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Gallup: 81% of Black Americans Want Police to Retain Local Presence

459 points by apsec112 6y ago

glenda 6y ago
This poll is either disingenuous or misguided - what percent of black Americans want better social services? The call the defund the police doesn’t end with taking money from the police, the goal is to be able to provide more specific services using other departments outside of law enforcement.
- 1123581321 6y ago
  Why should we assume that this reasoning wasn’t factored in by the respondents?
  - c0nducktr 6y ago
    Because the call to "defund the police" has been referenced implying it meant "get rid of police" and do nothing else? That's the whole pole... it's not implied that there will be other services provided to go along with the reduction in standard policing.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
war1025 6y ago
The whole "defund the police" movement feels very much in line with the "Luxury beliefs" [1] idea that has been floating around for the past year or so. [1] https://nypost.com/2019/08/17/luxury-beliefs-are-the-latest-status-symbol-for-rich-americans/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/17/luxury-beliefs-are-the-latest-...
- NicolasGorden 6y ago
  Wow, what an amazing article. I never thought of it this way. But it matches what I've noted in many people. Super interesting concept. Thanks for this mental mode of seeing this phenomena. I'm going to really think it over. Even if I end up rejecting it in favor of some other mental mode, it's still an amazingly interesting lens for looking at recent events.
- ianleeclark 6y ago
  > The whole "defund the police" movement feels very much in line with the "Luxury beliefs" Why do you believe this? It seems to me that reinvesting budgets spent on surplus humvees on more/better school counselors is a perfectly reasonable goal.
  - war1025 6y ago
    > It seems to me that reinvesting budgets spent on surplus humvees on more/better school counselors is a perfectly reasonable goal. The level of "defund" people are advocating for varies pretty wildly. Yes, reallocating budget is perhaps a reasonable thing. A non trivial number of the protesters are advocating for complete elimination of the police though. Oddly enough, I'd expect the widespread riots that have continued all summer long will have the exact opposite effect in the medium to long term.
    - pwinnski 6y ago
      > the widespread riots that have continued all summer long Uh, what? No. Just, no.
      - war1025 6y ago
        The net effect of people hearing "Black Lives Matter protesters clashed with police again last night" on the news for an entire summer is going to be a giant step backwards for whatever BLM is actually trying to achieve. That is true whether or not the riots have actually been geographically widespread.
        strathmeyer 6y ago
        I'm an American and have only seen the police rioting. Defunding the police is the most reasonable option I have heard in my lifetime. Seems like the perfect solution, there is nothing bad to say about it, it's opponents are left to make up "widespread rioting".
        6y ago
- sneak 6y ago
  > Another luxury belief is that religion is irrational or harmful. Members of the upper class are most likely to be atheists or non-religious. But they have the resources and access to thrive without the unifying social edifice of religion. Places of worship are often essential for the social fabric of poor communities. Denigrating the importance of religion harms the poor. Since when is human rationality “luxury”? This article just shot itself in the foot.
  - Aerroon 6y ago
    I'm not so sure it did. The social fabric point is something that even comes up in HN discussions. Religion and religious activities are things that connect strangers and communities. That helps build social trust. With religion gone there isn't much positive that tends to replace it among poor purple.
  - war1025 6y ago
    > Since when is human rationality “luxury”? Most people's interpretation of "human rationality" is little more than a religion of its own.
aortega 6y ago
I'm not from US and when I see people claim for abolition of police I can only imagine the world they live in, completely disconnected from reality. Seriously, abolishing police? Is this some kind of demolition-man-like future?
- arkitaip 6y ago
  Not being from the US is no excuse for being ignorant and arrogant on the matter.
  - aortega 6y ago
    Then please explain why abolition of a basic public service would lead to better living conditions. Would you like to abolish water service or the army too?
  - dang 6y ago
    Personal attacks will get you banned on HN. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
- ianleeclark 6y ago
  > I can only imagine the world they live in You know, you can go and read why they advocate for that position. You can do more than just imagine--more than just imprinting your own biases onto their position. It's just lazy.
- rvz 6y ago
  Well, we gave them the chance to create their own utopia in the CHAZ area and that became another stunning failure. It goes to show that realistically, they (who ever wants to defund the police) are really asking for an anarcho-communist utopia.
  - TMWNN 6y ago
    > Well, we gave them the chance to create their own utopia in the CHAZ area and that became another stunning failure. I heard that during its existence, the six blocks of CHAZ were by capita the most dangerous place in the world, exceeding anywhere in South America or the Middle East.
staticassertion 6y ago
I'd like to see how this cuts by age. A lot of older folks I talk to see police very differently, and often say "You just don't know how things used to be before the police", which I think really misses what people are asking for ie: redistribution of grossly overbudgeted police departments to preventative measures like better schooling, community centers, and more subtle reactive measures like un-armed "police" (or whatever you want to call this new role). I also wonder if the question were phrased differently (and more accurately representing what is actually being asked for), more like "Would you support an N% cut to police budgets, which would come from X part of the police budget, to support preventative measures like social services?", if we'd see a different response.
- questionmarks 6y ago
  when was "before the police"?
  - staticassertion 6y ago
    Often they're referring to New York in the 60s/70s. Of course, there were absolutely police back then. But they largely attribute the increase in their feeling of personal safety with a larger investment in police.
    - jeffbee 6y ago
      Statistically crime in NY peaked in 1990.
      - austhrow743 6y ago
        I would expect crime statistics to peak shortly after a surge in policing but not actual crime.
        username90 6y ago
        Murders peaked 1990 and not a lot of murders goes unreported. Then in just a few years NYC went from being one of the most murderous cities in USA to one of the least murderous cities.
venantius 6y ago
This headline buries the more material difference outlined in the article, which is the major difference between black/Asian Americans and other groups in how likely they feel they are to be treated with respect by the police in any individual encounter.
hundchenkatze 6y ago
It's not surprising that people still want the police around... they just want to be treated equally when they interact with the police.
throwaway5752 6y ago
You can want a police presence, you can also want those police to be properly trained in use of force, and you can want a more robust policy for dealing with emergent mental health issues all at the same time. None of those are exclusive of each other. If I were a police officer or worked in that area of policy, I would be appalled at the degree of correlation that the more frequently people reported seeing the police, the less they wanted to see police around. This is yet another false and divisive zero sum framing of a complex issue. Everyone deserves quality police service from their municipal and state authorities, police deserve accountability for colleagues that break the law and put good police officers at risk, and everyone deserves policing that is unbiased and increases public safety regardless of race, creed, or any other factor.
- glenda 6y ago
  Police departments and city governments are plagued with corruption, you cannot expect corrupt institution the be capable of fixing itself.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
kgraves 6y ago
This will only exacerbate the main issue [0]. [0] https://news.gallup.com/poll/316247/black-americans-police-encounters-not-positive.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/316247/black-americans-police-e...
nprz 6y ago
To improve police presence and interactions wouldn't you actually want to fund the police and make sure they go through proper training to ensure they can handle difficult situations? A lack of funding would probably result in a worse trained police force, no?
- dx87 6y ago
  Pretty much. I keep seeing people here use the multi-year police academies in Europe as an example of why they have less issues with police brutality, while at the same time saying that the police in the USA need less resources.
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    The police chief of the city in which I live, a suburb of Dallas, Texas, was asked why we haven't seen the sort of cases here that we've seen in Dallas and even other suburbs. His response was that we require all applicants to have a bachelors degree. Could be correlation rather than causation, of course.
    - refurb 6y ago
      The same city where a police officer broke into the wrong apartment, thinking it was hers, and killed the man inside? Not sure I'd be pointing fingers if I were the Dallas PD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean
    - refurb 6y ago
      The same city where a police officer broke into the wrong apartment, thinking it was hers, and killed an unarmed black man inside? Not sure I'd be pointing fingers if I were the Dallas PD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean
      - pwinnski 6y ago
        Reading comprehension: I said I live in "a suburb of Dallas," while the incident you reference happened in the city of Dallas itself. I even drew a contrast between my city and what "we've seen in Dallas and even other suburbs." You'd have been better off noticing the contrast I drew and talking about McKinney, another suburb of Dallas, in which a cop infamously stormed onto the scene and threw 15-year-old girl in a bikini to the concrete and pointed a gun at a teenage boy who objected.[0] But no, not that suburb either. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Texas_pool_party_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Texas_pool_party_incident
dx87 6y ago
This shouldn't be a suprise. Some people like to pretend that higher crime rates in some areas is strictly due to higher police presence, but it's clearly not the case. I remember after the protests in Baltimore from FreddIe Gray, the police were told to have a much smaller presence, and not do as much proactive policing. It wasn't long before the people who actually live in those neighborhoods were complaining about the increasing crime rate due to a smaller police presence.
- TMWNN 6y ago
  >I remember after the protests in Baltimore from FreddIe Gray, the police were told to have a much smaller presence, and not do as much proactive policing. It wasn't long before the people who actually live in those neighborhoods were complaining about the increasing crime rate due to a smaller police presence. In a city with a black mayor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephanie_Rawlings-Blake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephanie_Rawlings-Blake), black police chief (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Batts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Batts), 50% black police force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Police_Department#African_Americans_in_the_department https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Police_Department#Af...), and black district attorney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Mosby https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Mosby), when black suspect Freddie Gray dies in police custody in unclear circumstances, it's obviously because of racism so feel free to riot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Baltimore_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Baltimore_protests). (The accused officers—three black, three white—were acquitted by a black judge (http://www.courts.state.md.us/publications/jmonline/2012spring/inbrief.html http://www.courts.state.md.us/publications/jmonline/2012spri... .) Reminder of Baltimore events during the original rioting: * Baltimore Looters Take Everything But a Family’s Pennies / Chinese store-owners and a soldier who fought in Afghanistan both return to find their hometown transformed into a war zone. (https://np.reddit.com/r/news/comments/34cu4j/baltimore_looters_take_everything_but_a_familys/ https://np.reddit.com/r/news/comments/34cu4j/baltimore_loote...) * (Deleted by /r/baltimore moderators on Reddit) Baltimore gang members directed looters away from black-owned businesses. "Instead, he said, they pointed the rioters toward Chinese- and Arab-owned stores." (https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/34ek59/baltimore_gang_members_directed_looters_away_from/ https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/34ek59/baltimore_...) * City Paper calls the purse incident "a dumb distraction". Closest thing to an apology/retraction as is likely from the publication (https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/347f0d/city_paper_calls_the_purse_incident_a_dumb/ https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/347f0d/city_paper...) and, inevitably, what you mentioned: * Baltimore killings soar to a level unseen in 43 years. "Baltimore reached a grim milestone on Friday, three months after riots erupted in response to the death of Freddie Gray in police custody: With 45 homicides in July, the city has seen more bloodshed in a single month than it has in 43 years." (https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/3fcawm/baltimore_killings_soar_to_a_level_unseen_in_43/ https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/3fcawm/baltimore_...) PS - I was banned from /r/baltimore after posting the above comment (https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/4koc6n/officer_nero_found_not_guilty_by_judge_barry/d3gi2ih?context=3 https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/4koc6n/officer_ne...) in a similar thread discussing earlier acquittals. No reason given.
