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Gallup: U.S. church membership dips below 50% for first time

• toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Late 30s here who was dragged to church by parents and grandparents but who isn't exposing our kids to religion. It’s pretty straightforward for us: you don’t need fairy tales to be a good person and to come to terms with death (which comes for everyone). “Be happy, be kind.” If others choose to observe, that’s their choice.
  • justaman 6y ago
    It goes beyond fairy tails. There is a sense of community that (for the most part) only religion has been able to maintain in the information age.
    • toomuchtodo 6y ago
      Yes, we’ve had to create our own social fabric that a church would’ve been, but as our loved ones and friends are spread across the country and world, a weekly gathering would do us little good. The challenge is to build community without the judgement that comes along with the beliefs required to attend a church. We strongly support LGBTQ+ folks, the idea of ethical non monogamy, people who elect to be child free, etc, which through our travels and experiences with religious believers, we’ve found incompatible with any church social fabric.
      • AuthorizedCust 6y ago
        > ...without the judgement that comes along with the beliefs required to attend a church. You're responding to fundamentalism and certain non-fundamentalist denominations that take fundamentalist views on selected issues. Look at recent denominational schisms: Episcopal Church (United States), the United Methodist Church (resolution is on the table but delayed due to the pandemic), etc. The people on the right side of history and the church are winning, and the bigots and fundamentalists are splitting off.
      • splithalf 6y ago
        You may find that you judge others, and others judge you, without the help of religions. Some would say that’s one theme of Christian belief, “judge not, lest we be judged ourselves.” You are ironically doing what you find fault in, judging others. “Christians are too judgmental.” Well, so are non-religious folks and they don’t have any scripture or religious leaders to remind them to be humble, not to cast stones, turn the other cheek, love thy neighbor. If nothing else look for counter examples, the many people of faith who do a lot of good in the world through charity and spiritual work. I assure you, these people exist. Don’t fall prey to confirmation bias and a culture that stigmatizes faith and spirituality as unsophisticated and oppressive, it’s literally the opposite of the truth if you look at it empirically.
        • praisewoke 6y ago
          Woke scolds are more judgmental than any old church marm but have no God they feel they should humble themselves before. The leaders of the Intersectional crusade see themselves as the highest moral paragons and the whole faith lacks self awareness
          • nonotreally 6y ago
            More judgemental than the church? How do you reconcile the entire gay communities experience with this statement?
    • nonotreally 6y ago
      That's a lie that religions keep perpetuating. Many social groups exist that are just as fulfilling. My gym for example is full of people who actively work in the community, help each other and gather multiple times per week to better themselves and encourage their community. Religion has nothing to offer that secular society cannot offer. It does offer a lot of downsides though.
      • dagw 6y ago
        Religion has nothing to offer that secular society cannot offer. While this might be true in theory, I have not found it true in practice. I am no longer religious and I have not attended church for 20+ years, but despite trying many of these secular 'alternatives' to church I have yet to find anything as open, welcoming and socially supportive as I found church. edit: Yes, I know this isn't everybody's experience, and yes some churches can be extremely bigoted, exclusionary and downright evil to people they perceive as 'others'.
        • randcraw 6y ago
          What you say about churches being welcoming agrees with my experiences too, from what I've seen of others, given that I don't attend. But I think faith is only part of the reason for attending. Essential in the choice to join a church is the desire to seek out a kind of 'marriage', where for better and worse, you promise to look out for others in an extended family and to help them when they need you. That sense of belonging is one of the big things that brings everyone in a church together -- the wish to be part of a community that regularly joins together and where you can share your life with others. Membership in a social club can't do that.
          • deleted 6y ago
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          • nonotreally 6y ago
            In the strongest possible terms, I reject this entirely. I'm trying to put into words how much I disagree and why, but I'm failing. Others have done a better job than I can. I can only recommend you read the strong counter opinions to your position. I wish you well. But I wont participate in these groups.
    • jordanpg 6y ago
      While I agree that there is something important to be said for maintaining a sense of community, it obviously does not require any kind of supernatural belief to do so. I would argue that the cost paid by society due to the institutionalized anti-intellectualism embodied by the church and largely embraced by the government far exceeds whatever communitarian benefits the church itself contributes to society. Let's find those benefits elsewhere.
      • praisewoke 6y ago
        > it obviously does not require any kind of supernatural belief to do so. How is this so obvious? Where's the counterexample? I've never lived it
        • fader 6y ago
          You've never seen a non-religious club? Or a political group? Or a volunteer society? There are plenty of non-religious communities all over the world. Look at any co-op if you want an example.
          • TeMPOraL 6y ago
            But the thing is, these non-religious communities tend not to be stable long-term, they're not as well-coordinated, and don't seem to influence people's behavior all that much. Abstracted from all particulars of a given belief system, religions seem to be a refined, hyperoptimized form of community building.
            • nonotreally 6y ago
              This isn't true. Secular society is an example of this. We have common goals that we work towards. We don't have words for "gather once a week and do xyz" in many context, but that doesn't stop us for doing it. Join an electronics club and meet up every week for the next 10 years. People do this ALL the time and it isn't an issue.
        • InitialLastName 6y ago
    • jimhefferon 6y ago
      > a sense of community I'm sorry to see the downvotes since this as an intelligent point. I'm not religious but one thing I do envy in my church-going friends is fellowship. I'm a man in my 60's, and maybe all this is not applicable for the majority of folks here. But people don't have groups like clubs or bowling leagues very much anymore. Watching TV at home is fine, but not enough. (I'm in a club that is now breaking up, as these things do, and I think there is a very good chance I will not see these friends regularly again, which is too bad.) Of course, I could volunteer at a food bank, etc., but people I know that are in a church seem to find it more natural.
      • justaman 6y ago
        In my experience nothing has been able to replicate what religion does for communities. Every Sunday hundreds of people get together and chat over coffee before service. This mass gathering offers the opportunity to find other people with similar interests which in turn leads to small groups. Some will say, "That's what meetup.com is for.". I agree, meetup.com is great, but it doesn't have that central core of hundreds of people before splitting up into smaller groups. Meetup.com cuts out the larger group entirely and pushes people into smaller groups automatically. That's an important thing that gets lost.
        • gumby 6y ago
          I meet like minded friends from the group classes at they gym, working at a homeless shelter, some conferences, being on the school board. “Like minded” means these aren’t folks with whom I only discuss things related to how we met. That’s kind of how society works, right? If you go to some sort of religious festival it’s merely another form of this. I’m not even particularly gregarious.
      • jordanpg 6y ago
        Much like claims about morality, the claim of the religious to be the only glue that can hold communities together is an obviously false claim that the religious get to make with a straight face because of the moment in history that we live in. In the United States, the primacy of Christianity over the last few hundred years has resulted in a culture that maintains nonsensical claims like these enshrined and untouchable. Of course, this had to change eventually because the underlying supernatural theories are self-evidently false. For minus the supernatural claims, religious is just another secular organization which fosters certain cultural and social beliefs, like many, many, many others. There is nothing special about religion and there never has been. Human beings do not require certain questions to be answered with recourse to magic in order to function. See the atomic theory for a counterexample. I beg the moderates among us to agree that community is good, but to insist that it need not come with ridiculous magic strings attached.
    • MisterBastahrd 6y ago
      Any crawfish boil in Louisiana will disabuse you of that notion.
    • gspr 6y ago
      > There is a sense of community that (for the most part) only religion has been able to maintain in the information age. Would it not be healthier to center that community around something real? It doesn't have to be something serious, but something real would be good.
  • splithalf 6y ago
    You don’t care about it’s positive influence on other people? I understand feeling like you are enlightened and psychologically adjusted such that you don’t need anything beyond science and your own intellect, but surely you see the positive effects it has on other people, and cultures? Do you really think a world without black churches is a better world?
    • toomuchtodo 6y ago
      If people need to fear a God or Hell to be a good person, there is value in the stability that generates. Plenty of people out there who do believe and still do terrible things to others. If someone has a positive experience at church and it adds value to your life, I’m not judging nor do I have anything bad to say about the value it provides.
    • MisterBastahrd 6y ago
      My black kids are doing just fine without a church and I've got to wonder why you think they need one.
      • splithalf 6y ago
        That’s a crazy leap to make from my statement which was that killing off black churches would not make the world better. That is the key counter factual for those who claim religion has no benefit to society, or even stronger claims that it retards our moral progress. I think the evidence is clear if you’re honest about the data. Faith helps people with life’s difficulties. I’m certainly not saying any one group needs faith more than any other group. No Christian person will ever make such a claim which is antithetical to the core premise of Christianity, universal brotherhood.
        • MisterBastahrd 6y ago
          > No Christian person will ever make such a claim which is antithetical to the core premise of Christianity, universal brotherhood. Ah yes, no true Christian. A visit to the American South will disabuse you of that notion.
  • baryphonic 6y ago
    What is a "good person?" And do you really think people who believe in God are just listening to "fairy tails (sic)" so they can be face the reality of death? Is that really the best portrayal of Christians you can come up with?
    • toomuchtodo 6y ago
      Christians base their belief system on a collection of stories from 2000+ years ago and the idea of a deity and other planes of existence (edit: “Heaven” and “Hell”) of which no proof exists. Please correct me if any of the above is inaccurate.
      • AuthorizedCust 6y ago
        Sounds accurate, from a super high level, except for the "other planes of existence" part. I'd need to dig into that with you to understand more.
        • deleted 6y ago
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      • baryphonic 6y ago
        We base our beliefs in the teachings of Jesus, who was born as a human despite being divine; ministered to people he encountered, performed many signs, taught profound moral truths (e.g. through parables, small debates with the leaders of the time, or even breaking up angry lynch mobs), and then became a scapegoat who suffered, died, was buried and came back. Everything else follows from that, at least in Christianity. I suppose I believe in "other planes of existence" (is this supposed to be Heaven and Hell or something?), but those are contingent upon the truth of Jesus' suffering, death and resurrection. I guess I'd say I think we already exist in another "plane" which is immaterial and inaccessible in this life, but is nonetheless real. I suppose I also "believe in a deity," but not with the connotations you seem to be suggesting. God is not some component of existence or reality or the universe, independent of other things; He is the only source of what it means to exist. I would say I don't even believe that God exists, but that He is below or outside of existence, as He caused everything else to exist that exists. If someone believes in God as a sort of Santa Claus or Jinn granting wishes, then no, I don't believe in that kind of "deity" either. That's just silly nonsense.
  • peterlk 6y ago
    > you don’t need fairy tails to be a good person and to come to terms with death I don't think this is true in general. I have a pet theory that much of the conspiracy theory following we are seeing is actually a weakening of church. People need spirituality - it doesn't matter where that spirituality comes from (except for local social pressures - but those aren't relevant to this point). If they're not getting spirituality from church, it has to come from somewhere. So people latch on to conspiracy theories because it provides higher purpose in their lives. If you are teaching your children to be good and to not fear death, you need some philosophical backbone with which to unify these ideas. You may well be able to provide that, but not everyone is. Religion serves as a common philosophical substrate for discussions that people don't know how to have. It is imperfect, and definitely not as good as thoughtful parenting in my opinion, but it fills some of the gaps.
    • praisewoke 6y ago
      > much of the conspiracy theory following we are seeing is actually a weakening of church I completely agree. Critical Theory / Wokeness / Social Justice is a new secular religion on the rise for the sophisticated and cults of personality are there for the unsophisticated
      • ccn0p 6y ago
        Agreed. God help us all.
    • etrautmann 6y ago
      I think you have a reasonable point embedded in a false dichotomy. People need to feel a sense of purpose, and that can come from spirituality, engagement with a community, service, fulfilling work, etc.
