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My understanding is a lot of universities are playing bait-and-switch, announcing unrealistic plans to reopen in the Fall in order to get deposits/tuition, but

My understanding is a lot of universities are playing bait-and-switch, announcing unrealistic plans to reopen in the Fall in order to get deposits/tuition, but secretly knowing they'll be 'forced' to move everything online again. I admire Harvard's transparency, although having a multi-billion-dollar endowment does make this decision easier for them than it would be for struggling institutions. FWIW, I personally think distance learning is underrated, although I have been doing it for years so I've had time to become accustomed to it. I can understand why some students (including my wife) do not like it, and may never like it. From a strategic perspective, I can see universities like Harvard strengthening their brand by opening up more of their classes to the general public (and maybe even giving credit for a bigger chunk of them via the Extension School). This might hurt a lot of the smaller institutions and lead to consolidation, but I'm undecided on whether that would be a bad thing.

AgloeDreams 6y ago
It's Harvard. It doesn't matter how they accounted it, they have not changed the Tuition cost with this announcement so it's the same money and they are not hurting for students.
- thspimpolds 6y ago
  The average student at Harvard doesn't pay even close to actual tuition, most of the endowment is earmarked for student aid. If I remember right, something like under 90k earned by the student's family, they pay nothing. I haven't worked there in 2 years, so the math is a bit fuzzy but the concepts are accurate.
  - huac 6y ago
    while most students do pay much less than sticker price, saying 'most of the endowment is earmarked for student aid' feels misleading. in fy2019 harvard spent $193M on student aid (https://finance.harvard.edu/files/fad/files/fy19_harvard_financial_report.pdf https://finance.harvard.edu/files/fad/files/fy19_harvard_fin...) -- compared to a $5.2B operating expense spend and a $41B endowment size.
    - brain5ide 6y ago
      A conservative 3% of endowment would be the expendable return. So about 1.2B? Wouldn't be surprised if 193M is the largest distinct chunk of that.
      - huac 6y ago
        they have other operating income, e.g. tuition from everyone else, and are consistently doing capital raises. the single largest chunk of spending goes to employee wages (approx $2B); in fact, the $193M number is the smallest of all the line items in operating expenses. as another comment points out, some of the salary and wage spend could be considered part of 'financial aid.'
    - tylerhou 6y ago
      Endowment paying operating expenses is essentially financial aid, because it's a cost that is not passed on to the students.
    - vonmoltke 6y ago
      > in fy2019 harvard spent $193M on student aid That is only undergraduate aid applied directly to tuition. Per Note 12 on page 43, "Total scholarships and other student awards" was $613,243k, of which $457,639K was in direct credits to expenses. That said, I don't know where the GP got the idea that most of the endowment is earmarked for financial aid. Per page 11, that earmark is specifically 19%.
  - finolex1 6y ago
    Yes, but for the 50% of students that are not on financial aid, this must be pretty galling. These students may be rich, but a lot of them are not multimillionaire-rich. Even a family earning 200k a year will feel the pinch.
- the_pwner224 6y ago
  Many students would be much less willing to go to college if it was online only, and would instead take a gap year or do something else. If you can keep them hooked until after the tuition is billed and after the refund period expires, and then transition online, then you get that money which you would not otherwise get (now). This entire thing seems a bit like a conspiracy theory, but American universities are pretty greedy so idk. I've just accepted that I'm paying for the diploma so I personally won't mind if the classes are online for the same price - less time wasted in useless lectures, and I've already done much of the networking & connection building part of the experience in past years.
protomyth 6y ago
My understanding is a lot of universities are playing bait-and-switch, announcing unrealistic plans to reopen in the Fall in order to get deposits/tuition, but secretly knowing they'll be 'forced' to move everything online again. I don't know about big universities, but we (a small TCU - Tribal Community College) do expect to open in the fall. The problem is going to be if we see a spike or get directions from the federal, state, or tribal governments late in summer. The second problem a lot of people don't talk about is if the institution is accredited for 100% online courses. We got an exception that allowed for the summer, but we would need it extended into Fall. Being an accredited institution doesn't automatically mean you can teach 100% online courses.
- goatherders 6y ago
  Honest question: yesterday the US saw the most cases in a day since this started. If that doesnt constitute a spike then what does? Or is the planning more about anticipated levels 6 weeks from now as compared to now.
  - protomyth 6y ago
    Those are national stats, and we are very rural. Plus, we have a whole set of problems that can make it worse if certain events happen. Add to that we've been under a travel ban for months which requires people to self quarantine at home for 14 days if they leave the state or go to certain cities. And yes, figuring out what is going to happen 6 weeks out is a problem.
  - staplers 6y ago
    At this point we have seen cases dramatically spike, yet deaths have not. I think if/when we see deaths start spiking, then the decision to force closures will start happening.
    - latchkey 6y ago
      Simpson's Paradox. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebEkn-BiW5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebEkn-BiW5k
formercoder 6y ago
Why would opening up Harvard’s instruction to more of the genera public help their brand? They operate on a scarcity basis.
- asdff 6y ago
  Because it's Harvard's network and not the lectures that make the brand.
  - grogenaut 6y ago
