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The unusual ways Western parents raise children

• swader999 6y ago
  We put the crib close to our bed, much easier for mom. Dad got ear plugs.
  • TomK32 6y ago
    We had our baby in our bed between us and usually I woke up first when the baby wanted to be nursed and just gently pushed it so she could get nursed by her mother. Worked fine. We're in Austria.
  • AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
    It's funny, human mothers have a unique trait through which they can identify the cries of their particular child, even at a playground where a lot of kids are making noise. Somehow, mothers are able to cut through all the din and identify the voice of their young child, at the exclusion of all others. Nature does so much to bring mothers closer to their young, yet fathers do not possess this "talent." In fact, we seem eager to block out some of that natural closeness we feel towards our children. We use ear plugs now, but I am sure we used animal fur and cotton to achieve the same effect centuries earlier.
    • steve_adams_86 6y ago
      As a man who put his career on hold to be the stay at home parent, this seems extremely out of touch. In my house I’m the one with the “talent”; it has nothing to do with gender. It had everything to do with being in tune with another human being.
      • stevekemp 6y ago
        Agreed, I did the same thing. Towards the end I could tell, from the sounds of his crying, whether he was hungry, tired, or hurt too. (Towards the end in the sense that he was able to answer questions, or use words to explain a little what was going on. Raising him bilingually, and it took a while for him to start speaking.)
    • TomK32 6y ago
      I can hear my daughter just fine on a crowded playground. It's all about spending a decent amount of time with your own children.
    • andi999 6y ago
      Any sources? At least my experience tells differently.
      • AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
        Yes, I provide this in my follow-up reply to my comment. [0] All humans have the capability to intricately form an aural bond with their own (and other) children if they have enough meaningful interactions with that child. But there is nonetheless a specific change brought about in women during their first pregnancy that gives them an advantage on this front, especially with their own children. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26254581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26254581
    • dagw 6y ago
      human mothers have a unique trait through which they can identify the cries of their particular child, even at a playground where a lot of kids are making noise. That has nothing to do with being a mother and everything to do with spending a lot of time with that child. I'll bet that anybody who spends enough time with a child will be able to do that, regardless of that persons gender or genetic relation to the child.
      • AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
        Please see my general response to all the negativity I've received here [0]. To address your specific point, though, which was echoed by others in this thread, there is a lot of truth to the human ability to hone their auditory memory, especially when it comes to sounds that fall within the human auditory frequency range. Many of us have experienced this phenomenon not only with their own and others' children, but also with their house pets (especially cats and parrots), and even machines (i.e., your car, your air conditioner, your server, etc.) Nonetheless, as I have shown, there is a particular biological difference exhibited between first-time mothers and first-time fathers. Nothing about this statement invalidates or calls into question your own statement and I agree with it wholeheartedly. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26254581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26254581
        • barry-cotter 6y ago
          I taught kindergarten for five years and I was able to identify more than 30 children’s voices whether they were speaking out making some unidentifiable utterance. Humans are really good at distinguishing very small differences in the vocal range of sounds.
    • rtuulik 6y ago
      If you spend more time with your child, you will also develop this "magical" power.
    • AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
      I am shocked by the responses I have received to this comment. First off, I thought it was a lot more conventionally understood that mothers' bodies undergo permanent hormone-driven changes during pregnancy - and that these changes yield some more-or-less common outcomes across cultures and locales. [0] One of those outcomes is the following: > The researchers found that the mothers had surprisingly consistent responses to their crying babies, “and in a very short amount of time from the start of the cry, five seconds, they preferred to pick up and hold or to talk to their infant,” Bornstein said. I also thought it was much more conventionally understood that fathers do not exhibit the same changes as mothers do. [1] Nevertheless, I want to make it clear that I do not have children. My understanding of this phenomenon stems from my background in psychoacoustics, not child-rearing. Second, though, and perhaps more importantly, I am pretty disappointed in this community for laboring to interpret my points as misogynistic, out of touch with modern norms, or whatever, when a simple google search would have easily brought my points into context. Perhaps I failed to follow the conventions of citing resources to learn more about these things, but as I already indicated I didn't do this because I thought the majority of those commenting would have already been aware of this research. I apologize for not including it and I will try to do better in the future. [0] https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/23/health/moms-babies-crying-response-universal-study https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/23/health/moms-babies-crying-res... [1] https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/womens-mens-brains-respond-differently-hungry-infants-cries https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/womens-mens-br...
• JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  They say because people from India that move to Britain still have low SIDS incidence, that its cultural. How about, genetic?
  • throwanem 6y ago
    I look forward to your GWAS results!
    • JoeAltmaier 6y ago
      I look forward to a helpful reply to a question. Instead of snark.
      • throwanem 6y ago
        I suppose that's fair. Trivial literature review shows that there's nothing remotely resembling a discrete "SIDS gene", and that while there probably are genomic variations that can pose a subtle elevation of risk, that risk can't be evaluated outside the context of a given infant's environment and its effect on the likelihood of any such risk to materialize into SIDS proper. That genomic risk is so subtle that it can't even be quantified in the case of an individual infant; it's only discernible via broad whole-genome studies, and even their comprehensiveness and interpretation remains an open question [1]. So, in short, the framing of your prior comment, in which it can be cultural or it can be genetic, fails to capture the current best understanding - which is that it very probably is both cultural and genetic, and very probably as much or more the former than the latter. The snark probably isn't all that justified, I grant. But I don't like the attitude of genetic essentialism toward which your prior formulation gestures. That kind of thinking is fully a century out of date at this point, and the extent of harm it's done in the world during and since its heyday strikes me as ample reason to regard it with suspicious distaste. In another context I doubt I would give it such a curt and pithy response, but I think a higher than usual epistemological standard is fair here, and the research I've just summarized for you is literally a single Google search away. On the other hand, to construct that Google search requires that one know the term "GWAS" and what it means, so perhaps I've treated you a bit more harshly than you deserved. Still only a bit, though, I think; the kind of genetic essentialism I decry might have seemed reasonable a century ago, but these days it's sloppy thinking at best. Worse, that same imputation of clear and discrete gene-level variation in complex, often behavioral, traits, across whole human populations, without any reproductive isolation to make such an idea even barely plausible even in a case where we're talking about traits that might potentially be primarily gene-linked - we call that "eugenics", a pseudoscience whose utter epistemological baselessness and staggering moral hazard are at this point I think clearly enough understood as to require no enumeration for anyone with even a rudimentary sense of history - at least I hope they are! If I'm wrong about that, we're all in for a deal of horror. In any case, I suppose I've committed the error of expecting someone to know more than perhaps was reasonable, so I'll apologize for that. What you said deserved a critical response, rather than the glib one I initially gave it. I hope I've improved somewhat on that initial response here. [1] https://genomemedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/gm207 https://genomemedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/gm... (2010, conclusions incrementally refined by later literature)
• LegitShady 6y ago
  No,no it's not. Things can be different without being weird. Weird is a judgement while different is a fact. For example, I could say BBC opinion pieces are weird garbage but that would be an opinion. I could say "man it's weird this is so high up on hackernews with no comments and six points", that would be an opinion too.
