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Palmer Luckey, the original creator had this to say over on /r/oculus: I am already getting heat from users and media outlets who say this policy change prov
by atarian 6y ago
Palmer Luckey, the original creator had this to say over on /r/oculus:
I am already getting heat from users and media outlets who say this policy change proves I was lying when I consistently said this wouldn't happen, or at least that it was a guarantee I wasn't in a position to make. I want to make clear that those promises were approved by Facebook in that moment and on an ongoing basis, and I really believed it would continue to be the case for a variety of reasons. In hindsight, the downvotes from people with more real-world experience than me were definitely justified.
A few examples below so people won't make up their own version of what I actually said:
- I guarantee that you won't need to log into your Facebook account every time you wanna use the Oculus Rift.
- You will not need a Facebook account to use or develop for the Rift
- Nope. That would be lame.
- I promise.
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/ic4ye1/new_oculus_users_required_to_use_a_facebook/g20dysu/ https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/ic4ye1/new_oculus_u...
- daenz 6y ago>In hindsight, the downvotes from people with more real-world experience than me were definitely justified. I don't want to assume bad intent, but I find it hard to believe that someone could be so naive about the project and the organization controlling it.
- ocdtrekkie 6y agoWithout assuming bad intent, I think it's safe to say people will tend to think in line with what makes them comfortable with the massive amount of money they are about to get.
- exolymph 6y agoWhy do you find it hard to believe that someone could be so naive?
- daenz 6y agoA combination of his past successes with Oculus, Facebook's track record, and his extraordinarily high confidence that the thing lots of people were afraid would happen, wouldn't happen
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- entropicdrifter 6y agoHis success was largely as an engineer hacking together prototypes and as a hype man, pulling in the interest of bigger names like John Carmack.
- Karunamon 6y agoNot to mention his demonstrated history of putting his foot in his mouth. This is hardly the first time he was later proven wrong on something he originally promised. https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/4gfpjk/palmer_luckey_on_twitter_i_prefer_production_that/d2h7zeb/?context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/4gfpjk/palmer_lucke...
- Barrin92 6y agoprobably because a giant tech behemoth buying up a small company and giving it the good old Borg treatment is a tale as old as time. Let's be real, the reason he was wilfully naive is because they send him a big fat check, just like they did to the Whatsapp founders, in the same year I think. I just wish they would at least be honest and say it instead of this whole "I thought our dreams would come true" talk.
- cool_dude85 6y agoHe hasn't managed to give all his money away to a wallet inspector yet. That's about the level of naivete needed to believe in a promise FB of all people tells you to get you to sell your company to them.
- Ensorceled 6y agoIt was 6 years ago in 2014. Facebook has done a lot of stuff since then to reveal it's true colors.
- coldpie 6y agoPlus, Luckey was 22 in 2014. That's plenty young to be naive (though that does nothing to excuse his behavior since then).
- Ensorceled 6y agoFacebook was also still taking a hands off with acquisitions like Instagram the time.
- DonHopkins 6y agoBad intent was certainly behind his funding the shitposting of dirty Pro-Trump memes.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- MattGaiser 6y agoTo close the deal, I suspect that many assurances were offered by Facebook. Why do we assume that he lied instead of someone at Facebook?
- someHnUser 6y agoIf I'm reading most of these comments correctly it's that it doesn't matter if he was lied to, he should have known that this is how the world works. "should have known" is what most of these comments are talking about. As a thought experiment assume he was lied to, most of these comments are talking about the ignorance and whether it was sincere. Was he this naive or is it easy to be this naive (i.e. self imposed ignorance) when there's a deal to be made.
- wccrawford 6y agoI don't think any reasonable person thinks Luckey lied. They think he said something stupid, was called on it, and double-down. Now that it has proven out as people expected, they're calling him out on it again. Perhaps other people will learn a lesson from it? I can hope.
- Aerroon 6y agoMaybe he assumed that his new position would allow him to veto or persuade the rest of Facebook to not make such a move? I could certainly see somebody being naive enough on that front.
