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I see this on the fringes of those within my circle of friends. I know one man in this age cohort who doesn't seem to have a job, just plays video games all the

I see this on the fringes of those within my circle of friends. I know one man in this age cohort who doesn't seem to have a job, just plays video games all the time, and I don't get it. But one thing I think about is what he has been exposed to: this is what he knows. I don't think this individual I'm speaking of was raised with anything differently. In this same light, as I believe the two concepts are directly related: another friend of mine basically refuses to date anymore because he thinks the sort of culture of Tinder dating is a waste of time that favors women disproportionately. I suspect all of this is primarily cultural first, and not related specifically to work, the economy, pricing of good or services like buying a home and starting a family, which would come second. That being said, if we were just talking about young single men, well, of course they're staying at home. It makes no economic sense to move out and get an apartment. The cost of living in major metros makes renting nearly equivalent to paying a mortgage. Except no one is building affordable homes.

MyHypatia 5y ago
I see this too. One thing that has struck me lately, is the similarity between the addictive nature of gambling and video games. Going to a casino once in a while or playing some video games with friends is fine. But the amount of time some people spend on video games really mimics a gambling addiction, except it's less frowned upon because they're mostly losing time instead of money. But if you consider the opportunity cost, they're losing a lot of money too.
- hindsightbias 5y ago
  Have been going to conferences in Vegas for 30+ years. For a long time it was just incredibly depressing walking through the floors and seeing all the elder generation playing slots at all hours. Quite the motivator to never stop working, IMO. Now that Vegas is more young-focused, it's all age groups on the slots. Then I think, multiply those giant floors by 1000X and that's the gaming population.
- supertrope 5y ago
  In American culture money and materialism is dominant. Labor, quality of life, and time are devalued. People complain that a plumber “didn’t do anything” and then billed $170. Or an ER physician didn’t do anything yet they still got a $$$$ bill. Expertise, attention, and simply showing up to get the job done doesn’t seem to have fundamental value in common culture. But if they received a prescription, or an MRI was used, or some parts were installed there’s more appreciation.
wayoutthere 5y ago
> another friend of mine basically refuses to date anymore because he thinks the sort of culture of Tinder dating is a waste of time that favors women disproportionately. Tinder is a waste of time for women too; if you’re at all attractive you get dozens of messages a day and half of them are scams. The best I’ve ever gotten out of Tinder has been mediocre, meaningless sex; it’s far too much work if you’re looking for anything more. You have to go do things you enjoy and be a more interesting person. If that’s just your daily life, you’ll meet people who enjoy the same things you do and you can potentially date them (or their friends). But yeah, I agree with you. Just because Tinder sucks doesn’t mean you shouldn’t date; just that you shouldn’t look to an app to find a partner.
- shrimp_emoji 5y ago
  >If that’s just your daily life, you’ll meet people who enjoy the same things you do and you can potentially date them (or their friends). I enjoy reading and occasionally posting comments on Hacker News. u up?
Taylor_OD 5y ago
I've got a buddy in a similar situation. We all came from somewhat similar backgrounds and all majored in the same, useless, thing. We lived together and while we all played a lot of video games one of the three never really moved on from that. He's still working at a low wage job behind a counter and playing video games a lot. I think it's less that he doesnt know different but more that he never got a break in the right direction. I stumbled into a career. Our other buddy stumbled into a career. He didn't. I'm not saying he never will but I can look back and point to a few key moments that led me to where I am today. Without those I'd probably be living in my parents house playing video games too.
- UnpossibleJim 5y ago
  Risk aversion and a lack of opportunity (luck) seem to have a large impact on this phenomenon, if you will.I know everyone is quick to jump on "helicopter parenting"from the 90's (?) on, but I think (from the limited speakers I've seen on the topic - which are few) really have made a generation of risk averse peoples. Add to that an economic downturn, where a lack of opportunity makes for less situations where luck might happen where you can take those risks... and here you are. Young men in basements getting a dopamine fix in a plasticine bubble with a virtual body.
- runawaybottle 5y ago
  It’s also a form of perfectionism. I deal with exactly what you are describing with a family member of mine. A part of his problem is that, I shit you not, I sincerely believe he thinks he is too good for a labor/service job, or community college, or coursera, or the gym, dating someone not perfect, etc. It didn’t go his way for so long, but the ego is still there. And what is the ego exactly if not an intense defense mechanism. They have lost all ability to slowly chip away at a problem. No, you probably won’t get an office job in the next 5 years. Maybe in the next 10. No, you won’t have enough money to move out the next 5 years, but maybe in 10. Nope, you aren’t get laid anytime soon. Few people can accept the timeline and the sheer effort it will take, and the sheer time. That’s the crux of the problem, that they are truly behind and cannot deal with the time investment required. Enough with the lies, and start from zero. The effort it takes to be just mediocre in this world is understated.