  • ericmay 6y ago
    I agree. How can it be weird anyway? Isn’t culture relative? I always get so confused by these things.
    • ihsw 6y ago
      Culture is relative but Western (ie: white) culture is "weird." The cognitive dissonance is palpable.
  • genrez 6y ago
    I think that the article is trying to point out that some western parenting practices are potentially harmful to infants. In this case, "weird" is a very kind way of expressing the articles concern.
    • LegitShady 6y ago
      It doesn't, though. It mentions sids a lot but then quotes a doctor to say the research is unclear. Other countries experience sids at reduced rates but its not clear if thats because of bed sharing, and there's no evidence in the article one way or another. If they want to point out potential harmful behaviours, they should do that, and then they would get called out on doing so with little to no evidence. Instead they went with "weird" because they have no argument per se.
      • genrez 6y ago
        I agree that the article does choose not to say that their claims are backed with evidence. The article in fact does correctly state that they don't have evidence that bed-sharing is safer. However, they do state that room-sharing is current pediatric best practice, and provide links [1], [2] to articles to back that up. Given that as far as I know, room-sharing is not standard Western parenting practice, I believe they have backed up with an appeal to authority the idea that Western style parenting is harmful. Furthermore, link [1] contains a link to [3] which is an recommendation from a pediatric journal that provides links to scientific papers that suggest room-sharing reduces SIDS risk by up to 50%. (see bullet point 4 of link [3]) Thus I think the appeals to authority are backed by evidence. Thus I think that the article could have made a stronger point if they had talked about room sharing more instead of bed sharing, but I think they do have an evidence backed point that Western parenting is potentially harmful. They avoid ruffling parent's feathers too much by understating their point. [1]: https://www.aap.org/en-us/advocacy-and-policy/aap-health-initiatives/safe-sleep/Pages/Safe-Sleep-Recommendations.aspx https://www.aap.org/en-us/advocacy-and-policy/aap-health-ini... [2]: https://www.lullabytrust.org.uk/safer-sleep-advice/ https://www.lullabytrust.org.uk/safer-sleep-advice/ [3]: https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/138/5/e20162938 https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/138/5/e201629...
• sgarrity 6y ago
  Yes! As a person raising kids in "the Western way", we ARE weird. Obviously, this is a broad oversimplification, but I do think the way we manage our kids time and limit their freedom is problematic. That said, I think many of the problems stem from good intentions and unintended consequences. For example: 1. We don't want our kids to get hit by a car, so we tell them only to play in the back yard. 2. In many homes, both parents want a fulfilling career, so most kids are in some kind of child-care after school, so our kids don't have others to play with in the neighbourood.
  • meowster 6y ago
    I'll copy a comment I wrote elsewhere in this thread: I volunteer with a U.S. Scout troop. I see boys that don't know whether or not they can go on an activity/campout because they have to ask their parents if they're free that day/weekend. I try to tell them their old enough (most are teenagers) that they should start deciding for themselves what activities they participate in. Most all of them just seem apathetic. I'm sure their parents are trying to do what is best for their children, but it doesn't seem to be working.
• christiansakai 6y ago
  The only weird one to me is the western way "do not hit your kids." Downvotes welcome.
  • statictype 6y ago
    Its less prevalent in Asia than it used to be. I got hit as a kid. It wasnt a big deal. But we dont as a rule, discipline our own son in the same way.
    • christiansakai 6y ago
      I got hit a lot as well. It wasn't a big deal. My brother got hit a lot as well. I grew up antisocial and my brother grew up super social. It is not the hit, it is the words. Parents manipulate their children using words, and that's worse in my eyes.
      • benjohnson 6y ago
        Agreed - my dad spanked me, but my mother spoke her contempt for me with words. The bruises healed much more quickly than the emotional scaring.
        • christiansakai 6y ago
          damn, this hits too close too home. I'm still so messed up after all those words. and I am 34 now. I forgot completely about the bruising as it never existed, but those words haunt me forever.
          • benjohnson 6y ago
            I know this is not the forum for it, but here's what helped for me: 1) Write every horrible event down in excruciating detail. For me that gave my mind the permission to forget/heal/move-in. 2) Explore the possibility that the abuser was abused themselves and that while that is not an excuse, it does make it more comprehensible. If you do find the a chain of abuse, then recognize that you have the wonderful opertunity to break the chain. It won't be easy. 3) Recognize the problem of over compensating - I was abused, but I over-compensated by smothering my children with love. I needed to give them a bit of space. 4) Talk about it to people that love you. A hug is nice. For me, I internalized the abuse and thought that I was unlovable. I am weird, but people do love me - that's a surprise. Good luck with your healing!
• alex_anglin 6y ago
  Another great example of Betteridge's law.
  • statstutor 6y ago
    Nothing culturally Western will ever be considered weird by people in the West, by definition.
    • benjohnson 6y ago
      Quite the contrary - we seem to have made a sport of hating our own culture. Even the good bits.
    • osterreich0000 6y ago
      Unless you're a psychologist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology#WEIRD_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology#WEIRD_bias
• agent008t 6y ago
  Western = Anglophone? I suspect cultural norms are quite different in Italy, Greece, Spain and other countries.
  • lucideer 6y ago
    These cultural norms might be less widespread in Italy, Greece, Spain, but I would say they're closer to being norms in those countries than outside of Europe. Especially with younger parents. They're certainly norms in most of the non-anglophone EU. That said, I guess a lot of that could potentially be connected to outsized anglophone/US influence in developed countries.
    • phabora 6y ago
      Do you have a lot of experience with multiple EU countries?[1] Or are you just using “outsized influence” to extrapolate that non-English speaking countries can be neatly categorized as being a homogeneous contrast to English-speaking countries? [1] The only anglophone EU country is Ireland.
      • lucideer 6y ago
        > Do you have a lot of experience with multiple EU countries? Yes. > The only anglophone EU country is Ireland. Technically, though I would still tend to think of the UK here too given the recent-ness of its membership.
• rapsey 6y ago
  Western culture is different in a significant way. Individualism is valued much more than in the east. This is an established sociological fact.
  • jokethrowaway 6y ago
    While what you say is true, I think it's debatable whether this is reflected in our childcare practices.