    • randcraw 6y ago
      > [religion] fills some of the gaps. But what does it fill the gaps with? All monotheistic religions demand that you believe that an all powerful deity underlies and motivates everything in the universe. That's a pretty bold premise, especially since we're told that belief must be based not on evidence but solely on blind faith. A 'gap filler' like that doesn't passively serve only to connect one social principle with others. In the case of Christianity, it compels you to believe that all of human existence arises from an invisible monarch who rules the universe and will damn you to eternal hell if you disobey Him. If a 'gap filler' is what you seek to give life a bit more meaning and coherence, religion is a very inelegant way to do just that.
  • undefined1 6y ago
    I agree, but beware that many people end up filling a religion shaped hole with other things. look at how many of our fellow atheists have joined the church of social justice. adhering to a new kind of religion and dogma. things you can't say, heretics who must be cast out, good vs evil, original sin, preachers, zealots, self flagellation. it's all there, except for a path to redemption. https://reason.com/2020/06/29/kneeling-in-the-church-of-social-justice/ https://reason.com/2020/06/29/kneeling-in-the-church-of-soci...
    • nicbou 6y ago
      I'm not sure if it makes sense to connect those two. Is there any more political zealotry among atheists than among the religious?
    • oblio 6y ago
      I think that at some level you need a belief system. There will always be things beyond us, so at some level the only thing we can do is guess. But we shouldn't let those guesses dominate our life and we should re-evaluate them completely, say, at least every decade.
    • gumby 6y ago
      > religion shaped hole Your statement presumes that there is something innate about religion. There are billions of people who live completely off the line of explicitly atheistic <-> avowedly devout. They are by their nature not generally considered in such discussions.
    • freewilly1040 6y ago
      QAnon is also a filler of this void.
  • JKCalhoun 6y ago
    We raised our kids the same. Even allowing that they might want to go to church themselves. While I suggested it only once or twice they were not interested. I think we all know what is right and wrong. And regarding death, none of us know anything at all. Religion then might offer a sense of community and also solace for those times when there is nothing you can do but suffer. And for that I wish I could have found a religious community that I was comfortable with and could have shared with my children. The closest I ever came was a Quaker Meeting my mother took my sibling and I too when we were young. Perhaps I should have tried harder to find another but it didn't seem as important as other aspects of raising children — finding as much time to do stuff with them, take them traveling, etc.
  • gher-shyu3i 6y ago
    > to be a good person It's the other way around. The religion needs to be investigated to see if it provides proof of its correctness, and if it does, there really isn't reason not to accept it other than wanting to follow personal desires.
  • ScaredOfDying 6y ago
    Do you have any advice/resources for coming to terms with death as a non-believer? I've had existential dread for as long as I remember, but it's gotten far worse as I've slowly lost what faith I had over the years. There's a certain irony in being so scared of death that it ruins your life.
    • toomuchtodo 6y ago
      “Man is like a dog tied to a moving wagon. If the dog refuses to run along with the wagon he will be dragged by it, yet the choice remains his: to run or be dragged.” We’re all default dead in the long run, make the most of what time you have with whatever brings you joy and happiness. Choose to run.
      • deleted 6y ago
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      • ScaredOfDying 6y ago
        I guess that’s the thing - I do choose to run every day. I love my wife, I generally enjoy my job. I literally run in the park everyday. I don’t sit around in a dark room despairing (at least not until I go to bed). I do my absolute best to get the most out of life. But the feeling of dread stays with me no matter what I do. It taints every memory and every waking moment. I can’t run from my thoughts, try as I might.
        • toomuchtodo 6y ago
          It’s okay to be afraid, courage isn’t a lack of fear, but overcoming the fear you have. You have an entire life ahead of you to make peace with the cycle. If you want to chat more, let me know how to get in touch.
          • ScaredOfDying 6y ago
            Thank you, I really appreciate the offer. This feeling is definitely something I'd like to free myself from, and you seem to have figured out how to get a sense of peace. I'd love to chat. My email is charliecollard0 at gmail dot com. I feel like such a fool for going down this path, but I've recently been reading up on life extension, and Aubrey de Grey in particular. In fact, I did a Google search for his name on hacker news, and this thread came up and I recognised your handle in the discussion! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20854050 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20854050 It's embarrassing how much relief even thinking about the possibility of having more time with the people I love gives me, compared to everything else I've tried. Do you think it's healthy to have this in the back of my mind as a possiblity? My rational side wants to dismiss it as just another religion of a different shade, and I feel it does set myself up for a lot of disappointment at an older age. After all, if it sounds too good to be true... Have you gone down this road yourself?
  • SyzygistSix 6y ago
    On the other hand, we are a people of stories. Stories help to explain abstract concepts and elucidate our values. Everyone has a belief system, even if they are unaware of it.
• yhoneycomb 6y ago
  Curious about how high that number is for ethnic minorities. Anecdotally, minorities (black, Asian, Hispanic) tend to be more religious.
  • yhoneycomb 6y ago
    lol was downvoted for this classic hacker news
  • CountDrewku 6y ago
    They also tend to be more conservative and I think that's starting to change their voting habits. A lot are leaving the left. Edit: Ok just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not true. Minorities in this country are highly religious. Take a look at how many blacks and Hispanics voted for Trump this election.
    • whymauri 6y ago
      You're being downvoted, but this can be true in the Hispanic community. One must realize that a third-generation Cuban American in Miami lives a totally different experience than a naturalized Colombian carpenter in East Boston, both of which might struggle to relate with the trials and tribulation of a Mexican or Guatemalan teenager who crossed the border alone during the past four years. So yes: some fractions of the Hispanic community are highly conservative (the Cuban abuelitas and abuelitos playing dominos on Sundays LOVE to vote) and others are quite literally the opposite. One thing to note is that Spanish-language media leans conservative -- I think this is what you're talking about. Previously immobilized voting blocks in South Florida are leaning conservative partially because the news coverage of 2020 has been from a conservative angle.
    • cmrdporcupine 6y ago
      They tend to be conservative on cultural issues, but "left" on economic issues and the true "triumph" of the hard right and the failure of the "left" has been that they tied these two things so closely together that people routinely vote against their own interests on economic issues because of how they feel about cultural issues.
• Applejinx 6y ago
  Now let's tax churches, like Frank Zappa suggested :)
  • CountDrewku 6y ago
    Ehhh Christian churches are some of the largest charitable donators in the world. Unless those taxes are going to the same places to help people I'd vote no. The government isn't going to spend it on things that help people and we know that.
    • deleted 6y ago
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    • saddestcatever 6y ago
      Wouldn't it be similar to corporate tax? Tax profits, so that any existing donations would be tax deductible?
      • sithlord 6y ago
        Unsure exactly what you mean, church costs - donations = taxable "profits"? Not sure I really agree with taxing donations - I do think that it would cut down on how much churches bring in (as in people would be less likely to donate), and are able to distribute as a commenter above said. Now, I do believe that all other related income should be taxed by churches, whereas I think only "unrelated" income is taxable now. So for example: Church makes original christian music and makes income from spotify (or other sources) Church records their services and puts them on youtube (and monitizes them) Church rents out building for weddings or other events. etc (some of these may or may not be currently taxable, I am not an expert but my quick search seems to think they may not be)
        • ben7799 6y ago
          The churches can say they have no profits, but there's a lot of money getting spent on dubious things that a typical non-profit doesn't have. So you can tax the golden altars they build, or the private jets the pastors fly around on, or the castles the leaders live in. There's a huge sham in all this.
• gabythenerd 6y ago
  I am impressed that numbers are that high, looking from the outside the US doesn't look particularly religious. It might be lower still, I don't think young people answer cellphone surveys all that much.
  • matsemann 6y ago
    Surveys like that are often designed to get a representative group. It's not like they call thousand people on random and keep their responses outright. After a while a certain demographic will be "full" and as such the effort will be to get responses for the groups not adequately represented yet. Or another way is to weigh the answers. If you get 90% responses from elderly and 10% from young, you cannot just use the average. But can use models to apply those groups' answers to how big the group is in the demographic of the country.
  • ryneandal 6y ago
    Much of the heartland is _very_ religious. Drive across the country and in the flyover states you'll see A LOT of anti-abortion/sin billboards.
    • derwiki 6y ago
      “Hell is Real” was always my fave
    • city41 6y ago
      It's not just the "flyover" states, its more rural areas. I've seem many religious billboards in Oregon and California.
  • Renaud 6y ago
    >looking from the outside the US doesn't look particularly religious. I am genuinely wondering how you can get to this feeling about the US where religion permeates a lot of the social and political spheres. For a Western country, I am actually quite amazed at the prominence of religion in the US, and by religion, I mean Christianity and its various incarnations. Looking at it from the outside it's actually really weird.
• datavirtue 6y ago
  The spread of information has allowed people to form their own moralistic code and spiritual journey that doesn't rely on having an institutional infrastructure. They are choosing religions that reject elite priesthoods, a trend now going back for thousands of years starting with Zarathustra. I consider this progress.
  • arbitrage 6y ago
    > They are choosing religions that reject elite priesthoods Do you have an example of such in the modern age? I don't really see many people I know "choosing religions that reject elite priesthoods"
    • flyingfences 6y ago
      Quakerism would fit the bill, though I don't know how many people are choosing it these days.
    • xattt 6y ago
      This is hard to define as there is ambiguity between religion and spirituality. Even a subscription to pure scientific worldview is a religion in itself.
    • bryanlarsen 6y ago
      QAnon?
      • PeterisP 6y ago
        QAnon seems to have many parallels with "prophetic" religions where you don't have a priesthood class organizing specific groups of followers e.g. parishes, but you have a priesthood class interpreting the words of a prophet and popularizing these interpretations; in this case "priesthood" isn't a formal distinction, but de facto you tend to have specific minority of people fulfilling this role.
  • danbruc 6y ago
    They are choosing religions that reject elite priesthoods [...] They choose no religion.
• jimmytucson 6y ago
  Link to the actual Gallup article is better: https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-...
• arbitrage 6y ago
  the church i belonged to growing up rejects my basic personhood. good riddance.
• hprotagonist 6y ago
  first time in 80 years, anyway. for rather more of the 19th century than we think, regular church attendance was more like 35% of the country.
  • ekianjo 6y ago
    Any source for that?
    • hprotagonist 6y ago
      https://www-tc.pbs.org/fmc/book/pdf/ch6.pdf https://www-tc.pbs.org/fmc/book/pdf/ch6.pdf gives 41% in the first decade of the 20th century, quoting the US Census Bureau. "Unaffiliated with any church" was the majority position of the US from then until at least 1950, it seems: https://rmadisonj.blogspot.com/2015/03/sunday-mornin-comin-down.html https://rmadisonj.blogspot.com/2015/03/sunday-mornin-comin-d...
  • dbatten 6y ago
    Thanks for pointing this out. There's a big difference between church attendance and church membership... Unfortunately, the original linked article glosses over the difference, while the original Gallup study digs into it. According to Gallup, approximately half of the recent reduction in church membership can be attributed to people becoming less religious, while the other half is explained by people who still attend church regularly, but avoid formal "membership" in a congregation. And, to your point, the historical data is very telling. My understanding is that the idea that basically everybody in the US used to be super religious and go to church all the time is largely a myth. In fact, I believe the high-water mark for US church attendance as a percentage of the population was actually around 1990. (Source: Sociologists of religion Rodney Stark / Roger Finke. Their book "The Churching of America" attempts to get historical stats on this question, and includes this graph: https://madeinamericathebook.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/finke-stark-e1268599725738.jpg https://madeinamericathebook.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/fin...) Take from these stats/trends what you will. Just adding some additional context to the discussion.