- fossuser 6y agoI think he was 17 (or close to that) when starting the original kickstarter. Carmack also wanted to sell because he had built businesses before and wanted to focus on the technology without having to deal with survival. It wouldn't surprise me if Luckey believed that would be the outcome. I think Zuck's strategy as CEO was also less clear then. Today it would be obvious, back then though, I'm not so sure.
- chme 6y ago> I think Zuck's strategy as CEO was also less clear then. Today it would be obvious, back then though, I'm not so sure. I think Facebooks business strategy how to make money was pretty clear at that time as well. Just remember the [Facebook Home](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_Home https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_Home) Android launcher that allowed the company unprecedented access to the data on the device. https://gigaom.com/2013/04/04/why-facebook-home-bothers-me-it-destroys-any-notion-of-privacy/ https://gigaom.com/2013/04/04/why-facebook-home-bothers-me-i...
- xorcist 6y agoAre we talking about the same company? The one whose business idea it is to lock up all the world's information? The one that, together with Quora and Instagram, shove a login screen in your face when you haplessly click the wrong link? When all you really wanted some some local business opening hours or contact information? The one that already owns your contact information, and aren't afraid to tell you so, because they tricked any one of your friends into letting their app suck their contact book dry?
- richardwhiuk 6y agoQuora isn't owned by Facebook, you know?
- philosopher1234 6y agoI think performing mental gymnastics to avoid bad intent is silly. Many people have actual bad intentions. “The divide between good and evil cuts through the heart of every man”
- liability 6y agoPeople often become conveniently naive when offered a lot of money.
- mgraczyk 6y agoHe was pretty young and didn't have professional experience at large companies. I think naivety is a reasonable explanation.
- entropicdrifter 6y agoHe was also homeschooled, so it's kind of a triple whammy as far as naivety goes
- squeaky-clean 6y agoI don't believe him at all. If it is true, then that's surprisingly dumb of him. I'd respect him more if he just admitted he sold out for a life-changing amount of money. Heck, I probably would have done it too.
- macspoofing 6y ago>I don't want to assume bad intent, but I find it hard to believe that someone could be so naive about the project and the organization controlling it. Let's not assume bad intent and recognize the reality that things change. That any corporate statement or policy is not true in perpetuity. It's very possible that at the time FB really did believe it. It has been 6 years since the acquisition after all.
- hacknat 6y agoHere's how money works on people: Step 1: They get an credible offer for a ton of money. Step 2: Their brain starts to spiral out of control and can't stop imagining all of the things they can do for themselves, their family, their friends, the world, etc Step 3: They've just created millions of incentives for themselves. It takes a very strong person to drive out the biases that money creates in our brains. Monetary incentives are the strongest bias creators, beaten (probably) only by sex and blood (i.e. family relations). Breaking them is the work of an iron will. You had better assume you'd do no better.
- AlexandrB 6y agoExhibit n + 1 on why when you're acquired you're not in a position to promise anything to anyone despite any assurances from the acquirer. Or, from the consumer's side, why those promises should carry no weight.
- duxup 6y agoWe see this time and again but ... you SOLD, you're not the captain anymore. If the new captain doesn't make the promise, you can't give it much weight, and if it is Facebook, probably no weight even if they did :(
- MattGaiser 6y agoI suspect they do a lot to make you think you are the captain though to help get you to sell.
- esotericimpl 6y agoYes
- mobilemidget 6y agoAnd I bet some nice fat clause in the contract that prevents him from creating a new (and even better) VR headset?
- Insanity 6y agoProbably for some time
- bob33212 6y agoThey usually follow through for some amount of time. This is because it takes time to figure out how they are going to absorb you. If they changed everything on day 1 it would be a cluster fuck. A simple example would be if Orcl bought a company that was 100% on SAP for financials. If all your SAP people walk out the door the first week how are you going to file the next quarter financials. So they claim that nothing is going to change and that the SAP people have nothing to worry about.
