29 ms·

So you've made a mistake and it's public

• justin_oaks 6y ago
  > What should I do when I see someone else is making a mistake? > When you see others making mistakes, first help them see their mistakes and deal with them (e.g. by recycling this text, or by independently offering your analysis and answers to Steps 1 and 2 above). > Remember you make mistakes too, and be tolerant of the time it may take people to accept that they have made a mistake. (But you don't need to allow them to insist they have not made a mistake.) I especially appreciate this. Far too often I see people reacting to people's mistakes with anger and hostility, instead of first trying to 1) understand the situation, and 2) help the person who made the mistake (if there even was one) understand the mistake. A little kindness goes a long way. [Edit: formatting]
  • TriNetra 6y ago
    The funny thing is, if you ponder for a while, you'll realize you'd have done some similar mistakes. But such reflection requires being honest to oneself and setting aside/rising above one's ego and doing an unbias reflection for few moments. Then a spontaneous smile will light up your face and unconsciously somewhere you've broken some string of ego otherwise holding you tightly all through your life.
    • justin_oaks 6y ago
      Indeed. Whenever I get cut off on the freeway, I try to remember the times when I accidentally cut someone off but had no way to express "Oops, sorry!" We all get it wrong sometimes.
      • d_tr 6y ago
        In my country we raise our hand to say "thank you", but I also do this to say "I 'm sorry" when there is no other safe way to communicate.
        • rendall 6y ago
          That's neat. What country is that?
          • d_tr 6y ago
            Greece :)
            • jaclaz 6y ago
              Italy, too.
      • herodoturtle 6y ago
        Someone oughta tell Tesla to make a "I'm sorry!" button that when pressed shows SORRY written in large LED jazz on all window panels.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • lapetitejort 6y ago
    It should be noted that you should contact them about their mistake in the most private way possible, then escalating slowly as the need arises. This follows the "praise in public, punish in private" maxim.
    • aequitas 6y ago
      This makes me think, it is opposite to what mostly is used in open source projects that have bugtrackers. Github is filled with countless 'mistakes' (issues/pr's) people made in the code they published. Should there be some kind of way to make issues private? Before I was into open source I was always afraid to show my code to anyone because of the critique I could expect. But some coworkers helped me get the confidence I needed to go open source (within the company, not public internet). Being completely open about everything and accepting critique publicly really helped me grow as a developer to also be open to others. I wonder if I would have made the same transformation if I was only critiqued in private.
      • tsimionescu 6y ago
        Bugs are not critiques. Working in software development, you learn extremely quickly that everyone writes bugs, and there is nothing to be embarrassed about. The openness of issue trackers even helps elevate that. On the other hand, it's not normal and not often practiced to go digging to see whose mistake introduced a bug and call them out in public on it - that would be what shouldn't be done at all.
        • aequitas 6y ago
          > Bugs are not critiques. Not only (technical) bugs are reported, but also design decisions and such. A lot of those things often come down to difference in opinion. I've seen some developers be really adamant about how a bug was actually a feature. > The openness of issue trackers even helps elevate that. I agree partly. For me it helped see things different and make a positive growth. But I can image some staying afraid to enter or be deterred really quick never coming back. >> This follows the "praise in public, punish in private" maxim. So like the previous poster said. I am wondering if Github et al. should not contain a private channel. I have a email on my Github page. And besides spammers I sometimes get questions regarding my projects. I don't know if it is due to people not understanding Github that well[0] or wanting to contact privately[1]. But for some reason they didn't open a public issue[2]. [0] I've met a lot of technical people that just are afraid of Github because it is complex. Electrical engineers, mechanics, embedded engineers. People I figure would understand software development concepts. [1] Asking a stupid question publicly could also count toward making a public mistake depending on how secure someone feels about themselves. [2] There is of course also the discussion if issues should be your projects helpdesk next to being an bug tracker. And raising an 'issue' for something that might just be a question might feel strange for some.
  • anuila 6y ago
    I have trouble handling others’ mistakes if I’ve corrected them before, they acknowledged the mistake, but they keep doing them. What am I supposed to do with people who won’t learn from their mistakes (in the workplace)? I’m directly affected by them as they increase my workload, so I can’t just ignore them.
    • derekbreden 6y ago
      I recently had a coworker point out to me a grammatical error I keep repeating, flush vs flesh, that he had reminded me of a year ago. I recently pointed out to a different coworker some whitespace inconsistency in a pull request in a similar fashion as I had pointed out a while back. In digging deeper into both situations where I was the reporter or the reportee, the issue came down to legitimate lack of agreement on whether it was indeed a mistake.
      • vonseel 6y ago
        Yea, unless you're professional writers, and I don't mean coders, that's not the right kind of things to focus on in pull requests. I mean, if someone happens to be great at code but really terrible at English, like you can't imagine they passed high school grammar, maybe it's a good idea to help them improve. But the average college educated developer writes well enough to write succinct and readable code comments and documentation. Or should be able to.
      • mixmastamyk 6y ago
        Even when we learn from a mistake it may still happen in the future. Hopefully we have reduced its frequency but it can still happen. For example, I sometimes write "too be honest…". I've known it is wrong for decades, but occasionally am still not able to see it. Still happens about one out of every fifth time.
      • FanaHOVA 6y ago
        > I recently pointed out to a different coworker some whitespace inconsistency in a pull request in a similar fashion as I had pointed out a while back. Just use transformers :)
  • harlanji 6y ago
    I’m glad others out there see it this way. I made a minor mistake, and a former employer and manager used it to make me totally unable to work again by blowing it up as much as possible. It’ll blow back on them eventually, but in the meantime I’ve been made homeless and lost all my friends. Since lawyers are involved and profit from my mistake looking worse than it was, there will never be an honest reconciliation. The court of public opinion is the only way they might be convinced to show some kindness.
    • robaato 6y ago
      Really tough situation - thoughts and prayers with you. Hang in there, meditate, focus on things you can control.
