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Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?
Hi HN. Like many of you I am working remotely due to COVID.
I want to continue working remotely, but my job wants me in the office next month.
How would you negotiate this with your employer?
Have any of you already had this conversation? How did it go?
- twobitshifter 5y agoI would like to know as well. Depending on the size of the company it may be easier to get special treatment. We’ve heard from top-down that we need to be back in the office and there’s been no special treatment given other than some allusions to a hybrid workweek compromise. The only way I think it would be possible at a large company would be to engage in some sort of wfh soft-strike collectively. With enough employees, leadership will listen. I think that if you don’t organize you’ll have to go along with the rest of the company. This is of course something dangerous to even discuss if you value your job. On an individual level, JP Morgan will not let even their top employees wfh just because it will weaken their stance.
- codingdave 5y ago> This is of course something dangerous to even discuss if you value your job. If you cannot even talk about your work environment, that must be quite the dystopian workplace. Most decent places I've worked, that is one of the most common topics when talking to your boss. Maybe those talks don't go anywhere, but if it is a taboo topic, it might be better to work elsewhere.
- daniellarusso 5y agoI think parent meant coordinating a labor strike, as far as dangerous topics of work discussion.
- o-__-o 5y agoIt’s almost like JP Morgan has a vested interest in the success of commercial real estate. HMMMMMMM
- hparadiz 5y agoSales and finance attracts extroverts. They are likely in favor of returning to the office like all the extroverts at my work currently are. They did company lunch today in person. All vaxed though.
- bidirectional 5y agoNo, it's just front office finance (particularly IBD and S&T) is more effective in person in ways that software development isn't. And if the front office guys need to come in, then so do the developers.
- dontwannabe 5y agoThanks for making JP Morgan's stance on WFH. I am thinking of switching jobs and this is helpful information.
- tsukikage 5y agoDo bear in mind that JPM is enormous - 250k people isn't a size you associate with a company, it's a small country! - and although the rhetoric from the top is that everyone should be in the office because teamwork synergy efficiency managementspeak, individual departments may have more flexibility than this; although certainly fully remote is a very very unlikely option to say the least, arrangements where one works from home some of the time on a regular basis were possible even before covid.
- dontwannabe 5y ago> although the rhetoric from the top is that everyone should be in the office... In a software org, employees who don't code are always against Work From Home. Especially Middle Managers. If the top management is not pro remote work, there is less hope.
- IThoughtYouGNU 5y agoThreaten to leave and leave if they force the issue.
- codegeek 5y agoYou can negotiate if you have leverage. Are you really good at what you do ? Are you able to show that wfh doesn't impact your performance and you are doing same or even better since wfh ? Are you trustworthy who knows how to get shit done and doesn't need to be supervised all the time ? If yes to most of these, you could talk to management and see what's possible. Otherwise, tough.
- WrtCdEvrydy 5y ago"Since we're not requiring vaccinations, will the company be paying a 5 million dollar life insurance policy for my family as beneficiaries? I'm fine dying but I like to put a price on my own life" This is what I would say if I worked at a place which actually wanted people to come back to the office.
- paiute 5y agoSo you're not vaccinated?
- WrtCdEvrydy 5y agoI am, but the organization isn't requiring it, so we can't guarantee herd immunity. Edit: It's a moot point because the management are the ones driving the "safety above all, stay in your houses" strategy.
- mynameishere 5y agoOn the contrary, OSHA all but nixed such requirements: If you require your employees to be vaccinated as a condition of employment (i.e., for work-related reasons), then any adverse reaction to the COVID-19 vaccine is work-related. https://www.natlawreview.com/article/osha-s-new-guidance-recordability-covid-19-vaccine-reactions https://www.natlawreview.com/article/osha-s-new-guidance-rec...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- chrisseaton 5y ago> will the company be paying a 5 million dollar life insurance policy for my family as beneficiaries? Isn't life insurance a standard part of employment benefits? So, yes, they will be.
- WrtCdEvrydy 5y agoUsually, but that's usually a 2x current yearly pay rate and it's usually capped at 100k. A 5 million dollar life insurance is a "key person" policy... if it's some important to the business that I be on site during a health emergency, they can keep half of the max 10 million and my family can get the rest.
- x0x0 5y agoYou should make a decision tree. eg is hybrid something you would be willing to do? Your boss? Your employer? You're pretty junior, however, so I'm not sure you really have a strong position if you can't come to an agreement. The best negotiating tactic is a job offer, though you don't need to threaten. just be prepared for them to say ok.
- tsukikage 5y agoI will be starting that conversation with my boss later this week. At the end of the day, I think the key thing is you need to be fully prepared to move on if negotiations fail and the current job doesn't deliver what you are after. For myself, I have enough buffer and leads that I am confident I can get somewhere fully remote or at least closer to home before the savings get uncomfortably low, and so that's my red line now - one way or another, I'm not doing the two-hour commute again, it's simply not worth it; I'd rather take a pay cut to keep the life I've become used to over lockdown. YMMV, but IMO if you're not prepared to move on and your boss senses this, the negotiation will end right there.