  • blarg1 6y ago
    Funny the next article after this one is actually about that. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201231-how-the-way-you-think-was-shaped-centuries-ago https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201231-how-the-way-you-...
  • decafninja 6y ago
    One of the biggest ways I see is the idea of when to move out of your parents' household. At least in American society, it's considered imperative to move out ASAP - when leaving for college, or at the latest, upon graduating. Even if it means dumping a huge portion of your paycheck into rent for place barely 15 minutes from your parents' home. In other societies it's more common to live with your parents well into adulthood. Marriage is often the point where you have to move out.
    • phabora 6y ago
      That’s not the case where I live in the small non-American West. We’ve all seen the American TV show/films where some Mega Loser has failed to move out the year they become eighteen and graduated the year they become twenty-two. Maybe it comes off as a trope for non-Americans.
      • decafninja 6y ago
        In America, if you don't move out ASAP, you are considered a failure, a loser, a (wo)man-child, etc. In other countries (or even cultural enclaves in the US), it's considered perfectly normal and acceptable. You'll see highly paid professionals like medical doctors, hedge fund managers or SWEs making huge salaries living with their parents.
• itsmemattchung 6y ago
  Definitely something that my wife and I struggle with. She's Vietnamese British, I'm Vietnamese American ; both of us current living in the U.S. Despite what our training classes recommend, we're co-sleeping with our 17 month year old daughter and it feels more intuitive.
  • nomdep 6y ago
    So - if you don't mind the question, sorry for asking if you do - how/when you have sex?
    • steve_adams_86 6y ago
      Not the person you asked but I’ve co-slept three times and have some insights. My answer would be that you do it while the baby sleeps, and you do it less. Otherwise on the odd occasion you’re away from the baby. It’s a drag. Though in my experience I was always so tired, it was generally a lower priority. Others might have had a different experience though.
      • itsmemattchung 6y ago
        > Though in my experience I was always so tired, it was generally a lower priority. This. As new parents, we really have to make it a priority otherwise, in general, we're just constantly exhausted. Raising kids does really require a village.
        • deleted 6y ago
          [deleted]
    • dfee 6y ago
      This shouldn’t be downvoted. Indeed, this is something our physician brought up with us as a reason not to let your child join you. The theory goes that children are programmed by nature to prevent more offspring. A sort of incentive here. Looking online there are mixed reviews of whether co sleeping hurt the adult relationship.
• DC1350 6y ago
  Your kid doesn’t need their own room. In fact, neither do you. Everyone could live so much more carbon efficiently if we accepted communal living. Like dorm rooms. People all around the world rent small apartments with their extended families, and sometimes even other families. The only reason people in the west believe they need a single family home is because they’re entitled and have a weird focus on individualism. Share a bed with your kids if you don’t want to be weird. Everyone else is doing it. Charlie and the chocolate factory style.
  • tw04 6y ago
    Or, they like having sex? I'm not having sex with my kid sleeping in the same room. And I'm not particularly interested in having to manage my sex life around my kids sleep schedule. I don't know why you think adults wanting a space they can do whatever they want without their kids witnessing the activity means they have a "weird focus on individualism".
    • tibbydudeza 6y ago
      Drop the kids of at school/daycare/grandparents - come back home :).
      • steve_adams_86 6y ago
        That’s not an option for many (most?) people
      • tw04 6y ago
        >Drop the kids of at school/daycare So, while we're both working? >grandparents One is on the other side of the country, the other is 2 hours away. So... sex three days a year?
        • germinalphrase 6y ago
          Do you assume the child never sleeps? Even co-sleeping, our son would go to sleep before us (either staying in the bed on the floor or being transferred to a crib). There can be other places in the home to be intimate.
• dfxm12 6y ago
  As I reach the age where some of my friends are starting to have kids in a Western country, one thing I've noticed is that they all seem to have different ideas about raising kids, between diets, sleeping habits, baby bjorns, what language(s) to read to them in, how to get them to walk/talk, etc. I wouldn't call any of them weird (although I honestly don't have much of a baseline understanding), but I have a hard time figuring out how exactly you can generalize a Western way of raising kids.
  • jokethrowaway 6y ago
    What your doctor / nationalised health care system is recommending sounds like a good approach
    • ed25519FUUU 6y ago
      Honestly doctors can spread a lot of disinformation on things not biologically related. For example, our pediatrician recommended we wait until 3 to potty train our son... who at the time was already potty trained. Potty training is also something that differs widely between developed nations and rest of world.
      • aequitas 6y ago
        I think that has to do with the fact that not all children are able to learn/sense it at a young age. Telling parents their kids should be potty trained before the age of 3 could have the parent put pressure on the kid resulting in worse behaviour or aversion to using the toilet, lengthening the process even further. It's just easier to advice to "start at 3". Especially since nowadays more parents both work fulltime and will have less time to properly observe and guide the process at earlier age.
        • deleted 6y ago
          [deleted]
      • rootusrootus 6y ago
        > Potty training is also something that differs widely between developed nations and rest of world. And between kids. My daughter just up and decided at around 18 months or so that she was done with diapers and would use the big girl potty. Not one accident. My son was more apathetic about the whole thing, and it was sometime past his third birthday before he finally started using the toilet to poop in. The piece of advice that stuck with me ... don't bother trying, they'll do it themselves when they're ready, and you probably can't accelerate it.
• diegocg 6y ago
  >A 2016 review that looked at research on children sharing not just a room but a bed with one or more of their parents found a high prevalence in many Asian countries: Let me guess: there is a high correlation between sharing your room and poverty levels?
  • pj1115 6y ago
    I think you'd find some evidence for historical poverty being one factor of several in cultural practices of bed sharing. Japan would be a notable exception (plenty of co-sleeping, unremarkable poverty rate). I also don't think it has become much less common in communities where poverty levels have fallen. Anecdotally, my SO is part of a community originally displaced from India and now settled all over the world, where members have disproportionately become very wealthy. Bed sharing is absolutely the norm in those households, much to my distress when we visit her family!
    • Clewza313 6y ago
      Not sure what you mean by Japan being an exception? Bed-sharing remains very much the default there.
      • pj1115 6y ago
        I was trying to say that this is common in Japan, where poverty is almost certainly not the major factor. A counter to the parent comment's assertion. Should have been clearer.
  • 88840-8855 6y ago
    >there is a high correlation between sharing your room and poverty levels? might be one variable. Another could be "average size of a typical home in sqm" and "population density of city where family resides"
  • TomK32 6y ago
    30 percent of British children are living in poverty. https://cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/child-poverty-facts-and-figures https://cpag.org.uk/child-poverty/child-poverty-facts-and-fi...
