37 ms·

Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

• just-juan-post 6y ago
  How does one tactfully determine what percentage of a company is Indian?
  • coopsmgoops 6y ago
    Names possibly? I'm purely speculating here, but since India has such a huge population anyone with a indianesque name is probably Indian. Especially if it's the case that muslims from pakistan have distinct names. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    • nsenifty 6y ago
      Name is not a reliable indicator of caste for all Indians. A large portion of South Indians don't have a surname - they just use their dad's first name or the name of their hometown. Even among North Indians who do have a caste-based surname, many ditch that in favor of something like "Kumar".
  • dbuder 6y ago
    DNA tests before interviews. You think I'm joking, but that is where all this is headed - the Oscars thing opened the door further, got to make sure you meet the quota - people don't always know what their true ancestry is, how can the employer be sure they are hiring enough people with enough of the "right" race without hard evidence?
  • aikinai 6y ago
    It looks like that part of the article is just a made up number. The real content is about a specific case of post-hiring discrimination. If there were a source for the 90% figure, that would be a totally separate issue with different causes and different considerations.
• OneGuy123 6y ago
  It's funny how this is NEVER mentioned in the media. I guess BLM is "so hot" right now (but to be honest this caste issue was never mention even before BLM also). Perhaps this is because in the West this concepts of casts within society is completely foreign to us. So for a Westerner this does not create any acute psychological response if someone says "I'm a Dalit". A westerner would be like "huh, yeah ok man, I have no idea what that is." So in the mind of a westerner this "he's a Dalit" doesn't create any associations by which he would judge this person because the concept of "casts" is so foreign to us. This is also why we ignore it + westerners are not affected by this system as it applies only to Indians. I did hear stories though that the upper cast Indians in a managerial position onyl hire other upper cast Indiands and keep whites because "they know they perform". But upper cast indians still severely favourite their own vs whites for example. I guess you could say that their "you're a Dalit gtfo" is the same as someone in the west says "you're black gtfo".
  • ponker 6y ago
    It can't be anything to do with the fact that the US is ~0.05% Dalit and 13% black.
  • lazyeye 6y ago
    Its entirely predictable that the media wouldnt report on this. I have nothing but contempt for both big tech and the media.
  • neither_color 6y ago
    It might come up more now that a descendant of upper caste Indians is campaigning for Vice President.
  • eesmith 6y ago
    Bear in mind that "African American activists helped created South Asian America as we know it." - https://blackdesisecrethistory.org/ https://blackdesisecrethistory.org/ , and high-social status of Asian-Americans who immigrated after the racist National Origins Formula was replaced in 1965 with a policy which emphasized professionals and other individuals with specialized skills is used as a wedge to attempt to break that solidarity. So if it's taken so long for BLM to be "so hot", perhaps it's not so surprising that an awareness of caste discrimination in the US lags? Some people say "I don't see race" as of it's a good thing. (See https://www.oprahmag.com/life/relationships-love/a32824297/color-blind-myth-racism/ https://www.oprahmag.com/life/relationships-love/a32824297/c... and https://theconversation.com/i-dont-see-race-and-other-white-lies-99979 https://theconversation.com/i-dont-see-race-and-other-white-... for two of a myriad of articles on the topic.) Most people in the US really don't see caste, because they don't have the training or experience, and therefore also don't really see caste discrimination. I think this shows a downside of "not seeing" bigotry.
• happysnail 6y ago
  Culture and social structures are very hard to change once they take hold...
  • pogorniy 6y ago
    They are very easy to change because people are hude conformists. See how our behaviour changed in recent timed due to corona. Or example of nazi germany. Problem is that those who benefit from social structure does not want the change, and are working on keeping status quo.
• cheph 6y ago
  > It may seem bizarre that the caste system, a centuries-old system that organises and stratifies human society, continues to play a heavy role in deciding which Indians prosper and which don't within a space many consider to be an uber-meritocracy -- the US tech landscape. Well for I'm not surprised, and further I doubt anybody in it considers it an "uber-meritocracy", it really is much more perverse.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • mcv 6y ago
    Yeah, that the tech industry is a meritocracy is a myth that's popular with the white educated middle-class men who like to believe they have more merit than other groups. (I'm a white educated middle-class man myself, and a career in the tech world has been easy and natural for me. I'd love to believe it's because I'm really that good, but I try to be aware of my privilege.)
    • rational_indian 6y ago
      Don't be too hard on yourself! I am Indian and from what I can tell the proverbial glass ceiling has been lifted for brown people like me in the US. And I think the same can be said for people of other ethnicities as well. So credit where credit is due. IMHO the US is a meritocratic workplace.
    • cheph 6y ago
      > Yeah, that the tech industry is a meritocracy is a myth that's popular with the white educated middle-class men who like to believe they have more merit than other groups. Dunno about all of that ... I myself am not sufficently race obsessed I guess. What I meant was that in most cases people get ahead for reasons that have little to nothing to do with merit, and in my experience also that have little to nothing to do with race. Maybe if you find yourself constantly surrounded by racists you should evaluate how your choices contribute to this. I don't have this experience. And I'm pretty sure there would be some legal implications for what you claim, so if you are aware of this and not reporting it I'm pretty sure you face potential legal liabilities. I think it is pretty disgusting that people just look the other way while they witness racism. If I ever saw anything at my place of work that would suggest any racism in hiring choices the person would not make it to the end of the day.
• tuckfrump666 6y ago
  I am sure this moron went around and asked every single Indian their caste. Its a shitpost.
  • neilsense 6y ago
    It's lazy but, as you can't say things about blacks, muslims, jews, or latinx; Indians are an easy, quiet, target in the West.
• eesmith 6y ago
  Cisco HR said "caste discrimination was not unlawful". Doesn't California's Unruh Civil Rights Act prohibit employment discrimination in a businesses based on ancestry, especially given the CA Supreme Court's repeated determination that the list of protected classes should be interpreted broadly? So why wouldn't caste discrimination be illegal under that law?
  • corty 6y ago
    Probably because HR/legal didn't want to make a fuss and interpreted narrowly for that reason.
• krageon 6y ago
  This article is almost a caricature of articles like itself. What makes this interesting to people? Is it because it's so over the top with bad tropes it becomes funny?
  • corty 6y ago
    I guess it is because people often forget that there are downsides to diversity: You are importing foreign cultures that you do not understand and are legally/organisationally unprepared for. The article is interesting because it provides a contrast to the common refrain of "diversity good" and "other cultures provide benefits". There is often a lack of balance and nuance in reporting imho, and this kind of article provides at least a little of the opposing view.
    • krageon 6y ago
      I think as a society we are plenty prepared to say "it is not right to discriminate based on who your parents were or where you were born". Not doing so is a choice (to wit, the wrong choice).
    • raxxorrax 6y ago
      I don't like diversity/inclusion pushed down my throat either and I think people are actually two steps in front of institutions promoting it the strongest, but the intersecting economic problems are similar all over the world. Hinduism and its caste system seem alien to most western people, but the "you should know your place, peasant" - argument is pretty similar in some interpretations in Abrahamic religions. But sure, some cultures have their own peculiarities and I think not being apart of religious communities is still very rare in India.
  • empressplay 6y ago
    No, it's interesting because this whole caste thing is _horrifying_ to any sort of egalitarian - eg _almost everyone in tech_
    • krageon 6y ago
• thor24 6y ago
  It boils my blood reading something like this. A man who worked has worked for 20 yrs, paid taxes, provided for his family (in US and back home) has to suffer this much humiliation. Compound this with the fact the person must be (most likely) on his H1B so can't leave his job and prepare for another one in peace because 2 month window is a short one to find a job. If there is some karma in this world I hope Iyer/other guy gets it.
  • DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
    > 2 month window As a former H1-B myself, I thought the "2 month window" was a very unofficial grace-period and actually, de-jure, you're ostensibly meant to leave the US immediately (literally, the same day) and only return when a new sponsor agrees to take you on.
    • ponker 6y ago
      President Obama formalized the 2 month window.
      • jacquesm 6y ago
        Let's not give anybody ideas for some destructive action now because there is a name attached to this.
        • ponker 6y ago
          Good point, USCIS formalized the two month window in 2016.
    • thor24 6y ago
      for L1 it's one week so practically instantaneous.
  • focus2020 6y ago
    > A man who worked has worked for 20 yrs, paid taxes, provided for his family (in US and back home) ... You don't understand what you have taken for granted. In the name of hindu religion, citing the vedas education has been denied to all non-brahmins(other than priestly caste) until Britishers arrived. This is the reason majority of the indians are first college goers in their family. For us what you described is the definition of heaven.
• LatteLazy 6y ago
  The core issue in market heavy economies is that people with money make money and everyone else doesn't. Being smart and hard working and having poor parents means you will be poor. Being dumb and lazy with rich parents means you will be rich. Maybe with 3 or 4 full generations of nothing but hard work and luck you might make it up from working to middle class. Maybe. This is never really discussed directly. Only using a proxy like race or caste.
  • harshitaneja 6y ago
    We discuss these directly as social and financial mobility.
  • k__ 6y ago
    This. "Oh look at those poor backward indians!!" Well, most of the rich people I know had rich parents. If you can live with your parents while building your company or they gift you a few thousand dollars, that's often the make or break factor that saves your ass when pivoting a few times.