- throw14082020 5y agoAbsolutely, people talk about mindset, and this is it. You should be prepared to walk away from a bad deal: going back into the office. However, don't reveal things like "youre willing to compromise on salary to work from home". I've made a lot of concessions when I really want something, and thinking back, I didn't need to in many cases. In fact, ask for a raise in the same conversation. Be mentally prepared to ask for more, because you have done a lot more this year working from home than you have working in the office.
- quickthrower2 5y agoNever offer to be paid less for X. Even a shorter work week. Let them say you get paid less first (they may not) and then counter. I’m mainly writing this comment for me later on :-) It’s simply the case not everyone wants to screw you down on cost. Don’t assume they will. If you have every purchased a Mac when a pc is cheaper (or similar buying the brand when generic is cheaper) or paid more for the pizza from the restaurant you love, you’ll know what I mean. In fact if the pizza place says “sorry delivery only due to COVID so pizzas are half price” I’d think “huh... what’s wrong with their pizza?”
- tsukikage 5y agoI mean, to be clear, I'm not intending to explicitly offer to be paid less, but the reality is that jobs in my town pay rather less than jobs in the capital, and so if my fallback position is to quit my job in the capital for a job in the science park across the road, I need to privately plan for a pay cut.
- youeseh 5y agoGood answers in your favor for following would help: 1. Are you / your team demonstrably as / more productive working remotely, compared to going into the office? 2. Does your company have a difficult time finding / retaining talent due to their policy against WFH?
- Ankintol 5y agoI've watched several people go through this conversation after a company made this demand. For this to succeed it seems that you need to be indispensable, or be part of an organized group that is indispensable, to the highest person in your management chain who is demanding a return to the office (probably the CEO). If that person isn't aware you're indispensable, you will have to try to convince them. Best of luck.
- tedivm 5y agoThere are a ton of companies hiring right now that are allowing ongoing remote work. If your company won't let you find one that will.
- GiorgioG 5y agoMy company went from freezing remote hiring 2 years prior to COVID 19 (because they spent tens of millions on a new HQ) to "Hey if you want to work remote, do what's best for you - obviously we've proven it can work." Companies may become more flexible - especially if your line of work is in demand. Just have a conversation with your manager "It's important to me that I can work remotely. What can you do?" If he/she says "Nothing, you have to come into the office" find another job.
- iovrthoughtthis 5y ago1. the developer market is super hot right now, there are lots of jobs. 2. you seem a capable developer (i checked your personal website). i would approach the relevant contact at the company and ask if you are needed at the office 100% or if there is room for another arrangement, perhaps coming in for key meetings or a few times a month. if not, i would highly recommend looking for a job that supports you working as you’d like to work. if you can, take some holiday to look for and apply to job openings that allow remote work. you are working in one of the best paid professions, there should be little need for you to stay and work somewhere that doesn’t support you working the best way for you. trust your gut. happy to help if i can.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- camhenlin 5y agoIt seems like nearly all tech companies these days are moving to fully remote hiring. Tell your manager that you’re staying remote indefinitely or you’ll be beginning the search for a new job. You’ve already had the last year to prove how productive of a remote worker you are. Bonus for you: tech industry salaries are on a massive upswing at the moment - if you do get a shiny new remote job, chances are you’ll also be able to grab a pretty sweet raise as well.
- andorxor 5y agoNot my experience at all. I've been having trouble finding remote jobs, much less remote jobs offering anything in the same universe as the 20 year Silicon Valley career I left behind.
- perlgeek 5y agoKey to a negotiation is understanding what the other party wants (and what you want, of course). WHY do they want you to work on premise? Wanting your presence is just a means to an end. There could be many reasons, like: * They think it's easier to control how much somebody works if it's on premise * it might be easier to manage * it might be inertia * they think it's more efficient * somebody is trying to exert control, or demonstrate to a higher-up that they can do so ... and so on. You should first try to understand where they are coming from, and then you can try to argue your case, framing it in a way that they can get most of their underlying motivation. Also, it helps to know in advance what you are willing to give up and what not (are you willing to walk away if you don't reach an agreement? what compromises would be acceptable to you?)
- CardenB 5y agoI think this is a significant part of the problem that has prompted the question. It would be really helpful to have some insight into what is driving the move back to the office from people on HN.
- heavyset_go 5y ago> It would be really helpful to have some insight into what is driving the move back to the office from people on HN. I've posted about one of the reasons that some employers are itching to get their employers back in the office here[1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27011439 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27011439
- Tempest1981 5y agoHR proudly proclaims, "we work best when we're all together"
- pbhjpbhj 5y agoSo they agree we should wfh? I'm kinda being facetious, but everyone is a couple of clicks away at the moment; whilst when we were in the office and video chat wasn't normalised then it would be a case of 'walk for a few minutes, find a meeting room (due to open plan offices) then chat and then a couple more minutes walking back to your own desk space' for lots of daily interactions. I prefer the later (in a large part for the exercise, change of scenery, chance for incidental meeting of people in the corridors, etc.), but the former seems like we're more together in some ways. I guess if anyone is wfh then we're "closer" if everyone is wfh (or behaving as if they were).
- rizpanjwani 5y agoPlaying devil's advocate: as a business/employer why would I continue to pay you your current first-world salary rather than find someone top-notch for 1/3 your salary in India, or any other English speaking country with a lower cost of living?