• alistairSH 6y ago
  Of all the "weird" things we do as parents in euro/anglo nations, sleeping arrangements seems nowhere near the top. IMO, the top "offender" is over-scheduling kid's activities. So many kids in my area have their days booked solid with sports, academic tutoring, music lessons. Approaching zero free time to enjoy being a kid. Edit - and this isn't really a western thing, "Tiger Mom" and similar probably pre-dates this behavior in the US.
  • meowster 6y ago
    I volunteer with a U.S. Scout troop. I see boys that don't know whether or not they can go on an activity/campout because they have to ask their parents if they're free that day/weekend. I try to tell them their old enough (most are teenagers) that they should start deciding for themselves what activities they participate in. Most all of them just seem apathetic. I'm sure their parents are trying to do what is best for their children, but it doesn't seem to be working.
    • threatofrain 6y ago
      I don’t know what it means for kids to be free nowadays. Free to visit a friend’s home seems like the only thing, because everything else is a home that’s an anonymous unit or a commercial establishment that’s gated by money. It’s not like you’re releasing your child to be raised by the experiences of the village. With that in mind, many parents are probably struggling to not have their kids consumed by the web during free time, esp during COVID lockdowns.
      • alistairSH 6y ago
        We raised my son in the DC suburbs (Herndon, VA). There is still a "town center" of sorts, with several parks nearby. So, free for him meant a combo of going to friends (mostly in the same large subdivision), getting to school on his own (bike, board, foot, bus), and running around after school (parks, downtown, whatever - I know a few of his common haunts, but didn't track his every waking moment).
      • 6y ago
• jokethrowaway 6y ago
  I wonder how much is caused by having both parents working. Kids were raised differently 50-70 years ago when one salary was enough for a family.
  • meowster 6y ago
    I wonder if salaries were more competitive because there were less workers? If the cultural norm was to only have one parent work, then it seems like the supply of workers essentially doubles* if both parents work, leading to less competitive wages. *not exactly, but essentially. Yes, not everyone is married etc.
    • osterreich0000 6y ago
      This is what's known as the "lump of labour" fallacy - the idea that there's a fixed amount of work that needs to be done, therefore opening the job market to more workers necessarily lowers wages due to "increased supply". The reality is that increasing the supply of workers doesn't necessarily mean increased competition for jobs. More people available to work means that more can be produced across the board; each additional worker can create opportunities for further additional workers. The pie can be grown at the same time that it's sliced more ways.
      • deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      • meowster 6y ago
        > each additional worker can create opportunities for further additional workers By more people working, we created more opportunities for more people to work? I think there is a fallacy within that "lump of labour fallacy". I'm not saying there is a fixed amount of work needed, but eventually you do run into economies of scale: less and less addional work is needed to support more people. Hasn't cost of living and other expenses have increased faster than wage growth? With more jobs just for the sake of creating jobs, does each additional job pay the same or more? I'm of the opinion that we need more opportunities for people to work less, so they can have more time for raising kids or persuing hobbies.
• kkwteh 6y ago
  From the perspective of the Lindy principle it is weird. I have an eighteen-month old child and have been reading a lot about child rearing since my wife got pregnant. It’s taboo to say this, and I’m sorry if this offends anyone, but I suspect that a lack of adult attention in the first three years of life is a principal factor in the rising autism rates we’re seeing in modern economies. This would explain why autism seems to “cluster” in upper class homes, where the parents work nonstop. It turns out this hypothesis was put forth by Kanner in the 50’s and is as old as autism itself, but it was rejected for political reasons and it is not refuted by the science. I first heard this hypothesis from the lectures of Gabor Maté, and it makes a lot of sense to me. If you look at what autism treatment actually is, it’s all just play therapy where you give a child attention and teach them that if they bid for an adult’s attention they will respond empathetically. This treatment only makes sense if they didn’t already learn to do this as an infant.
  • dfxm12 6y ago
    I suspect that a lack of adult attention in the first three years of life is a principal factor in the rising autism rates we’re seeing in modern economies. This would explain why autism seems to “cluster” in upper class homes, where the parents work nonstop. Upper class parents don't necessarily need to work non stop, and when they do, they can afford to have an adult give their kids attention. To make this claim, you have to show that upper class parents neither give their kids attention nor hire a nanny/au pair/have a grandparent looking after their kids.
  • jbob2000 6y ago
    Checkout this article, "Childhood autism spikes in geek heartlands": https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20589-childhood-autism-spikes-in-geek-heartlands%20/?ignored=irrelevant https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20589-childhood-autis... There's a correlation between parents who are both "systemizers" and their child having autism. I've also heard the theory that Austism is basically what we've been genetically selecting for over the last 100 years or so - the world wants brainless consumers - what is better than someone with sensory disorders, who can be primed to get up and buy with a simple prick?
• wayneftw 6y ago
  I'm amazed that corporal punishment in schools is still legal throughout much of the US [0]. Perhaps it's mostly not used. I'm not sure because I went to school in New Jersey where it's outlawed even in private schools. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_...
  • dfxm12 6y ago
    I thought this was going to be a case where it's not explicitly spelled out in the constitution, so it's not expressly illegal unless a state makes it so. But no, corporal punishment has been codified to be expressly legal in some states! Can you imagine fighting for the right to legally beat a child? Not even your own child, but someone else's?
    • tryonenow 6y ago
      >Can you imagine fighting for the right to legally beat a child? Can you imagine fighting to keep unruly children undisciplined? Not even your own child, but someone else's? There's no need for sensationalism. Some kids don't listen to words. The idea that you can always reason with children is nonsensical - they're irrational and immature, and considering that physical punishment has been the norm throughout history, I doubt it has a significant effect on adult violence when used appropriately, especially when weighed against the value of discipline.
  • wayneftw 6y ago
    Hmmm - Sorry for bringing this up, HN.
• dlisboa 6y ago
  Outside of neglect and abuse, is there really a WRONG way of raising a child? You see multiple different styles in different cultures. Some cultures where bed-sharing and baby-carrying is common also beat their kids and use other forms of punishment for disobedience. Wouldn't that be much "weirder"? It seems in Europe breastfeeding rates are really low and people use prams, but they might not beat the child as much (or at all). Is that the wrong way? It seems to me people who are loved and cared for as children are raised and generally become well-adjusted and happy individuals. I fear parents are being constantly judged now for not doing the latest thing that some research found, the latest fad that may or may not have a tiny effect on the child's life itself. It probably gives people a lot of anxiety that they might be doing something terribly wrong for the child for not having the right crib height, or not sleeping in the same bed, or not playing Mozart at the right time or whatever.
