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Six indicted in multimillion dollar scheme to bribe Amazon staff
- runawaybottle 6y agoWaiting for the real indictments from 2008 fraud. Until then, whatever.
- 55555 6y agoWhich fraud are you referring to?
- masonhensley 6y ago> In total, after their fraudulent reinstatement, the products and merchants earned in excess of $100 million in sales revenue. Woah. Was not expecting it to be that big. > More specifically, the Indictment alleges that the defendants served as consultants to so-called third-party (“3P”) sellers on the Amazon Marketplace. Most companies have their employees sign onboarding documents or do an annual "business conduct" policy review. Any thoughts on a better way to manage something like this at scale? On one hand, I have a bad taste in my mouth from past employment situations that dictate "we own every though that enters your mind 24/7" - but consulting regarding your current employer, yikes. I guess ethics aren't boolean to some.
- ikeboy 6y agoDon't outsource critical business logic (like whether an 8-9 figure account should be suspended) to Indian low level contractors? This has long been a major issue with Amazon - often the people making the decisions as to whether a business with dozens of employees gets to keep selling or goes bankrupt are being paid less than US minimum wage in another country.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 6y ago> to Indian low level contractors So this style of casual racism / xenophobia is ok if directed at approved targets? Pretty sure if it happened to be 6 African American individuals who were indicted it would not be acceptable to say "Don't outsource your work to low-level Black contractors".
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- everybodyknows 6y agoConsider that the US DOJ has no authority to investigate, arrest or prosecute in India, India being a sovereign independent state. Also, https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html >Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
- gdyuytgh 6y agoDoJ absolutely can prosecute the managers who set up this scheme. Once a very white American SVP gets to spend a week in jail, the problem with outsourcing responsibility will be solved swiftly.
- jerzmacow 6y agoWhat a good rule to live ones life by!
- nurgasemetey 6y agoMany examples can be hiddenly loaded, not well-constructed rule
- ikeboy 6y agoThe difference is that people from other countries are generally not subject to US jurisdiction. Certainly the deterrence effect from stories like this is far larger for US based employees and contractors than foreign ones. It's not xenophobic to prefer US employees for sensitive positions of trust, where the rule of US law is relevant.
- viraptor 6y ago5 out of 6 people here were not based in India or another cheap labour country, so we've already for a counterexample.
- ikeboy 6y agoMost of those people weren't Amazon employees. The two employees indicted were India based (read the actual indictment, one of them moved to the US later).
- cscurmudgeon 6y agoThat’s still 4 out of 6.
- ikeboy 6y agoWhat exactly is your point?
- cscurmudgeon 6y agoYou can't see that?
- ikeboy 6y agoNo, it's unclear why the location of people that never worked for Amazon is relevant in this context.
- rtx 6y agoCasual racism is not ok man, this has nothing to do with nationality. I know tech industry workers are sensitive about outsourcing, but don't make it about nationality. If these companies are happy to sell in India they should not have problem hiring. India regularly extradites people who have been indicted in USA.
- ikeboy 6y agoYou can't honestly tell me you believe the deterrence effect is just as strong whether someone is US based or not.
- rtx 6y agoIt can be, Indian call center scammers are more scared of FBI than Indian law enforcement. Criminals have different value set nothing to do with nationality. We still have a article on the front page about an American CEO embezzing funds. You will not hear anyone saying be careful of American CEOs.
- ikeboy 6y agoThat's not the relevant comparison.
- frequentnapper 6y agoSo you're saying that it's ok to for Amazon to sell in India but not hire there?
- ikeboy 6y agoPlease read the above comments, in particular the part about critical business functions.
- frequentnapper 6y agoYou originally stated that: This has long been a major issue with Amazon - often the people making the decisions as to whether a business with dozens of employees gets to keep selling or goes bankrupt are being paid less than US minimum wage in another country. So I'm assuming you're saying that they shouldn't hire in India apparently because of less than minimum wage. So these kinds of things can be avoided if Amazon were to hire decision makers who make minimum wage or whatever the lowest amount they can get away with in US? As you know, the sellers and buyers are global. So should Amazon divide its operations so that Indian employees only process sales and purchases based in India? What happens with sales from India to USA or vice-versa? I am failing to grasp what exactly it is that you are saying here. With respect to extradition, India and USA already have a treaty.
