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I've got two nephews aged 34 and 32 who still live at home and play video games all the time and rarely leave their rooms. Neither has ever had a job that laste

I've got two nephews aged 34 and 32 who still live at home and play video games all the time and rarely leave their rooms. Neither has ever had a job that lasted more than a month or so. Neither ever learned to drive even though they live in a town with little or no public transit. They haven't had any education beyond high school. They seem wholly unprepared to navigate life without their parents. It's a slow motion tragedy.

heroHACK17 5y ago
Did we just become best friends?
izend 5y ago
What will happen once their parents are gone?
- UncleOxidant 5y ago
  I suppose they'll inherit the house if it's paid off by then and continue to live as they are for a time. They seem fond of instant ramen, so I guess maybe they're partially prepared. But then again, when the property tax comes due they'll likely not be able to pay it and eventually become homeless after the house proceeds run out. The future seems pretty bleak for them.
  - dominojab 5y ago
    According to IMF you'll own nothing and be happy™
  - vmception 5y ago
    > They seem fond of instant ramen, so I guess maybe they're partially prepared. For an early death They're already in their early-mid 30s, what outcome do you think is going to happen to make them even less integrated into society?
  - fossuser 5y ago
    They can probably just get a roommate to cover the tax and ramen expense or door dash one day a week or something. Having no rent cost is pretty big.
SMAAART 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET
usrusr 5y ago
I know someone who used to fit that description quite well and then apparently made it out at some point between 35 and 40. Seems like there is always room for a surprise improvement left.
- UncleOxidant 5y ago
  Yeah, well, maybe. But currently they don't seem to have any motivation which is a prerequisite to improvement. I think their parents should provide that motivation by being a good bit tougher on them. They sometimes try this, but then go soft on them again after not very long.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    If I may be so bold, I would encourage you to have a frank discussion around estate planning with their parents to best insulate them from pain in the future. I would recommend the home be put into a trust, a trustee appointed for the trust after parents’ deaths, and enough investments set aside to cover property taxes and maintenance on the property with investment income until death of the children. What happens to the estate after that is a family discussion. I have seen the results of not doing this. Don’t pass the pain down. You want your children to succeed, but you also don’t want them to suffer needlessly. Being homeless is an incredibly difficult gravity well to escape, more so without appreciable skills. (not an attorney or financial planner, not your attorney or financial planner, please consult one of each, educational purposes only)
    - gowld 5y ago
      Alternatively, donate the estate to nonprofits that work to help people get jobs and learn self-care.
  - ihsw 5y ago
    This is the destiny of all men in a world dominated by radical feminist ideology. Both they (your nephews) and the radical feminists in charge (eg: Biden/Harris Administration) look at this situation without blinking and both come to the same conclusion, "if they're employed then they're taking a job away from a woman" and "not a bug, working as intended, won't-fix."
1-6 5y ago
Let's not forget that the Social Security is not getting funded so it's probably going to dry out sooner.
- anoraca 5y ago
  It's constantly funded with taxes... why would you want a bunch of money sitting around losing value to inflation?
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Let’s not derail the thread. Social security is underfunded, but will continue to provide benefits at a reduced level (~76%) when the trust fund runs dry in 2034 (which is just accounting in the gov budget). A variety of small measures can be implemented to ensure ongoing solvency, and likely will take place, even if extreme measures like a contribution from the general fund is needed. The US does not default on its obligations, and as long as there is economic activity, there will be contributions to social security. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund
  - JJMcJ 5y ago
    Removing income cap on Social contributions would be enough, or 1% more on the tax rates with current income cap.
- tacocataco 5y ago
  Just take the income cap off contributions. What's it at, $110-$150k?
  - JJMcJ 5y ago
    $142,000 currently.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
vinni2 5y ago
Reminds me of this case https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44215648.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44215648.amp
- Causality1 5y ago
  That's absolutely wild. As far as I knew the most you owe anyone staying in your house is 24 hours to remove their things after which you can call the sheriff to arrest them as a trespasser. I can't believe they had to go to court over that.
  - lurquer 5y ago
    Most states require all kinds of hoops to evict a resident. Even without a a lease. You can’t just lock them out. Sometimes the penalties for a wrongful eviction can be severe. And, in some states, there are criminal penalties. (As a practical matter, it rarely comes to this as a couch-surfer will go find another couch instead of wasting money on attorneys and the like. But, typically, the owner of the property can’t just unilaterally decide a resident is a trespasser and kick them out.)
    - Causality1 5y ago
      Depends on the state. New York requires an ejectment hearing since he's family but in most states he doesn't have any more rights than a regular guest, since by his own admission he has never been asked to pay rent or contribute to expenses. Outside of certain cities with local protection laws, you can just change the locks when they leave.
JPKab 5y ago
Do you think that video game addiction contributes to this kind of thing, or is the video game addiction a coping mechanism? I think video game addiction is an incredibly underreported and highly destructive phenomenon. I encounter (and had to fire a few days ago) lots of young men who don't appear to ever sleep, and are highly unproductive, unmotivated, and constantly distracted. The kid I had to fire (I call him kid, but he was 28 and incredibly immature) reminded me of a former colleague in the construction industry who relapsed on his crack/cocaine addiction. Distracted, listless, kind of just there for the ride. Edit: Apparently ASKING about video game addiction merits downvotes with zero responses explaining why.
- Vadoff 5y ago
  I don't think video games have anything to do with it. Humans are naturally lazy, and if all your needs are being taken care of for you, then you'll naturally seek entertainment for your boredom. They could do all sorts of things in their spare time, from watching tv shows, movies, youtube, anime, browsing reddit/twitter/instagram/tiktok, etc.
- vecter 5y ago