  • xeromal 6y ago
    I love this take and believe in it whole-heartedly. It's very similar to how every shits on each others diets. Some people only eat rice, some potatoes, some meat, and some exclusively ocean. Humans are very versatile and durable and really can make due with most things. The same probably applies to raising children too.
  • watwut 6y ago
    I suspect that pram vs carrying thing has a lot more to do with practicalities then anything else. Quality of sidewalks, availability of good changing places, how far you need to go and how much stuff you carry.
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  • PebblesRox 6y ago
    I agree and I really dislike the undercurrent of fear that's present in a lot of parenting advice. The message (implicitly or explicitly) tends to be "do it this way or you'll damage your kids." But the truth is we're never going to be perfect parents, we have no guarantees over how our kids turn out, and there are a wide range of approaches that will lead to good outcomes. I like to do research to discover options I might not have come up with on my own, but I always try to pay attention to those subtle messages of fear so they don't influence my decisions too much.
• williesleg 6y ago
  Yeah that's why we free-range all our h1b kids' kids. Let 'em roam and do anything.
• PebblesRox 6y ago
  I recommend Sweet Sleep as a resource for anyone interested in cosleeping/bedsharing. It gives a lot of practical advice and looks at the research to address the safety concerns. The conclusion is that bedsharing will multiply existing risk factors for SIDS but if those risk factors are already low, adding bedsharing into the mix does not increase the risk by a significant amount (assuming it's done in accordance with safety guidelines). https://www.amazon.com/Sweet-Sleep-Nighttime-Strategies-Breastfeeding/dp/0345518470/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=sweet+sleep&qid=1614180639&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Sweet-Sleep-Nighttime-Strategies-Brea...
  • bitshiftfaced 6y ago
    I was under the impression that the risk of SIDS isn't the only thing when it comes to bed sharing. Adult beds are softer and have more give, so babies get turned over more easily so that their airway can get blocked in the mattress. There are more things like pillows and blankets that can get block the airway. And then there's of course the parent that's sleeping next to them. Do all of those risks get clumped into SIDS when it comes to these statistics?
    • em-bee 6y ago
      that's an interesting observation. beds in asia are traditionally harder from what i have observed, so that might be a factor.
    • PebblesRox 6y ago
      The other part of the equation is practicing safe bedsharing practices like the safe sleep seven guidelines: "If you are: 1. A nonsmoker 2. Sober and unimpaired 3. A breastfeeding mother and your baby is: 4. Healthy and full-term 5. On his back 6. Lightly dressed and you both are: 7. On a safe surface Then your baby in bed with you is at no greater risk for SIDS than if he’s nearby in a crib."[0] A safe sleep surface means the mattress is not too soft (we tested our adult mattress to make sure it met the standards for crib mattresses), no gaps by the wall that the baby can get wedged in, bed only (no couch or recliner), light bedding, sleepwear without long ribbons or drawstrings that can strangle, etc. It's important to do the research and not be cavalier about the risks, but I think it's worth learning how to work around them so everyone can get great sleep. [0] https://www.llli.org/the-safe-sleep-seven/ https://www.llli.org/the-safe-sleep-seven/
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• Cthulhu_ 6y ago
  To be blunt and controversial, do people living in the mentioned region (Asia) even HAVE multiple rooms / a nursery? I mean I don't.
• mpalmer 6y ago
  > Kuroda [...] didn’t find any correlation between the amount of time babies were carried and the amount they cried. "I couldn’t agree with that," she says. > Her research found that carrying a baby reduced [...] how much they cried. ...what?
  • Clewza313 6y ago
    Existing research said there was no correlation. Her research says there is a correlation. Gotta say common sense is on Kuroda's side here, it's super common for babies to cry in strollers and then quiet down the moment they're picked up and held/plopped into a baby carrier.
    • teddyh 6y ago
      Commonly observed: https://bonkersworld.net/baby-care https://bonkersworld.net/baby-care
  • svat 6y ago
    This is an example of how you can change the meaning completely by dropping the right words. The part that you quoted as “Kuroda [...] didn’t find any correlation” is actually “Kuroda […] saw that previous research […] didn’t find any correlation” (and that's what she couldn't agree with), specifically: > Kuroda began looking into the physiological effects of carrying infants when she saw that previous research, which used parental diaries rather than real-time physiological measurements, didn’t find any correlation between the amount of time babies were carried and the amount they cried. "I couldn’t agree with that," she says. Her research found that carrying a baby reduced their heart rate and movement as well as how much they cried. and so on.
• Dumblydorr 6y ago
  The only thing I feel certain of is that hitting children or abusing them is a sad unnecessary practice. Adults need the wisdom and sense to handle problems with logic and words. Physical violence is simply bullying and using superior size and strength, which is irrelevant in the modern world and which predisposes your children to violent behaviors.
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  • rajin444 6y ago
    What makes you feel certain of this? I may be wrong, but a majority of human history seems to point to (roughly) "spanking is ok, anything more is not". Children do not understand logic the same as adults.
    • zeku 6y ago
      I really don't believe this is true. I was spanked my whole childhood. It never taught me one single thing, because I just wanted to know "why" X was bad and I was never told. It was no more effective than just telling me no. People use spanking as a crutch, it really has no place in the child raising toolkit imo.
      • NortySpock 6y ago
        So the explanation is more important than the spanking (or other discipline).
      • AnimalMuppet 6y ago
        Depends on the kid, and depends on when. When you were one, you might have listened to "no", but there are plenty of kids who don't. And it matters because of things like wanting to play in the street. I can't tell a one-year-old what two tons of car moving at 30 miles an hour is going to do to them. But I can train them that every time they play in the street, it hurts. That sounds cruel. On the other hand, letting them get hit by a car is much more cruel, and not all of us have fenced front yards. I have no problem with spanking for safety issues. But be careful, because a kid in danger triggers fear and panic in parents, and once the crisis is over, that seems to almost automatically morph into anger. Do not spank in anger, ever.
• nineplay 6y ago
  "Parents in <X> are better parents than you" is a real crowd pleaser when it comes to a chance to explain why your <personal pet peeve about modern parenting> has just been Validated by Science. Someone once said that there is no more a right way to 'parent' than there is a right way to 'spouse' or 'child'. Everyone is different, every relationship is different. When I give advice to new parents, I tell them exactly that. Their relationship with their kid is going to be specific to them and their kid, and don't feel pressured to do things the 'right' way by an external source.
  • rootusrootus 6y ago
    IMO that is excellent advice. But we should continue to keep the threes a secret from potential parents, or the birth rate may go down even more precipitously.