    Without being on campus and making friends / contacts with these people how is the brand useful? "Oh man that looks like dilhead3112 from my M&A, I thought e worked here and that is definitely their green poomoji face, we should go talk to him! Probbably saved this company!" But seriously if their brand is networking, having a tight well filtered network I think would be a lot better for them. And if no one meets in person isn't that also bad for their brand? Everyone essentially becomes 2nd contacts (via harvard) on linked in.
    - asdff 6y ago
      Campus will be back the year after.
      - grogenaut 6y ago
        Then what's the point of expanding to online beyond the capacity of their campus to support next year (beyond typical attrition)?
- ralmidani 6y ago
  Harvard divides its credentials into "tiers", if you will. There are students who go through the competitive admissions process, and there's the Extension School which is basically open enrollment, even if you want to take courses for-credit. You only have to apply if you want to pursue a full Bachelors or Masters, and even then you're given the chance to prove yourself by doing good in a handful of courses. I personally never thought I could experience Harvard before I found out that CS50 (and tons of other CS courses) could be taken for-credit and even lead to a degree. Harvard also has online-only, non-credit programs like Harvard Business Online (formerly HBX) and HMX (Medical courses). Harvard can, and does, strengthen its brand by opening itself to the public. There's a huge spectrum between being a totally-closed institution and being completely open enrollment.
mmm_grayons 6y ago
Opening up to a larger group of students will weaken Harvard's brand. Many of these top institutions are valuable because rich, well-connected people go there, so going there allows one to meet them. There are companies where it is an unspoken rule that they hire only from Harvard, law offices that recruit only from Yale, etc.
- ralmidani 6y ago
  I doubt "Harvard-only" companies and "Yale-only" law firms of any considerable size exist. Sure, 3 Harvard friends might start a company, or 4 Yale lawyers may start a firm, but eventually they will have to venture outside their bubble. If you have evidence of an organization with, say, 35+ employees maintaining that kind of exclusivity, please post a link.
dicomdan 6y ago
Students will still be on campus, while teaching is done online. Sounds like a win win for students who get to interact with their peers, and professors who get to stay safe.
- Octoth0rpe 6y ago
  It sounds like a win for Harvard's residency fees and that's about it.
- therealcamino 6y ago
  Up to 40% of students will be on campus. Priority to freshmen in the fall and seniors in the spring.
goatinaboat 6y ago
I personally think distance learning is underrated, although I have been doing it for years so I've had time to become accustomed to it. I can understand why some students (including my wife) do not like it, and may never like it. The ingestion of facts is actually only a minor part of the college experience. Exploring concepts with your peers in organised and ad-hoc groups is a huge, huge part. Not to mention if you go to a name-brand college like Harvard the networking opportunities, and at every college, the social side and the experience of living away from home for the first time. It is absolutely not worth paying the tuition at Harvard to get what you could get on EdX or Coursera.
unethical_ban 6y ago
I cannot comment fully on remote learning - I haven't done it in a way that is "forced", in other words, being held to account by studying and taking exams and having remote sessions with TAs, etc. I am having a hard enough time focusing on remote work, and I am being held to account daily. Also recall that the University is, among many other things, a social and growing experience that provides expansion of the mind, a new location to experience the world away from home, and an opportunity to build social networks and connections for friends and work. It also fulfills the mission, hopefully, of a well rounded education in civics, arts and sciences, and your field of expertise. I therefore understand the drive to do as much as possible to provide some of that, and it is telling they give Freshmen and Seniors the priority (to experience campus life, and to say goodbye and push through, respectively). We hope this will only last until mid 2021. Philosophers and leaders need to be thinking about what the world may need to look like when this happens to us again.
peruvian 6y ago
Aren't endowments for elite colleges mostly tied up in hedge funds or real estate to make them even bigger? Weird for me that they could have billions in the bank and still ask for tuition.
- notatoad 6y ago
  >Weird for me that they could have billions in the bank and still ask for tuition. if you make something free, people don't value it. Harvard has a lot of financial aid for students who legitimately can't afford the tuition, and charges a lot for students who can.
- Finnucane 6y ago
  Sure, they’re managed investment funds. You couldn’t run a university just on the income from bank interest. Also, most endowment funds are not unrestricted. Donors often attach strings to what can be done with the money; it’s donated for specific purposes. Harvard is even more restricted in a way because each school has its own endowment. FAS (most undergraduates) has the biggest, but they can only spend their own money. Also, income from the endowment doesn’t cover the whole cost of operating the university. Harvard is actually managing a little better than they did in 2008. When Larry Summers was president, he made some skeezy deals to finance the Allston campus expansion, and it went way bad when the market collapsed. Now they do have some emergency cash set aside.
geophile 6y ago
The pandemic is particularly challenging for a school like Harvard, as it makes the implicit thing obvious: a prestige school like Harvard is about the social connections far more than the education. If you get one semester on campus, maybe, then what’s the point? You can get an online education anywhere, for far less money.
- jedberg 6y ago
  Harvard is fairly cheap to attend, less than a state school for most, and free if your parents make under $65K. They were forced to do that a few years ago so the government wouldn't start taxing their endowment. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/123014/what-harvard-actually-costs.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/12301...
  - vmception 6y ago
    "but fuck you if your parents had good jobs but not enough for a trust fund at no fault of your own"
    - MiroF 6y ago
      Not fuck you, just pay what you can? Harvard is extremely affordable - like among the most affordable of any school.