    • goldcd 6y ago
      I've always thought it's that last point you touch on, that's most important. There are mechanisms (and we can discuss their effectiveness) that try to balance the playing field in provision of opportunity - but there's a huge gap in "provision to cope with failure" e.g. Two people graduate with equal abilities and are offered an opportunity to found a start-up. One of those people knows his parents can cover rent/food if things don't go to plan, and the other will be homeless (or maybe more likely would have accumulate personal debt, or leave the city and move back to parents). One of those people is more likely to be able to take that risk and therefore more likely to reap a reward. I'm not even sure I can think of a fair way to level this.
      • nicoburns 6y ago
        > I'm not even sure I can think of a fair way to level this. The only way is to reduce the pre-existing wealth inequality. Which is why a lot of people are in favour of strongly progressive taxation.
• DarkWiiPlayer 6y ago
  > Except, this time, it is happening in the US tech industry, a place that people normally associate with egalitarianism and a thirst for talent regardless of colour, race, religion, or any other creed. In what universe?
• roenxi 6y ago
  This article appears to be about a current lawsuit. The claims that are being made are outrageous, but that is what is expected of a plaintiffs claims in this sort of lawsuit. I doubt I'll make many friends adding this in, but an uncomfortable statistical artefact of an affirmative action program is the candidates in that program are very likely going to have lower average competence than the rest of the cohort. That observation in particular was (1) probably not acceptable in the workplace and (2) possibly justifiable depending on how serious the affirmative action policies were. The statistical results around an affective action program are all actually pretty brutal, both to the people in the program and the people who aren't. I forget where to find a good link, but it is related to my favourite stats paradox, Simpson's paradox. They are not a tool people should want to use.
  • deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  • pjc50 6y ago
    This is nothing to do with affirmative action, you've just brought that in for your own purposes. Nobody had any problem with his performance until the discriminatory boss was hired.
  • thereare5lights 6y ago
    Wtf? How is affirmative action relevant in this context?
    • roenxi 6y ago
      > The lawsuit alleges that the upper-caste Iyer recognised John Doe and instantly began ridiculing him in front of all the other higher-caste Indian employees at Cisco, saying that John Doe was a Dalit and only got into the engineering school because of affirmative action, which India implemented in 1980 under the then-Prime Minister VP Singh. If they believed that, it would also explain the other things like lack of opportunities and low wages too.
• pogorniy 6y ago
  Casts is institutionalized poverty trap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_poverty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycle_of_poverty. Good reading in this context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unequal_Childhoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unequal_Childhoods
• 7171u 6y ago
  Majority of them are privileged right wing bigots who despise Muslims and lower-caste to the core. No wonder Modi and Trump is so popular among Indian expats in US.
  • robertlagrant 6y ago
    > Majority of them are privileged right wing bigots That's amazing that you've met the majority of them. Did you write it up?
  • dang 6y ago
    Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. We're trying to avoid that here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
• racistthrowaway 6y ago
  If this is real, it's purely brown-on-brown crime because non-indians have no idea wtf a caste system is. You all look the same to me. Which leads me to believe that this can't be happening on any systemic level (I did read the article, so yea it does happen but I can't believe that it happens a lot). "Caste-ist" indians simply don't hold enough sway in hiring decisions in the US to make any significant dent. If lower castes are being oppressed, it's only by their own cultural attitudes. Just start making more non-indian friends and assimilate.
  • oaiey 6y ago
    I think the last years should have taught us that just because we do not see it, does not mean we are not responsible for changing it. And recruiting is something where engineers are also involved a lot. They recommend, they rate, they have networks, they may even be part of HR. Just to name some ways. If you get fired (e.g. of your visa protecting job) a well networked person has a lot more chances than someone not.
    • racistthrowaway 6y ago
      The network effects might be real but like I said, it's mostly self-inflicted. You can make friends who are not your race too.
      • oaiey 6y ago
        When I am aware that a High-Caste network or a white-dude network is pushing me their candidates I have to watch for my diversity. Castes or races in the US are very similar in their effects. But I need to take a step back. I am not an expert on it, just rambling my thoughts.
    • C1sc0cat 6y ago
      Well said
• jameson 6y ago
  Could the core problem be related to how majority of Indian couple I know who went through arranged marriage gets married to the same caste? Which is... essentially even though one might say caste is abolished, you know having a higher (or equal) caste still has advantage and favoritism towards alike caste is cultivated (possibly unconsciously, but the story implies deliberately)
• higerordermap 6y ago
  While being wealthier may be a reason, quotas in India are also a reason. I bet for at least 80% of these upper caste Indians have grown up hearing "we upper castes don't get any quota here, we have to study hard [and get high paying tech job and preferably settle abroad]". It is not just the consequence of being wealthier, although that and politics play a role. Among Indians from similar income levels, that makes it unreserved castes people more likely to take up tech / medical sector.
• starchand 6y ago
  No shit Einstein
  • dang 6y ago
    Please don't post unsubstantive comments here.
• triceratops 6y ago
  Is this meant to be a news article or an editorial? The claims in the suit are horrifying and important to report and investigate. The tone is more suited to an opinion piece - and a badly-written one at that. Surely there's better reporting on this topic out there.
  • C1sc0cat 6y ago
    Giving you the benefit of doubt, Its a report of a legal case not Shure what your trying to say here.
    • triceratops 6y ago
      The article's title has "Commentary:" in it. It is an opinion piece, which I failed to spot earlier. I still stand by my assertion that it's not well-written. The difference between a news report and an editorial piece is easy to see once you know the difference. A news report sticks to the facts - who, what, when, where - with little or no commentary. It usually has a summary with all the important points in the first paragraph. A sentence such as "Then, in a tragic double-whammy," or "...you can be assured..." is not appropriate in a news story. See for example https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cisco-lawsuit/california-accuses-cisco-of-job-discrimination-based-on-indian-employees-caste-idUSKBN2423YE https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cisco-lawsuit/california-..., a news article about the same case. The quality of the writing in the article being discussed is also quite poor, with mixed metaphors ("cradle of caste people are disgorged from."), awkward turns of phrase ("serial scale") and even grammatical errors "Their woman and children are".
      • C1sc0cat 6y ago
        Why do you seem to be finding fault here, its a write up of a legal case by a civilian. Pretty normal for non specialist press when writing up a court case note the author is an Indian and may well be using Indian style English, which does diverge from standard English.
        • 6y ago
• varbhat 6y ago
  It is problem of those casteist employees of Cisco , Cisco , it's management and it's rules. They are simply not proper. There are many casteists too in many companies who must be terminated from Employment if casteist behavior is found. Note that not all upper-caste People are casteist and harmful. I also see many Rich People whose ancestors were Dalits, who no longer need any financial grant/food/shelter from the Government claiming it from Government. It only harms very poor Dalits in need. This Casteism at companies is bad and Casteism is crime. Also, the title of this post is Peculiar. Title must not be "90% of Techies are upper caste" as upper caste is not synonymous with casteist. Also,there are many poor,hard working non-casteist people who by birth(not changeable) were upper-caste people who worked hard to get into good job in US,so they deserve that job.
  • screye 6y ago
    > I also see many Rich People whose ancestors were Dalits, who no longer need any financial grant/food/shelter from the Government claiming it from Government. It only harms very poor Dalits in need. This is something I have been thinking quite a lot about. The Govt. really struggles to cap affirmative action to only those who need it. I knew people who were from lower castes, used reservation to get in and had Macbooks, iPhones and spent summers abroad touring. How hard is it to disqualify them due to financial means ? There are too many poor Dalits who would rather use those seats.
    • kyteland 6y ago
      It's a common line of thinking that a system is broken if there's a single instance of failure when the right measure is if it does more good than harm. I've heard that excuse in the US with regards to giving to the poor, "they might waste it on booze and drugs." Well sure, but they might also use it to keep from starving. In this case, are there some people that "don't deserve it"? Certainly, but there's probably many more that do who are making use of the program. Adding overhead and bureaucracy to try to weed out the undeserving may very well make it so fewer people who need the assistance get it. It's human nature to overweight small negative outcomes while underweighting the larger good. You need to objectively study the problem to fully understand where the tipping point is which rarely happens because these types of things quickly become political. I don't personally know enough about this particular topic to speak to it, but the general answer to the question > How hard is it to disqualify them due to financial means? Is it's harder than you think without undermining the original goals of the of the program.
• jerzyt 6y ago
  What's shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US. US is oblivious to this system, very few people have any understanding of this, yet it affects success in the corporate world. Obviously, there's enough Indian presence in the business to influence it, but it's flying under the US corporate culture. I've worked with many Indian coworkers in the tech industry, and now I'm rethinking some of the connections I've observed.
  • barry-cotter 6y ago
    > What's shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US. There are no overseas communities of majority Indian subcontinental origin that maintain rigid caste distinctions. Not even Mauritius which is majority ethnic Indian or Fiji or Guyana where they’re about half the population. Caste will not be maintained in America for the same reason no ethnic group maintains itself without religious endogamy or continuing immigration; People socialize and mate with those they spend time with unless there are powerful reasons not to. All will be assimilated in time.
    • C1sc0cat 6y ago
      Your being naive Caste discrimination does exit in communities overseas in the UK for example.
      • barry-cotter 6y ago
        I believe you. It just doesn’t matter. Once immigration stops these people will all dissolve into the general population like the Huegenots, Flemings or other old ethnic groups. When mass immigration from the subcontinent stops caste based discrimination will go from a lot less than in India/Pakistan/Bangladesh to non-existent in short order.