• rayiner 6y ago
  I wouldn't call it "weird" but there's certainly advantages and disadvantages. Bed sharing is one area where my wife (American) and I (Asian) have decided to do things the Asian way. By that, I mean I chose to do things the Asian way since I'm the nighttime parent. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210222-the-unusual-ways-western-parents-raise-children https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210222-the-unusual-ways... > Debmita Dutta, a doctor and parenting consultant in Bangalore, India, says that despite Western influences, bedsharing remains a strong tradition in India – even in households where children have their own rooms. "A family of four has three bedrooms, one each for each child and for the parents, and then you would find both the children in the parent's bed," she says. "It's that common." > Bedsharing is one way to reduce the burden of babies waking up at night, says Dutta. Her own daughter had a rollout bed next to her parents' that she could sleep on until she was seven years old. "Even after she stopped breastfeeding, she still liked to sleep with us in the same room," she says. I gave up on sleep training for precisely that reason. It's super easy for me to feed the baby a bottle and get it back to sleep without even really waking up. But sleep training involved multi-hour sessions in the middle of the night where my daughter would make herself puke, sometimes more than once in the same night, sometimes followed by dry-heaving in protest after her stomach was empty. After a bit she was able to sleep on a sofa-sleeper in our room, which she quickly vacated when our second was born (due to the crying at night). I didn't even try sleep training with our second--I felt so guilty leaving him alone in a crib, with him standing holding the bars like some sort of prisoner.
• gdubs 6y ago
  One of the hardest thing about being a parent today is the constant shame and confusion about the “right” way to do it. We don’t live in a hunter gatherer society anymore, we just don’t. There’s lots of wisdom in that way of life, and sure we could learn from it — but there’s enough anxiety as it is, parents don’t need more of it. We have three kids and we sleep trained them. (Not a pediatrician, standard disclaimer.) This article calls it an ‘extreme’ practice. For us, ‘extreme’ was the sleep deprivation we experienced with baby number one as we tried every ‘no cry’ method in the book. The baby cried and cried and cried. Once we started sleep training, there was a bit of crying and then - a sleeping baby! Through the night! Total amount of crying went from hours to zero. The kid became happier — they weren’t sleep-deprived anymore. And neither were we. I no longer felt like I was going to drop the ball due to extreme exhaustion. Babies two and three had the benefit of our experience, and they barely cried at all. The third one would lay down eyes-open and fall asleep. “So it actually does happen! — I thought the books must be lying.” By all objective measures our kids are happy, healthy, and well-adjusted. But that doesn’t mean we still don’t get the stink eye from people who think it’s a cruel practice. Just raise your kids with love. Be compassionate, and patient. Find a doctor you trust. Don’t let people add to an already stressful endeavor.
  • eurusdac 6y ago
    I agree, my advice to any new parent would be to listen carefully to advice about how not to drown your child while bathing them, and how to make sure they're not suffocated by their bedding. Both real issues where some simple practices avoid the small risk of an absolutely catastrophic outcome. Then take all other advice with a pinch of salt. Just follow your best instincts and do what seems right. Your child will be fine, plus you'll be more relaxed, you'll appreciate the time with them more. You'll have more time and emotional energy to understand and respond to how they are doing as well as how you and your partner are feeling, and your instincts will get better and better.
    • JKCalhoun 6y ago
      For myself, the risk SIDS didn't even enter my calculus. (I confess I am a little skeptical that it exists at all.) Regardless, I perceived the emotional bonding with the mother & father to far outweigh anything else and so we shared our bed with our children until they were perhaps 1 year old or so. And even after, they moved into their own small bed just a foot from ours in the same bedroom for another year or so. I guess that was my "instinct". Although we received a crib as a gift, it just sat in another room, empty.
• cloudc0de 6y ago
  > For her part, Kuroda co-slept with her four children as a way to adapt to being away from them during the day. "I'm working full time and if I separate the whole night, it's really minimal time for the baby. We can intensely communicate, even in the nighttime. It’s real communication and time together." IMO the rise in attachment parenting methods stems from the high rate of mothers working full-time outside the home, feeling guilty about being away from their children all day and "missing out" on developmental milestones, or feeling guilty about a minimum wage daycare worker spending more waking hours with their children than they do, and trying to 'make up' for this lost time with co-sleeping and other attachment methods. I view this parenting style as a sort of pathological paternalism, it's presented as being in the child's best interest, when in reality it's a psychological need of (usually) the mother. Babies need lots and lots of high-quality, restful sleep, and the families that seem to be dealing with serious sleep deprivation issues for both parent and baby are usually in the attachment camp.
  • sethammons 6y ago
    We did co-sleeping with our kids. The motivation was our own sleep. Mom could feed baby with near-zero fuss. We moved away from it as they started sleeping through the night.
• ConfusedDog 6y ago
  I slept with my grandma, mother when I was a child <10. That's because our apartments were super tiny back then in China. It isn't much of a choice. My son is sleep-trained to sleep alone in his room. At first, he would refuse and cry, and he woke up every once awhile, later he just got use to it and slept 12 hour straight. Not only he slept without any distraction (me), but also it is much easier on me as well. Important metric I think is whether the baby sleep enough, rather than style of parenting. Sometimes it is just economic factor.
• nathias 6y ago
  Yes, everything humans do is weird.
• llimos 6y ago
  Speaking as a parent of 5. Parental mental health has a much bigger effect on the child than choice of methodologies. You really need to look after yourself before you can look after them - so if you are suffering from sleep deprivation, doing what you have to do is the right thing to do. Put your own oxygen mask on first.
  • faitswulff 6y ago
    Exactly this. Being able to stay sane, levelheaded, and get necessary things done is probably far more impactful than sleep methodologies, baby wearing, breast versus formula fed, or any of the thousand of analysis paralysis inducing choices that parents have to make.
• hackitup7 6y ago
  I highly recommend the book Cribsheet on this topic (https://www.amazon.com/Cribsheet-Data-Driven-Relaxed-Parenting-Preschool/dp/0525559256 https://www.amazon.com/Cribsheet-Data-Driven-Relaxed-Parenti...). The author is an economist at Brown and applies research techniques to determine where there are causal relationships between parental behavior and child outcomes. For example, she looks into the research behind breastfeeding vs formula – a very hot topic where I already see the pitchforks coming out in this thread. Her conclusion if I'm recalling correctly is that there are only relatively minor direct benefits to breast milk over formula. But there are significant benefits to being the type of parent that is intense + dedicated enough to breast feed despite how unpleasant many mothers find it to be, and that dedication explains why studies turn up larger differences in outcomes between breastfed vs formula fed babies (it's just correlation vs causation).
