20 ms·

Fortnite seems to have been removed from the Play Store as well

485 points by cinntaile 6y ago

quotemstr 6y ago
Totally not coordinated at all. That Google and Apple have been completely consistent on demonetization, censorship, and general fuckery is just a coincidence. That the principal people involved all hail from the Bay Area and have similar social circles doesn't matter. Nope, no antitrust problem here, no cartel, no siree.
leereeves 6y ago
Confirmed by The Verge, who got a statement from Google: > The open Android ecosystem lets developers distribute apps through multiple app stores. For game developers who choose to use the Play Store, we have consistent policies that are fair to developers and keep the store safe for users. While Fortnite remains available on Android, we can no longer make it available on Play because it violates our policies. However, we welcome the opportunity to continue our discussions with Epic and bring Fortnite back to Google Play. https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368079/fortnite-epic-android-banned-google-play-app-store-rule-violation https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368079/fortnite-epic-an...
- crazysim 6y ago
  It's definitely a statement that's very aware of the situation on iOS.
- Nuzzerino 6y ago
  Seems pretty rare to hear about Google having humans and not AI bots do the "discussing". Interesting that they don't trust the algorithm when it comes to allowing retailers on its video game store, but the algorithm is a-ok when it comes to performing blanket political censorship for the many millions who watch YouTube.
wetpaws 6y ago
I predicted it one hour ago - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24149151 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24149151
- taytus 6y ago
  Take it easy Nostradamus.
- thefrog 6y ago
  Wow, you should play the stock market. /s
- fungizid 6y ago
  Thank you. Public predictions tied to an identity are useful, good job on getting it right!
emadabdulrahim 6y ago
Epic will lose this fight, because they initiated it the wrong way. You just don't start a law suite by violating the terms, then go ahead and cry about it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- gsich 6y ago
  With Google: probably, as there isn't just one appstore. I am not sure about Apple.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- frisco 6y ago
  That’s exactly how you do it. You need an “actual controversy” to have standing to sue, not just a theoretical one.
  - emadabdulrahim 6y ago
    Got it. Thanks.
- ssivark 6y ago
  That is exactly how you start a lawsuit, because filing a claim in the US system requires “standing”. It’s perfect if the plaintiff can point to clear examples of this kind.
  - emadabdulrahim 6y ago
    Got it. Thanks for the clarification.
- ffggvv 6y ago
  where did you get your law degree?
jonplackett 6y ago
This is a PR move. They would have known they’d get kicked off for adding their own payment system. They didn't make this in the time it took Apple to reject it. It's all pre-planned https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6B4glqJFz0&feature=emb_rel_end https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6B4glqJFz0&feature=emb_rel_...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- MereInterest 6y ago
  So? That something is predictable does not make it ethically right. That Epic could predict Apple enforcing its monopoly does not make it right for Apple to have a monopoly.
  - cvandebroek 6y ago
    Epic is also not ethically right. They shamelessly make their money on minors and pretend to do good for the gamers.
    - adtac 6y ago
      What's wrong with that? Besides, how Epic makes money is irrelevant to this discussion. Your statement is blatant whataboutism. (FWIW I despise many of Epic's decisions, particularly their hostile attitude towards Linux as a platform, so no, I'm not biased towards them.)
      - cvandebroek 6y ago
        It's not irrelevant when you start argueing about being ethical. Besides that, Epic themselves play Gatekeeper through the Epic Game Store and pay big money to ensure they are the Gatekeeper (excluding retail and other platforms), made on kids by loot boxing them.
      - asldkjaslkdj 6y ago
        There's a lot of research on the negative impacts of loot box systems and children and I think it's a worthy topic to mention when Epic tries to take the moral high ground of David fighting Goliath.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
blunte 6y ago
Good. The sooner a big well-funded company hits this duopoly wall, the better. They will have the resources to fight this, and the outcome will hopefully be positive for all other developers. Apple and Google are gatekeepers to all mobile devices (practically), but the value they add as gatekeepers is questionable. Certainly there is some value in their delivery (and much lesser so, their security) service; but their fees are not market set (since they are effectively monopolies by device type). If there were actual competitors, their rates would be much lower... around 2-5% probably.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  Another interesting thing this could do is get some momentum behind alternative app stores on Android. They exist but they're not popular. But suppose some of the big names who are tired of Google's fees go together, choose one and put all their apps there instead. That could be enough to get people to start using it. At which point, if it was charging e.g. 5% instead of 30%, many other apps would move there too. It could be the best thing to happen in this space for a while.
  - Nuzzerino 6y ago
    If you want the alternative app stores to become more popular like you say, there's no better place to actually name some of them than in the comment you just made.
    - ampdepolymerase 6y ago
      A lot of the 'alternative' app stores are either for piracy or for heavily fringe content (think NSFW) or open source only like F-droid. There are also app stores that are region specific e.g. east asia or Russian-speaking. It is difficult to find international, mainstream general purpose app stores.
      - 6y ago
bredren 6y ago
I thought they required an install from their Epic Games app store on Android, specifically to get around Google Play fees.
- mcny 6y ago
  They did. Seems like it only changed in April. Maybe they wanted to see the numbers and gather data. https://archive.fo/Z0huU https://archive.fo/Z0huU
  - bredren 6y ago
    Huh. I presume these numbers will look very bad for Google. There are no extra-app store options on iOS. If lowering the cost of app sales royalties to all 3rd developers is the only result of this, I'd say this will be worth it.
soulofmischief 6y ago
A lot of people are giving Epic a hard time for this, but I think it takes quite a bit of gusto to disrupt such an insane moneymaker in order to rally its userbase against these anti-competitive practices.
- throwaw4y-plate 6y ago
  They must have wargamed this out and feel like it's a winner.
  - elmo2you 6y ago
    You can bet on it that this is part of a larger game of chess. Certainly not the rebellious resistance fight of an underdog, as it is mostly being presented. More like cannibalization between several large and ruthless corporations, and mostly because those who should have protected this market from being cornered into its current corrupt state, miserably failed at that (time and again). Many may be hopeful about the results of this move, which is no doubt part of Epic's strategy. However, I expect that the results will mostly just favor the bottom line of whoever wins this fight. I'm rather convinced that it won't be much of an improvement for end users. Maybe end users will benefit for a short while after a victory by Epic, until the company decides to "cash in" on their win and end users will (again) get pretty much what they had up till now. Because that is apparently what Epic can charge its users.
  - MBCook 6y ago
    I imagine both of them and Apple (and possibly Google) have. Well we don’t know for sure there’s a very good chance the negotiations have been going on behind the scenes and they finally broke down far enough that Epic decided to pull the trigger and force the issue.
    - m000 6y ago
      Apple and Google also being prepared doesn't mean much for the final outcome of the case. Even if Apple and Google have wargamed the move and found out they would definitely lose, would they do anything without first being confronted? I'd bet they wouldn't, because that would be several hundreds of millions in lost revenue. It's better for them to stay quiet, perhaps try to appease under the table those who have deep enough pockets to challenge them (e.g. Amazon), keep milking the cow for as long as possible.