        • C1sc0cat 6y ago
          That's going to be a long time. Look at northern inland there are places in Ireland and parts of Scotland and even the USA where I would have to be careful as I am a product of a mixed marriage and I also was a a "crown servant for 15 years" and have a southern ie catholic last Name.
• dschuetz 6y ago
  Isn't such cast system a violation of basic human rights regardless if it's institutionalized or not?
  • YetAnotherNick 6y ago
    The world is filled with injustice however you look at it. Here is one hard quote by Buffet: The ovarian lottery is the most important event in which you'll ever participate. It's going to determine way more than what school you go to, how hard you work, all kinds of things. The nation of birth changes your life much more than your effort or intelligence.
  • sreevisakh 6y ago
    Nobody disputes that, including the ones who practice it (well, may be except the most uneducated). The real problem is denialism. The comments to this post itself has numerous examples of that, including anecdotal evidences to downplay the incredible damage it has caused. The practitioners just find other reasons, like job-performance to enforce casteism without directly referring to it.
• karterk 6y ago
  I wanted to offer another perspective for this trend: Many states in India, especially in the South, have affirmative action policies that make it really hard for these people to find good jobs or colleges in India. So they head out and prosper in the US.
  • higerordermap 6y ago
    The attitude is "We don't get any benefit from government here, unlike other castes, we have to study well and settle abroad". That is also expectation from families. The above comment is downvoted, maybe for sounding pro-upper-caste? But the statement is true.
  • boruto 6y ago
    This is the exact reason I moved out. Why would I migrate to foreign land if I feel there would be equal opportunity in India.
• teekert 6y ago
  So... They nicely fit in with the upper-caste Americans. As long as you have a system where you make some "upper-caste" universities so expensive that only upper-caste people can attend them, you will keep the caste system alive. This is why education should not be privatized, there are no equal opportunities within the US as well as in India. It's all about what family you are born into. The whole caste system is also very much alive in the US. Things like good education, crime-free neighborhoods and good healthcare are all for the rich(er). Edit: This: "Except, this time, it is happening in the US tech industry, a place that people normally associate with egalitarianism and a thirst for talent regardless of colour, race, religion, or any other creed." is not really what I associate the tech industry with either. I feel it is is still very white male (like me) dominated.
  • p1necone 6y ago
    The Indian caste system is a specific, fairly regimented thing. Not really the same as the informal structuring of society that we might colloquially refer to as a caste system. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India)
  • higerordermap 6y ago
    In india, caste system doesn't map so clearly to wealth.
  • barry-cotter 6y ago
    Class isn’t caste though they overlap. Caste is unique to the Indian subcontinent as far as I’m aware. It is utterly unremarkable for there to be people of different castes living in the same village whose ancestors have lived in the same area for generations who are as genetically distinct as Swedes and Sardinians. The only thing remotely similar I’m aware of was the Manchu in China. Caste is about maintaining endogamy for over 1,000 years with an average generation having zero out of caste inflow of genes. If you try to understand caste by analogy to class you will fail completely. It is its own thing.
    • Ichthypresbyter 6y ago
• coldtea 6y ago
  Of course, how/when would lower-caste get the opportunies to study and/or immigrate as easily?
  • ThrustVectoring 6y ago
    The article makes basically the same point - over 90% of immigration from India to the United States is of upper class Indians.
• apexalpha 6y ago
  People who are surprised by this have no idea what life looks like for lower class Indians.
• profthrow 6y ago
  Not surprising considering there is 50 % reservation for lower castes inside India. This results much lower cutoffs for government colleges and jobs for lower caste, so upper caste feel the country doesn't respect them and they leave the country. Why work twice or thrice as hard just because your caste is different while most of your taxes goes to benefit rich reserved people? I'd much rather work in a foreign country that everyone equally.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• anu7df 6y ago
  Ok.. I am going to be brave and not going to use a throwaway. I find it perplexing that HN crowd who is usually arguing for a balanced analysis and seeing both viewpoints is suddenly behaving as if this data proves some injustice is currently happening in India as well as US (in the context of Indian caste system). To be clear, India has/had a caste system that was extremely oppressive. Currently though, the social aspects aside, economically and crucially educationally, the "lower castes", have an advantage due to a system of reservations - affirmative action on steroids. I am not going to argue one way or the other as to whether the idea or the implementation of such an affirmative action policy is fair or net positive. It probably still is in principle, but in practice the people who seem to benefit from this, in my experience, are very rich "lower caste" families. More things to say here, but I don't want to digress. The law suit in the story has to do with IIT. So let's take that specifically. IIT is extremely competitive to get into. It is even more competitive once you are in. It is common for affirmative action students to not do very well there. Call it a difference grit/talent/smartness whatever. This causes a some of them to disengage from studies altogether. Then it is not a stretch to imagine that some of them may not be very good at their job either. The lawsuit and the accusations of casteism has to be now taken with a huge pinch of salt. To be clear, I don't know if any of the accusations in that lawsuit are true or not. But I do know that every middle class parent (including mine) drills into their kids the idea that you have to work freaking hard at studies to "get some where". Everything about that 90 percent statistic can be explained through economics (already rich with all its advantages) or through desperation (high caste+ poor => no chance except if you work really hard). Of course I knew a few so called "lower caste" people in IIT who got in through the "general category" ie purely on merit. They were just as good as anybody there and are also doing well in the tech scene in US. edit: Added the below sentence. The cynic in me thinks this guy accuser in the lawsuit is trying to hide his incompetence by taking advantage of the BLM and current sentiments.
  • triceratops 6y ago
    > It is common for affirmative action students to not do very well there. Do you have any data at all for this? > Then it is not a stretch to imagine that some of them may not be very good at their job either. It's not right to assume that someone may not be good at their current job because they may (in your mind) have benefited from some "affirmative action" program far in the past (John Doe is 20+ years into his career). Judge people on current performance, not past history. Plenty of average students shine in the real world. > The cynic in me thinks this guy accuser in the lawsuit is trying to hide his incompetence Why don't we let the courts work it out instead of speculating on people's motivations or honesty?
• _jgdh 6y ago
  For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don't be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it appears as if the caste system doesn't exist because they've never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I've never discriminated, I've never seen it happen in front of me, I'm confident none of my friends would do it so therefore it doesn't exist. But it does. It's heartbreaking that my fellow Indians have to deal with this in 2020. Just like BLM educated some white people about the existence of racism, how it manifests, how it affects people etc., we need a similar movement to educate upper caste Indians. I've also seen the same people say "if we completely ignore caste, it'll go away". It won't. I personally can't tell you what someone's caste is based on their name because I don't care enough to find out the mapping between name <=> caste. If everyone was like this, there wouldn't be a problem. But I know for a fact that there exist people who can map name to caste and these people also discriminate on the basis of caste. These people might only be a minority but they can have a disproportionate effect. As long as they exist, the rest of us can't adopt an ostrich approach to the caste system.
  • mcv 6y ago
    It's important that companies are aware of this, take complaints seriously, inform their Indian employees that this is not acceptable, explain where and how to report this, and offer training to overcome these prejudices. And have clear sanctions: if someone does discriminate against lower-caste colleagues, and especially when they abuse their power against them (by denying promotion, keeping them away from prestigious projects, etc), then the abuser should be demoted or fired. If you want to work in an environment where caste matters and the caste hierarchy is observed, do not work for a western company. Also, maybe there should be some education projects and affirmative action for those Dalit communities.
    • cvhashim 6y ago
      This is why I scoff and roll my eyes at individuals who argue that tech is a meritocracy when discrimination between countrymen is happening even in companies like Google.
• C1sc0cat 6y ago
  Wow that high - I sort of knew that this was an issue from my contacts in the international Trade union net work. I will have to send that to one of the people I know who got Caste discrimination added to UK Law.
• merricksb 6y ago
  Earlier discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23697083 (358 points/83 days ago/606 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798922 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23798922 (84 points/73 days ago/58 comments)
  • deleted 6y ago
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• reactspa 6y ago
  A personal anecdote about caste in India: I had to move to Chennai to work there some years ago. As I went around looking for an apartment to rent, I was openly told by several Brahmin homeowners that they weren't going to rent to me because I wasn't a Brahmin. The Brahmins have destroyed India. (I'm from one of the "upper castes" myself.)
  • cvhashim 6y ago
    Can the Brahmin/Upper caste just create their own country? Probably sounds ridiculous.
    • deleted 6y ago
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    • rtx 6y ago
      Do you want to chase them out like the Kashmiris did?
• rvn1045 6y ago
  The lack of self awareness amongst upper caste Indians in India and abroad is interesting to witness. They often think of themselves as having come from humble backgrounds and 'made it' in society all on their own. Not realizing that the vast majority of Indians in India live in abject poverty without any meaningful access to basic education and other amenities. Upper caste Indians are more likely to have access to better education, have family from previous generations who were also college educated or worked well paid government jobs. These multi generational advantages have helped the current generation of the upper caste succeed in India and beyond. The Upper caste live in their own bubble not even realizing the privilege they are born with.
  • _jgdh 6y ago
    To be fair, it requires a lot self awareness and external education to learn about your own privilege and how difficult (relatively) other people have it. It's not easy.