  I think video game addiction definitely contributes. I used to spend a fair amount of time playing first person shooters in my childhood 15-20 years ago. I haven't played much nowadays but these games provide a sense of "progress" and "accomplishment", which people would probably normally seek outside. Even in the past 5 years, I've caught myself having a reflex to open a game like Apex Legends or Valorant whenever I had a free moment instead of going for a run outside, playing piano, or cooking dinner. The problem is they're really fun also, which exacerbates the problem since it's easy to follow the "greedy optimization" algorithm in life and do things that are fun and rewarding as opposed to doing challenging but longer-term actually rewarding things. This is not to say that you should never play video games. I've found that they've been great for staying in touch with friends I would've otherwise lost touch with. A few hours a week isn't bad at all. It's just that it can snowball very quickly if you're not mindful about how you spend your time. I luckily never really became addicted to any video games, but I'm concerned for my future children who will undoubtedly encounter video games in the future some day.
Vadoff 5y ago
It's the parents fault for coddling them. If they kicked them out at 18, the nephews would definitely need to work and may realize the importance of having a better job/career.
- UncleOxidant 5y ago
  I agree with this. I think it has something to do with my sister (their mom) being a single mom from the time they were 6, 8 years old till she remarried when they were teenagers and their stepfather not wanting to interfere too much in the parenting department.
- izend 5y ago
  Doesn't always work, video games are probably the cheapest addicting entertainment out there. Doesn't take much income to just survive and play video games all day long.
  - Vadoff 5y ago
    But at least they would be working, probably know how to drive a car, and may consider furthering their education/career when they realize how little they make for their time.
    - q-big 5y ago
      ... or commit suicide.
    - notJim 5y ago
      This is maybe a ridiculous question, but why is that so much better? If someone is able to live cheaply, why is it better for them to work in some menial, low-wage job versus being supported by a relative? I think something you have to consider is that if you have low social standing and are poorly educated, your options in life are not necessarily super appealing.
      - nradov 5y ago
bektok2 5y ago
Time for some tough love and kick them out. Not doing them any favors enabling their laziness.
- tetranomiga 5y ago
  He said, in a time of record unemployment and low wages that are impossible to live off of. Almost like there are other factors at play here than just men being lazy. HN loves to forget that not everybody can be a FAANG employee or has the desire to sit in front of a computer writing code their whole lives.
  - vkou 5y ago
    Unemployment is actually at a ten-year average at the moment, and entry-level wages are growing.
    - tetranomiga 5y ago
      Entry-level wages are being heavily outpaced by inflation and COL increases, so they're not actually "growing".
      - vkou 5y ago
        The COL increases are real, but are largely driven by growth in average wages. (Techies moving into your town, and outbidding you on rent.) You are correct to observe that people at the bottom are being left behind.
  - spoonjim 5y ago
    The US is not in record unemployment. Not in either direction.
    - imtringued 5y ago
      It's recovering and that is a good thing. Youth unemployment in Spain or Italy is clearly structural.
paulddraper 5y ago
In Tacoma, I lived nextdoor to a guy who "hurt his back" when he was 22. As far as I can tell, he'll sit on his couch collecting disability until 65, at which point he'll switch to retirement.
- UncleOxidant 5y ago
  Not going to get much of a retirement if he never paid into social security.
  - paulddraper 5y ago
    Yeah, IDK. I won't be there see it.
- spoonjim 5y ago
  There’s a movement towards curtailing disability fraud so he might have a problem in between.
- yaacov 5y ago
  I don’t know this dude, and if you know he’s just scamming the system I’ll take your word for it, but when I’ve experienced serious physical pain I’ve found video games much more helpful than OTC painkillers.
  - paulddraper 5y ago
    I'm not his doctor, and I don't know either. But is that one thing going to stop him from ever working/living a productive life?
    - t-writescode 5y ago
      Yes, if the jobs he can get pay him less than the medical care and stipend he gets for free every month. If you lose disability by starting to work, suddenly life becomes a lot more expensive and you can't afford things. The Welfare Gap is real.
d_burfoot 5y ago
> It's a slow motion tragedy. From an environmental perspective, this kind of minimalist lifestyle actually seems quite healthy. They don't drive, and I assume they don't fly or buy a lot of stuff, so their carbon and other resource footprint is small. They don't take up much extra space, so they reduce suburban sprawl and land required for housing. They probably won't have kids, which further reduces their environmental impact. Maybe we should encourage more people to live this way.
- dvt 5y ago
  > Maybe we should encourage more people to live this way. Sounds like an episode of Black Mirror. Life is meant to be lived; the purpose of life is at least eudaimonia, not slowly rotting away in front of a computer.
  - spoonjim 5y ago
    You can write books, compose music, build software, debate opinions all in front of a computer. It’s not the sitting in front of the computer that’s the problem.
    - stevenhuang 5y ago
      It should be clear from the thread's context we're not talking about those sorts of creative endeavors
  - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
    Not everything would agree. Most of the life on the planet's only hope is to be around long enough to reproduce and then be consumed in one way or the other. Humanity puts a lot of pressure on itself to flourish.
  - throwaway306744 5y ago
    That usage of "lived" is a romanticization. It's the grandparent telling the starry-eyed children about the good old times, glossing over the decades of toil and hardship. Many video games similarly skip time to focus on heroic moments. You don't role-play the 10,000 hours studying tomes at Hogwarts to become a 1st level wizard; instead you start the adventure at graduation, or at most do a training montage.
aminozuur 5y ago
Did they grow up with their biological father?
- UncleOxidant 5y ago
  Not after they were around 6 and 8. Their mom remarried when they were in their teens. So yeah, probably that's part of the problem. But their biological father was also quite lazy and never had a job for very long (part of the reason she left him, that and he did a good bit of gaslighting) so it's not like he was a great example for them to follow (In fact, last I heard he was living with his parents and he's well into his 50s).
  - aminozuur 5y ago
    Thanks for sharing. I sympathize with your cousins, as I believe they are the product of their upbringing. Surely they didn't choose this life either.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      I’m not keen on giving a pass that easily. The US education system is decent, and if they can read and write, and have access to internet and a stable home, it’s on them at some point to take it initiative.
- jwilber 5y ago