- adamnemecek 5y agoTime zone differences are bad.
- gnulinux 5y agoThere are software engs in Mexico etc.
- LAC-Tech 5y agoI'm a remote contractor, and my policy is to essentially work my clients time zone. Right now I'm 11am-7pm (I'm in NZ, they're mostly in Sydney, Australia). For a while my team was all in Malaysia, so I did 2pm-10pm. Hell for the right contract I'd work as far east as texas, mon-fri 10am-6pm for them, tues-sat 5am-1pm for me. No one asks me to do this, but it just makes life easier, and clients like knowing that I'm working normal hours and will pick up the phone.
- cowanon22 5y agoThere are high quality workers everywhere in the world, but they are also expensive. You generally get what you pay for - the skilled developers in others countries are also smart enough to find a better deal if they are underpaid. The 1/3 price workers are not at the same level, and quite frankly often overpaid compared to their relative productivity.
- vb6sp6 5y agoI work for a very small company so when they start talking about coming back I give them some form of "not gonna happen from me" in a joking and light-hearted manner. I've done this specifically to "anchor" my position. I've heard that others are saying "2-3 days at home" which seems foolish since that will be instantly whittled down to 2 days, and then fridays only, and then fridays only unless there is a big project (and there will always be a big project). If we ever get to a serious "why aren't you coming back" then we can discuss the reasons: 1. I dont like the commute and you dont like it when i am late 2. I'm working more hours since I'm not taking an hour lunch each day. I'm also not watching the clock trying to beat the evening rush. (you should have the numbers to back this up) 3. "butts in seats" is dumb. You aren't dumb and I'm not done. We accomplished everything we set out to do in the last year with 0 butts in seat 4. The office has a ton of non-work related distractions. While I do enjoy the social aspects, I have a distraction free environment here which has allowed me to focus on some larger tasks such as completing project x and y. 5. Customers are never at our site. The only visitors we have are paper salesmen and dental hygienists (see #4) and i am tired of telling them, politely, to go fuck themselves Unfortunately if they make employment conditional on in office you have to be willing to walk away. They might counter but you should be ready to leave if it gets to this point. Good Luck
- NKosmatos 5y agoAll these months that you’ve been working remotely has your efficiency/amount of work/evaluation remained the same? If yes then you can use this as a valid and measurable point for your discussion with your manager. Try to collect actual data (emails, messages, deadlines, quality...) clearly showing that while you were WFH. As others have suggested, have a plan B during the discussion/negotiations. Can you offer a few days every month? Are you willing to loose any benefits or raises for a couple of years? What about equipment? You have to give something to the “stubborn” employers that don’t see the benefits of remote working, especially for specific jobs that can be performed from a computer anywhere on earth :-) Hope you succeed!
- o-__-o 5y ago>How would you negotiate this with your employer? Quit.
- gwbas1c 5y agoI transitioned to remote a few years ago when I moved. It helped that my employer really liked me, and considered me indispensable. In my case, I started the conversation very early, almost a year in advance. "I just married someone who might make me move." Even though we didn't dwell on the discussion, the fact that I brought it up regularly made sure that it wasn't a surprise when I announced that, "I am moving and will need to work remotely." If you've already discussed how much you like working remotely with your manager, then it shouldn't come as a surprise that you're asking to remain remote. In your case, maybe consider stating that you will be in the office day a week? Then, when "life happens," just don't show up for 2-3 weeks and see what happens. When I moved, my employer set up an office for me with a group that I was physically close to. I showed up once a week, then due to a bad winter, I just didn't go in for 6 weeks. No one noticed. (Heck, no one noticed when I was there.) Then, the office situation changed and I asked to be remote full time. If you get a firm "no," then everything depends on how much leverage you have. If there is some major project due in the near future, point out that the job market is very healthy for remote employees and imply that you might quit without finishing your project. See if you can get some kind of severance package or retention bonus if you stay through the project as a remote employee. Otherwise, just quit when you have a new job.
- milenafagandini 5y agoIMO employers have an irrational fear that people that work from home don't work at all and say its "the office culture" and being a team. If their opinion is already set on this, try negotiating half the week at the office and the other half from home. So both of you get the best of both worlds.
- jon-wood 5y agoI've done this before, and I'd argue its more the worst of both worlds. With people who are kind of but not really remote the company never actually adjusts in the ways needed to properly accommodate it - you just end up with people saving things up for "when you're in the office", with connotations that if you'd just be like everyone else that wouldn't be needed. If you're going to work remotely, work somewhere that's already set up to handle that and where everyone gets it, otherwise you're doomed to a career of being given the annoying jobs that don't require much collaboration because people don't understand how to make that work if you can't sit round a table.
- the_gipsy 5y agoI'm about to move out before vaccination levels are high enough to enforce returning to the office. I have enough savings-cushion, I'd collect unemployment, and there are plenty of remote offers. I'm very stubborn on it, because to me it's very easy. Home vs Office is a very hot and polarized topic. It's easy enough to please both type of workers, at least in IT. If C-level management is incapable of compromising on this, then that's not my problem, fortunately.