- DonHopkins 6y agoPalmer Luckey was just kicked out of a Facebook game developer group, because so many people found his presence objectionable and threatening, due to his divisive political support for Trump, and his secretly funding the shitposting of abusive dirty false memes. https://www.thedailybeast.com/palmer-luckey-the-facebook-near-billionaire-secretly-funding-trumps-meme-machine https://www.thedailybeast.com/palmer-luckey-the-facebook-nea... >Palmer Luckey: The Facebook Near-Billionaire Secretly Funding Trump’s Meme Machine >Palmer Luckey—founder of Oculus—is funding a Trump group that circulates dirty memes about Hillary Clinton. https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/19/15366500/palmer-luckey-trump-donations-chrono-trigger-oculus https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/19/15366500/palmer-luckey-tr... >Palmer Luckey reportedly hid $100,000 donations to Trump behind Chrono Trigger references >Oculus founder Palmer Luckey donated $100,000 to fund Donald Trump’s inaugural celebrations through shell companies named after elements from classic video game Chrono Trigger, The Washington Post and Mother Jones report. News of the donation broke today, almost a month after Luckey announced he was leaving Facebook, but the money was handed over on January 4th — when he was presumably still under contract with the social media company.
- ponker 6y agoThese promises are made from acquirers to acquirees so that they can save face, and tell everyone that they received these promises so that they have a rebuttal to accusations of being a "sell-out." They aren't done with a wink and a nudge, but everyone knows that they're bullshit, it lets the entrepreneur maintain his public image while letting the carnivore devour its meal in due course.
- pfortuny 6y agoYep: you cannot promise anything beyond your control.
- nightcracker 6y agoI would argue that he was and still is lying. He had the power to make good on his promise in the form of contractual terms during the sale, but didn't.
- nrp 6y agoMost of the folks on this thread are commenting from the perspective of 2020, but Facebook had pretty significantly different reputation in 2014, especially around M&A. They had recently brought in both Instagram and WhatsApp without meddling in either their product stacks or their leadership teams. It's easy to claim now that this was all naive, but at the time it was plausible that these organizations and brands would remain fairly independent and autonomous within the Facebook umbrella.
- jacquesm 6y agoIt doesn't really matter though, does it? No matter what the history of Facebook he wasn't in a position to make those promises, period. You can only make promises about what you control.
- seba_dos1 6y agoThe fact that it was actually discussed back then, people were asking about it and that Luckey was assuring them that it won't happen (even despite of the fact that he wasn't going to be in charge anymore) clearly shows that Facebook's reputation wasn't as "significantly different" back then than how you paint it.
- kevingadd 6y agoafaik they also betrayed similar promises made to the WhatsApp founders, to their dismay. https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/30/17304792/whatsapp-jan-koum-facebook-data-privacy-encryption https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/30/17304792/whatsapp-jan-kou...
- stjohnswarts 6y agoThe people here are very on point and no doubt said the same thing in 2014 if they were privacy minded at the time. Most are under no delusion that "we will not do _______ , either now, or in the future" as empty promises. They were right then and they're right now. Facebook has obviously been in the business of selling its users out from the very beginning and no one who lives in this reality would have accepted such a promise from them as anything other than a nicety.
- 6y ago
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- ogre_codes 6y agoFacebook has historically be truly crappy in this regards. The Instagram founders had a similar story, but rather than publish a half-apology, they left the company (walking away from quite a bit of money in the process. It's gotta be hard to be a founder in a situation like this.
- jacquesm 6y agoAs a CEO of a company that is being sold you can not make any binding statements about the future of the company you will no longer own. This is really management 101 and Palmer Luckey does not strike me as an absolute beginner here, he knew how to get funded, how to execute and had a ton of people telling him this would happen. Of course he and FB had a pretty strong incentive to ensure that there wouldn't be an immediate break-off risk to the acquisition, and of course there was plenty of evidence from other acquisitions that this is how the world works. I'd like to believe him, but it is pretty hard to do so given the historic record of acquisitions to date. For me the heuristic is simple: I won't believe a word a CEO that is selling his company says about what will happen post deal. They are no longer in control and should know better.