    • 6y ago
• xyzelement 6y ago
  There's a great discourse in one of Dan Brown's books about whether people leave religion because they have found better answers elsewhere, or because they have stopped asking the questions. Separately, I observed that that the areligious are much more likely to have few or no kids while the religious folks put a much greater emphasis on it. As the secular world moves towards a place where there's no pressure to marry and procreate at all, how long before it is once again relegated into a demographic minority?
  • Someone 6y ago
    There’s out- and inflow, too ((children of) the religious becoming areligious and vice-versa). I expect those to more than compensate for the religious having more kids, on average.
  • hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
    > how long before it is once again relegated into a demographic minority? Many children of religious people are areligous, which is a primary reason how we got to < 50% church membership in the first place.
  • ckdarby 6y ago
    > how long before it is once again relegated into a demographic minority? 2-3 more generations to go I suspect based on personal experience where it'll be less than 10%. My grandparents were religious and my grandma prior to covid hadn't missed weekly service her whole life. My parents were "partial" religious meaning they went to major events and still have an identity linked to their religion. I grew up in a religious environment. Decided that belief and faith system wasn't for me in my teenage years and once on my own became an atheist. My wife and I will raise our children without it being in a religious environment.
  • WJW 6y ago
    There was a religious leader making a similar argument some time back, but I don't think it holds together all that well. After all, back in the middle ages the amount of churchgoing people was near 100% and religions were promoting big families then just as much as now. So if religious parents "out-produce" their non-religious counterparts how did we ever get to the current situation where a majority is not religious? The answer is of course that children choose their own way and don't stay religious just because of their parents.
• eruci 6y ago
  Maybe people are leaving church because they have started asking questions. Not the kind of questions religion 'asks', which are answers in disguise.
  • galangalalgol 6y ago
    The notion that people have suddenly become smarter or more objective or more rational has been blasted tume and time again, both by uncovering new past instances of rationality and by new blunders reminding us that it is our reason that evolved to serve our intincts, and thinking our reason is actually in charge is thus delusional. When people's physical needs are being met well, they become less religious. Look at relgious growth in undeveloped countries as an example. Those people aren't less intelligent than us, and if we point to education, we have data indicating our quality of education is decreasing while religious affiliation falls as well. Even with physical needs being met, people have certain needs that religons were meeting. We should be careful what part of aociety picks up meeting those needs. Politics? Yikes we know what happens when the passion and absolute certainty of religion gets infused into politics, we are seeing it now. Science? Belief harms science, science requires skepticism even of our best axioms to avoid dogma. Don't drown people who ask questions your theory can't answer. If we dont find a safe outlet for those residual needs, we are better off keeping religion around to fill them without giving it any temporal power.
    • eruci 6y ago
      Maybe.
  • ed25519FUUU 6y ago
    Not all religions and churches are declining. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world[1]. In Europe is growing especially fast if compared to local demographics. Cyprus is 25% Muslim. France nearly 10%[2]. 1. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/06/why-muslims-are-the-worlds-fastest-growing-religious-group/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/06/why-muslims... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe
• whalesalad 6y ago
  I had a unique experience growing up in a religious family (that is very tolerant and respectful of all world religions) while simultaneously being immersed in Scientology via a private school experience. The thing that underscores all of my experiences has been hypocrisy. So many people just want to belong to a group, or were raised in it and know nothing better. They don’t practice what they preach. I can’t help but think the world will be better off when we abolish big religion.
  • gottebp 6y ago
    As one who loves the Catholic faith, despite the failings of its members, and who yet also fails to live it well -- I agree with you that hypocrisy is a massive problem. The group Jesus is harshest with in the Gospels is in fact the hypocrites. He even calls them white washed tombs full of dead men's bones! What a lamentable state of things. G.K. Chesterton's words in "What's Wrong with the World" come to mind where he points out "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried." Perhaps this applies to all major belief systems though, and not Christianity alone.
  • symfoniq 6y ago
    The world will be better off when we abolish freedom of belief? That doesn't sound like a world I'd want to live in.
    • visarga 6y ago
      There's a long way from freedom of belief to the kind of identity politics practiced by religious groups. Ironically religious people are under the risk of getting cancelled by their own group if they dare wrongthink, so they are less free.
      • throwaway0a5e 6y ago
        >There's a long way from freedom of belief to the kind of identity politics practiced by religious groups. Ironically religious people are under the risk of getting cancelled by their own group if they dare wrongthink, so they are less free. Are we discussing organized religions or political parties? Your comment could apply to either.
• jawns 6y ago
  Americans' religious affiliations and degree of religious adherence tend to follow a generational step-down pattern. For instance, in my grandparents' day, both religious affiliation and religious adherence were relatively high. In Philly, where my mom grew up, Catholic schools were practically overflowing, and parents expected that the school would supplement and support the religious upbringing they were receiving at home. Then in the next generation, there was a shift. Religious affiliation remained relatively high, but religious adherence and attendance began to decrease. Those Catholic schools continued to bring in students, but there was a marked difference; parents who were not particular devout themselves expected that the school would replace and make up for the religious instruction that many of the kids were not receiving at home. These people might still have identified themselves as Catholic, but they weren't really actively practicing their faith. Nowadays, Catholic schools are largely on life support, because the decrease in religious affiliation that was precipitated by the decrease in adherence/attendance has now cut down enrollment to a much smaller number of families who either have high devotion or who have low devotion but see the schools as better than the public alternatives. Parents who in the previous generation might have sent their kids to Catholic school to replace the religious instruction they weren't getting at home have instead decided to disaffiliate and not give their kids outsourced religious instruction. Whereas in previous generations, they might have continued to identify as Catholic even though they were inactive, in this generation it's much more common to just shed the identity. Obviously, I'm just painting a small part of the picture, of Catholicism in the mid-Atlantic region. Many other parts of the country with other religious makeups have followed different patterns. But I think we can basically predict what the religious landscape is going to be like over the next generation or two by following this step-down pattern. (This assumes that religiosity will continue getting weaker, which is not necessarily a sure thing. Religious revivals have been relatively common throughout history.)
• nly 6y ago
  For comparison, UK church membership is <10% and forecast to fall to to 4% by 2025. Numbers for those claiming to be of "No religion" range from from 50 to 60% depending on region. 38% don't believe in God or any higher spiritual power. The interesting thing is people will identify as Christian on the census while also not claiming to subscribe to any particular religion in other surveys. 2021 census (just completed this month) results will be interesting https://faithsurvey.co.uk/uk-christianity.html https://faithsurvey.co.uk/uk-christianity.html
  • Milner08 6y ago
    Other than my Grandma who is in her 90's and one friend who joined a church later in life (his family are atheist) I don't know anyone in the UK who goes to church. At least among my friends its just not a thing. I find it bizarre how many people in America attend church, but I hold nothing against them for it.
    • nprateem 6y ago
      Yeah but they do all the gospel and dancing stuff over there. Don't tell me you don't want to FEEL THE POWER
  • thinkingemote 6y ago
    It's Holy Week this week (the week before Easter starts) and every day there is a service in each parish. UK, Roman Catholic churches. You have to book online to reserve a place. A quick look at a few parishes in an area for big and small churches shows that all the services for each day of the week and weekend are booked out in advance. Obviously the numbers able to fit in the churches are capped because of Coronavirus, but it appears as if there are more people who are wanting to attend than can. What I can say with some confidence is that there is at the very least more demand than the capacity.
    • gpderetta 6y ago
      I might take my kids there. Then again I also took them to see Santa. Unfunny quip aside, it is a social gathering and it is undeniably positive for the community.
• cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  Having the Church community while growing up was great. But the fact that admission to this community required total philosophical adherence is just bizarre. Frankly, growing up in the church left me with a broken moral code. It was only once I left it in my teens and had to work things out for myself that I feel like I could properly ground myself ethically. Having a moral system imposed on you can do that.
  • Loughla 6y ago
    100% that second paragraph. Growing up with morals imposed on my, via the threat of fire and brimstone was weird. I did what I had to do, because I was told to do it or else. Being an adult and doing the right thing, simply because it's the right thing, and developing my own moral and ethical code of conduct has greatly reduced my stress and anxiety.
    • jrs235 6y ago
      I hear you. This, reliance on the Old Testament fire and brimstone teaching is a failure of the church. The Law (and the fire and brimstone) is important to show how we (no one) can live up to being prefect and our need for forgiveness and love. We are to do things out of love, not out of fear.
      • bshep 6y ago
        Pretty much sums up my experience as well, I grew up going to church and every week it was ‘follow the church or go to hell’ and ‘you are all sinners going to hell’. As an adult ( in a different geographic area ) I’ve been to church with my wife and its a much more positive experience. In the end my ‘belief’ is in a moral code and not in a religion.
  • sarabad2021 6y ago
    > But the fact that admission to this community required total philosophical adherence is just bizarre. I don't think it's bizarre at all. With the church removed from western society something will fill the vacuum. And truly it already has. Our society requires complete unquestioning philosophical adherence to its new religion. What happened during the French revolution? They turned the churches into "Temples of Reason" all the while lopping off the head of anyone that did not wholly and totally adhere to their new moral code. Even in the end the god of this new moral code met his fate by the monster he created. Believe me what is happening is not what anyone here should want. For all of you who are thinking and reasonable. Read the history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianization_of_France_during_the_French_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianization_of_France_d...
• nanna 6y ago
  Church, synagogue or mosque. Not just church. Also how about updating the link to direct to the Gallup poll itself? https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-...
• swiley 6y ago
  At least where I leave you're not allowed to go to church and haven't been for a year. I'm surprised the numbers are this high.
  • timbit42 6y ago
    This poll is about membership not attendance.
• agomez314 6y ago
  Bishop Barron had a good writeup on this in his meeting to the conference of US Bishops: https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/article/the-usccb-meeting-jordan-peterson-and-the-nones-2/24328/ https://www.wordonfire.org/resources/article/the-usccb-meeti...
  • Alenycus 6y ago
    Bishop barron is great, as a practicing catholic strikes a great balance between the more liberal and traditional wings of the church.
• ccn0p 6y ago
  The Christian church has gone through an interesting time in 2020. Many churches have lost attendance as pastors closed their doors or tried to stay out of politics, while other stronger pastors who have kept their doors open despite lockdowns and are speaking up against the US government with respect to threats against religious freedom (eg see H.R. 5) -- those churches are stronger and more vibrant than ever.
  • fennecfoxen 6y ago
    I'm not 100% sure who and what you're referring to (having followed only my own church of late), but it's worth vaguely agreeing with the sentiment that successful religious establishments have some meaning — and moreover, a meaning that's materially different than what the secular world around them has to offer. If they're just an extension of whatever is popular these days, people will simply cut out the middleman.
  • _1100 6y ago
    The absolute bias and lack of any self awareness present in your statements here is fascinating. There really is only the One Way for you, isn’t there? Call me brave, but I would counter that there may, in fact, be at least one other way to interpret ideas like “strong”, “freedom”, and “vibrant”.
    • ccn0p 6y ago
      Isn't everything a bias in some way? But point taken. I don't attend multiple churches, I attend one, and it, like others of its ilk, has been under attack, so observations are of course my own. But if you want to mute the language some, let's s/strong//, s/freedom/choice, and s/vibrant/well-attended.
      • RankingMember 6y ago
        Under attack how, exactly? By being asked to close during a pandemic?
        • 6y ago
• currymj 6y ago
  Fanny Holmes (wife of Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.) once said, when asked why she belonged to the Unitarian Church, "In Boston one has to be something, and Unitarian is the least you can be." Unitarianism by the 20th century didn't have any dogma, even atheists and agnostics could be members, and accepted that all religious traditions had spiritual wisdom to offer. But because it had evolved from Christianity it had institutional legitimacy, in a world where church membership was a social requirement. People's beliefs might have changed less than we think over time, despite the common perception that nearly everyone in the US was hyper-religious until the last few decades. There might be other factors around the decline in church membership -- perhaps related to the decline in participation in secular community groups as well.
