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Elon Musk’s anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board
- MeinBlutIstBlau 6y agoGlad to see the NRLB still has teeth. I was worried it basically fell to the wayside nowadays.
- judge2020 6y agoWhat do you mean in terms of falling to the wayside? It's a politically-appointed board, so you can expect things to change with each administration, but it's not like it did nothing during the Trump administration. This is a pretty good overview of the changes that happened and might be reversed over the next year: https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/the-biden-era-of-labor-law-change-the-8486888/ https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/the-biden-era-of-labor-law...
- mlindner 6y agoTo repeat the key info from this case that makes one question the NRLB ruling (from reddit originally): The tweet is https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998454539941367808 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998454539941367808 > Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcare. where he is talking about the fact that other companies with the UAW do not have stock options for their employees , which he even clarifies in this next tweet https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/999415738967277568 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/999415738967277568 > Exactly. UAW does not have individual stock ownership as part of the compensation at any other company. This is apparently "intimidation". And as for the guy fired > In another incident, a union-affiliated worker, Jose Moran, accessed Workday, Tesla's internal HR system, to look up information about an employee who opposed the union. Moran took a screenshot of the other worker's Workday page—which included his name, photo, job title, and other information—and texted it to another union-affiliated employee, Richard Ortiz. Ortiz wound up using the anti-union employee's picture in a post on a private Facebook group for pro-union Tesla employees. > Richard Ortiz was fired after the incident , but because Tesla did not have standing rules against browsing employees' profiles on Workday or screenshotting them , apparently that's not allowed.
- mlindner 6y agoBecause of all of the above I disagree with the ruling. While yes Elon's tweet is borderline "intimidation", the guy was fired for very legitimate reasons, taking internal company information about employees and basically doxxing them on facebook. The NLRB shouldn't be defending doxxers.
- URSpider94 6y agoHe didn’t Dox them - he didn’t publish their home addresses or phone numbers, he merely said “these people testified on behalf of the company at a state hearing.” This is very clearly protected organizing activity, as documented with multiple case citations in the judge’s ruling. In addition, the employee who was fired didn’t access the internal system. Someone else did, and texted him the photos, which he posted. The person who allegedly accessed the system only got a warning. So, if the concern is the improper access of company systems, then they punished the wrong guy.
- seoaeu 6y ago> Richard Ortiz was fired after the incident , but because Tesla did not have standing rules against browsing employees' profiles on Workday or screenshotting them , apparently that's not allowed. The real question is if they'd have been fired for doing that if they weren't a union organizer. And perhaps more importantly, whether you'd be able to convince a judge that looking up co-workers on an internal directory and/or posting about them privately on Facebook is always a firable offense.
- mlindner 6y agoI don't quite get that objection though, why do you need stated rules that a certain internal site is internal information? Everything is assumed to be internal information unless stated otherwise. That violates any HR policy anywhere. More so the guy was putting it on facebook to literally get people to stalk the guy. So I'm surprised he didn't get criminal charges.
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- DudeInBasement 6y agoIf they want to work for the UAW, then they should join GM or other factories. Why join Tesla if you really wanted to work for the UAW?
- hellomyguys 6y agoOr Tesla’s workers can collectively decide for what’s best for themselves?
- meddlepal 6y agoAnd Tesla should be allowed every opportunity to stop them. I guess Tesla broke the law in this case, but I do not really agree with the ruling and the law. Musk should be allowed to present the possible downsides.
- joshuamorton 6y agoThe downside musk presented was a lie though: a union could absolutely bargain for stock options.
- stretchwithme 6y agoMaybe he has no plans to offer stock because such incentives don't really work when your labor supply is captured by a monopoly.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- zja 6y agoWhy wouldn’t stock options “work” when labor is unionized?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- CameronNemo 6y agodang, can we change the link/title to https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL4N2LN4L0 https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL4N2LN4L0 ? Snippet below: > Tesla CEO Musk's anti-union tweet from 2018 must be deleted: U.S. labor board > Tesla Inc Chief Executive Officer Elon Musk’s 2018 tweet threatening employees would lose their stock options if they formed a union was illegal and should be deleted, the U.S. National Labor Relations Board said on Thursday.
