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Ask HN: Co-founder wants me to leave but won't entertain a buy out offer

• elmerfud 6y ago
  Did they really pose it to you that way of take the 3% or they'll torch the company? Was it just a bluff because they'll own nothing too? I would talk to a lawyer and possibly the seed investor, but the lawyer first.
  • deleted 6y ago
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  • fortydegrees 6y ago
    The seed investor is remaining neutral. It's not so much that they'll torch the company. They're just saying they don't have the cash so need to reduce my stake. They will budge on the 3% I'm sure, but I don't value the equity much if I'm not involved. I'm not too sure what a lawyer would recommend at this point? I also can't really afford one personally - especially as I may be out of work soon haha..
    • friedman23 6y ago
      Don't give up a cent.
    • adrr 6y ago
      I don’t understand how “the need for cash” and “reducing your stake” are connected. If they need cash, they can raise another round and everyone gets diluted like normal. If you don’t value the equity, offer to sell it to the seed investor at a discount.
    • maccard 6y ago
      You need a lawyer, not internet advice.
    • shankspeaks 6y ago
      If you're not valuing the equity if you're not involved, then honestly you need to look at this from an opportunity cost perspective. The trust is fundamentally broken, so it's not really worthwhile to pursue this as collaborators. Unless you're keen to run the business yourself, there isn't much point in fighting this beyond getting your 1st year vesting. It's honestly not worth your time and energy fighting for something you're not keen to do. And it's definitely cheaper for them to give you 7% more than the 3% offered, and avoid all this hassle and potential legal expense. If you do want to persist, then you need the investor on your side, as otherwise you can't force the other person out (they'd still keep their 10% but that's the price you pay for that move). I have to say I find it really odd that someone who's invested $100k is being silent on this, or isn't worried about this situation, especially if the future of the business is now more of a lifestyle business. I fail to see how they'd get a return they'd expect. I'd assume they're actually on the other side, but want to appear neutral. FWIW if you end up leaving, I'd advise not agreeing to a non-compete or a non-disclosure. It's not about you starting a competitor, but more about them not being able to restrict your future options as they're forcing you out, and they will have to potentially consider the threat of you competing with them at any point in the future. It's a credit to your efforts that you've built the tech of business that's gotten such good traction and numbers, so you've got learnings and experience that will serve you in good stead in the future. It's just unfortunate that you ended up with such shitty partners. Good luck, and I assume quite a few of us will be hoping you bounce back from this, and rooting for you.
• jiveturkey 6y ago
  keep 40% of nothing. do not capitulate. you have the upper hand here, and an honorable position. 3% of nothing is nothing also. i’d go with 40%. it’s absolutely ridiculous because the other founder isn’t prevented from working alone because you hold 40%. the 2 things aren’t connected. so just agree to sell all your shares in the next raise. then it’s his choice: take on debt now to buy you out (cheap) or pay later (expensive). the latter is likely far, far too expensive so more likely you can only sell half your stake in the next round. EDIT: it has occured to me that you are only 11 months vested. this is a bait and switch. make their lives hell, even after and if you get to keep 10%. he probably can't fire you so you'll just keep vesting. make it very clear you will make it impossible to fundraise unless he buys you out.
• dustingetz 6y ago
  The problem with your ask is that early stage capital is for growing the business, not liquidating founders, and investors are not interested in giving anyone cash to liquidate a founder. Additionally, your valuation is currently underwater and even that is assuming a functional founding team.
  • deleted 6y ago
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  • jiveturkey 6y ago
    It's not OP's ask! Please explain more what you mean about the valuation being underwater. I don't understand how that is, nor how that is even possible.
    • defen 6y ago
      The investment was at a $1 million valuation and the company currently has 40k cash + allegedly, the possibility of 60k/year from ads. Unless there is significant growth potential, the net present value of the company is much less than $1 million.
      • deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      • jiveturkey 6y ago
        ah thanks. yes, all startups operate "underwater" then. that is the operating model. as to the use of venture capital, indeed, no investor will ever allow this -- if they have a say. seed stage funding is most often convertible debt, and the investor does not have a say (legally; but you damn well better do what they say anyway). i'm actually quite surprised that a seed investor would be noncommittal on it. however, 1/ that's the other cofounder's problem, not OPs. the way you phrase it is as if the OP is putting the other cofounder out on a limb with an unreasonable request; that is not the situation here. 2/ the other cofounder doesn't have to use capital, they can take on debt (convertible or straight debt). It's an absolutely wonderful tradeoff if the business will be run better and more efficiently with just the one cofounder. A no-brainer really. Not doing it indicates a scam. In both cases, OP should insist on a buyout. So there's really no difficult decision here -- on OP's part anyway. Of course with the business being "underwater" we are talking about a personal guarantee on straight debt. So again, how much does the other cofounder believe in the business and that his motives are pure? The other cofounder can sidestep this whole thing with various shenanigans, however that doesn't mean OP should just submit. A year of OPs life is worth it to stick to his guns, even if the outcome is inevitable. It's not as if OP has to invest any effort to see through his position.
• yding 6y ago
  Talk to a lawyer.
  • droobles 6y ago
    ^ This
  • justinzollars 6y ago
    ^^^ agree.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
• jashmenn 6y ago
  Sorry to hear you're going through this. I went through something similar and it wasn't fun. As much as you have shareholder agreements etc. none of that matters too much if the business fails and so it's basically about what the two of you can negotiate. In my case, I've paid off a former business partner much like a loan. You can negotiate all sorts of parameters on this: monthly payments, grace period, cash triggers, funding triggers etc. Basically you set a valuation for the business (at least as set by the price of the round of the last investor, if not more because of growth) and then he buys your ownership. Idk what "reverse" vesting is, but if you had normal vesting it sounds like your 49%, after the 1 year cliff, would be worth e.g. 12%. So you can either keep that 12% or if he wants to buy you out he could pay you your 12% vested * last valuation * growth factor. It sounds like it's not going to work for the two of you to work together, so now it's just about negotiating the details before the conflict kills the company
  • fortydegrees 6y ago
    This seems like the most realistic and likely answer. My co-founder hasn't really been budging so far and I feel like they don't fully understand the situation. They think that because it was their idea that they are entitled to a lot more than me. One issue for me is that I don't have that much faith in them being able to execute on the company vision by themself, e.g. they don't want to monetize right now or do a revenue split for reasons I'm unclear about, which makes the practicality of monthly payments tricky.
    • sjg007 6y ago
      Have them pay you with a loan and then start a competitor.
    • rexreed 6y ago
      Take it from me, a negotiated buy-out is the way to go. I had to buy out a former partner and negotiated a payment over 12 months. It worked out for everyone. Current valuation should be valuation at the time of the investment multiplied by a small growth factor (1.5x perhaps). Your stake is the amount you would have owned as of the first cliff (and not any sooner), which is 10% after the investment round. if the company was valued at $1M at investment, then it would be worth maybe $1.5M at time of the 1yr cliff given the growth factor. Your 10% of that is $150,000. The company should pay you $12,500 per month for 12 months to fully buy you out. And the company should time the payments to reduction in your equity. If they speed up payments, it speeds up the buy out. If they slow it down, it slows down the buy out. You should also renegotiate any non-compete.
• weeboid 6y ago
  Seriously? If you are asking these questions, your understanding of the binding contracts belies the casual verbiage in your post. So which one is it?
• DoofusOfDeath 6y ago
  Is it possible to play the long game? I.e., before your partner tanks the business, lay the groundwork for you alone to rebuild it from the ashes. E.g., make sure you have copies of all the source code, and any other intangible assets. After the business tanks and he too is short on cash, buy out all claims he has on those assets, and restart the business? Also consider including your investor in the planning. He/she might be more willing to help you save the business at your partner's expense, if the alternative is losing their entire investment.
• guytv 6y ago
  If you're willing to buy out his share, I would approach the investor, explain the current dead lock, and get his support to force your partner to do a BMBY (Buy Me Buy You), where you offer him a price per his shares, which he either accepts or have to pay the same sum to you and buy your part.
  • sbinthree 6y ago
    Agreed with this. Retain your own counsel and do this.
  • gwbas1c 6y ago
    I think this works if fourtydegrees has some bucks in the bank. Reading between the lines, I suspect fourtydegrees is young and doesn't have the kind of money to do this. (I also suspect that lawyers may be out of fourtydegrees' budget.)
    • fortydegrees 6y ago
      Suppose I did have some bucks in the bank and did get a lawyer - how would they help? So far my co-founder has been pretty unreasonable with regards to compromising and/or negotiaton. The investor so far has also been very neutral and I think will remain so.
      • gwbas1c 6y ago
        Basically: Were you negligent? Assuming you weren't, it's very strange to force someone out right before their equity vests. Basically, your lawyer can understand the situation better than an internet message board can. Then, a phone call from your lawyer to your co-founder could help make your co-founder become a lot more reasonable.
        • folkhack 6y ago
          > it's very strange to force someone out right before their equity vests If the business-minded folk don't fully value the tech solution I can easily see this happening. This "devil's advocate" hypothetical is not an unheard of occurrence.
• rat9988 6y ago
  Do NOT sell. keep 40% of nothing, matter of pride first and for all. Secondly, they are more than likely bluffing. They don't want to put advertising that would generate 5k/mo means they are trying to make things look artificially worse so you leave and keep the rest for themselves. Don't fall for the 40% of nothing once you are close of making money. They just don't want to share the pie.
  • moomin 6y ago
    I’ll just add: write down everything. Guy is trying to run a bait and switch on you and there’s a very good chance this ends up in court. Be ready.
    • Mockapapella 6y ago
      OP make sure you do this, it is incredibly important. I was in a similar situation with a real dick of a co-founder who constantly pulled these bait and switch tactics. I would even go so far as to write down behaviors they exhibit and times where they tried to strong arm you in the past. Keep logs of everything, insist on communicating through means by which you can record the conversation. Writing things down may not stop their behavior, but it will seriously help your case should this turn into a legal fight.