reissbaker 6y ago
This is also bad, but Google still allows Android users to install Epic's game store (which does continue to list Fortnite), so I think it's a bit more defensible than Apple's ban in which it's now just impossible to install the game at all. Removing from the Play Store on Android isn't equivalent to removing from the App Store on iOS; you can install apps from outside of the Play Store on Android, but you can't install apps from outside of the App Store on iOS (at least, not without jailbreaking).
- dade_ 6y ago
  And on Samsung’s store. This could be good for alternate Android app stores. https://galaxystore.samsung.com/detail/com.epicgames.fortnite?session_id=W_4229fd67bcdde10d0d4b5ef6e1a4408b https://galaxystore.samsung.com/detail/com.epicgames.fortnit...
- ridiculous_fish 6y ago
  Epic already tried to make a run of it outside the Play Store, and gave up, citing Google's efforts to "outright block software obtained outside the Google Play store." I don't think there's a practical difference here.
  - reissbaker 6y ago
    If I go to fortnite.com/android, I can still download and install the Epic Game Store for Android. So it's definitely better than the situation on iOS. In practice, you can still install Fortnite on Android (and it's only a Google search away — when I searched "fortnite android" just now, it was the top hit of the search results, just after the News section that's filled with the news of the Play Store ban); you can't install Fortnite on iOS at all. It's actually even slightly easier to install APKs on Android than installing non-Mac-App-Store software on macOS — with Android it prompts you right when you open to allow or disallow installs from the source you downloaded from, whereas macOS makes you dig around in Settings the first time. I tried installing the Epic store just now on Android, and it was a fairly seamless experience. I'm sure it gets fewer sales, since the Play store is bundled with most Android phones and the Epic store isn't. But it's pretty different than an outright ban: the Play store is charging you the 30% Google tax for reach/audience, but you're free to list on an alternative store if you choose to.
baby-yoda 6y ago
the enemy (aapl/goog) of my enemy (antitrust regulators) is my friend?
- markus_zhang 6y ago
  No but you want them to fight at least
- Judgmentality 6y ago
  I know it's a bit pedantic, but... "The enemy of my enemy is my ally."
- bsder 6y ago
  Maxim 29--The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No less. "The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries" https://schlockmercenary.fandom.com/wiki/The_Seventy_Maxims_of_Maximally_Effective_Mercenaries https://schlockmercenary.fandom.com/wiki/The_Seventy_Maxims_...
skc 6y ago
Google may have missed a great PR opp here.
- therealmarv 6y ago
  exactly! Now is the chance for them to show how much better they are than Apple.
- SquareWheel 6y ago
  I'm sure they weighed that against setting a precedent that developers can sidestep their 30% cut. The income was probably considered more valuable than the PR.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > I'm sure they weighed that against setting a precedent that developers can sidestep their 30% cut That precedent is being set anyway, the Epic Games store still exists on Android, and you can get Fortnite through it, and this dispute can't do anything but bring more attention to that fact. Of course, that kind of does show a way in which they are better for devs and consumers than Apple, since dispute over store terms with devs are less of a total barrier to delivering/selling (for devs) or getting access to (for consumers) apps on the platform.
- james412 6y ago
  Who is to say Google were actually responsible for delisting the app? Epic possibly could have done it as another leg of this campaign
jay_kyburz 6y ago
I look forward to putting my game Neptune's Pride in the Epic Games store and using PayPal to collect payments.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  Frankly, if you did it right now, I think you'd get away with it. Epic understands the game here, and they aren't going to ruin it. Note, however, that not just anyone can publish a game on EGS, so you'd have to already be an established developer.
- DetroitThrow 6y ago
  I had been trying to remember the name of this game for over a year now, my few Google searches for "long term space strategy mmo" never yielded anything. I love that hackernews seems to dredge up the interesting parts of the net. Anyways, Neptune's Pride is very very fun and I can't wait to play it again!
  - jay_kyburz 6y ago
    Hello DetroitThrow! Glad to hear my not very subtle plug for the game might get at least one player back!
ivanstojic 6y ago
It's important to remember that Epic games isn't a champion of freedom here. After Epic store launched on the PC in 2018, Epic used their platform's growing popularity to bait and/or strong arm (it's unclear to me) indie developers into exclusivity contracts on Epic's game store. This action caused a massive uproar in the gaming community because with those exclusivity deals, Epic made developers break existing preorders. This isn't about freedom or choice or walled gardens. It's about cutting off a slightly bigger slice of a billion dollar pie.
- the-pigeon 6y ago
  I have no problem with villains fighting other villains. Epic Games is obviously just out to profit more. But this is a war that we all benefit from if they win. Sure I'd love to see someone like the EFF change this. But the reality is they don't have the funding to go directly against Apple and Google on this. Epic Games does.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
  Who cares? Who cares if it's for money or if Epic is not a champion of freedom here. Epic is in the right- Apple and Google need to be regulated.
- the8472 6y ago
  The outcome may still be beneficial for others.
- hellotomyrars 6y ago
  Do you really consider giving developers a giant bag of guaranteed money up front to be strong arming them? They took the deal, they didn't get their life/safety threatened. There was some really shitty behavior by developers who took the pot of money who had already made promises to crowdfunders previously. That's on the developer though, and they should be judged appropriately for their actions.
  - user5994461 6y ago
    One of the non negotiable condition to get the pile of money was to not publish the game on steam, removing it if it was already there and cancelling preorders. That's not exactly friendly to developers, forbidden to publish to the other platform with more customers.
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
IMO, this was Epic's one misstep—they should have pulled Fortnite from the Google Play Store a week before this stunt. Apple is the big fish (revenue-wise) with the most draconian policy. Provoking two giants at once was not necessary. Every other aspect of how Epic played this has been brilliant IMO.
- wvenable 6y ago
  I disagree. This proves that one can be shut out of the almost the entire mobile software market in a single day. Apple is not a monopoly but Apple and Google together have just shown the incredible power they wield.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    Android users can still download Fortnite though, they just have to sideload it. Epic isn't truly shut out from that market.
  - kmonsen 6y ago
    Of course you can when you break the terms of services. Try adding some porn to your game and see it gone from both stores in a day as well. Or some other way to obvious break their terms.
    - wvenable 6y ago
      This is a protest and a law suit against those terms of service. They have to break them to even have a case.
      - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        But the protest works is they're doing something which ought to be allowed. If Epic got pulled from the App Store for suddenly showing pornography, I don't think they'd get much sympathy.
TillE 6y ago
I really don't see how Epic has a leg to stand on here, not on a platform which allows sideloading. The Apple case is complicated, but this seems like a straightforward violation of an entirely voluntary contract.
- dannyw 6y ago
  Microsoft got pinged for pre-installing Internet Explorer. Android could potentially get pinged for pre-installing Play Market and not offering a choice.
  - dagmx 6y ago