  My twin brother and I grew up without a biological father, were very independent at an early age, and both have high-paying jobs in faang. Both well-adjusted, multiple relationships, successful, etc. I see a lot of Jordan Peterson-esque BS professing these “no biological father == neet” rules, and I’m not saying that’s the point you’re leading with your question, but am jumping at any opportunity to dispel it, just in case.
  - Noos 5y ago
    and someone can successfully complete high end raids in world of warcraft despite being a paraplegic. Doesn't mean everyone should be able to do so or its too easy to raid. Don't view outliers and your own experience as standard; high achievers do this way too often and end up discounting the real difficulty and struggles in accomplishing such a thing.
avs733 5y ago
I appreciate the frustration, and why this got shared, but realistically...this is the current observation and gives so little data about how we got here that I worry about the comments attributing blame to your post. Two distant family members of mine fit this description fairly well...One was raised in an unstable, low income household, with mentally ill parents, is on the autism spectrum, and both parents worked multiple jobs that included overnight shifts. There was no ability, energy, or understanding to seek assistance and intervention early enough to make a difference. The other family member comes from effectively the complete opposite end of each one of those variables.
throwaway803453 5y ago
My 45 year old sister is that way now and to a lesser extent my older brother was too. I lost _decades_ of sleep over their situation. Ultimately I didn't know anything when I left home at 18 and I figured it out. Other people can too. How long does it take to learn how to drive, open a checking account, cook, pay bill, etc. after all ? You can learn these things privately over the Internet so there's no longer a social stigma holding you back. To digress, I eventually taught my older brother responsibility, job skills (he worked at my business), how to file taxes, basic math, etc. He became even more bitter and resentful and then one day broke down and admitted how painful it is to know nothing useful and most of what he does know he had to learn from his little brother. But eventually he started just Googling instead of calling me when he had a question he should know the answer to. I truly feel sorry for these lost souls and if I hadn't been naturally good at math, I'd likely be one of them.
- angmarsbane 5y ago
  I want to comment on your brother’s reflection that he was in pain, bitter, and resentful that he did not have useful knowledge/skills and needed your help. There is an incredible amount of shame and self-directed anger and fear in men who have found themselves in this position. All of those feelings are heavy to carry, but they can be shoved aside and ignored by constant entertainment (video games, tv binges etc). Shoved aside they don’t hurt as bad. But those feelings don’t go away. They get bigger as each year goes on & they flare up when confronted with having to do something they aren’t capable of doing (or think they aren’t capable) like moving out, getting a job, getting a better job, having an adult relationship etc. Those feelings of inadequacy have to be taken on and grace & forgiveness has to be granted to oneself in order for them to spread their wings / leave the nest and not come back. For me, the question is how do you get someone so deep into a dark emotional morass to take on the emotional dragons they’ve been hiding from?
  - daddylongstroke 5y ago
    >For me, the question is how do you get someone so deep into a dark emotional morass to take on the emotional dragons they’ve been hiding from? What worked for me was a hero's dose of mushrooms, and about a 4-5 hour talk with the universe to shift my perspective 180 degrees.
berniemadoff69 5y ago
Would your tune be any different if they were 34, staying at home all day playing video games, but somehow earning half a million dollars a year doing some "gamer" Twitch/Patreon/YouTube/influencer streaming schtick? Or, better yet, playing video games all day, but magically manage to make obscene amounts of money "trading cryptocoins" . Would their lifestyles suddenly become acceptable to you, simply because they are "making money" off of their sedentary lifestyle ?
- l-lousy 5y ago
  I think this would somewhat validate his “prepared for life” argument because if they have a lot of money they can provide for themselves (food and transport is pretty easy with the gig economy). (The previous comment used to include something about people wanting to quit their jobs and just play games all day) For your point about playing games all day — there’s definitely some aspect of “having a purpose” that makes some hold down a job even if they are already rich. So for some it’s definitely their life dream to sit in their room all day, and for some having something that you can point to saying “I contributed this” is an invaluable part of their lives
- flycaliguy 5y ago
  I think if they were working from home it would, obviously, be a different story. They could stash some cash away and be able to care for their aging parents in the future.
  - void_mint 5y ago
    (Off topic) Curious why you think it's on the kid to pay for the parent?
- Mediterraneo10 5y ago
  Being an influencer is an enormous amount of work. Sure, one could build a brand around games, but maintaining that brand is constant effort, even though the audience rarely sees it.
- watwut 5y ago
void_mint 5y ago
It's interesting how few (I haven't actually seen any) of the comment replies are addressing the parents. I'd probably put equal onus on the parents to have better parented their children into adulthood.
holoduke 5y ago
I had the same life till my 26th. I then stopped watching television, threw all games away and started studying computer science. I am so happy about that move. I am 40 now. Own multiple IT businesses and have a happy family. Game/TV addiction is really dangerous. You don't have to be a depressed person to fall into it.
- perplex 5y ago
  For some people (myself included) Game/TV addiction is a real problem and can have drastic affects on ones life. (It did for me throughout my 20s/30s). For others it doesn't seem to have negative side effects. My life was held back by time spent gaming for so long and later in life I realized TV was doing the same. Moderation in all things right? For me it is easier to cut them out period. I'm happier and have a far more productive life as a result. I'm now in my 40s and have productive life and career but this didn't start until my mid 30s.
  - alxwu 5y ago
    I'm in my mid 30s and I am going through this addiction of reddit/youtube and other distractions for the past 10 years. I've always known how harmful it is and I want to change. Do you have any tips for someone like me? I was still able to become an engineer, but I feel like I can be better. Like everyone else my motivation and drive was so much higher when I was younger. I might be using these distractions as a form of escapism for my depression.
    - throwaway306744 5y ago
      Cut them out and allow yourself to be bored. Boredom is intolerable. Humans inevitably become more creative and/or social to escape boredom. See what you're drawn to when you cut out media consumption. You can always go back to reddit after a few months if you've just been bored the entire time.
    - holoduke 5y ago
