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Alienware Doesn’t Want You to Buy an AMD Ryzen PC

275 points by basilgohar 6y ago

henriquez 6y ago
The conspiracy theorist in me suspects that Intel must be applying heavy-handed pressure to OEMs to keep them in line long enough for Intel to release a better architecture in a couple of years. The realist in me says that AMD has had major supply issues delivering the 7nm Zen3 chips in any appreciable quantity while Intel literally prints 14nm chips like it's going out of style. Given that you can spec a comparable Ryzen vs. Intel system on Dell's site I'm thinking Dell is just prioritizing their marketing focus on the systems where they can move the most volume. Else they'd be shooting themselves in the foot with "SOLD OUT" notices and backlogs.
- BoysenberryPi 6y ago
  I believe the real answer is between column A and column B. It would not surprise me to learn that Intel has exclusive product agreements with certain manufacturers top shelf products like the Thinkpad X1, Surface Pro, and the Dell XPS. Long before the shortage, people have been wondering why they can't buy any of these products with a Ryzen CPU. A Ryzen Thinkpad X1 would be an instant purchase for me personally. However, there is no denying that AMD is having supply issues and is arguably mismanaging the supply they do have with their constant paper launches.
  - basilgohar 6y ago
    I believe the column A, column B description is apt. For sure AMD is struggling with supply-chain issues, but despite that, they are still managing to lead and stay afloat in terms of tech and mindshare. These unfair practices by OEMs and Intel serve to exacerbate that problem and will make it harder for AMD to gather greater marketshare as well as mindshare which they could have otherwise reaped when supplies are greater. It's a double-whammy misfortune for AMD in that case, which they don't need as their tech really is advancing past Intel in many ways.
  - reader_mode 6y ago
    Are there any USB 4 Ryzen laptops ? If there are it must be a very recent thing. AMD has only been viable in laptops for a short while and with limited availability - I suspect they are going to start to show up in premium laptops once they start becoming more common place - just look at the delays between desktop and laptop releases - it's obvious laptops are not a priority for AMD
    - basilgohar 6y ago
      This is not the impression of many review sites – a lot of the premium Ryzen laptop offerings from certain OEMs (not the big ones) like Asus and others out of Asia are amongst the top performers and have excellent features. The issue at hand is that other, bigger OEMs are not putting AMD hardware into their best designs and thus yielding less than stellar performance or features. There are still cases of high-end Ryzen mobile CPUs being put into single-channel configurations!
      - reader_mode 6y ago
        I've looked at G15 Ryzen - it's USB 3.2 and sould out - so no USB 4.0 and limited availability like I said. I don't have any inside scoops into this industry but it could easily be that they are putting the new/untested parts in to lower tier products and reserving top tier ones for the tested configuration with a partner they know can deliver. Put it simply - X1 with AMD would probably sell out in a week, then they would be stuck with people waiting for that one over Intel, and they would cross Intel who still supplies them the majority of chips - sounds like a lose-lose to me. I'd like to get a top tier AMD ultra portable for sure (eg. a Surface Pro) but AMD seems completely owhervelmed by demand in all areas and they prioirtise laptops the lowest (from their own release timelines and previous statements)
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
  - bostonsre 6y ago
    Yea, would love a ThinkPad with amd and 32gb of memory (looks like they now can go to 32gb, but think they were all soldered 16gb last time I checked). Not quite as pretty as a Mac, but probably they best laptop keyboard I've used.
- basilgohar 6y ago
  If there's no supply, then simply don't offer the product. However, Alienware, a Dell property, doing as described in this article, is not surprising at all. Dell got in big trouble for their behind-the-scenes favoritism of Intel [0]. The offerings of Ryzen laptops tells a similar story, even before the supply shortages of late. They are only now escaping their shells, but large OEMs still give the best specs to Intel-powered laptops. Better offerings come from the smaller vendors. [0] https://fortune.com/2007/02/15/suit-intel-paid-dell-up-to-1-billion-a-year-not-to-use-amd-chips/ https://fortune.com/2007/02/15/suit-intel-paid-dell-up-to-1-...
- ginko 6y ago
  > The conspiracy theorist in me suspects that Intel must be applying heavy-handed pressure to OEMs to keep them in line long enough for Intel to release a better architecture in a couple of years. But what kind of pressure can Intel even apply? Intel CPUs are more expensive and have sub-par performance? Why would any OEM favor them?
  - virtue3 6y ago
    Intel had(has?) a practice of giving OEMs a discount if they only sell Intel chips.
  - basilgohar 6y ago
    See my sibling comment. Intel has applied incentives to OEMs before to give them preferential treatment. Dell got caught, but it's likely it's happened with others based on the same pattern existing elsewhere.
  - dnautics 6y ago
    "we will not sell you any of these chips unless you agree to exclusivity with our chips for dual channel DDR"
    - ginko 6y ago
      They have an inferior product. Dell could just call their bluff and go AMD exclusive.
      - tedunangst 6y ago
        And sell how many systems before running out of inventory?
      - felipelemos 6y ago
        The public perception is still that Intel is superior. If you don't have Intel products available or with a competitive price, you will lose market share. Remember that most people are tech illiterate (or not savy enough) to know/care about technical details more than they trust marketing and brands.
- photoGrant 6y ago
  Intel have heavily ramped up their consumer facing marketing push. There’s credence to the crumbs
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  People keep calling such suspicion "conspiracy theory" as if it's rare of unlikely. Intel in particular has been fined multiple times for this exact practice. Maybe they are back at it- if I were the regulator, I would at least take a look at the issue. https://www.extremetech.com/computing/184323-intel-stuck-with-1-45-billion-fine-in-europe-for-unfair-and-damaging-practices-against-amd https://www.extremetech.com/computing/184323-intel-stuck-wit...
  - radicalbyte 6y ago
    I don't think that this is the reason this time. I have a Ryzen 5950x system and like many other owners I suffer from poor stability. My machine crashes several times a week with CPU errors. This seems to be the result of poor BIOSes from AMD and their partners, more so than fab faults - reddit is full of people who still have issues after their 3rd RMA. I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole if I was Dell.
    - emodendroket 6y ago