      - vmception 6y ago
        By the time I was applying for colleges, my parents made around $250,000 combined, which went to mortgages and other expenses, including retirement plans. I was therefore not eligible for any FAFSA loans, as they do not factor in zip code, cost of living, the kinds of assets or liabilities anyone has, nor inflation. Affordable, to me, was in-state tuition at $3,000 per semester at a state school, with a few community college classes. This was mixed with scholarships, and my parents subsidizing books and on campus living some semesters as that could more than double the cost of tuition. Are you saying that Harvard could have arbitrarily and unilaterally spit out a number close to that? And routinely does for people whose parents make more than $65,000? My comp sci degree has the same utility as anyone else that didn't go to Ivy League / Stanford.
e40 6y ago
My understanding is a lot of universities are playing bait-and-switch, announcing unrealistic plans to reopen in the Fall in order to get deposits/tuition Yes, they are. You nailed this. UCSD forced my son to choose classes at the beginning of June, with the selection being in two piles: in-person and remote. He called their bluff and chose remote. I will say that UCSD had really crappy online classes, according to my son's experience. He didn't like it at all. I think he would prefer well-run remote classes, but many of the professors were just terrible at it.
noddingham 6y ago
I'm not sure your anecdote matches the reality that for traditional college-aged students, remote/online/distance learning yields a poorer result. There's a lot of maturity that has to exist prior to enrolling in online courses that the majority of traditional students don't yet possess. [1][2][3] Calling plans to reopen 'bait-and-switch' is a bit unfair. I sincerely hope you don't think campus administrators are sitting in backrooms with dollar signs in their eyes thinking about 'pulling one over' on all these students and their families. [1] https://www.brookings.edu/research/who-should-take-online-courses/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/who-should-take-online-co... [2]https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2020/03/23/how-effective-is-online-learning-what-the.html https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2020/03/23/how-effective-... [3] https://www.al.com/news/2020/07/tuscaloosa-students-held-parties-bet-on-who-got-coronavirus-first.html https://www.al.com/news/2020/07/tuscaloosa-students-held-par...
- colechristensen 6y ago
  There are also many many soft skills and experiences you get at a proper university which you aren't going to get through zoom. In fact, it's not too much of an exaggeration to say that the things you learn out of books and are tested on are secondary to everything else you learn and experience at university.
- ghaff 6y ago
  Basically, schools and school systems (and students/parents) at almost all levels of education are being forced to make decisions between alternatives that are mostly pretty crappy across multiple dimensions, won't be easy to pull back once they get moving, in conditions of extreme uncertainty. If financially viable to do so, I likely would not enter college as a freshman this year and I'd probably hesitate period unless I thought I could graduate after fall term. And wait until the debate about K-12 heats up.
nwsm 6y ago
> From a strategic perspective, I can see universities like Harvard strengthening their brand by opening up more of their classes to the general public The most important part of Harvard's brand is the prestige of their exclusivity
brentis 6y ago
Exactly what I've said. Top 10 schools have tons of untapped brand equity they can unleash for 30% of on prem education. Get a premier remote education for $20k/yr or get state school with risk of Covid for $27k+....
nickbauman 6y ago
Maybe "Harvard is different" but a friend went back to school (Metro State U in MN) a few years ago to get his comp sci undergrad after practicing for over a decade professionally. They were trying out online learning for full time students for many intro and secondary classes for the major, saving only the most "keystone" classes for live lectures held weekly. The key thing was they required the students to respond to three questions for each class for each of the five days of the work week and those were graded. He loved this and excelled at it. He didn't want to sit in a lecture hall. The vast majority of the undergrads hated this and often blew off the questions. Many of them failed. Some A students were getting Cs. There was a revolt, the students were angry and they decided to ditch the online learning and go back to traditional classes...
JadeNB 6y ago
> I admire Harvard's transparency, although having a multi-billion-dollar endowment does make this decision easier for them than it would be for struggling institutions. I think a lot of this comes from their having waited until now to make a decision (which they feel comfortable doing because, as you say, they're sitting on a billion-dollar endowment). My university has been engaging in a lot of mixed messaging, but I think a lot of that came from feeling rushed to make a quick decision, not so much from an attempt to deceive people (although I'd be surprised if there weren't also some tacit understanding that it's easier to tell people what they want to hear now and change it later than it is to tell them to wait until later and then give bad news).
m0zg 6y ago
In a way, distance learning is a much more valuable skill though. Young people have this illusion that they go to college and in 4 years be "done" with learning. In STEM fields today that's simply not true. The learning doesn't end when you get a diploma, and college is just the beginning. Self-paced, asynchronous learning is where things are going to go, IMO. MOOCs aren't quite it, but they are a move in the right direction. Also from the page: > Tuition will remain as announced for the 2020-21 academic year. LOL. $50K/yr for a glorified MOOC.
takeda 6y ago
> FWIW, I personally think distance learning is underrated, although I have been doing it for years so I've had time to become accustomed to it. I can understand why some students (including my wife) do not like it, and may never like it. When I was a student after first time I took I immediately did not like it. Online courses should instead be called "study yourself" courses, because that's what they really are. In many cases teacher uses services where s/he doesn't even grade submissions. Why teacher is even needed, in fact why paying for the tuition, you could get almost the same experience by just purchasing a book and studying on your own. The online classes could be a better experience if teachers would have to actually teach.