      It's not easy for sure. In my case I found a girlfriend and started living somewhere else. So another change in life helps a lot. Maybe you could search for something like that. Go live in another city albeit for a temporary period. A pet programming job might also help. You might be still behind the pc. But at least it is not wasted with just gaming, movies etc. You could also try to search for a coach/psychologist who can support you going to the change process. Go for it. You will be rewarded.
grawprog 5y ago
I've worked a bunch of jobs over the years where i've ended up being in the homes of a lot of middle class - upper class people, not that it doesn't happen with working class people too, but anyway a common thing i would see was young men my own age or older living at home with their parents, not employed. I remember one lady in particular tried desperately to see if we could get her son a job. He'd taken a crane operator course but was scared of heights. He wouldn't even come in the room or speak with us. The thing is, this guy didn't even seem to help at home. His mom had went out and mowed the entire very large, very sloped front yard before she came in to ask us about a job for her son. He sat in the basement the whole time. Or the time on a weekday afternoon, dude comes out in his jimjams yelling at his mom to make breakfast while she's trying to deal with us in her kitchen which was mostly not usable. Then there was all the people in that age range i worked with who would last less than a week. People who'd show on their first day and immediately ask when break time was or people who'd just walk out half way through the day or people who'd just straight up say they don't care and they'd rather be at home smoking weed. Anyway, this got a bit ranty, i've got plenty more stories from over the years. Suffice to say, this is a trend i've seen a lot over the years first hand.
- yaitsyaboi 5y ago
  As a person who is in this age range and in essentially the opposite position--my disabled mother and college age sister live with me in coastal California--the kind of thing you're describing with the guy who wouldn't come out of the room is bonkers. I know this kind of person exists as an archetype but between your anecdote and the article I'm just baffled at the apparent prevalence. I guess part of it is the fact that my circumstances didn't even make that lifestyle an option. By my late teen years it was increasingly obvious that I had to go in the kind of direction I did if I wanted my family to have a decent life. If I had a middle class nuclear family, is it likely that I would've tore through CS classes and leetcode as much as I did? I kinda doubt it.
  - grawprog 5y ago
    I felt bad writing that seemingly picking on the middle-upper class, because as much as I've seen that there...the worst example I know of is not that. A family member of mine has not ever had a job. Everyone has tried to help him. I've given him two jobs at two different companies personally. His mom works at a dollar store and a cheap clothing store just to pay rent. She begs him to work. He spends all his time playing Xbox. She's gotten to the point where she's going to kick him out and move in with her other son. He's responded by drinking and hanging out with homeless junkies. Thank fuck as far as i know he hasn't started doing the strange purple heroin they do nowadays apparently and shit. But it's really terrible watching this. He's almost 30. There's no reason this should be happening.
walugipnts 5y ago
I’m 35 and burnt out by working almost nonstop since I was 14… I have something to show for it, but I don’t care anymore and would rather live like your nephews.
- foobar33333 5y ago
  I was able to move out after 5 years working as a software developer and my bf also getting a full time developer job. But I recognize I am in the top few % at my age and would not blame anyone for staying with their parents for longer. Especially if they were building up savings to help them in life.
nineteen999 5y ago
I don't even understand how this happens. I was kicked out of home at 16. Neither of my parents would have allowed me to stay at home until my thirties. Then again, I'm a father now and I can't imagine ever asking my daughter to leave home. But I would definitely expect her to have a job and contribute to household expenses well before her 30's.
api 5y ago
This is just the Japanese Hikikomori phenomenon in an American form.
jart 5y ago
Well maybe they're smart enough to know that, in a world where most things have either been automated or offshored, the only purpose most jobs serve in the grand scheme of things is to increase the velocity of capital. If you had a choice between the fake purpose offered by an office job where you get to be a peon, versus the fake purpose offered by a video game where you get to be a hero: which would you choose?
- dcist 5y ago
  But a job provides you real money that gives you real options in life. You can't take someone out on a date with your video game points.
  - throwaway306744 5y ago
    I get what you're saying, but with just "a job" these days you won't be taking that attractive person out on a date either. Real life's feedback loops and progression mechanics are slow and unreliable when compared to games.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - LunaSea 5y ago
    It also removes a lot of options due to the time investment and required location.
anotherman554 5y ago
I may be projecting here but your nephews, if they are like some of my relatives, may not be neurotypical (for example they may have Aspergers disorder). If this is the case their behavior may be better understood in that context that a social one.
- ativzzz 5y ago
  My friend's brother is like this. It's pretty obvious upon talking to him that he has some kind of atypical neurology but his parents completely refuse this, and thus keep him trapped in his little bubble without getting any help.
monkeybutton 5y ago
I want to put some blame on people's focus on university education here. Every guy I've met in this type of situation is someone that isn't stupid, but they don't excel in academia either. Their family treats them like crap because they didn't go to university or dropped after they got there. They become depressed because they compare themselves to their "smarter" peers who appear to have everything worked out are doing great in life. Constantly pushing someone towards university when it's maybe not the best idea for them, then calling them a loser when they bomb out just engenders learned helplessness in the individual. Then people why these individuals stop trying.
- ckdarby 5y ago
  This is the trap of social media and why many people would be healthier and happier if they were able to live & be present in the moment without their phone. Plenty of people will read this comment and think that is not them but if there is not a point in your day when your phone is not on you, out of sights and out of reach for at least an hour you're not as "present" as you think.
etempleton 5y ago
I see this a good bit. And it is hard to get into the psychology of the individuals. I would work any job I could get if I was unemployed. I have taken retail jobs when I was unemployed or we could use extra income. My wife has done the same. A few people I know come to mind that reminds me of your nephews and I simply cannot understand it. Right now there are hiring signs up in almost every business in my town. I would rather work (if I could) than take unemployment even if it would be a pay cut.
cassac 5y ago
They are just waiting for that UBI to kick in. Free ride till the end!
RGamma 5y ago
Maybe they're doomers and have accepted the end.