- cscurmudgeon 6y agoThis is the kind of non-racist, non-stereotyping, and non-xenophobic advice that will make Amazon great again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amazon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Amazon
- dannyw 6y agoIt's hard to gauge intent, but I interpreted that message as "don't try to trim costs by outsourcing critical decisions to extremely low paid workers; especially in another country". I mean, should we try to use euphemisms for China's control of chipmaking? Or the German emission cheating scandal? Simply referencing a country or race doesn't make you racist. Interpreting it though...
- cscurmudgeon 6y ago> I mean, should we try to use euphemisms for China's control of chipmaking? Or the German emission cheating scandal? When that extends to Chinese people or Germans that is racist.
- JumpCrisscross 6y agoI’m of Indian heritage. This isn’t about the reviewers being Indian per se. It’s about a compliance function being placed in a country with poor law enforcement, low pay relative to the activity they’re monitoring and geographic/cultural separation from HQ. If you read about a bank whose traders are in New York and whose risk and compliance are in Tokyo, what would you think? And Tokyo has decent cops and high pay. This is, fundamentally, about Amazon treating this function as a cost centre versus brand defence.
- EE84M3i 6y ago> Tokyo has decent cops and high pay. No issue with your general point, but Tokyo having decent pay is generally not true and cops being decent is debatable.
- blueblisters 6y agoWere the Amazon employees who accepted the bribes from India? I don't see that mentioned anywhere on the link. It seems the third party contractors were hired by the Amazon sellers to bribe on their behalf. Edit: On reading the full indictment, there is no mention of the national origin of any employees of Amazon. The 6 accused knew each other and were exchanging insider information from undisclosed Amazon employees with third party sellers in return for a fee. A couple of them were ex-Amazon employees who presumably used their insider knowledge to build confidence with the third party sellers, but I don't think they are being charged for using that knowledge. Not sure how this would be prevented if Amazon did not have operations in India?
- fmajid 6y agoNishad Kunju of Hyderabad, India is the only defendant named as a former Amazon employee. The others bribed him, then he left the company and bribed his former colleagues.
- blueblisters 6y agoOh gosh I'm blind, I missed that line completely from the summary page. But does that mean all the bribes were given to employees in India? I wonder why they are not being charged? Perhaps because that part of the fraud happened within the Indian jurisdiction? Or are maybe they are waiting on Indian law enforcement to formally charge them.
- viraptor 6y agoThere's some space been the extremes. You're normally not allowed to say anything that would be a company secret, but nothing should stop you from consulting on Amazon Marketplace as long as you use only public information you know very well. If you're already past ignoring company secrets, is unlikely preventing other employment would stop you already. As for actual fixes, I think safety critical systems already have some answers: require 2 person confirmations, audit access, correlate repeated issues.
- frank2 6y ago> consulting regarding your current employer The 6 defendants weren't Amazon employees.
- amscanne 6y agoOne is a former Amazon worker, who was involved in the activity while employed: > In the course of the conspiracy described in the Indictment, the defendants paid bribes to at least ten different Amazon employees and contractors, including KUNJU, who accepted bribes as a seller-support associate in Hyderabad, India, before becoming an outside consultant who recruited and paid bribes to his former colleagues. In exchange for those bribes, the corrupted employees and contractors took the following illicit steps [...]
- Aeolun 6y agoI used to think you couldn’t possibly get any of those ethics courses wrong, until I saw someone close to me struggle through one. It’s just not as obvious to some people I suppose.
- ycombonator 6y agoBusiness conduct doesn’t work in countries like India which is rife with corruption. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
- rorykoehler 6y agoIf they were worried about ethics they wouldn’t be working for Amazon. The best way to handle this is to break up the company so they can work on a scale that matches their competence (not only looking at business from a revenue perspective).
- valuearb 6y ago$100M in sales is only like $5M in profits at Amazon merchant profit levels.
- single_source 6y agoI work for Amazon and have had people reach out to me about doing this with a large price tag attached to it.
- koolba 6y agoHow much is “large”?
- single_source 6y agoMuch more than I'm getting paid at Amazon.
- idbehold 6y agoOver what length of time?
- single_source 6y agoI didn't get into the details because I was adamantly against doing it.
- TeMPOraL 6y agoWhat you're getting paid at Amazon has the dimension of money/time; a bribe is presumably just money. We need to know the time period to reasonably compare the two :). Otherwise it's like saying "the distance to city is much larger than the speed of my car".
- single_source 6y agotbh, I've already said more than I'd like to about the matter.
- randycupertino 6y ago
- SomewhatLikely 6y agoThe article says 10 employees and contractors accepted the bribes but this seems to be focused on those paying. I hope they also go after those accepting the bribes.