    • bufferoverflow 6y ago
      I'd say audio-record everything if your state allows one-party consent. https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/RECORDING-CONVERSATIONS-CHART.pdf https://www.mwl-law.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/RECORDING...
  • phkahler 6y ago
    If it really were 40 percent of nothing, the other party wouldn't want it so bad ;-)
    • gabereiser 6y ago
      This. 100% this. No sell, no deal, that’s not in the contract...
• s1artibartfast 6y ago
  Can you expand on why they want you out and what happens if you stay?
  • fortydegrees 6y ago
    We've spoken a fair bit and they don't have anything specific to say. It's mainly that they don't like or want the stress of working on a startup, and want to run it more as a lifestyle business.
    • rutthenut 6y ago
      That's tough. I think they will need to realise that the commitment to having seed funding and a co-founder are not the same as a lifestyle business - especially when they do not have funds of their own to fall back on and revenue is not presently hitting the numbers that would be needed. Even a lifestyle business requires more than just 'coding'. That person at least is likely to have an unpleasant awakening. I just hope it doesn't hurt either of you too much
    • mmastrac 6y ago
      If they want to run it as a lifestyle business, that might be some leverage with your investor. Lifestyle businesses are great, but they do not return the same as high-growth venture businesses.
    • jiveturkey 6y ago
      lol! too late for that! he took seed money.
    • cultus 6y ago
      They are trying to kick you out a month before you vest! These guys are not acting in good faith. Do not trust them. Wait a month and vest. Then quit. You were the technical lead. More than anyone, you built it. Don't let these suits steal it from you or bluff you. So often business types take advantage of financially unsophisticated technical people.
• memossy 6y ago
  It's important to see if you are before or after the cliff. If before then depending on your employment agreement and other docs there could be a scenario where you are fired/let go and get 0% shares. Your last round valuation was $1,000,000 post so that price would be $141,000 or so for your 14% stake, can include some triggers on when that occurs that doesn't impede the business (ie $xm raised, $y profits). If not then your ownership of the company is basically 10% on good leaver terms and that is the floor you should accept. To illustrate assuming 100 total shares Now: 40.8: him 39.2: you 10: option 10: seed investor Goes to new cap table of: 40.8 him (57.6% ownership) 10 you (14% ownership) 10 option (14%) 10 seed investor (14%) You're not going to get bought out now although you could say that your stake is purchaseable in the future at the last round valuation, which is very reasonable and keeps the cap table clear, probably $140,000 per the above with some sort of trigger for that (eg $xm raised, $y profits)
  • techsin101 6y ago
    he is a cofounder not an employee
    • tptacek 6y ago
      That may not matter here, depending on how the company is structured. If his partner has the right to sever him from the company, for ex. by dint of his share advantage, and he hasn't cliffed, he'll get 0.
• manuelflara 6y ago
  Just because your co-founder just now feels like "working on it alone" doesn't give him/her the right to force you out, specially if he or she doesn't have any leverage (as you say, the investor is remaining neutral). So what is preventing you from just saying "no, thanks, I'll keep my 40% and keep working on this". What would he/she do, then?
  • tartoran 6y ago
    What keeps the OP from saying they'd rather work alone on it and the other cofounder leave instead, then see what the co-founder want to leave. If they come with some amazing demands, the same demands can be used by the OP to leave.
• mewpmewp2 6y ago
  Why does your co-founder want you to leave?
  • fortydegrees 6y ago
    They're not enjoying working on the company together. It's mainly that they don't like or want the stress of working on a startup, and want to run it more as a lifestyle business.
    • hiimtroymclure 6y ago
      That is so bizarre and seems unbelievable. Feels like there is another reason they arent telling you. If you didnt want the stress, why boot the cofounder? If I didnt want the stress I'd try to maintain some ownership and have you step up more.
    • ajnin 6y ago
      Something smells fishy, if they don't want the stress why would they want to do all the work alone? And there would still be investors bringing some pressure. They also didn't ask you if you agreed to run the business like a "lifestyle business", they directly ask you to leave. That sounds like a made up excuse. You probably can't work together anymore now, but you both seem to think the business can be profitable, so if you decide to leave you should be compensated for what you built. Don't rush the decision. You've worked for 11 months, you can take 2 weeks to talk about it and think things over.
• gwbas1c 6y ago
  I worked with someone for about a year without making any money. We had to part ways without anything to show for it. I can empathize. You didn't say why your co-founder wants to fire you. I suggest digging deeper into those reasons before you haggle on your exit terms. Assuming you weren't negligent: I would try to point out that pushing you out one month before your equity vests is bad faith on your co-founder's side. Offer to leave voluntarily after your one-year cliff. Otherwise, if your co-founder just wants you gone now, request that you keep your 1-year equity and some severance. Furthermore: Sometimes it's cheaper to just close the company and use the "lessons learned" to restart a very similar company... And that very similar company won't owe you anything. [Edit: Deleted some text that, after reading the discussion, isn't relevant.]
• underseacables 6y ago
  Sell nothing. Do you want to leave? It doesn’t seem like you want to leave.
• andrewmcwatters 6y ago
  Stories like this make me wonder if there's a form of pre-business counseling much like premarital counseling where you discuss with your cofounder expectations going into the business and talk about worst-case scenarios like this and how each party would handle it at the time of the counseling (considering people change over time).
  • gwbas1c 6y ago
    I thought that's what involving a lawyer in these kinds of negotiations is supposed to do? That requires having the bucks in the bank to pay for a lawyer. If fourtydegrees is young with a thin wallet, I don't think lawyers were involved.
    • codegeek 6y ago
      Not all lawyers will cost 100k. You can get a good lawyer for 2-3K for basic consultation and if you don't even that type of cash, then it is tough for sure.
      • gwbas1c 6y ago
        > You can get a good lawyer for 2-3K for basic consultation Maybe it's just my style, but that's a lot for me to shell out on "day one" of working with someone. I prefer to trust the people I work with. But, in a situation like this I'd happily spend that kind of money to get something straightened out.
• nashashmi 6y ago
  Not experienced in this by any means at all, but I still am interested in what are the legal, social, and professional responsibilities here. Legally, you are entitled even though the market is no longer the same as which you were brought to help in. Professionally you have put in lots of un-tallied TLC. Socially, there seems to be no effort for an amicable resolution. On the business side it doesn’t make much sense for you to continue with the company if this is not your area of expertise. So you should taper off the position of founder and become a silent investor. Do not budge on percentage. It is your right. If the other person does not accept this, then the option is to dissolve the company. Keep all assets as is. And license to new entity for royalty or one time debt. If you want to continue with the company, negotiate a position that is optimized for what you can do. And remain shareholder. And board member. Either way, assess the true value of the company in terms of current potential revenue, future growth, and future risks. Use that as as premise for negotiation. And set aside a BATNA. A best alternative to negotiated agreement. Don’t focus on the torch and burn scenario even if the other person insists is a possible outcome. (All this comes from someone who doesn’t know a single thing about this other than how businesses merge, split, and dissolve.)
  • jiveturkey 6y ago
    > Legally, you are entitled He's not. He's 11 months into a 12 month cliff.
• mmastrac 6y ago
  First of all, in a case like there where you have founders at odds so early on, your company is basically on life support and probably dead already. You have very little to lose by digging in and waiting for your co-founder to fold. If your co-founder has done this at this point of the business where the stakes are so low, they will absolutely try to screw you out of the 3% through other nefarious means. It sucks that a single founder can tank a promising startup, but that's how it goes (unless you've already got a shotgun clause or equivalent in your shareholder agreements).
• dcolkitt 6y ago
  I would propose structuring the buyout in the form of convertible debt instead of a cash buyout. You give up your equity today, but the LLC gives your a convertible note to cover your valuation conditional on some future funding event. Set a specific valuation target, at which point the note will pay in cash equivalent to a certain percent of the company's equity. That defers the issue of liquidity until if/when the company gets sufficient funding. But it gets you out of the equity today, particularly with regards to voting shares. Which is probably what your co-founder cares about the most.
  • fortydegrees 6y ago
    This makes a lot of sense. An issue I have with this is that one reason my co-founder wants to split is that they don't really want the pressure of running a startup, and so are unlikely to go on to raise additional money. Could a situation where I get a cash payout, say $20k from the company to sell a certain %, and then the convertible debt to sell more in the future work?
    • dcolkitt 6y ago
      If the co-founder doesn't think there will be a need for any new funding, then that would imply that he expects the company to be cash-flow positive in the near-term. I'd sit down and work out what are the cash flow forecasts and milestones. Contextualize what's a reasonable rate of return for implicitly funding the company by foregoing an immediate cash buyout. If/when the company achieves certain profitability milestones, then the note will pay back in installments. Each successful milestone draws down the principal, each missed milestone increases the principal. If profitability isn't sustainably achieved, the note converts back into common equity. If/when there's a major funding event, the note converts to common equity or cash equivalent of the common equity valuation. Essentially you're planning for three scenarios. 1) The business becomes profitable without further funding. You're paid off over time from the profits. 2) The business goes the fundraising route. You're paid off at the liquidity event. 3) The business succeeds at neither route. Your share of the equity reverts back to you, so you receive your fair share of the scraps.
    • bravura 6y ago
• jmkd 6y ago
  Could you privately find a potential buyer for your 40%? Then tease that info and magically they may prefer to buy you out and suddenly find a way to do so...
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• taylortrusty 6y ago
  Your co-founder likely has no ability to just kick you out. What do the documents you signed say? Is there an operating agreement? Who brought in the investor? Who has that relationship? If you're friendly with them, you could ask for advice or feedback. Do you have business mentors near you who can help you navigate this?