    • rendall 6y ago
      That's awful. I'm sorry to hear it. Feel free to reach out to me if you want someone to hear your tale
  • andi999 6y ago
    Remember you make mistakes too [citation needed]
  • austincheney 6y ago
    Kindness doesn't solve a problem. It's better to employ empathy and reassurance which aren't necessarily the same thing as kindness. It seems that is perhaps what you otherwise implied.
  • globular-toast 6y ago
    I think the anger and hostility usually happens when the person doesn't accept that they've made a mistake. So I think it goes both ways. If someone contacts you about a mistake, don't immediately get on the defensive. Instead, relish in the opportunity to learn.
• cbzehner 6y ago
  If this isn't an ironic commentary on current events...
  • oritsnile 6y ago
    I'm out of the loop, what current events?
    • cactus2093 6y ago
      Probably the idea that you can pretend the truth is whatever you say it is, say whatever you want, never admit a mistake, and hundreds of millions of people will still back you up and continue to trust you. As seen by the president of the US ignoring election results, and countless other things done and said by that administration and their allies.
      • djsumdog 6y ago
        You realize this goes both ways. There are tons and tons of election irregularities. The presidential legal team has several lawsuits that are going forward and recounts going forward. There are literally tens of thousands of dead people who have voted in areas with very small margins. So your statement ... you're making a truth. You're saying what you want it to be, even though there is tons and tons of evidence against that point (that the main stream media is intentionally ignoring and refusing to cover). It goes both ways and our social psyche is now fragmented.
        • cactus2093 6y ago
          If you say so dude, and hey I have nothing against the using the legal process as it's intended. However there really is not tons of evidence, you haven't provided a shred of evidenced, nobody anywhere has produced any credible evidence of any of this. If they had the mainstream media would be all over it because any scandal is very good for their bottom line. And I hope you'll retract your dangerous statements once the court cases are resolved and the recounts finished and not a single state is overturned.
• triangleman 6y ago
  I thought this would be a discussion of how to remove PII from Wikipedia from the edit history.
  • chrononaut 6y ago
    For those interested, there's a Wikipedia namespace article on that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Oversight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Oversight
• Negitivefrags 6y ago
  I find it helpful when writing apology posts to start it by writing down the timeline of events. Don’t insert any commentary attempting to justify anything in this part, it just comes off as defensive. Instead just outline what happened though you can include the immediate cause of decisions you made. “Because I was worried about how people would react to X I decided to do Y” Then after that you can write all the stuff that they list in this post. I think it helps a lot to get the audience into the same situation you where in in their minds before understanding the context of how you actually screwed up.
  • macspoofing 6y ago
    >I find it helpful when writing apology posts ... How many apology posts do you write? Why would you need to write any? I don't understand why any apology needs to be public.
    • Negitivefrags 6y ago
      I ran a game company. There are lots of occasions where we made a change the players didn't like, or we screwed up in a way that led to economic damage to some players, or just had an operational issue that led to a bunch of downtime. Here is a random example of onee of these. https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2603061/page/1 https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2603061/page/1
      • laughinghan 6y ago
        Your apology posts are excellent and you deserve the positive response you get on them.
      • vitus 6y ago
        Incident reports such as this one are incredibly valuable for understanding what went wrong and deficiencies that need to be addressed, but also what went well (e.g. point-in-time rollback as effective mitigation). The full timeline is valuable since you can look back on it and determine what went wrong when, so you can determine what changes need to happen to prevent these same issues in the future. One thing I find is that incident reports such as these are most useful internally, but when communicated externally, they demonstrate that you're taking the underlying issues seriously and are committed to addressing them.
• ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
  I like that. I'm quite good at apologizing, because I need to do it so often. I get lots of practice. The American abhorrence for admitting fault and/or apologizing is quite mystifying to me. It's really corrosive. I've spent 40 years, promptly admitting mistakes, and repairing, where possible. WFM. YMMV.
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    Perhaps this has to do with lawsuits.
    • packetlost 6y ago
      I doubt it. It's a cultural thing, and probably partly a manifestation of individualism.
      • throwaways885 6y ago
        Admitting fault when needed is a core aspect of being a good individual.
        • krick 6y ago
          That is, if you define "good" from collectivistic point of view...
        • packetlost 6y ago
          Correct, but a lot of people are either not good individuals, or improperly see it as a sign of weakness.
        • fakedang 6y ago
          Admitting fault is against individualism.
    • ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
      Partly, but when I posited that, some time ago, it drew a fair bit of ire. It's also something emotional. I grew up overseas, so I guess it never happened for me, so I sort of stand to the side, bemused.
• tlogan 6y ago
  This is why Trump is a genius. The step 0 should be: never ever admin the mistake. Since you will look bad even if you admit the mistake: it makes no difference.
  • mhh__ 6y ago
    Genius or psychopath? I'm sure a lot more people would be successful with absolute zero morals - e.g. Hazing your young son for trusting you, as told by Trump Jr
  • wizzwizz4 6y ago
    You will look bad even if you admit the mistake. But admitting to a mistake is good – assuming people already know about the mistake, it's good press to do so. (Especially if you're revealing the mistake to them, when they haven't already seen the mistake; if half of your mistakes are “oh, I messed up”, versus the same number of mistakes but they come out in newspapers first… which is going to look better for you?
    • tlogan 6y ago
      > > But admitting to a mistake is good > Yes - if that is what you care about. But from what I see not so many people in the world care about "good". They just "want more". For example, when a customer reports a problem, and I admit that there is a bug and explain a workaround some of them will say: "you have buggy software, bla bla I will use Google". But if you say: "Strange. This might some very strange setup issue - here is the workaround" - no problem. Of course, some of our customers love honesty but the vertical I'm working in, honesty is not a thing. Depressing... I know.
      • wizzwizz4 6y ago
        That's because you can successfully deceive people as to whether you made a mistake.