moksly 6y ago
I work as an external examiner for CS students, and one year I was assigned first semester exams. To brush up my knowledge on freshmen CS stuff I completed the CS50x course from Harvard on EDX.org and I can easily say that it was taught so much better than my own freshman year in a Danish university. I wonder how much that plays into universities wanting to keep physical attendance. Once you go digital, you don’t really need a lot of lecturers. You still need someone to answer questions and mentor of course, but you could frankly have a handful of professors teaching the entire world.
andy9775 6y ago
> FWIW, I personally think distance learning is underrated, although I have been doing it for years so I've had time to become accustomed to it. I can understand why some students (including my wife) do not like it, and may never like it. I appreciate distance learning, it's the distance testing that doesn't work ;). We went online at the start of the year and while some classes were ok to evaluate online, classes which require coding for example, weren't. Since you have access to an IDE they tend to test other things than what was taught - it becomes more theoretical rather than practical even though the class demands the latter. A class would need to be fully changed to support online learning, and evaluating, say for example more focus on assignments.
rwmj 6y ago
Their endowment is $40 billion and they have 22,000 students (both figures from Google). That's about $2m per student, which is surely enough to offer free tuition to all undergrads from a small fraction of the interest payments?
SillaDeRuedas 6y ago
Just offer free tuition like in Europe and everything will be just fine.
- justinmeiners 6y ago
  You pay a larger percentage of income tax your entire life for this "free" benefit. You could argue the costs and outcomes are better, but it's not free. In addition Harvard is a private institution and not a government school.
owenshen24 6y ago
My friend who goes to USC says that this sort of bait-and-switch happened, with them updating their plans very close to the deadline when people had to make housing decisions.
ponker 6y ago
The thing is that Harvard’s actual instructor to student education is far worse than many universities like liberal arts colleges that focus on instruction. Nobel Laureates are just very hit or miss on teaching while colleges like Amherst or Reed or Davidson hire only for teaching skill. The reason you go to Harvard is for the name, and for what you get from other students — that when the next Mark Zuckerberg hires his first ten employees he’s looking to you, or when your college roommate is looking to hire a portfolio manager for his $700 million inheritance he feels that he can trust you because you did kegstands together. You’re not getting anything but the Harvard name in this model, and it’s uncomfortable for everyone involved to admit that it’s all about in-group signaling.
- panda888888 6y ago
  Seconding this comment. The quality of the undergraduate academic instruction at Harvard has a reputation for not being very good. I wish more people knew this. You'll get a better education if you go to a state school for undergrad and then Harvard for grad school.
  - ponker 6y ago
    I don't think you'll get a better education at a state school. The state school has hiring criteria similar to Harvard but at a lower bar. You'll get a better education at a four year teaching-focused college.
    - memexy 6y ago
      How do you know what the hiring bar is?
      - ponker 6y ago
        Because my academic friends have almost never gotten a top-tier private university (Ivy-class) without also getting state school offers but the reverse has happened many times.
jimmaswell 6y ago
Lab classes should at least be performed. It feels like the professors care more about alleviating 100% of their own personal risk than the thousands of students whose educations and livelihoods are on the line. Set up some plexiglass borders, open the windows, take some other precautions, but there has to be a tradeoff at some point in my opinion.
- alexbanks 6y ago
  I don't think high risk people should "consider the tradeoff" at all. Of course they're interested in alleviating their own personal risk...do you understand what's they're risking? Would you show up to work if you were 70, just because some students wanted to take bio?
  - jimmaswell 6y ago
    There's an old adage about planting trees you know you won't live to sit in the shade of, but unfortunately it's not a popular sentiment these days. Merely administering lab classes isn't even that risky. Doesn't even necessarily involve being in the same room at the same time. So yes, I'd show up and do what had to be done.
    - alexbanks 6y ago
      I think there's a kind of adorable naivety to equating planting a tree with administering a lab at an American college. If you yourself are conceding a professor "doesn't even necessarily involve being in the same room at the same time", then A.) Why does the professor even have to do it at all, as opposed to say, a young, not at risk grad student?, and B.) Does it really "need to be done" ? My professors were totally uninvolved from my labs. They would define them in advance, but each lab was administered by a grad student. Professors being uninvolved with labs isn't new or exciting.
wcchandler 6y ago
FYI: I work in higher ed. I take some classes for free as a benefit. It’s not a bait-and-switch at all. My employer had been completely transparent throughout this whole transition and has been more than welcoming and accepting of comments and criticism. I was actually asked for opinions on a class I took 2 years ago so they can normalize the criticism. My opinion as a student: I’m doing exceptionally well. Given the do-it-yourself pace I’m able to take a comfortable amount of time to answer questions. I’m genuinely understanding my questions. My instructor feels more accessible given that my only way of communicating is digitally. I’m honestly trying to get as many classes in as I can with this online format so I can benefit the most from it. If all the top 10% universities can offer online classes for free at DIY paces we’ll be so much better off. It’s one of the few ways we can emerge from this disaster better off as a society.