readams 6y ago
This is why the defund the police people really need a better slogan. You can argue that the police should work differently than they do, but it's just obviously stupid to not have police.
- GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
  "Defund the police" refers to trimming bloated budgets and fully funding other programs that reduce crime such as funding inner city schools, child care for poor parents, etc.
  - Rebelgecko 6y ago
    Anecdotally from seeing discussions online and interviews on the news (which to be fair has some sample bias that will emphasize more extreme beliefs), a non negligible number of people who say "Defund the police" believe that police should be abolished.
    - jeffbee 6y ago
      There's a case to be made that while a city needs police it maybe doesn't need _these_ police. At some point an organization is so corrupt that it cannot be reformed. I have no problem with plans to reshape law enforcement through complete dissolution of current police departments.
  - cwhiz 6y ago
    Then come up with a different slogan? There isn’t any ambiguity in the word “defund.”
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - geodel 6y ago
    Seems like 'Agile' then. Everytime agile bullshittery falls flat someone invariably comes to explain how people are not doing agile right.
  - 6y ago
pzone 6y ago
This is even more pronounced among so-called fragile communities, where 95% of black residents want to retain police presence, and in the Chicago area, 68% want increased police presence. https://news.gallup.com/poll/257798/low-trust-police-complicates-crime-problem-chicago.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/257798/low-trust-police-complic... On the other hand, a majority in these communities also say that people have a negative view of the police there.
pwinnski 6y ago
Weird that the focus is on that one question, rather than on "Confidence About Receiving Positive Treatment by Police"
foolinaround 6y ago
Many comments talk about training of the police. there needs to be basic training for citizens as well. To recognize when to listen to a police officer, how to identify if the officer steps out of line, what rights are afforded, etc. This lecture from a law school professor was very enlightening to me : NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE
- aaomidi 6y ago
  > there needs to be basic training for citizens as well. No. > To recognize when to listen to a police officer, how to identify if the officer steps out of line, what rights are afforded, etc. Sure, but no. The police have all the responsibility to de-escalate situations. If they're not doing that then they're the ones in the wrong.
  - jojobas 6y ago
    >If they're not doing that then they're the ones in the wrong. Does that apply if a suspect pulls a gun or a knife on them? De-escalation clearly failed, must be their fault.
  - tomnipotent 6y ago
    > The police have all the responsibility to de-escalate situations This is an absolutely naive position to take. Police have no such obligation, and citizens should absolutely be educated and informed on their rights.
    - Lammy 6y ago
      There's even worse legal precedent than not being responsible for de-escalation: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/us/parkland-shooting-lawsuit-ruling-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/us/parkland-shooting-laws...
      - foolinaround 6y ago
dragonwriter 6y ago
Sure, no one has suggested police departments as currently constituted should both exist and withdraw from Black neighborhoods, except for police unions applying terrorist negotiating tactics. More relevant questions (With regard to “defund the police”): should significant funding and responsibility be redirected from the police to preventive and specialized responsive social services? (With regard to “dismantle/abolish the police”:) Should centralized all-purpose paramilitary local law enforcement agencies be disbanded, with law enforcement responsibilities distributed within specialized agencies whose agents (both armed law enforcement and other) would be domain specialists as well (for law enforcement officers) trained in law enforcement (which also involves transferring non-law enforcement responsibilities and funding more to non-law-enforcememt units.)
- cheez 6y ago
  I walk with the dog and sometimes the kids every day, so I see police patrolling around. Had an interesting conversation the other day with the police officer: - So officer, how have things changed since covid? - Sir, you won't believe the stuff I get called for. Getting teenagers off their cell phones, wife angry that husband didn't do his share of the chores - What about what people associate with "crime"? - Down. As crime declines overall (it has been for many years now), I believe we really need to rethink the jobs we ask police officers to do. They are hammers and they go into situations that don't require hammering and bad things happen.
  - chmod600 6y ago
    There is a spike in violent crime in many cities.
    - cheez 6y ago
      Protests are a temporary thing. Our area has none.
- darawk 6y ago
  Ya, that's what anyone intelligent says any time "defund the police" is mentioned (and I completely agree with it, btw). But they should probably choose another slogan if that's what they actually mean. "Defund" in the context of government policy generally means to eliminate via the funding mechanism.
adamnemecek 6y ago
One of the problems is how police education happens. In Europe, police education starts in high school, you go to a specialized high school for it (and then continue to police college). As a result, the police are much more skilled and professional. You start by studying the law. I don't think you even shoot a gun before you know the law very well. It's unheard of that the police would say shoot a drunk guy with a knife. The way it happens, is that one of the cops who has more martial arts experience (which is one of the things the cops study, which they can do since their education takes much longer) puts on a protective vest and physically immobilizes the drunk. In the US, the same situation is very likely to end up with the the drunk having more holes in him than a colander. What's also funny to me is the extent to which police in the US tackle people. Tackling someone is like the worst idea in the world.
CyberDildonics 6y ago
I wonder how many black americans want body cameras to be mandatory and investigated if they are turned off.
- kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
  I read several years ago that policing unions were initially reluctant to wear body cameras but are now very much in favour as they usually provide evidence that supports the police officer's statement of events.
newacct583 6y ago
This is a horribly spun headline. The question was not whether to "retain presence", it was "Would you rather the police spend more time, the same amount of time or less time as they currently spend in your area?". And unsurprisingly the answers split with roughly half the respondents saying "same" and the remainder split between "more" and "less". Which is about what you get with any status-quo question like this. The headline, being phrased along the lines of a protest demand, makes this sound like a majority disagreeing with the premise of the BLM movement, when that's not the question at all. (It is worth noting, though, that the answers anticorrelate with the amount of actual police work! The more people see the police, the LESS they want them around.)
kingkawn 6y ago
Irrelevant misrepresentation of what “defund the police” is asking for
bradleyjg 6y ago
It always annoys me when some random unelected, unselected person or people purport to speak on behalf of a community. Half the time the self appointed spokesperson isn’t even in the relevant community.
- awakeasleep 6y ago
  Or the “community” is a fiction itself.
- yosito 6y ago
  Which is why these polls are important ways to ask the community what it wants.
rhegart 6y ago
Upper middle class morons who’ve never faced hardships or seen true evil, just lived in their bubble want to feel important and hyper tribalism reinforced via social media anger bubbles makes it a waste of time to have any nuance or discussions. These mobs are ruining primarily low income and minority lives while blue check marks rile them up and media gaslights and fans the flames. Every single city which has had these riots has seen a dramatic upshot in violent crime and economy ravaged. None have recovered since Ferguson
- yters 6y ago
  also a lot of the riotets are young, upper middle class, white males what says black lives matter better than trashing their neighborhoods? read ellison's invisible man written in 1950s to see how long white people have been exploiting African Americans in this way!
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    A number that have been caught actually rioting are white supremacists seeking to provoke a race war, and at least some caught encouraging it online (haven't seen any caught actually rioting)have been specifically police officers that are also white supremacists seeking to provoke a race war.
    - shitgoose 6y ago
      Is that a joke or you believe in this?
    - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
      Surely you didn’t actually fall for that BS line.
    - yters 6y ago
      just look at any photos of the protests and count the white to black ratio if those are all far righters white rioters, this is even more confusing!!! plot twist, they are actually anti fa claiming to be alt right and start a race war so there is more police brutality and there is more evidence to call for defunding police !$$!
InfiniteRand 6y ago
There's a good case for defunding the police in parts of the country where crime has gone down, but my impression is the worse police-citizen interactions happen in areas where the police are stretched thin (maybe I'm wrong about this), moreover, when you are trying to reform a provider of an essential service, it is typically better to provide a carrot and a stick (see education reform for instance), otherwise not only do you get organized resistance to the reforms but you also reduce morale. Good morale is important, not only for good performance, but for reducing the siege mentality among the police. Requiring people to make an extra effort to do their job better (even if the level of better is still below average), while cutting their pay (even if their pay probably should not be as high as it is), seems like setting yourself up for failure.
- shirakawasuna 6y ago
  Defunding is a two-part task: 1. Balkanize police into distinct departments with different training and oversight. The police are tasked with far too many jobs at once and don't do a very good job at any of them. 2. Redirect some portion of funding to community development and fighting poverty, i.e. crime prevention. Instead of buying military surplus equipment, create after-school programs, ensure that kids get fed, etc. If a police department is stretched thin, balkanizing should help with that. Having police doing too many things is a big part of the problem. The police resist reforms constantly. They protect themselves and lie brazenly with little consequence. While morale is certainly something to consider, it's not the elephant in the room. There must be real consequences, and for that there must be real mechanisms of oversight, firing, and prosecution of cops and those who act in bad faith to protect fellow cops.
  - athms 6y ago
    Police don't buy surplus military equipment. The equipment is free, the police only pay for shipping.
    - shirakawasuna 6y ago
      The police often pay for shipping, maintenance, and kitting out the equipment. They might receive a free stripped-down M16, but they still use their own budgets to make it tacticool. Just an optic and light run $1k or so.
noodlesUK 6y ago
Having a demilitarised civilian police force maintaining order through the consent of the public has been a thing since the 1820s. I’d like to see how Americans would respond to a police force formed with a modern version of the peelian principles as its guiding rule set. In my opinion a huge amount of damage has been done by the deliberate choice to act aggressively and quell the protests by ever greater force, and that damage has been done to the respect of the legitimacy of the power police forces hold. People aren’t going to cooperate with a force they see as an armed occupier. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles
- chroem- 6y ago
  A point that often gets lost in the discussion is that the United States, having no gendarmarie [1], has a police force that is less militarized than many European nations. Gendarmaries are literally a branch of the armed forces for the sole purpose of internal policing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmarie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmarie
  - samatman 6y ago
    Is Gendarmarie French for National Guard or something?
    - chroem- 6y ago
      No, it's a different concept. The gendarmarie is specifically internal military police. The Gendarmerie Nationale [1] and Garde Nationale [2] are separate entities. There is some minor overlap, but they have fundamentally different mission statements. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_(France) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_(France) This pattern is mirrored across other European nations as well, and is not exclusive to France.
  - anigbrowl 6y ago
    This is true in a de jure sense, but nonsensical in a de facto sense. Simply comparing video footage of riots in france vs the US shows the US police police to be considerably more heavily equipped and aggressively inclined.
throwawaysea 6y ago
The rioting mobs who are blindly against police and using recent tragedies for broader politics leverage have gotten out of control. It was bad enough that their proposals for defunding are not what any community wants, as this Gallup poll shows. But beyond the reckless and dangerous calls for defunding, the violence/theft/arson from the rioters and far-left groups that back them is just completely unacceptable. Just yesterday some of these rioters sealed in Seattle police using quick dry concrete while setting the precinct on fire: https://mynorthwest.com/2114190/rantz-rioters-burn-seattle-police-alive-sealed-door/ https://mynorthwest.com/2114190/rantz-rioters-burn-seattle-p...