- avs733 6y agoCompletely agree, the use of watchdog here as opposed to “federal labor law board” is problematic vagueness
- pferde 6y agoThe action desribed in that tweet would be illegal, but is the tweet itself illegal? Why should the tweet be deleted? I'd rather keep it for posterity.
- evgen 6y agoIf I happen to mention to you that it would be a shame if my associates and I were to decide to burn your nice little business down in the night, but maybe if you pay us that won't happen I would assume that you would know that a threat was being made. The arson is illegal, but so is the threat to commit it unless you do something that is to my material benefit.
- nightpool 6y agoI would say what happens to the tweet itself is almost an afterthought—it was one of only many violations addressed by the report, along with more mundane stuff, like contract provisions about employees speaking to the press (ruling: it's unlawful to prevent employees from speaking with the press as long as they make it clear they don't represent the company). The NLRB also required them to post notices addressing the tweet at all factories, and it was immortalized in a 55 page public document—not to mention all of the contemporaneous news reports. I think it's very safe to say that posterity is not going to have a hard time finding this tweet
- telaelit 6y agoI wish the NRLB would be much harsher against business owners and executives who engage in anti-union rhetoric and behaviors. People have the right to form unions, lying about losing benefits and lowering pay should be handled much more harshly, there should be actual penalties instead of just having to read a statement and delete a tweet.
- dnautics 6y agofor behaviours, yes, but for rhetoric, you're toeing a very dangerous line up against the 1st amendment.
- cma 6y agoIn the end I think courts will say the promised anti-union rollercoaster and yogurt complexes must be built. Fraudulent promises as part of commerce and labor negotiation are excluded from protection under pretty much every interpretation of the 1st amendment out there. https://elonmusk.today/#frozen-yogurt-rollercoasters https://elonmusk.today/#frozen-yogurt-rollercoasters
- dnautics 6y agoIANAL, but if it's not in writing, I believe you have to prove that musk never intended to deliver, and that's gonna be hard to prove. Otherwise you can nail people down to a few hundred prosecutable offenses a year and that is not a recipe for social success when there are sufficient numbers of vindictive jerks around.
- pseudalopex 6y agoThe article said it was in an email.
- ear7h 6y agoThe 1st amendment does not and should not apply to business matters. You don't even need to look far from the subject matter, Musk has gotten in trouble before over misleading tweets. I don't see anyone bring up the first amendment when discussing corporate fraud. Why is it that executives can be accountable to shareholders but not workers?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- villgax 6y agopeople need to look at the AmazonNews twitter handle, spews corpo BS at every turn almost like some intern got hold of that account
- missedthecue 6y agoThey pretty beautifully baited Sen. Elizabeth Warren into running her mouth today. She wrote - "I'll fight to break up Big Tech so you’re not powerful enough to heckle senators with snotty tweets." If she brings an anti-trust suit against them, it will be so easy for Amazon's lawyers to argue that she is only doing so to violate their first amendment rights, which she full out admitted to today.
- Jonnax 6y agoThey baited Warren by lying about the fact that Amazon warehouse / delivery employees have to urinate in bottles to meet deadlines? The tweets from their account caused significant negative press for Amazon on news and social media across the world. Amazon is a global company, this kind of disdain for employees isn't looked upon as favourably in other countries. It's bad for business. Especially from an official PR channel.
- JBSmoove 6y agoI don't care who was "baited" A US Senator threatening to retaliate and break-up a business because she didn't like tweets about her is straight-up authoritarian thuggery. It's the same shit Trump used to do but when Liz does it...well it's GREAT, she's "fighting for the working class"
- Jonnax 6y agoSo it's okay for a business to treat employees so badly they find they have to piss in bottles? And it's okay for their official PR twitter account to lie and say it doesn't happen? But it's not okay that a politician says they're going to do something about it?