kypro 5y ago
We seem to live in an age of such abundance and freedom that it's now possible to live in all manner of ways which seems to exacerbate these extremes. In the past if you were a man and wanted to eat and have a home you had to work. We also relied far more on children to look after us in our old age than we do today. Today welfare and the affordability of essentials like food make it possible for people not to work and not worry about the implications of growing old without family. I agree it's cultural, but it's a cultural trend being fuelled by the abundance of modern day living. Whether that's good or bad, I don't know. I guess it's nice people can choose to play video games all day and not worry about working or having a family, but I worry about the impact this will have on our mental health. I also wonder what this means for economic inequality and the stability of society in general. I'm a big believer that people only care to preserve societies they have a stake in and if a large enough percentage of the population own nothing and offer no value it's very easy to see this causing a division. Should I as someone who works, pays tax, pays for his own home and pays for his own food be happy with someone who chooses not to work and have everything paid for them by people who work like me? And if you don't work and don't pay tax wouldn't you naturally want to see higher taxes and more government welfare?
- ajkdhcb2 5y ago
  Where is this socialist paradise that you speak of where you can have a home without working? There is nowhere like what you are saying. It is the exact opposite of what you are claiming. Affordability of essentials has become so much worse that many people can't afford to live a decent life with their own home even if they are working the jobs that they can actually acquire. These people aren't privileged because they "choose not to work and have everything paid for them by people who work like me", it is generally emotionally devastating to be stuck living with your family while your youth evaporates. Further, the money to do this is coming from the family (for those lucky enough to have a family wealthy enough). You're not paying for it with your taxes.
  - Mediterraneo10 5y ago
    > Where is this socialist paradise that you speak of where you can have a home without working? Finland, for example. "Home", of course means a simple flat in a housing block and there might be a waiting list, but housing every single one of its people regardless of employment has been something that the state has sought for a long time.
BeFlatXIII 5y ago
To be fair, your friend has the right idea about online dating: the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. It’s like playing the lottery: life-changing good if you win but a negative expectation value.
lumost 5y ago
This has a lot of parallels to "opt-out" syndrome in Japan. Given the concurrent rise of VanLife and FIRE cultural phenomena it's worth considering why many individuals in developed economies ideal life is to not work. I'd hypothesize that the rising costs both economic, and mental associated with what many consider a basic standard of living independently probably has alot to do with it. Why work when 60 hours per week leaves you just barely scraping by and exhausted? Why not be just barely scraping by and not exhausted.
- mkmk2 5y ago
  What are the FIRE cultural phenomena?
  - arnado 5y ago
    Financial Independence, Retire Early https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financial-independence-retire-early-fire.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financial-independence-...
  - iammisc 5y ago
    Fire is the opposite of not having a work ethic. Most firees are incredibly disciplined and have a bigger work ethic than most normal people.
    - lumost 5y ago
      The result of this work ethic is to remove one’s self from the workforce. It’s a reasonable question as to why a lifetimes ambition for these hard workers is to be able to do nothing.
      - iammisc 5y ago
        Most people who fire do the opposite of nothing though. For example Mr money mustache, one of the early fire bloggers, doesn't work in corporate but runs his own co working space. I'd say most firees are risk averse entrepreneurs.
beckman466 5y ago
> I suspect all of this is primarily cultural first, and not related specifically to work, the economy, pricing of good or services like buying a home and starting a family, which would come second. Hmmm I think you're wrong. It sounds like you've got survivorship bias, big time. Most people want to contribute, but the economic system fucks them and makes them dependent. Examples include: the intellectual property regime and monopolistic parasitism of the knowledge commons [1], neoliberal philanthrocapitalism [2] and the completely disgusting and neocolonial division of labour under global capitalism [3]. Can you really look at the Blackrock disaster [4] (Wall Street slumlordism), or the IRS papers or the Panama Papers and tell me that the system doesn't harm people? [1] https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/abolish-silicon-valley https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/abolish-silicon-valley [2] https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals... and https://anthempress.com/kicking-away-the-ladder-pb https://anthempress.com/kicking-away-the-ladder-pb [3] https://anti-imperialism.org/2012/09/18/understanding-and-changing-an-interview-with-zak-cope-author-of-divided-world-divided-class/ https://anti-imperialism.org/2012/09/18/understanding-and-ch... [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27448175 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27448175