leafboi 6y ago
I wonder how many people here have personally been wrongfully shot at by the police versus just watching it on the media? I for one have been shot at several times after being mistaken for carrying a gun when it was really just groceries. Even I don't want the police defunded.
eanzenberg 6y ago
It’s pretty racist to assume most blacks are in poverty, are not interested in community safety, or are monolithic in their beliefs. You’d be surprised how many have turned to conservatism after the recent showcases from the left political structure.
- aww_dang 6y ago
  'Racism' has become a politically weaponized one-way street in popular discourse. Double standards abound. Take a look at some of the reactions to black speakers at the Republican National Convention. Ultra-PC Twitter had some very un-PC racial pejoratives trending in regards to these speakers. When you start from a point of compassion you can't end up in this place. The intolerance of differing views baffles me. From my eyes, it looks like holier-than-thou guilt projection and condescension. People have their own agency. Not everyone identifies as a victim and lives through that paradigm. You're right to observe racism in this narrative. I look in the rear view mirror at the US where largely white crowds are destroying the US for the sake of 'racial justice'. Who asked for that? Part of this may be due to the tools political parties use to observe their markets. Everyone becomes a demographic to be marketed to. Victims need saving and politicians would love to paint themselves as heroes. Pay no mind if the rationalizations for their heroics are racist. In fact if you question that, you're probably a racist in their view. Even a self-hating one according to the woke-brigade. No thanks.
acjohnson55 6y ago
Black person here. Generally speaking, we just want swift accountability when police do fucked up things.
zaroth 6y ago
It’s probably a mistake to even try to comment here, it feels like wading into a battlefield where words don’t even mean what they say. This survey tells us what I thought we already knew for decades now. Black Americans, particular those living in high poverty and high crime areas, overwhelmingly support increased police funding and increased police presence in their communities. While some protestors who are carrying signs like “Defund the police” may not take the slogan at face value, the ones spray painting “Fuck 12” or “ACAB” across their local courthouse certainly do, and they do not speak for the people responding to this Gallup poll. The literal attacks on police (and police infrastructure) appear to be an intentional destabilization effort in order to neuter policing capacity within a community, resulting in increased violent crime (i.e. the “Fergusson effect”). While I think there are many well-meaning and good intentioned peaceful protestors that initially joined with “BLM”, the “Defund the police” movement has been hijacked by radical anarchists who professionally organize riots (there’s another term for this I won’t use) and absolutely believe police should be abolished. National public perception of BLM which initially spiked positively after Floyd has been decreasing and overall become much more polarized. [1] [1] - https://civiqs.com/results/black_lives_matter?annotations=true&uncertainty=true&zoomIn=true https://civiqs.com/results/black_lives_matter?annotations=tr...
- john_moscow 6y ago
  The media is trying to portray it as a stand-off between Black and White, but I think it's more of a class thing: people that think their position in the society is fair vs. those who are unhappy with it. I would say, there are 4 groups involved: 1. Hard-working Blacks. Against gangs. Against violence. Pro police. Pro civilization. Don't really hate Whites. 2. Short-sighted Blacks. Pro gangs. Against education. Don't have a high-paying job. Plenty of free time. Often substance abuse. Unhappy with their lives. Feel unfairly disadvantaged over Whites. 3. Hard-working Whites. Pretty much, the same as hard-working Blacks. Reasonable people are reasonable regardless of their race. 4. Short-sighted Whites. Unhappy with their lives. Didn't put much effort in education, mastering hard skills, etc. Do have a better starting point than the short-sighted Blacks due to their parents' efforts. Feel unfairly advantaged over group #2 and jealous towards group #3. The thing is, groups #1 and #3 are busy with their work, while groups #2 and #4 are extremely vocal. So the click-driven media makes it look like there's a problem between the Black and Whites. While, in reality, groups #1 and #3 (a.k.a. silent majority) are happily working together, while groups #2 and #4 are stirring up the pot.
fasteddie31003 6y ago
Unfortunately, The whole defund the police movement is going to backfire on the Democrats. Safety is pretty important in Maslow's hierarchy of needs. If Democrats get branded as the anti-police party they are going to lose move votes then they are going to gain by the vocal minority opinion.
- donor20 6y ago
  No question - trump is the absolute worst republican you could run it seems. Short run I don't think republicans have a chance. But feeling / being safe is CRITICAL to folks - they will accept dictatorships to gain safety. The whole abolish ICE / defund the police type platform seems a loser long run for the dems. I'm surprised Biden didn't make a stronger statement distancing himself form this. The violence is really toxic. I'm a reliable dem voter and significant dem donor this cycle, but if you actually live or have lived in "tough" neighborhoods with higher crime (ie, have had your car broken into multiple times, stolen, experienced violence) then you really do start to prioritize safety.
  - istjohn 6y ago
    Yes, safety is important. George Floyd should have been able to feel safe. Breonna Taylor should have been safe in her bed. Who's violence are we talking about here? What does high crime neighborhoods have to do with police not killing people wantonly?
    - txsoftwaredev 6y ago
      If you follow the instructions of the police officers you have little reason to not feel safe. If you fight, resist, run etc. you've given up your rights to safety.
      - breakfastduck 6y ago
        Essentially - you should follow all orders given by police officers, whether they are justified or not. If you don't, you forfeit all rights to be alive. How on earth can you possibly say that? Not following the orders of some jacked up power trip officer means you've given up all your rights to be alive? This has to be the worst take in the entire thread.
mykowebhn 6y ago
Why is this allowed on HN, but articles in support of BLM are not? Also, defunding police does not mean completely getting rid of police. Seriously, why is this article allowed whereas others showing another viewpoint in support of BLM not? This is a real question.
- ponsin 6y ago
  When I read "defund the police" I assume that they mean what they are saying. What do you think is meant by the phrase "defund planned Parenthood"?
Thorentis 6y ago
I wonder what surprises this will lead to in the upcoming election, where the Democrats have firmly placed themselves on the side of those wanting to defund the police.
- PascLeRasc 6y ago
  I wish that was true, but Biden has explicitly said that he wants to increase police funding: https://www.vox.com/2020/8/25/21400782/rnc-republicans-democrats-defund-police-joe-biden-black-lives-matter https://www.vox.com/2020/8/25/21400782/rnc-republicans-democ...
- SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
  I was shocked to see them take that position in any seriousness. I think as more places burn they are starting to see it’s a losing narrative. It you are right, it’s the side they took. Bad word choice from the get go though. Should have been reform the police, they went to hard and landed on defund.
  - shirakawasuna 6y ago
    Defunding is a solution because reform has never worked.
    - refurb 6y ago
      Should have picked a better slogan.
      - shirakawasuna 6y ago
        I think people's lives matter more than critiquing a slogan.
- jeffbee 6y ago
  You can tell Democrats hate cops by the way they put a former district attorney and state attorney general on their ticket.
andromeduck 6y ago
So I know quite a few people SF who are both anti police and anti second ammendment and it just makes absolutely no sense to me. The craziest thing is half of them seemed to be on the marxist/anti-capitalist spectrum too and I always wondered what their plan would be to enforce those ideals without police or an individaual mandate like the 2'nd ammendment. It boggles the mind.
- adventured 6y ago
  > I always wondered what their plan would be to enforce those ideals without police The plan is to replace the police with their own ideology enforcement system, which every totalitarian ideology does by necessity. You can already see this in action. The defund the police proponents are aggressively pushing for building new de facto police structures that they would control (they won't call them police). The goal, as in all Marxist outcomes (happens every single time without exception), is to replace the existing power structures with new power structures that are aligned to the Marxist outcome they're pursuing and that will help enforce their aims and beliefs. The new police would be involved in things such as cultural & behavioral enforcement for example, they would not be narrowly focused on crime, they would be tasked at assisting the revolution. They don't want to remove the police per se. They want to replace them. They want their own enforcement systems put into place, that they can control and that are aligned to their ideology. It is a cultural revolution attempt, plain and simple. This is why Antifa is at the center of the riots, they aren't anti-authoritarian, they're merely supposedly anti-Fascism, and they're universally pro-Marxism and openly violent (which tells you everything you need to know); it's nothing more than the escalation of the classic left vs right conflict, with Antifa being a violent militia wing for the extreme left.
  - andromeduck 6y ago
    I suppose your right. Sometimes I feel like we're living the 30's right now.
  - kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
    Good analysis. I suspect you're right, the funding would be diverted from traditional crime investigations to cultural and behavioural enforcement.
newbie789 6y ago
This is fascinating because I am myself half black, lived in many communities of mixed demographics and never once heard a friend (of any race) say they want more police at all, ever. I guess I also don't know anybody who has done a gallup poll or anybody that knows anybody who has ever done a gallup poll in their lives so who knows? Edit: I don't know how or where these are conducted, or their exact phrasing of their questions, but I'm very curious about that. Because, some rural areas in America have a "posse" system where volunteers get to ride around armed, sometimes outfitted (by taxpayer money) with bulletproof vests and big stickers for their cars showing their semi-official affiliation with the police (or sheriff's department). On the record, they're only supposed to observe or report yet in practice I'd question why it's crucial in some places to outfit posses with bulletproof through taxpayer money in that case, especially in places that have a very low crime rate? I only bring this up because if I wanted to tilt a poll, I'd ask folks in areas where this is a possibility, where asking about a reduction in police force implies an increase in these somewhat-sanctioned vigilantes. You wouldn't even have to include it in the question, you'd just have to ask somebody standing in the right spot.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- pwim 6y ago
  From the article, the question asked was "Would you rather the police spend more time, the same amount of time or less time as they currently spend in your area?", and was "administered by web in English and conducted as part of the newly launched Gallup Center on Black Voices". There's more information on how Gallup conducts polls more generally here: https://www.gallup.com/174158/gallup-panel-methodology.aspx https://www.gallup.com/174158/gallup-panel-methodology.aspx.
- djsumdog 6y ago
  I hated the police when I was younger and thought we'd be better with fewer police. I don't believe that anymore. The emergence of body cameras are amazing because they show just how bad we're constantly being lied to. YouTubers like Donut Operator really opened my eyes. I think back to my younger years and all the ways I've seen police go out of their way to do things they didn't need to. I've seem some do really shitty things too ... but overall, I think we need to remember they're human beings. We're all just human beings, and most people join the police because they want to do the right thing. If many of these problem cities, police forces are composed of a large number of minorities too. Especially during this time, let's try to remember we're all humans here.
fareesh 6y ago
Not sure why this is on HN - can someone fill me in? Maybe I'm missing something
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  Defunding the police has become very popular in the circles many HN commenters frequent, so it's interesting to realize just how niche of a position it is.
  - fareesh 6y ago
    Are there any good empirical arguments for it?
fasteddie31003 6y ago
Listen live to our county falling apart in Kenosha WI https://www.broadcastify.com/webPlayer/30891 https://www.broadcastify.com/webPlayer/30891
istjohn 6y ago
But you don't have to read far to get to this bit: > Fewer than one in five Black Americans feel very confident that the police in their area would treat them with courtesy and respect. While similar to the 24% of Asian Americans saying the same, it is markedly lower than the 40% of Hispanic Americans and the 56% of White Americans who feel this way. This could either stem from Black Americans' own negative experiences with the police or from their familiarity with people who have had negative encounters with law enforcement. Most Americans (52%) according to the poll, are not very confident that police would treat them with courtesy and respect. That's shameful if you ask me. The power that police wield makes it all the more important that they are respectful in their interactions with the public. But we wouldn't accept that kind of performance in any private business front of house role