- aborsy 6y agoWorking in France completely changed my view of unions. I sure hope the horrors I saw won’t happen to Tesla.
- vincnetas 6y agoCan you elaborate? Because for me, working in scandinavia, unions looked quite useful and reasonable.
- aborsy 6y agoI had this naive image in mind that unions are labor activists mobilizing against exploitative corporate practices. What I witnessed opened my eyes to the realities on ground, that seemed like almost opposite. As usual, life is more complicated! * The objective of trade unions is not to protect workers and improve their conditions (at least directly). It’s to protect themselves. * In every organization, there exists people with diverse attributes: capabilities, attitudes towards work/life, etc. There are always people who don’t want to or can’t work; and guess what they do? They join unions to protect themselves. Over time union center became international house of suckers and weirdos, each worse than the other. * In an effort to protect themselves, unions politicized the work environment. They put themselves everywhere in key committees, including a union committee having last word on hirings and firings. That made them unfirable. They exploited the coronavirus situation, to blame employers and opponents. A scientific project can become a playground for union politics. I believe in climate change, but not in politicizing it. They seize every opportunity to attack employers and those not aligned with them. The goal is to use any chance to perpetuate an image that they protect people. * Union will plot against any excellence in organization. To minimize contrast, they work hard to fail good people and projects around, or portray them as worker-abusers (ie, the reason that they succeed is because they abuse people). * Unions will fiercely defend status quo and do not allow any constructive reform. The area of specialty that they advertised for themselves was an ancient technology from 1980s (and even that they wouldn’t do it). Every time people suggested to reform the department activities, they refused the proposals. You may not believe it, but department told them, OK, you can keep doing your own activities, we don’t reform them, but other people can start projects in orthogonal directions not related to yours. They still refused (they didn’t want competition) and basically forced everyone to work on their ancient advertised area of activity. * Union engaged in all sorts of abusive practices. It was disgusting to see a lot of them rarely showed up at work (which was strange considering that they put themselves in various committees). I asked a department manager (“responsable”) how come this or that guy shows up at work only few times a year. He said, if you are a known member of union you can do that, and this is an issue in France. They yell, and bully people, create a toxic environment for others, repel and fire those not blending in etc, * Union members felt very entitled and justified their actions by making themselves believe a skewed view of the world. They felt that they are entitled to a life even with ZERO work, and world owes to them. * Unions will be perpetually on strike. What makes you think they will be happy with a laid back 9-5 job with decent pay and great benefits? Even with no work, they still go on strikes. They take tax money from society with little contribution, and make your commute and life periodically miserable. * Unions are especially problematic in public sector, where incentives are aligned with cronyism not meritocracy. A lot of people are hired who lack abilities to perform the work in question. They form large powerful unions. Don’t get me wrong. There might be a place for “traditional” textbook unions. But I don’t know if it ever works in practice. My experience was negative and counterintuitive.
- bendbro 6y agoI will never join a union. Professional certifications, tests, dues, stupid rules about who can do what job when? No thanks. I'll gladly collectively bargain for higher compensation and better conditions though. People who think this Nth attempt at a union won't succumb to the same pitfalls as earlier attempts are the same idiot idealists who think their novel attempt at communism will absolutely succeed. I'm not interested in participating in complicated, untestable, unrevertable systems unless they are pitted against competitive alternatives. Collectives, especially large ones, generally only change by dying and being replaced.
- KaiserPro 6y ago> Professional certifications, tests, dues, stupid rules about who can do what job when? No thanks. That can be part of a union, but then they are democratic, so it depends on who you elect to run things. A bad union is just like a bad employer. > I'll gladly collectively bargain for higher compensation and better conditions though. I mean that's literally the point of a union. they are there to bring the money to take the employer to court. (ideally the threat is enough to get changes.) I do think its cute that you think that a democratic union is akin to communism. There is nothing stopping a workplace from having more than one union, its quite common in the UK.