  • gwbas1c 6y ago
    Living in Massachusetts, what I've found is that the UU still requires a strict adherence to very left-leaning politics. The dogma shifted from a religious dogma to a political one. For example: https://barnstableuu.org/about/history.html https://barnstableuu.org/about/history.html > In the early 19th century there was considerable theological debate in the “churches of the standing order” in New England. Many churches actually split over this debate, the traditionalists becoming Congregationalists and the liberals becoming Unitarians.
  • cwwc 6y ago
    Superb point. To quote Holmes, ‘Most people are willing to take the Sermon on the Mount as a flag to sail under, but few will use it as a rudder by which to steer.’
  • drewg123 6y ago
    My great Aunt who is 95 belongs to a UU church, and remembers when the Universalists merged with the Unitarians. She says "The Universalist brought too much God stuff into church and wrecked it"
• whiddershins 6y ago
  In my opinion the main problem for religion right now is the failure to explain their arguments at the highest intellectual level, publicly, consistently. Once I was exposed to better theology and philosophy of Christianity I was blown away. Edward Feser’s ‘The Last Superstition’ helped open this up. I have no idea why the level of discourse is on average so primitive, I think church leaders have been systematically underestimating the populace.
  • sarabad2021 6y ago
    The same can be said of science in that science can't explain the supernatural or the after-life. Science was never meant to explain those things but we have tried to make it a replacement by trying to naturalize everything. Things that go beyond this realm of understanding and reason.
    • seneca 6y ago
      > Science was never meant to explain those things but we have tried to make it a replacement by trying to naturalize everything. Things that go beyond this realm of understanding and reason. Criticizing a flashlight for being a poor saw is a flaw in the criticizer, not the flashlight.
    • 34679 6y ago
      The whole point of science is to explain "the supernatural". Lightning was once considered "supernatural". Now it isn't. Science did that. Science does not acknowledge the existence of an afterlife because there is no evidence to support such a conclusion.
    • wussboy 6y ago
      In my opinion it explains both perfectly well: The human mind is not perfect and sometimes it gets confused, believing that the supernatural is real and that there is life after death even though time and again these phenomena turn out to have completely naturalistic explanations. If you want to go one level deeper I encourage you to read Darwin’s Cathedral where you’ll learn this tendency to believe in the supernatural is not a bug but a feature.
• CedarMills 6y ago
  As a believer and someone who attends church regularly, this is sad but not unexpected. From my own personal experience - if the church cannot answer questions clearly, their members will look for answers somewhere else. A lot of churches unfortunately are so elementary in their teaching or turn to "feel good preaching" (see Elevation Church). The longterm effect is that a person ends up being tired of getting the same "baby food" and they look to other places. The churches where theology is solid (and clear) tend to be stronger in number and in regular attendance.
  • rchaud 6y ago
    What are the questions that church leaders are getting from their flock these days? Some big questions are being debated in society, sure, but the church's position on a lot of things is set in stone, is it not? Maybe this is my ignorance talking, but I thought those with active church membership continue to go to participate in social events and make friends/partners?
    • objectivetruth 6y ago
      The Christian Church has been getting steadily less monolithic for the past 1700 years or so. Some of the topics being discussed in our (US) church in the past couple of years: * the devastating personal and economic toll of the pandemic and how we can help individually and in aggregate * race relations in the US and the history of injustices caused by racism, including police brutality, and how we can respond in our daily lives * LGBTQ-related topics, including the ability of people of different sexual identities to participate fully at all levels of the church hierarchy * the environmental impact of our actions at the personal level all the way up to the institutional level as it pertains to human-caused climate change You can find many churches in the US with people that believe in every possible belief related to all of these issues. No, it's not just potlucks and singles nights :-)
  • bko 6y ago
    What are those questions for which you seek answers that you believe some churches are not adequately addressing?
• ubermonkey 6y ago
  I suspect one factor in the declining membership is shared with other mid-century social groups that have also dwindled (e.g., men's lodges): it's easier to find community elsewhere. For my parents -- born in 1940 -- church and men's service clubs/lodges were the primary areas of social interaction outside work. Dad ran his own veterinary practice, so his social interaction there was limited (I mean, everybody worked for him). Mom stayed at home until the late 70s. Church was the center of their social life. Now, nobody wanted to say that out loud; it was all about the faith. But that's what it was. In my life I've had no need for that, because people of my generation (b 1970) have generally found other communities of support/friendship/connection. None of my friends are Masons, either.
  • at_a_remove 6y ago
    Men's lodges, fraternal organizations, and so on around here tend to have a religious underpinning of specific faiths, or seem to be charities of some kind with a connection to religion. As such, I think declining church membership would drag them down as well. I wonder if men's clubs exist which are neither, just completely secular. I haven't been able to find any when searching, aside from The Club, which technically fits but as a bathhouse for hookups, wasn't really what I had in mind. I know lodges centered around professions more or less fell apart, and perhaps the last vestige of secular groups would be country clubs. It's hard to tell how much of this is just "people aren't joiners anymore" and how much is declining church membership.
    • Robotbeat 6y ago
      men’s Groups are now often political in nature. Social justice groups (which are not that secular, actually), libertarians, militias. Church membership declined. Qanon membership soared.
    • ubermonkey 6y ago
      It's definitely not true that all men's lodges/clubs were religious in nature. The big three service clubs (in the US, at least) are Rotary, Kiwanis, and Lions, and none of them have ever been religious in nature. (Though certain in the eras and areas where they had the biggest membership, the populations would be overwhelmingly American protestants -- but that's demographics, not organizational affiliation.) Freemasonry may or may not be "religious" depending on your definitions, but has traditionally been a target of some faiths due to perceived conflict between the club and the church.
• AuthorizedCust 6y ago
  So many of the comments here are affirming what I have long observed: much anti-religious sentiment (“much”, not “all”!) is actually a reaction to fundamentalism, which is the bad theology of scriptural literalism, which brings heresies like hating LGBT, insisting the Bible is also a science textbook, superstitious views of certain Middle Eastern lands, and more. Growing up as a mainline Protestant, I thankfully didn’t have much of this to react against in my own churches. But we saw the bad fundamentalist theology in Southern Baptist or too many independent churches (those two mentioned because they were dominant where I grew up). I can appreciate the difference. I’m still happily a mainline Protestant. I’m not instructed to hate anyone, I’m not told to vote a particular way. I’m not going to church to check in my brain to a charlatan who saves me from an angry (false) god. I’m going to be better and to grow my relationship with God.
  • jboynyc 6y ago
    Not just other commenters, the (sociological) science backs you up as well: political backlash is a big reason for recent disaffiliation. https://sociologicalscience.com/articles-vol1-24-423/ https://sociologicalscience.com/articles-vol1-24-423/
    • burlesona 6y ago
      That’s the predictable, and in the end, best outcome. The most foolish thing cultural “christianity,” could do is pick a political party. Now that we’re a generation past that, the so-called “religious right” has evolved into a thin veneer of pseudo-religion over a very specific political faction, and that shallow falseness is driving most people away. As for actual Christianity and those who study it, in many ways the teachings of Christ could not be more different than the “religious right” advocates today. Christ taught followers to love their neighbors as themselves, and not to judge other people, because in God’s eyes all humans were equally and impossibly flawed. When a mob formed to stone an “adulteress,” as was the prescribed punishment for that “crime” in ancient Judaea, Jesus said “let the person who is without sin throw the first stone.” The mob dissolved, and he told the woman she was forgiven. Note that this is not what the religious-political faction of Jesus day wanted either, and in the end they arranged for him to be crucified as a result.
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• lettergram 6y ago
  I’d like to see a comparison between synagogue membership over time. My wife and I are not actively religious but think it’s definitely a great framework and moral code. Particularly, it creates a community one can choose to leave or join of good people, working together for the common good of each other. I grew up Lutheran and don’t necessarily believe in god, but I believe in the value code. Which is really what’s important. I think that’s what’s lacking these days, tbh.
• deleted 6y ago
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• softwaredoug 6y ago
  I enjoyed my pretty low key episcopal church upbringing. There was very little dogmatism, and mostly it created a framework for community activities and service. Many of my friends in youth group were agnostic or atheist. And the church felt welcoming to everyone. I wish something could replace this in my life. Something that felt softly mandatory that brought people together in a spirit of togetherness and service.
  • mehlmao 6y ago
    Do you mind if I ask why you aren't going to a church now? I had a very similar experience growing up involved in an Episcopalian church. I met a lot of interesting people who really cared about the community. Not long after I graduated and moved away, the church split over the introduction of Young Life (and their associated fundamentalist beliefs) as a replacement for the home-grown youth group. It wasn't until I was an adult that I learned about my church's past. The priest there in the 80's molested kids who were part of the Boy Scout troop that met in the church's basement. Some church members found out, they contacted the diocese, and he was shuffled away to another state. I was horrified. Older church members, people I had a great deal of respect for and spent most of my life looking up to, let him get away with it. They didn't go to the police, they went to the church, which allowed him to keep abusing children. Looking for that sense of togetherness and community service, I've tried going to other churches since then. But deep in my mind, I know that all of the true believers will look the other way. The church I grew up in was a good influence on me and I met a lot of great people, but now that I'm getting close to having children of my own, I don't think there's any church I'd feel was right to take them to. The odds of anything awful happening are low, but knowing that these communities would not help them has completely turned me away.
    • softwaredoug 6y ago
      I probably don't go because of a mix of: 1. Loss of faith in the institutions behind church (for reasons you cite). Similar debate around having a gay bishop in the episcopal church 2. I personally don't hold christian beliefs 3. Local church politics: My family wasn't involved in running the church, so we rarely saw the "politics". But in one local unitarian church I started to go to, the hardcore churchgoers seemed to always have some controversy, usually around left-leaning ideals. Like many things these days, it's hard to just be casually involved. Those casually involved get turned-off (like the same reason I rarely go on twitter). And the vocal, hardcore folks stay involved, creating various biases towards extremism or a certain point of view.
• deleted 6y ago
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• BenoitEssiambre 6y ago
  Whether this is good or bad depends on what the substitute is. Whatever it is, imo, intellectuals should be more involved in communities that cater to simpler folks. Otherwise, these often get co-opted by nefarious forces. See Qanon, Trumpism etc. Hopefully this is not people jumping to these.
  • Applejinx 6y ago
    But that IS intellectuals getting involved. QAnon is quite cleverly constructed. Just because it uses mechanisms similar to Nigerian email scams doesn't mean it's not intelligently constructed and administered. There are already intellectuals involved, they're just not pursuing disinterested goals.
    • BenoitEssiambre 6y ago
      I meant non evil intellectuals who oftentimes don't want to have anything to do with these communities which leaves them open to be manipulated by the evil ones.
• drewg123 6y ago
  I used to think that the lower church membership went, the better off we'd be as a nation, because we'd be more rational on average. I still think so, but I'm less hopeful now. The events of the last few years have called that idea into question, as the rampant irrationality that I used to associate with fundamentalists seems to have moved from the pulpit to the airwaves and now to social media.
  • busterarm 6y ago
    Sadly, fundamentalism does not limit itself to religion. Yet no matter how much you draw the obvious parallels in the social/political sphere, the teams are decided and criticism of any kind labels you a heretic. Fundamentalists lack critical self-awareness.
• randomopining 6y ago
  Obviously the overrated part of church is the ceremony and mystique, and the past wrongs of the church. The underrated part is the sense of community and communal energy... which even though I'm agnostic, I envy, and would consider going some day.
• snicker7 6y ago
  Speaking as a person of faith, religion has been largely obsoleted by social media and political tribalism. Most people get their moral compass from Instagram or Twitter or whatever. Celebrities, op-end writers, talk show hosts, and corporations have become the bishops of the new American moral universe.