- refurb 6y ago
  Considering the nature of many (not most) police interactions (i.e. as a suspect, even just a speeding ticket) what would you consider a reasonable target for "courteous and respectful" interactions? 100%? I would just find it hard to believe if I've just committed a crime and been arrested by the police that I would be able to describe the interaction as "courteous and respectful", even if the police did everything right.
  - throwawaygh 6y ago
    I’ve never interacted with police in the context of having committed or having been suspected of a crime, other than traffic stops. Traffic stops are the only pleasant interactions I’ve had with on-the-clock officers (but of course not all of those have been respectful). Since fewer than 52% of Americans have been convicted of a crime, I assume this is a fairly common perspective.
  - edanm 6y ago
    > Considering the nature of many (not most) police interactions (i.e. as a suspect, even just a speeding ticket) what would you consider a reasonable target for "courteous and respectful" interactions? 100%? Yes. I'd aim for 100%. Obviously that's hard to reach, but I think it's certainly possible to do better than 50%. (Though note that it was presumed 50%, not actual measured 50%, so it's more about perception than necessarily about reality). As you allude to, many interactions with the police are not in the context of getting arrested. You might be the one to call the police if you need them for whatever reason, you might be just an onlooker, you might randomly see police moving around your city for whatever reason. But even in cases like speeding tickets, there's no reason for the police not to be courteous and respectful, so long as you behave that way.
dmode 6y ago
I don’t understand the point of this survey. They could have also asked whether people think water is wet or not. The debate here is not about police presence, but (1) what type of presence and (2) what the alternatives are. Absence an alternative, of course people will say they want the same police presence. I would be curious to see if the question is framed along the lines of “Do you want 10% of police budget be spend on mental health” or “Do you want 15% of police budget on rehabilitation and integration”, on housing, on schools etc. That will tell is what the trade offs are and what people feel about those trade-offs
- weswpg 6y ago
  this wouldn't happen if it weren't for the slogan "abolish the police" proponents need to accept that it's just bad framing
  - bshoemaker 6y ago
    The slogan is defund. I.e. reduce
    - brendoelfrendo 6y ago
      Perhaps the "defund" is so entrenched in the conservative playbook as meaning "eliminate by starving of operating capital" that using "defund" to mean "free up capital to be re-prioritized to other social causes" simply seems nonintuitive or alien to them.
      - weswpg 6y ago
        also, the dictionary definition of 'defund' means "to withdraw funding from" if you wanted to campaign on partially defunding the police, then you'd get a different reaction. i'm not aware of any previous major political movements which used the slogan 'defund X' to mean 'partially reduce funding to, but continue to support sufficiently to ensure proper functioning of X" so if (a) defund doesn't imply "partially reduce funding" and (b) the word defund has not historically been used that way and (c) plenty of activists say "literally abolish the police" [1] then if people are failing to interpret it the way you'd like, the burden is on proponents to have a better slogan to communicate their message [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...
alasdair_ 6y ago
I wonder if this is 81% of black Americans, or "81% of black Americans who had both the time and inclination to fill out a targeted web survey/ answer a landline phone call related to policing" I know polls claim to correct for this, but if even the census, mandated by the constitution and backed by federal law and billions of dollars, can significantly under-count black and Latino Americans, I'd be curious to see how well Gallup can do. All this said, I DO think the majority of people (regardless of their relative melanin levels) would like to see more police in their neighborhoods, with the giant caveat that it's more than simple numbers in most people's minds. Be wary on conflating a general desire for more police with specific acceptance of current policing.
- kelnos 6y ago
  > 81% of black Americans who had both the time and inclination to fill out a targeted web survey/ answer a landline phone call Well, yes, that's basically how every poll works. The pollsters come up with what they think is a representative sample population, they send out surveys, some people respond, some don't.
  - iso1210 6y ago
    Assuming it's similar polling to the UK there are all sorts of weighting and balancing to get truly representative samples within a margin of error. Where the system is weakest is in the questions asked, as explained by Yes Prime Minister https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA I can't see the tables gallup produced to make their claim, without those I can't see why it's of any interest.
- vidarh 6y ago
  Notably, saying yes to more police does not imply being happy with the police. It implies merely seeing more police as at least marginally less likely to do harm than the criminals they'd displace. That's a very low bar to clear.
ops 6y ago
I wish there were fewer police responding to and investigating bank robberies (in my area).
tossawayonphine 6y ago
Is there
tompccs 6y ago
This is a survey by a respected polling company with an overwhelming result that goes against what is clearly the preferred narrative of most people on this site. Naturally, the most upvotes comments are people countering it with anecdotes. I thought people here we were meant to be smart enough to avoid confirmation bias?
- danaos 6y ago
  I don't believe that being "smart" inhibits confirmation bias, as it's an inherent human trait that our brains have evolved into.
  - cringepirate 6y ago
    Being smart makes confirmation bias worse because you can reason yourself into believing your confirmation bias away.
- truthwhisperer 6y ago
  You make a mistake. Smart does not mean street or society wise. You can be regarded as very smart because you are able to solve a math problem but you can't even have a normal conversation on the street or see the difference between male/female gender. Most people live in the tech bubble. Artificial world high wages and don't suffer the daily stress from average Joe and the criminal activities on the street. They tend to believe that their artificial world with well defined "true" or "false" statements can be applied on the average dynamic changing society.
- m0zg 6y ago
  This was clear right from the outset too. Upper middle class white people in "nice" neighborhoods don't even interact with police. I interacted with a police officer a grand total of 3 times in the last 20 years: one traffic citation, one traffic ticket (missing front plate on the car - deserved), and an officer stopped by after someone broke into our mailbox and asked if I'd press charges (I said I would, but they never found the perp). Compare that to a bad neighborhood in e.g. Chicago or Detroit where the situation is worse than in Kabul, and without constant, heavy, aggressive police presence a lot more people will be murdered. The belief that we do not need police and that a "social worker" is sufficient in e.g. Chicago is what someone has astutely called a "luxury belief", a modern equivalent of "let them eat cake". It comes from the tower so ivory, you can't look at it without hurting your eyes in broad daylight.
habosa 6y ago
Since many people here are not discussing the actual article, let me copy-paste the author's conclusion: > It's not so much the volume of interactions Black Americans have with the police that troubles them or differentiates them from other racial groups, but rather the quality of those interactions. > Most Black Americans want the police to spend at least as much time in their area as they currently do, indicating that they value the need for the service that police provide. However, that exposure comes with more trepidation for Black than White or Hispanic Americans about what they might experience in a police encounter. And those harboring the least confidence that they will be treated well, or who have had negative encounters in the past, are much more likely to want the police presence curtailed.
dvh1990 6y ago
I'm not American so I can't know, but how much police presence is "right" in your opinion? Surely no police sounds like a bad thing, doesn't it?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
paulintrognon 6y ago
I believe what one want is not no police, but rather a non-racist, fair, police. Maybe I missed something, but imho the protests are not for the removal of police, but rather for a police you can trust and rely on, regardless of your look.
- dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
  Is the slogan "defund the police" helpful in this case?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
burntbridge 6y ago
This seems like a massive vote of no confidence in policing. A massive 19% of black Americans would like to see less police. i.e. just take their chances. Imagine this in the context of other essential services i.e. 19% of people wanted less hospitals or ambulances.
- qPM9l3XJrF 6y ago
  "A massive 19% of black Americans would like to see less police. i.e. just take their chances." "A massive 19% of overweight Americans would like to eat less food. i.e. just starve." Suppose there were police hanging out in front of your door all day, and you said you wanted to see less police. Does that mean you want to "just take your chances"? The question is what the threshold should be before cops feel justified in coming by. Wanting the threshold higher doesn't mean you want it so high they never come.
jacquesm 6y ago
Of course they do. But they want police, people that are professional and courteous and a net positive for the society they operate in. Not the power tripping racist scum that seems to make up a good portion of the police in the USA (and; unfortunately; elsewhere as well). Police is a good thing when implemented properly, and a dangerous component that can easily get out of control when allowed to.
Havoc 6y ago
Anarchy is generally not much fun so yeah I can see that. Good policing > Bad policing > No policing
lucideer 6y ago
A few people mentioning that a "respected" polling company such as Gallup has methods to correct for potential bias in such polls. The Gallup Panel is 100,000 members, with weighting being applied "according to gender, age, race, Hispanic ethnicity, education and region". One of those weights is nullified in this headline, and it's also notable that there is no mention of any direct weighting for economic factors. Education and region could be considered proxies here, but given the sample and the already reduced weighting, this seems like a result on very weak footing.
baybal2 6y ago
A good precedent to study: Georgia's Ex-President Explains How He Abolished Police and Brought Down Crime > I Abolished and Rebuilt the Police. The United States Can Do the Same. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/11/abolish-police-georgia-brutality-crime/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/11/abolish-police-georgia-... > After Georgia’s Rose Revolution in 2004, I became president of a failed state. Law enforcement agencies functioned like criminal gangs. Officers demanded bribes, trafficked narcotics and weapons, and worked for political and business elites as a mercenary security force. Georgia was a textbook example of “predatory policing”: Police did not perform the basic responsibilities of ensuring public safety, instead enriching themselves and their patrons by extorting citizens. A 2003 survey found that just 2.3 percent of Georgians held a positive view of police. > Given that reality, police reform was not only a matter of restructuring institutions or implementing better policies. We had to change the mentality of a broken, cynical, and fearful society. > Before people could begin to trust the police, we—the new political elites—had to earn their trust. Challenging the status quo was not enough. We had to destroy it and build something better. > We replaced them with an entirely new force of Patrol Police, who had no background in law enforcement and thus no ties to old, corrupted elites. Recruits had to pass a competitive examination and complete a course in criminal procedure code. They were trained in persuasion, negotiation, and mediation skills to minimize the use of force. > In 2005 Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili fired "the entire traffic police force" of the Georgian National Police due to corruption, numbering around 30,000 police officers. ... Throughout the reformation, policemen were presented with new Volkswagen cars and navy blue uniforms, with "Police" written on the back. Law enforcement in Georgia (country) - Wikipedia
ipython 6y ago
That’s great news since neither major party candidate is proposing to “defund” the police.
zalkota 6y ago
Most people don’t want their local grocery store burned.
cityzen 6y ago
Wanting police presence != wanting the police to shoot them in the back or choke them, literally, to death. The poll also states: Fewer than one in five Black Americans feel very confident that the police in their area would treat them with courtesy and respect. While similar to the 24% of Asian Americans saying the same, it is markedly lower than the 40% of Hispanic Americans and the 56% of White Americans who feel this way. This could either stem from Black Americans' own negative experiences with the police or from their familiarity with people who have had negative encounters with law enforcement. Black americans deserve to enjoy the confidence that 56% of white americans do in terms of being treated with courtesy and respect.
jrm4 6y ago
This ought not be particularly difficult to understand. Black folks don't want the police to go away, we want the police to generally do the job they are hired for. But also, we don't have a big problem with the extreme rhetoric against the police because for years and years, in the face of overwhelming evidence of misconduct, there hasn't been meaningful reform. Desperate times, desperate measures.