• barefeg 6y ago
  Why does your partner not want to continue working with you? Are your views on how to continue opposite? I understand how you see this as unfair but it also doesn’t make sense if he/she builds the product alone and owe you 40% for 12 months of work
• basseq 6y ago
  Since you have a 1-year cliff and have only been there 11 months, sounds like as of today you have 0% equity. So the immediate question may be whether your co-founder can fire you. In 1 month, you've vested 25% of your grant, or 10% of the company. So I would try to get to that mark to strengthen your negotiating position. Any references to 40% are red herrings at this point. Unless there's a specific buyback clause in your stakeholder agreement, they're under no obligation to buy you out at any time. (They may have the right to do so. That's not uncommon.) Of course, you're under no obligation to resign, either. So this is a negotiation. So the way I see it, you have a few options: 1. You take your 10% and leave. You "don't want any equity", but better something you don't want than nothing. 2. You agree to a buyback, potentially at a discount to FMV. If you don't know what FMV is, it's hard to negotiate one way or another. It's v. likely not $1M. Sounds like this is a no-go. 2B. You agree to a non-cash buyback, e.g., in IP. You spent 11 months building the tech: what if you took that with you? 3. You flip the script and buy your co-founder out. In any case, your relationship is over. You might walk away with nothing.
  • clarkevans 6y ago
    10% might be a good target from another perspective -- the investor put in 100k to get to 10% -- is that about how much "sweat-equity" that the OP has put in? Alternatively, just pretend the vesting was happening monthly.. how much is that 9.16%? The surviving founder does need enough incentive to continue. The OP should make sure it is hard equity of the same class as the investor's shares, where there are tax liability distributions and other preferences. If the OP is before the vesting cliff and your co-founder is fixated 4%, then perhaps think about the balance as unpaid sweat equity, disbursed as deferred compensation at a reasonable interest rate, as a percentage of revenue, to be paid off before co-founder raises their owner draw? Critically, the OP should assume best intents and look for win-win situations. Finally, seek competent legal advice!
    • tptacek 6y ago
      I think people should be careful with the "seek legal advice" thing. Obviously, you need to talk to a lawyer. But: (a) You need a lawyer who deals with this kind of stuff regularly and has a realistic and well-informed view of what the outcomes are going to be. Most lawyers aren't like this. (b) Legal gets expensive very fast, especially as it transitions from advice to negotiation and document review. At this scale of opportunity (the way the company is described), I'd stick to get getting advice! (c) Past the "can I be fired" question, which I agree is urgent (and probably predictable), a lot of the negotiation here isn't going to be about the law so much as it's going to be about what both sides are willing to accept. If you have friends who have been in founder disputes like this, their input is going to be just as valuable as the lawyer's.
• ockco3je 6y ago
  Hold out. Keep working and keep proof you are working and do what is required to keep your stake. Don't give them anything that could be used to justify firing you or the upper hand in any legal battle. Keep any evidence of them violating the contract. Try to get the upper hand in any negotiations. You'll get a better deal at the very least
  • ockco3je 6y ago
    Sorry you had this happen to you. I had something similar just when the startup looked like it was going to take off the other co-founders tried to shake me down for my shares, threaded me with complete theft of my shares if I didn't accept some insulting, contract breaking amount. The company went on to do unsuccessful ICO scam and things worked out well for me getting out
• LarvaFX 6y ago
  "Work on it yourself; I'm keeping my equity".
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
• friedman23 6y ago
  You own 40% of the company, tell him to sod off it's as much yours as it is his
• lmeyerov 6y ago
  Bad news: If the CEO wants you out, by default, you should leave. It won't work to stay wrt high-pressure collaboration & trust, and is a warning sign against continued growth. Worse, they are likely about to fire you over the equity + performance, and unless you have single-trigger, you get 0 equity. Even if you keep equity after you leave, 40% equity is too much 'dead weight' for professional investors to not pressure them to wipe you out after you leave. Question is how replaceable are you. (Sadly, most people are.) If the plan is a funding round, they'll need you or a new technical cofounder (they may be replacing you anyway?), they'll need equity to represent that. good news there is they want someone proven or harder to raise. The founder may also be wanting to keep > 50% after funding dilution. I'd stretch it out 1mo till you got your cliff, so you get your 5% or whatever vested locked in. Then I'd try to figure out why the reln is broken, and if you truly want to stay / can fix it. Negotiation wise, I'd assume you are leaving, and maybe they are playing hardball. Asking for a buyout doesn't work as they are cash poor, and keeping too much equity doesnt bc they can just fire you. they may also decide to wipe you out after you leave by issuing more stock to remove dead weight on cap table. Maybe: Offer to stay on until you help get a good replacement at 90% efficacy, and keep vesting at high rate, then leave. Say you are good for partial buyouts during the next rounds. if you have single trigger, you have way more leverage. if a success 10yrs / 1000 employees / $1B from now and you leave now, you'd have contributed little of the ultimate work, and your equity & departure more of a hindrance during fundraising, so leave it w even 5-10% now is fairish. edit: I would discuss w a startup lawyer. if you break the reln now w money still in trust of the untrustworthy ceo, like equity to sell at next rounds, you may want extra protections on it, like conversion dates to something more liquid.
  • lmeyerov 6y ago
    People are downvoting this, and I'm guessing because they interpret it as saying it's fine that the technical co-founder is being forced down + out like this, or that they don't "deserve" their shot at vesting that 40%. Not my intent - it's immoral, and probably, illegal. Pulling this 1mo before the cliff is especially evil. The difficulty is the CEO has a lot of flexibility in equivalent legal actions like firing the co-founder, issuing 10X more shares, and diluting the 40% to 4%. Even if the technical co-founder does successfully walk away with 40% today and things go well, investors in funding rounds years from now will still pressure them to do so ("why is 40% of the company shares dead weight? That should go to new employees!"). The situation stinks, as does the negotiation position.
• rutthenut 6y ago
  Definitely do not sell / give away that shareholding. It may well become 40$ of nothing, but it could also become 3% of nothing or almost-nothing, and the co-founder will have been paying himself a return when the company gets revenue. I suspect there may be other personal/personality issues here and he may well like the idea of hacking alone on this, now that it appears to be viable. However, he has an agreement with you, and you made commitment, put in effort too. That's why you have a shareholding. Do not just give that up, unless he makes it worth your while 'now'.
• f6v 6y ago
  Don't give anything away, worth case - you've lost 11 month. People have been working for nothing longer than that.
• CodeWriter23 6y ago
  Have you read your partnership agreement? Are there duties assigned to each partner? If so, let him play his “40% of nothing card” right into breach of contract then sue for ownership of his shares and then hire someone to do what he refused to do. But probably, speak to a lawyer. You do need to respond to this offer in writing, even if rejecting it.
• meddlin 6y ago
  I'm just a country-bumkin managing to build and secure software, but uh...someone wants to push me around without having the money to do so? Let 'em, my kind are stubborn anyway. Then again, maybe I just enjoy fire a bit much.
• nolite 6y ago
  Keep 40% of nothing, and tell him to fuck off for trying to strong arm you
• MoJoPokeyBlue 6y ago
  It's too late for this idea in this situation, but it might be of interest to others thinking about getting into a partnership. Because most partnerships eventually go south, there is something known as the "Shotgun Clause". (I don't know who named it this, but this is what I've always known it as.) If your partner wants you out and comes to you with a lowball offer, you can invoke the Shotgun Clause, which gives you the right to buy him/her out at exactly the same terms, and THEY HAVE to accept. It's the risk they take by making an offer. It's designed to get them to make a "fair" offer, or one that they would accept.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
• jsonGobbler 6y ago
  Do not sell. He’s trying to push you out since it’s primed to blow up. If it becomes 40%of nothing let me know and I’ll build it with you. I’m a full stack entrepreneur who can sell and build. The only real threat that I’ve seen brought up is if he can fire you.
• jsonGobbler 6y ago
  It sounds like he’s trying to push you out before it blows up. Don’t sell. If you end up with 40% of nothing hit me up. I’m a full stack entrepreneur who can build and sell.
• Foober223 6y ago
  Your co-founder wants to profit from 11 months of your life and leave you in the gutter. 11 months is about 2% of your entire adult working life. Don't give in to anything. The guy is a crook. He should have proposed the paltry 3% before you dedicated 11 months of your life on the business. At the very least he should offer to pay you a market salary for the 11 months you worked. He could take out a loan to pay you.
• anm89 6y ago
  If you are at your cliff you might want to buy time saying you will take a bad deal but need to run it past lawyers or whatever to make it past the cliff. Then you can have a change of heart after they can't take it by force. Also this goes to show why you should not take a cliff if you see yourself as a founder.
• dwt204 6y ago
  They are bluffing. Keep negotiating until you get what you want.
• tmakks 6y ago
  Get a lawyer or at least someone who deals (talks) with them, asap, you are in a war. Important question: If they gave notice today would the notice period "help" with staying longer than 1 year and hence, not falling into the 1 year cliff? All further advice depends on above question, so once we know the answer we can give proper advice.
  • mooreds 6y ago
    Can't emphasize this enough. This is a year of your life. Find someone with a fiduciary duty to you who has seen this before.
    • jpm_sd 6y ago
      A year isn't such a long time, in the grand scheme of things. This company sounds pretty doomed, regardless of the outcome of this conflict. Take lessons learned, cut and run.
      • mooreds 6y ago
        I think the OP should investigate how much time and effort it will take them to get the first vest (or an equivalent agreement). Then they can make an informed choice. I agree that the partnership is wrecked and that he should walk away after determining if they can get the 10% ownership (heck, maybe the right number is 3% or 7% or something else, only the OP knows what feels least wrong). But it's not clear to me that the company is doomed (from the little we know). In fact, it sounds like it might do great.