• Aunche 6y ago
  One thing that I find weird about the Western (perhaps just American) way of raising kids is that the retired population is surprisingly uninvolved in the raising of their grandchildren. It seems like an economic inefficiency when parents are spending so much money on childcare while old people are feeling increasingly lonely.
  • bluGill 6y ago
    There are a lot of grand parents involved in the young, then the kids grow up and teens just don't need as much time and so the grand parents are lonely. There are a lot of lonely great-grand parents that someone fit into this. There are a lot of people who don't live close to the grand parents (but may have a sibling who does).
  • ksd482 6y ago
    Good point. I am an Indian, raised in India, came to US at 19. I notice the same thing here. We have neighbors who are white and have their grandkids over every day. It is very refreshing to see. However, it is a rare thing to see at the same time. I have never seen other native born Americans talk about their grandkids or heard of them being involved in their upbringing. I am cautious of the stereotypes such as when they retire, they just want to be left alone, travel and not be bothered. But the stories where they end up in old age homes while their children are fully grown adults and successful, are far too often. This doesn't make sense to me because on one hand they would look forward to their children and grandchildren visiting them in their old age homes, on the other hand they don't want to live together. Sure, I am fine with the idea "if it works for them, then good for them", but it doesn't seem to work for them. So to summarize, I think the American culture is still trying to figure itself out. Perhaps things would fall into place in a generation or two after learning from other cultures (and of course, other cultures learning some good things from American culture).
    • lotsofpulp 6y ago
      Assuming people have a good relationship with their parents, they would want them to be involved in their children's lives. The bigger issue, in my social circles at least, is that Americans don't live near the grandparents. The economic opportunities exist in a certain few areas, and either the parents aren't willing to take the economic/quality of life hit to leave near their grandparents, or the grandparents can't afford to come live near the grandkids. Especially in the "good school" district areas. The best situation I've seen is from Everybody Loves Raymond, grandparents nearby, but still in a separate house. But few grandparents will be located in the same neighborhood as the kids. Typically, similar size/price houses are located near each other, and the more expensive homes in with access to better schools come with higher property taxes/maintenance, which older people might not want to pay.
• walshemj 6y ago
  Not given the conditions in the west, Comparing conditions in one culture with radically different areas with different access to $ and other services - clean water for example. Some parts of the world still have mortality rates of over 20% up till the age of five.
• nmridul 6y ago
  Asia and other areas, there is the support from extended families for baby care. At night, there are grand parents / other in laws (brothers sisters) that take turn taking care of baby at night. And during day time too, you can leave babies with them and take proper rest.
• gumby 6y ago
  As a parent myself I have only one piece of child rearing advice. First: Read a bunch of books (which will contradict each other) Then: a) do what you think is right and b) when someone tells you to do X (especially, but not only your mother or mother in law), if you disagree just say "Funny you should say that because I just read the exact opposite" and hand them a random baby rearing book. This sounds like a joke but the biggest problem in child rearing is well meaning busybodies and we figured out this effective way to shut it down. (Busybodies who were strangers we just smiled at and ignored).
  • AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    But the books are also well-meaning busybodies. Worse: The books that most resonate with you may well be the ones you need to ignore. Take strict vs permissive parenting, for example. Say you're by nature a more permissive parenting. The books that say you should be permissive will resonate more with you than the books that say that you should be strict. But it's the ones that say to be strict that you need to hear, because they're the ones that are against your natural bent. (Nobody needed to tell you to be permissive, you were going to do that anyway.) (My position here is that either strict or permissive, taken too far, will be problematic. So you can swap strict and permissive in the previous paragraph, and everything is still true.) So don't just read parenting books and listen to the ones that strike a chord with you. It's the other ones that you need to carefully consider what they say.
    • gumby 6y ago
      Funny you should say that, I just read a comment on HN claiming the opposite. Let me search for it and then edit this comment with the link...
      • ianai 6y ago
        That’s the thing about the internet. If you posit P to be true then a vehement Not P believer will attack your comment with “fire and fury” and any form of attack that could work but still be false. And some of the times they’re correct of course and Not P is indeed true While P is not.
• renewiltord 6y ago
  Honestly, we're a damned resilient species. This is micro-optimization. Your kids are going to be awesome almost certainly, just like every generation so far has been more capable than the ones before. The science on this stuff is half-baked. The real evidence is very low. If you took the same standards people hold to something they don't want to happen (let's say legalization of LSD use) and then applied it to most of the papers, they'd fail the test.
• achenatx 6y ago
  I do whatever is most convenient for me. We slept with our babies until they were 3-4 months. I typically did all the nighttime stuff like changing diapers etc because I fall asleep so fast. I was never exhausted. They did breast feed, but I would put them in the right place while my wife slept, then when they were done would change the diaper. When they started to sleep 5+ hours we moved them to their own room. We did let them cry, but I could easily tell if it was going to ramp down or if their crying was getting worse. When she was 1 our oldest regressed and I slept in her room for a month so she wouldnt come wake us up. She regressed multiple times. Our middle child never came down because he slept with his sister until he was about 4. Our 5 year old has started coming down to wake me up 2-3 times at night. I told her to either sleep with her brother or sister and not to bother me (I do all nightime activities). I found kids books incredibly boring so didnt read to my kids. I hardly play kid games with my kids, though I do have them participate in things I like to do. Im trying to give them independence as quickly as possible. We have a rule that the youngest person that can do a job has to do the job. So the youngest has to fetch things, while the oldest is starting to make meals and do laundry. They only get internet from 6am-7am once they are ready for the day and in the evening once all their work is done. I have never had to wake any of them for school ever. If they complain about being bored they get to do chores. I dont really use anyones' advice and would never feel shame or confusion about how to raise my children. I do see how many of our parents are scared to parent their kids.
• Tommek 6y ago
  And look were it has brought us in comparison. Moon, Mars ... living for ages.
• bitwize 6y ago
  It should not be surprising that the societies most prone to toxic individualism have largely abandoned or forgotten the way children have been raised for thousands of years, in favor of ways that reinforce and perpetuate that toxic individualism.
• ketamine__ 6y ago
  > "Is he in his own room yet?" is a question new parents often field once they emerge from the haze of life with a newborn. But sleeping apart from our babies is a relatively recent development – and not one that extends around the globe. In other cultures sharing a room, and sometimes a bed, with your baby is the norm. Westerners have more sex?
• lifeplusplus 6y ago
  coming from another country i can see clear difference in how child are raised in usa. There as long as baby is with mom, fed on time, and kept clean. baby just grows up fine. few months are hectic but then their night time matches everyone else. Given there is afternoon nap. eventually they are like 5 and start playing with neighborhood kids and then it's just automatic.
