22 ms·
RMS addresses the free software community
- ashtonkem 5y agoI really have no idea why anyone wants to keep RMS in charge of the FSF based on his work product alone. What has the FSF been doing other than slowly sliding into irrelevancy over the past 20 years?
- rantwasp 5y agoyet here we are arguing about the FSF. Why do people care if it’s irrelevant?
- anaerobicover 5y agoGranted that on the internet, people argue for fun. But in meatspace, people usually argue about things that they think art important and should be different. So in this case, parent seems to me to be saying "the downslide of the FSF is bad, and we should fix it, and I think RMS does not help fix it". Or, "it's not irrelevant yet, and shouldn't be, but RMS is making it so".
- ashtonkem 5y agoThese are accurate summaries of the point I was trying to make.
- prepend 5y agoGPLv3 came out in 2007 so that’s less than 20 years. They also sue people [0] who break the license, so that’s good. I’m not sure how relevant FSF is supposed to be. They seem more relevant than ever, but aren’t a huge deal. They just run GPL and promote open source. And they’re one of many groups. So it’s ok, I think, to just do your thing and not blow up and be huge. They are small ($1M annual budget [1] and 14 staff) and think that’s ok when compared to stuff like Mozilla where their CEO makes more than the entire FSF budget. The ROI from FSF compared to Mozilla seems really good and impactful. Also, RMS isn’t “in charge” he’s on a board that includes four other people. [0] https://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2016/fall/the-role-of-lawsuits-in-gpl-compliance https://www.fsf.org/bulletin/2016/fall/the-role-of-lawsuits-... [1] 1.4M in 2017 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software_Foundation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Software_Foundation
- ashtonkem 5y ago> GPLv3 came out in 2007 so that’s less than 20 years. One would hope that he'd have an achievement at least once a decade. > They also sue people [0] who break the license, so that’s good. That's nice. No need to keep engineers around if they're just going to maintain a license then. Fire everyone and hire lawyers. > I’m not sure how relevant FSF is supposed to be. Very, I imagine. Very few organizations want to be small. Given that copyleft licenses are losing badly to more permissive licenses, I imagine that they'd prefer to be bigger and more effective. > They are small ($1M annual budget [1] and 14 staff) and think that’s ok when compared to stuff like Mozilla where their CEO makes more than the entire FSF budget. The ROI from FSF compared to Mozilla seems really good and impactful. I'd argue the opposite. Mozilla, for all of its faults, is actually trying to get open source and privacy respecting software into the hands of end users who aren't inherently ideological about this stuff. We can debate endlessly about their tactics and results, but in this decade at least they're massively more effective and important than the FSF. I'd argue that the FSF is small in terms of staff and budget because the leadership has failed.
- prepend 5y agoYou can argue whatever you like. You stated “slowly sliding into irrelevancy over the past 20 years” and you were clearly wrong. When I pointed out a few items they do to disprove your timeframe, you moved the goalposts and made statements as if the examples I gave were the only things FSF did. You made an easy statement to disprove, I disproved it. Feel free to research FSF and learn about what they do. You’ll certainly find examples of their impact “this decade.” I won’t look them up for you as I fear you’d then want examples from this femtosecond.
- ggoo 5y agogood on him.
- froh 5y agoa companion to the "Statement of FSF board on election of Richard Stallman" one minute later https://www.fsf.org/news/statement-of-fsf-board-on-election-of-richard-stallman https://www.fsf.org/news/statement-of-fsf-board-on-election-...
- narag 5y agoThis bit is pure genius: He has sincere regrets, especially at how anger toward him personally has negatively impacted the reputation and mission of FSF.
- throwawaysea 5y agoRMS doesn’t have to throw in an obligatory attack on Epstein to defend Professor Minsky. It’s just not necessary. Don’t apologize to the mob or cave in to their demands. They will pounce on weakness. They’ll say this message doesn’t go far enough. They’ll say it is evidence you knew you were wrong. And at the end of it you’ll be left feeling like you were dishonest with yourself and spineless for giving in at all. We’ve seen this play out over and over, most recently with Winston Marshall of the band Mumford and Sons, who initially praised the book “Unmasked” by Andy Ngo (exposing crimes of antifa groups), then was mobbed online by activists, then deleted his tweet, posted a spineless apology, and was kicked out of the band (https://thepostmillennial.com/canceled-mumford-and-sons-guitarist-leaves-band-after-antifa-mobbing-and-struggle-session-over-his-endorsement-of-andy-ngos-book https://thepostmillennial.com/canceled-mumford-and-sons-guit...).
- devilduck 5y agoKeep defending shitty people. I'm sure that justice will be served and you will get to pat yourself on the back for being Right. "I've been saying for years" and so forth.
- caslon 5y agoHe already had attacked Epstein, long before any of the controversy either time had occurred. He's not caving to a mob by doing so.
- b215826 5y agoIndeed. RMS has discussed the Epstein case in his notes muliple times before Selam G.'s fabricated hit piece, e.g., from April 2019 [1] > I think the right term for a person such as Epstein is "serial rapist". [1]: https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-jan-apr.html#25_April_2019_(Plea_deal_for_Epstein) https://www.stallman.org/archives/2019-jan-apr.html#25_April...
- faeriechangling 5y agoEmphasizing a belief he already publicly expressed isn't caving to a mob.
- Zelphyr 5y agoI really hope this will be sufficient to let this whole situation rest. The right thing to do is to accept his apology while holding him accountable for his commitment to be better in the future.
- loloquwowndueo 5y agoWhich apology? He’s only apologizing once quickly for losing his temper (Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid it. Some people could cope with this; others were hurt. I apologize to each of them.) and spends a whole lot of time explaining why he is different and we should all put up with his social ineptitude because he didn’t know better. That does not constitute an apology. We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too.
- luckylion 5y ago> We the socially inept can and do learn to adapt. He’s a clever man, he can do it too. This is such a weird concept to me. I have no problems getting social cues, it comes natural to me. Doing it purely intellectually? I wouldn't have a fucking idea how to. I think it's similar to doing pretty lame things like walking. It's a complex task that you can only do because you do it automatically. If we had a pill that would simply remove your muscle memory, you couldn't walk. "Just do it consciously, lol" doesn't work, I think.
- ocdtrekkie 5y agoIt's a thing those of us on the spectrum have a bit of a challenge with. Whether people on the autism spectrum are high-functioning or not, probably the top question is "are you mad?" because it is often hard to tell. However, I don't feel autism should be used as an excuse for bad behavior. I take responsibility for my actions and words, and so should RMS.
- kitsune_ 5y agoI think one of the problems is that he speculates about being on the autism spectrum but it looks like he never bothered to get a diagnosis, which then to me also means that he probably is not receiving potentially helpful advice that could improve his interactions with neurotypical people.
- jMyles 5y agoSeems reasonable to me, though I am among the crowd who didn't read his initial statement as anything resembling a defense of Epstein.
- curiousgal 5y agoIt irks me to a great extent how you cannot debate certain topics without immediately being labelled as an apologist or a supporter. Nuance no longer exists.
- devilduck 5y agoIt does it's just that people falsely equate "playing devil's advocate" as nuance, when it's not, at all.
- sneak 5y agoNuance never existed for those who see the world in black and white. Fortunately, most of us aren't in that category.
- luckylion 5y agoYou can debate them, just not with everyone. Chatham House Rules should be applied to all discussions as well, and it's probably wise to shun those who don't want to follow those.
- DanBC 5y agoMost people didn't read it as a defence of Epstein, but (as RMS says) as a defence of Minsky. It's that defence of Minsky that's a huge problem.
- javagram 5y agoAll the evidence we have public is that Minsky was innocent. He wasn’t even accused of doing anything bad. The victim stated Epstein asked her to proposition Minsky, but she did not say he accepted. Stallman’s defense was a hypothetical that probably would have been very similar to a courtroom defense of Minsky, that said since Minsky is both dead and not actually accused of the crime, no such courtroom scene would ever take place.
- gamache 5y agoThis will definitely clear things up.
- b215826 5y agoNow, would the journalists who wrote articles with titles that are a variation of "RMS defended Epstein" [1,2] apologize or at least correct their articles? Also, now that RMS has explicitly clarified his position on these issues, can the people who leveraged his "silence" and "bad behavior" to oust him from the FSF at least admit that their motive was less about making the free-software movement welcoming and was more about getting rid of RMS? [1]: https://www.thedailybeast.com/famed-mit-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-defends-epstein-victims-were-entirely-willing https://www.thedailybeast.com/famed-mit-computer-scientist-r... [2]: https://www.vice.com/en/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scientist-richard-stallman-described-epstein-victims-as-entirely-willing https://www.vice.com/en/article/9ke3ke/famed-computer-scient...