- throwawayboise 5y agoYou normally can't collect unemployment if you quit.
- snow_mac 5y agoYou can if they fire you though...
- bigwavedave 5y ago> You can if they fire you though... As far as I know, that's if you're fired without cause. Who do you think the state contacts to find out why you were let go? Be careful going down that route.
- snow_mac 5y ago> State law determines whether a fired employee can collect unemployment. Generally speaking, an employee who is fired for serious misconduct is ineligible for benefits, either entirely or for a certain period of time (often called a "disqualification period"). But the definition of misconduct varies from state to state. In many states, an employee's misconduct has to be pretty bad to render the employee ineligible for unemployment benefits. An employee who is fired for being a poor fit for the job, lacking the necessary skills for the position, or failing to perform up to expected standards will likely be able to collect unemployment. But an employee who acts intentionally or recklessly against the employer's interests will likely be ineligible for unemployment benefits. Other states take a harder line, finding that employees who are fired for violating a workplace policy or rule won't be eligible for unemployment benefits, at least for a period of time. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/unemployment-benefits-when-fired-32449.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/unemployment-benefit... Like anything, it depends
- randomopining 5y agoHere's what I'm thinking. 1. Have value - the market is hot, you have 1-2 years+ at your job and know the codebase. Replacing you would cost them a good amount, they'd have to train a new person, etc. 2. Have respect - they know you get the job done and stick to your word. 3. Truly don't give a f*k - have savings and know that you could get another job in a few months if you needed to. If you have those, I seriously don't know how you can fail. Unless it's like a 300k+/year hedge fund job where they want everybody there for the culture etc.
- swader999 5y agoMake yourself indispensable. Crank out quality code at a rate above your pay level. Or offer to work on call hours that no one else wants to that really don't cost you much to commit to.
- pgt 5y agoYou can't negotiate without options. You have to be willing to walk away, and the only way to do that is to gather options.
- rconti 5y agoMy 5k+ person tech employer has basically said anyone who wants to work remote will be able to. The argument seems to be that it won't be possible to competitively hire/retain if remote is not an option.
- xtracto 5y ago> The argument seems to be that it won't be possible to competitively hire/retain if remote is not an option. This is the key. Companies that don't understand this soon will understand it later.
- woutr_be 5y agoThe 100K+ person bank that I work at also offered new flexible working arrangements. Pretty much comes down to your team and manager, but I ended up with a full-time work from home position. Others do a few days in office, then the rest WFH. I think they acknowledged that most people were more happier when working from home, and that productivity didn't go down over the last year. But then I also read a news article about how my company was giving up 3 floors in their Asia HQ, which ended up being close to US$ 1 million a month. So money is definitely involved as well.
- abfan1127 5y agoI've been having this conversation for the last 9 months with my employer. I set the tone early that I: 1. routinely and mostly work with people in other states. 2. continue to perform as good if not better at home. 3. my home-office setup is as good if not better than in-office. I let him know I have zero interest in returning to commuting 30-40 minutes each way to call another state. I'd start the conversation as soon as possible. highlight the benefits for the company. highlight that you've honored his/her trust and represented the team well.
- dbenny 5y agoCTO at Markforged here. If you can't work it out with your employer hit us up. We're hiring remote software engineers. We'll ship you a printer so you can dev from home. Good luck! Like a lot of other commenters have posted - you have options.
- bityard 5y agoA printer?
- amrx431 5y agoHey dbenny, Just browsed the careers page and I saw few positions where I could be a good fit. Are there TZ restrictions for the remote positions? Thanks.
- sgtnoodle 5y agoWe have a bunch of onyx printers at work and the parts are so pretty! The mechanical engineers probably go through $1k of filament a week at least. I've been iterating on my hobby printer for a few years now, and like to compare my prints to the onyx prints for inspiration. I think you guys cheat a little bit since it's such a matte finish; it hides a lot of blemishes. :-) The one time I printed a part myself on an onyx, I noticed that the slicer didn't print "thin" walls and instead left gaps in the part, though. Is that a quirk of the slicer, or did I probably just have a setting wrong?
- pfp 5y agoDon't negotiate. Dictate. I'm not joking either. I tried negotiating this (pre-covid), only to get a "final offer" of a measly couple of remote days etc. Being on the spectrum, I took their word at face value, found another job that does 100% remote, and put in my resignation. Surprisingly that "absolutely final" position wasn't that final anymore, and they'd've rather had me remote than not at all. Had the new job not been a lot better substance-wise, the whole exercise would have been total waste of time. Of course you'll want to dictate from a position where you can follow your ultimatum if need be. The nearing end of Covid is where people like us can - indeed must - make a stand against the returning suffocating madness of boring commutes, noisy open plan offices, incessant context switches; against sacrificing one's creativity, flow and personal space to placate the emotional instincts and biases of the excessively social who rarely do the heavy lifting in our sector. Stay determined and keep up the good work.
- quickthrower2 5y agoCompanies are well accustomed to bullshitting employees, so many people do fall for their lies. Or they may have not been lying but just reacting to circumstances. They can’t give everyone everything needed to make everyone stay if the threaten to leave but they can do it for the one who does actually threaten to leave. As a team lead I don’t believe in convincing someone to stay if they took an offer. Their heart and soul has left the building!