AgloeDreams 6y ago

It's Harvard. It doesn't matter how they accounted it, they have not changed the Tuition cost with this announcement so it's the same money and they are not hurting for students.

thspimpolds 6y ago
The average student at Harvard doesn't pay even close to actual tuition, most of the endowment is earmarked for student aid. If I remember right, something like under 90k earned by the student's family, they pay nothing. I haven't worked there in 2 years, so the math is a bit fuzzy but the concepts are accurate.
- huac 6y ago
  while most students do pay much less than sticker price, saying 'most of the endowment is earmarked for student aid' feels misleading. in fy2019 harvard spent $193M on student aid (https://finance.harvard.edu/files/fad/files/fy19_harvard_financial_report.pdf https://finance.harvard.edu/files/fad/files/fy19_harvard_fin...) -- compared to a $5.2B operating expense spend and a $41B endowment size.
  - brain5ide 6y ago
    A conservative 3% of endowment would be the expendable return. So about 1.2B? Wouldn't be surprised if 193M is the largest distinct chunk of that.
    - huac 6y ago
      they have other operating income, e.g. tuition from everyone else, and are consistently doing capital raises. the single largest chunk of spending goes to employee wages (approx $2B); in fact, the $193M number is the smallest of all the line items in operating expenses. as another comment points out, some of the salary and wage spend could be considered part of 'financial aid.'
  - tylerhou 6y ago
    Endowment paying operating expenses is essentially financial aid, because it's a cost that is not passed on to the students.
  - vonmoltke 6y ago
    > in fy2019 harvard spent $193M on student aid That is only undergraduate aid applied directly to tuition. Per Note 12 on page 43, "Total scholarships and other student awards" was $613,243k, of which $457,639K was in direct credits to expenses. That said, I don't know where the GP got the idea that most of the endowment is earmarked for financial aid. Per page 11, that earmark is specifically 19%.
- finolex1 6y ago
  Yes, but for the 50% of students that are not on financial aid, this must be pretty galling. These students may be rich, but a lot of them are not multimillionaire-rich. Even a family earning 200k a year will feel the pinch.
the_pwner224 6y ago
Many students would be much less willing to go to college if it was online only, and would instead take a gap year or do something else. If you can keep them hooked until after the tuition is billed and after the refund period expires, and then transition online, then you get that money which you would not otherwise get (now). This entire thing seems a bit like a conspiracy theory, but American universities are pretty greedy so idk. I've just accepted that I'm paying for the diploma so I personally won't mind if the classes are online for the same price - less time wasted in useless lectures, and I've already done much of the networking & connection building part of the experience in past years.

protomyth 6y ago

My understanding is a lot of universities are playing bait-and-switch, announcing unrealistic plans to reopen in the Fall in order to get deposits/tuition, but secretly knowing they'll be 'forced' to move everything online again. I don't know about big universities, but we (a small TCU - Tribal Community College) do expect to open in the fall. The problem is going to be if we see a spike or get directions from the federal, state, or tribal governments late in summer. The second problem a lot of people don't talk about is if the institution is accredited for 100% online courses. We got an exception that allowed for the summer, but we would need it extended into Fall. Being an accredited institution doesn't automatically mean you can teach 100% online courses.

goatherders 6y ago
Honest question: yesterday the US saw the most cases in a day since this started. If that doesnt constitute a spike then what does? Or is the planning more about anticipated levels 6 weeks from now as compared to now.
- protomyth 6y ago
  Those are national stats, and we are very rural. Plus, we have a whole set of problems that can make it worse if certain events happen. Add to that we've been under a travel ban for months which requires people to self quarantine at home for 14 days if they leave the state or go to certain cities. And yes, figuring out what is going to happen 6 weeks out is a problem.
- staplers 6y ago
  At this point we have seen cases dramatically spike, yet deaths have not. I think if/when we see deaths start spiking, then the decision to force closures will start happening.
  - latchkey 6y ago
    Simpson's Paradox. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebEkn-BiW5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebEkn-BiW5k

formercoder 6y ago

Why would opening up Harvard’s instruction to more of the genera public help their brand? They operate on a scarcity basis.