  • Supermancho 6y ago
    Not sure why this is downvoted when its apropos. ^Trumps behavior is an effective counter example to the evolved list of rules, wikipedia puts forth as good autocratic process...insofar as wikipedia is more autocratic than communal by contribution. ^Obviously trump is not a genious
• willeh 6y ago
  This is purely my personal opinion, but the wikipedia community seems like one of the most toxic communities on the web. The people contributing to WP - the editors - seem more concerned with coming up with Kafka-esque processes to introduce to the community than making the actual work of making an encyclopaedia. Perhaps the only area where editors are as zealous they are about creating obscure processes, is in policing what content should they should fit into the their volumes. Truly, it is a bureaucracy expanding to meet its own needs. One that attracts a certain group of people, who have a certain view of social interactions, that necessitates certain procedures for social interactions, giving rise to articles like this one specifically. For the rest of us cooking up an apology from a recipe is feel insincere, an apology is a ritual sure showing how its done ruins the illusion. On a higher level this type of process-over-vision thinking has ruined the goals and ideas of Wikipedia, a site which in the 00s seemed world-changing and lead it to it's decline in the 10s and to what I predict will be its fall in the 20s. I hope to be wrong about WP, I hope for a new wave of optimistic idealism to swallow up tech again, bringing about a new era of amateurism. But with the professionalisation of even the free software community I have, I must admit, all but given up hope.
  • walrus01 6y ago
    I think it's important to draw a distinction between mediawiki, the software, and all of its associated (GPL, BSD, apache) licensed ancillary software, and the administration and content side of wikipedia. mediawiki is used by a lot of organizations for internal wiki stuff.
  • offtop5 6y ago
    Considering Reddit and 4Chan are things, Wikipedia is far from being the most toxic . Maybe the most elitist
    • rootsudo 6y ago
      Both sides on the spectrum are on the same thing.
    • zo1 6y ago
      I think the title of most toxic should go to Twitter.
• Town0 6y ago
  Don't apologize.
• macspoofing 6y ago
  I'm not sure apologizing publicly has made anything better for any individual, especially in the current moral panic climate. Mobs don't accept apologies. Public apologies stamp official guilt on the individual and therefore serve as a license for the mob to further punish them because now they have admitted their fault and therefore are 'officially' guilty of the crime. Public apologies, therefore, are the metaphorical equivalent of blood in the water for attracting sharks. Maybe it's better to just ignore and maintain innocence because then at least there is some gray area? I don't know.
  • Pryde 6y ago
    Surely with regards to outcomes, there's a good argument to be made that one shouldn't admit guilt. But from a more, idk idealistic perspective, the world would be a better place if everyone promptly admitted fault and committed to doing better? I personally quite liked the advice given, and wish I had held myself to it more often in the past. I think there's definitely some truth to what you're saying, but I also wonder how much this is a problem offline, I've not encountered it heavily, but I'm also not a particularly online person.
    • macspoofing 6y ago
      >But from a more, idk idealistic perspective, the world would be a better place if everyone promptly admitted fault and committed to doing better? I'm not sure about that. I think there needs to be a distinction between a private apology to specific individuals for specific wrongs vs public apology to an undefined amorphous set of people. The former is certainly the right thing to do and it also offers hope of redemption because the wronged individual can accept the apology and forgive (or not). In the latter case, there is no acceptance, there's only the mob who wants to make an example of you because they now have 100% proof of your guilt.
      • Pryde 6y ago
        Fortunately I've never found myself in a position of sufficient power/responsibility to have to offer an apology to a group. Is there a balance to be struck between the difficulty the apologizer will undoubtedly face from rage mobs and the consolation some members of the wronged group may feel from the apologizer acknowledging wrongdoing and committing to do better in the future? I don't know that I could blame someone for avoiding a public apology, with the current nature of online harassment, but I think that's a question anyone who finds themselves in such a position should at least ask themselves. And of course, if everyone also adhered to the "What should I do when I see someone else is making a mistake?" section, then the world would be perfect and conflicts would be much more easily resolved.
• ape4 6y ago
  Jeffrey Toobin: "I was fired today by @NewYorker after 27 years as a Staff Writer. I will always love the magazine, will miss my colleagues, and will look forward to reading their work,"
  • ars 6y ago
    Yah, I don't know anything about Jeffrey, but reading about why he was fired - it's not right. Humans make mistakes. Over and over. People need to forgive.
    • shirakawasuna 6y ago
      Just wankin' it in front of your coworkers during a meeting nbd cancel culture run amok! If you aren't okay with me wankin' it in front of you, sweetie, you're not cut out for this business.
  • khazhoux 6y ago
    I think about the worst public mistake I've made, multiply the panic and embarrassment by about 1000x, and that maybe starts to approximate what must have gone through Toobin's mind when he heard his colleagues calling out to him on the Zoom video. First, the confusion -- "why is everyone calling out my name all of the sudden?". Then he shifts his attention back to the conference... "there's no way they saw me". Then "How did they see me!??!?". Then "can I deny this?" Then eventually... "I think my life is ruined." How do you look someone in the eye again, when you know they know? His life over in an instant, all because he misjudged the line-of-sight from his camera (while making the horrible decision to "relax" while on a work call). One slip, and his world collapsed. Most of us skate right up to the edge of disaster on a daily basis, and aren't even aware of it. One distraction and you forget you had something frying in the kitchen; or you crash your car; or you reply-all by mistake; or you bitch about your boss on the team-wide Slack channel instead of the 1:1 channel you thought you were on.
  • shirakawasuna 6y ago
    "Now let me address, in detail, why I was fired..."
• IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
  It's funny to see this just now. I've started contributing quite a bit to Wikidata as part of some work that uses it as a data source, and it's really the first time in more than a decade that I work in an environment where my work gets public scrutiny. Shame is a really strong emotion for me, and I feel terrible when anyone spots a mistake. At one point, I left the site and didn't return for three days because I saw there was a notification for me. Which turned out to be positive feedback. I feel far worse about my own mistakes than about those of others. What I don't get is people doubling down on obvious mistakes. Show some contrition and your standing will net benefit from you screwing something up. Trust me on this: I'm German and we have made that principle semi-official government philosophy. Whenever I see, say, Turkish nationalists deny the Armenian genocide, or Polish wikipedia deleting articles about local anti-semitic incidents, I wonder if they seriously believe their actions won't make them look both guilty and somewhat stupid. Oh, while we're at it: Only by participating have I learnt what a vast enterprise the whole of Wikimedia actually is, and how almost all of it is open to the public. It's the only non-profit organisation at FAANG-scale (except Amazon I guess), and you might want to check out, for example, what Graphana looks like at scale: https://grafana.wikimedia.org/d/000000605/datacenter-global-overview?orgId=1 https://grafana.wikimedia.org/d/000000605/datacenter-global-...