- mathgorges 5y agoThanks for posting these. I was out of the loop on this and tracking down the reporting to which RMS is replying was proving more difficult than expected.
- teddyh 5y ago> I was out of the loop on this Summary: https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/ https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
- whatshisface 5y agoI'd be surprised if we saw retractions, especially retractions reaching everyone who saw the original claims, but maybe Vice could write a piece attacking the daily beast article while the daily beast writes an article attacking the Vice one.
- b215826 5y agoYes, "Famed <rival publication> writes ableist insensitive articles with fabricated lies about an aspie."
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- DanBC 5y ago> Some have described me as being "tone-deaf," and that is fair. With my difficulty in understanding social cues, that tends to happen. For instance, I defended Professor Minsky on an M.I.T. mailing list after someone leaped to the conclusion that he was just guilty as Jeffrey Epstein. To my surprise, some thought my message defended Epstein. As I had stated previously, Epstein is a serial rapist, and rapists should be punished. I wish for his victims and those harmed by him to receive justice. > False accusations -- real or imaginary, against me or against others -- especially anger me. I knew Minsky only distantly, but seeing him unjustly accused made me spring to his defense. People aren't saying he's "just as guilty" as Epstein. They are saying that: Minsky (71) had sex with a 17 year old who had been trafficked and coerced, in 2001. This was several years after (1999) rumours started spreading about "pedophile island". In many places this makes Minsky a rapist, whether or not he knew i) she was trafficked or ii) she was coerced or iii) her age.
- joana035 5y agoDidn't Minsky rejected her proposal to have sex?
- edoceo 5y agoUnknown. Wikipedia says > Virginia Giuffre testified in a 2015 deposition in her defamation lawsuit against Epstein associate Ghislaine Maxwell that Maxwell directed her to have sex with Minsky among others. There has been no allegation that sex between them took place nor a lawsuit against Minsky's estate
- secondcoming 5y agoI don't recall it ever having been proven that Minksy had sex with anyone. I'm obviously open to being corrected on this.
- robinsoh 5y ago> I don't recall it ever having been proven that Minksy had sex with anyone. I'm obviously open to being corrected on this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Minsky " The Minskytron or "Three Position Display" running on the Computer History Museum's PDP-1, 2007 In 1952, Minsky married pediatrician Gloria Rudisch; together they had three children" I am assuming it was through sex.
- heinrichhartman 5y agoI think message is genuine, and sympathize with his stand. His work on free software has been invaluable and shaped the software world in a good way. To paint the whole person as a "bad guy" ("terrible person") in the context of the latest developments always seemed off to me. However, usually apologies in this context backfire. Everything that you say about this can and will be used against you. This has happened to various people before, who (I believe) have been well-meaning but offended the wrong people. I sincerely hope the best for him, but I don't expect this apology/elaboration will help him.
- whatshisface 5y ago>However, usually apologies in this context backfire. As pointed out by other commenters, this is more of a defense, or an explanation, than it is an apology.
- Sharlin 5y agoSo technically it is an apology but in the other sense of the word :)
- singlow 5y agoA defense is not the most common definition of apology in modern usage, but it is the most historical meaning of the word, and most aligned with its Greek etymology. This letter is very much a hybrid of both a defense and a mea culpa, the two modern usages of apology. He acknowledges some shortcomings which were partially responsible for him being criticized, but also explicitly rejects the accusations that he believes were unfounded.
- sneak 5y agorms has a long history of what today qualifies as sexual harassment, independent of his current controversy surrounding the Minsky/Epstein mailing list posts. He's also a bad leader (a drama llama that causes misunderstandings and controversies at every turn) regardless of his extremely controversial views on things like pedophilia, the definition of "sexual assault", Epstein's victims, et c.
- Zelphyr 5y agoUnrelated but, I'm curious: how does RMS pay the bills? The FSF board seat is a volunteer position and he no longer works for MIT. Is he paid as a consultant or something?
- tjr 5y agoHe has both earned (as a software consultant) and been awarded fairly large sums of money in the past, and has purposefully lived inexpensively. Not sure if he presently has any income or not. As far as I know, neither the FSF nor MIT paid him since the early 1980's.
- javagram 5y agoHe has given paid talks for the last decade or two I believe. Considering he was sleeping on a mattress in a MIT office, hopefully he saved a good portion of that in a bank account. He will also be eligible for social security and Medicare at his age, assuming he had enough working years in the social security system to qualify.
- amelius 5y agoIt's kind of sad given that probably all the FAANG companies wouldn't exist (yet) if it wasn't for his work.
- madpata 5y agoYou make it sound like only RMS' contributions were significant for our current state of software. There are a lot of people with significant contributions without which the world wouldn't be in its current state.
- amelius 5y agoYes, but RMS seems to be at the root of it all. For example, Linux depends on gcc and binutils and other GNU software, and many other software does.
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- icha 5y agoWell, good for him. Hope this nonsensical witch hunt will naturally wither away.
- jan46 5y agoRMS really stays behind what he says. I'm very glad he is around!
- sneak 5y agoI'm glad he's around, too, and I hope he keeps writing his intelligent and completely tone-deaf rants on his own website. I really hope they get him out of FSF leadership ASAP. The damage he does to the free software movement is incalculable.
- ebcode 5y ago> The damage he does to the free software movement is incalculable. That's like saying the damage George Lucas has done to Star Wars is incalculable. Without George Lucas, there is no Star Wars. Did he fuck it up? Absolutely. Is the world a better place with Star Wars in it? I think so. We're not going to change these old-timers. That's what makes them old-timers. We're only going to become old-timers ourselves someday (if we're lucky). Probably best to exercise as much compassion for them as we can, and hope the future returns the favor when our time comes.
- ziml77 5y agoShort and to the point. I like an apology that doesn't read like an essay. The more they ramble on the less genuine they feel. (I still don't believe this apology should have been considered necessary though)
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- rbanffy 5y agoIt reads as a non-apology. It reads as "I'm sorry my own ways made you feel offended". The right thing to do would be to say "I'm sorry my actions offended you and I will not do that anymore". It'd have been that easy, really. He just doesn't seem to understand that on any level.
- wavefunction 5y agoHe certainly doesn't sound like he intends to change or work to change.
- vidarh 5y agoThat is an odd take on a message that stresses how he has changed in the past and how he hopes to change from this as well.
- rbanffy 5y agoDo we have any concrete evidence he has changed enough to be a viable front figure for the Free Software Movement?
- d_tr 5y agoI believe him, you might not. In that case you might want to give him a chance, because you are a decent person, especially since he has been through a lot the last 18 months, and a lot of it was unjust.
- AdmiralAsshat 5y agoIt's good that he acknowledges his comments hurt people. It's good that he is pledging to do better. I think as far as apologies go, this one ticks most of the boxes as far as admitting personal fault and not using weasel-words to blame the victims or apologize "if you were offended." With all that said, I don't think this is going to bring any of the lost sponsors back.
- pseudalopex 5y agoIt's less a pledge to do better and more an assertion he puts adequate effort into improving already.
- sheepdestroyer 5y agoThe constant mischaracterization of what he really meant, by reposting the same misquotes of his emails, was really shameful for a lot of 'journalists'.
- Jon_Lowtek 5y agoSadly in recent years a new generation of "activist journalism" has taken hold that favor stories over facts
- rubyist5eva 5y agoFree Software would not exist without RMS - and cancel culture will destroy the movement without him. If they can take down RMS, there is no stopping them. As far as the cancel mobs are concerned, you can keep me out of the Free Software community if you don't want me. You can call me a racist, a nazi, a transphobe or whatever other slur you can think of for having a different or controversial opinion. That is your prerogative - but you cannot stop me from using Free Software, so that part of it cannot die and there is nothing you can do to cancel that. So while I cannot participate in the movemement, I can still participate and reap the benefits of free software - so you can hate me and cancel me but you can't stop me from benefiting from the fruits of your labour. Eventually you will run out of people to label, your ideology consumes and destroys itself. That makes me smile, just a bit.
- stusmall 5y ago"Later in life, I discovered that some people had negative reactions to my behavior, which I did not even know about. Tending to be direct and honest with my thoughts, I sometimes made others uncomfortable or even offended them -- especially women. This was not a choice: I didn't understand the problem enough to know which choices there were. Sometimes I lost my temper because I didn't have the social skills to avoid it. Some people could cope with this; others were hurt. I apologize to each of them. Please direct your criticism at me, not at the Free Software Foundation." This is such a great argument for why he shouldn't be in a leadership position. These social skills are crucial in this role.