  • deleted 6y ago
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  • soared 6y ago
    I don’t think anyone is getting their morals from Instagram.
    • timbit42 6y ago
      The think the OP was also implying "lack of morals" when they said "morals".
    • ed25519FUUU 6y ago
      Find the influencers of our generation and you'll find the moral role models.
• dukeofdoom 6y ago
  I see religion as being a useful counterbalance to government power. I'm a little concerned how cultish politics is getting in the US. Racism is the new original sin. You can just call anyone racist to publicly condemn them as unforgivable sinners. I was very concerned about Churches being burned down in last year's Riots, the cult of personality around Trump, and the new woke culture that sees individuals as only members of some oppressed/oppressive group. Transhumanism which I feel started with the abuse of steroids, is already upon us, and soon tech will give us the power to change and manipulate human DNA. Turns out many people don't like their bodies and would like to change them on mass. Will the changes have unforeseen consequences? Seems to me like things could go horribly wrong. The ultimate irony would be that we would end up looking like the depicted deformed and grotesque biblical demons. The obesity pandemic is already pushing many people that way. And thats probably a consequence of injesting too much plastic, and damaging hormone levels and pure gluttony. I think at its best, Religion abstracts some useful concepts like humility, guilt, responsibility, and so on, into stories and parables and makes the insignificant individual feel like their life is important and part of a grander story. It adds the practice of rituals, and adds more exposure to art, music and community and self reflection, and reduces death anxiety. And it marks significant life milestones with community celebrations. Is it better to be a realist, or is it better to add a layer of mental abstraction around reality. And feel like you are part of a (Movie) script and act accordingly.
  • busterarm 6y ago
    There's some interesting points made here. At the very least, I think there would be an immense value to society to add to our school curricula education about liking and taking care of our bodies. Not just Health and Gym classes.
  • antattack 6y ago
    Last thing one should want is to give religion power. People need better education, more tolerance and less judgement.
    • dukeofdoom 6y ago
      But that in itself is a value judgment. You go from an "is" to an "ought" on how humans should behave. There's no logical reason why we "ought" to do any of these things. These are just a reflection of your values, and what you perceive in your mind would make the world a better place. This is the same type of religious "value" based thinking you are criticizing without realizing it. Why is "education" more important than a million other things. What if my son values playing sports more. He could easily make the argument that the world would be a better place if we played more sports. For one, less obesity. For two, more fun. We all be happier if we just played more sports. Why should I take your value judgments over my sons.
• jordanmorgan10 6y ago
  It's interesting to read a HN thread regarding theology. It seems there is quite an interest in the topic, and affirms another thing I tend to see: That many in this field identify as a Christian but don't really seem interested in saying so unless it's in a thread which expressly mentions it. Maybe it's my own bias and I'm just viewing it that way, as a Christian myself, as it feels hard to talk about it within the tech sphere with nuance and empathy.
  • CydeWeys 6y ago
    > That many in this field identify as a Christian but don't really seem interested in saying so unless it's in a thread which expressly mentions it. Wouldn't it just be off-topic in other threads though? It's not a surprise it doesn't come up when it's not the subject of a given conversation. I have all sorts of interests that I don't tend to bring up until there's a conversation specifically about them.
  • ketzo 6y ago
    Cultural Christianity versus theistic Christianity in action. Anecdotal, but many, many more people had to go to church as kids than actively believe today. The problem is that this leads to people who feel entitled to a space in the conversation (because it was part of their upbringing), but bring very little love or understanding to it. (And I say this as someone who was raised in the Church and left it pretty early on).
• throwaway0b1 6y ago
  This may be a very bad idea. But as (in the words of the at-present top comment) a fundamentalist adhering to scriptural literalism (aka a conservative Lutheran) [addendum: who does not hate everyone], I feel compelled to offer to answer questions anyone might have for me, so AMA. I don't really want to individually respond to everything throughout the rest of the comments, but I will begin by saying that most churches have either very little by way of actual bible-based doctrine, or very little by way of in-depth theology. (Prosperity gospel/megachurches fall in the latter, a decent portion of other churches - eg. the Roman Catholic Church - fall in the former.) Responses will be sporadic throughout the day, I'm a bit busy at the moment, but I'll do my best to get to it.
  • bopbeepboop 6y ago
    Thanks for doing this! (Don’t have questions; just encouraging more not-mega church public Christianity.)
    • throwaway0b1 6y ago
      You're welcome! Hopefully it goes well.
  • xivzgrev 6y ago
    Here’s some to kickstart things. Genuinely curious 1) did you grow up in the church you currently belong to or did you join later? If the former, did you ever explore other ones? Why/why not? 2) there can be doubt about what the Bible literally says given the number of authors, editors, and time involved. For example, someone chose x word when translating to English, that also could have meant y. Or, x book was included and y book was not. What are your thoughts on this? 3) there are a lot of rules in the Bible, especially one like Letiviticus (sp?). As someone adhering to literalism, do you aspire to follow them all? If not, which ones do you? If so, how do you deal with (likely) not following them all? 4) how do you keep your faith nourished / going in today’s society, where membership in churches is declining and Internet denizens can have a lot of skepticism toward religion?
    • 6y ago
• danpalmer 6y ago
  It looks like the U.S. is running along a similar trend to the U.K. (and I'd guess many other countries, but I'm from the U.K.). Church attendance falls, followed by membership, followed by people considering themselves "religious". One of the tricky things in the UK over the last 3 censuses has been accurately capturing this, so that government funding and policy can be best targeted. People think "I celebrate Christmas so I'm a Christian", while never attending church, not identifying with any particular type of Christianity, not being able to talk about the content of the Bible even in a very general sense, and only generally thinking that there's probably some sort of god or something, and hopefully an afterlife. This was so ingrained that the British Humanist Association (I believe humanism in the US is very different, here it's a secular belief system) had a big campaign during the previous census (2011) titled "If you're not religious, for God's sake say so!". Despite not going to church or really taking part in any organised religion, people really don't want to be non-religious. I think we could better recognise this sort of generic "spiritualism".
• kypro 6y ago
  Although I believe religion is outdated and in many ways I'm happy to see it in decline in the West, I do worry about the side effects the decline of religion has. It seems to me that people my age today (late twenties, early thirties) are extremely self-centred and struggle to see any higher pursuit in life than self-satisfaction. This is in contrast to the few religious people I know who are far more family focused and believe in self-sacrifice in the pursuit of what they believe to be morally good - charity, children, community, etc. As a teenager who went to a catholic school I often found myself in trouble for mocking things we were taught from the bible, but as I've grown up I've come to appreciate religion and the role it has historically played in our society. For example, my sister has made a lot of bad decisions in life - drug use, having a child to get a council house, arrested for violent behaviour, etc. Something that made me reflect on my attitude towards religion was that I realised my sister would likely be in a much better place today if we lived in a more religious society. Many of the legal things she did for self-satisfaction would have been look down upon just a few decades back and if that happened she may not be the way she is today. I see this all the time as someone who grew up in a poor area of my city, the lack of religion promoting family values and self-sacrifice is clearly hurting those on the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder the most. Almost everyone young female in my family is a single mother living in government housing today, many struggling with drug addiction and mental illness. This just wouldn't have been the case in past decades. If you educated and middle-class you're far more able to go a bit crazy in your twenties before you you settle down in your thirties. If you're able to responsibly navigate between self-satisfaction and self-sacrifice then religious values are less important and perhaps even seen as a burden in your life, but if you have less self-control and perhaps don't have the intellect to form your own secular spiritual meaning to life, then what else is lack but the pursuit of self-satisfaction? Sorry for the ramble. This is a topic I think about a lot because I'm so split in my thoughts towards religion today. I don't think we should go back to religion, but I suspect we might need to find a substitute for it.
  • ookdatnog 6y ago
    > I realised my sister would likely be in a much better place today if we lived in a more religious society. I'm really not so sure about that. For instance, the top 10 states in terms of teenage pregnancy in the US is mostly dominated by religious states[0]. I'm not sure I've ever seen a stat like crime, drug use, etc, where the more religious states perform better than more secular states. Of course, other factors might influence these stats. But at the very least it seems that, even if religion isn't actively harmful, it doesn't seem to be helping all that much. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy_in_the_United_States#By_region https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_pregnancy_in_the_Unite... ; the data is from 2010 though
• malwarebytess 6y ago
  Edgy opinion: religion is useful for guiding the human inclination to look for causes and reasons. All people will believe all kinds of nonsense, some people fanatically, so it's useful to make sure these people have healthy outlets. Lower church membership may not be the atheist utopia one desires, especially in the west with our rampant and unapologetic individualism.
• deleted 6y ago
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• wwarner 6y ago
  For the life of me, I cannot remember his name and I cannot find a reference, but there is a post-war German theologian who celebrated the kind of personal Christianity that doesn't require a church hierarchy, arguing that acting independently with the values of the faith without being told what to do is the best outcome.
  • randcraw 6y ago
    Well Martin Luther certainly qualifies, but I can't guess what war you have in mind that took place before 1517.
    • wwarner 6y ago
      Might be Karl Rahner.
• avasylev 6y ago
  I've never been religious but for 30+ years I always considered myself christian. If asked on such survey, I'd answer with the church I used to go twice a year for Christmas and Easter. One day I watched Ricky Gervais give interview on Cobert show (who's religios). And geez those jokes made me realize I'm actually and atheist. Now I would answer with no affiliation. From my friends observation, many are on the same edge, where practically they are gone from church, but may still show up on survey. In such cases those membership rates are going to drop a lot and fast.
• for_i_in_range 6y ago
  “God does not exist; but don’t tell my servant, lest he slit my throat in the night.” - Voltaire
• yalogin 6y ago
  Looks like I am the only person surprised that the membership is this high, even more so that it was in the 70% range just 20yrs ago. I admit my guess is based on my interactions but I was expecting it to be in the 20-30% range.
  • timbit42 6y ago
    If you are thinking of Christianity, this poll included Judaism and Islam. Christianity's numbers are around 33%.
• e_commerce 6y ago
  "Official" church membership way down, membership at new dangerous religions like BLM and Wokeness way, way up!
• muad_kyrlach 6y ago
  I can only speak from experience about Christianity: I have found very few sects of christianity that don't have some mixture of 1. arbitrary claim to absolute certainty regarding the "Will of God" --Bible is inerrant, the denomination's understanding of it is inerrant, etc 2. Non-sensical "lesson-of-the-week" structure" where very few actually make any progress on any lesson 3. blind acceptance that the church has to be a functional business. the first one is the most hurtful -- the leaders offer certainty when certainty is far from possible. It amounts to "God gave you your brain, but it's mostly for decoration, you don't need to think when it comes to your faith, just accept what we tell you/is written." The business side can also be hurtful. I was reading recently about scientists attempt to measure cognitive differences between the religious and non-religious -- by looking at things like math proficiency. I think that's really missing the impact of religion. Religion doesn't make you bad at math, but it likely makes you bad at 1. finances -- how much pct of your income are you regularly giving away? 2. philanthropy -- how much of that income really went to helping people vs church administration, continuing the Sunday lesson? 3. Political engagement -- i would hypothesize that being religious leads folks to more frequently vote against their own self-interests.
• throw7 6y ago
  I think life, in general, is pretty good and has been in the U.S. As a result, it's not surprising to see the numbers decline over the years. That said, religion isn't going anywhere. The metaphysical questions we have are still the same since the dawn of mankind.
• jbluepolarbear 6y ago
  I went to a Protestant Christian school for 9 years and church until I was 16. As someone with learning disabilities, Tourette’s, and (at the time) gender identity issues; Christian’s made my life a living hell for things I had no control over.