- roenxi 5y ago
  > Can you really look at the Blackrock disaster [4] (Wall Street slumlordism) and tell me the system doesn't harm people? Yeah, someone could do that for any system. "A horrible thing happened somewhere" or even "this part of the market is totally screwed up" are facts about every plausible alternative. So though they may be facts about the current system, they don't tell us how to improve the situation. You can make an argument that the problem is systemic, but having one example of a problem doesn't do anything except score rhetorical points in a game where evidence and argument don't really matter.
- tjs8rj 5y ago
  Curious: what effect do you think culture has? The economic plays a big role, but there’s a tendency nowadays to call the root problem for everything economic and act like cultural effects are just “holidays and religion” or other marginal effects. The culture has changed dramatically since the 50s when these trends started. For the men, their role has gone from default “protector, provider, head of the home, in charge, theist, conservative, married young” to “equal bread winner, often oppressive, too often toxic, without innate greater purpose or role, etc”. Obviously these are broad generalizations, but we would probably agree that men get a worse wrap now than then (even if that came at the expense of others). Does that large cultural shift have a large effect? Are men lacking purpose now and how much of the current problem men face is because of that cultural shift? The economic is important, but the cultural factors are huge too
runawaybottle 5y ago
It’s sort of like when women entered the work force and built careers. They started to get married later and having kids later. Men are now reverting to the mean a little bit. This could be a natural normalization of a situation where men were exalted as industrious, and women were literally left at home. Both extremes are bad. One day we’ll just have two 30 year old stay-at-homes get married and not think twice about it. No expectations or judgement on ones job and aspirations, or gender specific duties. Just two genuine deadbeats. What’s so distasteful about it? Truly nothing, but yet, why doesn’t it feel right?
kogepathic 5y ago
> another friend of mine basically refuses to date anymore because he thinks the sort of culture of Tinder dating is a waste of time that favors women disproportionately. My female friends (I'm male) with online dating profiles have shown me their matches and conversations, and it's bleak. They all mostly have an average profile and still receive thousands of likes/hearts/swipes and messages, but the mean amount of effort from men messaging them is zero to none. Maybe your friend considers the situation of having fewer women on dating apps as somehow "favoring" their gender, but from what I've seen and heard, sorting through an inbox of unsolicited genital photos and copy pasta pickup artist lines is not something most women would say they enjoy spending their time doing. If instead he's referring to apps like Bumble where the woman has to make the first move, see above for why some apps choose to operate with that model.
- machello13 5y ago
  It's certainly believable that women don't enjoy dating apps, but I think it's difficult to make the case that it's equally hard for them (in terms of successfully getting a date) when they have thousands of matches and many men I know have none.
  - k-mcgrady 5y ago
    Thousands of matches isn’t a good thing. If you ever have the opportunity ask a female friend to show you the kind of messages they get on dating apps. They’re pretty appalling. It genuinely worries me that there are so many creeps out there. The men you know may not be getting many matches but at least the ones they get are more than likely from relatively normal people. If I had to sort through the garbage women do on dating apps I wouldn’t be on them.
    - lelanthran 5y ago
      > Thousands of matches isn’t a good thing. He didn't say it was, he said it was preferable to having no matches. I recall seeing the OkCupid stats once (okstats?). The numbers pretty much said that although women were getting most of the messages, they were all only responding to the same 10% of males, while most men were sending messages to almost all the women. You've pretty much got 80% of the women competing for the top 10% of the males.
at_a_remove 5y ago
Well, I cannot speak for Tinder, but you have probably seen the stats from the now-deleted OKCupid blogs. I worked in a dating service pre-Intarwebs and the dynamics are almost exactly the same, just lacking only the "instant" factor of the Internet, plus the rather expanded pool. As someone who entered people's "preferences" versus their "must-haves," certain trends emerged. To be politic about it, those trends did not favor men.
- mkmk2 5y ago
  As someone who's been exposed to the stats more than most of us (I assume, pre-web dating service), do you have any particular insights? Have you thought about what one could do to address this mismatch since? I was fortunate to find my s.o. on a language exchange site, but if I felt my best options were something from the Match Group... it looks grim
  - at_a_remove 5y ago