- whatshisface 5y ago>These social skills are crucial in this role. For better or worse, a huge number of very successful leaders have had problems with losing their temper. Not that we should idolize poor anger control, of course.
- henearkr 5y ago>These social skills are crucial in this role. Absolutely not. He is a theorist (if not the theorist) of Free Software. His role is paramount, he is literally the only human completely implacable regarding the degrees of freedom that should be guaranteed to algorithms and software. The whole movement he started has as well spurred the Creative Commons movement, that is an application to the same principles more specifically to art.
- imwillofficial 5y agoSo unwanted sexual advances on women or ok for theorists?
- thewakalix 5y agoYes, anyone is morally allowed to hit on anyone[1], even though chances are it won’t be reciprocated. Of course, going too far without consent[2] is wrong. But merely initiating, and then listening, is not. [1] Pedantry: as long as they’d be morally allowed to continue with consent. Pedophilia being wrong implies that hitting on children is wrong, for example. [2] Note that it is possible to preemptively withdraw consent. Hitting on someone who previously said “don’t hit on me,” but hasn’t said it to you yet, is still wrong.
- pieter_mj 5y agoExtremely well put statements by RMS and FSF. Clearly, RMS has many true leadership capacities and is absolutely devoid of any corruptability. I'm wondering if this last talent does actually require being on the spectrum, as he admits to in his first paragraphs.
- Osmose 5y agoThe Minsky defense was not the primary, most important reason RMS can't serve as an effective, inclusive leader for free software, it was just the one that got the most attention. This does nothing to address the numerous complaints of harassment towards MIT students, the _other_ times he spoke out in implicit support of pedophilia, the public gaffes that are unacceptable as a public representative (e.g. the foot skin eating thing), and the fact that the FSF under Stallman kinda lost to open source anyway and hasn't really done anything besides virtue signal to others about how pure and ethical they are.
- DiggyJohnson 5y agoSure, but does any of that keep you from empathizing with the content of this letter?
- imwillofficial 5y agoYes
- Osmose 5y agoYeah, it does. In context, this letter, especially given it's posted to the FSF site and not, say, his personal website, is meant to justify electing him to the board and address the backlash against it, and I don't really have much patience for a letter addressing only one of the many complaints people have against allowing him a leadership role. It's dismissive of them.
- solosoyokaze 5y agoHe even continues to defend Minsky in this letter. It's not even an apology, it's just more of the same.
- Ancapistani 5y ago> He even continues to defend Minsky in this letter. Honest question - is there a way in which someone could not immediately condemn Minsky without defending him?
- mplewis 5y agoThis is not an apology.
- howeyc 5y agoThat's because having opinions is not something to apologize for.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- philpem 5y agoIf your "opinions" hurt people then yes, that is something to apologise for.
- durovo 5y agoThis opinion hurts me. Will you apologize now? EDIT: My phrasing was a bit too aggressive. But I believe that this opinion that people should always apologize if their opinions offend anyone is absurd. People should have the right to be offended. Being offended does not mean that you deserve an apology.
- Udik 5y agoNot at all. If your opinions are correct, and yet they hurt someone, do you need to apologise? Or maybe you think that it's impossible for a correct or reasonable opinion to hurt others? Because in that case I have tons of counterexamples. A lot of people were offended by the theory that man descended from apes. Do you think Darwin should have apologised?
- prepend 5y agoI think it depends on what the opinions are. I used to be a vegetarian and had friends who would be upset and hurt when people ate meat. I don’t think meat eaters should apologize. There’s lots of situations where someone says something reasonable, and someone gets upset and no apology is necessary. Your claim that absolutely if opinions hurt people then the opinion haver should apologize , is wrong I think. And will lead to less discussion and a net negative to society.
- deft 5y agoPeople in the comments still demanding this isn't enough and calling for his expulsion... just why? At this point you've lost. Your social justice crusade has been defeated and cooler, wiser heads have prevailed. It's actually embarrassing seeing people rush in here screeching STILL.
- kache_ 5y agoSo what will mozilla say now? Are they proud of essentially bullying a man who has a disability?
- visarga 5y agoApparently, in (class/identity) wars there are no innocents, personal circumstances don't matter, what matters is to support your ideology by any means. Like good little soldiers, they should execute and not think, they are not allowed to have original ideas. When they become too original they instantly are labelled heretics and cancelled. So they can't stop and look at circumstances when the purity spiral is crushing on their heads.
- d_tr 5y agoThey did not even only bully him for his actual flaws, but for stuff he is not even guilty of too...
- thinkingemote 5y agoMozilla will of course follow their own code of conduct and those of the organisations they belong to. (Except when they are part of the mob)
- Jan454 5y agoThe good side of this witch-hunt is that the bad and the ugly revealed themselves. E.g. RedHat or Mozilla stopped their support to the fsf[1] with this hunt as scapegoat. .. really sad for RedHat though .. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2021/03/26/redhat_fsf_funding_richard_stallman/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/03/26/redhat_fsf_funding_ri...
- joana035 5y agoDo you mean IBM? :-D
- ldargin 5y agoRMS' letter is good; it settles my concerns about him. I can't say that keeping him in the board is good for the FSF, but oh well...
- conradev 5y agoI wonder if RMS wrote apology emails to the individuals that he hurt: > I sometimes made others uncomfortable or even offended them -- especially women. If not, someone might need to explain to him that that too is customary in our society.
- sigg3 5y agoI don't think he will, because he's not apologizing for what he's done, he's apologizing for not realizing others would think it was wrong.
- mariusor 5y agoReading this breaks my heart a little. Having the humility to bow to the people that harassed him and the FSF is a gesture I wasn't really expecting from him. However it's refreshing to see that people that are consistently seen as abrasive and negative, can introspect, even due to external circumstances, and try to correct their behaviour so late in life. I feel like online we need to try to empathize a lot more with others that don't match the well established "disadvantaged" categories instead of piling on the negativity.
- chousuke 5y agoI think it would be fairer to say that RMS needs to introspect, because the way his brain works, all those little things which seem to be automatic for other people require constant conscious effort. I sometimes feel the same way; that in order to not cause disruption in social situations, I need to engage my conscious brain at 100% and monitor my actions (and other people's) because if I don't, I might communicate something in a way that another person will misinterpret and which then leads to trouble. If I act abrasive or negative, it is not by choice.
- reducesuffering 5y ago> "I sometimes feel the same way; that in order to not cause disruption in social situations, I need to engage my conscious brain at 100% and monitor my actions (and other people's) because if I don't, I might communicate something in a way that another person will misinterpret and which then leads to trouble." You can relax a bit. Because what you're missing is that 75% of people just don't even think of being careful like this and are fine with frequently coming across poorly to other people. You're just introspecting more and being polite, as I think is usually better and respectful.
- imwillofficial 5y agoRMS is a statutory rape apologist, and a defender of a pedophile. As well as making young women creeped out with unwanted advances. Is this who we want to glorify?
- TheRealDunkirk 5y ago> RMS is a statutory rape apologist, and a defender of a pedophile. Wasn't the entire point of his post to refute this interpretation of what happened? Does no one else notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
- visarga 5y agoNo, it's what ideology does to people. It makes us value abstract ideas over real persons. It's all based on ideas of purity and that impure people are somehow deserving of cancellation. If you side with "impure" persons, or even if you don't condemn them strongly enough, you're becoming impure yourself, that is their logic. And for all this interest in purity they don't actually care about the people, their work, their aspirations, only that they obey the ideology.
- imwillofficial 5y agoYes, it is 100% idiology. I think pushing the idea that sex with minors is ok, is morally wrong. I think defending those who victimize others is morally wrong. I think victimizing students that you have influence over with poorly thought out advances is morally wrong. This is my moral opinion on the subject. Infinitely subjective.
- visarga 5y agoYou think and you act by taking part in the cancellation game where you got nothing to lose and only to win by pushing others down. How about we judge a person by the totality of his work and actions, not just those which play well in the "game"?