- newcomputer 6y agoAgreed. Accepting the bribe seems to be a worse offense than offering it. I'm not sure why the employees were not indicted.
- dylan604 6y agoI didn't accept a bribe. I went to the restroom, and when I came back there was suddenly an envelope full of cash on my desk. None of my co-workers knew anything about it, so I just assumed 'lucky me'. The timing of approving those plans is just coincidental. I was going to approve them anyways.
- coredog64 6y agoThere’s a weird dynamic in bribes. If I offer you a bribe and you don’t take it, I can still claim that you did. Or I can muddy the waters by claiming that you asked for it. One idea I’ve seen is that it should be legal to accept a bribe but not offer or solicit one. On taking the bribe, your legal protection is conditional on handing over the bribe to the appropriate authorities. There’s still some game theory at work, but you’ve at least given people that are susceptible to bribes some additional power.
- danielheath 6y agoIf you get to keep the bribe only once the briber is found guilty, it gets even more tempting.
- PopeDotNinja 6y agoMy personal gut reaction is to avoid touching dirty money at all costs. Life’s too short to try and explain that to a law enforcement professional with no imagination.
- randyrand 6y agoWhats the difference between a bribe and payment for services? legally? For example, is an employee selling their knowledge about how a company works a bribe? Software contractors often sell information like that. But it does seem bribe-like.
- kinkrtyavimoodh 6y agoIt's not bribe if it's an authentic, official channel. For eg. if the DMV starts a program where you can pay $50 to get an instant walk-in appointment, it's not a bribe. However, if a DMV employee asks you to slip her a 50 dollar bill in return of an instant appointment, that is a bribe.
- anonAndOn 6y agoLine jumping is revenue center for theme parks these days. At Disneyland it's called the MaxPass, at LegoLand, the Fastrack. I'm sure there are others.
- umeshunni 6y agoAt the TSA, it's called PreCheck.
- throw_away 6y agoNot that I care much at all these days, but were there a checkpoint offered with no PreCheck, I, as a non-PreCheck person, would prefer that one even if it took more time.
- klyrs 6y agoThe difference is whose pocket the money goes into. If it goes to the government, or the company, that the official represents, it's a fee. If the official pockets the money, it's a bribe (or possibly fraud / embezzlement). Good rule of thumb: always get a receipt. No receipt, it's a bribe. If you're given a genuine-looking receipt, then you can probably get off the hook as a victim of fraud.
- ponker 6y agoAmazing. Bezos outsourcing compliance to the federal government, saving money and getting access to harsher punishments than he can dispense himself. Genius
- moltar 6y agoHard to say if they saved money. This fraud definitely has a negative impact on both sellers and buyers. Buyers are losing trust in Amazon due to sub standard products. Sellers are getting fed up and quitting or moving on.
- president 6y agoI would assume this goes on A LOT. There is a lot of trust given to employees in tech companies.
- ericbarrett 6y agoAgreed. I think the people who set up these contracted “decision centers” (things like user report reviews, fraud handling, adult content policing) subconsciously assume the workers will have the same loyalty and comfortable lifestyle that salaried tech employees get. Take contracted US-based call centers: a significant fraction of their employees will be home-insecure (staying with relatives or partners, or moving every few weeks), living out of their car, or straight up homeless, making minimum wage with less-than-fulltime weekly hours. A significant majority will be short-term employees who bounce after a few months or years. Even $10k bribe—especially untaxed—could be a year’s spare income or more. It’s a very different value proposition.
- bogwog 6y agoWhich is also why I find it so hard to trust these technology giants, especially on the topic of privacy and personal data.
- ikeboy 6y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17999282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17999282 Story from two years ago
- tyingq 6y ago"According to the Indictment, since at least 2017, the defendants have used bribery and fraud to benefit merchant accounts on the Amazon Marketplace, resulting in more than $100 million..." Interesting that only the 3rd party sellers are indicted here. At least that's how it reads. Maybe it's more complex on the Amazon side and some second wave is coming.
- DropkickM16 6y agoYes, as the world moves more and more toward online commerce, a statute specifically crafted for "fraud using transmission of information over wires" is just the modern tool we need to fight back.
- ransom1538 6y ago"conspiracy to access a protected computer without authorization, conspiracy to commit wire fraud, and wire fraud" Ah yes. They are charged with "using electronic communications or digital networks to obtain money based on false representation or promises." Remember fraudsters: If you just meet these people at a McDonalds you wont be charged with a crime. Do not use mail or wires and watch the government squirm. https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-941-18-usc-1343-elements-wire-fraud https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual...