    No solutions, I am afraid, that do not involve large-scale genetic engineering. In the parlance of our times, dudes are generally "thirstier." On top of it, you can call it genetics or you can call it culture, but ... men make the approach, typically. (Okay, I am done with generally and typically and trends for now) This leads to guys spamming some entirely-too-fussy gals and the usual dynamics emerging. You've read the grim confessions of women who remorselessly admit to "dating for dinner." You've seen the baiting performed using the photo of a male model who can say simply the most awful and outrageous things. The Heightism user might have been banned on Twitter but others have emerged like the heads of hydras, reposting the casually cruel dismissal of men under six foot. It's only the basic thirstiness that drives men to even continue, and I suspect that a lot of young men opt out, because that's just step one. They're looking at their often-divorced parents and remembering who got the house, then wondering if the game is worth the candle. I suspect the men at the intersection of easily disheartened and generally aware have been most put off, leaving the field to the exuberant and the blessed. And remember, we are currently in a culture that doesn't seem to like men very much. Just for a giggle, go to Google, type "men are" and see what the autocomplete suggests, then do "women are." That has to add to more of the disenchantment.
samlevine 5y ago
Dating isn't fun. At least it isn't for me as a middle aged divorce. I get matches, I meet interesting people and go on dates and the process is just emotionally exhausting. I would rather put in time into my job, or my friends, or my hobbies. If I can meet someone who wants to be part of my life, fantastic. If not, I will live until I don't.
- mnouquet 5y ago
  > I would rather put in time into my job, or my friends, or my hobbies. one acronym: MGTOW.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  As a 26 year old finishing up a Comp Sci degree, I'm in a similar camp. I mean I'd rate myself as a 5-6 straight up average. I get matches and have gone on several dates. What I've noticed is most men don't do profiles right at all. They show themselves off in what they do, not what's attractive. Also nobody every acknowledges that selfies are bad. I mean these are just little tips I've learned honing a profile over the course of a couple years. But, thinking of dating like a resume, as well as making dates feel like interviews has made relationships nothing but a chore nowadays. It feels wholly like a business relationship without any contractual guarantees between the parties.
  - GloriousKoji 5y ago
    > They show themselves off in what they do, not what's attractive. Can you elaborate on that? I thought the general advice is to show off what you do because you hope to find someone who also enjoys the same.
    - BeFlatXIII 5y ago
      …but physical attractiveness is required to be curious if they have compatible interests and life goals in the first place. To continue the dating as job interview metaphor, it’s often the case that the skills you need on the job and the skills you need to get hired are often disjoint sets.
troupe 5y ago
> It makes no economic sense to move out and get an apartment. The cost of living in major metros makes renting nearly equivalent to paying a mortgage. That might account for them living at home, but not for not pursuing a job.
vmception 5y ago
> know one man in this age cohort who doesn't seem to have a job, just plays video games all the time, and I don't get it. this provides some context for why some women immediately balk when they see my playstation controller and vr headset on the west elm media cabinet "[oh god] are you ... a gamer ??" I feel like a lot of people can't differentiate between potential partners that own a console versus whatever gamer addict they're afraid of. thinking about it, that's a decent heuristic given how many gamers bring toxic ideas with them, even if they aren't neglecting other responsibilities for games
- krastanov 5y ago
  This anecdote definitely confuses me and I can not imagine such a first reaction happening in my social circle (yes, this is also just an anecdote ;)
  - vmception 5y ago
    yeah, I wish that first reaction didn't happen at all repeatedly nice that you don't experience or do that
fossuser 5y ago
Videogames provide fake achievement and an easy thing to do to occupy you - I think some people are more vulnerable to this kind of thing than others. For me, the fake achievement feels fake and I don't get much satisfaction out of it - but for others I think it mimics real achievement enough that they can pour hours into it. Online dating sucks for most men - if you're not in the top 2% of attractiveness for men it is a waste of your time (especially in skewed markets like the bay area), you're better off going places to meet people in person and working on your social skills that way (I think your friend is right).
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > fake achievement Nothing exposes that more than writing video games yourself, as well as having a job testing them. 10 print "Walter is Great!" 20 goto 10 There ya go. That's all video games are. The fake courtesy of software irks me, too.
  - mhh__ 5y ago
    Highly recommend the game Pathologic then. A Russian subversion of video games as a medium (the vast majority of players don't finish it despite it being very short)
- wearywanderer 5y ago
  I think some kinds of video games provide this more than others, at least for some definitions of achievement. If somebody spends their free time painting happy trees but never sells any paintings, I personally would not say achievements are fake. The painter sets their own objective and judge success by their own personal standards, but that doesn't make their achievements fake, right? And if they decide to depict things using lego instead of paint, is that fundamentally different? It's a different form of craft, but I don't consider building sculptures out of lego to be faker than doing the same from clay. Some video games are essentially the same as that. For instance, creative-mode minecraft seems to be arts and crafts as much as it is a game.
  - 5y ago