• boulos 6y ago
  Everything is a negotiation. But you’ll probably need an employer to push for that. Firing you just before your cliff is obviously not a particularly defensible action. More importantly, your last statement (“I don't really want any equity in the company at this point if I'm not involved.”) suggests you don’t want the most obvious settlement: you retain your equity plus some acceleration (since you aren’t leaving on your own terms, it’s standard to request more than your currently “vested” amount). You can’t likely “force” them to pay you for those shares above the price you paid, unless you have another buyer willing to do so. Like others here, I’d suggest you involve your investors and almost certainly a lawyer (assuming you think that would even be worth it). I can’t tell if you want to take over the company (you buy them out), you want them to buy you out, or you want to walk away. Do you have a clear preference?
• wakeywakeywakey 6y ago
  What do your corporate agreement and bylaws say? They may be in violation of your stated roles/responsibilities, or in breach of fiduciary duty. Get a lawyer right away. Keep records of everything.
• rubyist5eva 6y ago
  Tell them to shove it. Something tells me your 40% is worth a hell of a lot more, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to screw you out of it. Lawyer up.
  • meeech 6y ago
    they could just be deluded.
  • colinmhayes 6y ago
    It sounds like op currently has 0%, so I'm not sure this is a winning strategy.
• cultus 6y ago
  This is a bait and switch. Talk to a lawyer. Wow, just absolutely scummy.
• pbiggar 6y ago
  This is a delicate and nuanced matter that's hard to know the right answer without all the details. I've gone through this 4 times, and also recently talked to 20 people who went through it, specifically about this topic. Feel free to email me and we can have a call and talk you through the options (paul.biggar@gmail.com) First thought: You don't have 40%, you have at most (11 months / 48 months vesting) * 40% = 9%. But, at 11 months you haven't hit your cliff, so you actually have 0%. That is, if they can fire you. It sounds like they're the CEO so they probably can, but if not the board can.
• tyingq 6y ago
  I'd say first things first. You have 11 months and a one year cliff. Find a way to stall for a month and your position gets much stronger. This is a great environment to find a way to stall. Tell your co-founder to write up a proposal so that you can have a lawyer look at it. That's easy to turn into a month of stalling.
  • momokoko 6y ago
    The reason this is happening right now is because the other founder is well aware of that cliff and losing 10% going forward.
    • tyingq 6y ago
      Sure. This is essentially calling that bluff in a reasonable way.
  • cwkoss 6y ago
    As a new startup, I'd assume that the technical co-founder is doing a lot of maintenance and automation to keep everything running smoothly. Why not let something break, and then they'd have a stronger negotiation position? I can't imagine (but would be very impressed with tech co-founder) if a year old system could run without any maintenance for a month. Seems also unlikely that tech co-founder could be replaced fast enough to continue reliable service seamlessly. I don't think non-tech co-founder realizes that if tech disappears, it will kill the baby.
    • seppin 6y ago
      > Why not let something break These responses, my word.
    • pc86 6y ago
      > Why not let something break Because this is the professional equivalent of shitting in your hand and throwing it at the wall? The fact that an adult would suggest abdicating any professionalism and just letting a site with 60k users and investment backing start to break to prove a point is astounding.
• 23david 6y ago
  Are you the CEO? And does your vesting agreement have any provision for accelerated vesting if your employment is terminated without cause?
• tptacek 6y ago
  Lots of really bad advice on this thread. Something to keep in mind is that people venting about how unfair this is and how you shouldn't give an inch as a matter of principle are writing that to gratify their own emotions more than they are honestly trying to help you in this situation. You need to talk to a lawyer, strictly to figure out, given the structure of the company, what your partner has the authority to do. It sounds like they have an edge in ownership and are likely set up as the firm's CEO, in which case it's very likely that they can sever you from the company. You can probably get a cost-effective answer to that question, especially if you're willing to accept the most straightforward answer (ie, if you're just using the lawyer as a sanity check, and not tasking them with pursuing weird theories of why you'd be impossible to fire). You probably cannot get cost-effective answers to the rest of your questions from a lawyer; be prepared to sink 5 figures into legal, speculatively, to pursue anything past that. On the firing, figure high hundreds of dollars. On the equity negotiation, figure $10,000. At 11 months in to a 12 month cliff, you are going to get 0 if you're terminated. Maybe you can slow roll past the cliff? Even if the paperwork is locked down on their side, your partner is likely going to offer you that 3% just to avoid the drama; your argument may be doomed legally, but you can easily inflict 5 figures of legal expense on them. So there's a negotiation here. It may be that as soon as you start to sound reasonable --- not asking to assume control of the company yourself, not expecting to walk away with all your shares vested --- they quickly become amenable to improvements in the deal, just to get this over with. While you think this through, remember that it is also very early in the life of this company to have a departed founder with a huge equity stake. A lot of reasonable people in that situation would just wind down the company and restart it; why plow forward while encumbered the way they are now? You're (justifiably) thinking about the 11 months you just spent, but if the company has legs, those 11 months are not much compared to the person/years that are going to be invested down the road. Nobody is going to raise money to liquidate your position in the company. Nobody is going to court. Lawsuits that actually get litigated take years and cost more money than anybody in this story have. It also doesn't seem realistic to expect investors at this stage of the company to buy out your partner. How would that even work? You'd end up working for the investor. Probably nobody wants that outcome, including the investor, but also: with the low revenue you're talking about, your investors are unlikely to waste their time. I've been a party to some similar situations and my advice is just to keep things simple. A good mental model of the legal services you have available here is a complicated divorce: only the lawyers win, and they know it. Your time is worth a lot, and dragging this out will eat a lot of your productive time. You suggest downthread that you're not all that interested in the equity and think your partner is going to fly the company into terrain. I think you answered your own question with that. You can fight a little bit, especially if it makes you feel better, but it sounds like you'd be kind of crazy to fight a lot.
• tus88 6y ago
  > What are my options here? Maybe you should be asking, what are their options? They can't force you to give away something you own.
• hedgehog 6y ago
  Find two people to advise you, an attorney and someone with founder or angel experience. Gather up copies of all employment agreements etc + directly related correspondence for them to review. Don't sign anything, don't discuss this issue more with your cofounder until you get advice. Also don't read too much into anonymous internet commenters who don't know the details of your situation. You can be fired but you have some leverage because this kind of dispute is a red flag for any prospective investor. Feel free to e-mail me.
• kevinstubbs 6y ago
  @fortydegrees, if you would make $5k/mo with Adsense, then you can make $10-40k/mo if you worked with my company instead. I'm not sure if that helps your leverage with equity negotiations or raising external money, but it will definitely help your bank accounts. My link's in profile.
• davmar 6y ago
  I've been in tough founder situations. What I'd like to add to this conversation is: leaving is the right choice, find a way out, don't stay.
• gogopuppygogo 6y ago
  Sounds like you are in a good position. This is not legal advice so go seek your own licensed legal counsel. If they don’t pay you the equity then they would not own your tech. Any revenue/profit they derive would be unjust enrichment. Not to say that I’d even leave them with working tech. I’d disable everything I built today until we had a more equitable agreement. No chance I’d let them profit from this tech alone anymore. At best I’d offer them a license to use it. Then go start your own company with it and be the majority owner. No need for the bad business partner.
• momokoko 6y ago
  I don’t know if you can still delete this, but this is way too specific and way too many people read HN for your co-founder to not see this. I would email dang at hn@ycombinator.com to see if they can at least delete the body of this post. Please seek legal advice and the personal advice of contact you can trust that has angel investment experience if you have one.
  • vmception 6y ago
    that's the point lol puts a variety of other perspectives in public worry about yourself
  • Ecstatify 6y ago
    What difference would it make if the co-founder seen it? Maybe they would see sense...
• mooreds 6y ago
  What does your founder agreement state? When I founded a startup we discussed how an exit would happen (for either party) and documented it. That's the controlling factor here, and of course HN has no insight into those docs. Depending on what legal jurisdiction you are in, you might have some other rights/obligations. Either way, please consult a lawyer who has helped clients through this kind of situation before. Preferably a local one. After doing so, you may want to reach out to the investor and make sure that your co-founder isn't controlling the narrative with them. Again, the lawyer probably has some advice on this approach.
• jedberg 6y ago
  It sounds like you and the investor together control more than 1/2 the shares. Is the investor a friend of your cofounder or more neutral? If they're a neutral party, it might make sense to get them involved, or at least threaten to get them involved. You and your investor could potentially vote out your other cofounder, and knowing that might make your cofounder change their tune. On the flip side, if the investor is a friend of your cofounder, be aware that they have a lot of leverage here and could vote you out.
  • krrrh 6y ago
    There’s a good chance that the seed investment was made via a SAFE, which means the investor doesn’t yet own shares, just convertible debt.
• Dumblydorr 6y ago
  Negotiate up to 6%, get feedback, stay polite, then on to the next venture. If they're acting this way, I don't think the co-founder is worth the massive risk you'd be wasting another few months.
• kesor 6y ago
  You can keep holding the stock and every couple of months demand a dividend payout from the company revenue.
• deleted 6y ago
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• deleted 6y ago
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• gkoberger 6y ago
  Can I give you some advice that really sucks? Walk away. It's not fair, but starting a company isn't like getting a job. It's a relationship and a risk that doesn't always work out. Sometimes you find more money and success than you could ever dream of, and other times you waste 11 months. Here's my thought process. You and your cofounder aren't going to be able to work together after this. The company has no money and no value, so you're trying to get your portion of something that doesn't exist. Them raising money to pay you just kills their chance at ever being successful... plus, who would give a company money just to pay someone out? Same goes for accelerating vesting on the 40%... there's no way they can build a company when someone not involved owns a huge stake. You could spend time and money trying to right this injustice. And yeah, it is an injustice. But the worst thing you can do is tie your identity to this. There's not much upside to fighting it; all you'll do is spend more time, money and energy you could be using to start something new. I've had this happen to me before, so I completely understand what it's like. You feel helpless and shitty and like you wasted a ton of time. Rather, do your best to put it behind you, and focus on what benefits you got out of it. Did you learn about a new space that will make you extra valuable to another company? Even just having a founder mentality will raise your value to a startup. Did you learn things you would do differently? You can start another company, and do it better this time. I know it sucks. But I'm 99% confident you won't get anything out of this, so it's best to just walk away. It's cheesy, but "success is the best revenge." Your relationship with this company failed, but you haven't. Don't tie your personal journey to this one company. Good luck, and my emails in my profile if you want to talk! (Also, a few years ago I wrote about going through it: https://medium.com/@gkoberger/five-years-time-6a6ae1157a66 https://medium.com/@gkoberger/five-years-time-6a6ae1157a66)
  • yudlejoza 6y ago
    I'm sorry but this is a ridiculous advice.