- dgacmu 6y agoFor it to be a federal crime there (typically) needs to be an inter-state aspect to it. It's typically very easy to show that the communication crossed state lines if it was over the Internet, which removes jurisdictional challenges. If you defraud your local grocery store with your coordination meetings in a local mcdonalds, it's _probably_ a state crime. () () (1) there are many ways a crime can slip into federal jurisdiction; (2) IANAL, so don't take advice from me when you're about to commit fraud.
- free_rms 6y agoAmazon operates in all 50 states. For it to be a federal crime, there just needs to be federal interest. They can make it a federal crime if they're interested.
- frank2 6y agoThat's not true. To pick the first example I was able to find: In United States v. Lopez, ___ U.S.____, 115 S.Ct. 1624 (1995), the Supreme Court invalidated, as beyond the powers of Congress under the Commerce Clause, the Gun Free School Zone Act, which criminalized the possession of a firearm within 1000 feet of a school. https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1112-constitutionality-carjacking-statute https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual...
- 6y ago
- thimkerbell 6y agoHow, as an Amazon customer, do you report something that looks odd and could be shady? (It involves the term "debit card credit voucher", if that helps any. And do you all have your Amazon purchases show up as Seattle ATM withdrawals?)
- thimkerbell 6y agoThe other thing that's funny, is that Amazon.com's "help/ customer service" page doesn't offer a way or visible path to speak to a customer service human anymore.
- thimkerbell 6y agoAnd today my chromebook has suddenly lost all its history, settings, and downloaded local files. I wonder if there was a way to have backed them up.
- thimkerbell 6y ago"and local files, that I had downloaded." Unfortunately these also included the screen captures I had made of oddlooking browser window content.
- ForHackernews 6y ago> (a) sharing competitive intelligence about competitors’ revenues, customers, advertising campaigns, and suppliers; (b) using their inside access to Amazon’s network to suspend competitors’ 3P accounts; and (c) providing consultants with information about Amazon’s internal algorithms, This is mildly amusing, because obviously Amazon does all of these things, but it's fine because they're Amazon. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/23/wsj-amazon-uses-data-from-third-party-sellers-to-develop-its-own-products.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/23/wsj-amazon-uses-data-from-th... https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/07/29/bezos-testimony-data-antitrust/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/07/29/bezos-t...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- dalbasal 6y agoYikes. Corruption in an organization at Amazon-scale, economically, is a totally different beast. More like corruption in a governmental organisation than a private one. "$100 million of competitive benefits to those accounts, harm to competitors, and harm to consumers." At this point, there are "officials," with rubber stamps that are worth millions to a large number of businesses. Google, and facebook too. The difference between doing well or poorly on the ad marketplace, adwords, feeds, results, and such can be the difference between a business worth a fortune and one worth nothing. It's similar in scale, incentive complexes and such to whatever public body approves real estate development plans. Friendly decision makers are worth a fortune. No details on who the culprits were, but it sounds like corruption near the ground level.... $100m. Different beast. At this point, expect less criminally blatant forms of corruption to emerge. Hiring former facebook & adwords people as "consultants with contacts" is already a meaningful sized thing. Sound familiar?
- hamilyon2 6y agoTry not to create monopoly this large and wait for market to sort this out. There should be like 7 amazons, 7 Facebook and such.
- dalbasal 6y agoA part of the reason for the existence of these monopolies is that 1/7th of a facebook (in terms of usage) is worth much less than 1/7th of a facebook in terms of revenue and even less in terms of profit and market cap. Breadth is very valuable to and ad business. Targeting makes it moreso.
- grumple 6y ago1/7 of Facebook would cover the US or EU and would be very valuable.
- pessimizer 6y agoThat's not really 1/7 of facebook, but rather 100% of facebook in the US or Europe. 1/7 of facebook is 1/7 of facebook in the US and/or 1/7 of facebook in Europe. If you had 100% of facebook's business in Des Moines, IA, you would be raking in the cash. Good luck getting it.
- grumple 6y agoThe most interesting part of this is that Amazon’s confidential data was revealed. What level were these employees operating at? Or is this just trumping up charges on support center employees? 100k is not nearly enough to bribe several tech employees. But it’s impressive how effective bribing support can be.
- doggydogs94 6y agoLooks like they bribed the wrong people.
- known 6y agoROHIT KADIMISETTY is a Bania and NISHAD KUNJU is a Brahmin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism) Complete list of Caste-wise scandals https://archive.vn/wip/8MNNs https://archive.vn/wip/8MNNs