    • rvn1045 6y ago
      It really does not in a place like India where differences between the rich and the ultra poor are everywhere to witness. You cannot miss it. 90% of the country is living in poverty.
      • fmajid 6y ago
        Caste is not necessarily associated with wealth. My dad's old teacher in Hyderabad was a Brahmin and he lived in very modest circumstances.
        • rvn1045 6y ago
          Yes but caste is associated with education. And the current generation of the upper caste is succeeding because they are more educated than the rest and come from more educated families. Which I would say is a huge privilege given that a large majority of the country can't even read and write.
• nilsocket 6y ago
  This article is completely based on false-assumptions. In-fact, Caste system is originated in Europe. https://intellectualkshatriya.com/did-the-caste-system-originate-in-europe/ https://intellectualkshatriya.com/did-the-caste-system-origi... Everything about caste system is a propaganda, which is started with christian missionaries during British rule. https://infinityfoundationecit.com/the-indian-caste-system-and-the-british/ https://infinityfoundationecit.com/the-indian-caste-system-a... In-fact, lower caste people were denied education is also a false statement. It was British who denied it, during their rule. https://swarajyamag.com/culture/how-india-made-britain-more-literate-the-beautiful-tree-beyond-dharampal https://swarajyamag.com/culture/how-india-made-britain-more-... Here Indian school statistics before British changed our education system. https://www.firstpost.com/india/rethinking-caste-why-we-cant-be-so-one-dimensional-604681.html https://www.firstpost.com/india/rethinking-caste-why-we-cant... So called lower-caste people were more in Indian schools, compared to upper-caste people, these statistics were in similar through out India. > Does this mean, discrimination didn't exist before British? No, It existed but in very small scale here and their. > If all this is true, then why isn't the narrative changed, and why most Indian's are ill-informed. Our education system is hi-jacked by Leftists/Communists/Marxists. Their sole agenda is to divide India, based on fault lines, so they can bring communism in India. They riots and sorts of things to blame, they are masters of propaganda. > From when this hi-jacking is happening? It is happening from the beginning of Independence, they got hold of educational Institutions in 1970s. Current state of Brahmins in India: https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/are-brahmins-today-s-dalits-in-india/story-GUMXtPlPb3v9XYXcEXPGHP.html https://www.hindustantimes.com/india/are-brahmins-today-s-da... > Then from where did the discrimination come? During British rule, it started and is being continued now. > Does this mean, discrimination exists? Yes, it very much exists in today's society, and people are working towards it. One thing to see, India is the richest country for at-least 1700 years from 0-CE. A society will not function well, if their is wide-spread discrimination, revolts will happen. It isn't the case in India. > What about this article, which says 90% of them are from Upper-caste. I don't know about the authenticity of this article or numbers. But one logical answer would be because of reservation, it is very hard for upper-caste people to get into good colleges in India. So usually, for better education people go to other countries, not all of them will be rich. Many people take loans to go to foreign countries, usually 1st-semster fees will be arranged by lending money or taking loan. Rest of the time, people work in part-time jobs and try to pay their fees and accommodation. I have many relatives, who have done this.
• mcv 6y ago
  My dad recently told me how during the 1980s they had two Indians working together on a project. Turns out one of them was upper-caste, and the other lower-caste, and the upper-caste basically refused. Was impossible to work with, because he was offended that he had to work with a lower-caste person. If this attitude discrimination of Dalits by upper-castes is really so common in non-Indian companies, it sounds like it would be irresponsible to put upper-caste Indians in a position of authority over Dalits. Maybe they need additional training to help them overcome their prejudices, but this sort of discrimination and bullying should really not be acceptable. Of course if you blindly assume all upper-caste Indians are like that, it would ironically lead to discrimination of those upper castes. Education is probably the better option.
  • buran77 6y ago
    I saw the situation a bit differently, the upper caste guys would have no problem working with the lower caste ones simply because this meant they never had to work. They would pawn off all the work on the others and order them around. And if I tried to force any work on them it just backfired since they just shoved it down the throats of their "slaves". Even trying to embarrass them in a meeting didn't work. With all eyes on them they would just look at me with a look of mild surprise. They simply (and sincerely) could not acknowledge why someone would phrase as a criticism something that for them is so naturally correct. For them it looked like criticizing a farmer for using work horses. I found this as some of the most disgusting behavior I have ever witnessed in a place of work.
    • mcv 6y ago
      Might have been that the situation at my dad's work was actually similar. But if that's their attitude, it still makes me wonder why anyone would hire them. Doesn't this attitude basically make them useless to their employer? As an employer, would you promote the guy who did all the work or the guy who did nothing while taking all the credit?
      • buran77 6y ago
        They aren't stupid or lazy, they're just raised with the (mistaken) impression that they're better than everyone else. But they are capable of working, just not doing the same jobs as the lower castes. So they're hired to be the leadership layer. Outside of India they're hired because they do have good qualifications, or because they come with a strong recommendation and connections. And again, they're not incapable of doing their jobs just don;t expect them to do "low end" jobs. And another surprising fact, when I was working together just with someone from a higher caste he would have the same attitude around me that the lower caste guys had around him. So even if in a top caste they'd concede that "the white man is superior". And while I appreciate the conviction they put in the whole class system to the point where they will accept me as being superior based purely on the color of my skin, I still found the whole thing disgusting.
• pringles_red 6y ago
  I don't get why is everyone who is saying this a result of the reservation system is getting downvoted. I am an Indian and clearly reservation system is a spectacular failure. The reservation system actively creates a divide among castes. I will not be surprised if some these upper caste people who are fed up of reservation in India discriminate when they go to USA. These upper caste people are not discriminating due to fact that they believe that one caste is superior to another, they are doing it because they are able to sympathise with the plight of other unreserved Indians in India. How it is to be unreserved in India: Any unreserved Indian who wants to stay in India is basically agreeing to working two to three times as hard as a reserved Indian to get into any government jobs/colleges while at the same time their tax money is being used to fund these. Also complaining about caste system or reservation can land you in jail (for offending minorities) and the politicians use reserved people as their vote-banks providing them even more privileges for votes. This system is only going to get worse for upper castes. So even your future generations have to work two - three times as hard because of their caste. Sounds like a good deal? Also reservation benefits only rich reserved people not the poor ones who actually need help because everyone of the caste regardless of their economic circumstances can take advantage of reservation. My grandparents were literally rag pickers at one point in their life and now they are in the middle class I'm not sure how this is due to their caste and not their hard-work. The system is utterly disrespectful to anyone in the upper class. Thus, the higher amount of immigration is of the upper class anyways. P.S. - By upper caste I mean the "General" unreserved people and "SC ST OBC" etc are the reserved quotas.
  • higerordermap 6y ago
    This. I think US people see caste system as something like skin color based racism in west. Actually it is much more complicated than that. I know people from upper castes who were actually middle class farmers, and those from lower castes that got benefit from quotas even if they were rich[0]. Affirmative action is always bad. Because the people getting benefit of it are likely to be privileged. In this particular lawsuit, the discriminated was mentioned to be an IIT alumnus. It is basically hard to get into an IIT without decent investment in study materials / training to pass entrance exams these days. But still most of the seats are reserved for SC/ST/OBC and availed by people who are rich. After reading this, some so called Indian liberals jump in to defend this is never the case. Go to an IIT and check the list of students who got in due to affirmative action (called reservation here). You will find most of them having wealthy parents because most students who write IIT entrance exams take coaching[1], and that's quite expensive. Some media likes to highlight this or this may even give impression that upper caste Indians are casteist. They are not. But they are likely fed up with the abomination that reservations (affirmative actions) are. Apart from that, there is likely chances of nepotism in bureaucratic organizations like Cisco. Also, as for as I know, the caste system alone doesn't explain why South Indian upper caste people are more successful than North Indian upper castes (Brahmins / Baniyas) who outnumber them easily, and also appear more in IITs/NITs.
• GuB-42 6y ago
  Just looking at the numbers, that 90% of Indian techies are upper-caste is not that bad. According to the article the lower caste makes up 25% of the population, so presumably, 75% are upper caste. It means someone upper caste is 3 times more likely to be a techie compared to lower caste. By comparison, a man is 4 times more likely to be in tech than a woman, and asians in the US are 10 more times more likely to be in tech than whites and 30 times more likely than blacks! So there is certainly a gap, but a surprisingly small one considering the difference in status and presumably wealth and education. Of course, it doesn't excuse the caste system, and especially not the difference in treatment at the workplace.
  • newen 6y ago
    No, the article says Dalits make up 25% of the population. According to Wikipedia, upper castes (Forward Castes/Others) make up 18% to 30% of the population, depending on how they're counted, I think. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India#Distribution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India#Distribu...
    • GuB-42 6y ago
      Ok, the article wasn't clear about what is considered "upper caste" so I assumed it meant "not Dalits". It changes the picture completely. That makes the upper castes 30 times more likely to be in tech than any other Indian, and who knows the ratio when only Dalits are considered, I guess more than 100.
• Cantbekhan 6y ago
  I strongly recommend this recent movie https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7142506/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7142506/ which gives what IMHO seems like quite a realistic view on that topic (and no, it's definitely not the cliché Bollywood movie full of dancing, don't be fooled by any trailer).
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• amai 6y ago
  "...he was allegedly told by Cisco's human resources team that "caste discrimination was not unlawful"." WTF?
