6 ms·

For what it’s worth, I’m an American & American politics strains my American relationship with my American friends & family. Fuck this red/blue shit.

lotsofpulp 6y ago
I don’t understand “red/blue” shit. For me, it’s “improving quality of life for wage earners and affirming civil liberties / vs not doing the aforementioned” shit. A cousin in my family has a very valid grievance against business owner uncles that support politicians who don’t want to provide meal breaks or bathroom breaks. This cousin has to work 12 to 14 hour shifts, and eat standing up while working and sneak in bathroom breaks. That’s not “red/blue” shit.
- rossdavidh 6y ago
  Thank you for demonstrating the phenomenon so well.
- ziggy556 6y ago
  If that's your stance then evidently you don't understand why the other "side" even exists.
  - PopeDotNinja 6y ago
    We can disagree without sworn enemies.
  - tpm 6y ago
    It exists mostly because of massive propaganda financed by very wealthy people for whom it is essential to indoctrinate masses to be even more wealthy and powerful.
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      I don’t understand how it’s propaganda when one can analyze labors laws in various jurisdictions and see that all the areas with labor laws better for workers and poorer people are mostly in areas governed by Democrats.
      - tartoran 6y ago
        Thats the whole point, the propaganda is also disinformation and making other issues seem a lot more decisive and important than what really affects the people. The propaganda makes them vote against their interests
      - tpm 6y ago
        I obviously didn't mean the side that supports labor laws better for workers.
    - IOT_Apprentice 6y ago
      Not clear why you are being downvoted. Oligarch Rebekah Mercer has funded/sponsored Breitbart, Steve Bannon, Donald Trump, Parler and more. When their sock puppets get out of line--they lose their funding. See Steve Bannon, who now is in the pocket of a rogue Chinese Billionaire. There are many more like her and her father.
- geerlingguy 6y ago
  This viewpoint (where the unstated understanding is 'the group that is good is Democrats, and the group that is evil is Republicans') is part of the problem. The world is more complicated than that.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    The viewpoint that both groups are just as bad or just as good for wage earners is a problem. It’s easily verifiable that Democratic states have better laws for wage earners, and have pushed for policies that benefit wage earners. They’re nowhere near perfect, but there’s no reason to pretend Dems and Repubs are the same.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
      But it’s also easily verifiable that there are many wage earners in both parties, meaning many who don’t agree with your standards for which policies are better.
      - tzs 6y ago
        That's not necessarily true, because for many people there are issues more important to them than where a candidate stands on issues related to wage earning. For example, there are many people who in a race where one candidate favors restricting or ending abortion and the other favors reducing restrictions on abortion will choose whichever of the two agrees with their position on abortion, regardless of where the two candidates stand on anything else such as economic issues or foreign policy issues.
    - chrisjarvis 6y ago
      both sides push for higher immigration and a globalized market, which have more effect on wage-earners in the US than any policy in "Democratic states". Imo you are missing the forest thru the trees, at scale they really are the same.
      - Daishiman 6y ago
- bluntfang 6y ago
  No offense, but neither the 2 major parties in the US are left/workers rights. I don't see any candidate running on the "improve quality of life for wage earners" platform. for example Joe "nothing with fundamentally change" Biden...and well the last 4 years.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    See the list of states with parental leave: https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/states-with-paid-family-leave/ https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/states-with-pai... Similarly, see the list of states (and cities) with half decent unemployment benefits, minimum wage laws, non tipped wages, sick leave, required meal breaks, non compete bans, Medicaid, marijuana legalization, etc. You will see a trend in which parties’ governance wage earners have these benefits (which are a pittance compared to civilized countries in the first place) and which don’t.