- AzzieElbab 6y agoThere is a federal board that makes people delete tweets?
- capableweb 6y agoIt makes sense to ask the individual directly to delete a Tweet deemed illegal, since Twitter seems to not act within the laws of their country.
- rsynnott 6y agoThere are limits to free speech. In particular, threatening to do illegal things is often borderline, and can itself be a crime.
- bluedays 6y agoLabor board joins the chat Labor Board: Quick, hide the evidence before we have to do more work.
- ddevault 6y agoOh no, he has to delete a tweet! A two-year old tweet! The humanity! This is ridiculous. Where's the fucking fine?
- sebow 6y agoSo much for freedom of speech. (Yes, even on privately-owned platforms, because they have been previously deemed "public space" in court cases.)
- loceng 6y agoHow is anyone buying into the complete false statement/propaganda that what Elon said is a threat? Has anyone commenting here even read Elon's tweet in question? "Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcare." - Elon, https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998454539941367808 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998454539941367808 Edit to add: lots of Elon hate blocking critical thinking here on HN.
- aphextron 6y ago>"Nothing stopping Tesla team at our car plant from voting union. Could do so tmrw if they wanted. But why pay union dues & give up stock options for nothing? Our safety record is 2X better than when plant was UAW & everybody already gets healthcare." - Elon, https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998454539941367808 https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/998454539941367808 This is literally textbook union busting BS. It's been the same line for 200 years.
- loceng 6y agoPrivate companies are allowed to negotiate with unions, no? That's the point of a union - to have an organizational body that allows members to vote. All Elon is saying is that Tesla won't be providing stock options to a union. The union could still strike if they don't get what they want - but this being considered a threat or union busting is akin to a temper tantrum because you don't like that something you're currently getting (candy<->stock) then you'll no longer get.
- koheripbal 6y ago> This is literally textbook union busting BS. So any CEO saying that unions aren't wanted is "union busting"? This just seems like watering down the word until it means almost nothing. There was a time when "union busting" meant literally busting striking member's heads.
- cinntaile 6y agoWhy would they not get stock options? Sounds like a punishment for voting union?
- pmorici 6y agoCalling this tweet "anti-union" seems like spin. It is pointing out facts that one might want to consider before deciding to unionize. The fact that employees lose stock options when they unionize isn't so much a threat as it is a fact about how unions work because historically unions are against any kind of incentive or merit pay so they refuse options as compensation. It is a fact that UAW hasn't negotiated options as part of the pay for it's members at any of the other companies where it represents workers.
- loceng 6y agoTry explaining that to the people downvoting and commenting where I point this out - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26602600 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26602600
- hnarn 6y agoI'm a very pro-union guy, so I'll give my five cents just for the sake of discussion: Firstly, I don't know the context in which this was tweeted, but looking at it, it's not in my opinion egregiously or "obviously" anti-union, but the definition of this is of course a legal one and not a subjective one, so it doesn't really matter what any of us "think" is anti-union, what matters is the legal text in the region where it is tried. With that said, I'd also like to state my opinion that I think it's at least quite unprofessional for any senior executive to voice any kind of anti-union sentiment regardless of how mild it is, I would expect that both parties keep to certain standards of discussion and avoiding bad faith, which in my mind means not discarding the entire raison d'être of the other party. Secondly, pointing out that unions are opposed to individualized salary negotiations is hardly a criticism of unions as much as it is a statement of fact. If the unions cannot meet this point in debate but need to revert to legal action, I think that speaks to the sad state of pro-union ideology today.
