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Tusky has been removed from the Play Store

272 points by garritfra 6y ago

throwitaway1235 6y ago
It should be clear by now that Google being the internet is not a net positive.
rvz 6y ago
You know what I am going to say... Google Play is owned by Google and is a private platform. They can remove, ban, suspend any app or app update they want when it breaks their policies. That is tough.
- curtainsforus 6y ago
  So break up google, easy
  - AndyMcConachie 6y ago
    Don't know why you're being downvoted. This is an obvious solution.
- DeadSuperHero 6y ago
  Ostensibly, you are correct. However, an increased problem of app curation is that, all too often, perfectly innocent apps can get caught in the cross-fire of bad automation. The fact that most people get their apps from one of two app stores (Google Play, App Store) makes this situation somewhat worse for people that effectively develop apps for the platform in their spare time. There are alternatives, like F-Droid...but, it's still not the same as mainstream distribution.
- Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL 6y ago
  I don't have strong feelings about mastodon or this specific app, but the credo of "It's a private company" is just lazy reasoning and thrown around blindly far too often. Being banned by big tech (whether apps, social media accounts, major payment processors for receiving donations) is in some cases almost equivalent to being shut down ; "it's a private company" : if the company has a monopoly and there's not a significant number of healthy alternatives for people to use (be it out of convenience and lack of skill, doesn't matter), then how about we take that into account? It's sad and frustrating we wanted an open internet and companies took over a huge share of it and are not stopping amassing influence and control. I wish this wasn't so, but it is, and we have to open our eyes to it when we're debating such topics. "You can still distribute your app when not being on the Play Store or Apple Store right?" "In theory yes" "Case closed" ; things aren't so simple! In a perfectly 'libertarian' world, I would be more inclined to be on your side. But we don't live in such a world. We live in a world of politics, extreme lobbying, complicated tax codes, one million parties with various interests locked into a power struggle for political / social control and influence.
  - 3np 6y ago
    I'd argue that any other stance would acknowledge and justify their position as a utility provider and the Play Store as a public space. I don't want that. Instead, Google should be required to provide equal capabilities to third-party app stores as the Play Store now enjoys on Android. Like Microsoft was forced to accommodate for other browser vendors in Windows way back when. This is in contrast to ISPs, which I whole-heartedly believe should be subject to net neutrality.
    - lelanthran 6y ago
      > I'd argue that any other stance would acknowledge and justify their position as a utility provider and the Play Store as a public space. That's a false dichotomy. The options are not: 1. Any company, anywhere and at any time can refuse to do business with anyone, anywhere and for any reason. 2. All companies, everywhere and all the time must allow voices from everyone, everywhere and all the time. There's a good middle ground - antitrust regulations could be modified so that, if the company has a large enough piece of the market they shouldn't have the /choice/ of denying access for any reason.
    - Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL 6y ago
      I do think that solution has a lot going for it. Probably even best to allow for multiple app stores from the very beginning. For example during setup of the device being prompted: "There are various app stores to install software from. Each comes with their own form of app curation, and policies regarding payments, privacy, updates and more ; please select the app stores you would like to use. If you'd like to learn more, click here." with a list of app stores given and 'Google Play' being pre-selected for example. It's not something I've thought about a lot before, so I'm sure we could do better than that. But in principle that doesn't sound too bad.
  - rvz 6y ago
    > It's sad and frustrating we wanted an open internet and companies took over a huge share of it and are not stopping amassing influence and control. I wish this wasn't so, but it is, and we have to open our eyes to it when we're debating such topics. They took advantage of this 'open internet' and now they have made it partially closed for everyone since they have control of the platforms that most people do for everyday life. Web Browsing, Email, Chat, Calendars, Maps and now Meetings. The startups that have been acquired by them have just made the tech giants even bigger. Developers recommending libraries, frameworks and services created by (you guessed it) the tech giants further locks in their app to depend solely on their servers and it makes the migration out of the app store very difficult. We let them do this for decades and now we complain about it. The only way to fight back is to create free and open source alternatives. > "You can still distribute your app when not being on the Play Store or Apple Store right?" "In theory yes" "Case closed" ; things aren't so simple! Practically yes and it is that simple. Take a look at how Cydia and F-Droid does it. Host a repository on your website, Put a 'Add to Cydia' or 'Add to F-Droid' deep link on your website and the users will freely see all the apps made by you. We need something like this but for the desktop. It may not even be 'Cydia' or called 'F-Droid' that succeeds in being mainstream on this very old idea, but there will be an accessible alternative that will use this idea and it is free and open source and cross-platform. Discord desktop is not on any App Store and you can download it freely without a Google/Apple account. Telegram is on Google Play and also self-hosts the APK and is also on F-Droid. The solution has always been to have a self-hosted backup so that the users always have an accessible way of downloading your app and not just being ONLY available through any centralised App Store.
- adamcstephens 6y ago
  That’s what they said about AT&T and the railroad monopolies. By breaking them up and restoring competition, our economy thrived. There is no creative destruction under monopoly capitalism. It is only suffocating and dominance.
- fennecfoxen 6y ago
  Just because you can do a thing doesn’t mean you should be able to do a thing or that you should do a thing, and it definitely doesn’t mean you should be immune to criticism for doing the thing.
- amelius 6y ago
  > Google Play is owned by Google and is a private platform. They can remove, ban, suspend any app or app update they want when it breaks their policies. In this democracy, companies can only do what we, the people, allow them to do.
  - hackeraccount 6y ago
    Don't know where you live but that's not the case in the U.S.
    - berkes 6y ago
      You, the people, vote for representatives who make the laws that Google has to adhere to. If you disagree with the current laws that allow Google to do what it does, then vote for other representatives. At least that is how it works in my country, and from what I know, how it works in the US too. Is that not "people allowing companies what they can do"?
- kryptiskt 6y ago
  Where does it say that people don't have the right to criticize them for their actions on the platform? Because I don't see how the fact that they have the ability and possibly the right (let's see what the antitrust cases say) to do this means that anybody has to take it without complaint.
  - rvz 6y ago