  • shirakawasuna 6y ago
    It's all about context. If you make an honest mistake on, say, WikiData, nobody should jump down your throat. That's not productive and the context is one where some degree of empathy should be expected. It's a commons. And trust me, I know how internet nerds can be on a commons - internet nerds that often get things very wrong in their criticisms but will swear and yell at you while leveling them. That context is important. The goal that I hope we all want to push for a data commons is a productive shared environment. But when it becomes narrative or editorials, now there are very serious political and scholarly issues at work and popular narratives are frequently self-sustaining via institutional norms. You can cite hundreds of documents and publications for a popular liberal (like lib dem) narrative even if it's no better supported than a position published by an esoteric scholar in Maine and win any arguments about which should be included in the definitive encyclopedia entry on the topic and which should be quietly shoved aside. Even disagreements listed in these pages tend to be relatively popular narratives that are not particularly disagreeable to those in power, or have become popular enough despite that opposition and are the exception. Turkish nationalists denying the Armenian genocide on Wikipedia will be drowned out by process: the dominant media and scholarly narratives (which are roughly correct). But what would we see on a page about Evo Morales back in October 2019? Would we not see the repeated dishonest narratives and headlines of the New York Times? In fact, we would: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Evo_Morales&oldid=923888426 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Evo_Morales&oldid.... No contextualization, just the implication that the NYT narratives are a good resource. And here is the closest snapshot in time to that wiki page: https://web.archive.org/web/20191112031842/https://www.nytimes.com/topic/person/evo-morales https://web.archive.org/web/20191112031842/https://www.nytim... In short, mistakes should always be contextualized by the roles of those involved, the goals sought (and hopefully shared), and a desire to get at the truth even if it's uncomfortable.
• egsmi 6y ago
  This only works if all involved accept their initial axiom, "So you've made a mistake and it's public…". In my experience getting consensus from all involved that a mistake has indeed been committed is the very hardest part of the whole process.
• pachico 6y ago
  Don't get me wrong, but, although I might entirely agree with what this page says, it's an opinion (as they state) and I kinda liked the idea that this foundation had no place for opinions. Just thinking out loud...
• alex_young 6y ago
  All solid advice. I would add: If this mistake happens in the business context, commit to a root cause analysis, perform such with all involved parties and stakeholders, use a methodology such as Toyota’s Five Whys, identify areas for improvement, share your report, and resolve issues in a timely manner. The above will not only improve your processes so failures are less likely, it will also demonstrate a commitment to quality and improvement to all observers.
• coward8675309 6y ago
  There are few more odious Internet pass-times than relentlessly harassing someone for some perceived infraction until they give an imperfect apology and then nitpicking until they ritually humiliate themselves exactly according to your wishes. This document is a would-be harasser's checklist for extracting forced confessions and atonement schedules.
  • jerry1979 6y ago
    Modern day struggle sessions!
  • iamdbtoo 6y ago
    I'm curious, what kind of mistake are you envisioning in this scenario? While I do agree with you for some things, some mistakes may actually be severe and need correction in a public forum and it has nothing to do with harassement.
    • textgel 6y ago
      Plenty of easy and obvious ones. Dr Matt Taylor being attacked for an anime shirt is the first that comes to mind.
      • iamdbtoo 6y ago
        I see. So people should not apologize for things they definitely did wrong because of situations where you feel other people have apologized and didn’t need to?
        • textgel 6y ago
          Point out where I said people should never apologise, do it now. You asked. > I'm curious, what kind of mistake are you envisioning in this scenario? In reference to. > harassing someone for some perceived infraction And I just gave you one. But if we're playing the Cathy-Newman so-you're-saying game I notice you have a lot of opposition to free speech posts; what is it about these views historically literally held by Nazis that you find yourself in agreement with?
• Zelphyr 6y ago
  Something that I would include with the apology part (the text may have covered this and I missed it) is that apologies don't have but's. "I'm sorry I funded Wikimedia Antarctica but..." Everything you say after the but negates everything you say before it and now you're only trying to justify your actions. Simply, "I'm sorry I funded Wikimedia Antarctica." and proceed to describe what you learned: "I neglected to look at relevant data before doing so. I see how that affected my thinking and I'm committed to doing that in future deals." I can't stress how much more impactful my apologies have become with people simply by leaving out that "but". Even my relationship with my wife has improved because of it and I've noticed she's started to leave off the "but's" as well, which really makes me appreciate her apologies a whole lot more.
  • maccard 6y ago
    I make an effort to do this too, I've found that it's made me more cynical of apologies on occasion. I almost feel like I'm waiting for a "but".
  • trynewideas 6y ago
    > These elements are required for your acknowledgement to be also valid as apology, see Apology#Which elements should be included in an apology for the details. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Apology#Which_elements_should_be_included_in_an_apology https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Apology#Which_elements_shoul... > When the offender takes full responsibility for one's wrongdoing, a simple statement saying "I am sorry." may help build the trust. This is particularly true if there is a story of good relationship with the offender; In most cases however, it will be insufficient. It doesn't explicitly address "I'm sorry, but..." phrasing, but does suggest limiting apologies to specifically acknowledging what was done (and the pain it caused), accepting responsibility, and expressing regret.
  • JackFr 6y ago
    My wife and I follow that and have tried to teach it to our kids. An apology with a ‘but’ isn’t an apology. Two more worth thinking about: Explain vs. excuse. While your feelings and justifications may explain your bad behavior they do not excuse it. Not your fault, but still your problem. The (wrong) idea that an unexpected circumstance can excuse bad behavior, because it’s not your fault.