- natch 6y agoYou're talking about whether the most visible champion of Dogecoin, whose formal title at his company is Techking, and who added a fart-on-demand feature to his products, and saying that one of his tweets regarding a currently non-existent party, a Tesla union organization, is unprofessional. Labels like "unprofessional" are repugnant to some people, because they have been, and continue to be, used to justify arbitrary application of personal taste and frankly BS in the workplace, for example to bully people into wearing neckties. I doubt this is a good standard to go for when trying to engage Elon. I do understand however that it's your opinion — no argument that you are free to it, and I even think it's productive to air it… in part because it gives people like me a chance to offer a counter perspective.
- clcaev 6y agoThe entire concept of unionization seems unnecessarily confrontational. It does not need to be this way. Corporations are creations of the state. There is nothing preventing the state to require significant representation of employees in every board of directors. This board representation could support management that better reflects employee participation, e.g. Sociocracy. In this way, labour and capital could work together in a more integrated manner, avoiding much of this unnecessary conflict. Or, at least moving the conflict to more granular level of problem solving where views can be grounded in real-world challenges.
- MuffinFlavored 6y agoThe biggest confusion I have is everybody seems to approach Amazon and Tesla unionization as "hopefully it happens so workers will get better wages!" I could be wrong but... I'm pretty sure Amazon and Tesla pay great relative to their space. Relatively demanding, sure. I get it. We've all seen the article where some Amazon worker urinated in a bottle because "the job is just so ruthless!". They employ hundreds of thousands of workers worldwide. If it was that bad, I think they'd have a harder time hiring. I could have sworn I read that if you are a hardworking Amazon warehouse worker, they'll train you for a more technical job. That seems like a pretty good benefit. I'm sure most Amazon warehouse jobs start in the $15-20/hr range. How much better can you really get for what is essentially reading a screen, grabbing something off of a shelf, and putting it in a box? Maybe drive a forklift/unload a truck with a pallet jack. I feel like the same people who want Amazon to unionize so workers can get better wages + healthcare, also don't want Amazon to kill mom + pop shops. Ok... How is a mom and pop shop supposed to pay $20/hr with healthcare for a warehouse worker when they don't have AWS money falling from the sky?
- api 6y agoI listened to a podcast recently about Amazon union drives and apparently the big gripe isn't wages but working conditions. The almost universal sentiment is that people are treated like robots. Breaks are so rare and short that pissing in bottles or defecating in bags is common. Sometimes people have to choose between relieving themselves and eating since the break is too short for both. Most of the people interviewed wanted more humane working conditions. There are many worse places to work, but that's whataboutism and using that argument leads to a race to the bottom.
- CryptoPunk 6y agoTo understand the political evolution of Western democracies, it is instructive to read about the alliance between rent-seeking labor unions and the Democratic Party in the largest Western democracy, the US: https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-trouble-with-public-sector-unions https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-trou... It is also worth noting that virtually every major news company has a fully unionized workforce who essentially can't be replaced and have a financial conflict of interest in how the public perceives left vs right policies and parties.
- macinjosh 6y agoCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- theknocker 6y ago>fucktarded big government clowns make themselves look like a giant toolshed What else is new?
- eutropia 6y agoInteresting, in a way: asking to delete the tweet has likely given it far more audience than it originally had. Streisand effect, maybe?
- tw04 6y agoIsn’t that a good thing? It’s letting both Tesla employees and others know that the threats were empty, unenforceable and illegal. It’s not like the original tweet wasn’t widely discussed.
- smitty1e 6y agoDoes the First Amendment amount to a fart in a thunderstorm any longer? If anyone getting paid out of taxpayer funds doesn't grok the Bill of Rights, then their employment is what needs deleting.
- IntelMiner 6y agoThe first amendment doesn't protect a private company making statements on a private platform If Elon stood on the street corner shouting lies into a megaphone? Sure, maybe there'd be an argument there
- onelovetwo 6y agoThats complete nonsense. This isn't the private company making a decision on its platform, this is a government agency forcefully having a tweet removed.