    I'll be waiting for the next time Google bans another app on the Play Store even after the antitrust lawsuits are over. In the old days at least for the desktop, one just points to a website to download an app on to their computer. Discord already does this. No Microsoft or Apple App Store required. For Android, F-Droid has a default main repository which is centralised but also allows you to add another repository if you want. While it is not as intuitive as adding a repository via a deep link at least you can do that. For iOS, Cydia is an App Store for iOS just like F-Droid where the user can easily add a repository via a 'Add to Cydia' deep link, and they get all the apps from that developer. We need something like that for the desktop, where users can do this freely. Centralisation of App Stores is not the answer, even if you 'break up' Google which I hope happens anyway. But for now, the Play Store is 'their service'. You're free to complain, critique, appeal, argue, scream, etc but it won't be the last time this will happen again. The best thing to do is to self-host your app; like how Telegram and Discord are doing it.
- mansion7 6y ago
  Keeping in mind that those who set the policies are the same people who were literally crying in the hallways at work after the 2016 election And outright saying "WE lost" When Google, YouTube, et al make decisions that appear to be careless, biased, or downright baffling, remembering this piece of data often provides valuable clarity, context, and insight
- syshum 6y ago
  This is quickly becoming the "cant yell fire" meme of the 2020's. hell I bet you even believe that meme dont you even though it is been rebutted for decades and universally cited as bad case law? The "Mah private company" defense is flawed on many levels and you should really stop using 1. Just because they have the right to do it, does not mean people should not criticize them for it. Simply stating they "have the right" is meaningless and does not add anything of value to the conversation 2. There is a overlapping and complex set of principles and laws at play here. There are many avenues that can be explored from a legal front when they ban a company from selling their product on their walled garden, even outside of the Anti-Trust issues there is also contract laws that can be used, and even Deceptive Trade regulations given the uneven standard that their policies are applied. So it is not as simple as say "Well there are a private company they can do what they want" The law, and society is far more complex than that, and it is time for people to stop using this useless platitude as a defense of bad actions
- derpthebert 6y ago
  You know you're wrong yet you still write this. Imagine you buy a car and use it legally then randomly all the Gas stations ban you. This is a similar situation. You purchased a phone, so should be able to install any app you like, easily. This needs fixing.
- newbie578 6y ago
  Let's say they decide to change their policies on a whim, where overnight you are banned for life. Should we also accept something like that? I'm sorry but what you are saying is pure ignorance. I consider myself also a libertarian to a certain degree, but in these kind of situations it is completely irrational to let these platforms behave however they want, regardless of the consequences.
gargron 6y ago
See also when the Matrix client Element was removed in a similar fashion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25964226 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25964226 I think it would be best to rename this submission to "Tusky (Mastodon app) suspended from Google Play Store" because people who do not use Mastodon have no context for what Tusky is.
- garritfra 6y ago
  Right, thanks for the hint. Title has been changed.
  - justinclift 6y ago
    Doesn't seem to be? Looking at the title just now, it just says "Tusky has been removed from the Play Store". There's literally no context as to WTF a "Tusky" is. ;) That being said, people who care could probably do a general online search and find out... :)
    - garritfra 6y ago
      I did change it, but it seems like a mod decided the previous title fits better.
- madeofpalk 6y ago
  I misread it as "Turkey", as in the country, until I read your message.
londons_explore 6y ago
Seems pretty obvious what the problem is to me... The privacy policy should have a button saying "I accept and understand the privacy policy, now sign me up". Instead the actual button is just "Sign up". That language doesn't meet the store policy. Simple issue with a simple solution.
- DeadSuperHero 6y ago
  I mean, in practice that would probably work. But an interesting caveat is that apps for federated networks don't typically have one singular privacy policy. It varies server by server. Architecturally, this is a different beast than having a client for a specific service, like Twitter. I guess they could probably get around it by showing an instance's policies prior to user registration, but not every server actually has them, or needs to (in the case of self-hosted servers)
  - jhugo 6y ago
    So, when signing up for the app, how do I know what's being done with any personal information that's being collected?
    - ForHackernews 6y ago
      You don't. But you never do. Just because some company has a thousand pages of legal boilerplate policies doesn't mean you have any meaningful information about what they're doing with your data. The only thing you can do is try to give them a minimum of data to play with.
    - swiley 6y ago
      You don't sign up "for the app." The app speaks a standard protocol and you sign up on an external service (like qoto.org or mstdn.social.)
      - jhugo 6y ago
        OK, so how do I know what the external service is doing with my personal information? And, separately, how do I know whether the app collects personal information itself (it's effectively in the transmission path between me and the external service) and where it transmits it if it does?
commoner 6y ago
For free and open source Android apps, F-Droid is a more reliable app store than Google Play. The F-Droid link for Tusky is: https://f-droid.org/packages/com.keylesspalace.tusky/ https://f-droid.org/packages/com.keylesspalace.tusky/
- fwn 6y ago
  Here is a relevant blog post f-droid published in 2019 on Tusky and Fedilab: https://f-droid.org/en/2019/07/16/statement.html https://f-droid.org/en/2019/07/16/statement.html They do seem to ague in favor of free software. .. at least as long as app developers do not advertise shunned instances. Power-statements like "sometimes, staying neutral isn’t an option" suggest that they are probably not an ally of those wanting to leave it to the user to decide what hosts to access. While I have mixed feelings about the article, it is well worth a read, no matter where readers stand on the issue.
  - derpthebert 6y ago
    f-droid banned Gab. So they cannot be trusted to run an impartial service.
    - derpthebert 6y ago
      Downvote if you're a demon tranny hacker.
    - nargek 6y ago
      Not tolerating xenophobia, racism and bigots in general is a big point for a lot of people. The paradox of tolerance is something that many people should consider.
      - derpthebert 6y ago
        All of the above is legal, bigot.
      - FeepingCreature 6y ago
pseudo0 6y ago
Amusing that Husky is still up, a fork of Tusky that has support for some additional Pleroma features and lacks Tusky's blacklist of certain "naughty" instances. https://github.com/fwgs/husky https://github.com/fwgs/husky
- jorvi 6y ago