asdff 6y ago
Because it's Harvard's network and not the lectures that make the brand.
- grogenaut 6y ago
  Without being on campus and making friends / contacts with these people how is the brand useful? "Oh man that looks like dilhead3112 from my M&A, I thought e worked here and that is definitely their green poomoji face, we should go talk to him! Probbably saved this company!" But seriously if their brand is networking, having a tight well filtered network I think would be a lot better for them. And if no one meets in person isn't that also bad for their brand? Everyone essentially becomes 2nd contacts (via harvard) on linked in.
  - asdff 6y ago
    Campus will be back the year after.
    - grogenaut 6y ago
      Then what's the point of expanding to online beyond the capacity of their campus to support next year (beyond typical attrition)?
ralmidani 6y ago
Harvard divides its credentials into "tiers", if you will. There are students who go through the competitive admissions process, and there's the Extension School which is basically open enrollment, even if you want to take courses for-credit. You only have to apply if you want to pursue a full Bachelors or Masters, and even then you're given the chance to prove yourself by doing good in a handful of courses. I personally never thought I could experience Harvard before I found out that CS50 (and tons of other CS courses) could be taken for-credit and even lead to a degree. Harvard also has online-only, non-credit programs like Harvard Business Online (formerly HBX) and HMX (Medical courses). Harvard can, and does, strengthen its brand by opening itself to the public. There's a huge spectrum between being a totally-closed institution and being completely open enrollment.

mmm_grayons 6y ago

Opening up to a larger group of students will weaken Harvard's brand. Many of these top institutions are valuable because rich, well-connected people go there, so going there allows one to meet them. There are companies where it is an unspoken rule that they hire only from Harvard, law offices that recruit only from Yale, etc.

ralmidani 6y ago
I doubt "Harvard-only" companies and "Yale-only" law firms of any considerable size exist. Sure, 3 Harvard friends might start a company, or 4 Yale lawyers may start a firm, but eventually they will have to venture outside their bubble. If you have evidence of an organization with, say, 35+ employees maintaining that kind of exclusivity, please post a link.

dicomdan 6y ago

Students will still be on campus, while teaching is done online. Sounds like a win win for students who get to interact with their peers, and professors who get to stay safe.

Octoth0rpe 6y ago
It sounds like a win for Harvard's residency fees and that's about it.
therealcamino 6y ago
Up to 40% of students will be on campus. Priority to freshmen in the fall and seniors in the spring.

goatinaboat 6y ago

I personally think distance learning is underrated, although I have been doing it for years so I've had time to become accustomed to it. I can understand why some students (including my wife) do not like it, and may never like it. The ingestion of facts is actually only a minor part of the college experience. Exploring concepts with your peers in organised and ad-hoc groups is a huge, huge part. Not to mention if you go to a name-brand college like Harvard the networking opportunities, and at every college, the social side and the experience of living away from home for the first time. It is absolutely not worth paying the tuition at Harvard to get what you could get on EdX or Coursera.

unethical_ban 6y ago

I cannot comment fully on remote learning - I haven't done it in a way that is "forced", in other words, being held to account by studying and taking exams and having remote sessions with TAs, etc. I am having a hard enough time focusing on remote work, and I am being held to account daily. Also recall that the University is, among many other things, a social and growing experience that provides expansion of the mind, a new location to experience the world away from home, and an opportunity to build social networks and connections for friends and work. It also fulfills the mission, hopefully, of a well rounded education in civics, arts and sciences, and your field of expertise. I therefore understand the drive to do as much as possible to provide some of that, and it is telling they give Freshmen and Seniors the priority (to experience campus life, and to say goodbye and push through, respectively). We hope this will only last until mid 2021. Philosophers and leaders need to be thinking about what the world may need to look like when this happens to us again.

peruvian 6y ago

Aren't endowments for elite colleges mostly tied up in hedge funds or real estate to make them even bigger? Weird for me that they could have billions in the bank and still ask for tuition.

notatoad 6y ago
>Weird for me that they could have billions in the bank and still ask for tuition. if you make something free, people don't value it. Harvard has a lot of financial aid for students who legitimately can't afford the tuition, and charges a lot for students who can.
Finnucane 6y ago
Sure, they’re managed investment funds. You couldn’t run a university just on the income from bank interest. Also, most endowment funds are not unrestricted. Donors often attach strings to what can be done with the money; it’s donated for specific purposes. Harvard is even more restricted in a way because each school has its own endowment. FAS (most undergraduates) has the biggest, but they can only spend their own money. Also, income from the endowment doesn’t cover the whole cost of operating the university. Harvard is actually managing a little better than they did in 2008. When Larry Summers was president, he made some skeezy deals to finance the Allston campus expansion, and it went way bad when the market collapsed. Now they do have some emergency cash set aside.

geophile 6y ago

The pandemic is particularly challenging for a school like Harvard, as it makes the implicit thing obvious: a prestige school like Harvard is about the social connections far more than the education. If you get one semester on campus, maybe, then what’s the point? You can get an online education anywhere, for far less money.

jedberg 6y ago
Harvard is fairly cheap to attend, less than a state school for most, and free if your parents make under $65K. They were forced to do that a few years ago so the government wouldn't start taxing their endowment. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/123014/what-harvard-actually-costs.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/12301...
- vmception 6y ago
  "but fuck you if your parents had good jobs but not enough for a trust fund at no fault of your own"
  - MiroF 6y ago
    Not fuck you, just pay what you can? Harvard is extremely affordable - like among the most affordable of any school.
    - vmception 6y ago
      By the time I was applying for colleges, my parents made around $250,000 combined, which went to mortgages and other expenses, including retirement plans. I was therefore not eligible for any FAFSA loans, as they do not factor in zip code, cost of living, the kinds of assets or liabilities anyone has, nor inflation. Affordable, to me, was in-state tuition at $3,000 per semester at a state school, with a few community college classes. This was mixed with scholarships, and my parents subsidizing books and on campus living some semesters as that could more than double the cost of tuition. Are you saying that Harvard could have arbitrarily and unilaterally spit out a number close to that? And routinely does for people whose parents make more than $65,000? My comp sci degree has the same utility as anyone else that didn't go to Ivy League / Stanford.