459 points by apsec112 6y ago

This poll is either disingenuous or misguided - what percent of black Americans want better social services? The call the defund the police doesn’t end with taking money from the police, the goal is to be able to provide more specific services using other departments outside of law enforcement.

1123581321 6y ago
Why should we assume that this reasoning wasn’t factored in by the respondents?
- c0nducktr 6y ago
  Because the call to "defund the police" has been referenced implying it meant "get rid of police" and do nothing else? That's the whole pole... it's not implied that there will be other services provided to go along with the reduction in standard policing.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

war1025 6y ago

The whole "defund the police" movement feels very much in line with the "Luxury beliefs" [1] idea that has been floating around for the past year or so. [1] https://nypost.com/2019/08/17/luxury-beliefs-are-the-latest-status-symbol-for-rich-americans/ https://nypost.com/2019/08/17/luxury-beliefs-are-the-latest-...

NicolasGorden 6y ago
Wow, what an amazing article. I never thought of it this way. But it matches what I've noted in many people. Super interesting concept. Thanks for this mental mode of seeing this phenomena. I'm going to really think it over. Even if I end up rejecting it in favor of some other mental mode, it's still an amazingly interesting lens for looking at recent events.
ianleeclark 6y ago
> The whole "defund the police" movement feels very much in line with the "Luxury beliefs" Why do you believe this? It seems to me that reinvesting budgets spent on surplus humvees on more/better school counselors is a perfectly reasonable goal.
- war1025 6y ago
  > It seems to me that reinvesting budgets spent on surplus humvees on more/better school counselors is a perfectly reasonable goal. The level of "defund" people are advocating for varies pretty wildly. Yes, reallocating budget is perhaps a reasonable thing. A non trivial number of the protesters are advocating for complete elimination of the police though. Oddly enough, I'd expect the widespread riots that have continued all summer long will have the exact opposite effect in the medium to long term.
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    > the widespread riots that have continued all summer long Uh, what? No. Just, no.
    - war1025 6y ago
      The net effect of people hearing "Black Lives Matter protesters clashed with police again last night" on the news for an entire summer is going to be a giant step backwards for whatever BLM is actually trying to achieve. That is true whether or not the riots have actually been geographically widespread.
      - strathmeyer 6y ago
        I'm an American and have only seen the police rioting. Defunding the police is the most reasonable option I have heard in my lifetime. Seems like the perfect solution, there is nothing bad to say about it, it's opponents are left to make up "widespread rioting".
        6y ago
sneak 6y ago
> Another luxury belief is that religion is irrational or harmful. Members of the upper class are most likely to be atheists or non-religious. But they have the resources and access to thrive without the unifying social edifice of religion. Places of worship are often essential for the social fabric of poor communities. Denigrating the importance of religion harms the poor. Since when is human rationality “luxury”? This article just shot itself in the foot.
- Aerroon 6y ago
  I'm not so sure it did. The social fabric point is something that even comes up in HN discussions. Religion and religious activities are things that connect strangers and communities. That helps build social trust. With religion gone there isn't much positive that tends to replace it among poor purple.
- war1025 6y ago
  > Since when is human rationality “luxury”? Most people's interpretation of "human rationality" is little more than a religion of its own.

aortega 6y ago

I'm not from US and when I see people claim for abolition of police I can only imagine the world they live in, completely disconnected from reality. Seriously, abolishing police? Is this some kind of demolition-man-like future?

arkitaip 6y ago
Not being from the US is no excuse for being ignorant and arrogant on the matter.
- aortega 6y ago
  Then please explain why abolition of a basic public service would lead to better living conditions. Would you like to abolish water service or the army too?
- dang 6y ago
  Personal attacks will get you banned on HN. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
ianleeclark 6y ago
> I can only imagine the world they live in You know, you can go and read why they advocate for that position. You can do more than just imagine--more than just imprinting your own biases onto their position. It's just lazy.
rvz 6y ago
Well, we gave them the chance to create their own utopia in the CHAZ area and that became another stunning failure. It goes to show that realistically, they (who ever wants to defund the police) are really asking for an anarcho-communist utopia.
- TMWNN 6y ago
  > Well, we gave them the chance to create their own utopia in the CHAZ area and that became another stunning failure. I heard that during its existence, the six blocks of CHAZ were by capita the most dangerous place in the world, exceeding anywhere in South America or the Middle East.

staticassertion 6y ago

I'd like to see how this cuts by age. A lot of older folks I talk to see police very differently, and often say "You just don't know how things used to be before the police", which I think really misses what people are asking for ie: redistribution of grossly overbudgeted police departments to preventative measures like better schooling, community centers, and more subtle reactive measures like un-armed "police" (or whatever you want to call this new role). I also wonder if the question were phrased differently (and more accurately representing what is actually being asked for), more like "Would you support an N% cut to police budgets, which would come from X part of the police budget, to support preventative measures like social services?", if we'd see a different response.

questionmarks 6y ago
when was "before the police"?
- staticassertion 6y ago
  Often they're referring to New York in the 60s/70s. Of course, there were absolutely police back then. But they largely attribute the increase in their feeling of personal safety with a larger investment in police.
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    Statistically crime in NY peaked in 1990.
    - austhrow743 6y ago
      I would expect crime statistics to peak shortly after a surge in policing but not actual crime.
      - username90 6y ago
        Murders peaked 1990 and not a lot of murders goes unreported. Then in just a few years NYC went from being one of the most murderous cities in USA to one of the least murderous cities.

venantius 6y ago

This headline buries the more material difference outlined in the article, which is the major difference between black/Asian Americans and other groups in how likely they feel they are to be treated with respect by the police in any individual encounter.

hundchenkatze 6y ago

It's not surprising that people still want the police around... they just want to be treated equally when they interact with the police.

throwaway5752 6y ago

You can want a police presence, you can also want those police to be properly trained in use of force, and you can want a more robust policy for dealing with emergent mental health issues all at the same time. None of those are exclusive of each other. If I were a police officer or worked in that area of policy, I would be appalled at the degree of correlation that the more frequently people reported seeing the police, the less they wanted to see police around. This is yet another false and divisive zero sum framing of a complex issue. Everyone deserves quality police service from their municipal and state authorities, police deserve accountability for colleagues that break the law and put good police officers at risk, and everyone deserves policing that is unbiased and increases public safety regardless of race, creed, or any other factor.

glenda 6y ago
Police departments and city governments are plagued with corruption, you cannot expect corrupt institution the be capable of fixing itself.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]

kgraves 6y ago

This will only exacerbate the main issue [0]. [0] https://news.gallup.com/poll/316247/black-americans-police-encounters-not-positive.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/316247/black-americans-police-e...

nprz 6y ago

To improve police presence and interactions wouldn't you actually want to fund the police and make sure they go through proper training to ensure they can handle difficult situations? A lack of funding would probably result in a worse trained police force, no?

dx87 6y ago
Pretty much. I keep seeing people here use the multi-year police academies in Europe as an example of why they have less issues with police brutality, while at the same time saying that the police in the USA need less resources.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  The police chief of the city in which I live, a suburb of Dallas, Texas, was asked why we haven't seen the sort of cases here that we've seen in Dallas and even other suburbs. His response was that we require all applicants to have a bachelors degree. Could be correlation rather than causation, of course.
  - refurb 6y ago
    The same city where a police officer broke into the wrong apartment, thinking it was hers, and killed the man inside? Not sure I'd be pointing fingers if I were the Dallas PD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean
  - refurb 6y ago
    The same city where a police officer broke into the wrong apartment, thinking it was hers, and killed an unarmed black man inside? Not sure I'd be pointing fingers if I were the Dallas PD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean
    - pwinnski 6y ago
      Reading comprehension: I said I live in "a suburb of Dallas," while the incident you reference happened in the city of Dallas itself. I even drew a contrast between my city and what "we've seen in Dallas and even other suburbs." You'd have been better off noticing the contrast I drew and talking about McKinney, another suburb of Dallas, in which a cop infamously stormed onto the scene and threw 15-year-old girl in a bikini to the concrete and pointed a gun at a teenage boy who objected.[0] But no, not that suburb either. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Texas_pool_party_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Texas_pool_party_incident

dx87 6y ago

This shouldn't be a suprise. Some people like to pretend that higher crime rates in some areas is strictly due to higher police presence, but it's clearly not the case. I remember after the protests in Baltimore from FreddIe Gray, the police were told to have a much smaller presence, and not do as much proactive policing. It wasn't long before the people who actually live in those neighborhoods were complaining about the increasing crime rate due to a smaller police presence.

TMWNN 6y ago
>I remember after the protests in Baltimore from FreddIe Gray, the police were told to have a much smaller presence, and not do as much proactive policing. It wasn't long before the people who actually live in those neighborhoods were complaining about the increasing crime rate due to a smaller police presence. In a city with a black mayor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephanie_Rawlings-Blake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephanie_Rawlings-Blake), black police chief (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Batts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Batts), 50% black police force (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Police_Department#African_Americans_in_the_department https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Police_Department#Af...), and black district attorney (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Mosby https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_Mosby), when black suspect Freddie Gray dies in police custody in unclear circumstances, it's obviously because of racism so feel free to riot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Baltimore_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Baltimore_protests). (The accused officers—three black, three white—were acquitted by a black judge (http://www.courts.state.md.us/publications/jmonline/2012spring/inbrief.html http://www.courts.state.md.us/publications/jmonline/2012spri... .) Reminder of Baltimore events during the original rioting: * Baltimore Looters Take Everything But a Family’s Pennies / Chinese store-owners and a soldier who fought in Afghanistan both return to find their hometown transformed into a war zone. (https://np.reddit.com/r/news/comments/34cu4j/baltimore_looters_take_everything_but_a_familys/ https://np.reddit.com/r/news/comments/34cu4j/baltimore_loote...) * (Deleted by /r/baltimore moderators on Reddit) Baltimore gang members directed looters away from black-owned businesses. "Instead, he said, they pointed the rioters toward Chinese- and Arab-owned stores." (https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/34ek59/baltimore_gang_members_directed_looters_away_from/ https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/34ek59/baltimore_...) * City Paper calls the purse incident "a dumb distraction". Closest thing to an apology/retraction as is likely from the publication (https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/347f0d/city_paper_calls_the_purse_incident_a_dumb/ https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/347f0d/city_paper...) and, inevitably, what you mentioned: * Baltimore killings soar to a level unseen in 43 years. "Baltimore reached a grim milestone on Friday, three months after riots erupted in response to the death of Freddie Gray in police custody: With 45 homicides in July, the city has seen more bloodshed in a single month than it has in 43 years." (https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/3fcawm/baltimore_killings_soar_to_a_level_unseen_in_43/ https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/3fcawm/baltimore_...) PS - I was banned from /r/baltimore after posting the above comment (https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/4koc6n/officer_nero_found_not_guilty_by_judge_barry/d3gi2ih?context=3 https://np.reddit.com/r/baltimore/comments/4koc6n/officer_ne...) in a similar thread discussing earlier acquittals. No reason given.

readams 6y ago

This is why the defund the police people really need a better slogan. You can argue that the police should work differently than they do, but it's just obviously stupid to not have police.