- heavyset_go 5y ago> boring commutes They're not just boring, they're dangerous and expensive, especially if you're commuting by car. Commutes are responsible for a 9.91% drop in hourly wages[1]. Using the media commute time, a commuter might spend close to 10 days per year just commuting, and in some cases it's closer to two full weeks[1]: > In the area with the longest average commute (New York-Newark-Jersey City), commuters are spending an average of 13 days, 2 hours, and 26 minutes driving to and from work. That means that 14 vacation days a year are barely covering the time it takes to get to work every day. So in addition to dropping the average wage from $34.71 per hour to $30.15 per hour, in order to get 14 days of hanging with their family on a beach, New York commuters must be willing to spend nearly as much time sitting in a car. [1] https://go.frontier.com/business/commute-calculator https://go.frontier.com/business/commute-calculator
- Ocerge 5y agoDon't think you need to negotiate at all. I have no plans to work remotely when my office reopens (I hate it, it's bad for my mental health), but without even looking for _any_ job, I get 3-5 emails a day about remote gigs all over the US just by being on LinkedIn and having a software dev job. If they say no, just leave, somebody will take you.
- ineptech 5y agoI manage people and have some advice. Start with, "I'd like to be converted to full remote, what's the process for that?" The answer is probably "I don't know but I don't think it would fly." Insist that your manager ask up the chain for an official answer. If the answer is "nope", next say: "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?" This is two-pronged: a) it introduces private healthcare decisions, a legally fraught topic they do not want to deal with. Is it legal to fire someone for refusing to return to the office despite health concerns? Probably, but no one knows for sure and your employer does not want to be the test case. (If they ask, "what health concerns?" remind them that's private. Don't invent a fictitious medically-fragile aunt.) b) It may force them to confront the fact that they will lose people over this. They very likely think of wfh as a perk, something they can decide by fiat without consequence. If no one quits over it, that's exactly what it will be. If they stick to their guns, it's time to look for another job I suppose. If they have some explanation for why wfh is bad ("productivity is down, look at this graph", or "the value of hallway conversations" or whatever) I wouldn't bother arguing unless it's a small enough company that you can argue with the person who made the decision.
- mLuby 5y agoAlso consider asking for a small pay increase when you start the remote work conversation. Justification is the money the company will save on office space and equipment and utilities and snacks when you're working from home. And then graciously "settle" for maintaining your current wage, having forestalled any talk of lower/location-based pay for remote workers.
- jonathanfoster 5y ago@ineptech knows what he's talking about. Follow this advice. Here are some more ideas to consider. Source: 18+ years of experience as an engineer, manager, and director. The theme is make your manager's life easy and he/she will do whatever they can to help you out. Depending upon the size of your company, your manager may have more or less discretion with WFH. Whatever you do, don't put him/her into a corner with an all or nothing demand. Be clear with what you want, but be willing to negotiate how it happens. If you've consistently delivered in the past, you have a tremendous amount of leverage. Believe me, the last thing a manager will want to do is lose one of his/her top engineers especially given this job market. Make sure they know you have options and you're willing to exercise them, but you really want to stay put. Be patient, but hold a hard line. Most managers are inundated with bureaucracy which means almost nothing moves fast. Don't be surprised if your request gets pushed down the stack due to the latest fire that needs attention. Keep offering up options that make their life easier. I know, I know, this is about you not them, but trust me on this one. Make whatever solution you want easy for them. HR says no? Talk to HR, find the loop hole (private healthcare decision sounds perfect). Alright, this one may be a bit more out there. Reader discretion advised. Just do it. Don't come back in the office. Don't make a lot of noise about it, make sure your productivity stays up, and have numbers to back it up. If your manager catches heat, do whatever is necessary to relieve him or her then go back to WFH.
- heavyset_go 5y agoMake it clear that you have, live with, or take care of someone with health conditions that make you worry for your own health or someone else's. Organize with your coworkers who feel the same way as you do about returning to the office, and negotiate as a group. It also helps to have an offer from a company that can meet your needs if your current employer won't.
- xtracto 5y agoI was in an executive position at a startup that wouldn't move to full work from home. I quit and moved to another startup that will let me work from home. In the end it was higher salary, lower responsibilities and the ability to work form anywhere. Best decision I could have made.
- ska 5y agoApproach this like any negotiation. Know what you actually want, and what you are willing to give up (and not). Try to determine what they actually want. Try and find a solution that is mostly positive for everyone.
- koolba 5y agoFind another job and don’t tell them anything until you have a firm offer. When it gets to that point tell them it’s full remote or the highway. If they refuse, walk. If you do mention the offer after being refused your ultimatum, do not expect your job to be secure. You’ll be a marked man as you’ve demonstrated that you’re willing to walk away. Unless they counter with a substantial enough pay bump and you have equally substantial faith in them upholding the agreement for the long term (unlikely), walk.
- RappingBoomer 5y agomy union is working on it right nao
- christophilus 5y agoApply to Elastic. Seriously. There’s a massive difference between working for a company that is remote first vs being one of a handful of special snowflakes. If you’re working for a company where remote work is a negotiation, I say it’s a good sign that you should seek greener pastures.