- jancsika 5y agoThat's great, but the problem seems to be RMS's disruption of development activities. This doesn't change that. For example: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-01/msg00187.html https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-01/msg00... Imagine taking the time to publicly explain to an out-of-practice dev why some technical feature is needed, then being accused of a "pressure campaign" that requires the out-of-practice dev to consult privately, "with people I have confidence in." Gnu devs have an impressive amount of patience and grace to put up with that. But I see a lot of other FOSS devs try to replicate RMS's unnecessarily aggressive rhetoric. They often shoot themselves in the foot with it, disrespecting and consequently losing valuable contributors who are otherwise aligned philosophically with the project in every way. That kind of disruption is at odds with every value FOSS devs claim to hold-- meritocratic, decentralized, etc. Even Debian put the hammer down when an out-of-practice dev tried to use permissions to disrupt the work of a new dev. Nobody sane and self-respecting should put up with this kind of behavior. Edit: clarification
- mhh__ 5y agoSomeone I know who works on pretty much singlehandedly on something that is on the frontpage of GCC said that he entered Stallman's bad books the moment he found out he had children. GCC plugins were a stallman thing, LLVM was even offered to the FSF at one point IIRC. Is there anything competent he has done post-2000 or so?
- b215826 5y ago> Is there anything competent he has done post-2000 or so? While you may not care about it, GPLv3.
- geofft 5y agoThat was sort of the opposite of competent: - Because it was a new license, it necessarily resulted in license fragmentation, which is an ongoing headache for the free software community. It's worth doing if there's a serious need that outweighs the costs and you can guide the community towards dropping the old license, but.... - The Linux kernel had always been GPLv2 only and remained GPLv2-only, which meant that the most interesting GPL-licensed code on TiVos and similar devices was not subject to GPLv3. - Embedded devices like TiVos generally want a small userspace. The most popular choice was Busybox, which announced that it was GPLv2-only. - Also, Busybox turned out to be a reasonably straightforward product to replace, which hurt the ongoing aims of GPL enforcement - including regular old GPLv2 enforcement about simply getting source code at all: https://lwn.net/Articles/478249/ https://lwn.net/Articles/478249/ - The FSF moved its own projects to GPLv3 only, but that scared the largest surviving commercial UNIX vendor (Apple) enough that they remained on GPLv2-only versions, and eventually started sponsoring the development of permissively-licensed competitors to even reasonably difficult products to replace, such as LLVM and its ecosystem (lldb etc.) instead of GCC and its ecosystem, which are now technically on par with GCC, if not much more advanced. (Historically, one of the FSF's biggest successes at making inroads in the proprietary software world was getting Steve Jobs to use GCC and release the Objective-C frontend for it!) - Because the FSF couldn't guide enough other major projects towards GPLv3-only, many brand-new GPL'd software projects continue to use "GPLv2 or later" to this day to work around license fragmentation (i.e. so they can share code with other GPLv2+ projects), meaning any additional strictness of GPLv3 is irrelevant in enforcement. - Of the major issues around software freedom and digital autonomy today, approximately zero of them are TiVoization - and, as described above, that's not because GPLv3 was wildly successful in combating the threat, it's because it turned out not to be that pressing of a problem. There is basically no leverage in GPLv3. Just about everything you'd want to do with free software today, you can do with GPLv2 or permissively-licensed works.
- AzzieElbab 5y agoReads like - I can’t pass your compliance litmus tests and neither can I keep quiet. Please leave me alone
- zajio1am 5y agoIt is fascinating to me how humane and sincere his statement is (compared to empty phrases of corporate leaders and predictable rhetoric of culture warriors), considering his putative issues with tone-deafness and social clues.
- sthomas1618 5y agoNote to others: Try not to defend yourself in an apology. Otherwise it ceases to become an apology, and instead becomes a list of reasons why there should be no accountability.
- rbanffy 5y agoIt kind of misses the point it was never just about Minsky and Epstein. > I sometimes made others uncomfortable or even offended them -- especially women. This was not a choice: I didn't understand the problem enough to know which choices there were. Did anyone explain him that he downplayed the role of women in the GNU project? Janis Johnson, Sandra Loosemore, and Dorit Nuzman, to name a few, all did extraordinary work. Did he ever correct his statements about no women volunteering to work on GCC? Did he even read the author lists? Did anyone ever tell him the Emacs virgins thing is very inappropriate? I'm pretty sure someone must have done that and, if not, he must have read the account of one young girl about how she felt. The fact he did that routine for years indicates he didn't listen or didn't care enough to change. And no, it's not normal for adults to be sexually attracted to teens. I am very sure he now has been informed his behaviour is unacceptable. Is he doing anything to change that? That he doesn't have the innate wiring to recognise those subtle cues makes it more necessary for him to listen and take action on his behaviour because he is seen as the person behind the FSF and his actions and opinions reflect on the entire community. All these are clear indications he, and the FSF board, don't see any of these as problems and that, sadly, makes them unfit to lead the Free Software community.
- r3856283 5y ago> Did he ever correct his statements about no women volunteering to work on GCC? He wasn't aware of women working on GCC. There's nothing to correct. I'm not aware of women working on GCC. GNU has thousands of people working on it, he's not aware of most of them. So much criticism of him is taking his comments out of context and misrepresenting them, including so many things that are just complete fabrications that it makes it hard to actually understand what "real" problems there are. > Did anyone ever tell him the Emacs virgins thing is very inappropriate? Yes, and he agreed and stopped. > And no, it's not normal for adults to be sexually attracted to teens. K. You totally lost me there. Ever been to a porn website?
- prepend 5y ago> And no, it's not normal for adults to be sexually attracted to teens. As a father of daughters this stuff is really skeevy to me. But as for “normal,” society has a ways to improve. Remember that Britney Spears became super popular at 16 and 17 and had many fans who were not kids. The first time I saw “Hit Me Baby One More Time” I was in Best Buy and it was showing on the 100 TVs and I remember thinking “What the fuck is this, how old is that poor girl?” And the store, as typical for BestBuy, was full of like 99% adult males.
- bitwize 5y agoNo real accountability, no addressing the decades of bad behavior that drove people -- particularly women -- from free software in fear and disgust, no whiff of an attempt to substantively do better on the issues of inclusion and representation plaguing the movement. Just excuses and playing the autism card, which goes over about as well as it did for Christian Weston Chandler. Typical RMS. Judgement made. The FSF should remove Stallman from its board and publicly distance itself from him. Otherwise judgement will come for the FSF too. They've already lost the good will of Red Hat, which was the organization driving actual development of the Linux ecosystem. It's hard to run a foundation, or a movement, without money. Imagine if RMS lived to see the FSF go bankrupt, and its assets purchased by hostile corporations who then go on to make GCC and Emacs proprietary? They could do this because of the CLA they make contributors sign. A bitterly ironic end to a noble movement.
- kitsune_ 5y agoSo, with all the talk about RMS being on the autism spectrum in the last threads on this topic, with RMS speculating about it himself, and now this letter where he talks about his problems about interpreting social cues: To me this reads if he never bothered to get an official diagnosis? Since there is a lot of stigma that comes with neurodevelopmental disorders and mental health in general, I get that this is a highly private matter. That said, if it's the case that he truly suspects that he is on the autism spectrum but never bothered to get a diagnosis that would somewhat be a bad sign to me just on a general level, considering all the push back that he obviously got from people because of his behaviour.
- stonogo 5y agoIt's disgusting that the FSF not only snuck the return of RMS into the end of LibrePlanet without notifying anyone, drove out the wrongthinking staff before creating a staff position on the board, and now to cap it off are writing articles instructing people on how to react to these things. RMS is not a good leader. The FSF should pay him for his work on GPL and leave him off the board. The FSF should also stop writing instructions for other people on how to treat the FSF, and should instead focus on earning the response they want to see from their supporters.
- d_tr 5y agoYou have entirely missed the whole point of the situation, which has been going on for a while. Besides, this is about Stallman's own statement.
- stonogo 5y agoI don't know if you're trying to educate me, but you haven't. What would you say "the whole point" is here? And why bother pretending that Stallman's statement and the FSF's statement, issued thirty seconds later and containing many of the same instructions, should be considered separately, despite Stallman's statement not being issued on his own website, but that of the FSF?
- unsungNovelty 5y agoI'm gonna drop this again where ACLU's former president Nadine Strossen shares her view which is more sophisticated and thought through than mine is anyways - https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web
- Avamander 5y agoLeah Rowe's article might also be of interest: https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html https://libreboot.org/news/rms.html
- artificialLimbs 5y agoIt is great that RMS is trying to explore his emotional capacity and relate to others! Shocking in these comments how many people believe that people are not responsible for their own emotions. No one can "hurt another" emotionally. It is up to each person to take the mature (and logical) stance that "I am responsible for my emotions". If something someone does or says "hurts me" emotionally, it is because I have chosen to allow that emotion, or I have not sufficiently dealt with the circumstances that have caused it to arise such that I am unable to process it in a manner which does not put the responsibility for its arising on another. I'm not saying that if someone shoots your mother you shouldn't feel angry or sad, but that the anger or sadness is not CAUSED by another. It arises solely within you. You can see that this is true because people react wholly differently dependent upon the individual. It is within human capability to positively act from a place of clarity rather than negatively react from emotion. It seems clear from this short page that RMS understands this.