GaryNumanVevo 6y ago
"Defund the police" refers to trimming bloated budgets and fully funding other programs that reduce crime such as funding inner city schools, child care for poor parents, etc.
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
  Anecdotally from seeing discussions online and interviews on the news (which to be fair has some sample bias that will emphasize more extreme beliefs), a non negligible number of people who say "Defund the police" believe that police should be abolished.
  - jeffbee 6y ago
    There's a case to be made that while a city needs police it maybe doesn't need _these_ police. At some point an organization is so corrupt that it cannot be reformed. I have no problem with plans to reshape law enforcement through complete dissolution of current police departments.
- cwhiz 6y ago
  Then come up with a different slogan? There isn’t any ambiguity in the word “defund.”
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- geodel 6y ago
  Seems like 'Agile' then. Everytime agile bullshittery falls flat someone invariably comes to explain how people are not doing agile right.
- 6y ago

pzone 6y ago

This is even more pronounced among so-called fragile communities, where 95% of black residents want to retain police presence, and in the Chicago area, 68% want increased police presence. https://news.gallup.com/poll/257798/low-trust-police-complicates-crime-problem-chicago.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/257798/low-trust-police-complic... On the other hand, a majority in these communities also say that people have a negative view of the police there.

pwinnski 6y ago

Weird that the focus is on that one question, rather than on "Confidence About Receiving Positive Treatment by Police"

foolinaround 6y ago

Many comments talk about training of the police. there needs to be basic training for citizens as well. To recognize when to listen to a police officer, how to identify if the officer steps out of line, what rights are afforded, etc. This lecture from a law school professor was very enlightening to me : NEVER TALK TO THE POLICE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

aaomidi 6y ago
> there needs to be basic training for citizens as well. No. > To recognize when to listen to a police officer, how to identify if the officer steps out of line, what rights are afforded, etc. Sure, but no. The police have all the responsibility to de-escalate situations. If they're not doing that then they're the ones in the wrong.
- jojobas 6y ago
  >If they're not doing that then they're the ones in the wrong. Does that apply if a suspect pulls a gun or a knife on them? De-escalation clearly failed, must be their fault.
- tomnipotent 6y ago
  > The police have all the responsibility to de-escalate situations This is an absolutely naive position to take. Police have no such obligation, and citizens should absolutely be educated and informed on their rights.
  - Lammy 6y ago
    There's even worse legal precedent than not being responsible for de-escalation: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/us/parkland-shooting-lawsuit-ruling-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/us/parkland-shooting-laws...
    - foolinaround 6y ago

dragonwriter 6y ago

Sure, no one has suggested police departments as currently constituted should both exist and withdraw from Black neighborhoods, except for police unions applying terrorist negotiating tactics. More relevant questions (With regard to “defund the police”): should significant funding and responsibility be redirected from the police to preventive and specialized responsive social services? (With regard to “dismantle/abolish the police”:) Should centralized all-purpose paramilitary local law enforcement agencies be disbanded, with law enforcement responsibilities distributed within specialized agencies whose agents (both armed law enforcement and other) would be domain specialists as well (for law enforcement officers) trained in law enforcement (which also involves transferring non-law enforcement responsibilities and funding more to non-law-enforcememt units.)

cheez 6y ago
I walk with the dog and sometimes the kids every day, so I see police patrolling around. Had an interesting conversation the other day with the police officer: - So officer, how have things changed since covid? - Sir, you won't believe the stuff I get called for. Getting teenagers off their cell phones, wife angry that husband didn't do his share of the chores - What about what people associate with "crime"? - Down. As crime declines overall (it has been for many years now), I believe we really need to rethink the jobs we ask police officers to do. They are hammers and they go into situations that don't require hammering and bad things happen.
- chmod600 6y ago
  There is a spike in violent crime in many cities.
  - cheez 6y ago
    Protests are a temporary thing. Our area has none.
darawk 6y ago
Ya, that's what anyone intelligent says any time "defund the police" is mentioned (and I completely agree with it, btw). But they should probably choose another slogan if that's what they actually mean. "Defund" in the context of government policy generally means to eliminate via the funding mechanism.

adamnemecek 6y ago

One of the problems is how police education happens. In Europe, police education starts in high school, you go to a specialized high school for it (and then continue to police college). As a result, the police are much more skilled and professional. You start by studying the law. I don't think you even shoot a gun before you know the law very well. It's unheard of that the police would say shoot a drunk guy with a knife. The way it happens, is that one of the cops who has more martial arts experience (which is one of the things the cops study, which they can do since their education takes much longer) puts on a protective vest and physically immobilizes the drunk. In the US, the same situation is very likely to end up with the the drunk having more holes in him than a colander. What's also funny to me is the extent to which police in the US tackle people. Tackling someone is like the worst idea in the world.

CyberDildonics 6y ago

I wonder how many black americans want body cameras to be mandatory and investigated if they are turned off.

kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
I read several years ago that policing unions were initially reluctant to wear body cameras but are now very much in favour as they usually provide evidence that supports the police officer's statement of events.

newacct583 6y ago

This is a horribly spun headline. The question was not whether to "retain presence", it was "Would you rather the police spend more time, the same amount of time or less time as they currently spend in your area?". And unsurprisingly the answers split with roughly half the respondents saying "same" and the remainder split between "more" and "less". Which is about what you get with any status-quo question like this. The headline, being phrased along the lines of a protest demand, makes this sound like a majority disagreeing with the premise of the BLM movement, when that's not the question at all. (It is worth noting, though, that the answers anticorrelate with the amount of actual police work! The more people see the police, the LESS they want them around.)

kingkawn 6y ago

Irrelevant misrepresentation of what “defund the police” is asking for

bradleyjg 6y ago

It always annoys me when some random unelected, unselected person or people purport to speak on behalf of a community. Half the time the self appointed spokesperson isn’t even in the relevant community.

awakeasleep 6y ago
Or the “community” is a fiction itself.
yosito 6y ago
Which is why these polls are important ways to ask the community what it wants.

rhegart 6y ago

Upper middle class morons who’ve never faced hardships or seen true evil, just lived in their bubble want to feel important and hyper tribalism reinforced via social media anger bubbles makes it a waste of time to have any nuance or discussions. These mobs are ruining primarily low income and minority lives while blue check marks rile them up and media gaslights and fans the flames. Every single city which has had these riots has seen a dramatic upshot in violent crime and economy ravaged. None have recovered since Ferguson

yters 6y ago
also a lot of the riotets are young, upper middle class, white males what says black lives matter better than trashing their neighborhoods? read ellison's invisible man written in 1950s to see how long white people have been exploiting African Americans in this way!
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  A number that have been caught actually rioting are white supremacists seeking to provoke a race war, and at least some caught encouraging it online (haven't seen any caught actually rioting)have been specifically police officers that are also white supremacists seeking to provoke a race war.
  - shitgoose 6y ago
    Is that a joke or you believe in this?
  - lawnchair_larry 6y ago
    Surely you didn’t actually fall for that BS line.
  - yters 6y ago
    just look at any photos of the protests and count the white to black ratio if those are all far righters white rioters, this is even more confusing!!! plot twist, they are actually anti fa claiming to be alt right and start a race war so there is more police brutality and there is more evidence to call for defunding police !$$!

InfiniteRand 6y ago

There's a good case for defunding the police in parts of the country where crime has gone down, but my impression is the worse police-citizen interactions happen in areas where the police are stretched thin (maybe I'm wrong about this), moreover, when you are trying to reform a provider of an essential service, it is typically better to provide a carrot and a stick (see education reform for instance), otherwise not only do you get organized resistance to the reforms but you also reduce morale. Good morale is important, not only for good performance, but for reducing the siege mentality among the police. Requiring people to make an extra effort to do their job better (even if the level of better is still below average), while cutting their pay (even if their pay probably should not be as high as it is), seems like setting yourself up for failure.

shirakawasuna 6y ago
Defunding is a two-part task: 1. Balkanize police into distinct departments with different training and oversight. The police are tasked with far too many jobs at once and don't do a very good job at any of them. 2. Redirect some portion of funding to community development and fighting poverty, i.e. crime prevention. Instead of buying military surplus equipment, create after-school programs, ensure that kids get fed, etc. If a police department is stretched thin, balkanizing should help with that. Having police doing too many things is a big part of the problem. The police resist reforms constantly. They protect themselves and lie brazenly with little consequence. While morale is certainly something to consider, it's not the elephant in the room. There must be real consequences, and for that there must be real mechanisms of oversight, firing, and prosecution of cops and those who act in bad faith to protect fellow cops.
- athms 6y ago
  Police don't buy surplus military equipment. The equipment is free, the police only pay for shipping.
  - shirakawasuna 6y ago
    The police often pay for shipping, maintenance, and kitting out the equipment. They might receive a free stripped-down M16, but they still use their own budgets to make it tacticool. Just an optic and light run $1k or so.

noodlesUK 6y ago

Having a demilitarised civilian police force maintaining order through the consent of the public has been a thing since the 1820s. I’d like to see how Americans would respond to a police force formed with a modern version of the peelian principles as its guiding rule set. In my opinion a huge amount of damage has been done by the deliberate choice to act aggressively and quell the protests by ever greater force, and that damage has been done to the respect of the legitimacy of the power police forces hold. People aren’t going to cooperate with a force they see as an armed occupier. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

chroem- 6y ago
A point that often gets lost in the discussion is that the United States, having no gendarmarie [1], has a police force that is less militarized than many European nations. Gendarmaries are literally a branch of the armed forces for the sole purpose of internal policing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmarie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gendarmarie
- samatman 6y ago
  Is Gendarmarie French for National Guard or something?
  - chroem- 6y ago
    No, it's a different concept. The gendarmarie is specifically internal military police. The Gendarmerie Nationale [1] and Garde Nationale [2] are separate entities. There is some minor overlap, but they have fundamentally different mission statements. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gendarmerie [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_(France) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_(France) This pattern is mirrored across other European nations as well, and is not exclusive to France.
- anigbrowl 6y ago
  This is true in a de jure sense, but nonsensical in a de facto sense. Simply comparing video footage of riots in france vs the US shows the US police police to be considerably more heavily equipped and aggressively inclined.

throwawaysea 6y ago

The rioting mobs who are blindly against police and using recent tragedies for broader politics leverage have gotten out of control. It was bad enough that their proposals for defunding are not what any community wants, as this Gallup poll shows. But beyond the reckless and dangerous calls for defunding, the violence/theft/arson from the rioters and far-left groups that back them is just completely unacceptable. Just yesterday some of these rioters sealed in Seattle police using quick dry concrete while setting the precinct on fire: https://mynorthwest.com/2114190/rantz-rioters-burn-seattle-police-alive-sealed-door/ https://mynorthwest.com/2114190/rantz-rioters-burn-seattle-p...

leafboi 6y ago

I wonder how many people here have personally been wrongfully shot at by the police versus just watching it on the media? I for one have been shot at several times after being mistaken for carrying a gun when it was really just groceries. Even I don't want the police defunded.