heroHACK17 5y ago

Did we just become best friends?

izend 5y ago

What will happen once their parents are gone?

UncleOxidant 5y ago
I suppose they'll inherit the house if it's paid off by then and continue to live as they are for a time. They seem fond of instant ramen, so I guess maybe they're partially prepared. But then again, when the property tax comes due they'll likely not be able to pay it and eventually become homeless after the house proceeds run out. The future seems pretty bleak for them.
- dominojab 5y ago
  According to IMF you'll own nothing and be happy™
- vmception 5y ago
  > They seem fond of instant ramen, so I guess maybe they're partially prepared. For an early death They're already in their early-mid 30s, what outcome do you think is going to happen to make them even less integrated into society?
- fossuser 5y ago
  They can probably just get a roommate to cover the tax and ramen expense or door dash one day a week or something. Having no rent cost is pretty big.

SMAAART 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEET

usrusr 5y ago

I know someone who used to fit that description quite well and then apparently made it out at some point between 35 and 40. Seems like there is always room for a surprise improvement left.

UncleOxidant 5y ago
Yeah, well, maybe. But currently they don't seem to have any motivation which is a prerequisite to improvement. I think their parents should provide that motivation by being a good bit tougher on them. They sometimes try this, but then go soft on them again after not very long.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  If I may be so bold, I would encourage you to have a frank discussion around estate planning with their parents to best insulate them from pain in the future. I would recommend the home be put into a trust, a trustee appointed for the trust after parents’ deaths, and enough investments set aside to cover property taxes and maintenance on the property with investment income until death of the children. What happens to the estate after that is a family discussion. I have seen the results of not doing this. Don’t pass the pain down. You want your children to succeed, but you also don’t want them to suffer needlessly. Being homeless is an incredibly difficult gravity well to escape, more so without appreciable skills. (not an attorney or financial planner, not your attorney or financial planner, please consult one of each, educational purposes only)
  - gowld 5y ago
    Alternatively, donate the estate to nonprofits that work to help people get jobs and learn self-care.
- ihsw 5y ago
  This is the destiny of all men in a world dominated by radical feminist ideology. Both they (your nephews) and the radical feminists in charge (eg: Biden/Harris Administration) look at this situation without blinking and both come to the same conclusion, "if they're employed then they're taking a job away from a woman" and "not a bug, working as intended, won't-fix."

1-6 5y ago

Let's not forget that the Social Security is not getting funded so it's probably going to dry out sooner.

anoraca 5y ago
It's constantly funded with taxes... why would you want a bunch of money sitting around losing value to inflation?
toomuchtodo 5y ago
Let’s not derail the thread. Social security is underfunded, but will continue to provide benefits at a reduced level (~76%) when the trust fund runs dry in 2034 (which is just accounting in the gov budget). A variety of small measures can be implemented to ensure ongoing solvency, and likely will take place, even if extreme measures like a contribution from the general fund is needed. The US does not default on its obligations, and as long as there is economic activity, there will be contributions to social security. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund
- JJMcJ 5y ago
  Removing income cap on Social contributions would be enough, or 1% more on the tax rates with current income cap.
tacocataco 5y ago
Just take the income cap off contributions. What's it at, $110-$150k?
- JJMcJ 5y ago
  $142,000 currently.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

vinni2 5y ago

Reminds me of this case https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44215648.amp https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44215648.amp

Causality1 5y ago
That's absolutely wild. As far as I knew the most you owe anyone staying in your house is 24 hours to remove their things after which you can call the sheriff to arrest them as a trespasser. I can't believe they had to go to court over that.
- lurquer 5y ago
  Most states require all kinds of hoops to evict a resident. Even without a a lease. You can’t just lock them out. Sometimes the penalties for a wrongful eviction can be severe. And, in some states, there are criminal penalties. (As a practical matter, it rarely comes to this as a couch-surfer will go find another couch instead of wasting money on attorneys and the like. But, typically, the owner of the property can’t just unilaterally decide a resident is a trespasser and kick them out.)
  - Causality1 5y ago
    Depends on the state. New York requires an ejectment hearing since he's family but in most states he doesn't have any more rights than a regular guest, since by his own admission he has never been asked to pay rent or contribute to expenses. Outside of certain cities with local protection laws, you can just change the locks when they leave.

JPKab 5y ago

Do you think that video game addiction contributes to this kind of thing, or is the video game addiction a coping mechanism? I think video game addiction is an incredibly underreported and highly destructive phenomenon. I encounter (and had to fire a few days ago) lots of young men who don't appear to ever sleep, and are highly unproductive, unmotivated, and constantly distracted. The kid I had to fire (I call him kid, but he was 28 and incredibly immature) reminded me of a former colleague in the construction industry who relapsed on his crack/cocaine addiction. Distracted, listless, kind of just there for the ride. Edit: Apparently ASKING about video game addiction merits downvotes with zero responses explaining why.

Vadoff 5y ago
I don't think video games have anything to do with it. Humans are naturally lazy, and if all your needs are being taken care of for you, then you'll naturally seek entertainment for your boredom. They could do all sorts of things in their spare time, from watching tv shows, movies, youtube, anime, browsing reddit/twitter/instagram/tiktok, etc.
vecter 5y ago
I think video game addiction definitely contributes. I used to spend a fair amount of time playing first person shooters in my childhood 15-20 years ago. I haven't played much nowadays but these games provide a sense of "progress" and "accomplishment", which people would probably normally seek outside. Even in the past 5 years, I've caught myself having a reflex to open a game like Apex Legends or Valorant whenever I had a free moment instead of going for a run outside, playing piano, or cooking dinner. The problem is they're really fun also, which exacerbates the problem since it's easy to follow the "greedy optimization" algorithm in life and do things that are fun and rewarding as opposed to doing challenging but longer-term actually rewarding things. This is not to say that you should never play video games. I've found that they've been great for staying in touch with friends I would've otherwise lost touch with. A few hours a week isn't bad at all. It's just that it can snowball very quickly if you're not mindful about how you spend your time. I luckily never really became addicted to any video games, but I'm concerned for my future children who will undoubtedly encounter video games in the future some day.