      I have a 5800X and I hadn’t even heard of it. But the supply chain thing seems plausible — it’s still hard to get your hands on Zen 3.
    - lunfard00 6y ago
      lucky me never had issues with my 5950x (windows, x570 taichi). That being said, TDP 105w is bs.
      - Lev1a 6y ago
        Oh nooooo, your new top-of-the-line processor has a lower TDP than average-good processors from a few years ago! How absolutely horrible. /s, in case that wasn't blatantly obvious.
        lunfard00 6y ago
        That is not the issue, the issue is that AMD advertise 2700x and 5950x with the same TDP, so at the very least that should means that they both work fine when using the same cooling solution, which is not the case. Using my previous cooler 5950x was throttling at 100 Celsius.
- dnautics 6y ago
  It's not a conspiracy theory to suggest something that companies do all the time, and that intel regularly has and will probably continue to do. #2 does not explain the single channel DDR thing.
  - faeriechangling 6y ago
    Using the phrase "conspiracy theory" to simply describe theories about conspiracies is pretty common nowadays, the phrase doesn't have an inherently perojative connotation. Just because it's true does not mean it is not a conspiracy theory. Study showing the phrase "conspiracy theory" doesn't alter people's judgements of a situation: https://psmag.com/news/has-conspiracy-theory-lost-its-negative-connotations https://psmag.com/news/has-conspiracy-theory-lost-its-negati...
    - lupire 6y ago
      That study is interesting, but us an extremely synthetic testing environment, where everything in the experiment group was called a "consipiracy theory" in a synthetic research prompt, not measuring how peopld respond to actual usage of the term. "Being in a study" may have as large an effect on the result as "attitude toward the term "conspiracy theory".
    - dnautics 6y ago
      if you wanted the non-perjorative form you would say simply "conspiracy" without the word "theory".
  - henriquez 6y ago
    > #2 does not explain the single channel DDR thing. Dell has done that on Intel systems for as far as I can remember. Buy the cheapest machine they sell and it's par for the course. This isn't something they do to nerf AMD performance, it's something they do to hit a particular price point, and they always have.
- Spooky23 6y ago
  Intel provides backend rebates to channels or even large commercial end users (usually if you use Intel ssd) for exclusivity. AMD does the same — I’m sure HP has favored pricing. As someone who bought large numbers of devices in the last year, I would say that the AMD devices had more supply chain issues than any other devices, from thin clients to desktops to laptops. That may not mean it’s an AMD thing, those issues may well be due to the OEM as many devices/components are constrained.
- LegitShady 6y ago
  My bet is they're giving dell a much better price and dell makes more money off those systems making it an incentive instead of pressure. Intel fabbing their own chips gives them a lot more room for profit than amd in the end price - basically you could give the equivalent of half tsmc's cut to an OEM and still make more money than amd per chip.
- Asmod4n 6y ago
  In the past, Intel simply paid your marketing campaign when you advertised its products. Remember how every manufactor had fullpage advertisements of Intel PCs in every magazine you could buy?
edem 6y ago
I don't buy Alienware then. Easy.
- dnautics 6y ago
  But also tell your friends to not buy alienware
  - bellyfullofbac 6y ago
    Linus (Tech Tips) had an employee buy computers on the phone, and the Dell sales put on several extra warranty packages despite the "mystery shoppper" saying she didn't want them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go5tLO6ipxw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go5tLO6ipxw
  - edem 6y ago
    None of my friends are buying that overpriced garbage.
firebaze 6y ago
I'm curious if Intel will be able to turn tides in time before mainstream opinion follows reality. AMD is quite far ahead, ARM (not just with Apple M1) is a generation ahead, and Microsoft dominance (i.e. x86 dominance) is fading. Either Intel has a fully new architecture ready and is just waiting for the best time to unveil the beast in the making, or they're starting to be part of history. Reminds me a bit of Boeing in the face of SpaceX and Airbus. Maybe a bit unfair, since Intel is innovating, just apparently without much luck until today.
- tester756 6y ago
  >and Microsoft dominance (i.e. x86 dominance) is fading. What?
  - morsch 6y ago
    The dominance of x86 PCs, which are Microsoft's bread and butter (the "Wintel" platform), is fading, as more people are using ARM devices as their main or only computing device. Arguably. I think that's what they meant, anyway.
  - firebaze 6y ago
    What I meant is: a few years ago, Windows was set - either you used Windows (usual) or MacOS (you got spare money), or you probably used Linux or something else (geek). In Server-Space, you mostly used either Linux or Windows ASP. Nowadays, not so much anymore. Linux prevails (and doesn't care if x86 or ARM) and Windows is losing grounds week by week (even MS itself seems to favor Linux for server-side stuff, or technology-agnostic NPM etc.). Even on laptop and desktop machines Linux is gaining momentum (but is still far behind Microsoft), but that market is getting smaller and smaller. So, my personal opinion is that the x86 dominanace is fading. Not Azure, not Microsoft as a whole, but the presence of its desktop operating system, as it seems to me, definitely is losing importance fast. I'd not be surprised if MS offers a linux window manager which emulates windows, so to speak.
    - bartvk 6y ago
brutus1213 6y ago
I bought the R10 late last year (before the new Ryzen chips were in stock) so ended up getting the AMD Ryzen 3700x. I was quite confused why Dell was even offering the single channel RAM option. The actual hardware Dell uses is a bit annoying. It seems even the GPU I got was a Dell specific version. The motherboard is also their custom chipset. I am fine with what I have but it is perplexing that Dell positions Alienware to be upgradable and makes it pretty difficult to do so (e.g. I made the mistake of not getting the system watercooled .. the steps required seem out of my hardware skill level). I'd also be keen to swap the Ryzen 3700 for the newer series chip .. but have no clue whether that is possible on that motherboard. Also, can I say AMDs numbering makes no sense to me personally.
- 66fm472tjy7 6y ago
  > The motherboard is also their custom chipset It's a custom motherboard but not a custom chipset. The chipset comes from AMD. > I'd also be keen to swap the Ryzen 3700 for the newer series chip .. but have no clue whether that is possible on that motherboard If the chipset is A520, B550 or X570, you have Ryzen 5000 / Zen 3 support, though it probably requires a BIOS update. You might also have Zen 3 support on B450, B550A, X470 [0]. Check the BIOS release notes for your machine. > I made the mistake of not getting the system watercooled Most water cooled systems only water cool the CPU, which in your case (a 65W TDP CPU) is absurd. Good air coolers match the performance of twice as expensive AIOs [1] and have far less potential for breakage. > Also, can I say AMDs numbering makes no sense to me personally. The first digit is the generation. 1000 series -> Zen 1 architecture, 2000 series -> Zen+, 3000 series -> Zen 2, 5000 series -> zen 3. The higher the number after that, the better the CPU is within the generation (more cores/cache, higher frequency). [0] https://www.anandtech.com/show/15807/amd-to-support-zen-3-and-ryzen-4000-cpus-on-b450-and-x470-motherboards https://www.anandtech.com/show/15807/amd-to-support-zen-3-an... [1] https://youtu.be/23vjWtUpItk?t=482 https://youtu.be/23vjWtUpItk?t=482