    Doubtful. Android can be customized by the OEMs and many do provide alternate stores preloaded. They'd have to go after Pixel phones (not a massive market share) or after the requirement to use Play services to be in the store.
  - ta17711771 6y ago
    Android doesn't. Google Android does.
teknopurge 6y ago
This is going to backfire for Epic. I see both sides, however, the App Stores have overhead to support free apps, and they need to be compensated. If a software developer has an issue with the distribution channel, then they can make their own, including the R&D and operate expense for the hardware. I know, really unpopular take. Bigger question is are Apple and Google (with hardware/software ecosystems) deserving of Bell-style regulation? The US already has a playbook for this.
- mmastrac 6y ago
  That argument doesn't work for other monopolies and won't hold a lot of water here either.
  - teknopurge 6y ago
    there is no monopoly - there are two primary choices(coke and pepsi), both with the similar constraints. You can choose RC cola or Faygo - always an option. Maybe Faygo offers a great new flavor(no payment fees) and tons of Users see that benefit outweighing other features? That's the market. Make the compelling value prop and you win.
    - mmastrac 6y ago
      Monopoly does not require a single actor, nor 100% of market share.
    - user5994461 6y ago
      It's funny you'd take coke as an example when there are hundreds of coke equivalents, each store selling its own off brands.
      - teknopurge 6y ago
        sharp - that is part of my point actually :)
      - badwolf 6y ago
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
rangewookie 6y ago
the 1984 ad is a little strange TBH. Apple was saying IBM wants to control the future of all information in this country, so come join us instead. Epic is saying, we want more money so standby while we go to court. Where is the epic smart phone alternative which is going to save us from the apple monopoly? It will be better for all developers if the gatekeepers lower their rates, but epic really doesn't strike me as a white knight here.
- kmonsen 6y ago
  I agree with the spirit here, what we really want are more phone operating systems and competition that way. They are of course really hard to make ...
  - suby 6y ago
    The problem is that app stores are charging 30%. More Operating Systems and competition would be good, but it's not going to fix the problem. After all, Steam takes a 30% cut, and they've got a client for multiple desktop operating sytems, as well as numerous stores competing against them (Windows Store, Mac Store, Itch.io, GoG, Humble, Greenman gaming, tons more). Normal people are just not going to install another operating system on their phone, or app store for that matter. Apple or Google may cave in this particular case because Epic has some leverage with their userbase, but I'd be shocked to see either of them lower the rates for anyone other than Epic. I think it's going to take legislation to fix this.
- gimmeThaBeet 6y ago
  It's a fair enough point. However, I think that the truth is that intrinsically you can't find a player with enough resources and weight to throw around and force the issue, who isn't also a self-interested money-hungry corporate bully when the occasion suits them. The app store is a two way street. For most developers, apple can hide behind "no one's forcing you to be on our app store". And they are right, apple doesn't have a monopoly, but they have a lot of users, and what they really have is a lot of users who spend money on their platform. They have the customers you want. But there is the flip side, which is that apple needs apps to be in the store, and sometimes needs specific ones. For most companies, apple doesn't need your app. The only parties that stand a chance at making waves are those who do control apps apple can't do without, e.g. "what do you mean I can't get Fortnite on my iPhone?" No one in the situation is gonna be perfect, because at the end of the day, this is a fight for who provides what value and should get what money. It's sort of a Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla situation.
627467 6y ago
Good for Epic to open this new battle front against Apple (and it seems Google). As I wrote in the Apple thread: I think Epic are the ideal entity to do this since - so long as Apple or Google won't actively erase apps from people devices - they already have large install base and it's unlikely to grow much more. Those who managed to install the latest update are already able to use epic "apple/google tax"less payment system so that protects their revenue for a while. If either of those para-monopolies start erasing apps from people's phone's that would only add to the narrative that Epic, Spotify, EU et al. are already pushing: these two entities have built a global extractive platform that keeps partners and consumers hostage by their fees.
mcint 6y ago
It may not just be for a lawsuit. They may provide fuel for a change of law, as Congress bumbles through an attempt at anti-trust enforcement, maybe they can become a test case for lawmakers looking for loss of competition and consumer choice. (Although existing lobbying dollars from Google, Apple, Facebook, & company may be effective in holding back representatives. Money in hand, in election season no less.) Epic Games can show just how much the on-going appstore tax prevent new business models from taking hold. They shown an incredible ability to entice people to separate from their money, even convinced Disney?! to partner for branded content. Alongside Epic Games licensing of the Unreal Engine at-or-below cost (12% [1]), I believe Sweeney's commitment to growing a "Metaverse" market at the expense of Epic's short-term profit. This comes alongside EPIC(.org)'s comparisons about American vs Chinese & emerging markets competitiveness, linked today [2]. [1]: https://www.matthewball.vc/all/themetaverse https://www.matthewball.vc/all/themetaverse [2]: https://epic.org/foia/epic-v-ai-commission/EPIC-19-09-11-NSCAI-FOIA-20200331-3rd-Production-pt9.pdf https://epic.org/foia/epic-v-ai-commission/EPIC-19-09-11-NSC...
- mschuster91 6y ago
  Isn't Congress on summer vacation and then they'll all be fighting for reelection anyway? I hardly doubt anything will get passed until next year if it's not important enough to get a bipartisan vote.
nsgoetz 6y ago
The Google statement really feels like they're subtweeting Apple: > The open Android ecosystem lets developers distribute apps through multiple app stores. For game developers who choose to use the Play Store, we have consistent policies that are fair to developers and keep the store safe for users. While Fortnite remains available on Android, we can no longer make it available on Play because it violates our policies. However, we welcome the opportunity to continue our discussions with Epic and bring Fortnite back to Google Play.
scott31 6y ago
As a Fortnite player, its time to buy an iPhone then
- humanlion87 6y ago
  Good luck playing it on an iPhone :)
- tveita 6y ago
  You might have missed some steps of this still developing story: https://twitter.com/markgurman/status/1293984069722636288 https://twitter.com/markgurman/status/1293984069722636288
gumby 6y ago
I really don’t understand the argument about Apple’s store, when Apple has only 20-25% of the installed base and the dominant platform has many stores to choose from. Customers are plainly choosing the open platform.
- partiallypro 6y ago
  First off, that's globally, not the US (in the US it's ~50/50.) Secondly, despite Apple not having a "monopoly" on the install base they do essentially have a monopoly on store expenditures and revenue. There is a reason why Apps launch on iOS first (usually), AppStore members are more likely to buy the app and do in-app purchases than Android users. This is BY FAR. I forgot the exact numbers, but I believe it's near double or triple that of Android. The AppStore is a cash register for Apple, 30% is insanity.
Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
I won't stop telling this: mobile platforms need not only third party app stores, but third party push notifications services too. Both iOS and Android love to kill apps in the background. This behavior, sans push notifications, cripples a lot of types of applications (chiefly, all messengers). If there ever would be some legal pressure on Apple& Google to open up their platforms, it is important to make this point known to legislators.
- user5994461 6y ago
  Applications have to be paused to save battery, or killed to save memory. You can lookup the Android doc since the first version 10+ years ago, it explains very well the lifecycle of apps. Mobile devices would be unusable if it were not for that.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