• news_hacker 6y ago
  If 90% in the US are "upper caste", their lived reality isn't really "upper caste"... by virtue of being part of the 90%.
• erikerikson 6y ago
  Here we just call it class.
  • busrf 6y ago
    I don’t think it’s the same thing as what we think of as class. I found these comment threads made some of the differences clear to me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24556347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24556347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24554209 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24554209
    • Rury 6y ago
      They're very similar - they both represent social stratification of society into social ranks of wealth, income, race, education, and power. The only difference is that a person's 'caste' in India, is dictated by blood and can never be changed. Whereas in the West, a person can theoretically transition from one class to another.
    • crispyporkbites 6y ago
      It’s not far off the UK definition of class (inherited from your parents and schooling), but a long way from the US take (based on your bank balance).
• rutherblood 6y ago
  Wherever Indians go, they take caste with them.
• lilSebastian 6y ago
  Working for a large Indian outsourcer, the caste system is alive and well, and if you're not Indian, your the bottom of the pile.
  • bpiche 6y ago
    How long you been there?
    • lilSebastian 6y ago
      Was TUPE transferred 4 years ago. Happy to answer any questions.
• dharmach 6y ago
  This is more of a USA problem where people working under H1B visa are somehow dependent to their employer/manager and vulnerable to exploitation/discrimination (if the employer/manager happens to be a casteist Indian). In Canada (for example), I can flaunt my low caste without such fear.
• flashyfaffe2 6y ago
  Being quite ignorant upon this topic, but witnessed sneaky behaviour in my company ( emails with with courtesy sentences systematically missing) I wad wondering to which degree this could explain why India is lagging behind China? Any thoughts?
  • bluGill 6y ago
    Is India really lagging? I don't trust China's numbers, but I also don't know anything about the real situation there. Both countries are developing fast, and that often means that the reality of the situation isn't reflected in the numbers for years.
• flowerlad 6y ago
  There are some areas of India, such as Bihar, where 40% of the populace cannot even read or write, let alone be educated. Such areas tend to be socially backward. Other areas are not that backward. Yes, the ancient caste system still exists in India, in the backward areas. But in other areas it is only relevant when it comes to politics, mainly. See: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/opinion/sunday/caste-is-not-past.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/16/opinion/sunday/caste-is-no...
  • covfefeblack 6y ago
    Is there anyone on this thread who believes this is not good behavior or that the perpetrator should not be punished? I'm all for exposing systemic injustice.. but I don't know how a post about a shitty human being in a company with abysmal hr practices turns into a thread about how terrible Indians are and a kind of weird racism..
  • sreevisakh 6y ago
    Privileged people just fail to see rampant caste discrimination existing in the entire country. The discrimination you are talking about is the overt one - like in cases where Dalits are prevented from using wells. But covert discrimination exists even in the most prestigious institutions in India [1]. The upper castes do not cite caste as a reason to discriminate, but use other reasons. That way, the upper castes can observe discrimination without being called out for being politically wrong. Lower castes are selectively branded as under-performing in academia, government and private organizations. Rentals are denied to dalits even in Bengaluru and Mumbai citing 'non-vegetarianism' [2] (an easy way to discriminate). And there are upper caste groups playing politics to deny career growth to lower caste people in almost every institution. Denial of caste based discrimination is at obscene levels. The truth is that lower castes get discriminated against, even in urban areas, no matter what their credentials or merits are. [1] https://theprint.in/opinion/brahmins-on-india-campuses-studying-science-is-natural-to-upper-castes/378901/ https://theprint.in/opinion/brahmins-on-india-campuses-study... [2] https://livewire.thewire.in/personal/caste-isnt-just-confined-to-rural-india-its-also-part-of-our-urban-reality/ https://livewire.thewire.in/personal/caste-isnt-just-confine...
• neilk 6y ago
  Slightly offtopic, but the recent book "Caste" by Isabel Wilkerson explores the concept as a frame for understanding social problems, beyond just India. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste:_The_Origins_of_Our_Discontents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste:_The_Origins_of_Our_Disc...
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• lowend 6y ago
  ITT: (Possibly) "Upper caste" Indians claiming: 1. This is due to a few bad apples 2. Reservation is the real problem (no it's not) 3. I don't do it therefore it doesn't exist I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" and speak with me as such. My last name doesn't give away my caste either. I don't broadcast it or even like to talk about it because growing up I experienced innumerable instances where people's behaviors instantly changed when they found out. Some mild, some extreme but it was there. I grew up in a metro so this isn't a backward ass village. My college fucking put the caste next to people's names on notice boards for things like seating arrangements for an exam. How the fuck is a person's caste relevant? This is normal for you? Even in the US, people casually either slip in sentences or assume castes and speak as such. Fortunately, there are plenty of people (regardless of their caste - I never ask/care) that feel the same way. Funny enough, the people who care about caste also seem to be racially biased in my anecdotal experience. :|
  • covfefeblack 6y ago
    That sucks man :| - I'm sorry you went through that. From my experience, Indian colleges are pathologically socially backwards - more so than the rest of Indian society (as opposed to the west where schools are more progressive than society)
  • screye 6y ago
    I am not from an upper caste either, but my experience doesn't match with yours at all. My peer group is less culturally Indian than others, but I wonder if experiences such as yours are more pronounced in certain regions or groups, more than others. I have never once been asked my caste, and I have never once seen my friends be asked their castes. But, I realize that being middle class in an Indian metro city already puts me in the 10% class of India that is somewhat shielded from this stuff. I also know that caste becomes a huge thing during marriages and dating. But, I haven't seen much of it in tech. It is far more prevalent in careers where you need communication with under-skilled workers (mechE, civilE), since these workers stick by castes quite closely. > My college fucking put the caste next to people's names on notice boards Would you be willing to tell me what university this was. I can't imagine this being the case in any metro city in India. I won't call you a liar, but this is the first I hear of it and the burden of evidence is on you. > I'm light skinned so people assume I'm "upper caste" Oh yeah, I am too, and I can completely empathize with this people making this assumption. Although, it has been more commonly used in situations where it is used as a way to say "you do not understand the problems of lower caste / dark skinned people in India" than anything else. ________________ Caste based discrimination is a huge problem in India, especially in non-metro India. But, my 2 cents, I have yet to notice any in my time in Tech in the US. ( I did go to a university/location with low south Asian%, but my peer groups in university were very Indian, as are most masters programs, but YMMV)
• zapdrive 6y ago
  This is an alarmist piece of shit written by someone trying to push a propaganda. Living in India, I can tell you who is the much much much marginalized group today: poor "upper caste" families. The lower castes have reservations (quotas) almost everywhere, from educational institutions to govt job, to elected representatives. They don't even have to pay any fees (at least in the state where I grew up: Punjab). The poor upper caste families have the worst of everything: lack of money AND lack of opportunity. Case in point: one of my father's classmates from college, who belongs to a lower caste, got a very high ranking IAS (Indian Administrative Services) govt job due to the above mentioned reservation. He was at a time the second most powerful bureaucrat in the state. His kids got educated in the best schools and got the best tuitions and still got admission in a med school using their reservation. Now compare that to one of my really hard working "high caste" cousin who lives in village, is poor, did not have the privelege of a good education, wanted to be a doctor but could not get admission into med school because he did not have any "quotas". So now tell me with a straight face that the "lower caste" are most marginalized TODAY. I'm not talking about 50-100 years ago. I'm talking about TODAY.
  • deleted 6y ago
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• BrandoElFollito 6y ago
  How are non-Indians classified in the cast system? Are they completely out, invisible to the hierarchy? But in such case how a non-Indian marrying an Indian is perceived? Does this depend on the nationality/skin color?
  • danans 6y ago
    > How are non-Indians classified in the cast system? It's very complicated. TLDR: if you are a high-caste foreigner (meaning white, well educated, successful), you will probably be accepted. If you aren't that, your mileage may vary. After all, caste in large part a codification of the hierarchical social structures found throughout the world. Historically, just like all other old world societies, foreigners were considered barbarians. But if those foreigners brought more powerful technologies (weapons, tools, or social structures) they were quite often accommodated and absorbed. So in reality, the Indian subcontinent has absorbed wave after wave of foreign immigration over millennia, each adding a facet to the complex and fractal social structure and hierarchy. That dynamic - the foreigners with more power subjugating and marrying into a local population - plays a large part into how the caste system (both the theoretical model from scripture and the on-the-ground instances) formed in the first place. Again this is very similar to how the societal estates (clergy, aristocrats, merchants, and serfs) formed in other parts of the world. An innovation of the Indian system is a category of people completely outside the system, the Dalits, who by consequence of both their ancestry and traditional professions, are completely ostracized by people in all layers of the caste system. At some point however in India, the castes became very rigid - meaning endogamous - and also provincial, with caste being interpreted and enforced primarily on a local level. Overall, it's not very different from what you see in the social structure of Latin America, which is not surprising because the Spanish/Portuguese colonists were directly inspired by the social structure they observed in India when they established the post colonial social structure of Latin America. The English word caste is itself a borrowing from Portuguese that subsumes two subtly different Indian terms: varna (the theoretical 4-level social structure) and jati (the actual "tribe" or "community" that identifies with one level of the structure). Today, many Indians are actually more willing to accept an upper class educated foreigner than a lower caste Indian in matters such as marriage, but only usually if the foreigner is white, which is to say they have just adopted the racial hierarchy used in the western world. This tells you a little bit about how much similarity there actually is between the caste system and western racial hierarchies, despite the often heard claim that they have nothing in common.