  - Jiejeing 6y ago
    > The first digit is the generation. 1000 series -> Zen 1 architecture, 2000 series -> Zen+, 3000 series -> Zen 2, 5000 series -> zen 3. The higher the number after that, the better the CPU is within the generation (more cores/cache, higher frequency). Except in APU territory, where nothing makes sense and cpus with the same first digit will be of different zen generations.
mangix 6y ago
I just saw an HP prebuilt with Ryzen and dual channel memory. Quite impressive for a prebuilt. Time to throw Alienware in the dumpster.
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k__ 6y ago
What's the best Ryzen laptop on the market right now?
- dvko 6y ago
  I have a Lenovo Yoga Slim 7 with a Ryzen 4800U and love it. Running Linux on it, everything pretty much worked right out of the box.
- basilgohar 6y ago
  It's a good idea to wait because Ryzen 5000 mobile devices are starting to come out. The Asus Zephyrus has been getting accolades for it's design and performance, but if you're looking for thin-and-light or ultrabooks, the Zenbook (also Asus) is well regarded too. There are a slew of models out there. Lenovo usually has some good ones too but they lag a bit behind other OEMs in their offerings.
  - pdimitar 6y ago
    Which exact Zenbook, do you have a link? I've struggled with Asus' website many times.
Farfignoggen 6y ago
Here's an interesting Litmus test: Go into any Staples regular brick and mortar Retail location and look at the Laptops on the showroom Floor and see if they have any AMD laptops on display there! And If they do not then ask the sales associate why. And I've asked and been told that they have AMD options but the AMD laptop has to be ordered online! So do that at Staples and other Office Stores that have brick and mortar retail locations!
- CraftThatBlock 6y ago
  This is likely due to low stock of AMD laptops in general (they sell like hot cakes). Once stock availability is improved, I would expect to see more in-store stock.
  - Farfignoggen 6y ago
    No that's not the issue if Staples does not have any AMD laptops in it's brick and mortar store locations to begin with and only sells AMD laptops online. So that's the issue of not giving AMD's laptops any showroom floor retail presence and gives Intel an unfair advantage! Shoppers are much more likely to purchase directly from the showroom and with AMD's laptops Not stocked at all at the retailer's brick and mortar locations and only Intel's laptops in stock there and Intel's more than likely to get a retail brick and mortar store sale so really the Antitrust folks need to be made aware of this tactic! Staples has no display AMD models to speak of, stock of AMD laptops or not, and Display models are not sold until that model is no longer being sold by the retailer as they are display units! I was told that AMD laptops are only available Online from Staples! Staples is being incentivized it appears!
- Match451 6y ago
  I’ve been watching whether there are AMD laptops in retail stores for years. I’ve been pretty consistently disappointed. I’d estimate I saw about 10 Intel laptops for 1 AMD for sale. They typically only ever had lower tier stuff if anything at all. Usually the bottom tier APUs. None of the higher range processors that were competitive. It created an image that AMDs processors are only low range. The last time I went to Costco though, they had an HP Envy x360 with an AMD 4700u in it. There was maybe a 1 to 4 ratio of AMD to Intel machines. I think AMDs offerings are too good to ignore at this point.
Farfignoggen 6y ago
Intel Gets Sneaky "Despite losing considerable market share to AMD, Intel held on to a commanding lead by exerting its influence on computer manufacturers. Most famous was the “Intel Inside” co-branding program, in which Intel gave “market-development funds” to computer manufacturers if they highlighted the Intel brand on their products. But “Intel Inside” was not nearly as controversial as Intel’s practice of paying “loyalty rebates” to computer manufacturers for not using AMD chips. On the surface, Intel’s loyalty rebate programs appeared to be innocent volume or bundled discounts. Courts had struggled to apply section 2 of the Sherman Antitrust Act to the issue of bundled discounts, as it was hard to distinguish harmless discounts from loyalty rebates provided for the sole purpose of acquiring or maintaining monopoly power. But by taking into consideration the market conditions at the time and the nature of Intel’s relationship with the computer manufacturers, the monopolistic intent underlying Intel’s actions is noticeable. The commoditization of the PC market had severely impacted the profit margins of computer manufacturers, leaving their hopes of meeting quarterly earnings targets at the mercy of Intel’s loyalty rebates. In internal emails at major computer manufacturers, company executives were clearly distressed by the risk of losing such rebates, and most importantly, profitability, if they adopted AMD chips—or, as one Dell executive poignantly put it, Intel was “prepared for ‘jihad’ if Dell joins the AMD exodus.” Indeed, AMD’s biggest barrier in breaking 25% in overall x86 market share was its failure to court Dell, the biggest U.S. computer manufacturer. Dell was for a long time an exclusive Intel customer, but actually had been quite eager to use AMD’s chips. In an e-mail to Intel’s CEO in 2005, Michael Dell wrote, “None of the current benchmarks and reviews say that Intel based systems are better than AMD. We are losing the hearts, minds and wallets of our best customers.” Intel was quick to address Dell’s concerns. Intel’s CEO, Paul Otellini, replied, “[W]e are transferring over $1B per year to Dell for meet comp efforts. This [should be] more than sufficient to compensate for the competitive issues.” Soon after, Dell’s CEO Kevin Rollins announced that Dell had “made no plans to begin using” AMD chips, which Otellini described as “the best friend money can buy.” "(1) (1) [See Subheading: Intel Gets Sneaky] "Intel and the x86 Architecture: A Legal Perspective Written by Greg Tang January 04, 2011" http://jolt.law.harvard.edu/digest/intel-and-the-x86-architecture-a-legal-perspective http://jolt.law.harvard.edu/digest/intel-and-the-x86-archite...
lumost 6y ago
Given the supply issues and the challenges with most OEMs placing AMD products in inferior packages with subpar support. Wouldn't it make some amount of sense for AMD to focus on a preferred OEM who put their products in a premium package with dedicated focus? Right now it seems that most OEMs are hesitant to commit to the product line given supply issues.
- mordae 6y ago