    This obvious thing you say doesn't change the fact that there is no a way to wake an app from sleep without FCM push notifications or running a background service with persistent notification (which users hate), which has a lot of restrictions that get tighter with every new version of Android.
tony 6y ago
If anyone likes to follow app store case law, Oyez has the verbal arguments for Apple v Pepper that follow with text captions: https://www.oyez.org/cases/2018/17-204 https://www.oyez.org/cases/2018/17-204 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._v._Pepper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._v._Pepper
csneeky 6y ago
The link leads to nothing? Has been removed? (Sorry if late to the game but seems no one has mentioned this yet)
jandrese 6y ago
As I see it this improves their chances of winning the suit. By having Google act in the same manner they have a stronger case that the market is a duopoly that restricts customer's freedom. Remember that courts tend to be very lenient towards business practices, so it takes egregious behavior to convince them to step in. This bolster's Epic's position.
bigtones 6y ago
The real reason Epic Games did this... Money - they were forced to hand over more than $500 Million dollars to Apple and Google in the past 12 months alone. That's $1.3 Million dollars per day. Epic gave Apple over $360 Million dollars in the last twelve months just to list the game in it's app store, and over $150 Million to Google to do the same. By any measure, having to hand over half a billion dollars is just an insane cut of revenue to have to give two companies that had absolutely nothing to do with conceiving, designing or developing such a successful game. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/13/technology/apple-fortnite-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/13/technology/apple-fortnite...
- DivisionSol 6y ago
  But did have everything to do with developing the hardware capable of running the game on a handheld device?
  - eganist 6y ago
    You say this as if the devices don't have profit margins and the companies aren't constantly adding to their cashpiles.
    - DivisionSol 6y ago
      They're tacking on a recurring revenue stream (App Store) onto their one-time sale (iPhone). Margins on both fund the innovation machine. Also, with the outrage over companies needing to layoff/cut hours during(now) Covid-19 because they didn't have a warchest saved up... Having a cashpile seems like a fiscally responsible thing to do for a company.
      - eganist 6y ago
        > They're tacking on a recurring revenue stream (App Store) onto their one-time sale (iPhone). Margins on both fund the innovation machine. How does Samsung's devices division manage it?
grawprog 6y ago
Was fortnite on the play store? A few months ago I decided to try it for android, I had to download the epic games store app from their site and install it from there. This was in like February or something.
dustinmoris 6y ago
It's important to remember that Apple and Google only have a Duopoly, because nobody else seems to be able to develop anything that is remotely appealing to customers. Microsoft tried with their own mobile operating system many years ago and they failed at every attempt. If Apple was told to open its App Store they could literally just shut down their App Store instead the next day and in a few days or weeks consumers all around the world would put too much pressure on any legislator to revert their changes, because not a single consumer cares about Epic, but everyone cares about their iPhone to remain as awesome as it is today, ad part of it is Apple's walled garden.
- gizmodo59 6y ago
  I don’t see Apple shutting down App Store even for spite. Not sure their operating expenses on App Store but if they reduce their cut, it won’t look bad on the books.
BooneJS 6y ago
Will my kid be able to buy new skins with something other than vbucks when this is all said and done?
chrisan 6y ago
Don't xbox and playstation also take a 30% cut on sales?
brundolf 6y ago
It's fascinating that Google is deciding to form a unified front with Apple instead of playing the "good guy" and taking an opportunity to paint their competitor in a bad light. It really betrays just how important that 30% fee must be to them. The plot just keeps thickening.
damnyou 6y ago
I've been very critical of Apple, but Google deserves the same as well. Hope Epic files a lawsuit against Google too.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  Since there are alternative stores on Android (incluid Epic’s own, which, IIRC, they used Fortnite exclusivity to launch), to which developers demonstrably do resort if Google's pricing or other terms become unfavorable, there's a lot weaker antitrust argument with Google Play.
  - damnyou 6y ago
    I use Android with alternate app stores everyday, so I'm intimately familiar with the issues with them. The most prominent ongoing issue is that they can't auto-update apps the way Google's can. It's not a level playing field.
drusepth 6y ago
Not commenting on whether Fortnite should or shouldn't have been removed from either app store, but wanted to point out one HUGE difference between Android and iOS here: Removing Fortnite from the iOS store wholly removes the ability for people to download and play Fortnite on iOS devices, unless they're jailbroken. Removing Fortnite from Google Play does no such thing. It's still readily available to download and play from other app stores and/or Epic directly. No need to jailbreak or root. This is a huge difference in paradigms that'll probably go overlooked with headlines of "Apple and Google remove Fortnite from app stores". I think this is why Epic is so ready to "take on Apple" (see: their Nineteen Eighty-Fortnite ad). This'll be a legal battle that's exciting to see, especially in the current/brewing anti-big-tech political climate.
mulmen 6y ago
I'm confused, the other story on this is "Apple kicked Fortnite off the app store". Did Google coincidentally do the same thing? Did Epic actually pull their game in both places?
- 3PS 6y ago
  Epic pushed a server-side update which gave users on both iOS and Android access to discounted prices that sidestepped the usual 30% cut to Apple or Google. This was a violation of terms of service on both platforms, so Fortnite was removed from both the App Store and the Play Store. Epic already knew this would happen, which is why they prepared their PR and legal teams accordingly.
social_quotient 6y ago
Did this decision likely get made before the meeting with congress? Curious the lag time on corporate decision making on something like this. The fight was bound to happen but I’m fascinated by the timing.
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Datsundere 6y ago
This is exactly what DHH fought over apple to get their app approved in the play store. If you still think that having to pay 25% of your profit just to list your product that you didn't even use their tools to make, then you're insane.
z3t4 6y ago
One reason for the duopoly is that it cost more to have your app on more platforms. Its a disaster that for example government apps like id only works on the latest ios or android. There are also Sailfish, FirefoxOS, bunch of feature phone OS, and likely a lot I dont know of. The duopoly is self inflicted by the software industry.
muyuu 6y ago
Any official statements released?
FridgeSeal 6y ago
I can do nothing but laugh - I have precisely zero sympathy for Epic here.
lwansbrough 6y ago
Crazy number of boot lickers in these threads.
tomcam 6y ago
Apple and Google are totally not acting like a cartel.
tibbydudeza 6y ago
Hey does TenCent not own a big chunk of Epic ???. It would be great for Huawei if this whole closed appstore ecosystem would be broken up and give customers the freedom of choice.
Mandatum 6y ago
What happens to players who refund everything from these stores once the apps are no longer accessible? Does Apple or Google just eat the cost? I presume Epic has already been paid out, it seems like Apple and Google wouldn't be able to claw back that refund money.
Aissen 6y ago
It seems Google is still using the same tactics it used to kill Skyhook (Maps competitor on wifi location), and probably most GApps competitors: they blocked Oneplus from bundling the Epic launcher with system permissions (allows updates in background, like the Play Store): https://www.androidpolice.com/2020/08/13/google-reportedly-blocked-oneplus-from-pre-installing-the-epic-games-app-on-its-phones/ https://www.androidpolice.com/2020/08/13/google-reportedly-b...