- jonpurdy 5y agoAgreed. I work for a remote first company and it’s night and day compared to previous employers’ policies. Life is just easier when one doesn’t need to justify their reasons for remote work.
- richardanaya 5y agoShame on corps needlessly making people work in offices.
- blihp 5y agoSuccessfully negotiating this realistically means being prepared to walk at most companies that don't already embrace remote work. If you're not prepared to do so, you're not really negotiating as much as asking. If you're asking, expect 'no' for an answer.
- paxys 5y agoBe ready to quit. You already have all the leverage in the world. It's incredibly easy to get a good remote software job today.
- caseybettle 5y agoI said I am moving to another city do you want me to try remote working or not? Yes. Within 3 months my productivity rose 5x, I received a large raise. Who knew not working in the equivalent of a hog barn (yes I have debugged code in a literal hog barn, one very thin door from the action) would raise your efficiency?
- andorxor 5y agoHa. I said I was moving to another city, can I work remote from there? No. So I handed in my notice and moved. And this was at a company that proudly trumpeted to the press that they were "virtual first" and has been remote since Covid started last spring. Your mileage may vary with these conversations.
- snow_mac 5y agoThe trouble with that, is that if you try that, it's a prefect reason for them to get rid of you. Oh they're moving! Perfect, lets fire their ass and hire somebody new!!!!!!!!
- llampx 5y agoI wonder about the kind of manager that actually thinks that.
- sgtnoodle 5y agoLol, I've been working out of a cattle ranch for the past 5 years. It's usually pretty quite though. After hardly touching it for a year due to COVID, today I was inspired to clean my desk. There was probably a millimeter thick of dust in some places.
- rajacombinator 5y agoSame as any negotiation. Have an alternative, threaten to walk.
- yawaworht1978 5y agoMany companies use misleading job descriptions, claiming remote work etc. But they do not mention that it is only due to covid and that they will not give up their offices. For whatever obscure reason.
- Buttons840 5y agoLots of good advice here. But also remember there are good books on negotiation, business dealings, communication, etc. I recommend a book on negotiation called "Never Split the Difference". It's written by a former FBI hostage negotiator, it's filled with interesting stories and good advice. Some negotiation books seem like a "bag of tricks" which only work if the other person doesn't know the tricks, not this book, this book is filled with advice that would work even if both parties are using the negotiation techniques described in the book.
- edderly 5y agoDecide who you're negotiating with. Is it your manager or is it the company or organization? There could be differences in opinion depending on who you ask. Do not bother talking to HR. Ask for feedback on your performance while working remotely. Also you can provide evidence that you are working & performing well. Clearly you want to still work for this company, point that out. Ask yourself what your career path is at this company, is there a difference between your expectations at this place and theirs? Will this be affected by your presence in the office? Do not put salary and benefits discussions on the table yourself, leave that up to the company.
- throwaway95011 5y agoBegan this negotiation with my employer a couple months ago for reasons unrelated to COVID (partner is taking on a job that requires relocation). Got pretty far, but was ultimately denied. Some things I learned in the process: - Make it clear that work remote is a requirement for you - Consider things that may make your manger's life easier, as they may need to argue up the chain on your behalf. Draw upon any positive performance reviews, performance metrics. Consider whether you'd be willing to fly in for one week per quarter. Point to any existing permanently remote coworkers as examples / precedents. - Talk to as many people in your direct management chain as possible (without going around people of course). - Be prepared to leave.
- zacharycohn 5y agoIf the conversation doesn't work out, you can always join a company that's committed to distributed work in the long term. Like www.demandstar.com... the uh.. the company I work for. :)
- nimchimpsky 5y agoJust do it, start working from home. Ask for forgiveness, not permission.
- edent 5y agoJoin a union. You as an individual have very little power. You don't know the intricacies of employment law. You aren't a trained negotiator. A Trade Union has a bunch of lawyers and negotiators who work for you. Join a union. Convince your colleagues to join. Use collective bargaining to negotiate with your employer.
- jkingsbery 5y agoI see a ton of comments on this post that indicate how much power an individual can have. Many people point out negotiating from a position of power, for example by doing good work, or by being prepared to leave for a more remote friendly company. Honest question: Why do you think involving lawyers would improve the situation? Why do you think this is a matter of employment law? For what it's worth, I worked for a company where most software engineers were unionized. The union accomplished almost nothing on behalf of employees besides taking a chunk of their pay check and otherwise complicating situations that people are able to work out themselves.
- edent 5y ago> I see a ton of comments on this post that indicate how much power an individual can have. Not everyone is in as fortunate position as you. Not everyone wants to change employer. You are, to your employer, another cog. If you got hit by a bus, or suddenly resigned - the business would carry on without you. But if lots of you are unhappy - that's where the power is. If you don't think employment lawyers are advantageous - why does your business have so many of them? To counter your annecdata, I've worked in several heavily unionised offices. The union has charged very little and has consistently helped us make improvements which were initially resisted by management.