eanzenberg 6y ago

It’s pretty racist to assume most blacks are in poverty, are not interested in community safety, or are monolithic in their beliefs. You’d be surprised how many have turned to conservatism after the recent showcases from the left political structure.

aww_dang 6y ago
'Racism' has become a politically weaponized one-way street in popular discourse. Double standards abound. Take a look at some of the reactions to black speakers at the Republican National Convention. Ultra-PC Twitter had some very un-PC racial pejoratives trending in regards to these speakers. When you start from a point of compassion you can't end up in this place. The intolerance of differing views baffles me. From my eyes, it looks like holier-than-thou guilt projection and condescension. People have their own agency. Not everyone identifies as a victim and lives through that paradigm. You're right to observe racism in this narrative. I look in the rear view mirror at the US where largely white crowds are destroying the US for the sake of 'racial justice'. Who asked for that? Part of this may be due to the tools political parties use to observe their markets. Everyone becomes a demographic to be marketed to. Victims need saving and politicians would love to paint themselves as heroes. Pay no mind if the rationalizations for their heroics are racist. In fact if you question that, you're probably a racist in their view. Even a self-hating one according to the woke-brigade. No thanks.

acjohnson55 6y ago

Black person here. Generally speaking, we just want swift accountability when police do fucked up things.

zaroth 6y ago

It’s probably a mistake to even try to comment here, it feels like wading into a battlefield where words don’t even mean what they say. This survey tells us what I thought we already knew for decades now. Black Americans, particular those living in high poverty and high crime areas, overwhelmingly support increased police funding and increased police presence in their communities. While some protestors who are carrying signs like “Defund the police” may not take the slogan at face value, the ones spray painting “Fuck 12” or “ACAB” across their local courthouse certainly do, and they do not speak for the people responding to this Gallup poll. The literal attacks on police (and police infrastructure) appear to be an intentional destabilization effort in order to neuter policing capacity within a community, resulting in increased violent crime (i.e. the “Fergusson effect”). While I think there are many well-meaning and good intentioned peaceful protestors that initially joined with “BLM”, the “Defund the police” movement has been hijacked by radical anarchists who professionally organize riots (there’s another term for this I won’t use) and absolutely believe police should be abolished. National public perception of BLM which initially spiked positively after Floyd has been decreasing and overall become much more polarized. [1] [1] - https://civiqs.com/results/black_lives_matter?annotations=true&uncertainty=true&zoomIn=true https://civiqs.com/results/black_lives_matter?annotations=tr...

john_moscow 6y ago
The media is trying to portray it as a stand-off between Black and White, but I think it's more of a class thing: people that think their position in the society is fair vs. those who are unhappy with it. I would say, there are 4 groups involved: 1. Hard-working Blacks. Against gangs. Against violence. Pro police. Pro civilization. Don't really hate Whites. 2. Short-sighted Blacks. Pro gangs. Against education. Don't have a high-paying job. Plenty of free time. Often substance abuse. Unhappy with their lives. Feel unfairly disadvantaged over Whites. 3. Hard-working Whites. Pretty much, the same as hard-working Blacks. Reasonable people are reasonable regardless of their race. 4. Short-sighted Whites. Unhappy with their lives. Didn't put much effort in education, mastering hard skills, etc. Do have a better starting point than the short-sighted Blacks due to their parents' efforts. Feel unfairly advantaged over group #2 and jealous towards group #3. The thing is, groups #1 and #3 are busy with their work, while groups #2 and #4 are extremely vocal. So the click-driven media makes it look like there's a problem between the Black and Whites. While, in reality, groups #1 and #3 (a.k.a. silent majority) are happily working together, while groups #2 and #4 are stirring up the pot.

fasteddie31003 6y ago

Unfortunately, The whole defund the police movement is going to backfire on the Democrats. Safety is pretty important in Maslow's hierarchy of needs. If Democrats get branded as the anti-police party they are going to lose move votes then they are going to gain by the vocal minority opinion.

donor20 6y ago
No question - trump is the absolute worst republican you could run it seems. Short run I don't think republicans have a chance. But feeling / being safe is CRITICAL to folks - they will accept dictatorships to gain safety. The whole abolish ICE / defund the police type platform seems a loser long run for the dems. I'm surprised Biden didn't make a stronger statement distancing himself form this. The violence is really toxic. I'm a reliable dem voter and significant dem donor this cycle, but if you actually live or have lived in "tough" neighborhoods with higher crime (ie, have had your car broken into multiple times, stolen, experienced violence) then you really do start to prioritize safety.
- istjohn 6y ago
  Yes, safety is important. George Floyd should have been able to feel safe. Breonna Taylor should have been safe in her bed. Who's violence are we talking about here? What does high crime neighborhoods have to do with police not killing people wantonly?
  - txsoftwaredev 6y ago
    If you follow the instructions of the police officers you have little reason to not feel safe. If you fight, resist, run etc. you've given up your rights to safety.
    - breakfastduck 6y ago
      Essentially - you should follow all orders given by police officers, whether they are justified or not. If you don't, you forfeit all rights to be alive. How on earth can you possibly say that? Not following the orders of some jacked up power trip officer means you've given up all your rights to be alive? This has to be the worst take in the entire thread.

mykowebhn 6y ago

Why is this allowed on HN, but articles in support of BLM are not? Also, defunding police does not mean completely getting rid of police. Seriously, why is this article allowed whereas others showing another viewpoint in support of BLM not? This is a real question.

ponsin 6y ago
When I read "defund the police" I assume that they mean what they are saying. What do you think is meant by the phrase "defund planned Parenthood"?

Thorentis 6y ago

I wonder what surprises this will lead to in the upcoming election, where the Democrats have firmly placed themselves on the side of those wanting to defund the police.

PascLeRasc 6y ago
I wish that was true, but Biden has explicitly said that he wants to increase police funding: https://www.vox.com/2020/8/25/21400782/rnc-republicans-democrats-defund-police-joe-biden-black-lives-matter https://www.vox.com/2020/8/25/21400782/rnc-republicans-democ...
SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
I was shocked to see them take that position in any seriousness. I think as more places burn they are starting to see it’s a losing narrative. It you are right, it’s the side they took. Bad word choice from the get go though. Should have been reform the police, they went to hard and landed on defund.
- shirakawasuna 6y ago
  Defunding is a solution because reform has never worked.
  - refurb 6y ago
    Should have picked a better slogan.
    - shirakawasuna 6y ago
      I think people's lives matter more than critiquing a slogan.
jeffbee 6y ago
You can tell Democrats hate cops by the way they put a former district attorney and state attorney general on their ticket.

andromeduck 6y ago

So I know quite a few people SF who are both anti police and anti second ammendment and it just makes absolutely no sense to me. The craziest thing is half of them seemed to be on the marxist/anti-capitalist spectrum too and I always wondered what their plan would be to enforce those ideals without police or an individaual mandate like the 2'nd ammendment. It boggles the mind.

adventured 6y ago
> I always wondered what their plan would be to enforce those ideals without police The plan is to replace the police with their own ideology enforcement system, which every totalitarian ideology does by necessity. You can already see this in action. The defund the police proponents are aggressively pushing for building new de facto police structures that they would control (they won't call them police). The goal, as in all Marxist outcomes (happens every single time without exception), is to replace the existing power structures with new power structures that are aligned to the Marxist outcome they're pursuing and that will help enforce their aims and beliefs. The new police would be involved in things such as cultural & behavioral enforcement for example, they would not be narrowly focused on crime, they would be tasked at assisting the revolution. They don't want to remove the police per se. They want to replace them. They want their own enforcement systems put into place, that they can control and that are aligned to their ideology. It is a cultural revolution attempt, plain and simple. This is why Antifa is at the center of the riots, they aren't anti-authoritarian, they're merely supposedly anti-Fascism, and they're universally pro-Marxism and openly violent (which tells you everything you need to know); it's nothing more than the escalation of the classic left vs right conflict, with Antifa being a violent militia wing for the extreme left.
- andromeduck 6y ago
  I suppose your right. Sometimes I feel like we're living the 30's right now.
- kqvamxurcagg 6y ago
  Good analysis. I suspect you're right, the funding would be diverted from traditional crime investigations to cultural and behavioural enforcement.

newbie789 6y ago

This is fascinating because I am myself half black, lived in many communities of mixed demographics and never once heard a friend (of any race) say they want more police at all, ever. I guess I also don't know anybody who has done a gallup poll or anybody that knows anybody who has ever done a gallup poll in their lives so who knows? Edit: I don't know how or where these are conducted, or their exact phrasing of their questions, but I'm very curious about that. Because, some rural areas in America have a "posse" system where volunteers get to ride around armed, sometimes outfitted (by taxpayer money) with bulletproof vests and big stickers for their cars showing their semi-official affiliation with the police (or sheriff's department). On the record, they're only supposed to observe or report yet in practice I'd question why it's crucial in some places to outfit posses with bulletproof through taxpayer money in that case, especially in places that have a very low crime rate? I only bring this up because if I wanted to tilt a poll, I'd ask folks in areas where this is a possibility, where asking about a reduction in police force implies an increase in these somewhat-sanctioned vigilantes. You wouldn't even have to include it in the question, you'd just have to ask somebody standing in the right spot.

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pwim 6y ago
From the article, the question asked was "Would you rather the police spend more time, the same amount of time or less time as they currently spend in your area?", and was "administered by web in English and conducted as part of the newly launched Gallup Center on Black Voices". There's more information on how Gallup conducts polls more generally here: https://www.gallup.com/174158/gallup-panel-methodology.aspx https://www.gallup.com/174158/gallup-panel-methodology.aspx.
djsumdog 6y ago
I hated the police when I was younger and thought we'd be better with fewer police. I don't believe that anymore. The emergence of body cameras are amazing because they show just how bad we're constantly being lied to. YouTubers like Donut Operator really opened my eyes. I think back to my younger years and all the ways I've seen police go out of their way to do things they didn't need to. I've seem some do really shitty things too ... but overall, I think we need to remember they're human beings. We're all just human beings, and most people join the police because they want to do the right thing. If many of these problem cities, police forces are composed of a large number of minorities too. Especially during this time, let's try to remember we're all humans here.

fareesh 6y ago

Not sure why this is on HN - can someone fill me in? Maybe I'm missing something

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
Defunding the police has become very popular in the circles many HN commenters frequent, so it's interesting to realize just how niche of a position it is.
- fareesh 6y ago
  Are there any good empirical arguments for it?