• IG_Semmelweiss 6y ago
  Church membership i think ignores the fact about the explosion in alternative beliefs and practices. For example, meditation, san pedro, ayahuasca use etc has exploded tremendously and I think there is a significant cross section of the former religious population that have found relief from daily hustle via these alternative non-denominational activities.
• deleted 6y ago
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• mrfusion 6y ago
  I think a lot of people have thrown the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. There’s so much value in being spiritual but we get offended by the extremes of religion and toss it all away.
• mrfusion 6y ago
  Ten years ago I would have said this is a good thing. But now I’m actually terrified of whatever replaces religion for these people.
• benja123 6y ago
  I am agnostic, but, I don’t necessarily see this as a good thing. I was raised Jewish and as a kid we would go to the reform synagogue on and off throughout the year. My parents are completely secular (atheist and agnostic), and yet that did not stop my mom from becoming President of the local reform synagogue, so at least for a period it was a big part of my life. The main benefit of the synagogue, and I assume it is the same one you get from being involved in your local church, is the community that is built around it. When someone was sick, someone died or someone needed help, people from the community were always the first ones to help. They would took care of the poor, help the weak and also the elderly. They would lead food drives and volunteer efforts. I have yet to find any community that is as strong and as helpful as the one that was built around the local synagogue. There is something unique about places of warship that drives people to be more generous and helping. My only assumption is the communities they build are passed down from generation to generation with their own traditions which makes them stronger. As an adult, I don’t go to synagogue at all. The weird thing is I miss it even though I hated it as a kid. One last thing. I see a lot of hatred for religion in the comments and as of late in general. Please don’t hate! Understand that extreme anti-religion is no better and no less dangerous than people that take religion to the extreme. Yes, religion has caused or been excuse for a lot of bad and intolerant behavior. You aren’t going to end intolerance by being intolerant yourself. Assume best attentions, judge people by how they act and help through education to change their misconceptions.
• justupvoting 6y ago
  A lot of clever folks in here attempting to tailor the Emperor's new clothes. As to whether church membership slipping below the 50% mark is a good or bad thing for America, I'm agnostic.
  • renewiltord 6y ago
    HN has a strong bias in the same direction as Malcolm Gladwell and the "well ackchually"s of the Internet. This constant search for a counterintuitive result or explanation means that most comments on things just end up with a massive contrarian bias. This makes sense. After all, no one is writing "oh cool" and no one is upvoting that.
• gobrewers14 6y ago
  Great news. At some point, hopefully humanity will realize religions are the myths of our less enlightened ancestors and we can all move on to something more interesting and productive.
• wayneftw 6y ago
  If Alan Watts or someone like him were speaking near me every Sunday, I'd be there every week.
• wing-_-nuts 6y ago
  I grew up in a fundamentalist christian church. I'm now an agnostic deist (I don't know if god exists, but if he does, there doesn't appear to be much evidence that he intervenes much in his creation). My moral code has evolved and simplified from biblical to 'if it doesn't hurt anybody, it's fine'. Frankly, I can't be bothered with any belief system which relies exclusively on a 2000 year old book and isn't measured by real world effects today.
• chad_strategic 6y ago
  My experience with religion came via Mark Twain. "In high school or at some point in my high school years, I read Huck Finn. There was a part in the book where Huck has to save Jim and if he saves Jim, he knows the church has taught him that he will go Hell. Huck denies the teaching of the church and saves his friend." The following is my recollection of the book, it might not be exactly accurate but it is the way I remember it and or want to remember. Keep in mind, I read this close 30 years ago, so I read it without our current revisionist/racists history perspective. Please try to take my comments and thoughts only in the light of religion. I do remember that reading that passage or that part in the story, saying to myself. “FTS”! I can’t reconcile this in my conscience. Religion is definitely the opiate of the masses. Look no further than the last few US elections. At that point, I disavowed any organized religion and started listening to Bad Religion.
• justinzollars 6y ago
  Observation (please don't hate me): Originally I am from Ohio and I've lived in SF for 12 years. I am not very religious. In college, I lived next door to a cult like "Young Life" Christian club. I notice people with extreme left wing fervor in the Bay Area behave in a similar manner to the Young Life crew. My thesis is: Their political beliefs are an independent variable and are not important. Had they grown up in a red state, their personality type would have been selected for and they would have become religious young life members rather than left wing activists. People who are right wing in the bay area, have more in common with those who were not religious in the midwest, going against the grain of society. In short politics has become a modern religion and is replacing religion. And your personality type is being selected for, in your proclivity to join a group; either religious or political.
  • nathanaldensr 6y ago
    So "meet the new boss, same as the old boss." They all want to lord over me, whether religious or political. The distinction isn't important to me as I'm forced to bear their crosses regardless. FWIW I don't hate you. :)
• consumer451 6y ago
  At the risk of sounding very cold-hearted I am very happy to see this happening. At its core, belief in a higher power is magical thinking. Considering the problems we face as a species, we can no longer afford magical thinking.
• lazyninja987 6y ago
  I am interested in one more detail. average family income for all church members. I have observed hindus, muslims, christians, jains. My observation so far is, religious fervor is directly to 2 factors. 1. is that religion a minority in a given state ? 2. whether you grew up in prosperity (not wealth, but above middle class)? societies which are poor tend towards fundamentalism. religion gives some sort of escape place where poor might forget their harsh reality and usually its provides some sort of alt-reality that their after life is going to be good. rich people who already seen those comforts dont search for such answers. Also, if that particular religion is minority in a country, the religion offers companionship and keep the group close. also, it forms the main identity of that group which is difficult to get away from. for the above reasons, In india, there are a lot of atheist hindus, but not many athiest muslims or atheist christians.
  • krastanov 6y ago
    I have the impression this does not necessarily apply to the US. There are plenty of examples of... vicious(?) fundamentalists that are rich and of the ethnic majority.
    • ketzo 6y ago
      I think that the people about whom you're talking tend to use fundamentalist religion as means to enforce existing power structures from which they benefit; there's a reason that modern American conservatism is so inextricably tied to the evangelical churches, and why Southern Baptism was once used to justify the capture, sale, forced labor, and breeding of human beings with different skin colors. I guess what I'm saying is that your point is not mutually exclusive with the comment to which you're replying, and that extreme religious values can have multiple "purposes," explicit or implicit.
    • lazyninja987 6y ago
      ketzo is accurate. if a rich person is supporting fundementalism, its mostly to consolidate their power and protect his/her wealth. Rich hindus allways have means to do so with out resorting to fundementalism. for example, ambani supported congress (which is anti-hindu), and when congress got weak, he started support BJP (which is pro-hindu). In both cases it is to protect his own interests. Same is happening in US.
• KboPAacDA3 6y ago
  As a believer that Jesus is God and he controls the whole universe and the lives of all people, I am not too concerned about church membership percentages in a particular nation in history. Whoever God calls to be his children will follow him, and they will find each other. Jesus is the head of the church, and people who don't believe in him have no part in it. I would hope that unbelievers would hear the good news of Jesus and be drawn to him and have their hearts changed.
• karmasimida 6y ago
  I don't care about religions in general. It is not necessary to my daily operations, and I have no interests to have it intertwined with my life either. Why would I assume there is some God anywhere anyway?
  • timbit42 6y ago
    Before science was a thing, people used the idea of God to explain the unexplainable. Today science explains those things for us.
    • nathanaldensr 6y ago
      Science cannot explain love, nor why it is better to love than to be selfish. Science says survival of the fittest, so why aren't we all killing each other in a quest to stand atop the pile of bones? There is more to the universe than what it observable. This in and of itself does not mean there is or is not a God. Spirituality provides us the motivation to be ethical and good instead of selfish and evil.
• harles 6y ago
  Oh good, HN can finally settle all questions of religion and moralism.
• bushbaba 6y ago
  A post religious society might not be a better one. Religious institutions bring a sense of community and belonging. They are a large powerhouse in many social programs. Heck most children likely are preschooled through religious institutions. I fear that post religion we could very well end up worse off.
• forrestbrazeal 6y ago
  My personal observation (having left a fundamentalist background, though still identifying as Christian) is that hardcore young-earth creationism of the Ken Ham variety has driven a ton of deconversion in my generation. Ken Ham & his ilk have been teaching for decades, explicitly and repeatedly, that if you do not buy into their specific 6-day literal interpretation of Genesis, then you might as well be an atheist. [0] This line works great to rile up the faithful, but... Fast-forward to today, and you have an entire generation of young adults who can no longer square YEC with reality, going: "Huh, I guess I'm an atheist then?" Ham-flavored fundamentalism rules huge swaths of orthodox Christian tradition out of bounds, and it's been devastating for the future of the American church. [0] https://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separation/a-flood-of-nonsense-ken-ham-s-false-dichotomy https://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separation/a-flood-of-nonse...
  • brundolf 6y ago
    Trumpism (and the past couple decades of political lead-up to it among fundamentalists) being the other big one. I think these are the two major forces that actively drive people away.
  • dcolkitt 6y ago
    Except, mainline Protestants are shrinking at a much faster rate than evangelicals. If church attrition was driven by a rejection of fundamentalism we wouldn't expect Unitarians and Episcopalians to be losing members faster than Baptists and Pentecostals.
    • forrestbrazeal 6y ago
      There are certainly other factors at play in the decline of mainline Protestant churches. I'm not sure that evangelicalism's problems (subject of my comment) imply anything about whether they should be shrinking faster or slower than other types of churches.
  • LeifCarrotson 6y ago
    How did you personally abandon fundamentalism and end up still identifying as Christian? I grew up learning from Ken Ham (literally shook his hand at summer camp), but I'm now a genuinely atheistic apostate and I can't comprehend what you have left of Christianity when you abandon a literal understanding of the Bible. Young Earth Creationism pseudoscience is one reason, but there are tons of others. Ham, I think, is mostly right: Either (1) it's all true, in which case you have all the problems of fundamentalism and have to disbelieve science. Or (2) or some subset of the factual claims it makes are true - the Bible as miraculously inspired and truthful, YEC, the very existence and nature of the supernatural, Old Testament miracles, New Testament miracles, eschatology, and so on - but as Ham eloquently points out, once you abandon one of the claims that the supposedly truthful book makes, you call them all into question. Or (3) none of it is true, it's all fiction, in which case you can use whatever you want as a moral framework, but it has no special value. In that case, it's merely a socially evolved construct like every other superstition throughout the history of our species.
• arunc 6y ago
  Just curious, would this slow down the rate of conversion to Christianity around the globe (India, Africa, etc)?
• prirun 6y ago
  I grew up going to a Christian church: Sunday school when I was younger, then youth choir on Wednesday nights, then regular church service for a couple of years in my early teens. I sort of grew out of it as I got older, because as I started thinking about it more, it made less and less sense. For example, I distinctly remember our youth group leader, who was the wife of the minister, saying in one of our classes that we have to fear God. I didn't get it, and asked her "Why are we supposed to fear someone that loves us?" She didn't have a good answer, because there isn't one; it's another one of those things the Bible says that makes no sense. At some point, for me, there were too many of those and I could no longer pretend that Christianity made sense. To me, the Bible is a major problem for Christianity. If you believe the whole thing, it makes no sense. If you don't believe the whole thing, then it becomes a fragmenting thing where some groups pick and choose these parts and other groups pick and choose different parts. But once you go down the road of "I only believe part of it, you can't take it literally, la la la", you're on a very slippery slope. The Bible is a story book, written by man. It has some good stories, some good advice, and some bad advice. There is no hard scientific evidence that any of the miraculous things that supposedly occurred really did occur. Religious people believe that the Bible is the "word of God". One of my big problems with the Bible is that if it truly was the word of God, doesn't it seem reasonable that he would give us some clues about how we fit into the universe? I mean, our whole planet is a spec of dust in the grand scheme of things. If God invented all this, and the Bible is a sort of road map, wouldn't it make sense to talk a little about the other parts of the universe - the overwhelmingly huge part - and not just our little planet?