MyHypatia 5y ago

I see this too. One thing that has struck me lately, is the similarity between the addictive nature of gambling and video games. Going to a casino once in a while or playing some video games with friends is fine. But the amount of time some people spend on video games really mimics a gambling addiction, except it's less frowned upon because they're mostly losing time instead of money. But if you consider the opportunity cost, they're losing a lot of money too.

hindsightbias 5y ago
Have been going to conferences in Vegas for 30+ years. For a long time it was just incredibly depressing walking through the floors and seeing all the elder generation playing slots at all hours. Quite the motivator to never stop working, IMO. Now that Vegas is more young-focused, it's all age groups on the slots. Then I think, multiply those giant floors by 1000X and that's the gaming population.
supertrope 5y ago
In American culture money and materialism is dominant. Labor, quality of life, and time are devalued. People complain that a plumber “didn’t do anything” and then billed $170. Or an ER physician didn’t do anything yet they still got a $$$$ bill. Expertise, attention, and simply showing up to get the job done doesn’t seem to have fundamental value in common culture. But if they received a prescription, or an MRI was used, or some parts were installed there’s more appreciation.

wayoutthere 5y ago

> another friend of mine basically refuses to date anymore because he thinks the sort of culture of Tinder dating is a waste of time that favors women disproportionately. Tinder is a waste of time for women too; if you’re at all attractive you get dozens of messages a day and half of them are scams. The best I’ve ever gotten out of Tinder has been mediocre, meaningless sex; it’s far too much work if you’re looking for anything more. You have to go do things you enjoy and be a more interesting person. If that’s just your daily life, you’ll meet people who enjoy the same things you do and you can potentially date them (or their friends). But yeah, I agree with you. Just because Tinder sucks doesn’t mean you shouldn’t date; just that you shouldn’t look to an app to find a partner.

shrimp_emoji 5y ago
>If that’s just your daily life, you’ll meet people who enjoy the same things you do and you can potentially date them (or their friends). I enjoy reading and occasionally posting comments on Hacker News. u up?

Taylor_OD 5y ago

I've got a buddy in a similar situation. We all came from somewhat similar backgrounds and all majored in the same, useless, thing. We lived together and while we all played a lot of video games one of the three never really moved on from that. He's still working at a low wage job behind a counter and playing video games a lot. I think it's less that he doesnt know different but more that he never got a break in the right direction. I stumbled into a career. Our other buddy stumbled into a career. He didn't. I'm not saying he never will but I can look back and point to a few key moments that led me to where I am today. Without those I'd probably be living in my parents house playing video games too.

UnpossibleJim 5y ago
Risk aversion and a lack of opportunity (luck) seem to have a large impact on this phenomenon, if you will.I know everyone is quick to jump on "helicopter parenting"from the 90's (?) on, but I think (from the limited speakers I've seen on the topic - which are few) really have made a generation of risk averse peoples. Add to that an economic downturn, where a lack of opportunity makes for less situations where luck might happen where you can take those risks... and here you are. Young men in basements getting a dopamine fix in a plasticine bubble with a virtual body.
runawaybottle 5y ago
It’s also a form of perfectionism. I deal with exactly what you are describing with a family member of mine. A part of his problem is that, I shit you not, I sincerely believe he thinks he is too good for a labor/service job, or community college, or coursera, or the gym, dating someone not perfect, etc. It didn’t go his way for so long, but the ego is still there. And what is the ego exactly if not an intense defense mechanism. They have lost all ability to slowly chip away at a problem. No, you probably won’t get an office job in the next 5 years. Maybe in the next 10. No, you won’t have enough money to move out the next 5 years, but maybe in 10. Nope, you aren’t get laid anytime soon. Few people can accept the timeline and the sheer effort it will take, and the sheer time. That’s the crux of the problem, that they are truly behind and cannot deal with the time investment required. Enough with the lies, and start from zero. The effort it takes to be just mediocre in this world is understated.