- wetmore 5y agoThis is like saying that when you shoot someone, it's the bullet that killed them, not you. Maybe it's technically true but it's not very useful, it's just pedantry used in an attempt to deny culpability.
- artificialLimbs 5y agoIt is not like saying that at all. The emotional world is connected with but is not exclusively the physical world. Putting the responsibility for one's emotional responses on another is the denying of culpability for one's self. I find it is useful to be wary of those who find it useful to point a finger and say 'he/she did this to me' when they become emotionally hurt or even happy, knowing they will non-usefully invariably want me to be nanny or projection target for their other emotions when they arise in whatever manifestation.
- davidcbc 5y agoPeople aren't robots, they are emotionally connected biological beings. Emotions are a biological response. You can't just 100% control your emotions any more than you can 100% control your thyroid.
- captaincurrie 5y agoRule #1: Don't ever apologize if you've done nothing wrong.
- chipotle_coyote 5y agoI think there's a lot of rhetoric that implicitly, or even explicitly, insists that there are easily defined bright lines here: "Say [thing X] and you should definitively be out, full stop" vs. "Anything you say or do 'off the clock' has no bearing on your work whatsoever, no way no how." I'm extremely doubtful those lines actually exist. Context matters, and in practice -- for both good and ill -- the social norms and mores of the time, place, and organizations in question are going to come into play, and it's just unrealistic to expect otherwise. And, sure, this is political in some real sense, but it's not just the politics of "the other side." A C-suite executive at Patagonia is likely to be not-so-politely asked to find other work if they start publicly pushing Trumpworld's stolen election propaganda; a C-suite executive at a Catholic hospital is going to face capital-Q Questions if it comes out that they've donated tens of thousands of dollars to Planned Parenthood. What you do "off the clock" matters to your employer if they feel it reflects badly on them. This is not some kind of brand new thing that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for those angry millennials with their twitters and their social justices. What's changed over time are the specifics of Things Perceived To Reflect Badly. With respect to RMS, there have been reports about his bad social behavior for decades. In the last few years, our attitudes toward harassing behavior has grown a lot less tolerant, and "Ha ha, that's just ol' creepy Bob, what are you gonna do, am I right" is no longer seen as a sufficient response. "Sure, Bob is a creep, but he's done such great work, so just suck it up, Buttercup" sends a message to prospective employees, customers, donors, sponsors, vendors, etc., that companies and organizations are increasingly deciding that they do not want to send. I understand that this sucks for the ol' creepy Bobs of the world, but is that really sufficient reason to default to taking Bob's side? The pro-RMS thread that runs through these comments[1] is, and I am only barely paraphrasing here, Stallman's contributions to the free software movement are so important they excuse his documented mistreatment of others for decades. In other words: be a big enough name in free software and you can get away with anything, baby. And maybe you're comfortable with that message. But I'm not at all sure you should be. [1] There is also a pro-RMS thread running through these comments which I can paraphrase as "but he was only hypothetically defending pedophilia and it's so dishonest of the media to present that as if it were weird and disturbing in any possible way," which, I mean, look. There's a reasonable discussion to be had about how "Think of the Children" has become the third rail of all internet discussions, but this ain't it, chief.
- prepend 5y ago> False accusations -- real or imaginary, against me or against others -- especially anger me. I feel similarly and wonder what this is called or how many others feel similarly. It’s curious to me as I try to solve problems and filter truth from false just in general everyday life so when someone says something that seems false it sticks out to me in my thoughts. I stopped trying to correct this as it seems most people aren’t very receptive, to say the least :) I’m not sure if people don’t care because being wrong isn’t the most important part, or they already know it’s false and don’t care. It’s fun learning about how different people see the world and I think it’s cool how many different people there are in the world and people have really different world views than I.
- anaerobicover 5y agoSpeaking as someone who shares this trait with you, you should know if you don't already: this is a characteristic of autistic brains. (Not to say that either you or I are definitely autistic.) The other people's brains put a higher weight on what you might call "agreeableness" (from the Big 5 personality traits) than on strict factual correctness. > I stopped trying to correct this as it seems most people aren’t very receptive, to say the least. Same; I have found it best to "keep my powder dry" so to speak, and have slowly, slowly learned to weigh my own sense of importance against various social values. I find it makes me more effective when it is indeed important.
- bigbillheck 5y agoPeople keep focusing on the Minsky thing, but if Stallman hadn't spent the last 40 years being a creep (the "emacs virgin" thing), being a creep ('tender embraces'), being abusive (the FSF unionized to protect themselves from him), being abusive (https://twitter.com/migueldeicaza/status/1174044770546659329 https://twitter.com/migueldeicaza/status/1174044770546659329), being abusive (https://twitter.com/mattblaze/status/1374460763910201350 https://twitter.com/mattblaze/status/1374460763910201350), being a jerk ("These birth announcements also spread the myth that having a baby is something to be proud of"), then he might have been able to weather the storm a little better. This isn't a 'oh, he said one thing one time about one person' situation, this is instead a lifetime of behavior that for anybody else would have had consequences long ago.
- kablp 5y agoSo de Icaza told an anecdote and got > 50 likes, but we never hear the other side. Why do some Twitter personalities always have first hand evidence while also writing software? Where do they find the time? At least we have Microsoft/Linux instead of GNU/Linux now. Perhaps RedHat and Debian (depending on the outcome of the GR) should rename that part.
- SuperSandro2000 5y agobut because work done in the past seems to be more important and can overshadow everything like nothing happened.
- torthrowaway998 5y ago>the "emacs virgin" thing He stopped doing it once people told him that it made others uncomfortable. >being a creep ('tender embraces') In the business cards that he gave out to people of any gender. This is not really a creepy thing to do. >being abusive (https://twitter.com/migueldeicaza/status/1174044770546659329 https://twitter.com/migueldeicaza/status/1174044770546659329) Miguel de Icaza is not a trustworthy person, especially due to the way that he betrayed the community. I am curious though, did he just sat there being passive-aggressive or did he tell rms to leave? Since nobody seems to have asked him about what actually happened I am going to. >https://twitter.com/mattblaze/status/1374460763910201350 https://twitter.com/mattblaze/status/1374460763910201350 I will also ask him about this because I am curious. >being a jerk ("These birth announcements also spread the myth that having a baby is something to be proud of"), Does not seem like a jerk thing to do. >This isn't a 'oh, he said one thing one time about one person' situation, this is instead a lifetime of behavior that for anybody else would have had consequences long ago. It would be great if the ones organizing harassment campaigns against him also agreed with you. So far they have been focusing on spreading lies about him (such as about epstein, the mattress, or his opinions) rather than actual repeated abuse by him after people expressed their dislike for it.
