! Or brag about it on the Internet.
- 11235813213455 5y ago
  I understand, but honestly I'm 36, commuted for many years (South-East of France, not really flat except sea-side), I've currently a re-broken clavicle since 10 days, and yet I still use my (modest) bike (sort of partially-temporarily disabled, that's annoying for the rest of life though). My energy is modest at least I'm maybe shaped for hills, it's just that as I explained, I ride slowly. You can spend as much energy as someone on his electric bike, it's just that you need to go slower, and not be stressed by time. I just wanted to say there are some mental barriers and false opinions on the difficulty of bike, or societal (like the fact to sweat ..) which can be overriden

analyte123 5y ago

I know that authors don't write headlines, but this article should be headlined, "Touted for Climate Change Benefits, Energy Electrification Has Stalled and Poses New Risks and Costs". Most of their electric energy ratio graphs are flat for a twenty year period. While there have been major improvements in batteries and some improvements in efficiency, real electricity prices have not decreased in the same twenty years. The author correctly points out that electrification makes homes far more vulnerable to service disruption unless everybody shells out $10k+ for solar and batteries. Even then, you're going to need more Powerwalls than most people will ever buy to have hot water, transportation, and unspoiled food after a hurricane.

asdff 5y ago

Moving to an apartment with a gas stove and gas heat has probably saved me thousands of dollars in utility bills. Electric heat is so expensive and seems so wasteful, especially when my winter gas bill is like $18 a month (gets into the 40s-50s so not terribly cold, but used daily in winter).

hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
Electric heat pumps use less electricity than electric resistance heating, especially in a climate like yours that does not get truly frigid temps. As a side benefit they also offer efficient cooling during hot weather.
- djrogers 5y ago
  They still cost more in many places than gas heaters.
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    Yes, there's a ROI period. It's a matter of pay now or pay later (over time). Obligatory Technology Connections video: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J52mDjZzto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J52mDjZzto
- ip26 5y ago
  In the case of your parent comment, where winter temps don't go below 40-50, they don't even need a fancy heat pump, just a regular A/C with a reversing valve, which are not much more expensive.
- aidenn0 5y ago
  Yeah, I live in a mild climate and my previous house was in-ceiling electric resistance heating. We mostly just bundled up, but just for a lark, I set all the thermostats to 65 for the month of January to see how much it would cost. It was a bit over $1000. We had the warmest attic on the block though, I'm sure.

eyelovewe 5y ago

We should note that the WSJ is owned by Rupert Murdoch.

eyelovewe 5y ago
Nice, I get dinged for pointing out the fact that the owner of the publisher of this story has spent his life fueling climate change denialism and FUD. The WSJ is not a good source for news in the alleged trouble with electrification of vehicles. They are spreading FUD. It was immoral to downvote my previous simple factual statement. Now that I explained why I downvoted, you could disagree etc, but there is no planet where my previous factual statement deserves downvotes.
eyelovewe 5y ago
So, a factual statement gets downvotes around here? Who did that to me? I wanna know.
eyelovewe 5y ago
@dang, your moderation is needed here. I am being flagged unjustly
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  Being factually true doesn't mean its a productive contribution and not the kind of low-effort dismissal discouraged by the rules (I personally don’t think it warrants flagging, but I don’t think that or downvotes are clearly unjust, either.)
  - eyelovewe 5y ago
    The fact is material and pertinent. It is absolutely objectively pertinent to whether the WSJ journal is earnestly acting in good faith with a long history of anti-electrification articles. Whether you AGREE with my assessment that, no they are not a good faith actor, is perhaps an open question. My flagged comment below expressed my OPINION that the WSJ is a bad faith actor in this topic, arguably Rupert Murdoch is responsible for much of climate change denialism. However, flagging a civilly expressed opinion that has a pertinent bearing on the thread is abusing flagging for the sake of suppressing criticism.

ant6n 5y ago

> The idea is being pushed by several groups with a vested interest in seeing it happen—most notably, environmentalists and the tech industry. Those environmentalists are just waiting to collect those dividends on a saved planet, while everybody else gets shafted. > But in some sense, consumers have already made the choice to move toward at least the “electrification of a lot more things,” if not everything. That’s because our smartphones and computers and all the other devices that attach to them require electric power. So electrification is happening, whether we’ve made a conscious decision to electrify or not. Yeah, let’s go back to the good old times of gas-powered computers and smartphones!

deleted 5y ago
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bklyn11201 5y ago

Information I have learned from reading the Green Building Advisors website over the past two years while building a new house (electric-only although I didn't start with that purpose): 1) Air source heat pumps have become incredibly efficient even in cold climates. 2) Ground source heat pumps are complex and very expensive and probably best suited for large installs like schools. 3) Ductless mini splits are the preferred way to heat and cool most USA (tight) homes. 4) Modern code dictates a tight (measured by air changes per hour) home and making an existing home tighter is usually the best use of time and money. 5) Induction is superior in many ways and air quality points to gas cooking being much worse than previously thought. 6) Heat pump hot water heaters (with tank) are the most efficient way to provide hot water. 7) Tankless electric is difficult because of the huge spikes of power it needs. Maybe if you have a battery with your solar setup, it can work better. 8) Tankless also seems to have more maintenance issues than expected (e.g., it's not maintenance free as I imagined). 9) Once your house becomes very tight (measured by air changes per hour), you will need to bring in fresh air. An ERV is efficient at exchanging stale, temp-regulated air with outside air. 10) Building tight, all-electric, with solar will provide a comfortable, clean, long-lasting house, but it will be quite a bit more expensive. Possibly 30%+ more expensive than using standard contractor choices.

danans 5y ago
> 10) Building tight, all-electric, with solar will provide a comfortable, clean, long-lasting house, but it will be quite a bit more expensive. Possibly 30%+ more expensive than using standard contractor choices. I'm just finishing doing a high performance renovation ( <1 ACH50, all electric, heat pumps, HRV, etc.). For new construction, the difference is more like +5-10% - the materials are marginally more expensive, and the labor doesn't require extremely specialized skills. The HVAC equipment is the very expensive part. For a renovation, it's more like 20% more expensive but it can vary widely depending on the existing house's condition and the original build quality. I personally saved a boatload by doing the high performance air sealing work myself - it's not that hard once you get the hang of it, just laborious.
- lbotos 5y ago

jonbaer 5y ago

https://www.utilitydive.com/news/simultaneous-hack-of-ev-chargers-could-cause-manhattan-blackout-nyu-resear/560974/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/simultaneous-hack-of-ev-cha...