Vadoff 5y ago

It's the parents fault for coddling them. If they kicked them out at 18, the nephews would definitely need to work and may realize the importance of having a better job/career.

UncleOxidant 5y ago
I agree with this. I think it has something to do with my sister (their mom) being a single mom from the time they were 6, 8 years old till she remarried when they were teenagers and their stepfather not wanting to interfere too much in the parenting department.
izend 5y ago
Doesn't always work, video games are probably the cheapest addicting entertainment out there. Doesn't take much income to just survive and play video games all day long.
- Vadoff 5y ago
  But at least they would be working, probably know how to drive a car, and may consider furthering their education/career when they realize how little they make for their time.
  - q-big 5y ago
    ... or commit suicide.
  - notJim 5y ago
    This is maybe a ridiculous question, but why is that so much better? If someone is able to live cheaply, why is it better for them to work in some menial, low-wage job versus being supported by a relative? I think something you have to consider is that if you have low social standing and are poorly educated, your options in life are not necessarily super appealing.
    - nradov 5y ago

bektok2 5y ago

Time for some tough love and kick them out. Not doing them any favors enabling their laziness.

tetranomiga 5y ago
He said, in a time of record unemployment and low wages that are impossible to live off of. Almost like there are other factors at play here than just men being lazy. HN loves to forget that not everybody can be a FAANG employee or has the desire to sit in front of a computer writing code their whole lives.
- vkou 5y ago
  Unemployment is actually at a ten-year average at the moment, and entry-level wages are growing.
  - tetranomiga 5y ago
    Entry-level wages are being heavily outpaced by inflation and COL increases, so they're not actually "growing".
    - vkou 5y ago
      The COL increases are real, but are largely driven by growth in average wages. (Techies moving into your town, and outbidding you on rent.) You are correct to observe that people at the bottom are being left behind.
- spoonjim 5y ago
  The US is not in record unemployment. Not in either direction.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    It's recovering and that is a good thing. Youth unemployment in Spain or Italy is clearly structural.

paulddraper 5y ago

In Tacoma, I lived nextdoor to a guy who "hurt his back" when he was 22. As far as I can tell, he'll sit on his couch collecting disability until 65, at which point he'll switch to retirement.

UncleOxidant 5y ago
Not going to get much of a retirement if he never paid into social security.
- paulddraper 5y ago
  Yeah, IDK. I won't be there see it.
spoonjim 5y ago
There’s a movement towards curtailing disability fraud so he might have a problem in between.
yaacov 5y ago
I don’t know this dude, and if you know he’s just scamming the system I’ll take your word for it, but when I’ve experienced serious physical pain I’ve found video games much more helpful than OTC painkillers.
- paulddraper 5y ago
  I'm not his doctor, and I don't know either. But is that one thing going to stop him from ever working/living a productive life?
  - t-writescode 5y ago
    Yes, if the jobs he can get pay him less than the medical care and stipend he gets for free every month. If you lose disability by starting to work, suddenly life becomes a lot more expensive and you can't afford things. The Welfare Gap is real.

d_burfoot 5y ago

> It's a slow motion tragedy. From an environmental perspective, this kind of minimalist lifestyle actually seems quite healthy. They don't drive, and I assume they don't fly or buy a lot of stuff, so their carbon and other resource footprint is small. They don't take up much extra space, so they reduce suburban sprawl and land required for housing. They probably won't have kids, which further reduces their environmental impact. Maybe we should encourage more people to live this way.

dvt 5y ago
> Maybe we should encourage more people to live this way. Sounds like an episode of Black Mirror. Life is meant to be lived; the purpose of life is at least eudaimonia, not slowly rotting away in front of a computer.
- spoonjim 5y ago
  You can write books, compose music, build software, debate opinions all in front of a computer. It’s not the sitting in front of the computer that’s the problem.
  - stevenhuang 5y ago
    It should be clear from the thread's context we're not talking about those sorts of creative endeavors
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
  Not everything would agree. Most of the life on the planet's only hope is to be around long enough to reproduce and then be consumed in one way or the other. Humanity puts a lot of pressure on itself to flourish.
- throwaway306744 5y ago
  That usage of "lived" is a romanticization. It's the grandparent telling the starry-eyed children about the good old times, glossing over the decades of toil and hardship. Many video games similarly skip time to focus on heroic moments. You don't role-play the 10,000 hours studying tomes at Hogwarts to become a 1st level wizard; instead you start the adventure at graduation, or at most do a training montage.

aminozuur 5y ago

Did they grow up with their biological father?