  It still blows my mind that Mastodon was explicitly made to escape the 'dictator companies' of closed social networks but that many of the apps made for Mastodon contain blacklists. I don't agree with the content of said blacklisted Mastodon instances and I agree that developers can do whatever they want with their app, but blacklists seem painfully obviously against the spirit of what Mastodon is supposed to represent.
  - 3np 6y ago
    On the contrary, the idea in the fediverse is that you choose a server that aligns with your needs and preferences. You can always run your own promiscuous instance if you want. This is in contrary to the status quo, where the vertical integration makes it practically impossible to choose a differently filtered view. Over time I'm sure we'll see curation markets for filter lists, think adblock lists but tied to some collaboration, voting, incentive mechanisms and reputation system.
    - PurpleFoxy 6y ago
      OPs point is the app devs are trying to stop you picking your own server by blocking you from logging in to unapproved servers via the app. Instances blocking each other is perfectly understandable. This is like if chrome started blocking websites google disapproves of.
      - 3np 6y ago
        You're right - but my argument is equally applicable to Mastodon apps as to instances or Google's app store - you can always choose a different app! If they start using their own proprietary protocol extensions, or closed their instance to other clients, I'd not be as dismissive.
outloudvi 6y ago
Not the first time. Fedilab and Subway Tooter (both Mastodon apps too) have also been suspended from Play Store monthes earlier, also the latter one hasn't been recovered until now. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24304453 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24304453
matsemann 6y ago
Kinda ironic seeing Google Play's post today about "Boosting developer success on Google Play" [0] with quotes like "Helping developers build sustainable businesses", except that your business can be gone at any moment based on the whim of some Google employee or automated algorithm. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26486737 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26486737
- chii 6y ago
  The dangers of building on a platform that is unregulated. You wouldn't build your brick and mortar store on a contract that allowed the landlord to kick you out at a whim without compensation.
  - mschuster91 6y ago
    And yet people accept work in "at-will" states. And the reason is the same as in developers build upon Google Play and Apple Store: they don't have another choice to make a living.
    - donatj 6y ago
      Myself, working in an at-will state, it’s quite a different situation. If I lose my job there are thousands of other companies that would be happy to have me. Many of whom are filled with great people who are sane and reasonable. When it comes to selling mobile apps there are two storefronts with unforgiving chaotic management that will drop you at the turn of a hat.
      - fredgrott 6y ago
        you are confusing at-will with having an open enough systems that promote equity for all the equity for all is what guarantees what you have experienced not an at-well work state
        eplanit 6y ago
ddevault 6y ago
There's no need to bend to Google's monopolist bullshit. Use F-Droid.
derpthebert 6y ago
Makes sense, they want to control what you think.
- throwaway183210 6y ago
  lol, this guy got banned for posting this
0x003 6y ago
It's not clear to me from the link, what is tusky? and why was it removed?
arnaudsm 6y ago
If they ban a client for the content it can access, why don't they ban web browsers entirely ? Google Chrome allows access to illegal and hateful content too.
- dmos62 6y ago
  They should ban all devices, because at the end of the day you can circumvent any other ban.
  - Proziam 6y ago
    Going one further, you can circumvent this ban too :)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- thefounder 6y ago
  It's just a matter of time
  - syshum 6y ago
    They will never bann chrome, but I am sure they wills start banning lesser known browsers that are not Chrome, Edge, and Firefox...
    - rileymat2 6y ago
      In some sense the Apple rules requiring you use webkit internally is already a Chrome and firefox ban on ios.
      - mannerheim 6y ago
        Especially fun when you have to deal with Safari bugs.
    - userbinator 6y ago
sschueller 6y ago
Sadly I am quite sure my app [1] will eventually be removed from the play store as well if it ever becomes popular with the "wrong crowd". All it does is provide a way to connect to peertube (also fediverse like Mastodon) instances and watch videos. Which instance you follow is up to you not me. Content is moderated by the peertube instance owners not me and I am not going to bother adding an instance blacklist for something I don't make any money from. Especially since you can reach any instance just using chrome. [1] https://github.com/sschueller/peertube-android https://github.com/sschueller/peertube-android
- yarcob 6y ago
  I wonder if these problems could be fixed by showing only a list of family safe instances by default, but allow adding custom urls somewhere in the settings. Don't show a directory of instances in your app. This way casual app reviewers would see the family safe content, and you wouldn't have to block anything. Or would Google complain about that too?
  - sschueller 6y ago
    The default instance is mine and I follow almost no one, trying to keep that "family safe". But it looks like I need to also make sure it's "politically safe". The instance list is the official list provided by Peertube. I believe the goal is to make that list decentralised and self-filling as it should be. The NSFW filter is on per default. BTW, Google blocked an update not long ago because of a typo in my description where a word was repeated...
    - judge2020 6y ago
      'family safe' and 'politically safe' aren't much different in the fact that they're arbitrary filters on what is shown in the app by default. Start out with just a url box for 'connect to a PeerTube instance' and you don't have to worry about either.
      - usa5ever 6y ago
newbie578 6y ago
Slowly but surely, the trend of dissatisfaction with Google and Apple is increasing and I welcome it. The status regarding App Stores are reaching the boiling point and once they do, there is no going back. This decade is really going to an opposite of the last. The last decade saw the rise of Big Tech and their absolute domination in their sphere of influence. This decade is going to see the regulation of Big Tech, where Apple and Google (and I hope Twitter and Facebook) are going to painfully realise they are not the government, nor are they lawmakers. So their "terms of use" are not laws, and finally we won't see anymore comments on HN regarding "their platform, they can do whatever they want".
Fiveplus 6y ago
Is there someone curating a list of actual bad apps that haven't been banned from Google Play Store?
- enriquto 6y ago
  To begin with, Google Play Store is the baddest of all. No need to list other particular apps accessible from therein.
- ww520 6y ago
  Start with Chrome.
motohagiography 6y ago
Thinking maybe the solution is to have a new device, unplugged from cellular comms altogether. The principle being, if you don't have wifi, you don't need your internet social messenger communities, and if it's urgent, you can tether. Something with a lens cap for the camera, no mic/speakers without an external headset, physical dip swtiches for individual sensors (GPS, wifi, accelerometer, etc) A linux or bsd kernel, with a removable SD card for modules, and some basic mesh network capabilities. A variation of the CutiePi or PinePhone could do it. It's time for normal people to compartmentalize their tech the way hackers traditionally have.
jz10 6y ago