485 points by cinntaile 6y ago

Totally not coordinated at all. That Google and Apple have been completely consistent on demonetization, censorship, and general fuckery is just a coincidence. That the principal people involved all hail from the Bay Area and have similar social circles doesn't matter. Nope, no antitrust problem here, no cartel, no siree.

leereeves 6y ago

Confirmed by The Verge, who got a statement from Google: > The open Android ecosystem lets developers distribute apps through multiple app stores. For game developers who choose to use the Play Store, we have consistent policies that are fair to developers and keep the store safe for users. While Fortnite remains available on Android, we can no longer make it available on Play because it violates our policies. However, we welcome the opportunity to continue our discussions with Epic and bring Fortnite back to Google Play. https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368079/fortnite-epic-android-banned-google-play-app-store-rule-violation https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368079/fortnite-epic-an...

crazysim 6y ago
It's definitely a statement that's very aware of the situation on iOS.
Nuzzerino 6y ago
Seems pretty rare to hear about Google having humans and not AI bots do the "discussing". Interesting that they don't trust the algorithm when it comes to allowing retailers on its video game store, but the algorithm is a-ok when it comes to performing blanket political censorship for the many millions who watch YouTube.

wetpaws 6y ago

I predicted it one hour ago - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24149151 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24149151

taytus 6y ago
Take it easy Nostradamus.
thefrog 6y ago
Wow, you should play the stock market. /s
fungizid 6y ago
Thank you. Public predictions tied to an identity are useful, good job on getting it right!

emadabdulrahim 6y ago

Epic will lose this fight, because they initiated it the wrong way. You just don't start a law suite by violating the terms, then go ahead and cry about it.

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gsich 6y ago
With Google: probably, as there isn't just one appstore. I am not sure about Apple.
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frisco 6y ago
That’s exactly how you do it. You need an “actual controversy” to have standing to sue, not just a theoretical one.
- emadabdulrahim 6y ago
  Got it. Thanks.
ssivark 6y ago
That is exactly how you start a lawsuit, because filing a claim in the US system requires “standing”. It’s perfect if the plaintiff can point to clear examples of this kind.
- emadabdulrahim 6y ago
  Got it. Thanks for the clarification.
ffggvv 6y ago
where did you get your law degree?

jonplackett 6y ago

This is a PR move. They would have known they’d get kicked off for adding their own payment system. They didn't make this in the time it took Apple to reject it. It's all pre-planned https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6B4glqJFz0&feature=emb_rel_end https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6B4glqJFz0&feature=emb_rel_...

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MereInterest 6y ago
So? That something is predictable does not make it ethically right. That Epic could predict Apple enforcing its monopoly does not make it right for Apple to have a monopoly.
- cvandebroek 6y ago
  Epic is also not ethically right. They shamelessly make their money on minors and pretend to do good for the gamers.
  - adtac 6y ago
    What's wrong with that? Besides, how Epic makes money is irrelevant to this discussion. Your statement is blatant whataboutism. (FWIW I despise many of Epic's decisions, particularly their hostile attitude towards Linux as a platform, so no, I'm not biased towards them.)
    - cvandebroek 6y ago
      It's not irrelevant when you start argueing about being ethical. Besides that, Epic themselves play Gatekeeper through the Epic Game Store and pay big money to ensure they are the Gatekeeper (excluding retail and other platforms), made on kids by loot boxing them.
    - asldkjaslkdj 6y ago
      There's a lot of research on the negative impacts of loot box systems and children and I think it's a worthy topic to mention when Epic tries to take the moral high ground of David fighting Goliath.

deleted 6y ago

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blunte 6y ago

Good. The sooner a big well-funded company hits this duopoly wall, the better. They will have the resources to fight this, and the outcome will hopefully be positive for all other developers. Apple and Google are gatekeepers to all mobile devices (practically), but the value they add as gatekeepers is questionable. Certainly there is some value in their delivery (and much lesser so, their security) service; but their fees are not market set (since they are effectively monopolies by device type). If there were actual competitors, their rates would be much lower... around 2-5% probably.

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AnthonyMouse 6y ago
Another interesting thing this could do is get some momentum behind alternative app stores on Android. They exist but they're not popular. But suppose some of the big names who are tired of Google's fees go together, choose one and put all their apps there instead. That could be enough to get people to start using it. At which point, if it was charging e.g. 5% instead of 30%, many other apps would move there too. It could be the best thing to happen in this space for a while.
- Nuzzerino 6y ago
  If you want the alternative app stores to become more popular like you say, there's no better place to actually name some of them than in the comment you just made.
  - ampdepolymerase 6y ago
    A lot of the 'alternative' app stores are either for piracy or for heavily fringe content (think NSFW) or open source only like F-droid. There are also app stores that are region specific e.g. east asia or Russian-speaking. It is difficult to find international, mainstream general purpose app stores.
    - 6y ago

bredren 6y ago

I thought they required an install from their Epic Games app store on Android, specifically to get around Google Play fees.

mcny 6y ago
They did. Seems like it only changed in April. Maybe they wanted to see the numbers and gather data. https://archive.fo/Z0huU https://archive.fo/Z0huU
- bredren 6y ago
  Huh. I presume these numbers will look very bad for Google. There are no extra-app store options on iOS. If lowering the cost of app sales royalties to all 3rd developers is the only result of this, I'd say this will be worth it.

soulofmischief 6y ago

A lot of people are giving Epic a hard time for this, but I think it takes quite a bit of gusto to disrupt such an insane moneymaker in order to rally its userbase against these anti-competitive practices.

throwaw4y-plate 6y ago
They must have wargamed this out and feel like it's a winner.
- elmo2you 6y ago
  You can bet on it that this is part of a larger game of chess. Certainly not the rebellious resistance fight of an underdog, as it is mostly being presented. More like cannibalization between several large and ruthless corporations, and mostly because those who should have protected this market from being cornered into its current corrupt state, miserably failed at that (time and again). Many may be hopeful about the results of this move, which is no doubt part of Epic's strategy. However, I expect that the results will mostly just favor the bottom line of whoever wins this fight. I'm rather convinced that it won't be much of an improvement for end users. Maybe end users will benefit for a short while after a victory by Epic, until the company decides to "cash in" on their win and end users will (again) get pretty much what they had up till now. Because that is apparently what Epic can charge its users.
- MBCook 6y ago
  I imagine both of them and Apple (and possibly Google) have. Well we don’t know for sure there’s a very good chance the negotiations have been going on behind the scenes and they finally broke down far enough that Epic decided to pull the trigger and force the issue.
  - m000 6y ago
    Apple and Google also being prepared doesn't mean much for the final outcome of the case. Even if Apple and Google have wargamed the move and found out they would definitely lose, would they do anything without first being confronted? I'd bet they wouldn't, because that would be several hundreds of millions in lost revenue. It's better for them to stay quiet, perhaps try to appease under the table those who have deep enough pockets to challenge them (e.g. Amazon), keep milking the cow for as long as possible.