    - criddell 6y ago
      While being a very Republican state, Oklahoma has a pretty long history of some very progressive programs. For example, Oklahoma funds pre-K programs for children: https://hechingerreport.org/why-oklahomas-public-preschools-are-some-of-the-best-in-the-country/ https://hechingerreport.org/why-oklahomas-public-preschools-...
      - lotsofpulp 6y ago
        That’s great, but unfortunately, it’s an exception. Again, my comment wasn’t to imply that one party is perfect, but to show that the policies they push make a real difference in people’s lives, especially lower income earners.
  - Loughla 6y ago
    That's what people missed about Trump's supporters in 2016. People genuinely believed he was going to work for the common man. He talked about workers rights (in a xenophobic sort of way, but still) he talked about increasing pay for blue collar workers, and about restoring the lost legacy to places that have been abandoned by globalization. That never got talked about by Trump detractors. Union working class Joe-Schmoe's used to vote democrat, and now solidly do not. There's a reason for that. Edit: Please note that I never said he did those things, just that they were what he promised. He is completely full of crap on almost everything he says, those promises at the top of the pile. But that is the reason working class Joe love him. He says the things they want to hear.
- zo1 6y ago
  So you picked your political allegiance based on the party that most aligns to the criteria that are important to you. That's far from universal and other people have different criteria that are important to them.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    Yea, but the point is it’s not color A versus color B. It’s “I pick my political allegiance based on the party that will most likely help those at the bottom of the totem pole” versus “not doing that”. All of my fellow republican business owners were bristling at the idea of Obama’s executive order increasing the minimum salary for exempt workers. This is because they would have had to pay their immigrant workers $44k per year for 60+ hour work weeks who they designated as “managers”, rather than $30k per year under current rules. Again, I’m not saying Democrats are perfect, and they are far from it. But at least some Democrat states, and politicians are making an effort, whereas I can’t say the same about Repubs. Hence, it’s not just color A vs color B.
- tomatotomato37 6y ago
  That's a class thing, not a culture war thing, and I bet you'll find many the stereotypical redneck that would also be in support of better working laws, because the stereotypical redneck is also poor and working shit jobs. The thing is they also have strong opinions on guns or abortion or whatever else social issues and this all-or-nothing attitude in politics means they have to align themselves with whatever group they perceive will abuse them less
- jl6 6y ago
  Consider that your political opponents may also want to achieve the same goals but may have a radically different and less direct method of doing it. Then you might understand that you have something in common with them, and find a way to have civil disagreement instead of othering them.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- eznzt 6y ago
  See, you are part of the problem.
- helaoban 6y ago
  You could also ask why California has the worst-maintained roads in the United States, has mountains of trash littering the center divide and shoulders of its freeways, has huge numbers of homeless people living in slums just blocks away from some of the highest wage earners (and ostensibly highest tax payers) in the country. How does California vote? That’s not “red/blue” shit. See, I can play this game too.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    I agree. Maybe it’s because of various SC rulings making involuntary committal to mental health institutions impossible, and the temperate weather that allows people to exist without homes more comfortably than other places. Maybe it’s other policies, or economic forces. But as you point out, there are real world affects of supporting different political parties.
Gravityloss 6y ago
Do you both know of the concept of out-group homogeneity? I wonder if that would help. I experience a lot that people expect me to have all kind of weird opinions because they think I'm part of a group which they think holds these opinions. They think I'm part of that group because some of my opinions match with the group.