For context: Tusky is a lightweight client for Mastodon, a free and open-source social network server. https://tusky.app/ https://tusky.app/
AdmiralAsshat 6y ago
Tusky is still installed on my phone, though, so I guess Google hasn't decided to yank it off existing devices yet. Do they even have the capacity to do that? It would be quite irksome here, but I'd see it being useful in the case of apps that are found to contain malware.
- jeroenhd 6y ago
  They do have the capacity to uninstall apps remotely as far as I know, but I don't think they've ever used it. Perhaps the system triggers when Play Protect finds an obvious strain of malware, but in these cases the default is to remove the store listing and the available updates but leave the app on the device. Google showed their capability years ago (https://www.tomsguide.com/us/Android-Google-Applications-Android-Apps,news-7216.html https://www.tomsguide.com/us/Android-Google-Applications-And...) but I don't know if they have the same capabilities now with the new Android permissions system.
  - solarkraft 6y ago
    > They do have the capacity to uninstall apps remotely as far as I know As far as I know they have the capacity to do literally anything, since they have root rights on every phone with Play Services installed (which in most cases the user does not).
throwaway183210 6y ago
ban everyone who disagrees with you!
slooonz 6y ago
I don’t think the author of Tusky has a lot of ground to complain against arbitrary removals here: https://chaos.social/@ConnyDuck/103137899476259476 https://chaos.social/@ConnyDuck/103137899476259476
solarkraft 6y ago
No problem. It's still on F-Droid. https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.keylesspalace.tusky/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.keylesspalace.tusky/
userbinator 6y ago
This brave new era of censorship is going to have some really horrible long-term effects that are not so apparent yet to its proponents. The echo-chambers and divisiveness will only get stronger as the edges slowly get squeezed out of the population. "I don't agree with a word you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it."
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  This new era of censorship is a reaction to the now obvious long-term effects of lack of censorship. As with most reactions it will probably swing too far the other way for a while.
  - indymike 6y ago
    Obvious is not a word I'd use here. At least in the US, we're driving a lot of change. Personally, I think a lot of the change is for the better... but censorship... well, Censorship is a disease. Bad ideas are a disease. Trying to cure bad ideas with censorship is kind of like trading cancer for congestive heart failure. Historically, censorship really hasn't led to great outcomes. Bad ideas? Usually good ideas end up winning. It just takes time.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
      I'd like to believe that completely open debate would lead to better understanding for everyone involved, but reality has demonstrated to me that it isn't the case. "A lie can make it half way around the world before the truth can get its boots on". Even in Twain's day they understood the power of unchecked misinformation, and recent events have shown the consequences of allowing misinformation to spread far and wide nearly instantaneously.
  - freebuju 6y ago
    I disagree. AI banning an app on content violation grounds is just a terrible and shameful dystopian reality. If not a lazy excuse for absolving big tech as they get away with cutting corners and other costs. I don't know about you but I expect a human to be on the other hand of the switch when decisions like banning have to be taken.
redsolver 6y ago
Tusky is also available on SkyDroid (https://skydroid.app/ https://skydroid.app/), a decentralized domain-based App Store: https://to.skydroid.app/com.keylesspalace.tusky.fdroid-app https://to.skydroid.app/com.keylesspalace.tusky.fdroid-app
scotty79 6y ago
How do you discover content on Mastodon? I just intalled Tusky. Didn't have an account and te process of creating one was through some detour and I ended up creating one on qoto.org that I chose randomly. Now I have a feed with pretty random posts and another with even more random posts some in the language I don't know. How can I find anything worth reading there?
- notsuoh 6y ago
  Same experience here. I've really, really wanted to like Mastodon but feel like it's all just random toots. And then if I click the wrong button it is random toots in Mandarin!
- pjfin123 6y ago
  Discovery is definitely the hardest part of the fediverse. Your best bet is to join a server with similar interests and start following people.
- fmoralesc 6y ago
  First, you check if the instance that you are subscribing to caters to your interests - signing up to a random instance is bound to be useless. Then you can just follow people from the local feed, or something that catches your fancy from the global feed. And if you find a mastodon user from a different instance that you are interested in (maybe in a google search), you can follow them and the system will redirect you so your instance connects you to them.
  - scotty79 6y ago
    Aren't there some aggregators that group posts from various instances, rate them and match their contents with user preferences?
- messo 6y ago
  We are generally so habituated to services that plunder our contact lists and auto-populate our social graph that we end up all dazed and confused when checking out privacy-respecting social networks. Like … where are my friends at? In the fediverse, you can choose your community, you have choices. Most servers (instances) gather around a topic, common interest or subculture and have their own rules and etiquette. An easy place to get started is https://joinmastodon.org/communities https://joinmastodon.org/communities. If you discover people who "live" on other instances, you can still follow them. It might take more time to build your social graph in the fediverse than on the centralized and commercial services, but the satisfaction of having a feed that you put together yourself, without being influenced by nagging recommendation algorithms is worth it – at least to me! EDIT: To answer your question more directly, I'll add some of the people and projects that I find interesting and follow (and that you probably won't find on other social networks). YMMV: - https://mastodon.social/@mntmn https://mastodon.social/@mntmn (researcher building an open source laptop, amongst other things) - https://social.coop/@compost https://social.coop/@compost (a magazine about the digital commonts) - https://mastodon.art/@BenjaminBrinckmann https://mastodon.art/@BenjaminBrinckmann (talented painter / artist) - https://indieweb.social/@bonfire https://indieweb.social/@bonfire (a project building a system for easier self-hosting of federated services) - https://chaos.social/@delta https://chaos.social/@delta (Instant Email Messaging App) - https://fosstodon.org/@flockingbird https://fosstodon.org/@flockingbird (Federated version of LinkedIn in the making) - https://floss.social/@forgefed https://floss.social/@forgefed (Vocabulary and protocol for federation of project and repository hosting) - https://mastodon.social/@zrythm https://mastodon.social/@zrythm (young DAW software project) - https://chaos.social/@ConnyDuck https://chaos.social/@ConnyDuck (Creator of Tusky, now banned from Google Play Store) - https://linuxrocks.online/@dnkl https://linuxrocks.online/@dnkl (Developer making the great terminal emulator "foot")
qwerty456127 6y ago
Fortunately that's Google - whoever really knows what they are doing are still free to sideload the app.
forgotmypw17 6y ago
I'm so grateful for F-Droid. It's become my first (and usually only) place to look for Android apps.