• zapdrive 6y ago
  > My college fucking put the caste next to people's names on notice boards for things like seating arrangements for an exam. You are lying. The colleges never do that, once the admissions are done. Yes, during entrance exams and results, they list the "quota" under which the student is seeking admission. If you don't want to have Scheduled Caste listed against your name, don't seek admission under SC quota.
  • macintux 6y ago
    Please reference the site guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Accusing someone of lying violates several of them.
    • zapdrive 6y ago
      But it IS a blatant lie. If the OP can provide any evidence of a student's caste listed on a notice board in a college, I'll eat my hat.
      • macintux 6y ago
        “I’m very skeptical of this, other than <short list of exceptions>. Do you have any citations for this in any other context?” That would be an interesting discussion I’d like to see, but you derailed it immediately through accusations of bad faith.
      • emiliobumachar 6y ago
        I don't have a dog in this fight, but, consider the possibility that it's rare, maybe even unique, but real. If that's the case, you've never seen it because it's rare.
      • hombre_fatal 6y ago
        I know what it's like to see something on HN where you 100% doubt the story someone is telling. The problem is that hostile skepticism and cynicism are devoid of content, at best. If you want to clarify to other readers that you find something very uncharacteristic or unlikely, then just keep it conversational and assume they are telling the truth. What would you say if a crystal ball revealed that their story did happened? "Whoa, I'm from India and I've never heard of anything like that, it's hard to believe. Which college/region was that?" would make the same point yet possibly provoke more info from other people/OP. And people are unlikely to downvote an earnest inquiry.
• sabujp 6y ago
  The underlying issues with caste based affirmative action are similar to those seen as with the prop 16 fight in CA. I think removing the wording in the CA const is a bad idea. This should have been approached differently, it's a quandary that really cannot be solved until everyone who qualifies gets a chance to go to college. With remote learning I think we can now allow and enroll many more students.
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• raincom 6y ago
  If we go by the rhetoric of 'the caste system', Mukesh Ambani (an Indian billionaire) will hire poor people from his caste for C-level exec positions in Reliance. Same thing with marriage: look at the billionaires in India. Which one of them has married a poor person from his/her caste? None. How many of these Indians in FAANG hired some incompetent ones from his caste without acing leetcode hard questions? If you are super wealthy, caste/color/creed doesn't matter; it is only for the poor schmucks.
• sabujp 6y ago
  it's not just caste, I've seen fights between various "types" of hindus and Indians, e.g. north indian vs south, east vs west, jain vs non-jain, hindu vs muslim (also west bengali vs bangladeshi), whether you support kashmir independence or not, it's nonstop
• gorpomon 6y ago
  There's a really simple takeaway here for everyone around all this discussion that's surfaced on HN around caste: actively ask people in your org if they've experienced this type of discrimination and take their claims as seriously as you'd take other types of discrimination. This is something SV and other places are just waking up to. Caste discrimination is a pretty foreign idea for many people, so don't feel the need to be an expert right away. Instead, I would suggest you try and find a DEI firm that might have expertise in these issues and see if they can help you work through these issues.
• gariti 6y ago
  As a white American who grew up with indian friends/family who traveled in India for the first time, I was pretty shocked at how different it was than I expected. It's Incredibly diverse in terms of language, religion, culture, ect and I can say that It's the only county I've visited that I left feeling I knew less than before I came.
• everdrive 6y ago
  I learned about the caste system in school. And realistically, outside of a book or two, I haven't heard a thing about it until this article. I appreciate that my news sources have no generally been focused on India, but this really rather surprising. I frankly didn't even know the caste system in India was still practiced.
  • sreevisakh 6y ago
    It's portrayed in academics as a relic of the decadent past or of the remotest regions - in the same vein as witch hunt of Europe. The reality is that covert caste discrimination is really rampant in Indian society - even in the elitist of institutions or the most affluent of Indian cities. I assume that school curriculum wont want to portray this ugly reality for political reasons. But news reports portray a different picture. I don't dare to cite references since new reports about this come out on a daily basis.
• hartator 6y ago
  A reminder that CISCO allowed official caste discrimination in the US among their Indian workers until recently: https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/01/tech/cisco-lawsuit-caste-discrimination/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/01/tech/cisco-lawsuit-caste-disc...
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• Diederich 6y ago
  This is only indirectly related to the article at hand, but it effectively is an example of a 'caste' system in the United States. I was born and raised in California, and ended up living in Arkansas, where I met my wife to be, who had been born and raised in Georgia (the state), near the border of Alabama. My wife had always been somewhat of an outsider from her family, with the exception of her father. They were very close. When we decided to marry, she asked me to meet her family, so we drove to Columbus and stayed for a week. I met her father and liked him immediately. He had a thick west Georgia accent, and had a blue collar job (telephone line repair man) for decades. My wife to be told me in private that her father didn't know what to make of me. In his old school southern mind, the clearest divide was between the races, and between north and south. We were white, so that wasn't an obstacle, but I'm from the 'far' west, so he didn't instinctively know what 'box' I belonged in. She suggested that I ask him if we could go out and shoot on his out of town hunting property, which I did. He was delighted but wary. So the next day he loaded up his guns and drove us out to his 34 acre hunting lot some miles out of town. He had confided in my wife to be earlier: "I don't know if this city boy knows how to shoot. I don't know if he'll be safe." Unbeknownst to him, while I had grown up in the city with my grandparents, my grandfather owned a lot in the desert outside of Los Angeles, and we'd taken HIS arsenal out there many times to go shooting. Back on the rural lot in Georgia, he handed me a .308 Winchester bolt action and one round, and asked me to shoot a sapling about 100 feet away, while pulling himself and his daughter to stand behind me. I loaded the rifle, aimed and shot that little tree down. He asked me to do it again, and I did. He leaned into his daughter and said, "Ok Michelle I think this boy is all right." While he and his family had been friendly to me before, after that moment, I was treated like family. Apparently at least some people from far off California know how to shoot. Years after the wedding, I asked him about that day, and he was embarrassed. I told him not to be, that it was fine. He said that he didn't know any other way. In most every way I could determine, Mr. Shaw was a good, kind and honest man, but he grew up and continued to hold views that many, including his daughter and son in law, found repugnant. But he had learned to keep them to himself, and when he died, those views died with him, and were not passed on to his daughter, nor his grandson. I'm taking a risk saying this, but here it goes: these things take time to change. Before a hundred years ago, for the most part, I believe the 'rules of society' only changed very slowly, over generations, and when such changes happened quickly for whatever reason, the results were almost always terrible and bloody. Our civilization is learning how to change more quickly, and we definitely need to focus on figuring out how to be even more flexible, all with sensitivity and sensibility.
• kingkawn 6y ago
  Abolish caste and class alike
• sharadov 6y ago
  Unfortunately, the caste system is more complex than the issue of race in the US. The reservation system in India was instituted to bring parity between the downtrodden castes and the upper castes. When I was in engineering school in the late 90s, if you were from a lower caste, you barely had to get passing marks in the engineering entrance exam to make it to a top engineering school. And you would still have unfilled seats. A friend who belonged to a lower caste ( got a rank of 25000 in the entrance exam and breezed into a top engineering school), while another guy from an upper caste who got a rank of 5000, basically was rejected. You pretty much had to get a rank under 3000 if you were from an upper caste to get an admit to any engineering school. Not everyone who is upper case in India is rich, in fact the Brahmins are mostly lower - middle class. To be poor and Brahmin is like getting doubly screwed. The reservation system does not stop at education, you have it in public sector jobs. Merit took a big hit, people who were unqualified started making their way into education and jobs. It's a good idea taken to an extreme. A lot of these "Brahmins" are butt-hurt because of this, but hey, you are in the US now, leave that feudal thinking behind.
  • fossuser 6y ago
    These same arguments are made about race in the US too. In fact, I think looking at both through the lens of caste is a better way to interrogate some of the issues. I thought this podcast made that point in a pretty compelling way: https://cafe.com/stay-tuned/americas-caste-system-with-isabel-wilkerson/ https://cafe.com/stay-tuned/americas-caste-system-with-isabe...
    • sharadov 6y ago
      Interesting, I'll check it out. The caste system in India was originally based on profession, and people could move around freely between "castes" , at some point it was co-opted by assholes for their benefit.
      • travmatt 6y ago
        I believe Europe had a guild system that operated in the same way, IIRC. I’d be curious about how those systems compared and evolved.
• specialp 6y ago
  Just for some clarification: What percentage of Indians are "upper caste"? What exactly is the cut off for being lower caste vs upper? I know this article says 90% of Indian US tech workers are upper caste but what is their representation as a whole in Indian population?
  • KhoomeiK 6y ago
    Brahmins are ~5% of India's total population and another 15% are also considered "forward caste", mainly from warrior or mercantile subcastes. So yeah pretty significant overrepresentation.
    • hawk_ 6y ago
      This is based on very outdated census. The percentage of the so called higher castes has grown a lot since.
      • YetAnotherNick 6y ago
        Right wing politics portrays that the percent is decreasing. Any source that it is actually increasing?