  After many years of running AMD desktops I now own my very first AMD ThinkPad as well. I think they are slowly getting there.
  - rahimnathwani 6y ago
    In October, I ordered an AMD Thinkpad from Lenovo's online store. It arrived in January.
varispeed 6y ago
Isn't the problem that companies have plenty of products with Intel chips that nobody wants and they just don't want to go bankrupt so they use different tactics to manipulate consumer into buying such product? I am looking for a laptop with the new Ryzen and it is very difficult. It seems like companies do their best to make it hard to find any of their product with AMD inside and Intel is all over the place. I am not sure if they realise how this damages their image? Why a consumer would buy a machine with reheated vintage Intel CPU that is already obsolete when it leaves the store new?
- stevehawk 6y ago
  the problem is.. it's intel.. and they've lost multiple court battles showing that they used illegal/protective contracts in the forms of rebates/discounts/kickbacks to block out AMD from the market. And this is likely a continuation of that. This isn't just Alienware pushing one over another, they're actively making one look bad / less attractive.
Rapzid 6y ago
I've been wanting a 5950x at MSRP since last December. This is the one time in recent history I'm not sure any of this really matters to AMD. They physically can't produce enough chips to meet demand. I'm even skeptical of any future damages this could cause by harming their brand image at this particular point in time; everybody wants AMD right now and this is further enhanced because "you can't have it".
- mjevans 6y ago
  I'd like a 5900x at MSRP because it's a good blend of single core and multicore performance. Though what I really want is a 6800XT GPU, since my current GPU is about 6 YEARS old. Dang crypto miner BS.
bitL 6y ago
AMD notebooks/systems usually come with less memory, storage and inferior GPUs, despite being faster than Intel. The thing that makes me most upset are inferior displays; often the top AMD model has some TN panel at 1920x1080, whereas top Intel model has an OLED 4k. This is criminal. I had to buy an Intel-based Razer with 4k@120 and 3080 because there is no similar AMD model provided by anyone. Like nobody in the whole world has a comparable AMD system.
- exporectomy 6y ago
  Maybe it's just market segmentation with better GPUs aimed at gamers and better CPUs aimed at "creators"? I think a lot of games won't fully use 16 cores but many creator-type applications use as many as available while not needing cutting edge graphics.
- totalZero 6y ago
  A 4K notebook display barely improves what your eyes see, at the cost of an enormous bump in power consumption. From an engineering perspective that's not a good tradeoff for battery life. This may be why they don't dominate the market. ASUS makes multiple AMD laptops with high resolution and/or high refresh rate. Not sure if any are 4K OLED 120Hz, but the fact that you chose a corner case display constraint that was only satisfied by Intel machines may be more a reflection of the constraint than a conspiracy. The vast majority of Intel models don't offer that option either. Also it's very easy to find IPS and VA laptops, but if you noticed a TN panel being offered for a gaming machine that's because it offers superior response time at the cost of contrast and color accuracy.
  - caskstrength 6y ago
    > Several bones to pick with your post but the salient one is that a 4K notebook display barely improves what your eyes see, at the cost of an enormous bump in power consumption. No, it might barely improve what _you_ see, but for me the difference between screens on work laptop (FHD) and my personal X1C is enormous and immediately obvious.
    - 6y ago
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PeterisP 6y ago
If they really don't want you to buy an AMD Ryzen PC for whatever reason, why would they go to all these shenanigans instead of simply increasing the price on Ryzen-based computers? That would be a win-win, they get the AMD sale reduction (no matter why they wanted that) and a larger margin.
yongjik 6y ago
So I searched for Alienware and arrived at: https://www.dell.com/en-us/gaming/alienware-desktops https://www.dell.com/en-us/gaming/alienware-desktops It proudly shows two desktops, one at the left, another at the right. The left one is Intel, the right one is AMD. Sure, some of the fine prints may suggest Intel is better (like saying "Up to RTX 3090" instead of 3080), but other fine prints suggest AMD is better (16 vs 8 cores). If Dell actually doesn't want me to buy AMD, they sure have a really roundabout way of saying it.
- basilgohar 6y ago
  The article lists several points (I believe at least 6) where the Intel system is either configured better than the AMD one or the language used indicates it's the "better" system. And these configuration changes are choices – like dual-channel RAM for Intel and single-channel for AMD.
GekkePrutser 6y ago
The not-shifting of the R10 number could also be because it's using the same motherboard, which is possible with AMD but not with Intel. However if they haven't redesigned the motherboard it would mean that they couldn't take advantage of PCIe 4.0 on the AMD which would be a problem in itself of course. I wonder if it's really pressure from intel that makes this bias happen by the way. Intel can hardy keep up with demand and performance right now, and many OEMs have already started AMD offerings, especially in the crucial business market. Additionally, regulators are more aware of these practices now.
rossdavidh 6y ago
While there is no question (it has been proven in court, IIRC) that Intel has used leverage to coerce computer makers into favoring their CPUs in the past, the fact is that currently AMD is selling all the chips they can make. So a less dramatic reading is "Alienware Wants To Convince Everyone Willing to Buy Intel To Do So, Because They Can Sell All Their AMD Systems Regardless".
walrus01 6y ago
> Alienware should hang its head in shame at the idea of charging people $3,400 — the minimum price for a Ryzen 9 5950X system — for a boutique PC stuck behind 16GB of single-channel memory without so much as a warning I used to work for an x86/x86-64 system manufacturer (primarily servers, but also high end workstations) some 15+ years ago. This is truly inexcusable and a sad reflection on how the consumer facing side of the industry really hasn't changed in the past 15-20 years. I saw competitors doing exactly the same sort of thing, selling things to end users who had more money than technical acumen or common sense. And people wonder why the serious enthusiast crowd still prefers to build their own PCs in the year 2021...
- GordonS 6y ago
  I'm in the market for a new laptop just now, and there aren't many options with more than 16GB RAM - I don't understand why it's so difficult!
Animats 6y ago
Not only that, the AMD Ryzen will support ECC memory, while Intel will not. (Now if only you could get ECC memory for the additional 15% it actually costs.)
sitkack 6y ago
Lump in Lenovo with this practice, canceled SKUs, configurations that are only available for intel making AMD versions at a large disadvantage