272 points by garritfra 6y ago

It should be clear by now that Google being the internet is not a net positive.

rvz 6y ago

You know what I am going to say... Google Play is owned by Google and is a private platform. They can remove, ban, suspend any app or app update they want when it breaks their policies. That is tough.

curtainsforus 6y ago
So break up google, easy
- AndyMcConachie 6y ago
  Don't know why you're being downvoted. This is an obvious solution.
DeadSuperHero 6y ago
Ostensibly, you are correct. However, an increased problem of app curation is that, all too often, perfectly innocent apps can get caught in the cross-fire of bad automation. The fact that most people get their apps from one of two app stores (Google Play, App Store) makes this situation somewhat worse for people that effectively develop apps for the platform in their spare time. There are alternatives, like F-Droid...but, it's still not the same as mainstream distribution.
Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL 6y ago
I don't have strong feelings about mastodon or this specific app, but the credo of "It's a private company" is just lazy reasoning and thrown around blindly far too often. Being banned by big tech (whether apps, social media accounts, major payment processors for receiving donations) is in some cases almost equivalent to being shut down ; "it's a private company" : if the company has a monopoly and there's not a significant number of healthy alternatives for people to use (be it out of convenience and lack of skill, doesn't matter), then how about we take that into account? It's sad and frustrating we wanted an open internet and companies took over a huge share of it and are not stopping amassing influence and control. I wish this wasn't so, but it is, and we have to open our eyes to it when we're debating such topics. "You can still distribute your app when not being on the Play Store or Apple Store right?" "In theory yes" "Case closed" ; things aren't so simple! In a perfectly 'libertarian' world, I would be more inclined to be on your side. But we don't live in such a world. We live in a world of politics, extreme lobbying, complicated tax codes, one million parties with various interests locked into a power struggle for political / social control and influence.
- 3np 6y ago
  I'd argue that any other stance would acknowledge and justify their position as a utility provider and the Play Store as a public space. I don't want that. Instead, Google should be required to provide equal capabilities to third-party app stores as the Play Store now enjoys on Android. Like Microsoft was forced to accommodate for other browser vendors in Windows way back when. This is in contrast to ISPs, which I whole-heartedly believe should be subject to net neutrality.
  - lelanthran 6y ago
    > I'd argue that any other stance would acknowledge and justify their position as a utility provider and the Play Store as a public space. That's a false dichotomy. The options are not: 1. Any company, anywhere and at any time can refuse to do business with anyone, anywhere and for any reason. 2. All companies, everywhere and all the time must allow voices from everyone, everywhere and all the time. There's a good middle ground - antitrust regulations could be modified so that, if the company has a large enough piece of the market they shouldn't have the /choice/ of denying access for any reason.
  - Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL 6y ago
    I do think that solution has a lot going for it. Probably even best to allow for multiple app stores from the very beginning. For example during setup of the device being prompted: "There are various app stores to install software from. Each comes with their own form of app curation, and policies regarding payments, privacy, updates and more ; please select the app stores you would like to use. If you'd like to learn more, click here." with a list of app stores given and 'Google Play' being pre-selected for example. It's not something I've thought about a lot before, so I'm sure we could do better than that. But in principle that doesn't sound too bad.
- rvz 6y ago
  > It's sad and frustrating we wanted an open internet and companies took over a huge share of it and are not stopping amassing influence and control. I wish this wasn't so, but it is, and we have to open our eyes to it when we're debating such topics. They took advantage of this 'open internet' and now they have made it partially closed for everyone since they have control of the platforms that most people do for everyday life. Web Browsing, Email, Chat, Calendars, Maps and now Meetings. The startups that have been acquired by them have just made the tech giants even bigger. Developers recommending libraries, frameworks and services created by (you guessed it) the tech giants further locks in their app to depend solely on their servers and it makes the migration out of the app store very difficult. We let them do this for decades and now we complain about it. The only way to fight back is to create free and open source alternatives. > "You can still distribute your app when not being on the Play Store or Apple Store right?" "In theory yes" "Case closed" ; things aren't so simple! Practically yes and it is that simple. Take a look at how Cydia and F-Droid does it. Host a repository on your website, Put a 'Add to Cydia' or 'Add to F-Droid' deep link on your website and the users will freely see all the apps made by you. We need something like this but for the desktop. It may not even be 'Cydia' or called 'F-Droid' that succeeds in being mainstream on this very old idea, but there will be an accessible alternative that will use this idea and it is free and open source and cross-platform. Discord desktop is not on any App Store and you can download it freely without a Google/Apple account. Telegram is on Google Play and also self-hosts the APK and is also on F-Droid. The solution has always been to have a self-hosted backup so that the users always have an accessible way of downloading your app and not just being ONLY available through any centralised App Store.
adamcstephens 6y ago
That’s what they said about AT&T and the railroad monopolies. By breaking them up and restoring competition, our economy thrived. There is no creative destruction under monopoly capitalism. It is only suffocating and dominance.
fennecfoxen 6y ago
Just because you can do a thing doesn’t mean you should be able to do a thing or that you should do a thing, and it definitely doesn’t mean you should be immune to criticism for doing the thing.
amelius 6y ago
> Google Play is owned by Google and is a private platform. They can remove, ban, suspend any app or app update they want when it breaks their policies. In this democracy, companies can only do what we, the people, allow them to do.
- hackeraccount 6y ago
  Don't know where you live but that's not the case in the U.S.
  - berkes 6y ago
    You, the people, vote for representatives who make the laws that Google has to adhere to. If you disagree with the current laws that allow Google to do what it does, then vote for other representatives. At least that is how it works in my country, and from what I know, how it works in the US too. Is that not "people allowing companies what they can do"?
kryptiskt 6y ago
Where does it say that people don't have the right to criticize them for their actions on the platform? Because I don't see how the fact that they have the ability and possibly the right (let's see what the antitrust cases say) to do this means that anybody has to take it without complaint.
- rvz 6y ago
  I'll be waiting for the next time Google bans another app on the Play Store even after the antitrust lawsuits are over. In the old days at least for the desktop, one just points to a website to download an app on to their computer. Discord already does this. No Microsoft or Apple App Store required. For Android, F-Droid has a default main repository which is centralised but also allows you to add another repository if you want. While it is not as intuitive as adding a repository via a deep link at least you can do that. For iOS, Cydia is an App Store for iOS just like F-Droid where the user can easily add a repository via a 'Add to Cydia' deep link, and they get all the apps from that developer. We need something like that for the desktop, where users can do this freely. Centralisation of App Stores is not the answer, even if you 'break up' Google which I hope happens anyway. But for now, the Play Store is 'their service'. You're free to complain, critique, appeal, argue, scream, etc but it won't be the last time this will happen again. The best thing to do is to self-host your app; like how Telegram and Discord are doing it.
mansion7 6y ago
Keeping in mind that those who set the policies are the same people who were literally crying in the hallways at work after the 2016 election And outright saying "WE lost" When Google, YouTube, et al make decisions that appear to be careless, biased, or downright baffling, remembering this piece of data often provides valuable clarity, context, and insight
syshum 6y ago
This is quickly becoming the "cant yell fire" meme of the 2020's. hell I bet you even believe that meme dont you even though it is been rebutted for decades and universally cited as bad case law? The "Mah private company" defense is flawed on many levels and you should really stop using 1. Just because they have the right to do it, does not mean people should not criticize them for it. Simply stating they "have the right" is meaningless and does not add anything of value to the conversation 2. There is a overlapping and complex set of principles and laws at play here. There are many avenues that can be explored from a legal front when they ban a company from selling their product on their walled garden, even outside of the Anti-Trust issues there is also contract laws that can be used, and even Deceptive Trade regulations given the uneven standard that their policies are applied. So it is not as simple as say "Well there are a private company they can do what they want" The law, and society is far more complex than that, and it is time for people to stop using this useless platitude as a defense of bad actions
derpthebert 6y ago
You know you're wrong yet you still write this. Imagine you buy a car and use it legally then randomly all the Gas stations ban you. This is a similar situation. You purchased a phone, so should be able to install any app you like, easily. This needs fixing.
newbie578 6y ago
Let's say they decide to change their policies on a whim, where overnight you are banned for life. Should we also accept something like that? I'm sorry but what you are saying is pure ignorance. I consider myself also a libertarian to a certain degree, but in these kind of situations it is completely irrational to let these platforms behave however they want, regardless of the consequences.