fasteddie31003 6y ago

Listen live to our county falling apart in Kenosha WI https://www.broadcastify.com/webPlayer/30891 https://www.broadcastify.com/webPlayer/30891

istjohn 6y ago

But you don't have to read far to get to this bit: > Fewer than one in five Black Americans feel very confident that the police in their area would treat them with courtesy and respect. While similar to the 24% of Asian Americans saying the same, it is markedly lower than the 40% of Hispanic Americans and the 56% of White Americans who feel this way. This could either stem from Black Americans' own negative experiences with the police or from their familiarity with people who have had negative encounters with law enforcement. Most Americans (52%) according to the poll, are not very confident that police would treat them with courtesy and respect. That's shameful if you ask me. The power that police wield makes it all the more important that they are respectful in their interactions with the public. But we wouldn't accept that kind of performance in any private business front of house role

refurb 6y ago
Considering the nature of many (not most) police interactions (i.e. as a suspect, even just a speeding ticket) what would you consider a reasonable target for "courteous and respectful" interactions? 100%? I would just find it hard to believe if I've just committed a crime and been arrested by the police that I would be able to describe the interaction as "courteous and respectful", even if the police did everything right.
- throwawaygh 6y ago
  I’ve never interacted with police in the context of having committed or having been suspected of a crime, other than traffic stops. Traffic stops are the only pleasant interactions I’ve had with on-the-clock officers (but of course not all of those have been respectful). Since fewer than 52% of Americans have been convicted of a crime, I assume this is a fairly common perspective.
- edanm 6y ago
  > Considering the nature of many (not most) police interactions (i.e. as a suspect, even just a speeding ticket) what would you consider a reasonable target for "courteous and respectful" interactions? 100%? Yes. I'd aim for 100%. Obviously that's hard to reach, but I think it's certainly possible to do better than 50%. (Though note that it was presumed 50%, not actual measured 50%, so it's more about perception than necessarily about reality). As you allude to, many interactions with the police are not in the context of getting arrested. You might be the one to call the police if you need them for whatever reason, you might be just an onlooker, you might randomly see police moving around your city for whatever reason. But even in cases like speeding tickets, there's no reason for the police not to be courteous and respectful, so long as you behave that way.

dmode 6y ago

I don’t understand the point of this survey. They could have also asked whether people think water is wet or not. The debate here is not about police presence, but (1) what type of presence and (2) what the alternatives are. Absence an alternative, of course people will say they want the same police presence. I would be curious to see if the question is framed along the lines of “Do you want 10% of police budget be spend on mental health” or “Do you want 15% of police budget on rehabilitation and integration”, on housing, on schools etc. That will tell is what the trade offs are and what people feel about those trade-offs

weswpg 6y ago
this wouldn't happen if it weren't for the slogan "abolish the police" proponents need to accept that it's just bad framing
- bshoemaker 6y ago
  The slogan is defund. I.e. reduce
  - brendoelfrendo 6y ago
    Perhaps the "defund" is so entrenched in the conservative playbook as meaning "eliminate by starving of operating capital" that using "defund" to mean "free up capital to be re-prioritized to other social causes" simply seems nonintuitive or alien to them.
    - weswpg 6y ago
      also, the dictionary definition of 'defund' means "to withdraw funding from" if you wanted to campaign on partially defunding the police, then you'd get a different reaction. i'm not aware of any previous major political movements which used the slogan 'defund X' to mean 'partially reduce funding to, but continue to support sufficiently to ensure proper functioning of X" so if (a) defund doesn't imply "partially reduce funding" and (b) the word defund has not historically been used that way and (c) plenty of activists say "literally abolish the police" [1] then if people are failing to interpret it the way you'd like, the burden is on proponents to have a better slogan to communicate their message [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abol...

alasdair_ 6y ago

I wonder if this is 81% of black Americans, or "81% of black Americans who had both the time and inclination to fill out a targeted web survey/ answer a landline phone call related to policing" I know polls claim to correct for this, but if even the census, mandated by the constitution and backed by federal law and billions of dollars, can significantly under-count black and Latino Americans, I'd be curious to see how well Gallup can do. All this said, I DO think the majority of people (regardless of their relative melanin levels) would like to see more police in their neighborhoods, with the giant caveat that it's more than simple numbers in most people's minds. Be wary on conflating a general desire for more police with specific acceptance of current policing.

kelnos 6y ago
> 81% of black Americans who had both the time and inclination to fill out a targeted web survey/ answer a landline phone call Well, yes, that's basically how every poll works. The pollsters come up with what they think is a representative sample population, they send out surveys, some people respond, some don't.
- iso1210 6y ago
  Assuming it's similar polling to the UK there are all sorts of weighting and balancing to get truly representative samples within a margin of error. Where the system is weakest is in the questions asked, as explained by Yes Prime Minister https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA I can't see the tables gallup produced to make their claim, without those I can't see why it's of any interest.
vidarh 6y ago
Notably, saying yes to more police does not imply being happy with the police. It implies merely seeing more police as at least marginally less likely to do harm than the criminals they'd displace. That's a very low bar to clear.

ops 6y ago

I wish there were fewer police responding to and investigating bank robberies (in my area).

tossawayonphine 6y ago

Is there

tompccs 6y ago

This is a survey by a respected polling company with an overwhelming result that goes against what is clearly the preferred narrative of most people on this site. Naturally, the most upvotes comments are people countering it with anecdotes. I thought people here we were meant to be smart enough to avoid confirmation bias?

danaos 6y ago
I don't believe that being "smart" inhibits confirmation bias, as it's an inherent human trait that our brains have evolved into.
- cringepirate 6y ago
  Being smart makes confirmation bias worse because you can reason yourself into believing your confirmation bias away.
truthwhisperer 6y ago
You make a mistake. Smart does not mean street or society wise. You can be regarded as very smart because you are able to solve a math problem but you can't even have a normal conversation on the street or see the difference between male/female gender. Most people live in the tech bubble. Artificial world high wages and don't suffer the daily stress from average Joe and the criminal activities on the street. They tend to believe that their artificial world with well defined "true" or "false" statements can be applied on the average dynamic changing society.
m0zg 6y ago
This was clear right from the outset too. Upper middle class white people in "nice" neighborhoods don't even interact with police. I interacted with a police officer a grand total of 3 times in the last 20 years: one traffic citation, one traffic ticket (missing front plate on the car - deserved), and an officer stopped by after someone broke into our mailbox and asked if I'd press charges (I said I would, but they never found the perp). Compare that to a bad neighborhood in e.g. Chicago or Detroit where the situation is worse than in Kabul, and without constant, heavy, aggressive police presence a lot more people will be murdered. The belief that we do not need police and that a "social worker" is sufficient in e.g. Chicago is what someone has astutely called a "luxury belief", a modern equivalent of "let them eat cake". It comes from the tower so ivory, you can't look at it without hurting your eyes in broad daylight.

habosa 6y ago

Since many people here are not discussing the actual article, let me copy-paste the author's conclusion: > It's not so much the volume of interactions Black Americans have with the police that troubles them or differentiates them from other racial groups, but rather the quality of those interactions. > Most Black Americans want the police to spend at least as much time in their area as they currently do, indicating that they value the need for the service that police provide. However, that exposure comes with more trepidation for Black than White or Hispanic Americans about what they might experience in a police encounter. And those harboring the least confidence that they will be treated well, or who have had negative encounters in the past, are much more likely to want the police presence curtailed.

dvh1990 6y ago

I'm not American so I can't know, but how much police presence is "right" in your opinion? Surely no police sounds like a bad thing, doesn't it?

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paulintrognon 6y ago

I believe what one want is not no police, but rather a non-racist, fair, police. Maybe I missed something, but imho the protests are not for the removal of police, but rather for a police you can trust and rely on, regardless of your look.

dvfjsdhgfv 6y ago
Is the slogan "defund the police" helpful in this case?

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burntbridge 6y ago

This seems like a massive vote of no confidence in policing. A massive 19% of black Americans would like to see less police. i.e. just take their chances. Imagine this in the context of other essential services i.e. 19% of people wanted less hospitals or ambulances.

qPM9l3XJrF 6y ago
"A massive 19% of black Americans would like to see less police. i.e. just take their chances." "A massive 19% of overweight Americans would like to eat less food. i.e. just starve." Suppose there were police hanging out in front of your door all day, and you said you wanted to see less police. Does that mean you want to "just take your chances"? The question is what the threshold should be before cops feel justified in coming by. Wanting the threshold higher doesn't mean you want it so high they never come.

jacquesm 6y ago

Of course they do. But they want police, people that are professional and courteous and a net positive for the society they operate in. Not the power tripping racist scum that seems to make up a good portion of the police in the USA (and; unfortunately; elsewhere as well). Police is a good thing when implemented properly, and a dangerous component that can easily get out of control when allowed to.

Havoc 6y ago

Anarchy is generally not much fun so yeah I can see that. Good policing > Bad policing > No policing

lucideer 6y ago

A few people mentioning that a "respected" polling company such as Gallup has methods to correct for potential bias in such polls. The Gallup Panel is 100,000 members, with weighting being applied "according to gender, age, race, Hispanic ethnicity, education and region". One of those weights is nullified in this headline, and it's also notable that there is no mention of any direct weighting for economic factors. Education and region could be considered proxies here, but given the sample and the already reduced weighting, this seems like a result on very weak footing.

baybal2 6y ago

A good precedent to study: Georgia's Ex-President Explains How He Abolished Police and Brought Down Crime > I Abolished and Rebuilt the Police. The United States Can Do the Same. https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/11/abolish-police-georgia-brutality-crime/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/06/11/abolish-police-georgia-... > After Georgia’s Rose Revolution in 2004, I became president of a failed state. Law enforcement agencies functioned like criminal gangs. Officers demanded bribes, trafficked narcotics and weapons, and worked for political and business elites as a mercenary security force. Georgia was a textbook example of “predatory policing”: Police did not perform the basic responsibilities of ensuring public safety, instead enriching themselves and their patrons by extorting citizens. A 2003 survey found that just 2.3 percent of Georgians held a positive view of police. > Given that reality, police reform was not only a matter of restructuring institutions or implementing better policies. We had to change the mentality of a broken, cynical, and fearful society. > Before people could begin to trust the police, we—the new political elites—had to earn their trust. Challenging the status quo was not enough. We had to destroy it and build something better. > We replaced them with an entirely new force of Patrol Police, who had no background in law enforcement and thus no ties to old, corrupted elites. Recruits had to pass a competitive examination and complete a course in criminal procedure code. They were trained in persuasion, negotiation, and mediation skills to minimize the use of force. > In 2005 Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili fired "the entire traffic police force" of the Georgian National Police due to corruption, numbering around 30,000 police officers. ... Throughout the reformation, policemen were presented with new Volkswagen cars and navy blue uniforms, with "Police" written on the back. Law enforcement in Georgia (country) - Wikipedia

ipython 6y ago

That’s great news since neither major party candidate is proposing to “defund” the police.

zalkota 6y ago

Most people don’t want their local grocery store burned.

cityzen 6y ago

Wanting police presence != wanting the police to shoot them in the back or choke them, literally, to death. The poll also states: Fewer than one in five Black Americans feel very confident that the police in their area would treat them with courtesy and respect. While similar to the 24% of Asian Americans saying the same, it is markedly lower than the 40% of Hispanic Americans and the 56% of White Americans who feel this way. This could either stem from Black Americans' own negative experiences with the police or from their familiarity with people who have had negative encounters with law enforcement. Black americans deserve to enjoy the confidence that 56% of white americans do in terms of being treated with courtesy and respect.

jrm4 6y ago

This ought not be particularly difficult to understand. Black folks don't want the police to go away, we want the police to generally do the job they are hired for. But also, we don't have a big problem with the extreme rhetoric against the police because for years and years, in the face of overwhelming evidence of misconduct, there hasn't been meaningful reform. Desperate times, desperate measures.