lotsofpulp 6y ago

I don’t understand “red/blue” shit. For me, it’s “improving quality of life for wage earners and affirming civil liberties / vs not doing the aforementioned” shit. A cousin in my family has a very valid grievance against business owner uncles that support politicians who don’t want to provide meal breaks or bathroom breaks. This cousin has to work 12 to 14 hour shifts, and eat standing up while working and sneak in bathroom breaks. That’s not “red/blue” shit.

rossdavidh 6y ago
Thank you for demonstrating the phenomenon so well.
ziggy556 6y ago
If that's your stance then evidently you don't understand why the other "side" even exists.
- PopeDotNinja 6y ago
  We can disagree without sworn enemies.
- tpm 6y ago
  It exists mostly because of massive propaganda financed by very wealthy people for whom it is essential to indoctrinate masses to be even more wealthy and powerful.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    I don’t understand how it’s propaganda when one can analyze labors laws in various jurisdictions and see that all the areas with labor laws better for workers and poorer people are mostly in areas governed by Democrats.
    - tartoran 6y ago
      Thats the whole point, the propaganda is also disinformation and making other issues seem a lot more decisive and important than what really affects the people. The propaganda makes them vote against their interests
    - tpm 6y ago
      I obviously didn't mean the side that supports labor laws better for workers.
  - IOT_Apprentice 6y ago
    Not clear why you are being downvoted. Oligarch Rebekah Mercer has funded/sponsored Breitbart, Steve Bannon, Donald Trump, Parler and more. When their sock puppets get out of line--they lose their funding. See Steve Bannon, who now is in the pocket of a rogue Chinese Billionaire. There are many more like her and her father.
geerlingguy 6y ago
This viewpoint (where the unstated understanding is 'the group that is good is Democrats, and the group that is evil is Republicans') is part of the problem. The world is more complicated than that.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  The viewpoint that both groups are just as bad or just as good for wage earners is a problem. It’s easily verifiable that Democratic states have better laws for wage earners, and have pushed for policies that benefit wage earners. They’re nowhere near perfect, but there’s no reason to pretend Dems and Repubs are the same.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    But it’s also easily verifiable that there are many wage earners in both parties, meaning many who don’t agree with your standards for which policies are better.
    - tzs 6y ago
      That's not necessarily true, because for many people there are issues more important to them than where a candidate stands on issues related to wage earning. For example, there are many people who in a race where one candidate favors restricting or ending abortion and the other favors reducing restrictions on abortion will choose whichever of the two agrees with their position on abortion, regardless of where the two candidates stand on anything else such as economic issues or foreign policy issues.
  - chrisjarvis 6y ago
    both sides push for higher immigration and a globalized market, which have more effect on wage-earners in the US than any policy in "Democratic states". Imo you are missing the forest thru the trees, at scale they really are the same.
    - Daishiman 6y ago
bluntfang 6y ago
No offense, but neither the 2 major parties in the US are left/workers rights. I don't see any candidate running on the "improve quality of life for wage earners" platform. for example Joe "nothing with fundamentally change" Biden...and well the last 4 years.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  See the list of states with parental leave: https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/states-with-paid-family-leave/ https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/states-with-pai... Similarly, see the list of states (and cities) with half decent unemployment benefits, minimum wage laws, non tipped wages, sick leave, required meal breaks, non compete bans, Medicaid, marijuana legalization, etc. You will see a trend in which parties’ governance wage earners have these benefits (which are a pittance compared to civilized countries in the first place) and which don’t.
  - criddell 6y ago
    While being a very Republican state, Oklahoma has a pretty long history of some very progressive programs. For example, Oklahoma funds pre-K programs for children: https://hechingerreport.org/why-oklahomas-public-preschools-are-some-of-the-best-in-the-country/ https://hechingerreport.org/why-oklahomas-public-preschools-...
    - lotsofpulp 6y ago
      That’s great, but unfortunately, it’s an exception. Again, my comment wasn’t to imply that one party is perfect, but to show that the policies they push make a real difference in people’s lives, especially lower income earners.
- Loughla 6y ago
  That's what people missed about Trump's supporters in 2016. People genuinely believed he was going to work for the common man. He talked about workers rights (in a xenophobic sort of way, but still) he talked about increasing pay for blue collar workers, and about restoring the lost legacy to places that have been abandoned by globalization. That never got talked about by Trump detractors. Union working class Joe-Schmoe's used to vote democrat, and now solidly do not. There's a reason for that. Edit: Please note that I never said he did those things, just that they were what he promised. He is completely full of crap on almost everything he says, those promises at the top of the pile. But that is the reason working class Joe love him. He says the things they want to hear.
zo1 6y ago
So you picked your political allegiance based on the party that most aligns to the criteria that are important to you. That's far from universal and other people have different criteria that are important to them.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  Yea, but the point is it’s not color A versus color B. It’s “I pick my political allegiance based on the party that will most likely help those at the bottom of the totem pole” versus “not doing that”. All of my fellow republican business owners were bristling at the idea of Obama’s executive order increasing the minimum salary for exempt workers. This is because they would have had to pay their immigrant workers $44k per year for 60+ hour work weeks who they designated as “managers”, rather than $30k per year under current rules. Again, I’m not saying Democrats are perfect, and they are far from it. But at least some Democrat states, and politicians are making an effort, whereas I can’t say the same about Repubs. Hence, it’s not just color A vs color B.
tomatotomato37 6y ago
That's a class thing, not a culture war thing, and I bet you'll find many the stereotypical redneck that would also be in support of better working laws, because the stereotypical redneck is also poor and working shit jobs. The thing is they also have strong opinions on guns or abortion or whatever else social issues and this all-or-nothing attitude in politics means they have to align themselves with whatever group they perceive will abuse them less
jl6 6y ago
Consider that your political opponents may also want to achieve the same goals but may have a radically different and less direct method of doing it. Then you might understand that you have something in common with them, and find a way to have civil disagreement instead of othering them.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
eznzt 6y ago
See, you are part of the problem.
helaoban 6y ago
You could also ask why California has the worst-maintained roads in the United States, has mountains of trash littering the center divide and shoulders of its freeways, has huge numbers of homeless people living in slums just blocks away from some of the highest wage earners (and ostensibly highest tax payers) in the country. How does California vote? That’s not “red/blue” shit. See, I can play this game too.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  I agree. Maybe it’s because of various SC rulings making involuntary committal to mental health institutions impossible, and the temperate weather that allows people to exist without homes more comfortably than other places. Maybe it’s other policies, or economic forces. But as you point out, there are real world affects of supporting different political parties.

Gravityloss 6y ago

Do you both know of the concept of out-group homogeneity? I wonder if that would help. I experience a lot that people expect me to have all kind of weird opinions because they think I'm part of a group which they think holds these opinions. They think I'm part of that group because some of my opinions match with the group.