• draw_down 6y ago
  > Understand that there is no point in pretending you have not made a mistake; pretending you have not made a mistake will make you look bad. Look bad to whom? The interests of the public and the person who made the mistake are not necessarily aligned. Fortunately or unfortunately, sometimes not saying anything may be the best move for the person who made the mistake. Is this guide written for the benefit of those who have made a mistake, or the people who seek maximum prostration after a mistake is made? In other words, maybe you don't like reading "non-apology apologies", but if it's the best move for someone in a given scenario, then it's what they should do. Perhaps they need to say something to keep their job, or avoid triggering some unsavory clause in a contract somewhere, but they don't care about "looking bad" (optics). It's certainly an unforced error to admit to more than circumstances require you to- if "mistakes were made" gets you where you need to go, then no point in bringing out the whole song and dance, right?
• GCA10 6y ago
  Step 0 is admirable. I've come across business cultures where people got ahead (really!) by "outrunning their mistakes." Lots of rapid promotions and job transfers, leaving messes behind them -- and then blaming problems on their inept successors, or other saboteurs, etc. No accepting of responsibility. Most of those places eventually go bust, but they can ruin a lot of people's lives before the final collapse happens. Step 3.2 feels forced and a little Orwellian. Even something as hazy as invoking "bad judgment" -- and leaving the scene -- is often sufficient, at least at first. If errant people need a bit more time to process reality's sudden slap in the face, I'm in favor of giving it to them. Eventually a lot of them do reach a fuller understanding. Or they redeem themselves in other ways. In the right settings, a little bit of mercy can be very powerful
• f38zf5vdt 6y ago
  What's a mistake?
• polote 6y ago
  I find this very funny. You have made a mistake? then starts this algorithm and you are all done ! > that you are sorry about the harm/damage/waste/confusion your mistake caused (being specific would demonstrate understanding); I have big problem with apologizes, you don't owe apologies because you made a mistake, apologizing will not change anything, you can easily not feel the apologies you are making.
• ggm 6y ago
  The form of words of an apology is extremely important. The worst form (in my personal opinion) is the qualified apology as in IF I have offended I apologize. It questions the need, it implies that its open to doubt. I apologize unreservedly is far better.
  • eplanit 6y ago
    The doubt is sometimes valid, as it might not seem (or in fact be) reasonable for the offended party to be offended. If person A says something that person B takes offense at, but person A had no intention of being offensive, _and_ it is not obvious (or rational) why B is offended, then it makes sense to offer "if what I said offended you, I apologize". That's polite and considerate.
    • ggm 6y ago
      For me, it's the least acceptable level, it's lowest common denominator least-worst choice. In public life, it has become the first choice goto form. I believe its driven by two forces: lawyer and insurance company "never concede" drives, which are at best asocial, and an underlying belief on the part of the apologist they did no wrong. If an apology is genuine, heartfelt, it requires no qualifications. If it is qualified something is not reconciled. I agree that in hypothesis, an issue could be moot or open, but do you really think this predominates? I am by the way a serial offender and a serial apologiser. I know from bitter experience how hard it can be to accept fault and apologise for hurt caused.
• ExcavateGrandMa 6y ago
  Wait what did I do?
• screye 6y ago
  In the age of social media I would suggest a different approach to addressing public mistakes. 1. Go silent. > Complete public blackout. No denying, no accepting. The people want retribution, not justice. The media blackout is essential. 2. Reflect on it privately and quietly. 3. If not in violation of #1, apologize to the individual people/entity affected in private. 4. Once the mob dissipates, address the issue publically in long form. > It is very important that it be a boring, long and solemn take on the mistake. Blog, interview, podcast, whatever. 5. Don't blame. period. 6. Set a roadmap to rehabilitation/mitigation. 7. Actually follow #6
  • simonebrunozzi 6y ago
    This is a really great list.
  • mcguire 6y ago
    * Step 3 is probably a bad idea, if any attention is being paid to "the individual people/entity affected". * Step 4b is a bad idea; it has too great a possibility of re-raising the issue. * Steps 5, 6, and 7 are completely optional and probably not recommended. If Step 4a worked, keep in mind that the strategy you have got you where you are. * Given the above, Step 2 is a waste of time. This message brought to you by the International Society of Misanthropes.
    • nicoburns 6y ago
      Step 6 and 7 are absolutely crucial. People not accepting blame (even privately to themselves) and never changing is even worse than people aggressively and publicly demanding apologies for wrongdoing.
      • fairity 6y ago
        Crucial to who? GP is outlining a roadmap in the best interest of the accused.
        • nicoburns 6y ago
• secondcoming 6y ago
  Step 3 seems a bit much. What sort of mistakes are we talking about here that seem to require such hyperbolic displays of repentance?
  • moduspol 6y ago
    A tweet from ten years ago that was perfectly reasonable at the time?
• hizxy 6y ago
  Understand why you made the mistake and move on. Admitting your mistake publicly? Maybe..
• samatman 6y ago
  So this one time, our main customer database fell over. The primary key wasn't wide enough, we hit 2 billion rows, and everyone panicked. We had been working unwise hours for several days, and we got the fix together, and I made a mistake: I pushed it directly to production. Man, my boss was really mad; no one had been getting enough sleep and we were all stressed. I apologized profusely and said it would never happen again. Fortunately, the fix was correct, so this could have been worse. Ok. Do you notice what's missing from this story? We never addressed the flaw in our deployment which made it possible to push to prod without passing test. Apologies are for when you harm others. Some mistakes do, and some don't. A blanket policy that a mistake is an occasion for apology and navel-gazing is culturally harmful, because it casts mistakes as personal failings, when they are frequently the result of institutional or procedural shortcomings which can and should be addressed.
  • mcguire 6y ago
    Is there any point in addressing the "mistake" if no one has the need to take responsibility for it?
    • grayclhn 6y ago
      Yes, 100%. In the parent's example the system should be fixed so that no one can push directly to prod. Failing that, some sort of standardized checklist/process should be put in place. That's true regardless of who personally pushed something they shouldn't, and would be true even if no one ever made that "mistake."