- jkingsbery 5y agoEmployment lawyers are helpful with, well, employment law, which companies need to comply with. They don't help with everything though. Employment lawyers don't understand what I want and what trade-offs I'd be willing to make to have those things happen, nor do they, as employment lawyers, have insights into the specific trade-offs my employer "I want to have a different working arrangement" isn't a legal question. I recognize my good fortune. However, on a site called "Hacker News," I'm going to assume that most people here work in technology and have roughly similar leverage to what I have or have had in the past. If your employer doesn't treat you well and you work in software development, IT or a related field, you should leave because there are employers out there that will treat you decently. None of us are entitled to one specific job. Unions make sense in some situations. Evidently people in the technology sector have been able to work this specific question out without them.
- crossroadsguy 5y agoTell, don’t ask. Personally I’d like to go back to office. But I do understand why many people may not want to.
- amir734jj 5y agoBecause not everyone has a perfect health. I suffer from asthma and have autoimmune desease. I much prefer to work from home.
- 29athrowaway 5y agoIf I was your manager, the questions I would ask are: - Do you have a designated space that is adequate and safe for work? - Do you have an ergonomic setup including an ergonomic chair and desk? - Do you have reliable / high speed internet connectivity? - Do you have a proper microphone setup? (and camera if required)? - Will you commit to be responsive via instant messaging or another communication solution during office hours? - Will you comply with good practices regarding the handling and disposal of confidential or sensitive information? If you can answer yes to all of that, I would have no problems with you becoming a remote employee.
- js8 5y agoAlso don't forget to ask them if they have a functioning toilet at home. /s These questions are extremely patronizing.
- 29athrowaway 5y agoIt's a checklist. First, it makes it clear that the stuff in the list becomes your own responsibility when you WFH. Second, the annoyance of a one-time routine checklist you can cover in 3 minutes is infinitely better than any of those things going wrong.
- cooperaustinj 5y agoWhere's this manager been for the last year? All of these potential issues will have been resolved or found to be non-issues after a year of wfh.
- samcheng 5y agoFor what it's worth, I've recently been interviewing candidates who straight-up resigned from their previous employer after facing a "return to work" ultimatum. You can too! I'd like to add that there is a big difference between "most of the company is in-office with some remote workers" and "company is fully distributed including leadership" - with the former, it's not necessarily a positive work environment being the remote person when everyone else is talking to each other in the conference room (or in the hallway). In other words, even if you do negotiate an exception to your employer's return-to-office policy, it's likely not a good career move. There are plenty of companies out there who have transitioned to remote-first, and the technical skill-set is still highly prized. Take advantage!
- MrGilbert 5y agoI'm in the same boat. Our CEO was an extreme opponent to wfh before the pandemic. You could get wfh on a day-to-day base, but only if you could provide good reasons for that. During the pandemic, we all proved that wfh works. Hell, some of my coworkers and I opened up a discord, were we are more or less in voice chat the whole time. It's like working in the office, but without many of the downsides. Being challenged, CEO decided to give everyone 12 wfh days per year. After asking why exactly "12", he argued that this were the average days people requested in the last 2 years before pandemic. That's just ridiculous. Yet, I'm still at the company, because I don't think that now is a good time to look for a new job without substantial savings. But alea iacta est, I guess. Also, it doesn't make sense to negotiate in private, even if I managed to get something negotiated: We are working in a team, and the team needs to be able to handle somebody who is working remotely. It's pretty hard to not let people behind if you aren't trained at wfh.
- mkhpalm 5y agoJust let them know you're not comfortable in an office setting due to health concerns.
- lmilcin 5y agoI have made sure my bosses and team are happy with me working remotely. That may have required me to do some extra. I am taking up meetings and emergencies outside my time zone working hours, I am helping the team to work better remotely and I invested extra in good video and audio setup.
- dkarras 5y agoBe of irreplaceable (or hard to replace) value, have leverage.
- baby 5y agoGoogle changed position because enough employees threatened to quit if they were forced to go back to work. I assure you that Google is not the only company in this position. By the way, I’ve started asking recruiters on Linkedin if the role they are reaching out to me for is remote. I’m not looking for a job but I bet if enough people start doing that there’ll be a shift :)
- sshagent 5y agoI did this some 12 years, clearly this predates covid. I didn't think they'd be that interested in despite my job clearly being doable remotely. I ended up working out how much my commute cost me in £ and then offered that they can reduce my salary by that much AND i'll just work from home. Then threw in some "I'll always be available over video chat" and if something is VERY important (not just team meetings) then you'll offer to come in. The odd time i do need to go in, i tend to travel in my lunch break. Takes about 90 minutes, but ...i can make up that 30 minutes. I've worked from home ever since, rejecting numerous jobs of twice my salary ....as quite simply i don't want 4 extra hours of travel each day.