• whatever1 6y ago
  The thing that I don’t get from the Western culture is what is the point of parenting? Both parents work and they immediately unload their baby to a day care. I was shocked to learn that 9 month babies are sent to day-cares. Is paying the bills for a human you barely see called parenting?
  • sangnoir 6y ago
    > The thing that I don’t get from the Western culture is what is the point of parenting? Childcare in US is particularly shocking to any non-American, but it's a natural result of the rugged sort of capitalism combined with a threadbare social safety net. > I was shocked to learn that 9 month babies are sent to day-cares. 9 months is actually on the older side, in the US. Daycares frequently enroll infants younger than a month. Maternity leave is ridiculously short in the US (IIRC, 3-weeks is mandated by the law, this includes pre- & post-partum). Some companies have started to go above and beyond, and even dropping the non-birthing parter a bone by giving them a few days :). Additionally, I don't think any person taking maternity leave is entitled to their full salary, and beyond 3 weeks, they are entitled to $0, which combined with at-will employment means you have to be get back to work ASAP. Childbirth itself is a very expensive endeavor - thousands of dollars for a vaginal birth with no complications, and tens of thousands for a cesarean. From
  • barry-cotter 6y ago
    Even with both parents working full time jobs the child spends more time with their parents than any other adult. They definitely get vastly more, and more focused one on one time as well. This is not “barely see” by any measure.
• shirro 6y ago
  Many of our civilisation's needs and desires have been created by marketers. Whether it is people selling expensive child care equipment or books promoting fads. You don't need most of that shit. There is some good stuff to know for health and safety but you have to think critically which is hard for a first time parent going into the unknown. We bought a lot of gear that never got used or which turned out to be less effective than simpler means.
• gnicholas 6y ago
  Highly recommend the work of economist Emily Oster, [1] who digs into the data around popular/important questions related to pregnancy/childhood. She looks at the 'popular wisdom' and then analyzes the relevant data. Her goal is to give parents information they can use to make informed choices about relative risk. Should you drink at all while pregnant? Is sleep training terrible (or amazing)? Dr. Oster gives nuanced answers to questions that are too often addressed as categorical imperatives. https://emilyoster.net/ https://emilyoster.net/
• jaimex2 6y ago
  Two kids, western parent. We don't sleep with them so we can be well rested the next day and be better parents for them. This includes making sure the relationship with your partner is in good standing. Prams are a convenient way to keep your children safe while being able to do your errands. Bending down especially with a child attached is not fun.
• sunny--tech 6y ago
  So I've recently become a father and have done a lot of reading into co-sleep, crib, etc out of my own paranoia of being a bad father and such. I could go on and on about the back and forth. The one thing I do want to say and point out that is many articles like this BBC one use statements like "the rest of the world" or is "common in many other cultures" when discussing co-sleep and other "older" practices. But what percentage of the world actually practices co-sleeping? While it is indeed common in Asia and Africa, only 40 percent of documented cultures practice co-sleep regularly [1]. So it has become a minority practice in the world at large, despite the fact that many blogs or articles make it seem like Western society is strange for not doing it as much. So instead of Western society being novel and strange, could it be that we're onto something? Saying "it's always been done this way" isn't a scientific statement. While having babies sleep in cribs is a newer practice, there is still a lot of data backing it. There is indeed some bad research when it comes to demonizing co-sleeping (equally equating co-sleeping parents who use drugs and alcohol with those who don't). But even when controlled for those variables, it still has been shown that co-sleeping still increases the risk of SIDS when there are no hazards present, although not as much as some studies suggest [1]. As a data driven person, when I read all of this, I opted to not co-sleep. It's just what a lot of data supports, so I don't see why it still gets demonized a lot. I'm not saying you shouldn't co-sleep. If you like it and want to do it, go for it. But I just don't understand the vilification of Western practices when it's been shown to work in many cases. 1: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/05/21/601289695/is-sleeping-with-your-baby-as-dangerous-as-doctors-say https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/05/21/6012896...
• BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 6y ago
  Infant monkeys cling to their mothers 24x7. Until very recently the vast majority of humans slept in one room huts with the youngest child next to the mother. My kids had their own beds, but slept with me until nine or ten until they decided to prefer their own beds.
• abraxas 6y ago
  I have a nine year old who still gets tucked in every night and I spend half an hour by his bedside every night listening to audiobook stories or just talking about his day. He was never a good sleeper. Since birth he needed human contact to fall asleep and stay asleep. Perhaps it's a genetic wiring or perhaps it's because wife and I are not believers in "sleep training". Our idea is that kids will loosen these ties on their own terms when ready i.e. when their nervous systems grow mature enough to feel safe sleeping on their own. Many will scoff at the fact that we have a nine year old who has a sleep routine of a five year old. And yet... he is one of the best performing kids in class, always outgoing, self confident, popular with peers and teachers alike without being an asshole to anyone younger or older. I'm a parent and I'm never going to judge another. But I think we're doing something right by our kid. But spending all this time by his side is taxing, not gonna lie.
• reader_x 6y ago
  What fascinates me about this topic is the amount of words spent on it, yet the topic of how/when to have conjugal relations with a kid sleeping in the room is never brought up. What is the norm about this in cultures that commonly cosleep? Do they stop having sex? Only get their loving on the fire escape?
• mensetmanusman 6y ago
  It was super stressful trying the crying it out method for our first child. (Now we have six.) What eventually worked, and in hindsight it makes a lot of sense, was to respond to their cries at longer and longer intervals, (e.g 1 min, 2 min, 3 min, etc.) At some point it seems babies get this wrong idea in their head that they are helping you when they are crying out. This slow weaning of response time teaches them that you are in fact close by, so it reduces their stress.
• blablaat 6y ago
  In Thailand (and most of Asia I guess) most parents share the bed with their baby up to a few years old or even longer. Mother and child on bed, father on the ground or opposite. Also a matter of available space. But for sure helps the bonding process to stay close to your little one. Sex life will suffer as a result I guess... Most times family is around the child all the time. Group behavior is spoon fed. And I do agree: a separate room for a new born is madness. Mother and child stay together. You see it in the animal kingdom, and that's what we are. Also nothing wrong with a plain mattress on the floor. No falling down risk, no bars, freedom. Be careful with bedding as usual.
• mbalex99 6y ago
  Though I was raised in the US. The one thing that I noticed that was weird was when my friends called their parents by the first name. Also it was weird how kids and parents were friends with each other. Not in my house! Parent and child had only two things of conversation school, not getting sick, and making sure I eat the food before it got cold.
• known 6y ago
  "You are a product of your environment" --Clement Stone (b. 1902) https://archive.is/yPhyn https://archive.is/yPhyn