    • jjk166 6y ago
      Life is full of situations where no one acted unreasonably but something undesirable still happened. It's especially common for no one to see a potential problem, and thus for no one to be assigned the responsibility of dealing with that problem. If you have any stake in the overall success of the team, it doesn't matter whose fault something is, you just want the problem fixed.
  • shirakawasuna 6y ago
    Something important about that situation is the power dynamic. You were not in a position of power, your boss was, and you were looking to defuse the situation and take ownership of a mistake. Your point is correct - there was a systematic failure at multiple levels of the operation that led to this being possible and even likely (too many hours, bad practices). In such a situation, multiple mistakes were made. If that work culture could somehow support honest, open, and humble approaches to understanding the problem, there would be multiple people either apologizing or, better, taking ownership of their contributions and working towards preventing them in the future (the thing you identify that did not happen). Such a culture is, unfortunately, very unlikely due to the incentive structures of company hierarchy. The role and power of the individual for whom we're setting these expectations is very important and it's very unhelpful that this isn't considered either in that wiki page or in so many comments (not yours, yours is good). Is the person that made a mistake very powerful and do they have a PR team? Their approach will probably be purely cynical. Is it a company? We should stop anthropomorphizing companies. Is it a junior colleague? Was it truly a personal error on their part or higher up or systemic? Was it a manager harming an employee? On a moral and societal level, we have to consider those harms and whether owning a mistake and apologizing is desirable or even sufficient - perhaps they should just be fired or we should consider their actions to be a crime. Or maybe "we" in this scenario is again PR thinking intended to protect the company, in which case the apology is carefully wordsmithed to avoid liability and has no real value.
• k__ 6y ago
  The problem is, you aren't absolutely wrong, so you only made a mistake for a specific group of people. Look at JK Rowling. Would many people say that she made many public mistakes? Sure. Does she care? Probably not. Why? Because she thinks she does the right thing and many people think the same.
• ppur 6y ago
  Also see: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Apology https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Apology Covers the apology "step" in detail and treats it as "a form of ritual exchange between both parties, where words are said that allow reconciliation".
• textgel 6y ago
  I think a major point missing in amongst the discussion so far, and one that's causing a lot of crosstalk is whether you should even be apologising at all. For example. Progressives are widely known for their enthusiastic use of forcing people into public apologies for perceived crimes against the faith or for not acquiescing to unreasonable demands which can then be framed as a perceived wrong. I think a lot of the kickback against apologising that we're seeing is coming from the numerous public examples of this tactic and the follow-up where any good-faith apology will be used to make a further example of the heretic. If you are dealing with this kind of thing then the tactic of take-cover and let the storm pass seems sane (pearls before swine etc). But if you're actually dealing with a genuine person or group who you've genuinely wronged then a real apology is warranted. One other thing I'd add; if you have wronged someone and you've apologised and made genuine efforts to make amends. While it is on the other person to decide whether or not they will accept/forgive, it is not a requirement to indefinitely debase/lower yourself in the pursuit of obtaining their forgiveness. You can make efforts up to a point but you are not required to destroy yourself until they grant it. If the situation is unsalvageable then that's what it is. For studys sake on how this can get out of control, there are numerous examples of shitty parents holding a past wrong over a childs head indefinitely in the raised-by-narcissists subreddit which illustrate the tactic in use by malicious types there.
  • oarabbus_ 6y ago
    > Progressives are widely known for their enthusiastic use of forcing people into public apologies for perceived crimes against the faith or for not acquiescing to unreasonable demands which can then be framed as a perceived wrong. I think a lot of the kickback against apologising that we're seeing is coming from the numerous public examples of this tactic and the follow-up where any good-faith apology will be used to make a further example of the heretic. Well said. It's just a big witch hunt. If you don't apologize, you're in the wrong; if you do apologize, clearly you are a bad person because you were in the wrong, and the onus is now on you to demonstrate you're no longer that "bad" person. It's guilty until proven innocent and either way you lose. Not to mention how many of these witch hunters have never said or done anything wrong themselves, ever? If you're a saint, then sure, by all means call out people for their wrong doings. But I have a hunch that 99% of progressives would be EXTREMELY uncomfortable if someone said they were going to pull every tweet, post, interview, statement, etc that they'd ever made and scrutinize them for harmful statements. Finally, it's completely biased and partisan. The most famous example is Alyssa Milano, who really brought the Me Too movement to the spotlight, defending Joe Biden because he was "a good man". If you're not their friend, you don't get the same benefit of the doubt. The hypocrisy is unbearable.
• troelsSteegin 6y ago
  Not all the mistakes are the same, no? I assume the focus here is factual inaccuracy, and the proximal cause of that is not following a rigorous sourcing and fact checking process. But the advice here also relates to mistakes of interaction - unsuccessful collaborations on a page, or non collegial communication. Hurting someone's feelings is different than a reporting error. Apologize or correct, right? Are there more flavors of mistake, and courses of action?
• bhk 6y ago
  Does anyone here work in an environment where every mistake warrants public shaming? Sounds like a hostile environment to me. What am I missing?
• ineedasername 6y ago
  This happens at work to everyone at some point. I've learned that dealing with it boils down to about the same as the linked article, but much shorter: --take responsibility --explain how it happened --explain the steps you're taking to prevent it in the future. (Luckily this final step has never been an issue for me, but: if it keeps happening, or you have to repeat this process too many times for different issues, prepare a resume and pursue some strong "professional development")
• DoreenMichele 6y ago
  I don't know. Years ago, I was on an email list and I did a lot of sincere public apologizing, in part because the internet was younger, so we didn't have a lot of stuff worked out. We were just stumbling our way forward as best we could. And the end result was that I became everyone's bitch. People would intentionally pick on me and be ugly to me and when it went sideways, the group as a whole would go "There she goes again!" and blame the whole thing on me and expect me to apologize and kiss everyone's ass. I am much less free with public apologies than I used to be, though I am still equally willing to own my actions (a la "I did x. That didn't turn out well.") There are some people in the world just looking for someone to blame and if they get it stuck in their warped tiny little minds for some reason that you are a good person to blame, good luck escaping their shit. Such people are a case of "The only winning move is not to play." and, unfortunately, you tend to find that out after the fact because they have burned you and will not stop burning you, no matter how above-board, high-minded blah blah blah you handle the situation. Some people are just hell-bent on proving "No one is actually that good" because they have baggage, so trying to do the right thing consistently just makes you a target of their shit and they really need therapy, but aren't getting it. Such people seem to be rather poor at letting things go and my impression is some of them will cyberstalk you for years after you try to leave whatever situation originally put you in contact with them. (Edit: No, this wasn't about my gender. This detail has already been addressed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25087829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25087829)
  • herodoturtle 6y ago
    Do you keep a blog? Find your comments interesting.