- selfishgene 5y agoBoth MIT and Harvard have admitted to helping Jeffrey Epstein avoid prosecution on federal racketeering charges for the sex-trafficking of minors after they were exposed by whistle-blowers at both of these institutions. I'm still not sure why people consider it appropriate to exclude someone like Stallman from serving on the Board of the FSF while continuing to allow Mr. Rafael Reif, for example, to remain president of MIT after sending a personally signed "thank-you note" to one of the most notorious alleged sex-traffickers and convicted child-rapists in US history: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstein-affair-president-rafael-reif-should-not-running-mit/C3weZQW2qtw6qbEgFkNFJO/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei... Nor would it be any more appropriate to allow Mr. Seth Lloyd back onto the MIT campus with just a slap on the wrist: https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op-ed https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op... Or Mr. Martin Nowak for that matter either: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctions-professor-with-close-jeffrey-epstein-ties-closes-program-he-ran/ https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio... This hacker news thread on Nowak is worth reading again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 So why has nobody drafted petitions to cancel Rafael "Thank You So Much Mr. Epstein -- And Don't Forget to Show My Letter to Federal Prosecutors" Reif, Benedict "Epstein is an Ideal Donor for Harvard" Gross, Alan "Dershbag" Dershowitz, Martin "Punishment Serves No Noble Purpose" Nowak, Steven "Using the Internet to Entice a Minor into Prostition is A-Okay" Pinker, Seth "So What If I Make Female Undergraduates at MIT Feel Uncomfortable "Lloyd, Neri "Epstein was Always a Reliable Supporter of Israel" Oxman, Frank "I Never Saw any Girls that were Underage" Wilczek, and all of the other pedophilia-tolerating two-faced phonies that attended EDGE Foundation dinners hosted by the convicted child rapist and/or visited him on "Pedophile Isle," where FBI reportedly found instruction manuals that Mr. Epstein had ordered on Amazon that describe how to create a so-called "sex slave," in addition to video tapes containing child pornography that he allegedly recorded using secret cameras that were installed throughout his various residences? Stallman blaming his "being on the spectrum" for all of the troubling statements cataloged on the website cited below may not entirely excuse Mr. Stallman for making them since there is no evidence that someone on the spectrum is more likely than the general population to hold similar views on child rape: https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman But the most important question today that Mr. Stallman needs to address directly, because many of his critics on this issue continue to hold him in the highest regard for his role in advancing the free software movement, is a very frank one: Were his remarks in support of pedophilia designed to persuade Mr. Epstein to donate part of his $500 million estate to the Free Software Foundation, much like he observed role-models such as MIT president Rafael Reif do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Reif sent Mr. Epstein a personally signed thank-you note for his donation to the Media Lab, or colleagues like Martin Nowak do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Nowak created a web page on a university website and an office in his department for a convicted child-rapist in exchange for tens of millions of dollars in donations that were promised to his academic program at Harvard and hundreds of millions of dollars in donations, often laundered through Epstein's fellow billionaire pedophile friends like Les Wexner, Glenn Dubin, and Leon Black, to Harvard University, where Mr. Nowak is a professor? I'm not entirely convinced by the naysayers on this one yet, but Stallman is most deserving of forgiveness thus far, and not because of his autism, but rather because of all of his contributions to free software in spite of it. Some of the other dogs cited above deserve to spend time in the same jail cell where Epstein killed himself because he was too much of a coward to stand trial for all of the crimes that he knew he had committed.
- selfishgene 5y agoBoth MIT and Harvard have admitted to helping Jeffrey Epstein avoid prosecution on federal racketeering charges for the sex-trafficking of minors after they were exposed by whistle-blowers at both of these institutions. I'm still not sure why people consider it appropriate to exclude someone like Stallman from serving on the Board of the FSF while continuing to allow Mr. Rafael Reif, for example, to remain president of MIT after sending a personally signed "thank-you note" to one of the most notorious alleged sex-traffickers and convicted child-rapists in US history: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei... Nor would it be any more appropriate to allow Mr. Seth Lloyd back onto the MIT campus with just a slap on the wrist: https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op... Or Mr. Martin Nowak for that matter either: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio... This hacker news thread on Nowak is worth reading again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 So why has nobody drafted petitions to cancel Rafael "Thank You So Much Mr. Epstein -- And Don't Forget to Show My Letter to Federal Prosecutors" Reif, Benedict "Epstein is an Ideal Donor for Harvard" Gross, Alan "Dershbag" Dershowitz, Martin "Punishment Serves No Noble Purpose" Nowak, Steven "Using the Internet to Entice a Minor into Prostition is A-Okay" Pinker, Seth "So What If I Make Female Undergraduates at MIT Feel Uncomfortable "Lloyd, Neri "Epstein was Always a Reliable Supporter of Israel" Oxman, Frank "I Never Saw any Girls that were Underage" Wilczek, and all of the other pedophilia-tolerating two-faced phonies that attended EDGE Foundation dinners hosted by the convicted child rapist and/or visited him on "Pedophile Isle," where FBI reportedly found instruction manuals that Mr. Epstein had ordered on Amazon that describe how to create a so-called "sex slave," in addition to video tapes containing child pornography that he allegedly recorded using secret cameras that were installed throughout his various residences? Stallman blaming his "being on the spectrum" for all of the troubling statements cataloged on the website cited below may not entirely excuse Mr. Stallman for making them since there is no evidence that someone on the spectrum is more likely than the general population to hold similar views on child rape: https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman But the most important question today that Mr. Stallman needs to address directly, because many of his critics on this issue continue to hold him in the highest regard for his role in advancing the free software movement, is a very frank one: Were his remarks in support of pedophilia designed to persuade Mr. Epstein to donate part of his $500 million estate to the Free Software Foundation, much like he observed role-models such as MIT president Rafael Reif do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Reif sent Mr. Epstein a personally signed thank-you note for his donation to the Media Lab, or colleagues like Martin Nowak do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Nowak created a web page on a university website and an office in his department for a convicted child-rapist in exchange for tens of millions of dollars in donations that were promised to his academic program at Harvard and hundreds of millions of dollars in donations, often laundered through Epstein's fellow billionaire pedophile friends like Les Wexner, Glenn Dubin, and Leon Black, to Harvard University, where Mr. Nowak is a professor? I'm not entirely convinced by the naysayers on this one yet, but Stallman is most deserving of forgiveness thus far, and not because of his autism, but rather because of all of his contributions to free software in spite of it. Some of the other dogs cited above deserve to spend time in the same jail cell where Epstein killed himself because he was too much of a coward to stand trial for all of the crimes that he knew he had committed.
- SuperSandro2000 5y agoThis just reads like a politician got caught in corruption and trying to find excuses and putting himself as the victim. Nothing really changed, nothing except promises and FSF still tried to sneak in RMS and got caught.
- kodah 5y agoSome believe that RMS did nothing wrong. If he hurt people, that's worth addressing, because it is people who make up the free software communities. A function of leadership is to be accountable, not perfect, and in that vein it is on RMS to respond as he did. I always cringe when I see people engage in apology grading. I may be in the minority here but I rarely find it appropriate for leaders in any sense to apologize. It's your job to lead, whether that be in thought, action, or both and I expect that over the course of thousands of decisions for an increasingly ballooning pool of people to represent that you will make mistakes, even large ones, along the way. What I do expect is that leaders are accountable. That doesn't mean to say that leaders should be bound to write out formal apologies to people they hurt, because for every decision on an important issue you will end up hurting someone. For instance, the ideals of free software (as defined by RMS and others) from time to time will likely offend and hurt others. This was relevant when people were trying to modify free software licenses to prevent their software from being used by certain government agencies or authoritarian governments while attempting to continue to benefit from the term "free software". Unfortunately, as pointed out, that very act violated the principles of free software, which exist in their purity to ensure access to even the most oppressed societies across the world. I am sure the people who championed the purity of this access were viewed as hurtful and oppressive by some in the moment. I do expect that these folks will stand up in the face of fierce opposition and will confidently answer their intent and mitigating circumstances and take note for improvements into the future; the same way we would RCA good software. I have a hard time understanding why RMS spends so much time openly espousing his thoughts on a wide range of subjects. I do this in my personal time with friends but I constrain that to people I know because they understand me and my principles. On the other hand, saying that he isn't allowed to comment on other things or classifying that activity as "distracting" is interesting. I feel the same way when I find out developers I like and follow have edgy opinions about race and gender, but I also draw a line of distinction that acknowledges that their experiences in life may just be different from mine, even if they occasionally offend me, and that's okay. The world does take all types, and things I've taken offense to have been done in good faith a good amount of the time. The last notion I'll touch on is that we often expect that leaders will be fully invested in advancing our goals and the traits of the organization. We champion leaders who can take an organization that has lost its way and turn it into something, but do we make the same expectations of ourselves to leaders. Is there a point where we start to invest ourselves into organically growing RMS in certain facets? Free software has grown and evolved, but it sounds like RMS hasn't - should we really cast him aside and decide all of his investment in us is now worthless that he requires investment? That's not to say that people haven't tried to course correct him, because they likely have, but sometimes in order to grow people need things to get worse in order to get better. That's where our investment, as a community, in him starts. That could mean that he seeks therapy, it could mean he gets a publicist, it could mean a wide variety of things, but I'm favorable to treating leaders like the humans that they are.