- smitty1e 6y agoFurthermore, the idea that the federal government can coerce private companies into taking actions which the government is explicitly Constitutionally denied (censorship) is scary in the extreme. People need to think these things through ahead of them getting too far into Godwin's Law territory.
- NicoJuicy 6y agoUnpopular opinion and it's not applicable to the US. Because it's unpopular, it also won't get discussed anywhere... ( My perception could obviously be wrong, bit it would get silenced immediately for bringing it up) We have a powerfull union here in Belgium ( connections with politics) and since a lot had already accomplished, they keep fighting for ridiculous things for the mere purpose of keeping themselves relevant. One of their most favorite is classifying teachers as very hard labor. Coming from a background where my dad worked 18/24 and 7/7 that stings. I know multiple teachers and I don't consider that hard labor. It's important labor, yes. But they don't have a lot of stress of other professions, not much working hours and a lot of vacation. Keeping your course up to date every year is not stressful ( if that even happens. A lot of professors copy-paste their work) Important note: depending on the students age they teach ( toddlers, middle aged, adults. I do believe it gets harder and they need to add more hours. But classifying everyone as one is a mistake in my POV.
- lazyweb 6y agoI see you're somewhat bitter about this topic. Is that a good way to present your argument though? It seems to me that this kind of sentiment ("I've experienced hardships or know people who did, so why does this group deserve better?") is quite prevalent here in germany as well. I think this is a common trope among richer countries at least, and probably one of the most effective strategies or rhetoric patterns to stall social progress. Sometimes I'm catching myself thinking along similar lines, and when I do, I'll try to step back and try to examine why I'm having these thoughts, and if there's actually an argument against having changes like this. Is there any disadvantage for me, or for anyone really?
- NicoJuicy 6y agoI don't think you understand my point. Labelling something incorrect is what I l'm suggesting what they are doing. To stay relevant. So members keep paying their member fees. I'm not saying it has any disadvantages to me and that shouldn't matter at all. Eg. Teachers here in middle school are labeled as a physical heavy profession and receive advantages. Explain to me what is exactly physical heavy about teaching. And it's not just that. Working for the government here in general is labeled like that and it's just a reminder of the past ( in my opinion) to keep their benefits ( early and big pension). Does that disadvantage me? Yes, because I don't have a physical profession. But neither do they. I think it's more of an insult to those that actually have a heavy physical profession and have potential health problems because of that.
- phaze111 6y agosure
- kar5pt 6y agoTitle is misleading. The tweet wasn't just voicing an anti-union opinion, Musk was actively threatening employees who tried to join unions.
- LB232323 6y agoLabor was once fighting for their rights with rifles and unprecedented multicultural unity. Workers knew their enemy very clearly and knew how to attain their goals. The alternative was starvation and corporate enslavement. Now the concern is deleting tweets. Embourgeoisiement has slowed and confused the struggle of labor. The reckoning of the owner class is long overdue, as evidenced by this typical hubris. In today's world, this reckoning must be at once international and complete. We have the infrastructure for liberation on a global scale.
- utrechtsouth 6y agoIt's ironic that these workers "liberation" movements have resulted in the worlds largest slave labor camps and poverty on a scale never seen in free market countries. Not to mention genocide on a scale surpassing the nazis.
- rusty-rust 6y agoPoverty is just another form of slavery. Using your line of hyperbole I could also say the same for any developed capitalist nation. Now more to your point. The worker movements in the developed west was not shy to use force. An example in England would be workers marching to a factory owners house demanding better working conditions or else they’d kill him. I believe similar events also happened in the US.
- tacitusarc 6y agoPoverty is not another form of slavery and claiming that downplays in the extreme what slavery actually was. That is absolute nonsense.
- mat7447 6y agounprecedented multicultural unity. When? Liberation from what? Will this time commies implement true coomunism and create heaven on earth with your ersatz religion?
- 6y ago