gargron 6y ago

See also when the Matrix client Element was removed in a similar fashion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25964226 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25964226 I think it would be best to rename this submission to "Tusky (Mastodon app) suspended from Google Play Store" because people who do not use Mastodon have no context for what Tusky is.

garritfra 6y ago
Right, thanks for the hint. Title has been changed.
- justinclift 6y ago
  Doesn't seem to be? Looking at the title just now, it just says "Tusky has been removed from the Play Store". There's literally no context as to WTF a "Tusky" is. ;) That being said, people who care could probably do a general online search and find out... :)
  - garritfra 6y ago
    I did change it, but it seems like a mod decided the previous title fits better.
madeofpalk 6y ago
I misread it as "Turkey", as in the country, until I read your message.

londons_explore 6y ago

Seems pretty obvious what the problem is to me... The privacy policy should have a button saying "I accept and understand the privacy policy, now sign me up". Instead the actual button is just "Sign up". That language doesn't meet the store policy. Simple issue with a simple solution.

DeadSuperHero 6y ago
I mean, in practice that would probably work. But an interesting caveat is that apps for federated networks don't typically have one singular privacy policy. It varies server by server. Architecturally, this is a different beast than having a client for a specific service, like Twitter. I guess they could probably get around it by showing an instance's policies prior to user registration, but not every server actually has them, or needs to (in the case of self-hosted servers)
- jhugo 6y ago
  So, when signing up for the app, how do I know what's being done with any personal information that's being collected?
  - ForHackernews 6y ago
    You don't. But you never do. Just because some company has a thousand pages of legal boilerplate policies doesn't mean you have any meaningful information about what they're doing with your data. The only thing you can do is try to give them a minimum of data to play with.
  - swiley 6y ago
    You don't sign up "for the app." The app speaks a standard protocol and you sign up on an external service (like qoto.org or mstdn.social.)
    - jhugo 6y ago
      OK, so how do I know what the external service is doing with my personal information? And, separately, how do I know whether the app collects personal information itself (it's effectively in the transmission path between me and the external service) and where it transmits it if it does?

commoner 6y ago

For free and open source Android apps, F-Droid is a more reliable app store than Google Play. The F-Droid link for Tusky is: https://f-droid.org/packages/com.keylesspalace.tusky/ https://f-droid.org/packages/com.keylesspalace.tusky/

fwn 6y ago
Here is a relevant blog post f-droid published in 2019 on Tusky and Fedilab: https://f-droid.org/en/2019/07/16/statement.html https://f-droid.org/en/2019/07/16/statement.html They do seem to ague in favor of free software. .. at least as long as app developers do not advertise shunned instances. Power-statements like "sometimes, staying neutral isn’t an option" suggest that they are probably not an ally of those wanting to leave it to the user to decide what hosts to access. While I have mixed feelings about the article, it is well worth a read, no matter where readers stand on the issue.
- derpthebert 6y ago
  f-droid banned Gab. So they cannot be trusted to run an impartial service.
  - derpthebert 6y ago
    Downvote if you're a demon tranny hacker.
  - nargek 6y ago
    Not tolerating xenophobia, racism and bigots in general is a big point for a lot of people. The paradox of tolerance is something that many people should consider.
    - derpthebert 6y ago
      All of the above is legal, bigot.
    - FeepingCreature 6y ago

pseudo0 6y ago

Amusing that Husky is still up, a fork of Tusky that has support for some additional Pleroma features and lacks Tusky's blacklist of certain "naughty" instances. https://github.com/fwgs/husky https://github.com/fwgs/husky

jorvi 6y ago
It still blows my mind that Mastodon was explicitly made to escape the 'dictator companies' of closed social networks but that many of the apps made for Mastodon contain blacklists. I don't agree with the content of said blacklisted Mastodon instances and I agree that developers can do whatever they want with their app, but blacklists seem painfully obviously against the spirit of what Mastodon is supposed to represent.
- 3np 6y ago
  On the contrary, the idea in the fediverse is that you choose a server that aligns with your needs and preferences. You can always run your own promiscuous instance if you want. This is in contrary to the status quo, where the vertical integration makes it practically impossible to choose a differently filtered view. Over time I'm sure we'll see curation markets for filter lists, think adblock lists but tied to some collaboration, voting, incentive mechanisms and reputation system.
  - PurpleFoxy 6y ago
    OPs point is the app devs are trying to stop you picking your own server by blocking you from logging in to unapproved servers via the app. Instances blocking each other is perfectly understandable. This is like if chrome started blocking websites google disapproves of.
    - 3np 6y ago
      You're right - but my argument is equally applicable to Mastodon apps as to instances or Google's app store - you can always choose a different app! If they start using their own proprietary protocol extensions, or closed their instance to other clients, I'd not be as dismissive.