- selfishgene 5y agoBoth MIT and Harvard have admitted to helping Jeffrey Epstein avoid prosecution on federal racketeering charges for the sex-trafficking of minors after they were exposed by whistle-blowers at both of these institutions. I'm still not sure why people consider it appropriate to exclude someone like Stallman from serving on the Board of the FSF while continuing to allow Mr. Rafael Reif, for example, to remain president of MIT after sending a personally signed "thank-you note" to one of the most notorious alleged sex-traffickers and convicted child-rapists in US history: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei... Nor would it be any more appropriate to allow Mr. Seth Lloyd back onto the MIT campus with just a slap on the wrist: https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op... Or Mr. Martin Nowak for that matter either: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio... This hacker news thread on Nowak is worth reading again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 So why has nobody drafted petitions to cancel Rafael "Thank You So Much Mr. Epstein -- And Don't Forget to Show My Letter to Federal Prosecutors" Reif, Benedict "Epstein is an Ideal Donor for Harvard" Gross, Alan "Dershbag" Dershowitz, Martin "Punishment Serves No Noble Purpose" Nowak, Steven "Using the Internet to Entice a Minor into Prostition is A-Okay" Pinker, Seth "So What If I Make Female Undergraduates at MIT Feel Uncomfortable "Lloyd, Neri "Epstein was Always a Reliable Supporter of Israel" Oxman, Frank "I Never Saw any Girls that were Underage" Wilczek, and all of the other pedophilia-tolerating two-faced phonies that attended EDGE Foundation dinners hosted by the convicted child rapist and/or visited him on "Pedophile Isle," where FBI reportedly found instruction manuals that Mr. Epstein had ordered on Amazon that describe how to create a so-called "sex slave," in addition to video tapes containing child pornography that he allegedly recorded using secret cameras that were installed throughout his various residences? Stallman blaming his "being on the spectrum" for all of the troubling statements cataloged on the website cited below may not entirely excuse Mr. Stallman for making them since there is no evidence that someone on the spectrum is more likely than the general population to hold similar views on child rape: https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman But the most important question today that Mr. Stallman needs to address directly, because many of his critics on this issue continue to hold him in the highest regard for his role in advancing the free software movement, is a very frank one: Were his remarks in support of pedophilia designed to persuade Mr. Epstein to donate part of his $500 million estate to the Free Software Foundation, much like he observed role-models such as MIT president Rafael Reif do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Reif sent Mr. Epstein a personally signed thank-you note for his donation to the Media Lab, or colleagues like Martin Nowak do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Nowak created a web page on a university website and an office in his department for a convicted child-rapist in exchange for tens of millions of dollars in donations that were promised to his academic program at Harvard and hundreds of millions of dollars in donations, often laundered through Epstein's fellow billionaire pedophile friends like Les Wexner, Glenn Dubin, and Leon Black, to Harvard University, where Mr. Nowak is a professor? I'm not entirely convinced by the naysayers on this one yet, but Stallman is most deserving of forgiveness thus far, and not because of his autism, but rather because of all of his contributions to free software in spite of it. Some of the other dogs cited above deserve to spend time in the same jail cell where Epstein killed himself because he was too much of a coward to stand trial for all of the crimes that he knew he had committed.
- selfishgene 5y agoBoth MIT and Harvard have admitted to helping Jeffrey Epstein avoid prosecution on federal racketeering charges for the sex-trafficking of minors after they were exposed by whistle-blowers at both of these institutions. I'm still not sure why people consider it appropriate to exclude someone like Stallman from serving on the Board of the FSF while continuing to allow Mr. Rafael Reif, for example, to remain president of MIT after sending a personally signed "thank-you note" to one of the most notorious alleged sex-traffickers and convicted child-rapists in US history: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei... Nor would it be any more appropriate to allow Mr. Seth Lloyd back onto the MIT campus with just a slap on the wrist: https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op... Or Mr. Martin Nowak for that matter either: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio... This hacker news thread on Nowak is worth reading again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 So why has nobody drafted petitions to cancel Rafael "Thank You So Much Mr. Epstein -- And Don't Forget to Show My Letter to Federal Prosecutors" Reif, Benedict "Epstein is an Ideal Donor for Harvard" Gross, Alan "Dershbag" Dershowitz, Martin "Punishment Serves No Noble Purpose" Nowak, Steven "Using the Internet to Entice a Minor into Prostition is A-Okay" Pinker, Seth "So What If I Make Female Undergraduates at MIT Feel Uncomfortable "Lloyd, Neri "Epstein was Always a Reliable Supporter of Israel" Oxman, Frank "I Never Saw any Girls that were Underage" Wilczek, and all of the other pedophilia-tolerating two-faced phonies that attended EDGE Foundation dinners hosted by the convicted child rapist and/or visited him on "Pedophile Isle," where FBI reportedly found instruction manuals that Mr. Epstein had ordered on Amazon that describe how to create a so-called "sex slave," in addition to video tapes containing child pornography that he allegedly recorded using secret cameras that were installed throughout his various residences? Stallman blaming his "being on the spectrum" for all of the troubling statements cataloged on the website cited below may not entirely excuse Mr. Stallman for making them since there is no evidence that someone on the spectrum is more likely than the general population to hold similar views on child rape: https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman But the most important question today that Mr. Stallman needs to address directly, because many of his critics on this issue continue to hold him in the highest regard for his role in advancing the free software movement, is a very frank one: Were his remarks in support of pedophilia designed to persuade Mr. Epstein to donate part of his $500 million estate to the Free Software Foundation, much like he observed role-models such as MIT president Rafael Reif do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Reif sent Mr. Epstein a personally signed thank-you note for his donation to the Media Lab, or colleagues like Martin Nowak do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Nowak created a web page on a university website and an office in his department for a convicted child-rapist in exchange for tens of millions of dollars in donations that were promised to his academic program at Harvard and hundreds of millions of dollars in donations, often laundered through Epstein's fellow billionaire pedophile friends like Les Wexner, Glenn Dubin, and Leon Black, to Harvard University, where Mr. Nowak is a professor? I'm not entirely convinced by the naysayers on this one yet, but Stallman is most deserving of forgiveness thus far, and not because of his autism, but rather because of all of his contributions to free software in spite of it. Some of the other co-conspirators cited above deserve to spend time in the same jail cell where Epstein killed himself because he was too much of a coward to stand trial for all of the crimes that he knew he had committed.
- selfishgene 5y agoBoth MIT and Harvard have admitted to helping Jeffrey Epstein avoid prosecution on federal racketeering charges for the sex-trafficking of minors after they were exposed by whistle-blowers at both of these institutions. I'm still not sure why people consider it appropriate to exclude someone like Stallman from serving on the Board of the FSF while continuing to allow Mr. Rafael Reif, for example, to remain president of MIT after sending a personally signed "thank-you note" to one of the most notorious alleged sex-traffickers and convicted child-rapists in US history: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei... Nor would it be any more appropriate to allow Mr. Seth Lloyd back onto the MIT campus with just a slap on the wrist: https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op... Or Mr. Martin Nowak for that matter either: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio... This hacker news thread on Nowak is worth reading again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 So why has nobody drafted petitions to cancel Rafael "Thank You So Much Mr. Epstein -- And Don't Forget to Show My Letter to Federal Prosecutors" Reif, Benedict "Epstein is an Ideal Donor for Harvard" Gross, Alan "Dershbag" Dershowitz, Martin "Punishment Serves No Noble Purpose" Nowak, Steven "Using the Internet to Entice a Minor into Prostition is A-Okay" Pinker, Seth "So What If I Make Female Undergraduates at MIT Feel Uncomfortable "Lloyd, Neri "Epstein was Always a Reliable Supporter of Israel" Oxman, Frank "I Never Saw any Girls that were Underage" Wilczek, and all of the other pedophilia-tolerating two-faced phonies that attended EDGE Foundation dinners hosted by the convicted child rapist and/or visited him on "Pedophile Isle," where FBI reportedly found instruction manuals that Mr. Epstein had ordered on Amazon that describe how to create a so-called "sex slave," in addition to video tapes containing child pornography that he allegedly recorded using secret cameras that were installed throughout his various residences? Stallman blaming his "being on the spectrum" for all of the troubling statements cataloged on the website cited below may not entirely excuse Mr. Stallman for making them since there is no evidence that someone on the spectrum is more likely than the general population to hold similar views on child rape: https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman But the most important question today that Mr. Stallman needs to address directly, because many of his critics on this issue continue to hold him in the highest regard for his role in advancing the free software movement, is a very frank one: Were his remarks in support of pedophilia designed to persuade Mr. Epstein to donate part of his $500 million estate to the Free Software Foundation, much like he observed role-models such as MIT president Rafael Reif do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Reif sent Mr. Epstein a personally signed thank-you note for his donation to the Media Lab, or colleagues like Martin Nowak do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Nowak created a web page on a university website and an office in his department for a convicted child-rapist in exchange for tens of millions of dollars in donations that were promised to his academic program at Harvard and hundreds of millions of dollars in donations, often laundered through Epstein's fellow billionaire pedophile friends like Les Wexner, Glenn Dubin, and Leon Black, to Harvard University, where Mr. Nowak is a professor? I'm not entirely convinced by the naysayers on this one yet, but Stallman is most deserving of forgiveness thus far, and not because of his autism, but rather because of all of his contributions to free software in spite of it. Some of the other co-conspirators cited above deserve to spend time in the same jail cell where Epstein killed himself because he was too much of a coward to stand trial for all of the crimes that he knew he had committed.