    • DoreenMichele 6y ago
      I run a bunch of different websites. You are probably being downvoted because my profile contains links to a variety of things by me, including my Patreon (which needs to be updated -- note to self: Put that on a To Do list somewhere for, say, next week-ish/before the end of November).
  • kbenson 6y ago
• joduplessis 6y ago
  I always remember this very old adage: don't be a dick. Sooner or later we all make mistakes, but very important to remember that if you're the one holding the pitchfork - your turn might be up next. So, be kind. And if you're the one making the mistake: figure out what/why/how. And try again.
• miguelmota 6y ago
  The wiki article reads a lot like what we do in software engineering post-mortems; timeline of events, what went wrong, why it went wrong, how it was addressed, what will be done to prevent it in the future.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• laughinghan 6y ago
  The number of people in this thread arguing that apologies can only make things worse is shocking. Are these the same people who reject addressing war crimes with truth and reconciliation, and instead advocate "deny everything, make counteraccusations"? A proper apology—one that (1) acknowledges the specific harm caused, (2) acknowledges responsibility and remorse for specific choices, (3) explains how they hope to make amends specifically to the aggrieved party—seems to me to be self-evidently the only possible way to heal a community. Doubtless many people have delivered "apologies" that omitted one of those elements, or even all 3 elements ("I apologize if anyone felt offended"), and thereby made things worse for themselves. But to me it is self-evidently corrosive to a community and to a person's ego to adopt a practice of refusing to acknowledge mistakes. For an example of the good that can come from a proper apology for a serious harm, consider Dan Harmon's apology to Megan Ganz: https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/1/11/16879702/dan-harmon-apology-megan-ganz-community https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/1/11/16879702/dan-harmon-ap...
  • justatdotin 6y ago
    IMO 'truth and reconciliation' should just focus on 'truth'. We don't owe war criminals reconciliation, but they owe us the truth.
    • laughinghan 6y ago
      To clarify, the important thing about "reconciliation" is not about reconciling with war criminals, but about reconciling with supporters of war criminals, which are usually a pretty significant portion (sometimes the overwhelming majority) of the civilian population of the region or community that the war criminal is from. Often, those supporters have been on the receiving end of pretty serious hardships themselves. That doesn't justify supporting war crimes, of course, but if you don't acknowledge those hardships, you create resentment and the seeds of future strife, rather than healing.
      • justatdotin 6y ago
        fair call, I know how that applies to collaborators from within targeted communities, but I've also seen it wrongfully directed towards oppressors who never knew good relations with their subjects: we can't 'reconcile' if we never were friends.
• neilv 6y ago
  Not for public situations, but internally, and proactively... For my startups's new engineering hiring process, I recently wrote the boilerplate part of the email I send when requesting a first Jitsi/phone technical meeting, after a prospective team member has passed the initial meeting with the CEO. Part of this is to tell them the purpose and format of this meeting (e.g., no surprise coding test, start to get a sense of each others' abilities and what it'd be like to work together). But then the majority of the text is to convey the culture we're going for, and the professional mode it's safe to be in for the interview (which is different than some other places, and than some standard advice). I'm shooting for the engineering&ops culture to be what I call in the boilerplate "honest and earnest". And that it's safe and encouraged in this culture to say "I don't know", "that's a problem", "I made a mistake", "I need help", etc. And that it's safe and encouraged to be in this mode in the interview, as well (and I will be, too). In work (and in the interviews), I absolutely don't want people thinking they should be posturing or cultivating social media-like distorted images, avoiding pointing out system problems, getting into conflict of interest situations with personal career advancement vs. the interests of the team and our work, etc. I'm sure we'll refine this over time, but I believe that an honest&earnest culture avoids a lot of problems around mistakes, including helping to avoid mistakes in the first place, and avoiding compounding them when they do happen.
• jzer0cool 6y ago
  This is a nice outline for making one's own mistake. How do you all approach telling another when another are making a mistake? Usually the other person may get defensive or a conflict may arise.
• aaron695 6y ago
  > that you are sorry about the harm/damage/waste/confusion your mistake caused (being specific would demonstrate understanding); No. You are allowed to make mistakes. You don't have to default to sorry. This is allowing the mob to own you. To an extent they do, so maybe to have to let them bully you. But try and resist. Sometimes you will be sorry and sometimes pretending to be sorry will get you something you want. But it should be your choice.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• harryf 6y ago
  Sorry but this is utter bullshit. In the toxic melting pot that is today’s public opinion, the lesson learned is never admit you’re wrong EVER. The moment you publicly express remorse you are done. The master of this is Ricky Gervais eg https://youtu.be/uEawbnXaIDs https://youtu.be/uEawbnXaIDs No one will care of remember whether you found some way to apologize. The only thing groupthink will remember is whether you could be intimidated or not. If you can’t be intimidated groupthink will quickly grow bored of you.
  • scubbo 6y ago
    Imagine thinking that Ricky Gervais is an admirable human being.
• tmaly 6y ago
  Mistakes are a great thinking tool. They can help navigate the unknown. We should be embracing them more to do greater things.
• ropable 6y ago
  Remember, team: just as there is infinite variation in the severity of mistakes, so there is infinite variation in the methods and appropriateness of apology that can/should/might be made. The post is a decent framework, not a prescription for all situations.