UncleOxidant 5y ago
Not after they were around 6 and 8. Their mom remarried when they were in their teens. So yeah, probably that's part of the problem. But their biological father was also quite lazy and never had a job for very long (part of the reason she left him, that and he did a good bit of gaslighting) so it's not like he was a great example for them to follow (In fact, last I heard he was living with his parents and he's well into his 50s).
- aminozuur 5y ago
  Thanks for sharing. I sympathize with your cousins, as I believe they are the product of their upbringing. Surely they didn't choose this life either.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I’m not keen on giving a pass that easily. The US education system is decent, and if they can read and write, and have access to internet and a stable home, it’s on them at some point to take it initiative.
jwilber 5y ago
My twin brother and I grew up without a biological father, were very independent at an early age, and both have high-paying jobs in faang. Both well-adjusted, multiple relationships, successful, etc. I see a lot of Jordan Peterson-esque BS professing these “no biological father == neet” rules, and I’m not saying that’s the point you’re leading with your question, but am jumping at any opportunity to dispel it, just in case.
- Noos 5y ago
  and someone can successfully complete high end raids in world of warcraft despite being a paraplegic. Doesn't mean everyone should be able to do so or its too easy to raid. Don't view outliers and your own experience as standard; high achievers do this way too often and end up discounting the real difficulty and struggles in accomplishing such a thing.

avs733 5y ago

I appreciate the frustration, and why this got shared, but realistically...this is the current observation and gives so little data about how we got here that I worry about the comments attributing blame to your post. Two distant family members of mine fit this description fairly well...One was raised in an unstable, low income household, with mentally ill parents, is on the autism spectrum, and both parents worked multiple jobs that included overnight shifts. There was no ability, energy, or understanding to seek assistance and intervention early enough to make a difference. The other family member comes from effectively the complete opposite end of each one of those variables.

throwaway803453 5y ago

My 45 year old sister is that way now and to a lesser extent my older brother was too. I lost _decades_ of sleep over their situation. Ultimately I didn't know anything when I left home at 18 and I figured it out. Other people can too. How long does it take to learn how to drive, open a checking account, cook, pay bill, etc. after all ? You can learn these things privately over the Internet so there's no longer a social stigma holding you back. To digress, I eventually taught my older brother responsibility, job skills (he worked at my business), how to file taxes, basic math, etc. He became even more bitter and resentful and then one day broke down and admitted how painful it is to know nothing useful and most of what he does know he had to learn from his little brother. But eventually he started just Googling instead of calling me when he had a question he should know the answer to. I truly feel sorry for these lost souls and if I hadn't been naturally good at math, I'd likely be one of them.

angmarsbane 5y ago
I want to comment on your brother’s reflection that he was in pain, bitter, and resentful that he did not have useful knowledge/skills and needed your help. There is an incredible amount of shame and self-directed anger and fear in men who have found themselves in this position. All of those feelings are heavy to carry, but they can be shoved aside and ignored by constant entertainment (video games, tv binges etc). Shoved aside they don’t hurt as bad. But those feelings don’t go away. They get bigger as each year goes on & they flare up when confronted with having to do something they aren’t capable of doing (or think they aren’t capable) like moving out, getting a job, getting a better job, having an adult relationship etc. Those feelings of inadequacy have to be taken on and grace & forgiveness has to be granted to oneself in order for them to spread their wings / leave the nest and not come back. For me, the question is how do you get someone so deep into a dark emotional morass to take on the emotional dragons they’ve been hiding from?
- daddylongstroke 5y ago
  >For me, the question is how do you get someone so deep into a dark emotional morass to take on the emotional dragons they’ve been hiding from? What worked for me was a hero's dose of mushrooms, and about a 4-5 hour talk with the universe to shift my perspective 180 degrees.

berniemadoff69 5y ago

Would your tune be any different if they were 34, staying at home all day playing video games, but somehow earning half a million dollars a year doing some "gamer" Twitch/Patreon/YouTube/influencer streaming schtick? Or, better yet, playing video games all day, but magically manage to make obscene amounts of money "trading cryptocoins" . Would their lifestyles suddenly become acceptable to you, simply because they are "making money" off of their sedentary lifestyle ?

l-lousy 5y ago
I think this would somewhat validate his “prepared for life” argument because if they have a lot of money they can provide for themselves (food and transport is pretty easy with the gig economy). (The previous comment used to include something about people wanting to quit their jobs and just play games all day) For your point about playing games all day — there’s definitely some aspect of “having a purpose” that makes some hold down a job even if they are already rich. So for some it’s definitely their life dream to sit in their room all day, and for some having something that you can point to saying “I contributed this” is an invaluable part of their lives
flycaliguy 5y ago
I think if they were working from home it would, obviously, be a different story. They could stash some cash away and be able to care for their aging parents in the future.
- void_mint 5y ago
  (Off topic) Curious why you think it's on the kid to pay for the parent?
Mediterraneo10 5y ago
Being an influencer is an enormous amount of work. Sure, one could build a brand around games, but maintaining that brand is constant effort, even though the audience rarely sees it.
watwut 5y ago

void_mint 5y ago

It's interesting how few (I haven't actually seen any) of the comment replies are addressing the parents. I'd probably put equal onus on the parents to have better parented their children into adulthood.

holoduke 5y ago

I had the same life till my 26th. I then stopped watching television, threw all games away and started studying computer science. I am so happy about that move. I am 40 now. Own multiple IT businesses and have a happy family. Game/TV addiction is really dangerous. You don't have to be a depressed person to fall into it.

perplex 5y ago
For some people (myself included) Game/TV addiction is a real problem and can have drastic affects on ones life. (It did for me throughout my 20s/30s). For others it doesn't seem to have negative side effects. My life was held back by time spent gaming for so long and later in life I realized TV was doing the same. Moderation in all things right? For me it is easier to cut them out period. I'm happier and have a far more productive life as a result. I'm now in my 40s and have productive life and career but this didn't start until my mid 30s.
- alxwu 5y ago
  I'm in my mid 30s and I am going through this addiction of reddit/youtube and other distractions for the past 10 years. I've always known how harmful it is and I want to change. Do you have any tips for someone like me? I was still able to become an engineer, but I feel like I can be better. Like everyone else my motivation and drive was so much higher when I was younger. I might be using these distractions as a form of escapism for my depression.
  - throwaway306744 5y ago
    Cut them out and allow yourself to be bored. Boredom is intolerable. Humans inevitably become more creative and/or social to escape boredom. See what you're drawn to when you cut out media consumption. You can always go back to reddit after a few months if you've just been bored the entire time.
  - holoduke 5y ago
    It's not easy for sure. In my case I found a girlfriend and started living somewhere else. So another change in life helps a lot. Maybe you could search for something like that. Go live in another city albeit for a temporary period. A pet programming job might also help. You might be still behind the pc. But at least it is not wasted with just gaming, movies etc. You could also try to search for a coach/psychologist who can support you going to the change process. Go for it. You will be rewarded.