    • tptacek 6y ago
      It's the plot of a movie that nobody on this thread wants to watch, but that doesn't make it bad advice.
• andrewstuart 6y ago
  Why should you say anything except "no"? You own that equity even if you are not employed there. Hang onto it ..... there's no reason you should be bullied out of it. I've seen this situation come up a number of times. It's just bullying.... there's no legal reason for you to give up your stake. Go watch "The Social Network" movie.
• hvaoc 6y ago
  You got nothing to lose all on your own (except time wasting with this person), but if that's worst enough. You have two options 1. 40 % of Nothing, other part gets the same deal. 2. You get 40 % of whatever this business is worth for. The other party gets the same. You lose together or gain together. That's a fair game in a Startup as founders. Don't accept anything else, if you do they just managed to bulldoze you out of your equity. Stand for fair deal. Don't get bullied by these negative tactics. Remember "Two broccoli or Four broccoli" from your mother. - Call the bluff and fake dichotomy of choices. I would say - No Broccoli. Meantime, keep everything documented and be professional - do not let them have any choice to get you out.
  • Kim_Bruning 6y ago
    I was curious, so I tried googling for "Two broccoli or Four broccoli" because I actually hadn't heard of it before. I didn't get any hits. Now I'm really curious! Can you explain?
• samfisher83 6y ago
  Everyone here is saying hire a lawyer. If OP actually has to go into litigation, It seems the cost of a good lawyer > value of the company.
  • protomyth 6y ago
    Lawyers are very useful before and often prevent litigation.
  • qbert 6y ago
    You can often do an initial consultation with a lawyer for free. They can let you know what general options you have if any and then if you need them to execute on any of the options you pay them. They can give you an idea of the costs up front. I've done this before in regards to a startup project I was working on with 2 others and the information was very useful and totally free.
• d33lio 6y ago
  Walk away or get a lawyer.
• stockholm 6y ago
  Maybe start a competing business with the same idea and take 100% of the equity.
• burpee 6y ago
  Negotiate for converting your equity into debt that needs to be paid off at certain events. Easiest way to get the most money out of him. Lawyers can help you set that up in a contract, you just have to negotiate on the value of the debt.
• danielrhodes 6y ago
  Equity is property. The company must pay you to buy back the shares you have vested.
• docflabby 6y ago
  Alternative view, ask if they will consider a unrestricted licence to the IP in lieu of payment rather than any ownership.
• icedchai 6y ago
  Have you been paid anything for your work?
• bredren 6y ago
  Just propose something you can largely feel comfortable with, but also gives the other founder strong incentive to continue, and won’t hurt future raises. If necessary add hooks into revenue and a framework for a future buy out. But def don’t waste time around someone who doesn’t want to work with you.
• jxm262 6y ago
  This is pretty interesting to read through. I'm aware of a thing called "ERISA" , where (I think) there's law forbidding termination before vesting (retirement funds though). Are there any similar legal protections in place to prevent termination based _solely_ on equity vesting? And to all the comments here saying to just walk away and keep your peace; ie - just take it as a learning lesson. Which learning lesson is that exactly? Sounds to me like this is a pretty typical situation we engineers can get ourselves into. What other protections (learning lessons) could they have done to mitigate what's happening here?
  • tptacek 6y ago
    Don't work for randos.
• jimboyoungblood 6y ago
  Walk away and start a new company that does the same thing.
• gojomo 6y ago
  Find a lawyer/negotiator with experience in this area you can talk to directly, high-bandwidth. They'll echo many of the themes here, but be able to get (& give) more depth/detail. This is a negotiation that's already started. Any communication about what they are or aren't interested in is a negotiating stance, or opening offer, which may be very far from what's possible if you properly understand your position/needs. Too bad there wasn't a 'shotgun clause' from the beginning. (Then, even if you didn't have cash-on-hand, you could seek other financing/investment to win a fair/orderly divorce process. There are many investors who specialize in SaaS businesses.) Still, insisting on a bilateral agreement that whoever is able to pay more gets to buy the other out might be a reasonable negotiating goal for you, depending on other factors. Your vesting cliff is very important. After the 1 year, there's zero justification for not delivering a full quarter of your shares (~10% of total equity). So I'd see retaining 10% equity (or at the very least 11/12th prorated if you do them the favor of leaving ASAP) as the absolute baseline you should consider. It's unclear if your use of 'they is for gender-neutrality or indicates your co-founder & investor share this desire to get you out. But if the investor is neutral, or swayable, or cares about their reputation for treating technical cofounders, they may be all-important to a fair & amicable resolution. That the co-founder would try this indicates some combination of real difficulties in the working relationship, differences in your perceived values of each other going forward, and/or a willingness to play hardball in grabbing more of a success in contravention of earlier agreements. To the extent it's that last factor, there are other ways you can still be edged-out, via dilution/re-orgs/etc, later on even if you resolved the current negotiation amicably. That's not a reason to run or give up, but something to keep in mind: a seemingly attractive result that's not ironclad could be further reneged. So you might give a little more, with the right protections, so that the result is more aligned/sustainable/enforceable in the future. Good luck!
  • gojomo 6y ago
    Also: if company has 'standard' vesting documents & has taken outside funding, is the lawyer who set those up still a trusted neutral resource for both founders? Even in their role as "company's lawyer", they could talk to you both about how the existing agreements affect the resignation, firing, or mutually-agreed exit of a founder, and discuss ideas that help the company survive & thrive past that event. Though, to actually negotiate (& legally execute) a durable exit agreement, you'd likely want a separate lawyer on your side. (And, given the values implied by the outside investor's price-paid, & your estimation of future revenues, spending a few $thousand here could save $tens-of-thousands or more later.)
• mtnGoat 6y ago
  some advice i got years ago that has proven its value time and time again... when dealing with ____heads, you gotta be a ____head too. if your co-founder wants to take something from you without compensation, do not go lightly. for no other reason, IMO, than to teach the other party a lesson. if he does this to you it will embolden him to do it to others. greedy people need to be stopped in their tracks.
• staticman2 6y ago
  Almost all the advise here is bad. Without legal review of what you signed how can anyone know what your negotiating position is?
  • TameAntelope 6y ago
    "Lawyer up" feels like the best direct advice we could give. The other comments are good information to have, but OP's co-founder is clearly executing a comprehensive strategy, and OP doesn't seem knowledgable enough to avoid falling for it on their own. Hire an expert to help you navigate this, or you'll probably regret it.
• epa 6y ago
  If they dont have cash, tell him to issue you a convertible promisory note for $X amount that you think is fair. If the Company does well then they can pay you out or you can convert your stock into shares for cheap. If the company goes under, then you all lose. Lawyers can draft these for cheap, just make sure you put a timeline in there and make it one sided so you can convert at any time with anti-dilution provisions.
• newbie578 6y ago
  Definitely first talk to a lawyer, and take each comment in this thread (including mine :)) with a grain of salt. A lot of us have zero idea about your situation and we are speaking from the gut. That said, fuck that cofounder, I would rather burn it to the ground than let him get his way and regret it for the rest of my life.
• richardlblair 6y ago
  For readers - This is a lesson in having an actual shareholder agreement. Incorporating isn't enough, outline how situations like this go down before hand. Get a lawyer, pay the fee, you will be thankful later.
• g42gregory 6y ago
  My advice: wait 1 month and then leave with 10%. As people mentioned, you don’t want to stay because the relationship is broken. It’s not worth your time. In terms of getting fired before 1 month is over, get an employment lawyer and talk this over with him. Most likely, you will have a case if they fire you just to save 7%. Get the lawyer first, before responding to your cofounder. If you think this business is going places, that will change my advice. In this case, get a lawyer and negotiate a higher % or assurance that you will stay at the company and continue to get vested. Maybe you will get more than 10%? Remember, investors/executive team will dilute you by issuing extra shares to the people who stay.
• codethief 6y ago
  > We were 51/49% to them and took a small round of pre-seed funding (~$100k) so our cap table is approx 40% for me and co-founder, 10% option pool and 10% investor. We have very standard shareholder agreements for 4yr reverse vesting with 1yr cliff. Could anyone tell me what this means in plain English (preferably, ELI5)? I have no idea what term sheets look like in detail but I would really like to learn.
  • joeblau 6y ago
    It's a breakdown of the ownership of the company Op - 40% Co-Founder - 40% Option Pool - 10% Angel Investor - 10% - The option pool for new hires means that if you're one of the first employees, your equity will come from that option pool. You may get 1% as an early engineer or 3% as an early executive for example. - The investor owning 10% of the company means that they think the company is worth $1,000,000 right now. ($100,000 x 10) - The 4yr vesting with 1 year cliff means the Op gets 1/48th ownership of the company every month over the course of 4 years. BUT BUT BUT they only get the first 1/4 (12/48th) until they have been at the company for at least 1 year. If the Op leave before 1 year, they get nothing.
  • exacube 6y ago
    IIUC: OP is set to own roughly 40% in 4yrs -- 10% at the end of the 1st year (i.e the "cliff"), and the rest of the 30% across the remaining 3 years (probably more often than once a year). the "reverse vesting" means that everytime OP vests, OP's cofounder has the right to buy off the newly vested shares. this means that OP would get money but lose ownership if their cofounder chose to bought off the shares. OP has been working 11 months so far and is approaching the 1 year cliff (so set to own 10%), so now their cofounder wants OP to leave the company and take only 3% ownership, and is threatening to leave and abandon the company risking any value at all. Presumably, cofounder also has the right to fire OP though OP hasn't stated anything about this.