- MikeUt 5y agoWhile I support RMS and find the lies peddled about him abhorrent, this article convinced me he is not fit to serve as the public face of free software: http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html http://ebb.org/bkuhn/blog/2019/10/15/fsf-rms.html In short: He harmed the cause of free software by making public statements on unrelated, controversial issues.
- selfishgene 5y agooth MIT and Harvard have admitted to helping Jeffrey Epstein avoid prosecution on federal racketeering charges for the sex-trafficking of minors after they were exposed by whistle-blowers at both of these institutions. I'm still not sure why people consider it appropriate to exclude someone like Stallman from serving on the Board of the FSF while continuing to allow Mr. Rafael Reif, for example, to remain president of MIT after sending a personally signed "thank-you note" to one of the most notorious alleged sex-traffickers and convicted child-rapists in US history: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei... Nor would it be any more appropriate to allow Mr. Seth Lloyd back onto the MIT campus with just a slap on the wrist: https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op... Or Mr. Martin Nowak for that matter either: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio... This hacker news thread on Nowak is worth reading again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 So why has nobody drafted petitions to cancel Rafael "Thank You So Much Mr. Epstein -- And Don't Forget to Show My Letter to Federal Prosecutors" Reif, Benedict "Epstein is an Ideal Donor for Harvard" Gross, Alan "Dershbag" Dershowitz, Martin "Punishment Serves No Noble Purpose" Nowak, Steven "Using the Internet to Entice a Minor into Prostition is A-Okay" Pinker, Seth "So What If I Make Female Undergraduates at MIT Feel Uncomfortable "Lloyd, Neri "Epstein was Always a Reliable Supporter of Israel" Oxman, Frank "I Never Saw any Girls that were Underage" Wilczek, and all of the other pedophilia-tolerating two-faced phonies that attended EDGE Foundation dinners hosted by the convicted child rapist and/or visited him on "Pedophile Isle," where FBI reportedly found instruction manuals that Mr. Epstein had ordered on Amazon that describe how to create a so-called "sex slave," in addition to video tapes containing child pornography that he allegedly recorded using secret cameras that were installed throughout his various residences? Stallman blaming his "being on the spectrum" for all of the troubling statements cataloged on the website cited below may not entirely excuse Mr. Stallman for making them since there is no evidence that someone on the spectrum is more likely than the general population to hold similar views on child rape: https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman But the most important question today that Mr. Stallman needs to address directly, because many of his critics on this issue continue to hold him in the highest regard for his role in advancing the free software movement, is a very frank one: Were his remarks in support of pedophilia designed to persuade Mr. Epstein to donate part of his $500 million estate to the Free Software Foundation, much like he observed role-models such as MIT president Rafael Reif do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Reif sent Mr. Epstein a personally signed thank-you note for his donation to the Media Lab, or colleagues like Martin Nowak do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Nowak created a web page on a university website and an office in his department for a convicted child-rapist in exchange for tens of millions of dollars in donations that were promised to his academic program at Harvard and hundreds of millions of dollars in donations, often laundered through Epstein's fellow billionaire pedophile friends like Les Wexner, Glenn Dubin, and Leon Black, to Harvard University, where Mr. Nowak is a professor? I'm not entirely convinced by the naysayers on this one yet, but Stallman is most deserving of forgiveness thus far, and not because of his autism, but rather because of all of his contributions to free software in spite of it. Some of the other co-conspirators cited above deserve to spend time in the same jail cell where Epstein killed himself because he was too much of a coward to stand trial for all of the crimes that he knew he had committed.
- selfishgene 5y agoBoth MIT and Harvard have admitted to helping Jeffrey Epstein avoid prosecution on federal racketeering charges for the sex-trafficking of minors after they were exposed by whistle-blowers at both of these institutions. I'm still not sure why people consider it appropriate to exclude someone like Stallman from serving on the Board of the FSF while continuing to allow Mr. Rafael Reif, for example, to remain president of MIT after sending a personally signed "thank-you note" to one of the most notorious alleged sex-traffickers and convicted child-rapists in US history: https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2020/01/12/after-epstei... Nor would it be any more appropriate to allow Mr. Seth Lloyd back onto the MIT campus with just a slap on the wrist: https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op https://thetech.com/2021/02/25/mit-administration-epstein-op... Or Mr. Martin Nowak for that matter either: https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/03/26/metro/harvard-sanctio... This hacker news thread on Nowak is worth reading again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25442060 So why has nobody drafted petitions to cancel Rafael "Thank You So Much Mr. Epstein -- And Don't Forget to Show My Letter to Federal Prosecutors" Reif, Benedict "Epstein is an Ideal Donor for Harvard" Gross, Alan "Dershbag" Dershowitz, Martin "Punishment Serves No Noble Purpose" Nowak, Steven "Using the Internet to Entice a Minor into Prostition is A-Okay" Pinker, Seth "So What If I Make Female Undergraduates at MIT Feel Uncomfortable "Lloyd, Neri "Epstein was Always a Reliable Supporter of Israel" Oxman, Frank "I Never Saw any Girls that were Underage" Wilczek, and all of the other pedophilia-tolerating two-faced phonies that attended EDGE Foundation dinners hosted by the convicted child rapist and/or visited him on "Pedophile Isle," where FBI reportedly found instruction manuals that Mr. Epstein had ordered on Amazon that describe how to create a so-called "sex slave," in addition to video tapes containing child pornography that he allegedly recorded using secret cameras that were installed throughout his various residences? Stallman blaming his "being on the spectrum" for all of the troubling statements cataloged on the website cited below may not entirely excuse Mr. Stallman for making them since there is no evidence that someone on the spectrum is more likely than the general population to hold similar views on child rape: https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman But the most important question today that Mr. Stallman needs to address directly, because many of his critics on this issue continue to hold him in the highest regard for his role in advancing the free software movement, is a very frank one: Were his remarks in support of pedophilia designed to persuade Mr. Epstein to donate part of his $500 million estate to the Free Software Foundation, much like he observed role-models such as MIT president Rafael Reif do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Reif sent Mr. Epstein a personally signed thank-you note for his donation to the Media Lab, or colleagues like Martin Nowak do for Mr. Epstein when Dr. Nowak created a web page on a university website and an office in his department for a convicted child-rapist in exchange for tens of millions of dollars in donations that were promised to his academic program at Harvard and hundreds of millions of dollars in donations, often laundered through Epstein's fellow billionaire pedophile friends like Les Wexner, Glenn Dubin, and Leon Black, to Harvard University, where Mr. Nowak is a professor? I'm not entirely convinced by the naysayers on this one yet, but Stallman is most deserving of forgiveness thus far, and not because of his autism, but rather because of all of his contributions to free software in spite of it. Some of the other co-conspirators cited above deserve to spend time in the same jail cell where Epstein killed himself because he was too much of a coward to stand trial for all of the crimes that he knew he had committed.
- type0 5y agoI'm getting tired of seeing this second uninstallman dramatizations everywhere, FOSS blogs, Linux distros, Twitter, HN, but what do I know, the witchhunt will go on.
- DoreenMichele 5y agoI'm quite impressed with this statement. It isn't at all what I expected. I hope he can put this mess behind him.
- tycomment 5y agoThe misinformation goes on. Susan Boos, president of the Swiss Press Council (!) writes: https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/amp/meinung/gastkommentar-richard-stallman-sexismus-software-sozialismus-und-das-ende-einer-guten-idee-ld.2123542 https://www.aargauerzeitung.ch/amp/meinung/gastkommentar-ric... "Es ging um unterschiedliche sexistische Übergriffe. An seiner Bürotür stand «Ritter für Gerechtigkeit (auch: heisse Ladies)»." "The topic were various sexual assaults. On his office door there was a sign «knight for justice (also: hot ladies)»." This has been debunked multiple times, in fact the photo shows it was most likely students making a joke: https://www.stallmansupport.org/say-it-with-a-meme.html#door https://www.stallmansupport.org/say-it-with-a-meme.html#door Way to go, Swiss "Press Council" ...