kypro 5y ago

We seem to live in an age of such abundance and freedom that it's now possible to live in all manner of ways which seems to exacerbate these extremes. In the past if you were a man and wanted to eat and have a home you had to work. We also relied far more on children to look after us in our old age than we do today. Today welfare and the affordability of essentials like food make it possible for people not to work and not worry about the implications of growing old without family. I agree it's cultural, but it's a cultural trend being fuelled by the abundance of modern day living. Whether that's good or bad, I don't know. I guess it's nice people can choose to play video games all day and not worry about working or having a family, but I worry about the impact this will have on our mental health. I also wonder what this means for economic inequality and the stability of society in general. I'm a big believer that people only care to preserve societies they have a stake in and if a large enough percentage of the population own nothing and offer no value it's very easy to see this causing a division. Should I as someone who works, pays tax, pays for his own home and pays for his own food be happy with someone who chooses not to work and have everything paid for them by people who work like me? And if you don't work and don't pay tax wouldn't you naturally want to see higher taxes and more government welfare?

ajkdhcb2 5y ago
Where is this socialist paradise that you speak of where you can have a home without working? There is nowhere like what you are saying. It is the exact opposite of what you are claiming. Affordability of essentials has become so much worse that many people can't afford to live a decent life with their own home even if they are working the jobs that they can actually acquire. These people aren't privileged because they "choose not to work and have everything paid for them by people who work like me", it is generally emotionally devastating to be stuck living with your family while your youth evaporates. Further, the money to do this is coming from the family (for those lucky enough to have a family wealthy enough). You're not paying for it with your taxes.
- Mediterraneo10 5y ago
  > Where is this socialist paradise that you speak of where you can have a home without working? Finland, for example. "Home", of course means a simple flat in a housing block and there might be a waiting list, but housing every single one of its people regardless of employment has been something that the state has sought for a long time.

BeFlatXIII 5y ago

To be fair, your friend has the right idea about online dating: the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. It’s like playing the lottery: life-changing good if you win but a negative expectation value.

lumost 5y ago

This has a lot of parallels to "opt-out" syndrome in Japan. Given the concurrent rise of VanLife and FIRE cultural phenomena it's worth considering why many individuals in developed economies ideal life is to not work. I'd hypothesize that the rising costs both economic, and mental associated with what many consider a basic standard of living independently probably has alot to do with it. Why work when 60 hours per week leaves you just barely scraping by and exhausted? Why not be just barely scraping by and not exhausted.

mkmk2 5y ago
What are the FIRE cultural phenomena?
- arnado 5y ago
  Financial Independence, Retire Early https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financial-independence-retire-early-fire.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/financial-independence-...
- iammisc 5y ago
  Fire is the opposite of not having a work ethic. Most firees are incredibly disciplined and have a bigger work ethic than most normal people.
  - lumost 5y ago
    The result of this work ethic is to remove one’s self from the workforce. It’s a reasonable question as to why a lifetimes ambition for these hard workers is to be able to do nothing.
    - iammisc 5y ago
      Most people who fire do the opposite of nothing though. For example Mr money mustache, one of the early fire bloggers, doesn't work in corporate but runs his own co working space. I'd say most firees are risk averse entrepreneurs.

beckman466 5y ago

> I suspect all of this is primarily cultural first, and not related specifically to work, the economy, pricing of good or services like buying a home and starting a family, which would come second. Hmmm I think you're wrong. It sounds like you've got survivorship bias, big time. Most people want to contribute, but the economic system fucks them and makes them dependent. Examples include: the intellectual property regime and monopolistic parasitism of the knowledge commons [1], neoliberal philanthrocapitalism [2] and the completely disgusting and neocolonial division of labour under global capitalism [3]. Can you really look at the Blackrock disaster [4] (Wall Street slumlordism), or the IRS papers or the Panama Papers and tell me that the system doesn't harm people? [1] https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/abolish-silicon-valley https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/abolish-silicon-valley [2] https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals... and https://anthempress.com/kicking-away-the-ladder-pb https://anthempress.com/kicking-away-the-ladder-pb [3] https://anti-imperialism.org/2012/09/18/understanding-and-changing-an-interview-with-zak-cope-author-of-divided-world-divided-class/ https://anti-imperialism.org/2012/09/18/understanding-and-ch... [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27448175 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27448175