  • teabee89 6y ago
    The company's ownership is divided in shares, also called equity. A cap(italization) table details the distribution of equity. In this example, 40.8% (= 51% * 80%) for founder 1, 39.2% (= 49% * 80%) for founder 2 (assuming it's OP), 10% for investor and 10% for something called options that may be granted in the future to new employees that allows them to buy shares of the company at a low price. 4-year reverse vesting with 1-year cliff means that if one of the founders leaves before 1 year of signing the contract, they are forced to sell at no profit (still, not $0) the entirety of their shares to the other shareholders. After 1 year of staying at the company, they may keep 1/4 of their shares and are forced to sell only the rest. Following that 1 year mark, they earn the right every month at the company to keep ~0.833% (= 40% / 48 as there are 48 months in 4 years) of their shares and forced to sell the rest. At the 4 year mark of staying, they are no longer forced to sell any of the initial set of shares. It does not apply to any future grants for which new conditions or new schedules may apply.
• viztor 6y ago
  Growth from 2k to 60k is an important tipping point. There should be a buyout at this point. Valuation based on income result in 5k * 12 * 15 * 40% = 360k, which should be a fair price. valuation based on funding would be around 400k, which would be similar. You can have that written down as a contract, not necessarily direct cash payment, but cash payable, and have your co-founder to sign as guarantor, which would not be a bad price for him, and not a bad price for you too. Deduct the 3% if you want.
  • dxhdr 6y ago
    PE of 15 is unrealistic; 2 to 3 for an unproven business at that scale is what you would likely receive when pursuing a sale.
• godmode2019 6y ago
  Visit a lawyer, this is the point in legal agreements. There is a thing called court that, no one wants to go to courts its time consuming and expensive. Also talk to the investor, I'm sure they would rather not see their 100k be worth nothing because of a founder breakup. Don't take any bad offers, you don't have to sell. On the other hand if you are the one that is worth firing and you know this, do the honourable thing.
• tootie 6y ago
  Ask for a fair buyout in the form of an IOU. They can pay it when they have more cash or default when they fold. You've locked them in to sticking with the work that you have done by dint of the SEO juice. If they want to reap the benefits of that, they have to compensate you commensurate to what was agreed.
  • evanwolf 6y ago
    Debts are usually paid before equity in bankruptcy, maybe even in an acquisition. but, seriously, get a lawyer.
• monkin 6y ago
  I will say something immoral to many: Leave him, walk out, and build a business in the same niche with contacts and know-how you already have. There’s one advantage of this: You can start from scratch, build it faster, and better without starting with a baggage. And, have fun doing it. I’ve done this, and couldn’t be happier. Business I left is nonexistent anymore.
  • ockco3je 6y ago
    Very unlikely to work. His contract will have a non-compete and as a founder probably enforceable
• MartianSquirrel 6y ago
  Genuine question: Have you considered buying out your co-founder instead? You seem to have a general undestanding of the figures you can make through advertisement. I'd suggest doing more research on that, maybe meeting with a consulting/advisor CFO who could help you make a case for it. Then you could go for a loan to buy your co-founder out, or meet with the investors to have him removed/replaced with someone who's gonna put the business first.
• nullc 6y ago
  A stable 5k/month cashflow is worth maybe 1.5 million dollars flat. Ignoring the phenomenally unethical effort to part ways with you one month before the cliff, you rightfully own about 9.16% of that-- or on the order of 137k. You could argue that up and down based on risk and operating cost vs the potential to increase it, but I think that would be a fair starting place for the present realized value that I'd hope to negotiate from. Have you talked with your investor? They may be more sensitive to the consequences of their reputation being damaged due to ripping you off than your cofounder is...
• fallingfrog 6y ago
  Call his bluff. He’s trying to cheat you.
• kfrncs 6y ago
  Sounds like you need legal advice from an experienced business lawyer.
• andjd 6y ago
  Hey. As a former lawyer, I'm going to echo the many comments in this thread to consult a lawyer. If you find a good one with relevant experience, it should only take a few hours at most to properly understand the exact situation you are in and know your options. Your rights could vary drastically based on the specifics of the company and the employment/equity agreements you entered into, in addition to where you and the other founder are, and where the business was incorporated or registered. If there aren't formal agreements to this, but you have emails or other documentation that's short of a formal contract, that can also be relevant. Regardless, the co-founder and the investor owe you, an equity holder, a fiduciary duty. The threat to tank the business if you don't surrender most of your equity is a pretty cut-and-dry breach of that fiduciary duty, and you are fully within your rights to demand relief, which could be monetary, but could also be equitable, such as requiring your co-founder to relinquish control of the company, or to transfer ownership of the company's source code, domains, and IP to you. Whether any of this relief would be practically available to you would require expert legal advice and would depend highly on the specifics of your situation. To others in this thread, if you're looking to join a startup as a technical co-founder like this, 'We have very standard shareholder agreements for 4yr reverse vesting with 1yr cliff.' is not standard in the same way it is for other early employees. In this situation, your equity should be in real shares from the get-go, not options that vest over time. You should also have a partnership agreement or similar document that outlines how board-level decisions are made, and for a business with a few mostly-equal owners, such decisions should typically require consensus of the owners, even if one person controlls 51+% of the equity. This is the most reliable way to protect your interest in the business, and this is what true co-founder status looks like. If the O.P. had asked for this before signing on, my guess is that the co-founder would have balked, and the O.P. would have known from the get-go what the dynamics would be, and could have walked or insisted on a higher salary to reflect the fact that he's being treated like an employee not a business partner.
  • wpietri 6y ago
    I strongly agree. Find a lawyer, find a lawyer, find a lawyer. To the OP, if you're in California, I'm happy to recommend mine. Adam Slote of Slote Links and Boreman, slotelaw.com. 20 years back somebody was trying to screw me over; he charged me $500 for a solid "don't fuck around or you'll regret it" letter. They paid up instantly. Since then he's been great a dealing with my startup stuff both as an employee and as a cofounder. And much of his work is in litigation, so if you do end up suing, he's the right person for it. I also agree that the 1-year cliff is absolutely not standard for founders. Last time I did it, I had a 4-year reverse vest with no cliff at all.
• stanrivers 6y ago
  My assumption is that the co-founder would need the investors to vote to fire you? As in, he can't do so himself? So is his threat that he will leave if you don't leave? If he leaves, can you run it yourself and do you want to do that? My guess is that you would have to bring in someone to do whatever the co-founder was doing. Your equity ownership is worth something if you have 60k users. You have a subset of them paying something already it sounds like. This is a great thing, if you enjoy it and believe in it. If that is correct, then if your partner has a problem, and you think he is replaceable, then you don't seem to have to do anything related to his demands. I think this is also a good lesson in needing to have a really good relationship with the investors as well. If it is correct that they are the swing vote on decisions, you want them to appreciate you, know you well and understand the value you add.
• poulsbohemian 6y ago
  I'm trying to understand how your non-technical founder plans to continue supporting the product as they "work on it themselves". Is the intent to simply replace you with cheaper labor who won't expect equity? Have the investors asked for you to be replaced by someone of their choosing? This feels like a key point to the decision making, IE: knowing what the future leadership of the company will actually be and whether there really is a future here or best to walk away.
• hluska 6y ago
  You have some options: 1. Hire the best lawyer you can afford. This is easier said than done because there are relatively few lawyers who are qualified to do this kind of work. The ones who are qualified will be very expensive and unless I’m missing some key details, I don’t think you have much chance of coming out of litigation with a profit. You might come out with a W, but I don’t think it will be worth the cost. 2. Assume that this startup is fucked, leave and keep a good relationship with the seed investor. 3. Assume that this startup is fucked, stall for a month until you actually own stock and then you have some leverage. BUT, depending on where you live, you may/might/likely will incur a tax liability on those shares. If you already assume that the startup is fucked, talk with an accountant to figure out what this strategy will do to your 2020 taxes owing. 4. Assume that the startup is fucked and name the company/your cofounder. It would be damned nice to avoid this toxic piece of shit in the future. Outside of those options, I don’t see any other good choices.
• ohyes 6y ago
  It sounds like you own 40% of something fairly valuable and now that it's 11 months into your contract other founder who needed your help is getting greedy and trying to push you out before you are owed anything. You said it yourself, you've grown hugely, you're dominating SEO since you joined, and built loads of products. This is your 'partner' getting greedy after you've done a lot of hard work. It wouldn't have happened without you. Don't undersell yourself. Your 40% is worth $400k based on that initial funding valuation, right? Assuming it's as successful as you seem to be implying, it is almost certainly worth more now. Everyone is telling you to roll over but seriously, fuck them. This other toxic guy is the one who should be getting pushed out, not you. The other investor ultimately has power in this situation, not you or him, so whoever convinces them that they are the person to go with gets the seat and gets to continue with the project. If he has a good relationship there you're probably fucked, but results matter... and if you can prove you've done great stuff since joining and and have great plans for the future, he can be replaced. To be clear: this guy has decided to blow up the project so he can get a bigger share, if it all fails now he can only blame himself.
  • fossuser 6y ago
    Yeah - I don't see how people can tell them to just give up. Go scorched earth - what do you have to lose? Know the other guy is hostile and don't trust them to do the right thing. Consider your options outside of that and talk it over with the other investor. If you're the technical cofounder here you're probably in a stronger position to negotiate. If you can get the other investor to see what's happening here (your cofounder pushing you out one month before the cliff after you've helped to build things up) you may be able to get them on your side. As I see it without knowing details: - Either your contributions are real and your cofounder is a miserable person trying to screw you out of it and risking the company in order to do that. - Or you haven't done anything substantial and the cofounder wants you out. Even in this case it's still wrong of them to do this one month before vesting (and the way they're approaching it sounds dishonest, they should be direct). If it's truly the former I think getting the third investor to understand this is key, if the non-technical cofounder is risking the entire business at this stage they're going to be bad going forward - you probably need to get rid of them. If it's the latter (which seems unlikely since the other cofounder is non-technical) you'll still want to negotiate a reasonable exit, but it may be harder to do so (and you'll probably need a lawyer).