- rboyd 6y agoI think Brendan Iribe did most of the management and fundraising. I like Palmer, but my impression was he hacked together a series of prototypes in the garage and ended up with a device that showed enough promise to bring in Iribe and Carmack. (I think he really did believe at the time that Facebook wouldn't Facebook it up.)
- jacquesm 6y agoThen he shouldn't have been CEO. Sorry, but that title comes with a bunch of responsibilities, both to your shareholders, your team and your customers/users.
- satyrnein 6y agoHe wasn't, at the time of the sale.
- jacquesm 6y agoFair enough, even so, as founder non-CEO you have even less standing to make such claims, and at that level you don't get to claim innocence. Incidentally, he then started a defense contractor, also not something where 'naive' is a pre on your resume. I don't know what the share division was at the time, but I am going to assume here that Iribe served at the pleasure of Luckey. In the end it is nitpicking; the effect is much the same.
- TaupeRanger 6y agoHe absolutely knew that this was a very real possibility and made the statements anyways to save face at the time. He was probably hoping no one would care when it eventually happened.
- TedShiller 6y agoJust make a fake FB account exclusively for this purpose. If you're forced to use a FB account at least don't link it to your actual profile. I have a separate fake FB account for every service that requires FB.
- OkGoDoIt 6y agoThis is great advice until Facebook blocks your secondary accounts, which might end up costing you access to any data/saves/content tied to your oculus or whatever linked services. Just look at how much destruction Google causes people and businesses by closing down all of their accounts for even accidental associations with flagged accounts.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- stinky613 6y agoI tried doing that just moments ago and it wouldn't let me proceed without providing a phone number.
- CamperBob2 6y agoFine, they can have the number of the burner phone that spends its time in my desk drawer with a dead battery, and is used for nothing but jumping through privacy-invading hoops.
- legulere 6y agoBetter send it back and ask for a refund. They intentionally broke something they advertised with.
- cdubzzz 6y agoWhat phone number do you use for each account you create?
- 6y ago
- flanbiscuit 6y agoalso interesting from that reddit thread were these comments: > I'm mostly surprised that they haven't done this with Whatsapp or Instagram thus far, but they are doing it for Oculus accounts. > > As of a few days ago, they're starting the process of moving Instagram DMs to Messenger, requiring a FB account. So, they are. > > > The people I know in product at Facebook are certain it is an inevitability for their entire portfolio. That's second-party hearsay, so take it as you will, but it's my operating understanding that is their long term (multi-year) goal. https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/ic4ye1/new_oculus_users_required_to_use_a_facebook/g20eq85/ https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/ic4ye1/new_oculus_u...
- cpeterso 6y agoHopefully Palmer Luckey has more foresight into how technology can be used in unintended ways now that he is building autonomous defense and surveillance system at Anduril Industries.
- jacquesm 6y agoMy preliminary and not very careful analysis reveals that he doesn't give a fuck about anybody except for #1.
- kmonsen 6y agoHe specifically left facebook so he could "shitpost for Donal Trump: https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/23/13025422/palmer-luckey-oculus-founder-funding-donald-trump-trolls https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/23/13025422/palmer-luckey-oc...
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- staplung 6y agoI don't know enough about Palmer Luckey to make any kind of statement about him or his decisions but as Upton Sinclair said: It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his [possible billions] depends upon his not understanding it.
- aeturnum 6y agoWhat are we looking for from CEOs? I feel like, if a CEO had made such flatly incorrect promises about something with direct financial implications (sales, costs, the industry in general) they would be seen as failing at their job. Luckey seems comfortable simply pointing out that he didn't make the mistake people have accused him of. It's enough to say he made another (perhaps lesser) mistake. There's nothing in the statement that reckons with his previous understanding of FB or Occulus and what else he might have gotten wrong. It feels disappointing to me.
- subsubzero 6y agoThese same type of statements were made by the whatsapp founders regarding ads on whatsapp(they said they will never happen etc.)[1] All that went out the window once the company was bought for 19B, sure both founders left a few years later, but their statements were false after the sale.
- fiatjaf 6y agoThat kind of promise from Facebook should be enforceable on court. If it is not it's only because the current government judicial system is so full of spam-cases and it is so inefficient that it doesn't have room for these things.