roenxi 5y ago
> Can you really look at the Blackrock disaster [4] (Wall Street slumlordism) and tell me the system doesn't harm people? Yeah, someone could do that for any system. "A horrible thing happened somewhere" or even "this part of the market is totally screwed up" are facts about every plausible alternative. So though they may be facts about the current system, they don't tell us how to improve the situation. You can make an argument that the problem is systemic, but having one example of a problem doesn't do anything except score rhetorical points in a game where evidence and argument don't really matter.
tjs8rj 5y ago
Curious: what effect do you think culture has? The economic plays a big role, but there’s a tendency nowadays to call the root problem for everything economic and act like cultural effects are just “holidays and religion” or other marginal effects. The culture has changed dramatically since the 50s when these trends started. For the men, their role has gone from default “protector, provider, head of the home, in charge, theist, conservative, married young” to “equal bread winner, often oppressive, too often toxic, without innate greater purpose or role, etc”. Obviously these are broad generalizations, but we would probably agree that men get a worse wrap now than then (even if that came at the expense of others). Does that large cultural shift have a large effect? Are men lacking purpose now and how much of the current problem men face is because of that cultural shift? The economic is important, but the cultural factors are huge too

runawaybottle 5y ago

It’s sort of like when women entered the work force and built careers. They started to get married later and having kids later. Men are now reverting to the mean a little bit. This could be a natural normalization of a situation where men were exalted as industrious, and women were literally left at home. Both extremes are bad. One day we’ll just have two 30 year old stay-at-homes get married and not think twice about it. No expectations or judgement on ones job and aspirations, or gender specific duties. Just two genuine deadbeats. What’s so distasteful about it? Truly nothing, but yet, why doesn’t it feel right?

kogepathic 5y ago

> another friend of mine basically refuses to date anymore because he thinks the sort of culture of Tinder dating is a waste of time that favors women disproportionately. My female friends (I'm male) with online dating profiles have shown me their matches and conversations, and it's bleak. They all mostly have an average profile and still receive thousands of likes/hearts/swipes and messages, but the mean amount of effort from men messaging them is zero to none. Maybe your friend considers the situation of having fewer women on dating apps as somehow "favoring" their gender, but from what I've seen and heard, sorting through an inbox of unsolicited genital photos and copy pasta pickup artist lines is not something most women would say they enjoy spending their time doing. If instead he's referring to apps like Bumble where the woman has to make the first move, see above for why some apps choose to operate with that model.

machello13 5y ago
It's certainly believable that women don't enjoy dating apps, but I think it's difficult to make the case that it's equally hard for them (in terms of successfully getting a date) when they have thousands of matches and many men I know have none.
- k-mcgrady 5y ago
  Thousands of matches isn’t a good thing. If you ever have the opportunity ask a female friend to show you the kind of messages they get on dating apps. They’re pretty appalling. It genuinely worries me that there are so many creeps out there. The men you know may not be getting many matches but at least the ones they get are more than likely from relatively normal people. If I had to sort through the garbage women do on dating apps I wouldn’t be on them.
  - lelanthran 5y ago
    > Thousands of matches isn’t a good thing. He didn't say it was, he said it was preferable to having no matches. I recall seeing the OkCupid stats once (okstats?). The numbers pretty much said that although women were getting most of the messages, they were all only responding to the same 10% of males, while most men were sending messages to almost all the women. You've pretty much got 80% of the women competing for the top 10% of the males.

at_a_remove 5y ago

Well, I cannot speak for Tinder, but you have probably seen the stats from the now-deleted OKCupid blogs. I worked in a dating service pre-Intarwebs and the dynamics are almost exactly the same, just lacking only the "instant" factor of the Internet, plus the rather expanded pool. As someone who entered people's "preferences" versus their "must-haves," certain trends emerged. To be politic about it, those trends did not favor men.

mkmk2 5y ago
As someone who's been exposed to the stats more than most of us (I assume, pre-web dating service), do you have any particular insights? Have you thought about what one could do to address this mismatch since? I was fortunate to find my s.o. on a language exchange site, but if I felt my best options were something from the Match Group... it looks grim
- at_a_remove 5y ago
  No solutions, I am afraid, that do not involve large-scale genetic engineering. In the parlance of our times, dudes are generally "thirstier." On top of it, you can call it genetics or you can call it culture, but ... men make the approach, typically. (Okay, I am done with generally and typically and trends for now) This leads to guys spamming some entirely-too-fussy gals and the usual dynamics emerging. You've read the grim confessions of women who remorselessly admit to "dating for dinner." You've seen the baiting performed using the photo of a male model who can say simply the most awful and outrageous things. The Heightism user might have been banned on Twitter but others have emerged like the heads of hydras, reposting the casually cruel dismissal of men under six foot. It's only the basic thirstiness that drives men to even continue, and I suspect that a lot of young men opt out, because that's just step one. They're looking at their often-divorced parents and remembering who got the house, then wondering if the game is worth the candle. I suspect the men at the intersection of easily disheartened and generally aware have been most put off, leaving the field to the exuberant and the blessed. And remember, we are currently in a culture that doesn't seem to like men very much. Just for a giggle, go to Google, type "men are" and see what the autocomplete suggests, then do "women are." That has to add to more of the disenchantment.