• teabee89 6y ago
  Is there a legal framework that allows company to convert OP's shares into debt to OP and essentially by the debt for $0? The debt would only have to be paid if certain conditions are met.
• cyphertruck 6y ago
  You must get a lawyer now. Below us my thoughts given several decades experience As founder- You have a strong position here, since you built the products. Don’t walk away. The ultimatum is counting in you being non-confrontational and wanting to cave. This cofounder has betrayed your trust at this point, so some sort of exit is needed. Non-technical is a lot easier to hire- you can get marketing or whatever expertise he has easily. He should be the one leaving. Maybe offer to buy him out at current equity value paid over 20 years at %6 interest, secured only by company stock. If he forces the issue he will destroy the company in the ensuing lawsuit. So this is a mutually assured destruction situation. What is the ownership of the software? Did you retain rights to it? If you are forced out can you recreate the company quickly using the software you already created? Get a lawyer, now. You need an advocate who is ready to play ball and who can be the “bad guy” for you. Your cofounder will likely try to spin it, try to portray any resistance from you as evidence of bad faith, etc. Don’t let him.
• jl87 6y ago
  If the other person is smart they will: Get your shares for free or cheap or Start over and own the entire thing
• markhelo 6y ago
  What about the third option which is you building 100% of a competitor who knows how everything works and can compete effectively?
• mattmaroon 6y ago
  You need to talk to a lawyer, not a bunch of internet randos. Ignore literally everything else you read here. The lawyer is going to need to see your contract with the company and look at applicable case law to advise you here.
• talkingtab 6y ago
  Don't agree to anything. That is all you have to do. When the company tries to raise money later, they will be asked about any other people who have an interest. At that point your company will need to address your issues and they will have money/incentive to do it. You don't need to be mean spirited, just say "Okay, I have my 40% and let me know if in the future you want to buy me out." And be fair. Don't walk away, don't sign anything that isn't fair to you, don't be mad, just be patient.
• Grustaf 6y ago
  If you insist on keeping your share and they shut the company down, I suppose they also wouldn’t be able to stop you from copying the idea?
• honkycat 6y ago
  I'm not a lawyer and don't know what I am talking about, but even if the other co-founder fired them, couldn't they file a wrongful termination suit since them being fired at this point would clearly not be due to performance, but due to the co-founder wanting to fuck them out of their shares? I may be vindictive but I would not walk away, and would rather see the whole venture tank than get blackmailed into giving away a year of my work for free. To be clear, I wouldn't do anything illegal that would be dumb. But I wouldn't roll over just because a bully tried to bully me out of my cut.
• e40 6y ago
  If he owns > 50% he can dilute you to whatever he wants. But, if he owns less than 50%, then he'd need to get voting control to do it. Is that possible? Do you own enough to prevent it? If so, I'd just tell him you're not interested. If he controls the Board, then he can do pretty much anything. He can create more shares and give them to himself (that would possibly create tax issues, so he might not want to do that). Also, I'm curious how the stock is valued. Do you know that?
• jacquesm 6y ago
  Talk to (1) a lawyer, and (2) the $100K investor. Because when capitalized that loan will quite probably tip the scales as long as they agree with you to a > 50% stake in the company.
• deleted 6y ago
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• rexreed 6y ago
  Why do so many people on this thread not understand how a one-year cliff works? The OP already has 40% of nothing. He has to earn that 40% over 4 years but if he leaves within the first year he gets nothing. All he has within the first 12 months is the promise of potentially 40% of something if he sticks around for 4 years. But honestly, as the lawyer in this thread said, this was a crummy deal from the get go. FOUNDERS (rather than employees) should get Founder shares, which are immediately vested. There can be conditions for "claw back" which allow the company to buy back / vest back shares for an early departure, but founders shouldn't have to "earn in" their share into a company that they start. After all, they started it. It's an odd idea indeed if all the founders have a 1-yr cliff because then in the first year no one technically owns anything! When they say "otherwise you'll own 40% of nothing", it's not even clear what they mean. Do they imply that they will dissolve the company and form a new one without you leaving you to hold an empty shell company? At best you can argue for your 1 yr cliff value, which is 10%. You're not in the position to negotiate between 40% or 3%. You can only negotiate between 3% and 10% because there's no way you're going to earn the 40% over 4 years.
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• tschellenbach 6y ago
  I'm not a lawyer, but depending on where you live it might take more than 1 month for them to actually succeed at firing your. For instance if you live in The Netherlands it would take months to arrange that if you don't agree.
• pdutt111 6y ago
  So you have every leverage in this scenario. > if he fires you that's wrongful termination(there's no performance issue until right before cliff). you can sue in that scenario > I'm guessing you have a board seat too. he doesn't have 51% voting rights so he probably needs the investors to side with him to oust you for which he needs a legitimate reason. (title of CEO doesn't really matter all that matters is the voting rights you're not an employee). > if there's a law suit and dispute between founders no investor will touch the company with a 10 foot pole, so if he goes for a fight he loses everything. > there's no reason to go down to 3% when you own 10% next month. and people think of 10 idea everyday all that matters is execution and if you wrote the code and gave around a year of your life that's worth around 100k for an entry level engineer so I'd say you put in more than the 10k he put in. > finally you have the code and you can tweak it and make it open-source there's no IP laws protecting code so at that point he owns nothing. > honestly the company is done, the investor is neutral cause he's already written the company off and I would say this is the point of no return no matter which side this goes the chances of running the company are rather slim. > the reason he doesn't want to monetize it is because he was probably planning on doing this to you, it'll be much harder to do it if the company is making money if you get out he'll monetize it the next day I'd stick to my guns and tell them if they don't buy you out then the company is dead. The only scenarios are - 1. he buys you out. 2. lets your equity remain ( he probably can't fire you ). 3. company goes down
• andy_ppp 6y ago
  Set up a meeting with the investor Andy UT partner and say you want to be as transparent as possible. Explain the situation and suggest to the investor that you and the Cofounder need to find a way of working together, otherwise one of you is going to have to leave with 40% of the company. This is a great example of where vesting for founders sorts all of this out clearly and makes it more difficult to get greedy. Of course this makes some assumptions about the legal agreements you have with the company. Do these agreements allow cofounders to be sacked usually, because I’m sure as hell writing into any I sign that I can’t be!
• jonfromsf 6y ago
  Slow play to your cliff. Then offer to accept your current vested equity, and let them negotiate you down a small discount on that. Like you will own 10% of the company, be OK with going down to 8% or whatever.
• danielovichdk 6y ago
  This is not sound advice nor is it mentally sober. But this is what i came to conclude. I once had a partner where we had a good business. After some years he fucked me. What matter to me is personal values and virtue, and even though he took a shortcut, i am going to catch him one day and make him understand tht history will catch up and he will be sorry he ever fucked me. I am not in a hurry. The longer time goes by, the more i am looking forward to the encounter. Money is not just money. It's also about being cool and having a good heart. Fuck em
• wolco2 6y ago
  Use your time to find his weakness and leverage your way out of this.
• jariel 6y ago
  This is a terrible situation because you're probably working with a really terrible founder. Even if you end up holding on to the 40%, it's likely they'll try to screw you hard in the future so be wary of that. If it's possible in the very, very nicest of indirect terms make sure they know they can get sued for these kind of shenanigans and it will ruin the company. Long term though, it's hard to say, because they'll aggressively want to take everything. Also: get a lawyer. (I should have said that first)
• digitaltrees 6y ago
  It feels like there is something not being said. Your cofounder just randomly woke up and said you should resign? Nothing triggered it, no prior conflict, no warning? Seems odd to me.
• simonswords82 6y ago
  You need to ask for lots of advice but ultimately you need to make your own mind up about the situation. This is a hot potato, everyone is going to have an opinion. So for this reason you need to make your mind up. Source: this thread - there's some very strong opinions here. Get some 121 advice instead, this thread is just guidance only.
• atian 6y ago
  Name and shame.
• sixty4bit 6y ago
  One idea would be to buy out the investor. I read in one of the comments that you do have some cash to spend. If you can work out a reasonable deal with the investor you would no longer have a neutral party doing nothing, you'd own 50%, and be able to set the terms.
• kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
  Lots of advice but none seems to have a basis in law and how this will play out in reality. You have an employment contract and rights. Your co-founder cannot fire you without cause (in most legal systems). Continue working and fulfilling your duties. Document everything and all conversions with dates and times. It's unlikely you can be forcibly removed as your co-operation will be required to ensure the product continues to operate. If you are forced out you'll have to present evidence to a court or employment tribunal so proceed with this in mind. You should start off with negotiating for your full 40% share, but accept 20%. Reverse vesting a non-issue if you are unlawfully terminated. However I suspect there is more going on here as very unusual to see this kind of dispute (smoke) without cause (fire).
• NicoJuicy 6y ago
  How long do you think the company will survive without you? Act accordingly. The ceo is trying to get someone in at a lower cost to take-over your work. Do you think it will work before the site crashes or a hard bug arises? Inform the investor and take the money out, be honest to him. He will not like this. He will wait to invest again ( or inform other investors), untill the CEO has proven he can do it, which he probably won't. Ask the cofounder to take on a loan if that's possible ( perhaps less than the equity), he thinks you are disposable. Get out and don't help out. Have the same contract with you as you do now, but take 10% of his equity, if you think it's going to fail. Don't fix anything untill he signed, don't create a bug before you leave. It's a normal thinking pattern of narcissists and it ressembles "the expert beginners" POV. There are more opportunities, don't try to spend a lot of time on it anymore. Ps. This will probably go to court, if it's worth it.