  • pnathan 6y ago
    You've accepted a literalist & inerrantist frame of the Bible, which is a very new way of reading the Bible. There are more sophisticated atheisms out there. :)
• jl6 6y ago
  Just remember that the lake gets saltier the more it evaporates.
• deleted 6y ago
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• dotsam 6y ago
  People seek power, and God can be thought of as the highest form of power. Religion empowers some people by building a relationship between them and the supreme power of God. It also offers other empowering benefits like community, tradition and sense of purpose. But our will to power can be satisfied in many ways, and the opportunities for pursuing power have increased over time. Organized religion is being out-competed by alternative sources of satisfaction of the will to power.
• knodi 6y ago
  I’m not surprised and about time. Churches are taken over by the GOP propaganda and used as a blunt weapon to spread lies and false information by the GOP to steal their votes.
• listless 6y ago
  If they threw in the religion of “Anti-Racism”, I’m guessing it’s closer to 100. Human beings seem to need religion. If we find ourselves in a void, we just create new ones. https://www.persuasion.community/p/john-mcwhorter-the-neoracists https://www.persuasion.community/p/john-mcwhorter-the-neorac...
• hacknat 6y ago
  Correction: Since the 1940s "For the first time" is probably not true. This is since Gallup tracked this number. Post WWII church attendance really sky rocketed for reasons that are still not fully understood, but a lot of people think the emergence of the Evangelical movement bears a lot of the responsibility. It's much harder to track pre-WWII numbers, but according to the "Mapping America's Past" authors[1] church attendance was as low as 35% in the 19th century (sometimes). [1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/0805049274/?coliid=I38DOW2LIAPT9J&colid=VD8KIOT3J87V&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it https://www.amazon.com/dp/0805049274/?coliid=I38DOW2LIAPT9J&...
  • hinkley 6y ago
    Do you suppose it has anything to do with all the infrastructure that had to be built out new for the baby boomers? All of a sudden you needed twice as many grade schools, then middle schools, etc. We don't do catholic boarding schools as much any more (too much bad PR of several flavors, for example) but they definitely did at the time. I wonder if the church-going came first or the religious schools did. I think a number of the traditionally religious immigrant waves arrived well before WWI, so that probably doesn't have anything much to do with it, unless those groups had far more children post WWII...
  • captainredbeard 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Awakening https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Awakening
  • perrylaj 6y ago
    In mid-century US, religiosity/faith were also promoted by capitalists as counters to rising global popularity of Communism/Socialism. The 1954 addition of "Under God" to the USA's Pledge of Allegiance was marketed (in part) as a means of differentiating from the Godless Communists. I'd be surprised if this big push toward an obvious "Blessed Nation" wasn't a primary driver in the shift.
• offtop5 6y ago
  Even though I'm an atheist this concerns me since Church is one of the last remaining civic organizations. People need to be apart of an community. In the before times that's how you made friends and meet partners. Now every single indicator of courtship is at all time lows , mental illness is off the charts and we're all miserable. I don't have a solution but I'm afraid of the future we're entering.
  • tonyedgecombe 6y ago
    >Now every single indicator of courtship is at all time lows, mental illness is off the charts and we're all miserable. I'm guessing this has far more to do with political and economic changes than decline in religion.
    • offtop5 6y ago
      Religion isn't the point, you need to be a part of a community to meet people. It's very rare for you to be able to make real friends, or find a mate by staring at a screen all day. Church provides one mechanism, but in the old times you could also join a bowling league or an elks club. Now instead of being a member of a community where your actions are held to account, you can hop on Twitter and call all types of people names. And for what, just so you can spread your anger to other people ?
      • tonyedgecombe 6y ago
        Actually church is a long way down the list in terms of meeting a new partner: https://www.eharmony.com/blog/how-you-meet-your-spouse-matters/ https://www.eharmony.com/blog/how-you-meet-your-spouse-matte...
        • offtop5 6y ago
          I think you're missing my point, church is one of a multitude of ways to be involved in your community, and being involved in your community is the best way to meet a partner. Aside from that, being a part of a community is a fundamental part of mental health. Lost connections is a great book on this topic. And come on, you couldn't find a better source than an online dating site when coming up with courtship statistics ? Overall marriage rates are at all time lows. Strange how this coincides with the advent of online dating. https://www.usnews.com/news/healthiest-communities/articles/2020-04-29/us-marriage-rate-drops-to-record-low https://www.usnews.com/news/healthiest-communities/articles/...
• anonAndOn 6y ago
  The comedian Emo Philips has a well-known joke about religion that may explain some of the decline in membership... "Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!" Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over."
  • deleted 6y ago
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  • brobdingnagians 6y ago
    And yet our society is more polarized than ever. From your anecdote, one would think that declining religion would result in peace and love overflowing in society, but we see the opposite. Public morality cannot be maintained without religion; we will sadly see the end result of that in coming years.
    • 0_____0 6y ago
      ? how do you explain the relative stability of largely secular nations then?
      • ceilingcorner 6y ago
        The two most destructive regimes of the twentieth century were explicitly secular. The stability of modern Western Europe is more of a historical consequence of Pax Americana and the Cold War than secularism.
• tommilukkarinen 6y ago
  Rising standards of living seem to have correlation to suppression of religious instinct. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_instinct https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_instinct I had difficulties understanding religion, until I had few religious experiences in the span of few years. Looking back, it was most definitely some sort of brain chemistry. As environment becomes more stable, brain probably has less chances to get into religious channnels.
• legitster 6y ago
  This misses the forest for the trees: Membership is down at organizations across the board - scouting, group athletics, Rotary clubs, unions, even things like PTAs and neighborhood associations and model train clubs. There is a society wide "apathy" event happening right under our noses. Maybe we're just seeing a new generation moving to new niche groups that aren't being seen yet. But it seems that technology is doing something with our desire to form communal bonds.
  • cochne 6y ago
    Yes I agree. This seems to be a continuation of the trends described in “Bowling Alone”. The book argued in 2000 that television was a contributing factor. It is probably further worsened by the rise in online entertainment since.
  • UweSchmidt 6y ago
    Our "communal bonds" are being replaced by 1-to-n relationships between influencers, streamers, content providers and their "followers".
  • __turbobrew__ 6y ago
    Membership is down at in-person organizations across the board. I doubt the census includes the many different online communities I am a part of. I have friends I have known for 10+ years which I have never met in real life. Friendships which are deeper and longer lasting than anything I have “in real life”.
  • randcraw 6y ago
    I don't see it as apathy. I suspect people are simply choosing to put their time into pursuits other than attending meetings with other people. In the past 20 years, there's been a large rise in the time the average person spends on the social web. In the past 10 years, with the rise of mobile platforms, that time has gone up even more. In addition, streaming media has become very big, thereby consuming even more of our free time. That additional time spent online has to come from somewhere. As Sherry Turkle put it, we are increasingly choosing to be "Alone Together" probably at the cost of old school forms of togetherness like church and social clubs.
• shadowgovt 6y ago
  What will be interesting to observe is how the US adapts to the ongoing need for the dozens of community-gluing charity responsibilities churches have historically taken on in American towns and cities. As church membership diminishes, the resources to do those tasks also diminish. They can certainly be taken on by other charities; I'm curious how frictionless that process will be.
• lykahb 6y ago
  There is an idea of "God-shaped hole" that is an urge to have a belief in something transcendent or greater than oneself. As the organized religion is in decline, politics or activism seem to become a substitute that provides belief, sense of community, and a vision for improving the world. This also explains why there is so little rational discussion across the divide of the political spectrum in the US. The same political views can come from observations and reasoning, or they can be ingrained as a belief and be a part of one's [group] identity. In the former case a rational discussion is possible. In the latter case it turns into a challenge of one's personal integrity and devolves into a fight of the righteous against the heretical other side.
• DonnyV 6y ago
  Good!!! We can finally move forward as a species without the chains of religion.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• agensaequivocum 6y ago
  As a practicing Catholic this is greatly troubling. I truly want all to be saved. I fear "progress" that so many non-religious people will tolerate and irreligious will promote. This is not new. Abortion has been pushed for decades and is the greatest sin of our age. Our generation will be looked back upon the same way we look back at slave holders/traders. Those who dehumanizing the vulnerable to the point were we can kill them because they are not persons. 60 million have been killed since legalization in the US.
  • timbit42 6y ago
    Well, the Bible dehumanizes the unborn so...
  • jhgb 6y ago
    > I truly want all to be saved. But what are irreligious people supposed to do when multiple large groups of people want to "save" them in mutually incompatible ways? Seeing as the largest religious group accounts for something like 30% of the world's population, being religious means at least a 70% chance of being wrong even if there is something supernatural (100% if there isn't). That's a terrible stat figure for life- (and death-)changing decisions.
• lootsauce 6y ago
  “Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship—be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble Truths, or some inviolable set of ethical principles—is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things, if they are where you tap real meaning in life, then you will never have enough, never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly. And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally grieve you. On one level, we all know this stuff already. It's been codified as myths, proverbs, clichés, epigrams, parables; the skeleton of every great story. The whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness.” David Foster Wallace
  • nyghtly 6y ago
    Here's the full speech for anyone who took an interest in this excerpt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CrOL-ydFMI In my opinion, it's one of the best graduation speeches of all time.
    • sharkweek 6y ago
      I have absolutely tried to hard wire the "choose how to think" into my brain. It is never easy. His example of the swerving SUV racing through traffic maybe just possibly driving that way because of a personal emergency stuck with me. I don't have to assume the worst of people who are acting in a way I don't agree with, and to consider this anytime I'm getting worked up over something can be quite helpful.
    • hexane360 6y ago
      I much prefer Stephen Colbert's Northwestern commencement speech: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6tiaooiIo0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6tiaooiIo0 And a transcript: https://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2011/06/colbert-speech-text.html https://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2011/06/colb... > But if we should serve others, and together serve some common goal or idea - for any one you, what is that idea? And who are those people? > In my experience, you will truly serve only what you love, because, as the prophet says, service is love made visible. > If you love friends, you will serve your friends. > If you love community, you will serve your community. > If you love money, you will serve your money. > And if you love only yourself, you will serve only yourself. And you will have only yourself. So no more winning. Instead, try to love others and serve others, and hopefully find those who love and serve you in return.
• pyrrhotech 6y ago
  Hopefully the declines will continue so that we approach the levels in Scandinavia over the next few decades. Religion has been a force of oppression and division for far too long. It has negatively affected my life, to the point that I am nearly estranged from my parents due to religious conflict, so my loathing of it is perhaps more personal than most here. 400 years ago I would have been executed for my atheistic views. 200 years ago I would have been a social pariah. Today my views are largely accepted in silicon valley and among millenials and zoomers on the internet, though I still face discrimination in the bible belt where I happen to live. Progress is being made, however slowly it may seem at times.
• tgorgolione 6y ago
  I just came here to say that I really appreciate most of the civil discussion going on here on all sides. Doesn't seem entirely one-sided or extremely negative. Thanks everyone for keeping it that way!
• jandrese 6y ago
  I grew up attending church weekly but never considering myself religious. As an adult I don't attend but it does leave a hole in my life. That hole is having forced social interactions with members of the community each week. Without church it's much harder to keep up with what everybody is doing, making connections, and networking. It's very hard to organize and keep running secular social clubs. A lot of the infrastructure churches take for granted has to be managed manually and you're at the mercy of venue operators and have to do your own membership drives to get people to show up. It's a lot more work than most people expect.