e40 6y ago

My understanding is a lot of universities are playing bait-and-switch, announcing unrealistic plans to reopen in the Fall in order to get deposits/tuition Yes, they are. You nailed this. UCSD forced my son to choose classes at the beginning of June, with the selection being in two piles: in-person and remote. He called their bluff and chose remote. I will say that UCSD had really crappy online classes, according to my son's experience. He didn't like it at all. I think he would prefer well-run remote classes, but many of the professors were just terrible at it.

noddingham 6y ago

I'm not sure your anecdote matches the reality that for traditional college-aged students, remote/online/distance learning yields a poorer result. There's a lot of maturity that has to exist prior to enrolling in online courses that the majority of traditional students don't yet possess. [1][2][3] Calling plans to reopen 'bait-and-switch' is a bit unfair. I sincerely hope you don't think campus administrators are sitting in backrooms with dollar signs in their eyes thinking about 'pulling one over' on all these students and their families. [1] https://www.brookings.edu/research/who-should-take-online-courses/ https://www.brookings.edu/research/who-should-take-online-co... [2]https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2020/03/23/how-effective-is-online-learning-what-the.html https://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2020/03/23/how-effective-... [3] https://www.al.com/news/2020/07/tuscaloosa-students-held-parties-bet-on-who-got-coronavirus-first.html https://www.al.com/news/2020/07/tuscaloosa-students-held-par...

colechristensen 6y ago
There are also many many soft skills and experiences you get at a proper university which you aren't going to get through zoom. In fact, it's not too much of an exaggeration to say that the things you learn out of books and are tested on are secondary to everything else you learn and experience at university.
ghaff 6y ago
Basically, schools and school systems (and students/parents) at almost all levels of education are being forced to make decisions between alternatives that are mostly pretty crappy across multiple dimensions, won't be easy to pull back once they get moving, in conditions of extreme uncertainty. If financially viable to do so, I likely would not enter college as a freshman this year and I'd probably hesitate period unless I thought I could graduate after fall term. And wait until the debate about K-12 heats up.

nwsm 6y ago

> From a strategic perspective, I can see universities like Harvard strengthening their brand by opening up more of their classes to the general public The most important part of Harvard's brand is the prestige of their exclusivity

brentis 6y ago

Exactly what I've said. Top 10 schools have tons of untapped brand equity they can unleash for 30% of on prem education. Get a premier remote education for $20k/yr or get state school with risk of Covid for $27k+....

nickbauman 6y ago

Maybe "Harvard is different" but a friend went back to school (Metro State U in MN) a few years ago to get his comp sci undergrad after practicing for over a decade professionally. They were trying out online learning for full time students for many intro and secondary classes for the major, saving only the most "keystone" classes for live lectures held weekly. The key thing was they required the students to respond to three questions for each class for each of the five days of the work week and those were graded. He loved this and excelled at it. He didn't want to sit in a lecture hall. The vast majority of the undergrads hated this and often blew off the questions. Many of them failed. Some A students were getting Cs. There was a revolt, the students were angry and they decided to ditch the online learning and go back to traditional classes...

JadeNB 6y ago

> I admire Harvard's transparency, although having a multi-billion-dollar endowment does make this decision easier for them than it would be for struggling institutions. I think a lot of this comes from their having waited until now to make a decision (which they feel comfortable doing because, as you say, they're sitting on a billion-dollar endowment). My university has been engaging in a lot of mixed messaging, but I think a lot of that came from feeling rushed to make a quick decision, not so much from an attempt to deceive people (although I'd be surprised if there weren't also some tacit understanding that it's easier to tell people what they want to hear now and change it later than it is to tell them to wait until later and then give bad news).

m0zg 6y ago

In a way, distance learning is a much more valuable skill though. Young people have this illusion that they go to college and in 4 years be "done" with learning. In STEM fields today that's simply not true. The learning doesn't end when you get a diploma, and college is just the beginning. Self-paced, asynchronous learning is where things are going to go, IMO. MOOCs aren't quite it, but they are a move in the right direction. Also from the page: > Tuition will remain as announced for the 2020-21 academic year. LOL. $50K/yr for a glorified MOOC.

takeda 6y ago

> FWIW, I personally think distance learning is underrated, although I have been doing it for years so I've had time to become accustomed to it. I can understand why some students (including my wife) do not like it, and may never like it. When I was a student after first time I took I immediately did not like it. Online courses should instead be called "study yourself" courses, because that's what they really are. In many cases teacher uses services where s/he doesn't even grade submissions. Why teacher is even needed, in fact why paying for the tuition, you could get almost the same experience by just purchasing a book and studying on your own. The online classes could be a better experience if teachers would have to actually teach.