- tailspin2019 5y agoNot directly answering your question, but early in lock down when working from home, I realised that I had become so incredibly productive and also *happy* by not being in the office that I decided I would never return to an office environment ever again, if I could help it. I was lucky to have a bit of negotiating sway due to our company having just been acquired and me reporting to the new CEO who was keen to keep me on board. So I could probably have negotiated remote-only as a permanent thing, but I actually chose to quit the business last year and become a freelance consultant, working for my old employer under a contract instead (which they were happy with as opposed to losing me altogether). So now I run my own business, choose my own work environment and tools (I have setup an awesome home office during lock down which is a pleasure to spend time in!) and contract for my old employer while building up some other clients too. For me, I’ve spent over half my career self-employed and I wanted to get back to this anyway, but for what it’s worth, if you want to fully dictate your work environment (location, tools, hours etc) you can’t beat being freelance! I appreciate this is not the advice you were looking for - just my personal experience in case it prompts any ideas. To more directly answer your question, just ask! One thing I’ve learnt over the years is that we often want things but are too afraid to ask. Even if you think you know what the answer will be, ask anyway. See what discussion there is to be had. The other thing I’d say is if you can negotiate 1-2 days remote (if they force you to a compromise) take it, because you can grow those 2 days into more from there if you can prove you’re productive in those days at home. It’s much easier to go fully remote if you’re already partly remote, so don’t look at it as a binary thing. BTW I’ve been on the other side of this too, helping one of my direct reports transition to fully remote. I was on board with it already but I had to “sell” the concept to my bosses in turn, but we made it happen. Good luck!
- AdrianB1 5y agoThere is no best way, I will tell you some options and what I did and works for me: 1. If you negotiate, the questions is what can you give to get something. The only thing you have is your work, so the negotiation can be simplified to "you work there or not" from your side and "all office, part office or all wfh" from their side. If you want "all wfh" then you have little to negotiate, if you want part time office and part time wfh you can negotiate the proportions. 2. What worked for me and a few colleagues: I am officially working partly from the office for almost 15 years. That "partly" is the key word and very subjective: in the winters I used to go to the office a few days per month, in the summer (easier commute, 30 min instead of 1-2 hours each way) a few days per week, the rest of the year was somewhere in between. In the past few years (more than one) I go to the office only when I need to be there, not when HR wants me there. My team is globally distributed, so it makes sense in my case. At the same time, I have a couple of colleagues working remote for many years, one is hundreds of kilometers away and one is one country border away; they are officially working from the office, but they are not physically needed there and nobody is looking for them, their immediate teams are also globally distributed. If this is not applicable for you, you cannot use this method. Most companies will not allow full wfh for different reasons, some are very valid and reasonable, so the best option may be to work partly from the office and negotiate that part. I think most companies will agree 1-2 days wfh and for some people they will accept more, depending on the specifics of the work these people do and the value for this company these people bring. These are the 2 points you can use in your favor.
- varispeed 5y agoIt's very simple - if they want you back, and you don't want to go back, then tell them so. I am only willing to agree to max 2 days in office a month. The moment they start to ask for me to come in more than that I'll post my resignation.
- caffeine 5y agoLike every negotiation it comes down to leverage (even though you wont USE the leverage, you cant negotiate unless you have it), and pain points. So: 1. Start with doing recon. Ask your manager how has remote been? What does his boss think? How has the company done overall? What's been frustrating? Knowing the pain points means you can later find concessions that are cheap to you but vital to them. 2. Get a fulky remote job offer from someone else. Doesn't have to be a job you love but needs to be a real option. Now you have leverage. 3. Now you are ready to begin the process - "if I wanted to stay fully remote, what would we do to make that work?" 4. When you meet resistance, try to make a small concession along one of the pain points you identified earlier ("I'm happy to commit to the same office hours as everyone else Tues-Thurs", "I've identified a reasonable meeting wall setup for my house", "I will come in 1 week a month to make sure we all stay bonded as a team"). Make sure it's something you dont mind conceding and it addresses their hottest pain point. 5. Always remain upbeat, and amicable during negotiations. This is a team effort to accomplish the goal of keeping you happy and productive at this company. 6. Dont mention the other job offer unless you really need to, or if they are dragging their feet. "I really want to remain here and work remotely, but this other fully remote job offer expires soon."
- aalphamuzammil 5y agoRemote work is the future
- znpy 5y agoRemote work has been the present for the past year or so, really
- Rockwell70 5y agoIn my case I told my boss to either let me WFH or I’ll find someone who will. He knows my skills are in demand so acquiesced. I did have another offer in hand but didn’t mention that.
- SergeAx 5y agoHow's lots of comments here describe returning to office as a "bad deal"? WFH was a forced move due to the pandemic. Now life is getting back to normal, vaccines are generally available, and office work is coming back. So it is not a bad deal, it's just returning to initial deal, after force majeure is over. It is true that lots of companies are embracing wfh or hybrid model right now, so if in TS shoes I would just changed the job and called it a day.
- mbrodersen 5y ago“Working from home during the last year has demonstrated that I have fewer sick days, all issues were resolved by email/phone, and my productivity is up. So I think it makes sense for me to continue working from home. Please let me know if there are any issues/problem with this so that we can discuss and find a solution.”
- ElectricMind 5y agoI think people try this negotiate but not entitled to remote work. When you applied for the job , did it say "REMOTE"? If no, then there is no entitlement to anything. You have to agree what company says. If you not happy then you can find a new job that says "REMOTE".
- SN76477 5y agoI am working my way though Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He goes through some very powerful negotiating techniques and strategies. If you are short on time, try a summary like this. It will help you will be better equipped for your negotiation when the time comes. https://youtu.be/QIRk382yJm4 https://youtu.be/QIRk382yJm4