outloudvi 6y ago

Not the first time. Fedilab and Subway Tooter (both Mastodon apps too) have also been suspended from Play Store monthes earlier, also the latter one hasn't been recovered until now. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24304453 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24304453

matsemann 6y ago

Kinda ironic seeing Google Play's post today about "Boosting developer success on Google Play" [0] with quotes like "Helping developers build sustainable businesses", except that your business can be gone at any moment based on the whim of some Google employee or automated algorithm. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26486737 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26486737

chii 6y ago
The dangers of building on a platform that is unregulated. You wouldn't build your brick and mortar store on a contract that allowed the landlord to kick you out at a whim without compensation.
- mschuster91 6y ago
  And yet people accept work in "at-will" states. And the reason is the same as in developers build upon Google Play and Apple Store: they don't have another choice to make a living.
  - donatj 6y ago
    Myself, working in an at-will state, it’s quite a different situation. If I lose my job there are thousands of other companies that would be happy to have me. Many of whom are filled with great people who are sane and reasonable. When it comes to selling mobile apps there are two storefronts with unforgiving chaotic management that will drop you at the turn of a hat.
    - fredgrott 6y ago
      you are confusing at-will with having an open enough systems that promote equity for all the equity for all is what guarantees what you have experienced not an at-well work state
      - eplanit 6y ago

ddevault 6y ago

There's no need to bend to Google's monopolist bullshit. Use F-Droid.

derpthebert 6y ago

Makes sense, they want to control what you think.

throwaway183210 6y ago
lol, this guy got banned for posting this

0x003 6y ago

It's not clear to me from the link, what is tusky? and why was it removed?

arnaudsm 6y ago

If they ban a client for the content it can access, why don't they ban web browsers entirely ? Google Chrome allows access to illegal and hateful content too.

dmos62 6y ago
They should ban all devices, because at the end of the day you can circumvent any other ban.
- Proziam 6y ago
  Going one further, you can circumvent this ban too :)
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
thefounder 6y ago
It's just a matter of time
- syshum 6y ago
  They will never bann chrome, but I am sure they wills start banning lesser known browsers that are not Chrome, Edge, and Firefox...
  - rileymat2 6y ago
    In some sense the Apple rules requiring you use webkit internally is already a Chrome and firefox ban on ios.
    - mannerheim 6y ago
      Especially fun when you have to deal with Safari bugs.
  - userbinator 6y ago

sschueller 6y ago

Sadly I am quite sure my app [1] will eventually be removed from the play store as well if it ever becomes popular with the "wrong crowd". All it does is provide a way to connect to peertube (also fediverse like Mastodon) instances and watch videos. Which instance you follow is up to you not me. Content is moderated by the peertube instance owners not me and I am not going to bother adding an instance blacklist for something I don't make any money from. Especially since you can reach any instance just using chrome. [1] https://github.com/sschueller/peertube-android https://github.com/sschueller/peertube-android

yarcob 6y ago
I wonder if these problems could be fixed by showing only a list of family safe instances by default, but allow adding custom urls somewhere in the settings. Don't show a directory of instances in your app. This way casual app reviewers would see the family safe content, and you wouldn't have to block anything. Or would Google complain about that too?
- sschueller 6y ago
  The default instance is mine and I follow almost no one, trying to keep that "family safe". But it looks like I need to also make sure it's "politically safe". The instance list is the official list provided by Peertube. I believe the goal is to make that list decentralised and self-filling as it should be. The NSFW filter is on per default. BTW, Google blocked an update not long ago because of a typo in my description where a word was repeated...
  - judge2020 6y ago
    'family safe' and 'politically safe' aren't much different in the fact that they're arbitrary filters on what is shown in the app by default. Start out with just a url box for 'connect to a PeerTube instance' and you don't have to worry about either.
    - usa5ever 6y ago

newbie578 6y ago

Slowly but surely, the trend of dissatisfaction with Google and Apple is increasing and I welcome it. The status regarding App Stores are reaching the boiling point and once they do, there is no going back. This decade is really going to an opposite of the last. The last decade saw the rise of Big Tech and their absolute domination in their sphere of influence. This decade is going to see the regulation of Big Tech, where Apple and Google (and I hope Twitter and Facebook) are going to painfully realise they are not the government, nor are they lawmakers. So their "terms of use" are not laws, and finally we won't see anymore comments on HN regarding "their platform, they can do whatever they want".

Fiveplus 6y ago

Is there someone curating a list of actual bad apps that haven't been banned from Google Play Store?

enriquto 6y ago
To begin with, Google Play Store is the baddest of all. No need to list other particular apps accessible from therein.
ww520 6y ago
Start with Chrome.

motohagiography 6y ago

Thinking maybe the solution is to have a new device, unplugged from cellular comms altogether. The principle being, if you don't have wifi, you don't need your internet social messenger communities, and if it's urgent, you can tether. Something with a lens cap for the camera, no mic/speakers without an external headset, physical dip swtiches for individual sensors (GPS, wifi, accelerometer, etc) A linux or bsd kernel, with a removable SD card for modules, and some basic mesh network capabilities. A variation of the CutiePi or PinePhone could do it. It's time for normal people to compartmentalize their tech the way hackers traditionally have.

jz10 6y ago

For context: Tusky is a lightweight client for Mastodon, a free and open-source social network server. https://tusky.app/ https://tusky.app/