moksly 6y ago

I work as an external examiner for CS students, and one year I was assigned first semester exams. To brush up my knowledge on freshmen CS stuff I completed the CS50x course from Harvard on EDX.org and I can easily say that it was taught so much better than my own freshman year in a Danish university. I wonder how much that plays into universities wanting to keep physical attendance. Once you go digital, you don’t really need a lot of lecturers. You still need someone to answer questions and mentor of course, but you could frankly have a handful of professors teaching the entire world.

andy9775 6y ago

> FWIW, I personally think distance learning is underrated, although I have been doing it for years so I've had time to become accustomed to it. I can understand why some students (including my wife) do not like it, and may never like it. I appreciate distance learning, it's the distance testing that doesn't work ;). We went online at the start of the year and while some classes were ok to evaluate online, classes which require coding for example, weren't. Since you have access to an IDE they tend to test other things than what was taught - it becomes more theoretical rather than practical even though the class demands the latter. A class would need to be fully changed to support online learning, and evaluating, say for example more focus on assignments.

rwmj 6y ago

Their endowment is $40 billion and they have 22,000 students (both figures from Google). That's about $2m per student, which is surely enough to offer free tuition to all undergrads from a small fraction of the interest payments?

SillaDeRuedas 6y ago

Just offer free tuition like in Europe and everything will be just fine.

justinmeiners 6y ago
You pay a larger percentage of income tax your entire life for this "free" benefit. You could argue the costs and outcomes are better, but it's not free. In addition Harvard is a private institution and not a government school.

owenshen24 6y ago

My friend who goes to USC says that this sort of bait-and-switch happened, with them updating their plans very close to the deadline when people had to make housing decisions.

ponker 6y ago

The thing is that Harvard’s actual instructor to student education is far worse than many universities like liberal arts colleges that focus on instruction. Nobel Laureates are just very hit or miss on teaching while colleges like Amherst or Reed or Davidson hire only for teaching skill. The reason you go to Harvard is for the name, and for what you get from other students — that when the next Mark Zuckerberg hires his first ten employees he’s looking to you, or when your college roommate is looking to hire a portfolio manager for his $700 million inheritance he feels that he can trust you because you did kegstands together. You’re not getting anything but the Harvard name in this model, and it’s uncomfortable for everyone involved to admit that it’s all about in-group signaling.

panda888888 6y ago
Seconding this comment. The quality of the undergraduate academic instruction at Harvard has a reputation for not being very good. I wish more people knew this. You'll get a better education if you go to a state school for undergrad and then Harvard for grad school.
- ponker 6y ago
  I don't think you'll get a better education at a state school. The state school has hiring criteria similar to Harvard but at a lower bar. You'll get a better education at a four year teaching-focused college.
  - memexy 6y ago
    How do you know what the hiring bar is?
    - ponker 6y ago
      Because my academic friends have almost never gotten a top-tier private university (Ivy-class) without also getting state school offers but the reverse has happened many times.

jimmaswell 6y ago

Lab classes should at least be performed. It feels like the professors care more about alleviating 100% of their own personal risk than the thousands of students whose educations and livelihoods are on the line. Set up some plexiglass borders, open the windows, take some other precautions, but there has to be a tradeoff at some point in my opinion.

alexbanks 6y ago
I don't think high risk people should "consider the tradeoff" at all. Of course they're interested in alleviating their own personal risk...do you understand what's they're risking? Would you show up to work if you were 70, just because some students wanted to take bio?
- jimmaswell 6y ago
  There's an old adage about planting trees you know you won't live to sit in the shade of, but unfortunately it's not a popular sentiment these days. Merely administering lab classes isn't even that risky. Doesn't even necessarily involve being in the same room at the same time. So yes, I'd show up and do what had to be done.
  - alexbanks 6y ago
    I think there's a kind of adorable naivety to equating planting a tree with administering a lab at an American college. If you yourself are conceding a professor "doesn't even necessarily involve being in the same room at the same time", then A.) Why does the professor even have to do it at all, as opposed to say, a young, not at risk grad student?, and B.) Does it really "need to be done" ? My professors were totally uninvolved from my labs. They would define them in advance, but each lab was administered by a grad student. Professors being uninvolved with labs isn't new or exciting.

wcchandler 6y ago

FYI: I work in higher ed. I take some classes for free as a benefit. It’s not a bait-and-switch at all. My employer had been completely transparent throughout this whole transition and has been more than welcoming and accepting of comments and criticism. I was actually asked for opinions on a class I took 2 years ago so they can normalize the criticism. My opinion as a student: I’m doing exceptionally well. Given the do-it-yourself pace I’m able to take a comfortable amount of time to answer questions. I’m genuinely understanding my questions. My instructor feels more accessible given that my only way of communicating is digitally. I’m honestly trying to get as many classes in as I can with this online format so I can benefit the most from it. If all the top 10% universities can offer online classes for free at DIY paces we’ll be so much better off. It’s one of the few ways we can emerge from this disaster better off as a society.