• thelastwave 6y ago
  This is a fight you don't want to back away from or you will likely regret it for the rest of your life. But don't fight, let the investor see the other guy as a "fighter" while you stay focused on the company fundamentals.
• hinkley 6y ago
  This reminds me of the person who bought my old house. It has issues. Those were factored into the price. But he kept trying to talk me down further because he had a story in his head of what this house was going to mean for his life and it wasn't turning out to be a deal that was too good to be true (note: banks reject loans for houses that are too good to be true). On the last back and forth round I offered to meet below the middle and it turned out he wanted me to meet him 3/4 of the way. When you consider the overall price of a house and how many % that is, it seems like a smallish thing to disagree over. But if your equity in the house is low, the house hasn't appreciated much, or both, a few percent could be a good deal of your profit margin, especially if you count in taxes and repairs like a sober investor, instead of the typical magical thinking about houses as investments. Between us and my realtor we finally convinced ourselves that his dreams were not our problem. I'm not going to sacrifice my future so someone else can go live their best life - particularly when the goal is for them to live that life without me in it. If you're not my child that option isn't even on the table. You selfish, selfish bastard. (We called his bluff, he bought the house anyway.)
• tkay2617 6y ago
  Can you wait for another month, get your 10% and part ways with that business? That seems a fair and reasonable compensation for 1 year of work. I'd insist on a contract that would protect your share from dilution.
• swat535 6y ago
  I'm going to go against the grain here and say that you shouldn't make decisions based on what random people on the internet say. By all means read all the replies but the best course of action is to seek professional counsel and guidance from an attorney. You may or may not have to go through a legal battle to get your share. You should document everything as soon as you can, text messages and emails. The more paper trails you have, the better. Don't agree to anything verbally or sign anything. Finally, don't make hasty decisions on an impulse. It would be best to be cautious and consider all possibilities.
  • nsrivast 6y ago
    This is the correct guidance. Nobody here is informed enough on the details to provide strategic advice. I had something very similar happen to me, and am happy to share my learnings on managing health and emotions through this process.
• rsweeney21 6y ago
  A lot of people saying you own 40% of this startup so you need to fight for it are giving you bad advice. Based on what you said, you don't own anything yet because you haven't vested any shares. If you are a Corporation, and your corporation is setup in a standard way with your partner as the CEO, he can fire you. They only thing you can do is go to your board of directors and plead your case. The board has the ability to fire the CEO, so they can force him to retain you. If you are an LLC, then you don't really have a cap table and there is a good chance there is no vesting. You have something else. You need to read your operating agreement. It will define who has the real ownership and how the buy out process works.
• neosavvy 6y ago
  I’ve been through this. Twice. Once it got hostile. Allocate some money to hire a lawyer. Have your lawyer send him an email as a first step with your buy out terms. This would be skipping a step I went through which was the disagreement where we realized we weren’t good for each other in business anymore. Let your partner sit on that a while. He has no leg to stand on, and if folds and competes with an identical business you can sue him on grounds against his Fiduciary Duties to the current business. Maybe also google “Fiduciary Duties”.
• hsuduebc 6y ago
  This is sick. Wishing you good luck and even better lawyer.
• newbie789 6y ago
  I hope this works out for you! I am not sure how I could contribute much insight without quite a bit more detail, this strikes me as "Should I hire a lawyer?" to which I'd say "yes." Without knowing how your partner is inclined to act or respond to negotiations, or what your negotiation strategy is and how likely it'll be effective in this dynamic it's all a giant question mark. Essentially it's like asking a website "How do I win a fistfight?" except unlike actual fistfights, there's an entire profession and industry dedicated to people that can (hopefully) act effectively as your proxy. If you're genuinely dead-set on not getting a lawyer, then you've got a fistfight scenario on your hands. If that's what you're looking for, make sure that you've taken stock of your capabilities and those of your adversary and form a strategy accordingly. This answer is basically as vague as the question though.
• bodegajed 6y ago
  I'd say take the 3% and continue. Current price has little or no value anyway. If you take 3% and just chill for 2 years you get a higher price per share. Don't let the emotions run over you right now
• wdb 6y ago
  Hard to give advise as you don’t specify which lawsapplies. Could California, US, or any country were the $ is the currency. Could even be based in US but other countries laws apply I have had that kind of mess in the past
• adamsea 6y ago
  IANAL or a founder but it seems to me the #1 thing to do is hire a good lawyer and listen to their advice.
• piyushpr134 6y ago
  Tell him that you would sue if you are forced into any decision. You have built this with your sweat and blood. Do not give up. If anyone has to leave, he should. Go to investors and tell them you would sue if forced into this kind of blackmail. And no empty threats. Please lawyer up
• asah 6y ago
  Sorry, that sucks. Every situation is unique and I'm sure there's more to this, so I wouldn't seek or accept legal advice from HN (including me). DM if you want a referral to a veteran silicon valley executive compensation attorney. That's the pro move, it's less expensive than you might think and results in a lot more long term happiness for all parties involved. (I'm a veteran engineer myself and between myself and friends, lots of experience in these sorts of matters)
• piyushpr134 6y ago
  Stay on and fight. If anyone has to walk away it is the other guy. Believe me. Lawyer up and fight it out
• dadrian 6y ago
  I have gone through something very similar, feel free to email me.
• kotxig 6y ago
  "Take the 3% otherwise you'll own 40% of nothing" I would call the bluff. It doesn't look like you have many options to exit with a cash settlement unless you're allowed to sell your own equity. I wouldn't take 3%, 15% minimum. Have you talked to your investors? They might be able to provide some guidance. It's possible that they know nothing or they are responsible for the move, so you need to figure out where they stand. I would personally be looking to kick the CEO out with support from the investors. See how the CEO behaves when the shoe is on the other foot.
• mawise 6y ago
  Disclosure, I have no specialized knowledge or experience. I wonder if he's already worked a deal with the investor? If he's offering the investor half of your stake to push you out (for example), you might be able to turn the tables and offer the investor 3/4 of his stake (or all of it) to push him out. This depends on your ability to have a frank conversation with the investor and their faith that you can continue to drive the company. If that's the case it also means the investor is probably toxic which doesn't bode well for the future relationship but it might at least prevent your co-founder from getting away with this.
• durwood 6y ago
  get a fucking lawyer
• deleted 6y ago
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• rmk 6y ago
  Is it possible the investor is in cahoots with your cofounder? If so, then you may not have a strong position. Are you sure your cofounder is not screwing you over at the investor's behest? If it's not something that's (technically) complicated, your cofounder may be thinking of hiring in help to replace whatever value you are providing (i.e., you are fungible, he's not).
• kovac 6y ago
  This quote might put things in perspective: "The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can’t do. For instance, you can accept that your father was a pirate and a good man or you can’t. But pirate is in your blood, boy, so you’ll have to square with that some day. And me, for example, I can let you drown, but I can’t bring this ship into Tortuga all by me onesies, savvy? So, can you sail under the command of a pirate, or can you not?" (Jack Sparrow) So, the question is what these other guys can do vs what you can do. You probably want to keep track of any correspondence regarding this matter in case legal action becomes an option. I hope no sane board will think that facing legal action is worth any cofounder's "wants" and "likes".
• billylindeman 6y ago
  Maybe you could make a buyout proposal in the form of a promissory note at a price you deem fair?
• danbmil99 6y ago
  Who is on the board, and who is the CEO?
• avemuri 6y ago
  Speak with the other investor, negotiate a buyout or negotiate exit terms and equity. I'm guessing you'd own 10% if you left after one year and left the rest unvested. You may need to risk a small chance of owning 40% of nothing to get this fair settlement. It's worth it. The worst thing you can do is stay. Any compromises you make for the greater good in hopes of getting past this and putting it behind you are likely to come back to bite you 9 out of 10 times. Cofounder conflict doesn't go away so easily.
• HelloNurse 6y ago
  If you have more available capital than your co-founder, can you put enough financial pressure on them (e.g. ask someone to collect their credits and loans) and/or on the company (e.g. seek out investments and expense opportunities to spend money on urgently) to buy them out in a few weeks or months?
• noworld 6y ago
  Can you sell your stake to another outside investor, and let that investor deal with the co-founder?
• deleted 6y ago
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• rlucas 6y ago
  A meta-comment here: Beware the advice you might glean here. Often, surveying HN for the consensus provides a signal; more often, skimming the cream of the commentary provides a better signal. Here, a lot will be misleading, particularly to the kind of founder who would otherwise be inclined to seek some direction from HN commentary. Here's my best try as an antidote: Remember that as a technical founder, unlike almost any other kind of knowledge-worker, you have a non-zero chance of generating $1 B in equity value for yourself in every new company you start. But for a company to do so, it will require getting enormously lucky and getting you strapped in for years of extremely intense work along with your team (and likely, investors & board). You should never bail because of mere problems with product-market fit or current sales traction, because those things can change dramatically and swiftly. You should always bail if your faith in, and interest in working with, the people around you goes to zero. When you do bail, go graciously and negotiate some kind of spiff on the way out, but don't belabor it. Your mental energy is far, far better spent preparing for the next big thing, and you are getting the better end of the bargain, for you have now denuded yourself of the albatross of a team you won't succeed with.
• deleted 6y ago
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• rurban 6y ago
  Watch the movie "Startup.com", exactly the same problem. https://youtu.be/ibuiUXOTE4M https://youtu.be/ibuiUXOTE4M Those guys really think they can get away with everything, but you really need to be prepared for sociopaths.
• mbrodersen 6y ago
  You don’t have to do anything. What you own is what you own.
• tubularhells 6y ago
  Just don't sell then. What they gonna do, they are bound contractually. If they try something fishy like getting toxic, abusive, etc and still doesn't want to buy out, I'd just blow the server on them, which, along with the entire code base, had no working backups uNfOrTuNaTeLy, then spin up a company two months down the line under a shell company that is registered via lawyers and doesn't have your name on the public papers.