• Const-me 6y ago
  > So you've made a mistake and it's public People make mistakes. Not a big deal. > Step 0 Totally agree. > Step 1 The rest of these steps however is complete BS. Here’s generic answers. > What led you to make it? The rest of the data I had on the subject, so far. > Were you acting on bad information? Who precisely rates information as good or bad? > Without sufficient information? Sufficient for what? > Were you pressed by a deadline or by a strong opinion from someone else? None of the above. > Were you following a broken process? No. > Did you act on the basis of circumstances you wish were the case rather than the circumstances that are in fact the case? WTF? And so on.
  • smsm42 6y ago
    > Did you act on the basis of circumstances you wish were the case rather than the circumstances that are in fact the case? This BTW is one of the most common source of mistakes I encounter. When offered choice between A and B, people routinely evaluate A in some ideal situation X which is not real, decide that A does not match this situation very well, and discard it, choosing B - while failing to notice that in real situation B is even further from achieving the desired outcome. Example: we consider building option A and B for a feature of the product, and we know users like feature B much better, so we don't choose option A, even though we have neither resources not budget to actually implement B properly. As a result, we get half-implemented broken B instead of somewhat-less-liked but working A, and the users end up hating the whole thing. Seen it so many times.
• surajs 6y ago
  This is relevant here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_affair
• shirakawasuna 6y ago
  HackerNewsers having a meltdown over the concept of a public apology.
• charliebrownau 6y ago
  WIKI is a joke So much lies, tains and poltical revisionism its no longer a trusted source, just like 99% of western mainstram
• darkerside 6y ago
  This presupposes a very important thing, which is, how do you define a mistake? Is it a decision that other people are unhappy with, even if you still think it was right? That you yourself are unhappy with, even if others approve? What if you've made a decision with mixed results, bad and good? Was that a mistake? A partial mistake? Are "mistakes" on a gradient, and if so, is there a tipping point at which you follow the outlined procedure?
• dosman33 6y ago
  They forgot to mention the part where the goal posts get moved and you have to keep apologizing each time this happens. You may find yourself running out of rope as you are pushed further and further out until you don't have much left to give. Modesty and realizing you've made a mistake are good qualities, no doubt. But those traits will be used against you if you foolishly think others will be also acting in good faith when they publicly point out your mistake. If you wish to publicly apologize that's fine, but don't for a second fall for the notion that this will appease the mob. They want blood when they smell it in the water and each apology just squirts more blood into the water for them to feed off of.
• dingoegret 6y ago
  This is terrible advice. The advice presupposes that indignant people are reasonable, fair, forgiving (and frankly, gullible). If you bend over to a mob that is out to get you, then you will find out very quickly how cruel people can become. You will find out that human beings, within angry group dynamics, simply revert back to primitiveness in these situations. It's like dealing with a pack of wolves. Never show weakness. This doesn't get us to a better society but it is what it is.
• ck2 6y ago
  it's all good advice but just want to point out the "leader of the free world" doesn't follow any of this and well, job title so apparently it's not the only "solution" as it looks like doubling down also works
• baby 6y ago
  Interestingly in the book Rage there is 10 pages of Bob telling Trump again and again that he should have apologized about the quiproquo and things would have been fine. Trump refuses to see it this way, and I’m inclined to believe that maybe Trump is right. From a sociology point of view things might be better if you deny instead of apologizing. I’m now wondering if the same could be true in a relationship, although social dynamics work differently at different scales.
• legends2k 6y ago
  It's sad to see such write ups since it's these that give people who don't mean the apology look like they do since they follow this template/algorithm. Let it be original when you apologize, let it come from you with all your perfections and imperfections. Let the world come to term with the real you and your explanation on _your actions_.
• known 6y ago
  Trump's political party affiliation changed numerous times. He registered as a Republican in Manhattan in 1987, switched to the Reform Party in 1999, the Democratic Party in 2001, and back to the Republican Party in 2009 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump I am not sure Trump will follow https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_and_it%27s_public https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/So_you%27ve_made_a_mistake_a......
• jackcosgrove 6y ago
  Can't say I agree with this. The internet enables anonymous bullying on a never-before-seen scale. It also enables anonymous ghosting as a defense against the bullies. Generally when you make a mistake on the internet the best course of action is to just move on.
• audiodude 6y ago
  See Also: Apology
• kiwiandroiddev 6y ago
  I think there's a step missing before step 0: first be sure that you've actually made a mistake. And don't assume that the existence of an angry internet mob is any evidence of a mistake on your part. Perhaps it's best to talk things through with a trusted friend/adviser first.
• loup-vaillant 6y ago
  I made such a mistake over 3 years ago. Only found about it 2 years ago. Mostly, I was acting on insufficient information, and a bit of intuition. I identified the kind of error I made, noted what I had to do to avoid a repeat —which never happened since. I fixed then admitted the mistake, a couple days after finding it. It's standard procedure. I could have swept it under the rug, though I never considered it. There wasn't much drama then. Just some mockery I wasn't even aware of (I didn't follow Twitter). I learned of it one year later, when some institution "awarded" the worst mistakes (they wrote pretty funny piece). > Yes, there may be some drama, in the short term. It was the only mistake of any consequence I've made in over 4 years working in this domain. Yet some people still use that one error to publicly question my competence and my ethics. As if they didn't realise the perverse incentives that results from punishing honest disclosure.
  • jonfromsf 6y ago
    They don't care about the perverse incentives. In general people don't care about "society", they care about their own situation. If they can stunt on you and get some social points out of it they will do so.
• LockAndLol 6y ago
  That's good advice for a world without bored people looking for entertainment in the form of other people's misery. In this current world, people will send you death threats for releasing a game too late. You'll get doxxed for an unpopular opinion and you'll be beheaded for showing a picture of a person. It feels like saying you were wrong will only put fuel onto t he fire. But I can only hope I'm wrong.
• cannabis_sam 6y ago
  “I neglected to look at relevant data before deciding to fund Wikimedia Antarctica” This seems unreasonably sane, compared to actual real-life investors. I think it would be a lot more impactful with a mistake that wasn’t endemic to the relevant profession. How about: “I failed to realize that economics is a social science, and treated it as a field of mathematics”..?