reissbaker 6y ago

This is also bad, but Google still allows Android users to install Epic's game store (which does continue to list Fortnite), so I think it's a bit more defensible than Apple's ban in which it's now just impossible to install the game at all. Removing from the Play Store on Android isn't equivalent to removing from the App Store on iOS; you can install apps from outside of the Play Store on Android, but you can't install apps from outside of the App Store on iOS (at least, not without jailbreaking).

dade_ 6y ago
And on Samsung’s store. This could be good for alternate Android app stores. https://galaxystore.samsung.com/detail/com.epicgames.fortnite?session_id=W_4229fd67bcdde10d0d4b5ef6e1a4408b https://galaxystore.samsung.com/detail/com.epicgames.fortnit...
ridiculous_fish 6y ago
Epic already tried to make a run of it outside the Play Store, and gave up, citing Google's efforts to "outright block software obtained outside the Google Play store." I don't think there's a practical difference here.
- reissbaker 6y ago
  If I go to fortnite.com/android, I can still download and install the Epic Game Store for Android. So it's definitely better than the situation on iOS. In practice, you can still install Fortnite on Android (and it's only a Google search away — when I searched "fortnite android" just now, it was the top hit of the search results, just after the News section that's filled with the news of the Play Store ban); you can't install Fortnite on iOS at all. It's actually even slightly easier to install APKs on Android than installing non-Mac-App-Store software on macOS — with Android it prompts you right when you open to allow or disallow installs from the source you downloaded from, whereas macOS makes you dig around in Settings the first time. I tried installing the Epic store just now on Android, and it was a fairly seamless experience. I'm sure it gets fewer sales, since the Play store is bundled with most Android phones and the Epic store isn't. But it's pretty different than an outright ban: the Play store is charging you the 30% Google tax for reach/audience, but you're free to list on an alternative store if you choose to.

baby-yoda 6y ago

the enemy (aapl/goog) of my enemy (antitrust regulators) is my friend?

markus_zhang 6y ago
No but you want them to fight at least
Judgmentality 6y ago
I know it's a bit pedantic, but... "The enemy of my enemy is my ally."
bsder 6y ago
Maxim 29--The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No less. "The Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries" https://schlockmercenary.fandom.com/wiki/The_Seventy_Maxims_of_Maximally_Effective_Mercenaries https://schlockmercenary.fandom.com/wiki/The_Seventy_Maxims_...

skc 6y ago

Google may have missed a great PR opp here.

therealmarv 6y ago
exactly! Now is the chance for them to show how much better they are than Apple.
SquareWheel 6y ago
I'm sure they weighed that against setting a precedent that developers can sidestep their 30% cut. The income was probably considered more valuable than the PR.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > I'm sure they weighed that against setting a precedent that developers can sidestep their 30% cut That precedent is being set anyway, the Epic Games store still exists on Android, and you can get Fortnite through it, and this dispute can't do anything but bring more attention to that fact. Of course, that kind of does show a way in which they are better for devs and consumers than Apple, since dispute over store terms with devs are less of a total barrier to delivering/selling (for devs) or getting access to (for consumers) apps on the platform.
james412 6y ago
Who is to say Google were actually responsible for delisting the app? Epic possibly could have done it as another leg of this campaign

jay_kyburz 6y ago

I look forward to putting my game Neptune's Pride in the Epic Games store and using PayPal to collect payments.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
Frankly, if you did it right now, I think you'd get away with it. Epic understands the game here, and they aren't going to ruin it. Note, however, that not just anyone can publish a game on EGS, so you'd have to already be an established developer.
DetroitThrow 6y ago
I had been trying to remember the name of this game for over a year now, my few Google searches for "long term space strategy mmo" never yielded anything. I love that hackernews seems to dredge up the interesting parts of the net. Anyways, Neptune's Pride is very very fun and I can't wait to play it again!
- jay_kyburz 6y ago
  Hello DetroitThrow! Glad to hear my not very subtle plug for the game might get at least one player back!

ivanstojic 6y ago

It's important to remember that Epic games isn't a champion of freedom here. After Epic store launched on the PC in 2018, Epic used their platform's growing popularity to bait and/or strong arm (it's unclear to me) indie developers into exclusivity contracts on Epic's game store. This action caused a massive uproar in the gaming community because with those exclusivity deals, Epic made developers break existing preorders. This isn't about freedom or choice or walled gardens. It's about cutting off a slightly bigger slice of a billion dollar pie.

the-pigeon 6y ago
I have no problem with villains fighting other villains. Epic Games is obviously just out to profit more. But this is a war that we all benefit from if they win. Sure I'd love to see someone like the EFF change this. But the reality is they don't have the funding to go directly against Apple and Google on this. Epic Games does.
2OEH8eoCRo0 6y ago
Who cares? Who cares if it's for money or if Epic is not a champion of freedom here. Epic is in the right- Apple and Google need to be regulated.
the8472 6y ago
The outcome may still be beneficial for others.
hellotomyrars 6y ago
Do you really consider giving developers a giant bag of guaranteed money up front to be strong arming them? They took the deal, they didn't get their life/safety threatened. There was some really shitty behavior by developers who took the pot of money who had already made promises to crowdfunders previously. That's on the developer though, and they should be judged appropriately for their actions.
- user5994461 6y ago
  One of the non negotiable condition to get the pile of money was to not publish the game on steam, removing it if it was already there and cancelling preorders. That's not exactly friendly to developers, forbidden to publish to the other platform with more customers.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

IMO, this was Epic's one misstep—they should have pulled Fortnite from the Google Play Store a week before this stunt. Apple is the big fish (revenue-wise) with the most draconian policy. Provoking two giants at once was not necessary. Every other aspect of how Epic played this has been brilliant IMO.

wvenable 6y ago
I disagree. This proves that one can be shut out of the almost the entire mobile software market in a single day. Apple is not a monopoly but Apple and Google together have just shown the incredible power they wield.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  Android users can still download Fortnite though, they just have to sideload it. Epic isn't truly shut out from that market.
- kmonsen 6y ago
  Of course you can when you break the terms of services. Try adding some porn to your game and see it gone from both stores in a day as well. Or some other way to obvious break their terms.
  - wvenable 6y ago
    This is a protest and a law suit against those terms of service. They have to break them to even have a case.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      But the protest works is they're doing something which ought to be allowed. If Epic got pulled from the App Store for suddenly showing pornography, I don't think they'd get much sympathy.