• mabbo 6y ago
  At no point do they say "Our company does not and did not allow discrimination against a person for being dalit". That is all they would have to say to take a clear stance- and they don't. > "Cisco is committed to an inclusive workplace for all," the company said in a statement to online news site thewire. > "We have robust processes to report and investigate concerns raised by employees which were followed in this case dating back to 2016, and have determined we were fully in compliance with all laws as well as our own policies. Cisco will vigorously defend itself against the allegations made in this complaint." (emphasis mine). We're inclusive! You can tell, because nothing we did was strictly illegal! And nothing violated any of our policies, which don't cover discrimination by caste!
  • kelnos 6y ago
    Yup. And IIRC caste isn't a protected class in the US, they can completely ignore the problem -- or even actively allow or endorse it! -- and still be "fully in compliance with all laws".
    • travmatt 6y ago
      “”” National Origin Discrimination National origin discrimination involves treating people (applicants or employees) unfavorably because they are from a particular country or part of the world, because of ethnicity or accent, or because they appear to be of a certain ethnic background (even if they are not). National origin discrimination also can involve treating people unfavorably because they are married to (or associated with) a person of a certain national origin. Discrimination can occur when the victim and the person who inflicted the discrimination are the same national origin. “”” That’s the definition given by the EEOC. I wasn’t sure either, but reading that it leans me towards it being illegal. California is also currently suing Cisco, saying they allowed caste discrimination by a manager. AIUI their defense is that they investigated and were unable to corroborate those allegations, which they presumably wouldn’t do if they considered caste-based discrimination legal.
  • fossuser 6y ago
    Cisco is also the company that tried to pitch building the 'great firewall' for the CCP: https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html https://zalberico.com/essay/2020/06/13/zoom-in-china.html They don't care about right or wrong, they only care about making the most money they can while staying within the technical legal constraints of the countries they operate in. I doubt they'd stop at workplace discrimination, if the CCP or Indian government wanted to leverage their tech to kill people (Dalit or Uighur) I'm sure they'd line up to do it (of course they’d rationalize some reason why it wasn’t their problem).
• jrd259 6y ago
  Isabel Wilkerson's new book Caste compares the systematic racism of the USA, the caste system of India, and the Nazi genocide of the Jews. She attempts to describe a fundamental framework of caste (including divine mandate) that encompasses all three. She reports on how Martin Luther King came to see himself as a Dalit (undercaste). She also provides a brief introduction to the (Indian) caste system. Quite relevant to this discussion.
• UhDev 6y ago
  Castes Rule Everything Around Me. C.R.E.A.M.
• subsubzero 6y ago
  Never knew caste discrimination was alive and well, this article is an eye-opener. Some questions I have regarding these things, if a Dalit is considered an "untouchable" how would they even get into an elite univ? I have heard of reservations but going to a school where a majority of your classmates don't like you due to your caste must be incredibly tough, also how do they afford it? state subsidies?
• dnprock 6y ago
  My dad told me how the South Vietnam government divided and excluded people. That was why they didn't have the people's support. They had better fire power. But they couldn't win the war. The communists came and reduced everyone to poverty. China doesn't have these class problems because they too had a Cultural Revolution. India has this problem for so long. In America, everyone tells you how bad Communism is. But they ignore the inequalities produced by crony capitalism. I see the same movie being played again. If we don't address these problems, the crazy revolution is coming.
• satisfaction 6y ago
  Indians don't practice caste system because caste system exists, caste system exist because Indians want to practice caste system. You really think they don't game the visa system?
• anonymousJim12 6y ago
  I'm not sure if this will be seen but I'm very curious to hear from Indian folk: I am the hiring manager at a well known software company that employs a lot of Indians on H1B visas. A while back I brought in an Indian person for a full round interview. This person happen to have pretty dark skin. On the interview team was a light skinned Indian person with a very Brahmin last name that I'd say is pretty average technically and wasn't my first choice to be on the interview team. The unbiased interview feedback sent to me was 5 yes to hire and the only no to hire (and strong at that) was the Indian interviewer... A few days later I read about this caste situation at Cisco and I had to wonder... Any recommendations on how I can avoid having this uncertainty if discrimination was at play? Seems like a pretty hard thing to prove.
  • bmurphy1976 6y ago
    This seems hard to prove regardless of skin/race/sex/religion. That's why you have multiple interviewers and hire mixture of all of the above.
    • cafed00d 6y ago
      I’m not entirely sure if skin color maps well to caste. Perhaps it’s likely that lighter skinned Indians are likely to be upper caste. I don’t know. It wouldn’t surprise me but I don’t know. Anyways, back to the question of discrimination. I’d wager a bet that biases exist against dark skinned Indian people. India, as a society has had that baggage. It’s like you said; proof is hard to establish at an individual level without a thorough investigation etc etc. But it’s to counter these biases that we have multiple rounds. Much like the conversation around other forms of discrimination — gender, race etc —- the best thing to do is participate in the conversations around it. In the case of learning more about caste, I have been listening to material shared on Newlaundry podcasts, watching Kahaniaya Kumar’s speeches/interviews and reading/consuming material published by Stalin K (no relation to the Soviet politician), tweets/works from Kavitha Krishnan. Disclaimer: I’m an upper caste Indian person on an H1B. I’d say that it’s no surprise to me that I’ve been a beneficiary of the caste system than otherwise. I would really like hear from other folks with Indian background on their experiences around caste.
• deleted 6y ago
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• fulyscentedking 6y ago
  This is not shocking to me. Do you expect people who were born and raised in India until their late teens or early 20s to be able to completely change their mind on the caste system just because they have moved to a new country? Think about it. It's the companies' responsibility to rule out people who display any kind of discrimination related to caste.
• eatbitseveryday 6y ago
  If name is strongly associated with caste, can one not simply change it? In my country (USA) one can do so to nearly almost anything.
• nthacker 6y ago
  At first I didn't believe what I was reading, since my experience has not been anything close to whats been described. Then I found : http://www.notablebrahmins.com http://www.notablebrahmins.com NB Score, WTF: http://www.notablebrahmins.com/nb-score/ http://www.notablebrahmins.com/nb-score/
  • YetAnotherNick 6y ago
    This is so funny at being racist. > How do you know that So-and-So is a Brahmin? > How do you know he isn’t? And we do some research before we post. I guess that just includes looking at the surname.
• primitivesuave 6y ago
  I was born in India and grew up in the South Bay Area, which has a big Indian population. I distinctly remember other Indian kids in my elementary/middle school asking me what my caste is. I later asked my parents and they refused to tell me, explaining to me why I shouldn't care. I still don't know to this day, although researching my last name implied rural origins. I am lucky to have immigrant parents who didn't bring this ugly aspect of Indian society with them - those other kids who asked me likely had parents who did, and were imbuing their kids with it from a young age.
  • akchin 6y ago
    Kudos to your parents. I was fortunate that even while growing up in India, my parents never told me my caste and never filled it out in any school forms. If they teachers pushed for it, my parents would tell me to write Hindu, which of course is a religion. This worked because I grew up in big cities, were it wasn't discussed much.
• ocithrowaway 6y ago
  This https://us.macmillan.com/author/sujathagidla/ https://us.macmillan.com/author/sujathagidla/ writer says even Communists are not immune to caste influences. This book is a hard read, but it is worth a read to understand some of the background: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374537821 https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374537821
• eruditely 6y ago
  Just fyi there are non upper caste Indians, I’m Sikh so caste distinctions are forbidden for us. I’m a “Saini” my name is Ricky Saini and I’m not sure this fits with my experience as a lot of the people in my family(who are Indian of course) are not upper caste. I would be shocked to learn if this was true. Just so you guys know the modern Indian community not only Punjabi’s try very cars to be against caste. So don’t think we’re not trying or anything. We try really hard.
• elihu 6y ago
  That's interesting. As a white guy who works in a large tech company with a lot of Indians, I'm not sure what to think about this. I can definitely believe that this is a problem even if it's not obvious to me directly, but I can also see how "Indian people treat those of lower castes badly" could itself be a racist trope. Is there anything that that would be obvious to someone from India but not a white guy from the U.S. that a co-worker is being shunned or mistreated in the workplace on account of their caste? Even knowing what caste each of one's Indian coworkers are in could be helpful in some ways and detrimental in others. (My impression of the Indian people I've worked with is almost entirely positive, and I generally consider them to be a mistreated class already just because so many of them are here on an H1B visa and therefore could potentially be kicked out of the country if they happened to be laid off, which no doubt is in the back of their minds when considering whether or not to work through the weekend. The employee-employer relationship is edging close enough to slavery to make me uncomfortable.)
  • akchin 6y ago
    This is a tough one, but I would look for signals that you would look for even with non-Indians. e.g. is someone being excluded from team building activities, OR after work get togethers, OR are someone's ideas being dismissed without any particular reason. Now, with specifics to Indians, - if you hear someone mention they are Brahmin for no real reason, or in relationship to being really good at something, make a mental note that they may be at high risk of discriminating others - if you hear folks pejoratively putting down someone because of where they are from or how they grew up - a small village
• revel 6y ago
  I know this article is about Indian tech workers living in the US but it seems part of a broader trend in Indian society. I'm not Indian but I have worked and lived in India for a long time. In my opinion this problem is getting worse. In the same way that American society is increasingly bimodal, wealth and power are further concentrating in the upper echelons of Indian society. From an outsider's perspective it seems like within the two peaks competition has increased, so insiders will feel like the country has become increasingly meritocratic and technocratic. What I think has happened instead is that the wealthiest, most autocratic families have seen competition tighten, but the overall wealth concentrated at the top has increased dramatically. I don't know what the long-term effects will be on Indian society but it's going to become an existential problem if not addressed at some point.