275 points by basilgohar 6y ago

The conspiracy theorist in me suspects that Intel must be applying heavy-handed pressure to OEMs to keep them in line long enough for Intel to release a better architecture in a couple of years. The realist in me says that AMD has had major supply issues delivering the 7nm Zen3 chips in any appreciable quantity while Intel literally prints 14nm chips like it's going out of style. Given that you can spec a comparable Ryzen vs. Intel system on Dell's site I'm thinking Dell is just prioritizing their marketing focus on the systems where they can move the most volume. Else they'd be shooting themselves in the foot with "SOLD OUT" notices and backlogs.

BoysenberryPi 6y ago
I believe the real answer is between column A and column B. It would not surprise me to learn that Intel has exclusive product agreements with certain manufacturers top shelf products like the Thinkpad X1, Surface Pro, and the Dell XPS. Long before the shortage, people have been wondering why they can't buy any of these products with a Ryzen CPU. A Ryzen Thinkpad X1 would be an instant purchase for me personally. However, there is no denying that AMD is having supply issues and is arguably mismanaging the supply they do have with their constant paper launches.
- basilgohar 6y ago
  I believe the column A, column B description is apt. For sure AMD is struggling with supply-chain issues, but despite that, they are still managing to lead and stay afloat in terms of tech and mindshare. These unfair practices by OEMs and Intel serve to exacerbate that problem and will make it harder for AMD to gather greater marketshare as well as mindshare which they could have otherwise reaped when supplies are greater. It's a double-whammy misfortune for AMD in that case, which they don't need as their tech really is advancing past Intel in many ways.
- reader_mode 6y ago
  Are there any USB 4 Ryzen laptops ? If there are it must be a very recent thing. AMD has only been viable in laptops for a short while and with limited availability - I suspect they are going to start to show up in premium laptops once they start becoming more common place - just look at the delays between desktop and laptop releases - it's obvious laptops are not a priority for AMD
  - basilgohar 6y ago
    This is not the impression of many review sites – a lot of the premium Ryzen laptop offerings from certain OEMs (not the big ones) like Asus and others out of Asia are amongst the top performers and have excellent features. The issue at hand is that other, bigger OEMs are not putting AMD hardware into their best designs and thus yielding less than stellar performance or features. There are still cases of high-end Ryzen mobile CPUs being put into single-channel configurations!
    - reader_mode 6y ago
      I've looked at G15 Ryzen - it's USB 3.2 and sould out - so no USB 4.0 and limited availability like I said. I don't have any inside scoops into this industry but it could easily be that they are putting the new/untested parts in to lower tier products and reserving top tier ones for the tested configuration with a partner they know can deliver. Put it simply - X1 with AMD would probably sell out in a week, then they would be stuck with people waiting for that one over Intel, and they would cross Intel who still supplies them the majority of chips - sounds like a lose-lose to me. I'd like to get a top tier AMD ultra portable for sure (eg. a Surface Pro) but AMD seems completely owhervelmed by demand in all areas and they prioirtise laptops the lowest (from their own release timelines and previous statements)
      - deleted 6y ago
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- bostonsre 6y ago
  Yea, would love a ThinkPad with amd and 32gb of memory (looks like they now can go to 32gb, but think they were all soldered 16gb last time I checked). Not quite as pretty as a Mac, but probably they best laptop keyboard I've used.
basilgohar 6y ago
If there's no supply, then simply don't offer the product. However, Alienware, a Dell property, doing as described in this article, is not surprising at all. Dell got in big trouble for their behind-the-scenes favoritism of Intel [0]. The offerings of Ryzen laptops tells a similar story, even before the supply shortages of late. They are only now escaping their shells, but large OEMs still give the best specs to Intel-powered laptops. Better offerings come from the smaller vendors. [0] https://fortune.com/2007/02/15/suit-intel-paid-dell-up-to-1-billion-a-year-not-to-use-amd-chips/ https://fortune.com/2007/02/15/suit-intel-paid-dell-up-to-1-...
ginko 6y ago
> The conspiracy theorist in me suspects that Intel must be applying heavy-handed pressure to OEMs to keep them in line long enough for Intel to release a better architecture in a couple of years. But what kind of pressure can Intel even apply? Intel CPUs are more expensive and have sub-par performance? Why would any OEM favor them?
- virtue3 6y ago
  Intel had(has?) a practice of giving OEMs a discount if they only sell Intel chips.
- basilgohar 6y ago
  See my sibling comment. Intel has applied incentives to OEMs before to give them preferential treatment. Dell got caught, but it's likely it's happened with others based on the same pattern existing elsewhere.
- dnautics 6y ago
  "we will not sell you any of these chips unless you agree to exclusivity with our chips for dual channel DDR"
  - ginko 6y ago
    They have an inferior product. Dell could just call their bluff and go AMD exclusive.
    - tedunangst 6y ago
      And sell how many systems before running out of inventory?
    - felipelemos 6y ago
      The public perception is still that Intel is superior. If you don't have Intel products available or with a competitive price, you will lose market share. Remember that most people are tech illiterate (or not savy enough) to know/care about technical details more than they trust marketing and brands.
photoGrant 6y ago
Intel have heavily ramped up their consumer facing marketing push. There’s credence to the crumbs
ClumsyPilot 6y ago
People keep calling such suspicion "conspiracy theory" as if it's rare of unlikely. Intel in particular has been fined multiple times for this exact practice. Maybe they are back at it- if I were the regulator, I would at least take a look at the issue. https://www.extremetech.com/computing/184323-intel-stuck-with-1-45-billion-fine-in-europe-for-unfair-and-damaging-practices-against-amd https://www.extremetech.com/computing/184323-intel-stuck-wit...
- radicalbyte 6y ago
  I don't think that this is the reason this time. I have a Ryzen 5950x system and like many other owners I suffer from poor stability. My machine crashes several times a week with CPU errors. This seems to be the result of poor BIOSes from AMD and their partners, more so than fab faults - reddit is full of people who still have issues after their 3rd RMA. I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole if I was Dell.
  - emodendroket 6y ago
    I have a 5800X and I hadn’t even heard of it. But the supply chain thing seems plausible — it’s still hard to get your hands on Zen 3.
  - lunfard00 6y ago
    lucky me never had issues with my 5950x (windows, x570 taichi). That being said, TDP 105w is bs.
    - Lev1a 6y ago
      Oh nooooo, your new top-of-the-line processor has a lower TDP than average-good processors from a few years ago! How absolutely horrible. /s, in case that wasn't blatantly obvious.
      - lunfard00 6y ago
        That is not the issue, the issue is that AMD advertise 2700x and 5950x with the same TDP, so at the very least that should means that they both work fine when using the same cooling solution, which is not the case. Using my previous cooler 5950x was throttling at 100 Celsius.
dnautics 6y ago
It's not a conspiracy theory to suggest something that companies do all the time, and that intel regularly has and will probably continue to do. #2 does not explain the single channel DDR thing.
- faeriechangling 6y ago
  Using the phrase "conspiracy theory" to simply describe theories about conspiracies is pretty common nowadays, the phrase doesn't have an inherently perojative connotation. Just because it's true does not mean it is not a conspiracy theory. Study showing the phrase "conspiracy theory" doesn't alter people's judgements of a situation: https://psmag.com/news/has-conspiracy-theory-lost-its-negative-connotations https://psmag.com/news/has-conspiracy-theory-lost-its-negati...
  - lupire 6y ago
    That study is interesting, but us an extremely synthetic testing environment, where everything in the experiment group was called a "consipiracy theory" in a synthetic research prompt, not measuring how peopld respond to actual usage of the term. "Being in a study" may have as large an effect on the result as "attitude toward the term "conspiracy theory".
  - dnautics 6y ago
    if you wanted the non-perjorative form you would say simply "conspiracy" without the word "theory".
- henriquez 6y ago
  > #2 does not explain the single channel DDR thing. Dell has done that on Intel systems for as far as I can remember. Buy the cheapest machine they sell and it's par for the course. This isn't something they do to nerf AMD performance, it's something they do to hit a particular price point, and they always have.
Spooky23 6y ago
Intel provides backend rebates to channels or even large commercial end users (usually if you use Intel ssd) for exclusivity. AMD does the same — I’m sure HP has favored pricing. As someone who bought large numbers of devices in the last year, I would say that the AMD devices had more supply chain issues than any other devices, from thin clients to desktops to laptops. That may not mean it’s an AMD thing, those issues may well be due to the OEM as many devices/components are constrained.
LegitShady 6y ago
My bet is they're giving dell a much better price and dell makes more money off those systems making it an incentive instead of pressure. Intel fabbing their own chips gives them a lot more room for profit than amd in the end price - basically you could give the equivalent of half tsmc's cut to an OEM and still make more money than amd per chip.
Asmod4n 6y ago
In the past, Intel simply paid your marketing campaign when you advertised its products. Remember how every manufactor had fullpage advertisements of Intel PCs in every magazine you could buy?