samlevine 5y ago

Dating isn't fun. At least it isn't for me as a middle aged divorce. I get matches, I meet interesting people and go on dates and the process is just emotionally exhausting. I would rather put in time into my job, or my friends, or my hobbies. If I can meet someone who wants to be part of my life, fantastic. If not, I will live until I don't.

mnouquet 5y ago
> I would rather put in time into my job, or my friends, or my hobbies. one acronym: MGTOW.
MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
As a 26 year old finishing up a Comp Sci degree, I'm in a similar camp. I mean I'd rate myself as a 5-6 straight up average. I get matches and have gone on several dates. What I've noticed is most men don't do profiles right at all. They show themselves off in what they do, not what's attractive. Also nobody every acknowledges that selfies are bad. I mean these are just little tips I've learned honing a profile over the course of a couple years. But, thinking of dating like a resume, as well as making dates feel like interviews has made relationships nothing but a chore nowadays. It feels wholly like a business relationship without any contractual guarantees between the parties.
- GloriousKoji 5y ago
  > They show themselves off in what they do, not what's attractive. Can you elaborate on that? I thought the general advice is to show off what you do because you hope to find someone who also enjoys the same.
  - BeFlatXIII 5y ago
    …but physical attractiveness is required to be curious if they have compatible interests and life goals in the first place. To continue the dating as job interview metaphor, it’s often the case that the skills you need on the job and the skills you need to get hired are often disjoint sets.

troupe 5y ago

> It makes no economic sense to move out and get an apartment. The cost of living in major metros makes renting nearly equivalent to paying a mortgage. That might account for them living at home, but not for not pursuing a job.

vmception 5y ago

> know one man in this age cohort who doesn't seem to have a job, just plays video games all the time, and I don't get it. this provides some context for why some women immediately balk when they see my playstation controller and vr headset on the west elm media cabinet "[oh god] are you ... a gamer ??" I feel like a lot of people can't differentiate between potential partners that own a console versus whatever gamer addict they're afraid of. thinking about it, that's a decent heuristic given how many gamers bring toxic ideas with them, even if they aren't neglecting other responsibilities for games

krastanov 5y ago
This anecdote definitely confuses me and I can not imagine such a first reaction happening in my social circle (yes, this is also just an anecdote ;)
- vmception 5y ago
  yeah, I wish that first reaction didn't happen at all repeatedly nice that you don't experience or do that

fossuser 5y ago

Videogames provide fake achievement and an easy thing to do to occupy you - I think some people are more vulnerable to this kind of thing than others. For me, the fake achievement feels fake and I don't get much satisfaction out of it - but for others I think it mimics real achievement enough that they can pour hours into it. Online dating sucks for most men - if you're not in the top 2% of attractiveness for men it is a waste of your time (especially in skewed markets like the bay area), you're better off going places to meet people in person and working on your social skills that way (I think your friend is right).

WalterBright 5y ago
> fake achievement Nothing exposes that more than writing video games yourself, as well as having a job testing them. 10 print "Walter is Great!" 20 goto 10 There ya go. That's all video games are. The fake courtesy of software irks me, too.
- mhh__ 5y ago
  Highly recommend the game Pathologic then. A Russian subversion of video games as a medium (the vast majority of players don't finish it despite it being very short)
wearywanderer 5y ago
I think some kinds of video games provide this more than others, at least for some definitions of achievement. If somebody spends their free time painting happy trees but never sells any paintings, I personally would not say achievements are fake. The painter sets their own objective and judge success by their own personal standards, but that doesn't make their achievements fake, right? And if they decide to depict things using lego instead of paint, is that fundamentally different? It's a different form of craft, but I don't consider building sculptures out of lego to be faker than doing the same from clay. Some video games are essentially the same as that. For instance, creative-mode minecraft seems to be arts and crafts as much as it is a game.
- 5y ago