• hairband 6y ago
  I am not American so I do not fully understand the legal system in US, but it seems this is a lawsuit that alleges caste based discrimination, and the lawsuit is currently pending judgement. If that is the case, shouldn't all the names be anonymized? Is it acceptable in US to make public the names of the accused but not of the accuser? Its one thing to reveal names when they are found guilty, but thats not the case here.
• Nesco 6y ago
  Could this be counted as white privilege? https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/science-and-technology/story/20010730-controversial-study-says-upper-caste-indians-are-of-european-descent-lower-castes-of-asians-773932-2001-07-30 https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/science-and-technology/st...
• one2know 6y ago
  Why does Hacker News censor any claim about racial bias in tech hiring? Does Hacker News support free speech?
• JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > the priests -- or the "Brahman" class -- were at the top, the warriors or "Kshatriyas" came next, the merchants or "Vaishyas" formed the third tier, while labourers, artisans, and servants, known as "Shudras", came last and essentially served the other three castes. Out of curiosity, where is the traditional upper/lower caste line?
  • riazrizvi 6y ago
    If you're a Brahman, lower caste starts at Kshatriya on down. If you're a Kshatriya it starts at Vaishya on down...
• rizpanjwani 6y ago
  This truly bothers me that people bring their religious/casteist/nationalist/etc. baggage with them when they immigrate. I thought immigrants hope to start anew in a promising developed country precisely because of these issues back in their home countries. Why not leave everything behind and try to adhere to the liberal values that attracted us here in the first place?
  • AtlasLion 6y ago
    they are human, not a robot you can reset to factory settings. it's only human that people have values that they uphold as the truth and that is hard to change. the place where you immigrate to is not necessarily superior. Immgrants could bring in values that improve their new home country.
    • rizpanjwani 6y ago
      Just to clarify, I am an immigrant myself, and I didn't mean that we should abandon all our values. I just meant that we should re-examine our lives and what made them hell back where we came from - our baggage, and leave it at the airport. I don't think it would be such an impossible task. After all, we are leaving many other aspects of our lives behind.
• vmurthy 6y ago
  A bit strange to see this headline. The headline makes it seem like there is some way that the US has a bias for "upper-caste" Indians which is a bit ridiculous. Indeed, the headline should have read "Defamation case finds caste-based discrimination of Indian by fellow Indian(s)". One way to look at the apparent disparity in numbers taking caste out of the equation : -People motivated to be in the US apply for GRE/GMAT , pursue higher education in the US and get employed there. For socio-economic reasons, this might well be upper caste and there are things that the Indian government can do to bring in a semblance of equal opportunities -People perform well (nothing to do with caste here) and get recognised by businesses and are sent to the US to work there. There's a chance that these are motivated by things other than talent but up to companies to make the evaluation as objective as possible.
  • Barrin92 6y ago
    >there is some way that the US has a bias for "upper-caste" Indians which is a bit ridiculous Caste discirimination has already crept into American firms. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/opinion/caste-cisco-indian-americans-discrimination.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/opinion/caste-cisco-india...
    • vmurthy 6y ago
      My bad. My statement should have read "he headline makes it seem like there is some way that the US government/immigration has a bias for "upper-caste" Indians which is a bit ridiculous
• windex 6y ago
  It's subtle, but you will spot it if you want to. I've seen Indians do this question with other Indians:"Are you vegetarian or non vegetarian?" That's where it starts and that's how they find out. Once the initial sort of veg/non-veg is done, they can then sort by which type of upper caste you are. It's almost an algorithmic partition+sort. Almost all upper caste Indians are vegetarian. Imposition of vegetarianism is the current Indian political fad as well, with people eating non-vegetarian food being randomly discriminated against and lynched under the pretext of "he was carrying beef."
• stevespang 6y ago
  I agree, and they act like it too - - snobs. I have been snobbed off by Indian techies more than once in the last 10 years.
• kbos87 6y ago
  Inept question: would it be possible to outright lie about ones’ caste, or is it easy enough for someone else to figure out? How? I don’t see an ounce of shame in doing so if it levels an unjust playing field.
• nirav72 6y ago
  I never really thought this was an issue here in the U.S. I was born here in the U.S. But based on my very common Gujarati lastnamre, my lower caste status is obvious. But I'v never faced any caste related issues in the U.S. Not even with indian co-workers that grew up India and could be more caste aware.
• zwaps 6y ago
  I know one case in a big and very internationally staffed European company where Indian employees have sort coalesced into a group (hiring amongst themselves, giving out promotions allegedly) that plays out some sort of complicated social structure - including many of them moving into the same apartment building (majorly unusual in this country!) and supposedly some caste-based status system that is rather opaque for anyone else. Within that division, non-Indians also have a difficult standing or at least say they do. There is not much people can do about it, it would be risky topic to address. If true, it goes without saying that this is completely unacceptable on many levels. It breeds serious negative sentiments: I have heard other employees talking quite badly about the situation and Indian employees involved. Several people, all I talked to actually, actively try to leave that team. I know that forming a cohesive subgroup in a foreign culture probably gives comfort, but (to the degree that this is all true) I'd urge Indians working abroad not to do this. It'll eventually have negative consequences for everyone involved. I was seriously surprised by the sort of negative comments I have heard from non-Indian team members.
• nnain 6y ago
  A huge problem with the way reservation (affirmative action) is given to Scheduled Castes candidates, is that it's enjoyed by very few families. I know people who have 3 generations of govt officers (foreign services and all) due to reservation. While a majority for whom reservation was put in place never receive it.
• known 6y ago
  1) Compete Within Your Caste https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_and_oranges https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apples_and_oranges 2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_mobility != https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility 3) Reservations is not a Poverty alleviation program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rural_Employment_Guarantee_Act,_2005 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rural_Employment_Guar... 4) In 1932 British regime offered a separate country to Lower caste where Upper caste can live on a Visa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communal_Award https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communal_Award 5) marks != merit "Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid" --Einstein
• known 6y ago
  Upper caste Indians are operating an Organized mafia in America which was evident in CISCO https://archive.is/YLVtE https://archive.is/YLVtE and ORACLE https://archive.is/XTZ5f https://archive.is/XTZ5f and hence the petition to US Congress http://www.petition2congress.com/20324/expel-indian-americans-from-usa http://www.petition2congress.com/20324/expel-indian-american...
• aliswe 6y ago
  This makes me think of the fact that 99.99% of all the techies in Sweden are white. (from what I've seen)
• testemailfordg2 6y ago
  Well, a child gets to know about his caste first time either from his parents or from the people in the environment he grows up into. In my case I faced reverse casteism, a Brahmin (that's what I've been tagged) rejected by a girl (Rajput -Kshatriya) after she asked me my caste, following a 3 month relationship. Not because she didn't love me, but because of the difficulties that arise due to inter-caste marriages. But after a relationship of 10 years, we finally got married. In those 10 years things had changed in society and inter-caste marriages became more acceptable. So, this casteism is both ways...But again could be karma for me or of my forefathers...Doesn't matter
• ggm 6y ago
  Ask yourself what you would expect Indian communist party positions on caste to be, bearing in mind that India has democratically elected (year on year) Marxist state governments with populations larger than many western economies. It's complicated. What I read, admittedly cursorily, suggests they are still grappling with caste issues. I hoped for clear answers. The problem defies class based analysis. There are wealthy industrialist from the scheduled classes, there are jains and khatri who choose to live in poverty.
• gandutraveler 6y ago
  Such a clickbait article. It's no way 90% and the article doesn't even provide how they got that number.
• thewileyone 6y ago
  Ah, the secret is finally exposed to the West. I worked for a MNC with teams across Asia. I found that teams outside of India were primarily upper-caste because you had to get recommended to be an expat team. Also, these Indian national upper-caste members would look down on the lower-caste staff in the country that they were working in, using KPIs to force them out of their teams completely. My division boss, upper-caste, forced me to take on one person that would solve all my team's problems. Long story short, he couldn't fix the problems because the source was with another division, led by another upper-caste. Now, I'm not saying that they are all bad, but they not all good either. It's sad that the lower-caste don't get the same opportunities though because I met many lower-caste guys who knew their stuff, but knew that they weren't going to go anywhere in their careers.
• gandutraveler 6y ago
  Does Affirmative action mean that us shorter Indians will get to play in NBA?
• anukin 6y ago
  TLDR; do not read the comment section. It reads like the Indian subreddit.
• pkphilip 6y ago
  As someone who has worked in the US and in other parts of the world, I have witnessed first hand the regressive attitude of many upper caste Indians towards others from lower castes - even their colleagues in the US and Europe. It is shameful that in this time and age such attitudes continue to exist.
• goku99 6y ago
  I am shocked how this ended up in Hacker News. I believe this is just human nature to view everything in binary, and discrimination looks like inbuilt into us, it's like remanence of our animal nature. I would just like to move on and focus on things that matter to the world, than complain. We are imperfect and stupid, with our own biases. There is no right way.
• ashishb 6y ago
  > Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians What's the source of this statistic?
• dang 6y ago
  All: please note that there are more comments on page 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047&p=2 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24552047&p=2 (That's what the 'More' links at the bottom of large threads point to)