AdmiralAsshat 6y ago

Tusky is still installed on my phone, though, so I guess Google hasn't decided to yank it off existing devices yet. Do they even have the capacity to do that? It would be quite irksome here, but I'd see it being useful in the case of apps that are found to contain malware.

jeroenhd 6y ago
They do have the capacity to uninstall apps remotely as far as I know, but I don't think they've ever used it. Perhaps the system triggers when Play Protect finds an obvious strain of malware, but in these cases the default is to remove the store listing and the available updates but leave the app on the device. Google showed their capability years ago (https://www.tomsguide.com/us/Android-Google-Applications-Android-Apps,news-7216.html https://www.tomsguide.com/us/Android-Google-Applications-And...) but I don't know if they have the same capabilities now with the new Android permissions system.
- solarkraft 6y ago
  > They do have the capacity to uninstall apps remotely as far as I know As far as I know they have the capacity to do literally anything, since they have root rights on every phone with Play Services installed (which in most cases the user does not).

throwaway183210 6y ago

ban everyone who disagrees with you!

slooonz 6y ago

I don’t think the author of Tusky has a lot of ground to complain against arbitrary removals here: https://chaos.social/@ConnyDuck/103137899476259476 https://chaos.social/@ConnyDuck/103137899476259476

solarkraft 6y ago

No problem. It's still on F-Droid. https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.keylesspalace.tusky/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.keylesspalace.tusky/

userbinator 6y ago

This brave new era of censorship is going to have some really horrible long-term effects that are not so apparent yet to its proponents. The echo-chambers and divisiveness will only get stronger as the edges slowly get squeezed out of the population. "I don't agree with a word you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it."

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
This new era of censorship is a reaction to the now obvious long-term effects of lack of censorship. As with most reactions it will probably swing too far the other way for a while.
- indymike 6y ago
  Obvious is not a word I'd use here. At least in the US, we're driving a lot of change. Personally, I think a lot of the change is for the better... but censorship... well, Censorship is a disease. Bad ideas are a disease. Trying to cure bad ideas with censorship is kind of like trading cancer for congestive heart failure. Historically, censorship really hasn't led to great outcomes. Bad ideas? Usually good ideas end up winning. It just takes time.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    I'd like to believe that completely open debate would lead to better understanding for everyone involved, but reality has demonstrated to me that it isn't the case. "A lie can make it half way around the world before the truth can get its boots on". Even in Twain's day they understood the power of unchecked misinformation, and recent events have shown the consequences of allowing misinformation to spread far and wide nearly instantaneously.
- freebuju 6y ago
  I disagree. AI banning an app on content violation grounds is just a terrible and shameful dystopian reality. If not a lazy excuse for absolving big tech as they get away with cutting corners and other costs. I don't know about you but I expect a human to be on the other hand of the switch when decisions like banning have to be taken.

redsolver 6y ago

Tusky is also available on SkyDroid (https://skydroid.app/ https://skydroid.app/), a decentralized domain-based App Store: https://to.skydroid.app/com.keylesspalace.tusky.fdroid-app https://to.skydroid.app/com.keylesspalace.tusky.fdroid-app

scotty79 6y ago

How do you discover content on Mastodon? I just intalled Tusky. Didn't have an account and te process of creating one was through some detour and I ended up creating one on qoto.org that I chose randomly. Now I have a feed with pretty random posts and another with even more random posts some in the language I don't know. How can I find anything worth reading there?

notsuoh 6y ago
Same experience here. I've really, really wanted to like Mastodon but feel like it's all just random toots. And then if I click the wrong button it is random toots in Mandarin!
pjfin123 6y ago
Discovery is definitely the hardest part of the fediverse. Your best bet is to join a server with similar interests and start following people.
fmoralesc 6y ago
First, you check if the instance that you are subscribing to caters to your interests - signing up to a random instance is bound to be useless. Then you can just follow people from the local feed, or something that catches your fancy from the global feed. And if you find a mastodon user from a different instance that you are interested in (maybe in a google search), you can follow them and the system will redirect you so your instance connects you to them.
- scotty79 6y ago
  Aren't there some aggregators that group posts from various instances, rate them and match their contents with user preferences?
messo 6y ago
We are generally so habituated to services that plunder our contact lists and auto-populate our social graph that we end up all dazed and confused when checking out privacy-respecting social networks. Like … where are my friends at? In the fediverse, you can choose your community, you have choices. Most servers (instances) gather around a topic, common interest or subculture and have their own rules and etiquette. An easy place to get started is https://joinmastodon.org/communities https://joinmastodon.org/communities. If you discover people who "live" on other instances, you can still follow them. It might take more time to build your social graph in the fediverse than on the centralized and commercial services, but the satisfaction of having a feed that you put together yourself, without being influenced by nagging recommendation algorithms is worth it – at least to me! EDIT: To answer your question more directly, I'll add some of the people and projects that I find interesting and follow (and that you probably won't find on other social networks). YMMV: - https://mastodon.social/@mntmn https://mastodon.social/@mntmn (researcher building an open source laptop, amongst other things) - https://social.coop/@compost https://social.coop/@compost (a magazine about the digital commonts) - https://mastodon.art/@BenjaminBrinckmann https://mastodon.art/@BenjaminBrinckmann (talented painter / artist) - https://indieweb.social/@bonfire https://indieweb.social/@bonfire (a project building a system for easier self-hosting of federated services) - https://chaos.social/@delta https://chaos.social/@delta (Instant Email Messaging App) - https://fosstodon.org/@flockingbird https://fosstodon.org/@flockingbird (Federated version of LinkedIn in the making) - https://floss.social/@forgefed https://floss.social/@forgefed (Vocabulary and protocol for federation of project and repository hosting) - https://mastodon.social/@zrythm https://mastodon.social/@zrythm (young DAW software project) - https://chaos.social/@ConnyDuck https://chaos.social/@ConnyDuck (Creator of Tusky, now banned from Google Play Store) - https://linuxrocks.online/@dnkl https://linuxrocks.online/@dnkl (Developer making the great terminal emulator "foot")

qwerty456127 6y ago

Fortunately that's Google - whoever really knows what they are doing are still free to sideload the app.

forgotmypw17 6y ago

I'm so grateful for F-Droid. It's become my first (and usually only) place to look for Android apps.