TillE 6y ago

I really don't see how Epic has a leg to stand on here, not on a platform which allows sideloading. The Apple case is complicated, but this seems like a straightforward violation of an entirely voluntary contract.

dannyw 6y ago
Microsoft got pinged for pre-installing Internet Explorer. Android could potentially get pinged for pre-installing Play Market and not offering a choice.
- dagmx 6y ago
  Doubtful. Android can be customized by the OEMs and many do provide alternate stores preloaded. They'd have to go after Pixel phones (not a massive market share) or after the requirement to use Play services to be in the store.
- ta17711771 6y ago
  Android doesn't. Google Android does.

teknopurge 6y ago

This is going to backfire for Epic. I see both sides, however, the App Stores have overhead to support free apps, and they need to be compensated. If a software developer has an issue with the distribution channel, then they can make their own, including the R&D and operate expense for the hardware. I know, really unpopular take. Bigger question is are Apple and Google (with hardware/software ecosystems) deserving of Bell-style regulation? The US already has a playbook for this.

mmastrac 6y ago
That argument doesn't work for other monopolies and won't hold a lot of water here either.
- teknopurge 6y ago
  there is no monopoly - there are two primary choices(coke and pepsi), both with the similar constraints. You can choose RC cola or Faygo - always an option. Maybe Faygo offers a great new flavor(no payment fees) and tons of Users see that benefit outweighing other features? That's the market. Make the compelling value prop and you win.
  - mmastrac 6y ago
    Monopoly does not require a single actor, nor 100% of market share.
  - user5994461 6y ago
    It's funny you'd take coke as an example when there are hundreds of coke equivalents, each store selling its own off brands.
    - teknopurge 6y ago
      sharp - that is part of my point actually :)
    - badwolf 6y ago

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rangewookie 6y ago

the 1984 ad is a little strange TBH. Apple was saying IBM wants to control the future of all information in this country, so come join us instead. Epic is saying, we want more money so standby while we go to court. Where is the epic smart phone alternative which is going to save us from the apple monopoly? It will be better for all developers if the gatekeepers lower their rates, but epic really doesn't strike me as a white knight here.

kmonsen 6y ago
I agree with the spirit here, what we really want are more phone operating systems and competition that way. They are of course really hard to make ...
- suby 6y ago
  The problem is that app stores are charging 30%. More Operating Systems and competition would be good, but it's not going to fix the problem. After all, Steam takes a 30% cut, and they've got a client for multiple desktop operating sytems, as well as numerous stores competing against them (Windows Store, Mac Store, Itch.io, GoG, Humble, Greenman gaming, tons more). Normal people are just not going to install another operating system on their phone, or app store for that matter. Apple or Google may cave in this particular case because Epic has some leverage with their userbase, but I'd be shocked to see either of them lower the rates for anyone other than Epic. I think it's going to take legislation to fix this.
gimmeThaBeet 6y ago
It's a fair enough point. However, I think that the truth is that intrinsically you can't find a player with enough resources and weight to throw around and force the issue, who isn't also a self-interested money-hungry corporate bully when the occasion suits them. The app store is a two way street. For most developers, apple can hide behind "no one's forcing you to be on our app store". And they are right, apple doesn't have a monopoly, but they have a lot of users, and what they really have is a lot of users who spend money on their platform. They have the customers you want. But there is the flip side, which is that apple needs apps to be in the store, and sometimes needs specific ones. For most companies, apple doesn't need your app. The only parties that stand a chance at making waves are those who do control apps apple can't do without, e.g. "what do you mean I can't get Fortnite on my iPhone?" No one in the situation is gonna be perfect, because at the end of the day, this is a fight for who provides what value and should get what money. It's sort of a Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla situation.

627467 6y ago

Good for Epic to open this new battle front against Apple (and it seems Google). As I wrote in the Apple thread: I think Epic are the ideal entity to do this since - so long as Apple or Google won't actively erase apps from people devices - they already have large install base and it's unlikely to grow much more. Those who managed to install the latest update are already able to use epic "apple/google tax"less payment system so that protects their revenue for a while. If either of those para-monopolies start erasing apps from people's phone's that would only add to the narrative that Epic, Spotify, EU et al. are already pushing: these two entities have built a global extractive platform that keeps partners and consumers hostage by their fees.

mcint 6y ago

It may not just be for a lawsuit. They may provide fuel for a change of law, as Congress bumbles through an attempt at anti-trust enforcement, maybe they can become a test case for lawmakers looking for loss of competition and consumer choice. (Although existing lobbying dollars from Google, Apple, Facebook, & company may be effective in holding back representatives. Money in hand, in election season no less.) Epic Games can show just how much the on-going appstore tax prevent new business models from taking hold. They shown an incredible ability to entice people to separate from their money, even convinced Disney?! to partner for branded content. Alongside Epic Games licensing of the Unreal Engine at-or-below cost (12% [1]), I believe Sweeney's commitment to growing a "Metaverse" market at the expense of Epic's short-term profit. This comes alongside EPIC(.org)'s comparisons about American vs Chinese & emerging markets competitiveness, linked today [2]. [1]: https://www.matthewball.vc/all/themetaverse https://www.matthewball.vc/all/themetaverse [2]: https://epic.org/foia/epic-v-ai-commission/EPIC-19-09-11-NSCAI-FOIA-20200331-3rd-Production-pt9.pdf https://epic.org/foia/epic-v-ai-commission/EPIC-19-09-11-NSC...

mschuster91 6y ago
Isn't Congress on summer vacation and then they'll all be fighting for reelection anyway? I hardly doubt anything will get passed until next year if it's not important enough to get a bipartisan vote.

nsgoetz 6y ago

The Google statement really feels like they're subtweeting Apple: > The open Android ecosystem lets developers distribute apps through multiple app stores. For game developers who choose to use the Play Store, we have consistent policies that are fair to developers and keep the store safe for users. While Fortnite remains available on Android, we can no longer make it available on Play because it violates our policies. However, we welcome the opportunity to continue our discussions with Epic and bring Fortnite back to Google Play.

scott31 6y ago

As a Fortnite player, its time to buy an iPhone then

humanlion87 6y ago
Good luck playing it on an iPhone :)
tveita 6y ago
You might have missed some steps of this still developing story: https://twitter.com/markgurman/status/1293984069722636288 https://twitter.com/markgurman/status/1293984069722636288

gumby 6y ago

I really don’t understand the argument about Apple’s store, when Apple has only 20-25% of the installed base and the dominant platform has many stores to choose from. Customers are plainly choosing the open platform.

partiallypro 6y ago
First off, that's globally, not the US (in the US it's ~50/50.) Secondly, despite Apple not having a "monopoly" on the install base they do essentially have a monopoly on store expenditures and revenue. There is a reason why Apps launch on iOS first (usually), AppStore members are more likely to buy the app and do in-app purchases than Android users. This is BY FAR. I forgot the exact numbers, but I believe it's near double or triple that of Android. The AppStore is a cash register for Apple, 30% is insanity.

Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago

I won't stop telling this: mobile platforms need not only third party app stores, but third party push notifications services too. Both iOS and Android love to kill apps in the background. This behavior, sans push notifications, cripples a lot of types of applications (chiefly, all messengers). If there ever would be some legal pressure on Apple& Google to open up their platforms, it is important to make this point known to legislators.

user5994461 6y ago
Applications have to be paused to save battery, or killed to save memory. You can lookup the Android doc since the first version 10+ years ago, it explains very well the lifecycle of apps. Mobile devices would be unusable if it were not for that.
- Andrew_nenakhov 6y ago
  This obvious thing you say doesn't change the fact that there is no a way to wake an app from sleep without FCM push notifications or running a background service with persistent notification (which users hate), which has a lot of restrictions that get tighter with every new version of Android.

tony 6y ago

If anyone likes to follow app store case law, Oyez has the verbal arguments for Apple v Pepper that follow with text captions: https://www.oyez.org/cases/2018/17-204 https://www.oyez.org/cases/2018/17-204 [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._v._Pepper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._v._Pepper

csneeky 6y ago

The link leads to nothing? Has been removed? (Sorry if late to the game but seems no one has mentioned this yet)

jandrese 6y ago

As I see it this improves their chances of winning the suit. By having Google act in the same manner they have a stronger case that the market is a duopoly that restricts customer's freedom. Remember that courts tend to be very lenient towards business practices, so it takes egregious behavior to convince them to step in. This bolster's Epic's position.

bigtones 6y ago

The real reason Epic Games did this... Money - they were forced to hand over more than $500 Million dollars to Apple and Google in the past 12 months alone. That's $1.3 Million dollars per day. Epic gave Apple over $360 Million dollars in the last twelve months just to list the game in it's app store, and over $150 Million to Google to do the same. By any measure, having to hand over half a billion dollars is just an insane cut of revenue to have to give two companies that had absolutely nothing to do with conceiving, designing or developing such a successful game. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/13/technology/apple-fortnite-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/13/technology/apple-fortnite...

DivisionSol 6y ago
But did have everything to do with developing the hardware capable of running the game on a handheld device?
- eganist 6y ago
  You say this as if the devices don't have profit margins and the companies aren't constantly adding to their cashpiles.
  - DivisionSol 6y ago
    They're tacking on a recurring revenue stream (App Store) onto their one-time sale (iPhone). Margins on both fund the innovation machine. Also, with the outrage over companies needing to layoff/cut hours during(now) Covid-19 because they didn't have a warchest saved up... Having a cashpile seems like a fiscally responsible thing to do for a company.
    - eganist 6y ago
      > They're tacking on a recurring revenue stream (App Store) onto their one-time sale (iPhone). Margins on both fund the innovation machine. How does Samsung's devices division manage it?

grawprog 6y ago

Was fortnite on the play store? A few months ago I decided to try it for android, I had to download the epic games store app from their site and install it from there. This was in like February or something.

dustinmoris 6y ago

It's important to remember that Apple and Google only have a Duopoly, because nobody else seems to be able to develop anything that is remotely appealing to customers. Microsoft tried with their own mobile operating system many years ago and they failed at every attempt. If Apple was told to open its App Store they could literally just shut down their App Store instead the next day and in a few days or weeks consumers all around the world would put too much pressure on any legislator to revert their changes, because not a single consumer cares about Epic, but everyone cares about their iPhone to remain as awesome as it is today, ad part of it is Apple's walled garden.

gizmodo59 6y ago
I don’t see Apple shutting down App Store even for spite. Not sure their operating expenses on App Store but if they reduce their cut, it won’t look bad on the books.

BooneJS 6y ago

Will my kid be able to buy new skins with something other than vbucks when this is all said and done?

chrisan 6y ago

Don't xbox and playstation also take a 30% cut on sales?

brundolf 6y ago

It's fascinating that Google is deciding to form a unified front with Apple instead of playing the "good guy" and taking an opportunity to paint their competitor in a bad light. It really betrays just how important that 30% fee must be to them. The plot just keeps thickening.

damnyou 6y ago

I've been very critical of Apple, but Google deserves the same as well. Hope Epic files a lawsuit against Google too.

dragonwriter 6y ago
Since there are alternative stores on Android (incluid Epic’s own, which, IIRC, they used Fortnite exclusivity to launch), to which developers demonstrably do resort if Google's pricing or other terms become unfavorable, there's a lot weaker antitrust argument with Google Play.
- damnyou 6y ago
  I use Android with alternate app stores everyday, so I'm intimately familiar with the issues with them. The most prominent ongoing issue is that they can't auto-update apps the way Google's can. It's not a level playing field.

drusepth 6y ago

Not commenting on whether Fortnite should or shouldn't have been removed from either app store, but wanted to point out one HUGE difference between Android and iOS here: Removing Fortnite from the iOS store wholly removes the ability for people to download and play Fortnite on iOS devices, unless they're jailbroken. Removing Fortnite from Google Play does no such thing. It's still readily available to download and play from other app stores and/or Epic directly. No need to jailbreak or root. This is a huge difference in paradigms that'll probably go overlooked with headlines of "Apple and Google remove Fortnite from app stores". I think this is why Epic is so ready to "take on Apple" (see: their Nineteen Eighty-Fortnite ad). This'll be a legal battle that's exciting to see, especially in the current/brewing anti-big-tech political climate.

mulmen 6y ago

I'm confused, the other story on this is "Apple kicked Fortnite off the app store". Did Google coincidentally do the same thing? Did Epic actually pull their game in both places?

3PS 6y ago
Epic pushed a server-side update which gave users on both iOS and Android access to discounted prices that sidestepped the usual 30% cut to Apple or Google. This was a violation of terms of service on both platforms, so Fortnite was removed from both the App Store and the Play Store. Epic already knew this would happen, which is why they prepared their PR and legal teams accordingly.

social_quotient 6y ago

Did this decision likely get made before the meeting with congress? Curious the lag time on corporate decision making on something like this. The fight was bound to happen but I’m fascinated by the timing.

deleted 6y ago

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Datsundere 6y ago

This is exactly what DHH fought over apple to get their app approved in the play store. If you still think that having to pay 25% of your profit just to list your product that you didn't even use their tools to make, then you're insane.

z3t4 6y ago

One reason for the duopoly is that it cost more to have your app on more platforms. Its a disaster that for example government apps like id only works on the latest ios or android. There are also Sailfish, FirefoxOS, bunch of feature phone OS, and likely a lot I dont know of. The duopoly is self inflicted by the software industry.

muyuu 6y ago

Any official statements released?

FridgeSeal 6y ago

I can do nothing but laugh - I have precisely zero sympathy for Epic here.

lwansbrough 6y ago

Crazy number of boot lickers in these threads.

tomcam 6y ago

Apple and Google are totally not acting like a cartel.

tibbydudeza 6y ago

Hey does TenCent not own a big chunk of Epic ???. It would be great for Huawei if this whole closed appstore ecosystem would be broken up and give customers the freedom of choice.

Mandatum 6y ago

What happens to players who refund everything from these stores once the apps are no longer accessible? Does Apple or Google just eat the cost? I presume Epic has already been paid out, it seems like Apple and Google wouldn't be able to claw back that refund money.

Aissen 6y ago

It seems Google is still using the same tactics it used to kill Skyhook (Maps competitor on wifi location), and probably most GApps competitors: they blocked Oneplus from bundling the Epic launcher with system permissions (allows updates in background, like the Play Store): https://www.androidpolice.com/2020/08/13/google-reportedly-blocked-oneplus-from-pre-installing-the-epic-games-app-on-its-phones/ https://www.androidpolice.com/2020/08/13/google-reportedly-b...