- Mindwipe 6y agoHonestly, it might well be actionable for purchasers of existing hardware. They can legitimately point towards a public statement made by a company agent authorised by his employer and that they bought the device on that basis. The problem is that if Facebook had to pay out $20 million to make this go away they'd consider that to be entirely a cost worth paying.
- kmonsen 6y agoPalmer is a first class jerk and other things I would maybe get banned for saying, but this is as good and honest an apology as I think he can give. Things change, and it has been many years since he said this.
- hn_throwaway_99 6y ago> Things change. That's kind of the whole point. Unless there is some sort of legally binding contract that says things won't change, and that contract can't be changed without consent of all parties, whatever BS comes out of some exec's mouth should just be completely ignored. All you should look at are the underlying incentives, and it was always clear that Oculus would be fully assimilated into FB.
- aHorseNamedSeve 6y agoA lot of people forget just how young Palmer Lucky is. I absolutely believe his post here. He was young and naive and believed the lies from the Facebook executives. Completely understandable and I hope this doesn't make people think he's a liar.
- jacobwilliamroy 6y agoDon't people realize they're complaining at a billionare and have basically no leverage at all? This backlash should have come BEFORE Palmer got PAID, not YEARS LATER. I don't think Palmer even goes on reddit anymore.
- jahlove 6y agohe seems to quite regularly https://reddit.com/user/palmerluckey/ https://reddit.com/user/palmerluckey/
- jacobwilliamroy 6y agoI dunno. If I had that kind of money, I would hire someone to use reddit for me.
- jahlove 6y agoon /r/NyanNekoSugarGirls though? :) https://www.reddit.com/user/palmerluckey/submitted/ https://www.reddit.com/user/palmerluckey/submitted/
- xdavidliu 6y agoYou mean like how politicians have social media interns to manage their Twitter? what benefit would Palmer get from being on reddit in that way?
- jacobwilliamroy 6y agoMore free time
- bambax 6y agoHe was lying then. He's lying now.
- AaronFriel 6y agoTo the extent that Facebook made those promises to someone authorized to disseminate them, I wonder if they've opened themselves up to refund claims well beyond original purchase dates. If anyone purchased the device relying upon Palmer Luckey's promises, that could be promissory estoppel. (Not a lawyer, etc etc.)
- dylan604 6y agoDid you click "Agree" to the new ToS? We told you of the changes and you agreed. Go fly a kite! --Facebook
- Jade_Jet 6y agoTo be fair, in my case, I did not. I actually received one as a gift last Christmas. I never got around to setting it up (still in packaging). I was planning on trying it out when I had some free time. Now I have a useless device that I can’t even return since I refuse to create a Facebook account.
- sukilot 6y agoClass action lawsuit ending in a $20 coupon for next Oculus purchase.
- Finnucane 6y agoPractically every corporate acquisition in the history of ever goes something like: day 1: "Nothing will change." Six months later: "All you knew is gone."
- FPGAhacker 6y agoSix years in this case. Not too shabby really.
- EpicEng 6y agoIf you look at the direction the headsets of taken things had definitely already changed.
- tomc1985 6y agoNever trust your acquirer farther than you can throw them
- ando9527 6y agoso is this the start of virtual world deeply integration to facebook society?
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- 29athrowaway 6y agoPerhaps it also went like this: [Redacted Friend's Name]: What? How'd you manage that one? Zuck: I don't know why. Zuck: They "trust me" Zuck: Dumb fucks
- mlang23 6y agoWell, almost everyone who starts a sentence with "I guarantee that" is bound to turn up as a failure.
- InsomniacL 6y ago"I guarantee...." Time to pay up
- john4532452 6y agoCould this be the reason for John Carmack leaving facebook
- Havoc 6y agoSounds like the promise was at least made in good faith which counts for something.
- teekert 6y agoYeah like when the promised not to use any WhatsApp data. And here we are, I give it 1 year before we see commercials and deep integration with FB messenger. Who believes anything they say anymore?