• Balgair 6y ago
  Because no-one has yet linked the actual poll, here it is: https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axiosam&stream=top https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-... It's a pretty short poll. Here are the highlights that Gallup cites: - In 2020, 47% of U.S. adults belonged to a church, synagogue or mosque - Down more than 20 points from turn of the century - Change primarily due to rise in Americans with no religious preference
• throwaway823882 6y ago
  Cultural politics has replaced religion. I'm sure if you did another poll, 90% of the US would say they are tightly aligned with a single political party and would not befriend/marry/hire someone of a different party. Tribalism and belief systems aren't going away, they're just changing the wallpaper.
• chi_features 6y ago
  I'm not a church-goer and now in my late thirties have seen many, including myself, have significant crises ending up therapy of some kind. Thankfully, these crises have all had successful and revelationary outcomes. Crises such as financial, relationship, burn-out, questioning purpose, depression. In all cases it's been a revelation for the people involved because they were simply unequipped to deal with the situation; didn't have the tools in their toolkit. It dawned on me that as a kid I did go to church as part of school, and there I would receive almost daily "counselling", or at least broaching life issues, challenges and philosophical concepts regularly. When not a church-goer, where does one get this same level of regular counselling, self-improvement or self-analysis? I'm not advocating religion though I feel like the concept of meeting regularly and talking about big issues is very positive, and I feel overlooked.
  • notsureaboutpg 6y ago
    I became a church-goer (mosque-goer) recently and I never tell this to people in person, but that is truly the best place for counseling for weaning off addictions, etc. I know everyone will link me to a story of someone in a Church who did Churchy Narcanon or something and died or how these programs are ineffective, etc. But I'm not talking about programs and therapy, I'm talking about the message that you are in control of your destiny and you are responsible for what you do in this world even if no one sees it. That simple message is something you'll never hear in any therapists office, no doctor's office, no social scientist will tell you this, no think tank, no shelter, no rehab clinic. Most people today are too afraid to say this. They want to blame someone else for the issues you have. The government, your skin color, racism, sexism, ageism, unfairness in life, inequality, capitalism, wokeness, cancel culture, etc. Everyone has somewhere else to blame. I found in the church (mosque) that people are willing to be honest with you and tell you that you are designed and made to be able to handle the trials and tribulations of life, and you are the only one who can do that for you and you are responsible for the choices you make while trying to do that, and it's not easy, the solution isn't easy, but it wasn't ever meant to be. I struggled with addictions for a while and that message was what got through to me after attempts at therapy, counseling, etc. Etc. Sure not everyone can do well with it but so many more can than think they can.
• Animats 6y ago
  Not only that, this is self-reported info from a poll.[1] Self-reported church attendance in the US is about 2x higher than what churches report actually showing up. Adherents.com used to have statistics on this. [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-below-majority-first-time.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/341963/church-membership-falls-...
• pengaru 6y ago
  Maybe if they'd stop molesting children and protecting the molesters when it happens they'd have more members. At this point if you're a member you're arguably complicit in some sick organization facilitating child abuse. Good Riddance.
• lend000 6y ago
  I'm amazed it was that high. Shows how much of a bubble I live in.
• airhead969 6y ago
  Magical thinking will never die. Just look at Qanon, health and wellness, and Ruby vs. Python.
• kaydub 6y ago
  My wife and MiL both stopped going to church and no longer will go to their old church due to it becoming a mouthpiece of Trump(ism).
• propogandist 6y ago
  There's no call out of how churches and places of worship / community were all shutdown through 2020 for fear of the virus.
• viscoelastic 6y ago
  It maybe that I'm in my own personal bubble but it strikes me that so many people still invest a significant time and effort into propagating a delusional interpretation of reality. On some level I bear them no ill will, they are free to lead their lives in whatever way it brings meaning and fulfillment. However many people attending a Christian church seem to have aggressive opinion on how others should live their lives. The biggest flaw with religion is their story of an afterlife without any proof or evidence. The consequence is that billions of followers of this delusion devalue the importance of their current biological existence, and that of others. They are told they will have an infinite and wondrous existence in a made up paradise. When this shared delusion is the dominant world view it leads to easily excusable murder and abuse of human beings. For example the genocides of indigenous people by European colonizers or slavery. I suspect our ancestors in a thousands of years will look at this early childhood stage of humanity in shame and contempt for what cruelty this insanity allows.
• freedomben 6y ago
  Are there individual churches that are doing really well and bucking the trend? Maybe an individual church can't tell us much about the broader trends, but it would be interesting to see if people are moving to more extreme churches, or more liberal, etc.
• rajivjain 6y ago
  The Economist published article in this week's edition contrasting the rise of the current left/right fervor to relative decline of the religious fervor. The accompanying image captures this really well - https://www.economist.com/img/b/1000/563/90/sites/default/files/images/print-edition/20210327_USD000_0.jpg https://www.economist.com/img/b/1000/563/90/sites/default/fi.... The full article is here -https://www.economist.com/united-states/2021/03/27/religious-fervour-is-migrating-into-politics https://www.economist.com/united-states/2021/03/27/religious...
  • lalaland1125 6y ago
    I'm not sure this is actually that good of an explanation. Europe has much lower levels of church attendance and doesn't have heavily partisan politics.
    • throwawaymanbot 6y ago
      Europe does not have FOX News/Hard Right Outrage factory spewing 24/7 either.
  • worker767424 6y ago
    Interesting timing. The Atlantic had an article arguing the same thing. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/04/america-politics-religion/618072/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/04/america...
• cassepipe 6y ago
  I think astrology is the new religion taking over the world. So many people I know are into it right now, it's unbelievable. All explain-everything religions tend to end up incompatible with modern life if there isn't a nation state or compact community to support them. Astrology has less broad claims on explaining how the world works but seems to provide a lazy framework to think about people, to explain "Why are people doing what they do"? In this sense we really live in a post modern world : No grand narrative seems to be taking root any more.
• pc2g4d 6y ago
  The need for motivating belief structures, community, ethical guidance, and so on aren't going anywhere. At the same time we see the rise in tribal hyperpartisanship where the political ideology functions much like a religion.
• gremlinsinc 6y ago
  Serious question, how does anyone reconcile the fact that if there's a God, he's a total narcissist? How can a perfect all-father creator be such a narcissist wouldn't that be the opposite of what you'd imagine a god-figure to be? Worship me, come to me, I'm the one and only, no other gods but me... everything happens because of me... worship me or else you'll go to hell. All things I swear a cult leader or Donald Trump or any other narcissist in history would say to their followers and they'd eat it up because they just want someone to tell them how to get through life.
• dooopy 6y ago
  God is Santa for adults. The parents/relatives who tell the lie are the politicians and religious leaders. If you do what we say you'll get heaven/presents, if you don't listen you get hell/coal. These kids are not falling for it anymore.
• chkaloon 6y ago
  What US society is struggling with is what to replace church with. It provided community and mutual support, but combined it with a myth that many could not accept any longer. The big question is what can provide the community and mutual support without the binding myth. There hasn't been a replacement thus far that has taken hold. Also, the combination of online life and recently the pandemic has weakened what local community life still exists.
  • medium_burrito 6y ago
    If our population was better educated, I feel like togas, buggery and acropolises could be a real option. Not more degrees, but well read- history, philosophy, religious literature, science shit, etc. Also, the whole wokespeak has seriously destroyed public discourse- not just from the right but on the left.
    • thephyber 6y ago
      I don’t think generic education / knowledge completely fixes it. Without level-headed critical thinking of all knowledge and teachings, there will always be “sacred” ideas that are culturally off-limits of criticism. Also, “wokespeak” (to the extent that it is a new thing) seems remarkably similar to older concepts of tribe signaling and religions (where members use common terminology and symbols to define in-groups and to declare out groups heretics). I’m happy that the big legacy religions are losing mindshare, but pretending like pure abstract intelligent discussion is a direct replacement confuses why people return to church, temple, etc. Humans seem to crave tradition of conventions, emotional connection with their community, and a reason to bind together for assistance. I haven’t heard a proposal which replaces the church community without reproducing the worst aspects of legacy religions.
  • koboll 6y ago
    >There hasn't been a replacement thus far that has taken hold. The replacement is social media. Is it a good replacement? Absolutely not.
    • 6y ago
• hodder 6y ago
  Thank God!
• jcone 6y ago
  So you've been burned by some folks at a church and you're struggling with the hypocrisy of the whole thing? A lot of us hear you, we’re sorry that happened to you, that stinks. Something inside you knows people aren't supposed to treat each other like that. One thing to consider - the whole reason we have for knowing and understanding the person of Jesus Christ is because of those exact same types of people that hurt you. Jesus called out the leaders of the church in His time for doing all the kinds of things that are driving people like you away. In doing so, He made them so mad, they conspired with their sworn enemies to have Him killed. "Well, anyway, I could never mindlessly worship someone who's so narcissistic he needs my uninterrupted attention." Is that what God wants from you though? Repeated chants? Money? Have you considered a God that cares less about what you can do for Him and more about just being with you? Is it possible that someone who designed you knows what's best for your relationship - keeping you close to Him? "Well, Christians believe in N and I'm !N, so no thanks." Sure, I get it, we want a God that will love us for who we are - just the way we are. But sometimes we're more selective with our love without even asking the question "Yeah, God should love me, but do I love Him whatever way He is?" Are we willing to change any part of ourselves? The problem here is that if there is an intelligent God, He knows that anything we love more than Him becomes our god. Maybe that isn't the kind of relationship he's after. Maybe he wants our whole heart, not just a part. And therein lies the issue, we aren't terribly loving to that kind of God, any of us. Most of us mess up constantly, and the most frequent way we do so is by hurting someone else He created and we elevate ourselves. That's the whole point. Look around, we're about 5 minutes from torching this whole thing to the ground. We blew it. And you know what? After all that, just like the day he was nailed to the cross - He forgives us, He still wants to give us a chance to make amends and draw near to Him. Dear Internet stranger, shut down your IDE for 5 minutes and take some time this Easter to figure this out. Is it possible that God is near? That He wrote Himself into our story and happened to have the name Jesus? That He took the hit and died on a cross and He rose again to make your relationship with Him right? If God loves you, he's not going to drag you somewhere you don't want to go - that wouldn’t be love. Maybe forgiveness and a new start is holding out it's hand, but if it was, would you even be willing to consider it?
  • lalaland1125 6y ago
    I'm not sure if an emotion based evangelical essay is that effective on this particular platform.
• yibg 6y ago
  As someone that grew up non religious I’m genuinely bewildered at the concept of (especially the Christian) God. I understand the sense of community and potential psychological benefits of “knowing”. But in terms of truth seeking, how can something that has never been demonstrated and without any evidence be so widely believed? We have no evidence for the existence of any God, let alone any specific God. Yet so many people claim to know the will and desires of this being. For the believers, why do you believe?
• uncensoredjrk 6y ago
  My Faith isn't based on rules--it's based on forgiveness. I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. Through that my past is washed clean and I'm able to directly communicate with my Heavenly Father and receive the gift of salvation. If you believe in Jesus Christ, it should change your behavior and you'll hopefully live with the fruits of the spirit: Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Faithfulness, Meekness, and self-control. Religion is the various rules and bureaucracy that we put on ourselves. Churches that promote rules and not living out your faith shouldn't be supported. I don't participate in a religion, I try to live my Faith and love others. I choose to participate in a church that supports community and loving others. We aren't meant to go through life on our own, I firmly believe that we need community and spiritual support.
  • fokinsean 6y ago
    As someone who is trying to find their personal beliefs (who also doesn't like religion) I really appreciate your comment. Whenever I used to complain to my dad about how much I disagreed with 'religion' and churches, he always mentioned how 'religion' came from man, and since man is flawed it will follow. It helps to shift one's focus on these principles of living rather than the establishments.