grawprog 5y ago

I've worked a bunch of jobs over the years where i've ended up being in the homes of a lot of middle class - upper class people, not that it doesn't happen with working class people too, but anyway a common thing i would see was young men my own age or older living at home with their parents, not employed. I remember one lady in particular tried desperately to see if we could get her son a job. He'd taken a crane operator course but was scared of heights. He wouldn't even come in the room or speak with us. The thing is, this guy didn't even seem to help at home. His mom had went out and mowed the entire very large, very sloped front yard before she came in to ask us about a job for her son. He sat in the basement the whole time. Or the time on a weekday afternoon, dude comes out in his jimjams yelling at his mom to make breakfast while she's trying to deal with us in her kitchen which was mostly not usable. Then there was all the people in that age range i worked with who would last less than a week. People who'd show on their first day and immediately ask when break time was or people who'd just walk out half way through the day or people who'd just straight up say they don't care and they'd rather be at home smoking weed. Anyway, this got a bit ranty, i've got plenty more stories from over the years. Suffice to say, this is a trend i've seen a lot over the years first hand.

yaitsyaboi 5y ago
As a person who is in this age range and in essentially the opposite position--my disabled mother and college age sister live with me in coastal California--the kind of thing you're describing with the guy who wouldn't come out of the room is bonkers. I know this kind of person exists as an archetype but between your anecdote and the article I'm just baffled at the apparent prevalence. I guess part of it is the fact that my circumstances didn't even make that lifestyle an option. By my late teen years it was increasingly obvious that I had to go in the kind of direction I did if I wanted my family to have a decent life. If I had a middle class nuclear family, is it likely that I would've tore through CS classes and leetcode as much as I did? I kinda doubt it.
- grawprog 5y ago
  I felt bad writing that seemingly picking on the middle-upper class, because as much as I've seen that there...the worst example I know of is not that. A family member of mine has not ever had a job. Everyone has tried to help him. I've given him two jobs at two different companies personally. His mom works at a dollar store and a cheap clothing store just to pay rent. She begs him to work. He spends all his time playing Xbox. She's gotten to the point where she's going to kick him out and move in with her other son. He's responded by drinking and hanging out with homeless junkies. Thank fuck as far as i know he hasn't started doing the strange purple heroin they do nowadays apparently and shit. But it's really terrible watching this. He's almost 30. There's no reason this should be happening.

walugipnts 5y ago

I’m 35 and burnt out by working almost nonstop since I was 14… I have something to show for it, but I don’t care anymore and would rather live like your nephews.

foobar33333 5y ago
I was able to move out after 5 years working as a software developer and my bf also getting a full time developer job. But I recognize I am in the top few % at my age and would not blame anyone for staying with their parents for longer. Especially if they were building up savings to help them in life.

nineteen999 5y ago

I don't even understand how this happens. I was kicked out of home at 16. Neither of my parents would have allowed me to stay at home until my thirties. Then again, I'm a father now and I can't imagine ever asking my daughter to leave home. But I would definitely expect her to have a job and contribute to household expenses well before her 30's.

api 5y ago

This is just the Japanese Hikikomori phenomenon in an American form.

jart 5y ago

Well maybe they're smart enough to know that, in a world where most things have either been automated or offshored, the only purpose most jobs serve in the grand scheme of things is to increase the velocity of capital. If you had a choice between the fake purpose offered by an office job where you get to be a peon, versus the fake purpose offered by a video game where you get to be a hero: which would you choose?

dcist 5y ago
But a job provides you real money that gives you real options in life. You can't take someone out on a date with your video game points.
- throwaway306744 5y ago
  I get what you're saying, but with just "a job" these days you won't be taking that attractive person out on a date either. Real life's feedback loops and progression mechanics are slow and unreliable when compared to games.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- LunaSea 5y ago
  It also removes a lot of options due to the time investment and required location.

anotherman554 5y ago

I may be projecting here but your nephews, if they are like some of my relatives, may not be neurotypical (for example they may have Aspergers disorder). If this is the case their behavior may be better understood in that context that a social one.

ativzzz 5y ago
My friend's brother is like this. It's pretty obvious upon talking to him that he has some kind of atypical neurology but his parents completely refuse this, and thus keep him trapped in his little bubble without getting any help.

monkeybutton 5y ago

I want to put some blame on people's focus on university education here. Every guy I've met in this type of situation is someone that isn't stupid, but they don't excel in academia either. Their family treats them like crap because they didn't go to university or dropped after they got there. They become depressed because they compare themselves to their "smarter" peers who appear to have everything worked out are doing great in life. Constantly pushing someone towards university when it's maybe not the best idea for them, then calling them a loser when they bomb out just engenders learned helplessness in the individual. Then people why these individuals stop trying.

ckdarby 5y ago
This is the trap of social media and why many people would be healthier and happier if they were able to live & be present in the moment without their phone. Plenty of people will read this comment and think that is not them but if there is not a point in your day when your phone is not on you, out of sights and out of reach for at least an hour you're not as "present" as you think.

etempleton 5y ago

I see this a good bit. And it is hard to get into the psychology of the individuals. I would work any job I could get if I was unemployed. I have taken retail jobs when I was unemployed or we could use extra income. My wife has done the same. A few people I know come to mind that reminds me of your nephews and I simply cannot understand it. Right now there are hiring signs up in almost every business in my town. I would rather work (if I could) than take unemployment even if it would be a pay cut.

cassac 5y ago

They are just waiting for that UBI to kick in. Free ride till the end!

RGamma 5y ago

Maybe they're doomers and have accepted the end.