edem 6y ago

I don't buy Alienware then. Easy.

dnautics 6y ago
But also tell your friends to not buy alienware
- bellyfullofbac 6y ago
  Linus (Tech Tips) had an employee buy computers on the phone, and the Dell sales put on several extra warranty packages despite the "mystery shoppper" saying she didn't want them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go5tLO6ipxw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go5tLO6ipxw
- edem 6y ago
  None of my friends are buying that overpriced garbage.

firebaze 6y ago

I'm curious if Intel will be able to turn tides in time before mainstream opinion follows reality. AMD is quite far ahead, ARM (not just with Apple M1) is a generation ahead, and Microsoft dominance (i.e. x86 dominance) is fading. Either Intel has a fully new architecture ready and is just waiting for the best time to unveil the beast in the making, or they're starting to be part of history. Reminds me a bit of Boeing in the face of SpaceX and Airbus. Maybe a bit unfair, since Intel is innovating, just apparently without much luck until today.

tester756 6y ago
>and Microsoft dominance (i.e. x86 dominance) is fading. What?
- morsch 6y ago
  The dominance of x86 PCs, which are Microsoft's bread and butter (the "Wintel" platform), is fading, as more people are using ARM devices as their main or only computing device. Arguably. I think that's what they meant, anyway.
- firebaze 6y ago
  What I meant is: a few years ago, Windows was set - either you used Windows (usual) or MacOS (you got spare money), or you probably used Linux or something else (geek). In Server-Space, you mostly used either Linux or Windows ASP. Nowadays, not so much anymore. Linux prevails (and doesn't care if x86 or ARM) and Windows is losing grounds week by week (even MS itself seems to favor Linux for server-side stuff, or technology-agnostic NPM etc.). Even on laptop and desktop machines Linux is gaining momentum (but is still far behind Microsoft), but that market is getting smaller and smaller. So, my personal opinion is that the x86 dominanace is fading. Not Azure, not Microsoft as a whole, but the presence of its desktop operating system, as it seems to me, definitely is losing importance fast. I'd not be surprised if MS offers a linux window manager which emulates windows, so to speak.
  - bartvk 6y ago

brutus1213 6y ago

I bought the R10 late last year (before the new Ryzen chips were in stock) so ended up getting the AMD Ryzen 3700x. I was quite confused why Dell was even offering the single channel RAM option. The actual hardware Dell uses is a bit annoying. It seems even the GPU I got was a Dell specific version. The motherboard is also their custom chipset. I am fine with what I have but it is perplexing that Dell positions Alienware to be upgradable and makes it pretty difficult to do so (e.g. I made the mistake of not getting the system watercooled .. the steps required seem out of my hardware skill level). I'd also be keen to swap the Ryzen 3700 for the newer series chip .. but have no clue whether that is possible on that motherboard. Also, can I say AMDs numbering makes no sense to me personally.

66fm472tjy7 6y ago
> The motherboard is also their custom chipset It's a custom motherboard but not a custom chipset. The chipset comes from AMD. > I'd also be keen to swap the Ryzen 3700 for the newer series chip .. but have no clue whether that is possible on that motherboard If the chipset is A520, B550 or X570, you have Ryzen 5000 / Zen 3 support, though it probably requires a BIOS update. You might also have Zen 3 support on B450, B550A, X470 [0]. Check the BIOS release notes for your machine. > I made the mistake of not getting the system watercooled Most water cooled systems only water cool the CPU, which in your case (a 65W TDP CPU) is absurd. Good air coolers match the performance of twice as expensive AIOs [1] and have far less potential for breakage. > Also, can I say AMDs numbering makes no sense to me personally. The first digit is the generation. 1000 series -> Zen 1 architecture, 2000 series -> Zen+, 3000 series -> Zen 2, 5000 series -> zen 3. The higher the number after that, the better the CPU is within the generation (more cores/cache, higher frequency). [0] https://www.anandtech.com/show/15807/amd-to-support-zen-3-and-ryzen-4000-cpus-on-b450-and-x470-motherboards https://www.anandtech.com/show/15807/amd-to-support-zen-3-an... [1] https://youtu.be/23vjWtUpItk?t=482 https://youtu.be/23vjWtUpItk?t=482
- Jiejeing 6y ago
  > The first digit is the generation. 1000 series -> Zen 1 architecture, 2000 series -> Zen+, 3000 series -> Zen 2, 5000 series -> zen 3. The higher the number after that, the better the CPU is within the generation (more cores/cache, higher frequency). Except in APU territory, where nothing makes sense and cpus with the same first digit will be of different zen generations.

mangix 6y ago

I just saw an HP prebuilt with Ryzen and dual channel memory. Quite impressive for a prebuilt. Time to throw Alienware in the dumpster.

deleted 6y ago

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k__ 6y ago

What's the best Ryzen laptop on the market right now?

dvko 6y ago
I have a Lenovo Yoga Slim 7 with a Ryzen 4800U and love it. Running Linux on it, everything pretty much worked right out of the box.
basilgohar 6y ago
It's a good idea to wait because Ryzen 5000 mobile devices are starting to come out. The Asus Zephyrus has been getting accolades for it's design and performance, but if you're looking for thin-and-light or ultrabooks, the Zenbook (also Asus) is well regarded too. There are a slew of models out there. Lenovo usually has some good ones too but they lag a bit behind other OEMs in their offerings.
- pdimitar 6y ago
  Which exact Zenbook, do you have a link? I've struggled with Asus' website many times.

Farfignoggen 6y ago

Here's an interesting Litmus test: Go into any Staples regular brick and mortar Retail location and look at the Laptops on the showroom Floor and see if they have any AMD laptops on display there! And If they do not then ask the sales associate why. And I've asked and been told that they have AMD options but the AMD laptop has to be ordered online! So do that at Staples and other Office Stores that have brick and mortar retail locations!

CraftThatBlock 6y ago
This is likely due to low stock of AMD laptops in general (they sell like hot cakes). Once stock availability is improved, I would expect to see more in-store stock.
- Farfignoggen 6y ago
  No that's not the issue if Staples does not have any AMD laptops in it's brick and mortar store locations to begin with and only sells AMD laptops online. So that's the issue of not giving AMD's laptops any showroom floor retail presence and gives Intel an unfair advantage! Shoppers are much more likely to purchase directly from the showroom and with AMD's laptops Not stocked at all at the retailer's brick and mortar locations and only Intel's laptops in stock there and Intel's more than likely to get a retail brick and mortar store sale so really the Antitrust folks need to be made aware of this tactic! Staples has no display AMD models to speak of, stock of AMD laptops or not, and Display models are not sold until that model is no longer being sold by the retailer as they are display units! I was told that AMD laptops are only available Online from Staples! Staples is being incentivized it appears!
Match451 6y ago
I’ve been watching whether there are AMD laptops in retail stores for years. I’ve been pretty consistently disappointed. I’d estimate I saw about 10 Intel laptops for 1 AMD for sale. They typically only ever had lower tier stuff if anything at all. Usually the bottom tier APUs. None of the higher range processors that were competitive. It created an image that AMDs processors are only low range. The last time I went to Costco though, they had an HP Envy x360 with an AMD 4700u in it. There was maybe a 1 to 4 ratio of AMD to Intel machines. I think AMDs offerings are too good to ignore at this point.

Farfignoggen 6y ago

Intel Gets Sneaky "Despite losing considerable market share to AMD, Intel held on to a commanding lead by exerting its influence on computer manufacturers. Most famous was the “Intel Inside” co-branding program, in which Intel gave “market-development funds” to computer manufacturers if they highlighted the Intel brand on their products. But “Intel Inside” was not nearly as controversial as Intel’s practice of paying “loyalty rebates” to computer manufacturers for not using AMD chips. On the surface, Intel’s loyalty rebate programs appeared to be innocent volume or bundled discounts. Courts had struggled to apply section 2 of the Sherman Antitrust Act to the issue of bundled discounts, as it was hard to distinguish harmless discounts from loyalty rebates provided for the sole purpose of acquiring or maintaining monopoly power. But by taking into consideration the market conditions at the time and the nature of Intel’s relationship with the computer manufacturers, the monopolistic intent underlying Intel’s actions is noticeable. The commoditization of the PC market had severely impacted the profit margins of computer manufacturers, leaving their hopes of meeting quarterly earnings targets at the mercy of Intel’s loyalty rebates. In internal emails at major computer manufacturers, company executives were clearly distressed by the risk of losing such rebates, and most importantly, profitability, if they adopted AMD chips—or, as one Dell executive poignantly put it, Intel was “prepared for ‘jihad’ if Dell joins the AMD exodus.” Indeed, AMD’s biggest barrier in breaking 25% in overall x86 market share was its failure to court Dell, the biggest U.S. computer manufacturer. Dell was for a long time an exclusive Intel customer, but actually had been quite eager to use AMD’s chips. In an e-mail to Intel’s CEO in 2005, Michael Dell wrote, “None of the current benchmarks and reviews say that Intel based systems are better than AMD. We are losing the hearts, minds and wallets of our best customers.” Intel was quick to address Dell’s concerns. Intel’s CEO, Paul Otellini, replied, “[W]e are transferring over $1B per year to Dell for meet comp efforts. This [should be] more than sufficient to compensate for the competitive issues.” Soon after, Dell’s CEO Kevin Rollins announced that Dell had “made no plans to begin using” AMD chips, which Otellini described as “the best friend money can buy.” "(1) (1) [See Subheading: Intel Gets Sneaky] "Intel and the x86 Architecture: A Legal Perspective Written by Greg Tang January 04, 2011" http://jolt.law.harvard.edu/digest/intel-and-the-x86-architecture-a-legal-perspective http://jolt.law.harvard.edu/digest/intel-and-the-x86-archite...

lumost 6y ago

Given the supply issues and the challenges with most OEMs placing AMD products in inferior packages with subpar support. Wouldn't it make some amount of sense for AMD to focus on a preferred OEM who put their products in a premium package with dedicated focus? Right now it seems that most OEMs are hesitant to commit to the product line given supply issues.

mordae 6y ago
After many years of running AMD desktops I now own my very first AMD ThinkPad as well. I think they are slowly getting there.
- rahimnathwani 6y ago
  In October, I ordered an AMD Thinkpad from Lenovo's online store. It arrived in January.

varispeed 6y ago

Isn't the problem that companies have plenty of products with Intel chips that nobody wants and they just don't want to go bankrupt so they use different tactics to manipulate consumer into buying such product? I am looking for a laptop with the new Ryzen and it is very difficult. It seems like companies do their best to make it hard to find any of their product with AMD inside and Intel is all over the place. I am not sure if they realise how this damages their image? Why a consumer would buy a machine with reheated vintage Intel CPU that is already obsolete when it leaves the store new?

stevehawk 6y ago
the problem is.. it's intel.. and they've lost multiple court battles showing that they used illegal/protective contracts in the forms of rebates/discounts/kickbacks to block out AMD from the market. And this is likely a continuation of that. This isn't just Alienware pushing one over another, they're actively making one look bad / less attractive.

Rapzid 6y ago

I've been wanting a 5950x at MSRP since last December. This is the one time in recent history I'm not sure any of this really matters to AMD. They physically can't produce enough chips to meet demand. I'm even skeptical of any future damages this could cause by harming their brand image at this particular point in time; everybody wants AMD right now and this is further enhanced because "you can't have it".

mjevans 6y ago
I'd like a 5900x at MSRP because it's a good blend of single core and multicore performance. Though what I really want is a 6800XT GPU, since my current GPU is about 6 YEARS old. Dang crypto miner BS.

bitL 6y ago

AMD notebooks/systems usually come with less memory, storage and inferior GPUs, despite being faster than Intel. The thing that makes me most upset are inferior displays; often the top AMD model has some TN panel at 1920x1080, whereas top Intel model has an OLED 4k. This is criminal. I had to buy an Intel-based Razer with 4k@120 and 3080 because there is no similar AMD model provided by anyone. Like nobody in the whole world has a comparable AMD system.

exporectomy 6y ago
Maybe it's just market segmentation with better GPUs aimed at gamers and better CPUs aimed at "creators"? I think a lot of games won't fully use 16 cores but many creator-type applications use as many as available while not needing cutting edge graphics.
totalZero 6y ago
A 4K notebook display barely improves what your eyes see, at the cost of an enormous bump in power consumption. From an engineering perspective that's not a good tradeoff for battery life. This may be why they don't dominate the market. ASUS makes multiple AMD laptops with high resolution and/or high refresh rate. Not sure if any are 4K OLED 120Hz, but the fact that you chose a corner case display constraint that was only satisfied by Intel machines may be more a reflection of the constraint than a conspiracy. The vast majority of Intel models don't offer that option either. Also it's very easy to find IPS and VA laptops, but if you noticed a TN panel being offered for a gaming machine that's because it offers superior response time at the cost of contrast and color accuracy.
- caskstrength 6y ago
  > Several bones to pick with your post but the salient one is that a 4K notebook display barely improves what your eyes see, at the cost of an enormous bump in power consumption. No, it might barely improve what _you_ see, but for me the difference between screens on work laptop (FHD) and my personal X1C is enormous and immediately obvious.
  - 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

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PeterisP 6y ago

If they really don't want you to buy an AMD Ryzen PC for whatever reason, why would they go to all these shenanigans instead of simply increasing the price on Ryzen-based computers? That would be a win-win, they get the AMD sale reduction (no matter why they wanted that) and a larger margin.

yongjik 6y ago

So I searched for Alienware and arrived at: https://www.dell.com/en-us/gaming/alienware-desktops https://www.dell.com/en-us/gaming/alienware-desktops It proudly shows two desktops, one at the left, another at the right. The left one is Intel, the right one is AMD. Sure, some of the fine prints may suggest Intel is better (like saying "Up to RTX 3090" instead of 3080), but other fine prints suggest AMD is better (16 vs 8 cores). If Dell actually doesn't want me to buy AMD, they sure have a really roundabout way of saying it.

basilgohar 6y ago
The article lists several points (I believe at least 6) where the Intel system is either configured better than the AMD one or the language used indicates it's the "better" system. And these configuration changes are choices – like dual-channel RAM for Intel and single-channel for AMD.

GekkePrutser 6y ago

The not-shifting of the R10 number could also be because it's using the same motherboard, which is possible with AMD but not with Intel. However if they haven't redesigned the motherboard it would mean that they couldn't take advantage of PCIe 4.0 on the AMD which would be a problem in itself of course. I wonder if it's really pressure from intel that makes this bias happen by the way. Intel can hardy keep up with demand and performance right now, and many OEMs have already started AMD offerings, especially in the crucial business market. Additionally, regulators are more aware of these practices now.

rossdavidh 6y ago

While there is no question (it has been proven in court, IIRC) that Intel has used leverage to coerce computer makers into favoring their CPUs in the past, the fact is that currently AMD is selling all the chips they can make. So a less dramatic reading is "Alienware Wants To Convince Everyone Willing to Buy Intel To Do So, Because They Can Sell All Their AMD Systems Regardless".

walrus01 6y ago

> Alienware should hang its head in shame at the idea of charging people $3,400 — the minimum price for a Ryzen 9 5950X system — for a boutique PC stuck behind 16GB of single-channel memory without so much as a warning I used to work for an x86/x86-64 system manufacturer (primarily servers, but also high end workstations) some 15+ years ago. This is truly inexcusable and a sad reflection on how the consumer facing side of the industry really hasn't changed in the past 15-20 years. I saw competitors doing exactly the same sort of thing, selling things to end users who had more money than technical acumen or common sense. And people wonder why the serious enthusiast crowd still prefers to build their own PCs in the year 2021...

GordonS 6y ago
I'm in the market for a new laptop just now, and there aren't many options with more than 16GB RAM - I don't understand why it's so difficult!

Animats 6y ago

Not only that, the AMD Ryzen will support ECC memory, while Intel will not. (Now if only you could get ECC memory for the additional 15% it actually costs.)

sitkack 6y ago

Lump in Lenovo with this practice, canceled SKUs, configurations that are only available for intel making AMD versions at a large disadvantage